Re: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek)

[Pete Lancashire]

... The system has been modified over time, with some types (e.g.
carrier pigeon -B-) dropped

JETDS is one of the few things that have survived, although one had to
use their imagination on a few things.

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 1:37 PM, William Donzelli  wrote:
> Google JETDS.
>
> It will tell all.
>
> --
> Will
> On May 3, 2016 4:35 PM, "Erik Baigar"  wrote:
>
>>
>> IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something
 nomenclature).

>>>
>>> 1666s are known as AN/UYK-64.
>>>
>>
>> Yes and the 1602 was the AN/UYK-19.
>>
>> land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for
>>> aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**"
>>> (and also not so freaking heavy!).
>>>
>>
>> Just out of curiosity: Is there an explanation, what the other
>> letters Y and K mean?
>>
>> Erik.
>>
>

Re: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek)

[Erik Baigar]

On Tue, 3 May 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote:

[snip]


A 1602B can hold 64kW of memory (only accessible via a banking
function proprietary to Rolm, so not usable e.g. for RDOS).


I thought the 16xx did it the same way Keronix and DCC did it -- by
limiting indirection to one level and then using the high order bit for
address rather than indicating indirection?


No, they implemented new instructions "double word instructions" as
they called it in the 5605 programmers manual. These do not exist
on 1601, 1602 and 1602 but on 1602A, 1602B and 1650. As the name
suggests, they use two consecutive words in core and thus it is
easy to give a 16 bit address directly. There are also some
floating point instructions here and a bunch of "double precision
instructions" working on 32 bit operands. So essentially the
5605 has got a microcode based 32 bit extension.

I have not tried whether the DGC way works,but I know that software
for Novas with two banks of core does not work - e.g. one is re-
stricted to 32kW in using RDOS on the 1602B...

BTW: The 1602 and 1602B have a stack implemented but I do not
know (or have looked it up) whether this is compatible to some-
thing else...

Erik.

Re: center tapped power transformer help needed

[Jim Brain]

On 5/3/2016 10:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 05/03/2016 08:08 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
60 Hz?  Maybe you could give the guys at Prem Magnetics a call.  They're
always sending emails offering to do custom work.

http://www.premmagnetics.com/

Yep, 50/60Hz.  I will check them out.

Also, Ian, thanks for the link.  I'll check them out as well.  I will 
admit, though, those Xformers looks huge in the brochure, and I always 
thought those little 120->6.3V 6VA transformers I used to find in 
cannibalized tape recorders and such were so much smaller.


Jim

Re: center tapped power transformer help needed

[Chuck Guzis]

On 05/03/2016 08:08 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
> Anyone here do any transformer specification or design and would be 
> interested in some consulting dollars to help me source/create a
> weird transformer option?
> 
> What I need is a 12V primary, 12V:12V center tapped secondary that
> can support 12VA of power.  Higher voltages are OK, but not needed.
> I am struggling on the Xformer details, but I know it needs to be
> center tapped, 1:1:1 @12VA

60 Hz?  Maybe you could give the guys at Prem Magnetics a call.  They're
always sending emails offering to do custom work.

http://www.premmagnetics.com/

Re: center tapped power transformer help needed

[Ian McLaughlin]

Why not use a 240v CT to 120v ?  Maybe something like this?

http://www.signaltransformer.com/sites/all/pdf/A41.pdf 


Use the 240v side as your 12-0-12 and the 120v side as your 12v.

Ian

> On May 3, 2016, at 8:08 PM, Jim Brain  wrote:
> 
> Anyone here do any transformer specification or design and would be 
> interested in some consulting dollars to help me source/create a weird 
> transformer option?
> 
> What I need is a 12V primary, 12V:12V center tapped secondary that can 
> support 12VA of power.  Higher voltages are OK, but not needed.  I am 
> struggling on the Xformer details, but I know it needs to be center tapped, 
> 1:1:1 @12VA
> 
> Jim
> 
> -- 
> Jim Brain
> br...@jbrain.com
> www.jbrain.com
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Filter service subscribers can train this email as spam or not-spam here:   
> http://my.email-as.net/spamham/cgi-bin/learn.pl?messageid=9355F9A611A511E68F5D407693ED0201

center tapped power transformer help needed

[Jim Brain]

Anyone here do any transformer specification or design and would be 
interested in some consulting dollars to help me source/create a weird 
transformer option?


What I need is a 12V primary, 12V:12V center tapped secondary that can 
support 12VA of power.  Higher voltages are OK, but not needed.  I am 
struggling on the Xformer details, but I know it needs to be center 
tapped, 1:1:1 @12VA


Jim

--
Jim Brain
br...@jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com

Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[TeoZ]

Those are pretty hard to find, have yet to add one to my collection.

-Original Message- 
From: Chris Hanson

Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 9:13 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast 
Equipment


Several of my friends worked on Intelligent Resources’ Video Explorer NuBus 
card, which could do realtime video capture and manipulation because it had 
some sort of video processing and switching chip on the card. It also had an 
open bus that could be used to connect multiple video-related cards together 
so they could bypass NuