Re: tool for installing pin in PCB extractors?

[Mike Stein]

- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck Guzis" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts" 

Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2015 1:20 AM
Subject: Re: tool for installing pin in PCB 
extractors?




On 10/24/2015 09:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
What tool does one use to install the metal pin 
into a plastic PCB
extractor, e.g., the Bivar CP-36 or Keystone 
8642?


There are expensive tools for the purpose, but 
I've always just used a pair of long-nose pliers 
to compress the end of the spring pin slightly 
to get it started, then drive it home with a 
soft-faced mallet.  Make sure that the body of 
the extractor is supported.


To remove, an appropriately-sized roll pin punch 
works just fine without mangling things.


YMMV,
--Chuck


A small vise always works for me.

m 

Re: tool for installing pin in PCB extractors?

[Tothwolf]

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 10/24/2015 09:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote:


What tool does one use to install the metal pin into a plastic PCB
extractor, e.g., the Bivar CP-36 or Keystone 8642?


There are expensive tools for the purpose, but I've always just used a pair 
of long-nose pliers to compress the end of the spring pin slightly to get it 
started, then drive it home with a soft-faced mallet.  Make sure that the 
body of the extractor is supported.


To remove, an appropriately-sized roll pin punch works just fine without 
mangling things.


I have a small pair of specialty pliers which were made to install roll 
pins in relays which work equally well for this. Another tool I've used in 
the past is a really small c-clamp.


I don't know if anyone else has tried them yet, but I recently discovered 
that Richco/Essentra also makes card ejectors/extractors.

http://us.essentracomponents.com/shop/en-US/essentracomponentsus/pcb---electronics-hardware-44556--1/card-guides---pullers-75066--1/card-ejectors--extractors---pullers-132571--1

Re: tool for installing pin in PCB extractors?

[Eric Smith]

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 11:20 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> There are expensive tools for the purpose, but I've always just used a pair
> of long-nose pliers to compress the end of the spring pin slightly to get it
> started, then drive it home with a soft-faced mallet.  Make sure that the
> body of the extractor is supported.

Sounds easy. I'll give it a try. Thanks!

I found an insertion tool from B & M Machine Co. for $58.90:
http://bmmachine.com/pintool/product
but if your technique works for me, I'd just as soon not spend the $58.90.

Re: Oddball question: really small terminals

[Mike Ross]

On Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 4:10 PM, Cindy Croxton  wrote:
> How small is "really small"? IBM made a terminal with a 5" screen for the 
> 4704 banking systems. http://frente-cajas.blogspot.com/
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross
> Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 8:55 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals
>
> For reasons too abstruse to explain in detail I'm on the lookout for
> terminals that are, physically, really small - especially serial and
> coax 3270, and possibly twinax 5250.

5" might be a bit small even for me! The 9" version looks pretty close
to that kind of thing I have in mind except:

1. The 9" unit is just the display; the terminal logic itself is
another box, just as big.
2. It's a 4700 series system, which AFAIK uses its own strange
protocols; it's not 3270 or VT100 compatible or ANSI serial.

But on the right lines... thanks!

Small computers running DOS aren't what I had in mind, neither are
single line displays :-)

This is along the right lines, although it's a TCP/IP network device
without serial or 3270 ports for direct connection, and it doesn't
have a screen:

http://www.axel.com/uk/id_M75.html

The 3488 was the IBM 'terminal in a pizza box I was thinking of:

http://store.flagshiptech.com/ibm-infowindow-ii-3488-v-twinax-terminal-base-t-conn-122-keyboard-no-monitor/

But's it's Twinax; can anyone remember the number of the coax 3270 equivalent??

My *ideal* device would be something like a 10" or 12" LCD panel with
terminal logic built-in: power connector, 3270 or serial port, and a
PS/2 or USB keyboard port. A terminal you can hang on the wall. Cable
it up, hang it on the wall, away you go... if I can find something
along those lines I'll take a dozen :)

Thanks

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: tool for installing pin in PCB extractors?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/24/2015 09:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

What tool does one use to install the metal pin into a plastic PCB
extractor, e.g., the Bivar CP-36 or Keystone 8642?


There are expensive tools for the purpose, but I've always just used a 
pair of long-nose pliers to compress the end of the spring pin slightly 
to get it started, then drive it home with a soft-faced mallet.  Make 
sure that the body of the extractor is supported.


To remove, an appropriately-sized roll pin punch works just fine without 
mangling things.


YMMV,
--Chuck

Re: Miniscribe "bricks" (was Re: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas?)

[Eric Smith]

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Tom Gardner  wrote:
> The MiniScribe brick story is told at:
> http://chmhdd.wikifoundry.com/page/MiniScribe+files+bancruptcy
>
> The apocryphal tale is that when the Maxtor President visited his then
> recently acquired MiniScribe facilities he was shown buildings 1,2, 3, and
> 5.  When asked what happened to building 4 he was told, "we shipped it brick
> by brick."

The actual story is almost as good. Employees broke into the auditor's
files and changed the numbers in an attempt to conceal the "inventory
hole". Miniscribe CFO Patrick J. Schleibaum was convicted based in
part on an invoice showing that the bricks were purchased from
Colorado Brick Company. Quentin T. Wiles, the chairman and CEO (and
"turnaround specialist"), was also convicted and spent 2 1/2 years in
the Big House.

http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/osg/briefs/1996/01/01/w961430w.txt
http://openjurist.org/102/f3d/1043/united-states-v-t-wiles
https://www.sec.gov/about/annual_report/1991.pdf
http://articles.latimes.com/1994-07-12/business/fi-14736_1_sherman-oaks
http://www.sbrower.com/Steven%20Brower%20-%20Recent%20Developments%20In%20Computer%20Performance%20Litigation.htm

One possible lesson to be learned: always pay cash when buying
materials for inventory fraud.

Re: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/24/2015 09:06 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote:



Fascinating -- I didn't know there were AC and DC magnetic fields.
How strong is "very strong", and would the library device I mentioned
count toward "an AC erase"? Should I assume that just doing an AC
erase would be insufficient?


The AC unit I use is a VHS tape bulk eraser.  It's pretty strong and has 
a limited working time--maybe 2-3 minutes before the thermal cutout 
interrupts.  Let it cool for a few minutes and get back to work.


How strong a DC erase?  I suppose that one of these magnets could well 
lift a 100 lbs.  Scary strong.


--Chuck

tool for installing pin in PCB extractors?

[Eric Smith]

What tool does one use to install the metal pin into a plastic PCB
extractor, e.g., the Bivar CP-36 or Keystone 8642?

I don't yet have any uninstalled extractors on hand, but I'm going to
need some for a project. Looking at PCBs with extractors already
installed has not made it obvious to me how to install them.

Re: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer)

[Eric Christopherson]

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 9:14 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote:
>
>> I know Chuck Guzis has written about this, but I don't see that he's done
>> so publicly in the last few years, so I thought I'd ask here about his and
>> others' views on the perennial question of whether (some) 3.5" DSHD disks
>> can be reliably used in DSDD-only drives. The oft-repeated claim is that
>> writing can appear to work just fine, but that even a few months later
>> read
>> errors will occur.
>>
>
> That was certainly the case with 5.25", but THAT was a difference between
> 300 Oersted and 600 Oersted.  WAY OFF.
>
> But, with 3.5" disks, the difference is between 600 Oersted and 720?
> Oersted.  THAT is close enough.
>
> For BEST results, I think that it would be better to use the right ones,
> but unlike 5.25" disks, with 3.5", you can get away with it.
>
> Elsewhere on the page (I don't recall now if it was Herb or Chuck that said
>> it) it was conjectured that HD disks that have never been formatted as HD,
>> -OR- disks that have gone through a good degaussing, will have better luck
>> retaining data. What does everyone think about this? And would an
>> electromagnetic library security system (the kind that's like a tube
>> through which checked-out materials are put; often with a caution not to
>> put tapes or floppies through it) be a suitable degausser?
>>
>
> Probably a very good idea.
>

OK. I just wanted to ask, in case running a floppy through that contraption
would actually mess up its magnetization so badly that it couldn't then be
used.


>
> Some Windoze machines will check for existing format before formatting,
> and be somewhat uncooperative about reformatting as a different density.
>
> The one time that it is critically important to bulk-erase or use virgin
> disks is when writing 48tpi disks in a 96tpi drive.  When a 96tpi drive
> RE-writes a 48tpi disk, as 48tpi, it can not clear the edges of the track
> completely.
>
>
> Are we really running short of "720K" floppies?
> I thought that AOHell had sent out enough snail spam with disks to supply
> us forever!
>

I had to laugh at that. Another list member recently told me that AOL disks
are the ones he's had the most success with recently. I don't know how many
of them were 720KB, though. In any case, I think I only started getting AOL
dis(c|k)s in the CD-ROM era, unfortunately.

But anyway, it does look like DD disks are more expensive; that, coupled
with the fact that a lot of HD disks in the wild are going to be newer,
makes me want to buy some HD ones instead. But that second part might be
more of a bad thing, if it's true that floppy QA went downhill later on.


On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> My opinions on Herb's retrotechnology site still hold--with one addition.
>

Thanks for that.


>
> You can sometimes get 3.5" HD disks that have been used, but now refuse to
> accept a format by first performing a DC erase.  That is, get a very strong
> rare-earth magnet, and moving in a helical path (i.e. circular, starting
> close to the disc, slowing moving away), perform an erase pass. Following
> with an AC erase can sometime inject new life into the disk. I've tried
> this several times and it does seem to work.
>

Fascinating -- I didn't know there were AC and DC magnetic fields. How
strong is "very strong", and would the library device I mentioned count
toward "an AC erase"? Should I assume that just doing an AC erase would be
insufficient?

-- 
Eric Christopherson

Re: Oddball question: really small terminals

[COURYHOUSE]

yes we have one line LED  letter terminals used for Deaf and hard of  
Hearing.

we will buy more of them too. do you have any of them?
ASCII or BAUDOT either for our  Deaf Telecom diaplay.
 
Drop me a line offlist  thanks  Ed Sharpe  archivist   for SMECC
 
 
In a message dated 10/24/2015 8:44:59 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
charles.unix@gmail.com writes:

On Sat,  Oct 24, 2015 at 8:39 PM, Alexandre Souza  <
alexandre.tabaj...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 16 char x 1 line  is small enough? :)
> Em 25/10/2015 01:34, "Chuck Guzis"   escreveu:
>
> > On 10/24/2015 08:10  PM, Cindy Croxton wrote:
> >
> >> How small is "really  small"? IBM made a terminal with a 5" screen for
> >> the 4704  banking systems. http://frente-cajas.blogspot.com/
> >>
>  >
> > I've got one with a 64 character 1-line LED display.   Is that small
> enough?
> >
> > --Chuck
>  >
> >
>

Set the baud rate really low and tie an LED  to the xmit line.

--  Charles

Re: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/24/2015 06:59 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote:

I know Chuck Guzis has written about this, but I don't see that he's done
so publicly in the last few years, so I thought I'd ask here about his and
others' views on the perennial question of whether (some) 3.5" DSHD disks
can be reliably used in DSDD-only drives. The oft-repeated claim is that
writing can appear to work just fine, but that even a few months later read
errors will occur.


My opinions on Herb's retrotechnology site still hold--with one addition.

You can sometimes get 3.5" HD disks that have been used, but now refuse 
to accept a format by first performing a DC erase.  That is, get a very 
strong rare-earth magnet, and moving in a helical path (i.e. circular, 
starting close to the disc, slowing moving away), perform an erase pass. 
Following with an AC erase can sometime inject new life into the disk. 
I've tried this several times and it does seem to work.


As Fred mentioned, the "write them now, but not read them later" case 
applies to HD 5.25" disks written in DD mode.  But even that's not a 
sure thing.  I've handled batches of DD-written 3M HD floppies that were 
more than 20 years old and they read fine.


I've never tried DD writing onto ED floppies.  I suspect that it won't 
work at all.  The coating characteristics are just too different.


--Chuck

Re: Oddball question: really small terminals

[Charles Anthony]

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 8:39 PM, Alexandre Souza <
alexandre.tabaj...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 16 char x 1 line is small enough? :)
> Em 25/10/2015 01:34, "Chuck Guzis"  escreveu:
>
> > On 10/24/2015 08:10 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote:
> >
> >> How small is "really small"? IBM made a terminal with a 5" screen for
> >> the 4704 banking systems. http://frente-cajas.blogspot.com/
> >>
> >
> > I've got one with a 64 character 1-line LED display.  Is that small
> enough?
> >
> > --Chuck
> >
> >
>

Set the baud rate really low and tie an LED to the xmit line.

-- Charles

Re: Oddball question: really small terminals

[Alexandre Souza]

16 char x 1 line is small enough? :)
Em 25/10/2015 01:34, "Chuck Guzis"  escreveu:

> On 10/24/2015 08:10 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote:
>
>> How small is "really small"? IBM made a terminal with a 5" screen for
>> the 4704 banking systems. http://frente-cajas.blogspot.com/
>>
>
> I've got one with a 64 character 1-line LED display.  Is that small enough?
>
> --Chuck
>
>

Re: Oddball question: really small terminals

[Fred Cisin]

The Epson RC-20 wrist watch (30 years ago) had serial port, RAM, ROM, 
and sort of a Z80.


But, nobody ever brought up CP/M on it.

Re: Oddball question: really small terminals

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/24/2015 08:10 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote:

How small is "really small"? IBM made a terminal with a 5" screen for
the 4704 banking systems. http://frente-cajas.blogspot.com/


I've got one with a 64 character 1-line LED display.  Is that small enough?

--Chuck

RE: Oddball question: really small terminals

[Fred Cisin]

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Cindy Croxton wrote:
How small is "really small"? IBM made a terminal with a 5" screen for 
the 4704 banking systems. http://frente-cajas.blogspot.com/


And the Atari Portfolio runs a version of DR-DOS.
And the Poqet ran MS-DOS.

Both have serial ports available.
Both will run DOS software, including most of the undocumented calls, such 
as TSRs.

Either can function as a terminal.

RE: Oddball question: really small terminals

[Cindy Croxton]

How small is "really small"? IBM made a terminal with a 5" screen for the 4704 
banking systems. http://frente-cajas.blogspot.com/


-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 8:55 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Oddball question: really small terminals

For reasons too abstruse to explain in detail I'm on the lookout for
terminals that are, physically, really small - especially serial and
coax 3270, and possibly twinax 5250.

Yes you could do things with small laptops and PDAs with PCMCIA cards
and adapters and software - I know a guy who kept a Psion Organizer
configured especially for use as a terminal with SGI boxes. But that's
Not The Same, and NOT what I'm after; I want dedicated purpose-built
terminals; switch it on and It Works.

And both DEC and IBM made 'real' terminals in a 'small pizza box' form
factor, using a separate standard VGA monitor as a display; one could
use those with a small LCD screen and achieve a similar result, and I
might do just that - can anyone remember the model numbers of IBM 3270
and 5250 terminals that were built this way?

But really I'd prefer a compact all-in one solution; a one-piece
terminal. Any suggestions? I'm open to both LCDs and *small* CRTs.
Preferably colour!

Thanks

Mike


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer)

[Fred Cisin]

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote:

I know Chuck Guzis has written about this, but I don't see that he's done
so publicly in the last few years, so I thought I'd ask here about his and
others' views on the perennial question of whether (some) 3.5" DSHD disks
can be reliably used in DSDD-only drives. The oft-repeated claim is that
writing can appear to work just fine, but that even a few months later read
errors will occur.


That was certainly the case with 5.25", but THAT was a difference between 
300 Oersted and 600 Oersted.  WAY OFF.


But, with 3.5" disks, the difference is between 600 Oersted and 720? 
Oersted.  THAT is close enough.


For BEST results, I think that it would be better to use the right ones, 
but unlike 5.25" disks, with 3.5", you can get away with it.



Elsewhere on the page (I don't recall now if it was Herb or Chuck that said
it) it was conjectured that HD disks that have never been formatted as HD,
-OR- disks that have gone through a good degaussing, will have better luck
retaining data. What does everyone think about this? And would an
electromagnetic library security system (the kind that's like a tube
through which checked-out materials are put; often with a caution not to
put tapes or floppies through it) be a suitable degausser?


Probably a very good idea.

Some Windoze machines will check for existing format before formatting, 
and be somewhat uncooperative about reformatting as a different density.


The one time that it is critically important to bulk-erase or use virgin 
disks is when writing 48tpi disks in a 96tpi drive.  When a 96tpi drive 
RE-writes a 48tpi disk, as 48tpi, it can not clear the edges of the track 
completely.



Are we really running short of "720K" floppies?
I thought that AOHell had sent out enough snail spam with disks to supply 
us forever!

Substituting DSHD for DSDD disks (or DS2D if you prefer)

[Eric Christopherson]

I know Chuck Guzis has written about this, but I don't see that he's done
so publicly in the last few years, so I thought I'd ask here about his and
others' views on the perennial question of whether (some) 3.5" DSHD disks
can be reliably used in DSDD-only drives. The oft-repeated claim is that
writing can appear to work just fine, but that even a few months later read
errors will occur.

On  Chuck was quoted
as (actually, correct me if I'm wrong -- it's a little hard to be sure this
was Chuck's words) as saying "Usually, they're just fine, with the error
rate approximately the same, whether or not 2D or HD media was used." Just
before that, he said  "I think that the overall quality of DSHD 3.5" media
isn't what it used to be, so that might contribute to the general
impression that 3.5" HD diskettes used as 2D aren't reliable. I have
problems enough finding reliable 3.5" DSHD floppies used as such." Chuck et
al., what's your feeling now, both on the overall reliability of HD disks
in DD drives, and on whether it depends on how recently the disks were
produced?

Elsewhere on the page (I don't recall now if it was Herb or Chuck that said
it) it was conjectured that HD disks that have never been formatted as HD,
-OR- disks that have gone through a good degaussing, will have better luck
retaining data. What does everyone think about this? And would an
electromagnetic library security system (the kind that's like a tube
through which checked-out materials are put; often with a caution not to
put tapes or floppies through it) be a suitable degausser?

-- 
Eric Christopherson

Re: Retro Reproduction.

[Jon Elson]

On 10/24/2015 08:01 PM, geneb wrote:


I wouldn't mind finding step-by-step instructions on how 
to refit a 2000 model year MaxNC 10 open loop mill.  The 
controller it has now is parallel port based and the 
control software is DOS only.


Well, this is a stepper-driven machine?  Are the stepper 
drives in good condition, and are they good units?
Stepper drives have come a long way since 2000.  Gecko 
stepper drives are pretty amazing.


You can run stepper drivers from the parallel port, but the 
performance may be less that optimum.  I make a board that 
generates steps in hardware that gives more accurate step 
timing at higher speeds, and also allows closed-loop 
operation if you fit encoders to the machine.  This is all 
supported by the LinuxCNC program, which is pretty 
fantastic.  I use it here in my shop to run a Bridgeport 
mill with my own servo drives.  I also have a desktop mill 
that I built mostly for taking to shows that uses my 
controllers and drives.


You can check out the LinuxCNC.org web site, and see what 
others are doing in the retrofit area.


Jon

Oddball question: really small terminals

[Mike Ross]

For reasons too abstruse to explain in detail I'm on the lookout for
terminals that are, physically, really small - especially serial and
coax 3270, and possibly twinax 5250.

Yes you could do things with small laptops and PDAs with PCMCIA cards
and adapters and software - I know a guy who kept a Psion Organizer
configured especially for use as a terminal with SGI boxes. But that's
Not The Same, and NOT what I'm after; I want dedicated purpose-built
terminals; switch it on and It Works.

And both DEC and IBM made 'real' terminals in a 'small pizza box' form
factor, using a separate standard VGA monitor as a display; one could
use those with a small LCD screen and achieve a similar result, and I
might do just that - can anyone remember the model numbers of IBM 3270
and 5250 terminals that were built this way?

But really I'd prefer a compact all-in one solution; a one-piece
terminal. Any suggestions? I'm open to both LCDs and *small* CRTs.
Preferably colour!

Thanks

Mike

Re: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732

[Mike Stein]

Probably a silly question, but I assume that if 
you're using a 28-pin socket you are inserting it 
aligned at the end *opposite* pin 1, with pin 
numbers offset by 2 (ie. 2x32 pin1 is 2764/256 pin 
3, etc.)?


m


- Original Message - 
From: "Adrian Graham" 

To: ; "General Discussion: 
On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 


Sent: Saturday, October 24, 2015 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 
2332/2532/2732







On 24/10/2015 19:18, "John Robertson" 
 wrote:



On 10/24/2015 5:43 AM, Adrian Graham wrote:

Hi folks,

PET4032 repair continues with all ROMs, video 
RAM and dodgy sockets removed
thanks to a hot air gun. Holes cleaned and I 
have new turned pin sockets for
everything I've removed which I'll be fitting 
this afternoon.


Since the ROMs came out OK I'm trying to dump 
them using my Pinmaster48
programmer, being from the 90s it doesn't read 
2332/2532 PROMs but it WILL
read a lot of variants of 2732 so I've made an 
adapter as found thanks to

google and USENET:

2332 pin 18 to 2732 pin 21 (A11)
2332 pin 20 to 2732 pin 18 (Chip enable/Power 
Down)
2332 pin 21 to 2732 pins 20 and 24 via diodes 
with banding at the 2332 end

(2332 Vpp)

Wiring checks out and the diodes are aligned 
correctly so pins 20 and 24
don't interfere with each other, however the 
pinmaster continually gives me

"continuity error on pin 20"

Have I goofed somewhere?

Cheers,

You just tie pin 21 of the 2332 to Vcc (+5) - 
Pin 24 of the 2732 - to read.


There are only two modifications needed 
normally for reading a 2532/2332

in a 2732 socket.

2332

Pin 21 - Vcc (2732 Pin 24)
Pin 18 - A11 (2732 Pin 21)

If your reader coughs up a /OE error then use 
diodes:


2332

Pin 20 - 2 Diodes, one to 2732 pin 20, the 
other to 2732 pin 18. Banded
end to these pins, and you will also need a 
pullup resistor on the
2532/2332 socket pin 20 so /CE (2332/2532) goes 
high when not selected.
2K2 would do fine. Anything from your junk box 
between 1K and 4K7 should

work though.

I don't think you will need the diodes though.

John :-#)#


Hi John and others,

Thanks for that. I removed the diodes and wired 
2332 (21) to 2372 (24)
leaving the A11 swap in place, the programmer 
complained about pin 18
missing. The adapter in front of me is now wired 
like this:


2332 (18) to 2372 (21)
2332 (20) 2x diodes to 2372 18 (band) and 20 
(band)

2332 (20) 2k2 resistor to 2332 (24)
2332 (21) to 2372 (24)

Now I get "reverse insertion" hinting I've wired 
something upside-down which
isn't the case. I can read 27256 and 2764's no 
problem so I'm mounting

things the correct way.

Further digging into available eproms that the 
programmer can read reveals
it CAN read 2532s, specifically the MCM2532 
which the datasheet tells me has
the same pinout as the 2332. I still get 
"reverse insertion error" so I'm

guessing my PROMs are toast.

Cheers,

--
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest 
private home computer

collection?

Re: Retro Reproduction.

[geneb]

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Jon Elson wrote:


On 10/23/2015 04:32 PM, geneb wrote:

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Jon Elson wrote:



I sell some hardware for motion control based on this software, and have 
sold over 300 controller-interfaces.



A popular one seems to be using MachineKit on a Beagle Bone Black


Yes, my latest product is the CRAMPS board for machinekit and BBB.


I wouldn't mind finding step-by-step instructions on how to refit a 2000 
model year MaxNC 10 open loop mill.  The controller it has now is parallel 
port based and the control software is DOS only.


g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732

[Adrian Graham]

On 24/10/2015 19:18, "John Robertson"  wrote:

> On 10/24/2015 5:43 AM, Adrian Graham wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>> 
>> PET4032 repair continues with all ROMs, video RAM and dodgy sockets removed
>> thanks to a hot air gun. Holes cleaned and I have new turned pin sockets for
>> everything I've removed which I'll be fitting this afternoon.
>> 
>> Since the ROMs came out OK I'm trying to dump them using my Pinmaster48
>> programmer, being from the 90s it doesn't read 2332/2532 PROMs but it WILL
>> read a lot of variants of 2732 so I've made an adapter as found thanks to
>> google and USENET:
>> 
>> 2332 pin 18 to 2732 pin 21 (A11)
>> 2332 pin 20 to 2732 pin 18 (Chip enable/Power Down)
>> 2332 pin 21 to 2732 pins 20 and 24 via diodes with banding at the 2332 end
>> (2332 Vpp)
>> 
>> Wiring checks out and the diodes are aligned correctly so pins 20 and 24
>> don't interfere with each other, however the pinmaster continually gives me
>> "continuity error on pin 20"
>> 
>> Have I goofed somewhere?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
> You just tie pin 21 of the 2332 to Vcc (+5) - Pin 24 of the 2732 - to read.
> 
> There are only two modifications needed normally for reading a 2532/2332
> in a 2732 socket.
> 
> 2332
> 
> Pin 21 - Vcc (2732 Pin 24)
> Pin 18 - A11 (2732 Pin 21)
> 
> If your reader coughs up a /OE error then use diodes:
> 
> 2332
> 
> Pin 20 - 2 Diodes, one to 2732 pin 20, the other to 2732 pin 18. Banded
> end to these pins, and you will also need a pullup resistor on the
> 2532/2332 socket pin 20 so /CE (2332/2532) goes high when not selected.
> 2K2 would do fine. Anything from your junk box between 1K and 4K7 should
> work though.
> 
> I don't think you will need the diodes though.
> 
> John :-#)#

Hi John and others,

Thanks for that. I removed the diodes and wired 2332 (21) to 2372 (24)
leaving the A11 swap in place, the programmer complained about pin 18
missing. The adapter in front of me is now wired like this:

2332 (18) to 2372 (21)
2332 (20) 2x diodes to 2372 18 (band) and 20 (band)
2332 (20) 2k2 resistor to 2332 (24)
2332 (21) to 2372 (24)

Now I get "reverse insertion" hinting I've wired something upside-down which
isn't the case. I can read 27256 and 2764's no problem so I'm mounting
things the correct way.

Further digging into available eproms that the programmer can read reveals
it CAN read 2532s, specifically the MCM2532 which the datasheet tells me has
the same pinout as the 2332. I still get "reverse insertion error" so I'm
guessing my PROMs are toast.

Cheers,

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?

Re: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas?

[Josh Dersch]

On 10/24/15 11:40 AM, tony duell wrote:

That's pretty much what I figured.  I took a closer look at one of the
other dead XT2190s I have that I'd opened up to inspect awhile back and
there are a few ICs surface-mounted to the flat ribbon cable running to
the head assembly.  I suppose it's likely that one of these has failed,
though actually repairing it would be a trick involving some very
careful disassembly in a very clean environment.  (And a nonexistent
service manual.)

I have had (in other devices) dry joints on SMD devices on flexiprints. But
resoldering them inside the HDA is not going to be easy...

Most likely those ICs are head switch/preamp devices and the servo head
preamplifier. They are very likely to be custom.

On older/larger drives (the sort of thing I am more likely to work on) the ICs 
were
often DIL packages on a normal PCB. Often you couldn't replace them without 
opening
the HDA :-(. Micropolis had a nice feature on the 1200 series (8" hard drives) 
though --
the PCB was mounted over a hole in the HDA casing (obviously with a gasket). 
The heads
were wired to the inside face of the PCB, the cable to the logic board plugged 
into the
outside face. The ICs were plugged into turned pin sockets on the outside. So 
on that
drive you could field-replace them. They were custom chips, though. And of 
course you
couldn't replace soldered parts, like the decoupling capacitors as the solder 
joints formed
part of the HDA seal...

-tony



- Josh



So, a quick update here (and some idiocy on my part):

I (carefully) opened up the Symbolics' XT-2190 and took a quick look; 
the rubber bumper that Joseph mentioned (and it is rubber in this one -- 
my other opened drive has a plastic bumper) has started 
crumbling/turning to goo.  Portions of it had already chipped off. This 
bumper acts as both the start and end stop for the head assembly.


I removed the remainder of it (it's held on with a circlip) and spun the 
drive up (to see if they had just been stuck to the bumper) to the same 
effect as before -- the heads recal and then it just buzzes.  Then I 
gave the heads a nudge just to see what would happen, and... they ran 
off the end of the platters (no stop anymore) and well, I feel kinda 
stupid.  Sigh.


To add insult to injury, one of the heads is loose (the glue holding it 
on dried up and it fell off after the impact of running off the platter) 
so this drive is basically toast.  At least now I can kind of see how 
one takes this drive apart to remove the spindle; if I get overly 
ambitious and find a working sacrificial XT2190 to start with I could 
almost see myself doing a spindle replacement surgery to see if I can 
recover the data.


I think I'll stick to solid state devices for awhile.

- Josh

Re: Couplers for Sun DB13W3<->VGA DE15 adapter

[Mouse]

> I have a Sun machine with a 13W3 framebuffer output, which is
> connected via a Monoprice VGA adapter to my LCD monitor.  [...]

> I'm wondering what I can put between the two to keep the cable from
> disconnecting from the adapter.  Some searches seem to indicate I
> want some 4x40 (or 4-40) female-female (coupling) nuts; does this
> seem correct?

"Probably."

I've seen at least two different threadings on similar parts (metal
standoffs for peecee motherboards, male threads on one end and female
on the other).  But it seems likely to me that the thread for any
particular connector will be rather better standardized, and one DE15 I
just checked (actually, the DE15 end of a 13W3/DE15 adapter) is indeed
4-40 - or close enough to fool me when tested with a 4-40 nut.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Save a poor printing terminal

[Jason T]

This unfortunate creature has seen ill-storage and a slight mouse
infestation and bears the rusty scars of time and moisture.  But with
your kindness and patience, it will have the chance to bound joyfully
through fields of Greenbar once again, bringing joy and the printed
word/ASCII art to all who meet it.

Called LA120 by those that bred it, DECwriter III by those who loved
it, you can call it yours for the mere effort of picking it up from
the Chicago suburbs.  Shipping will probably be impractical and,
sadly, its time is short as my shelter needs the space for other lost
souls.  The man and his truck from the glue factory are already
hovering along my road.

Heart-rending photos available upon request.

-j

Couplers for Sun DB13W3<->VGA DE15 adapter

[Eric Christopherson]

I have a Sun machine with a 13W3 framebuffer output, which is connected
via a Monoprice VGA adapter to my LCD monitor. It works great, but the
ends of the standoff bolts without nuts come together where the VGA
cable meets the adapter; that is to say, the VGA cable's nuts are on the
far side of the shell from its male end, and the adapter's nuts are on
the far side of the shell from its female end.

I'm wondering what I can put between the two to keep the cable from
disconnecting from the adapter. Some searches seem to indicate I want
some 4x40 (or 4-40) female-female (coupling) nuts; does this seem
correct?

-- 
Eric Christopherson

Re: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas?

[Al Kossow]

On 10/24/15 11:40 AM, tony duell wrote:


Most likely those ICs are head switch/preamp devices and the servo head
preamplifier. They are very likely to be custom.



Silicon Systems was a common supplier in the 80s to mid-90s, which is why their
Storage Products data books have been scanned.

RE: Miniscribe "bricks" (was Re: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas?)

[Tom Gardner]

The MiniScribe brick story is told at:
http://chmhdd.wikifoundry.com/page/MiniScribe+files+bancruptcy 

The apocryphal tale is that when the Maxtor President visited his then
recently acquired MiniScribe facilities he was shown buildings 1,2, 3, and
5.  When asked what happened to building 4 he was told, "we shipped it brick
by brick."

Tom

-Original Message-
From: Noel Chiappa [mailto:j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu] 
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2015 2:50 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Miniscribe "bricks" (was Re: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure
mode -- any ideas?)

> From: Pierre Gebhardt

> Haha, I guess you're alluding to the massive scam with the bricks,
> Miniscribe did back them to pretend stocks full of disk drives...

Never heard the story. Can someone oblige?

> BTW, are there any other similar stories from the disk drive buisiness
> back in these days?

I don't know about disk drives, but there are lot of scam stories. One
minicomputer manufacturer (sorry, don't remember who, but I think it was on
the 128 belt) was shipping empty cabinets, in order to meet projections (I
dunno if they couldn't afford the parts to build the guts, or if their
manufacturing division couldn't build the stuff, or what).

Noel

Olivetti M24 Bus Converter Card

[Robert Jarratt]

I have an M24 which does not have the bus converter card P1050). There are a
couple of these cards on ebay in the USA, which makes it expensive for me,
and I am not sure which of the two would be best anyway.

 

There is another bus converter available in the UK, but it is PC1076 (IF
622), which my web searches suggest make it for the M280 (which was a 286
machine).

 

Does anyone have any idea if this latter card might work in my M24? It
certainly looks to be physically compatible.

 

Regards

 

Rob

RE: looking for Siemens T100 telexes in the US

[Rik Bos]

Simon,

cctech is moderated.

-Rik 

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: "simon" 
Verzonden: ‎24-‎10-‎2015 20:54
Aan: "cctalk@classiccmp.org" 
Onderwerp: looking for Siemens T100 telexes in the US

As my mail to cctech dod'nt came through, here a mail only to the cctalk 
list.

sorry if it becomes a double post.

Hi All,

I was contacted via the greenkeys list for my spare parts of the two 
T100 telexes, but I think it should be possible to obtain them in the 
states. Is there someone willing to part of their broken or otherwise 
non/half functional T100 in the usa.

they need the machines for a movie in the New York area.
-- 
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

looking for Siemens T100 telexes in the US

[simon]

As my mail to cctech dod'nt came through, here a mail only to the cctalk 
list.


sorry if it becomes a double post.

Hi All,

I was contacted via the greenkeys list for my spare parts of the two 
T100 telexes, but I think it should be possible to obtain them in the 
states. Is there someone willing to part of their broken or otherwise 
non/half functional T100 in the usa.


they need the machines for a movie in the New York area.
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

Re: piggybacked TSOP memory chips

[Antonio Carlini]

On 13/09/15 08:33, d...@661.org wrote:


Someone on #classiccmp showed pictures of a DDR SDRAM module with 
piggybacked TSOP memory chips.  I've never heard of doing this with 
surface-mounted devices.


http://imgur.com/a/CGk8h

I have, within easy reach, a 1GB SDRAM (168-pin) SDRAM that does exactly 
this.


I've seen plenty of smaller capacity SDRAM modules, and the 1GB one is 
the only one that I've seen that does this.
You can feel the difference in weight between the 1GB module and a 512MB 
one.


--
Antonio Carlini
arcarl...@iee.org

RE: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas?

[tony duell]

>
> That's pretty much what I figured.  I took a closer look at one of the
> other dead XT2190s I have that I'd opened up to inspect awhile back and
> there are a few ICs surface-mounted to the flat ribbon cable running to
> the head assembly.  I suppose it's likely that one of these has failed,
> though actually repairing it would be a trick involving some very
> careful disassembly in a very clean environment.  (And a nonexistent
> service manual.)

I have had (in other devices) dry joints on SMD devices on flexiprints. But 
resoldering them inside the HDA is not going to be easy...

Most likely those ICs are head switch/preamp devices and the servo head
preamplifier. They are very likely to be custom. 

On older/larger drives (the sort of thing I am more likely to work on) the ICs 
were 
often DIL packages on a normal PCB. Often you couldn't replace them without 
opening
the HDA :-(. Micropolis had a nice feature on the 1200 series (8" hard drives) 
though --
the PCB was mounted over a hole in the HDA casing (obviously with a gasket). 
The heads
were wired to the inside face of the PCB, the cable to the logic board plugged 
into the
outside face. The ICs were plugged into turned pin sockets on the outside. So 
on that 
drive you could field-replace them. They were custom chips, though. And of 
course you
couldn't replace soldered parts, like the decoupling capacitors as the solder 
joints formed
part of the HDA seal...

-tony



- Josh

Re: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas?

[Al Kossow]

On 10/24/15 10:15 AM, Josh Dersch wrote:

there are a few ICs surface-mounted to the flat ribbon
cable running to the head assembly.


Those are the head preamps. You should be able to scope out if there is 
anything coming out of them.

Re: PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732

[John Robertson]

On 10/24/2015 5:43 AM, Adrian Graham wrote:

Hi folks,

PET4032 repair continues with all ROMs, video RAM and dodgy sockets removed
thanks to a hot air gun. Holes cleaned and I have new turned pin sockets for
everything I've removed which I'll be fitting this afternoon.

Since the ROMs came out OK I'm trying to dump them using my Pinmaster48
programmer, being from the 90s it doesn't read 2332/2532 PROMs but it WILL
read a lot of variants of 2732 so I've made an adapter as found thanks to
google and USENET:

2332 pin 18 to 2732 pin 21 (A11)
2332 pin 20 to 2732 pin 18 (Chip enable/Power Down)
2332 pin 21 to 2732 pins 20 and 24 via diodes with banding at the 2332 end
(2332 Vpp)

Wiring checks out and the diodes are aligned correctly so pins 20 and 24
don't interfere with each other, however the pinmaster continually gives me
"continuity error on pin 20"

Have I goofed somewhere?

Cheers,


You just tie pin 21 of the 2332 to Vcc (+5) - Pin 24 of the 2732 - to read.

There are only two modifications needed normally for reading a 2532/2332 
in a 2732 socket.


2332

Pin 21 - Vcc (2732 Pin 24)
Pin 18 - A11 (2732 Pin 21)

If your reader coughs up a /OE error then use diodes:

2332

Pin 20 - 2 Diodes, one to 2732 pin 20, the other to 2732 pin 18. Banded 
end to these pins, and you will also need a pullup resistor on the 
2532/2332 socket pin 20 so /CE (2332/2532) goes high when not selected. 
2K2 would do fine. Anything from your junk box between 1K and 4K7 should 
work though.


I don't think you will need the diodes though.

John :-#)#

--
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
 www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"

Re: The Internet & our hobby

[Fred Cisin]

   > Well, it is not correct when we then include that it is 43 years old...
   > Internets using TCP/IP is a bit over 30 years old, but not over 40.


On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:

Good point! {Does a little math in his head...} 43 years, that gives us 1972.
The OP was clearly thinking of the ARPANET. Which as I have mentioned, was
_very_ different from TCP/IP, inside.


OR, he made a simple trivial typo or calculation typo, and meant 33, 
instead of 43.  That would place us in 1982, which is about right for TCP/IP.

Re: Common Maxtor MFM drive failure mode -- any ideas?

[Josh Dersch]

On 10/23/15 2:43 PM, Al Kossow wrote:

On 10/23/15 12:39 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:

I don't
suppose anyone has a service manual for these things so I know what 
stuff

to probe?  (Nothing on Bitsavers and a casual Google search turns up
nothing of interest.)



Service manuals/schematics/ASIC info is EXTREMELY difficult to get for 
anything beyond
the stepper motor era. What is on bitsavers are the results of my 
searching for
20+ years, and that isn't much. I've been digging into early 90's 
DC2000 QIC drives over the

past couple weeks, and hw docs for them are just as difficult to find.


That's pretty much what I figured.  I took a closer look at one of the 
other dead XT2190s I have that I'd opened up to inspect awhile back and 
there are a few ICs surface-mounted to the flat ribbon cable running to 
the head assembly.  I suppose it's likely that one of these has failed, 
though actually repairing it would be a trick involving some very 
careful disassembly in a very clean environment.  (And a nonexistent 
service manual.)


- Josh

Re: Speaking of reproductions..

[Jay Jaeger]

On 10/24/2015 2:21 AM, Brad wrote:
> I was checking out the Altair 8800 kit online (really cool).  But I am
> hoping to one day find a kit or plans to build a Mark-8 replica, since I'm
> so deep into Radio Electronics features.  I know there was a kit out there
> (Obtronix?).  Was it any good?  Do I need someone to make a new kit or is
> the Mark 8 within the realm of the home hobbyist the way the TVT was?  Ie.
> were there ever foil patterns  available for those boards or did the kit
> maker reverse engineer from originals?  Is there any likelihood of finding
> one of the replica kits still out there (I remember seeing one offered for
> $2000 on Fleabay once.. )
> 
> Brad
> 

Yes, the Mark 8 is within the realm of the hobbyist.

I am not certain how the kits that were sold online were done.  I did my
own replica.  I first did it by creating a schematic in KiCAD, and then
built the thing with wire wrap and tested it, to make sure I had my
schematic correct.   Then, having verified the schematic with the wire
wrap boards, I used KiCAD to lay them out as closely as I could manage
to the originals (I had the original documents that I bought back in the
day), and had Gold Phoenix make them for me.

I think the boards cost me something like $500, done as two separate
panel orders (along with some smaller boards to fill out the panel), but
I ended up with two Mark 8 sets, because Gold Phoenix made a mistake on
the first run, and so I got two of the first panel.  So then when I got
those back and verified them and was ready to order the second panel, I
had two of them made.   So, it presumably could be done for a bit less.

There are a couple of Signetics parts that can be hard to find, but when
I did mine I could get them from Little Diode in the UK.  However,
because of the scarcity of the Signetics parts, I also designed little
GAL replacement boards for them that were physically compatible.  I
never did do a suitable case for either replica.

You can see photos of what I did, wire wrap and PCB, here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/100660569@N02/albums/72157635194594542
https://www.flickr.com/photos/100660569@N02/albums/72157635953237715

However, I don't have any to sell.

JRJ

Re: The Internet & our hobby

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Johnny Billquist

> Well, it is not correct when we then include that it is 43 years old...
> Internets using TCP/IP is a bit over 30 years old, but not over 40.

Good point! {Does a little math in his head...} 43 years, that gives us 1972.
The OP was clearly thinking of the ARPANET. Which as I have mentioned, was
_very_ different from TCP/IP, inside.

Don't get me wrong, we learned a _tremendous_ amount from the ARPANET, and it
was a key step, but it's about as similar to TCP/IP as the Wright brothers
airplanes (with their 'wing-warping' roll control system, etc) are to modern
airplanes. (And actually, that's slightly unfair to the Wright brothers;
their airplanes are, IMO, actually closer to modern airplanes than the
ARPANET is to TCP/IP!)

Noel

PROMs and EPROMs, specifically 2332/2532/2732

[Adrian Graham]

Hi folks,

PET4032 repair continues with all ROMs, video RAM and dodgy sockets removed
thanks to a hot air gun. Holes cleaned and I have new turned pin sockets for
everything I've removed which I'll be fitting this afternoon.

Since the ROMs came out OK I'm trying to dump them using my Pinmaster48
programmer, being from the 90s it doesn't read 2332/2532 PROMs but it WILL
read a lot of variants of 2732 so I've made an adapter as found thanks to
google and USENET:

2332 pin 18 to 2732 pin 21 (A11)
2332 pin 20 to 2732 pin 18 (Chip enable/Power Down)
2332 pin 21 to 2732 pins 20 and 24 via diodes with banding at the 2332 end
(2332 Vpp)

Wiring checks out and the diodes are aligned correctly so pins 20 and 24
don't interfere with each other, however the pinmaster continually gives me
"continuity error on pin 20"

Have I goofed somewhere?

Cheers,

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?

Re: The Internet & our hobby

[Diane Bruce]

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 08:58:58AM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2015-10-24 00:22, ANDY HOLT wrote:
> >
> > Don't get me wrong... Emacs isn't a bad OS... Too bad there isn't a decent 
> > text editor for it.
> >
> >
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
> > 
> >
> > Ah, but nowadays who cares about
> > "Eight Megabytes and Continual Swapping"
> > (well, the first part anyhow) when your phone has 16GB
> 
> You people are confusing Emacs with the recent GNU Emacs... :-)
> 
>   Johnny

You mean the TECO macro? I remember that.


> 
> -- 
> Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
>||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
> 

-- 
- d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db

Re: Retro Reproduction 2

[rod]

Hello Tony
Well like a lot of things its not always simple.
Lets deal with the GT40 first.
 Well I know why I picked the car as opposed to the display.
In the late 1960's I did what was called a sandwich course.
Part of the time at work and part at college.
I worked in the test lab of a local cable manufacturer
The guy I worked for was in his sixties and would retire soon.
He had  been a racing driver prewar and knew everybody in car racing.

So well as having a test lab with every kind of electronic test 
equipment you could ever want.

I spent a lot of time at race tracks. At nineteen what more could you want.

Anyway one day I came back from lunch to find a GT40 parked outside the lab.
It was very sparse inside just bare fiber glass, wiring and a small 
passenger seat.


My boss said oh you have seen it then? Want a ride? Dave will take you.
I said it was a bit spartan inside.
Oh yes its just raced at LeMans ( can't remember if they won that year)
we have to keep the weight down

I'm 5'7" and weighed about 130 pounds in those days and I could get in.
My boss could not!
Suffice to say off we went and headed up to Maidenhead where the M4 
began in those days.
It was unrestricted and what followed was a blur, the vibration  , the 
noise.

No speedometer just a large rev counter.

When we got back there was my boss with a big grin on his face.
The driver stayed in the car and we waved him off.

Bill (the boss) took me in his office and poured me a small scotch from 
his  private supply.
I said I was a bit shook up. He said he was not surprised as 180 mph in 
a GT40 would do that.


Happy Days oh yes!

Rod




On 24/10/15 12:19, tony duell wrote:

The UK is full of small companies making and repairing all kinds of past
products.

For example the MGB GT (a much loved British sports car). The factory
stopped making them in the early 1980's
However a few guys bought the press tools and have been turning out two
or three body shells a day ever since.

Copy of a Shelby Cobra - no problem build from a kit. GT40 clone oh yes!

Be careful... On this list a GT40 comes from DEC and not Ford :-)

But as I understand it, those reproduction cars have reproduced bodywork
on top of modern mechnanicals. The engine, for example, is not a copy of
the original, it's a current-production car engine, complete with electronic
engine management and thus without the reason I would want a classic
car in the first place!

It's like a lot of the reproduction computers discussed here and elsewhere. They
look the same, the run the same programs, but no way _are_ they the same. An
RPi (or Beaglebone, or...) running an emulator is not a PDP11/70.

And as a hardware hacker, a machine I can't stick my logic analyser on is of 
little
interest

-tony

RE: Retro Reproduction 2

[tony duell]

> The UK is full of small companies making and repairing all kinds of past
> products.
> 
> For example the MGB GT (a much loved British sports car). The factory
> stopped making them in the early 1980's
> However a few guys bought the press tools and have been turning out two
> or three body shells a day ever since.
> 
> Copy of a Shelby Cobra - no problem build from a kit. GT40 clone oh yes!

Be careful... On this list a GT40 comes from DEC and not Ford :-)

But as I understand it, those reproduction cars have reproduced bodywork
on top of modern mechnanicals. The engine, for example, is not a copy of 
the original, it's a current-production car engine, complete with electronic
engine management and thus without the reason I would want a classic
car in the first place!

It's like a lot of the reproduction computers discussed here and elsewhere. They
look the same, the run the same programs, but no way _are_ they the same. An
RPi (or Beaglebone, or...) running an emulator is not a PDP11/70.

And as a hardware hacker, a machine I can't stick my logic analyser on is of 
little
interest

-tony

Re: Speaking of reproductions..

[David Williams]

On 24/10/2015 08:21, Brad wrote:

I was checking out the Altair 8800 kit online (really cool).  But I am
hoping to one day find a kit or plans to build a Mark-8 replica, since I'm
so deep into Radio Electronics features.  I know there was a kit out there
(Obtronix?).  Was it any good?  Do I need someone to make a new kit or is
the Mark 8 within the realm of the home hobbyist the way the TVT was?  Ie.
were there ever foil patterns  available for those boards or did the kit
maker reverse engineer from originals?  Is there any likelihood of finding
one of the replica kits still out there (I remember seeing one offered for
$2000 on Fleabay once.. )

Don't know of anybody currently supplying Mark-8 replica boards but Mike 
Willegal does have complete boards set for building a SCELBI 8H or 8B...


http://www.willegal.net/scelbi/the8008andScelbi.html

Cheers,
Dave

Pinging Oscar Vermeulen: Blinkenlight API for PiDP-11/70

[Jörg Hoppe]

Oscar,

I forgot to ask for your private email on VCFB, so I use this public 
channel.


Can you sell me a PiDP8, so I can port my Blinkenlight Api Server to the 
platform of the upcoming 11/70?
I'd like to have it as preassembled as possible, 'cause my schedule is 
very tight.


http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone

BTW, my photos of VCFB are here:
ftp://jhoppe.ddns.net/vcfb2105/index.html
... you remember me shooting into your face while the street car rumbled 
behind your back?


Thanks,
Joerg


Am 23.10.2015 um 12:54 schrieb Oscar Vermeulen:

http://retrocmp.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone/243-simulated-pdp-11-70-panel-on-simh


That's a work of art, together with the PDP-10 he did. I saw them running on a 
nice touch screen at VCF Berlin, and I wondered whether all this physical 
replication stuff makes sense when that's around at zero cost. Then I put my 
blinkers back on and went ahead anyway :)


You hit upon one of the key needs for these projects, a good replica bezel.
In my project I had to have a plexiglass bezel laser cut then used white plastic
to frame that bezel. It works but I would love to have a replica bezel.


Did you perchance make a CAD design for that, which could be reused? ;) I'm 
drafting a design at the moment, but far from perfect still.

I think of all the technologies available for making the bezel, vacuum forming 
seems to make the most sense. Injection molding is much better quality but just 
too expensive (tens of thousands USD). The other approaches, I think, work fine 
for small quantities. But I suspect there's a 'need' to make a few hundred.

Probably the best way is to make a very good open-source CAD model. Then make a 
low-cost vacuum forming mold, whilst anyone could still use the CAD file for 
higher-quality one-offs on a CNC router or, perhaps, 3D printer. The problem 
with vacuum forming is that you cannot make much more details other than the 
outer hull, which will look fine but need a lot of work on the inside to really 
mount in an original PDP-11.

Regards, Oscar.

Re: Retro Reproduction 2

[rod]

Er..  Wow!
   Ok the process mimics the original production system.
I draw the panel using Inkscape because it runs on windows and Linux,
produces .svg (scalable vector graphics) files and its free!!

As sources I use photographs, Scans (The best way because there are no 
lens errors) and drawings from print sets.


There’s usually a dominant layer or color.
For example pdp8's often have lines and text in white.

So what I do is to draw all the layers one per color.
As these will become the positives for the silk screens they are always 
black.


To do check prints I have a HP DesignJet T120 (24" wide roll feed)
Printing on reproduction clear film would generate the master positives.
However the girls like to be able to tweak things so they get the .svg 
files.

They have a printer all set up with repro film anyway.

I also have a plastics supplier who will not only laser cut the blanks 
to size

but do holes and cut outs as well.

So armed with my drawing files on disk and a pile of blanks its off to 
my silk screen printers.
If its a repeat order then they go and get the ready made screens. I own 
them and they keep them for me.


If its a new job then they make the screens. The screen on its frame 
gets hand coated with a photo sensitive
liquid which dries in a short time. The coated and dried screens are 
then exposed through my masters.
Where the black lines where can be washed off with water and hence let 
the ink through when printing.


The only real skill so far is getting the right amount of resist on the 
screen.


Now for the skilled bit.
The place is run by two very nice girls age about mid twenties.
They both have art degrees and are qualified colourists.

Getting the colors matched and getting the right mesh size saw them
sit down with their ink and screen rep and after about an hour I'm
told came up with the answers.

They can match way beyond a just noticeable difference and
being female (and there's no doubt about that) don't suffer from color 
blindness (which I do)


The final stage is the actual printing. They use vacuum printing tables.
They are about five feet square and about a foot deep. Also very heavy.
There’s a pattern of holes in the bottom and a domestic vacuum cleaner 
is used as an exhaust pump.

They also set up corner references to get each panel in the same position.
The screens are mounted on a sliding bar arrangement .
Getting this lot to register is a highly skilled job and not for the 
amateur.


I can duplicate most panels (metal as well) but as they say in the USA 
"custom costs"


I'm setting up for my next run now. (artworks done) Its for PDP8/e (two 
types) 8/f and 8/m

I'm in the drawing stage for 11/45 11/55 11/70 (common blank size)

So given a scan and measurements  and a panel that's not too big
(max to fit on a 19" rack box) I can have a go at most types of panel.

Now we need a bezel production person/group, switches source and lamp 
panel producer.

3D printing for the switches possibly?

For one off panels I'm looking at flat bed printers. So far way to 
expensive.


I hope this sets out what can be done.


Rod Smallwood

"If you take and do not give then soon there will be nothing more to take"





On 24/10/15 00:43, Mike Ross wrote:

On Sat, Oct 24, 2015 at 11:22 AM, rod  wrote:

Hi Guys

Well my missive on reproductions seems to have generated some interest.
There seems to be a lot of will to keep the old systems going and to
reproduce parts for them
and indeed build complete systems from new parts.

The main areas of interest are front panels (Not just DEC), key switches and
bezels.
Panels I can handle.  Who wants to be the focus for switches and who for
bezels?

More than one person for each category can only be a good thing. I'll call
them "The Makers"
Those who want the items I'll call "The Takers"  from 'I'll take one / some
if they get made."

Do you think you will be able to do 'custom' or one-off items if you
get the process efficient enough? I have a laundry list of panel bits
I need...

1. A replacement perspex for a pdp-12; damaged in shipping :-(

2. I have a couple of pdp-15s - and both have the panels that were
unique to the XVM incarnation of that system, like nothing else DEC
ever made; stick-on flexible plastic sheets mounted to a metal support
mask - see http://www.corestore.org/15-2.htm - I'd like convert one at
least of those to the 'traditional' DEC style of perspex panel. I
think that might end up being the only RP15 and FPP15 indicator panels
you ever make :-)

3. There is ONE IBM system (that I know of) that uses perspex, similar
to DEC: the System/360 Model 30. All other IBM panels are metal with
individual lights mounted in separate holes. The Model 30 uses
perspex: see https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7447/13437981955_ffdf7b7ef6_o.jpg
Differences from DEC panels are... all the printing in on the front of
the panel, there is no 'mask' for the lights printed on the back, and
the light 'holes' in the print are not round,

Re: Speaking of reproductions..

[Tothwolf]

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015, Brad wrote:

I was checking out the Altair 8800 kit online (really cool).  But I am 
hoping to one day find a kit or plans to build a Mark-8 replica, since 
I'm so deep into Radio Electronics features.  I know there was a kit out 
there (Obtronix?).  Was it any good?  Do I need someone to make a new 
kit or is the Mark 8 within the realm of the home hobbyist the way the 
TVT was?  Ie. were there ever foil patterns available for those boards 
or did the kit maker reverse engineer from originals?  Is there any 
likelihood of finding one of the replica kits still out there (I 
remember seeing one offered for $2000 on Fleabay once.. )


The patterns for most of the Mark-8 pc boards were published in Radio 
Electronics (except for maybe the cassette interface?). I'm not aware of 
anyone who has redrawn them having made their versions freely available 
however. There have been a few people in the past who have offered 
unpopulated reproduction pc boards at significant cost, but they were 
beyond my budget for such a hobby project.

Speaking of reproductions..

[Brad]

I was checking out the Altair 8800 kit online (really cool).  But I am
hoping to one day find a kit or plans to build a Mark-8 replica, since I'm
so deep into Radio Electronics features.  I know there was a kit out there
(Obtronix?).  Was it any good?  Do I need someone to make a new kit or is
the Mark 8 within the realm of the home hobbyist the way the TVT was?  Ie.
were there ever foil patterns  available for those boards or did the kit
maker reverse engineer from originals?  Is there any likelihood of finding
one of the replica kits still out there (I remember seeing one offered for
$2000 on Fleabay once.. )

Brad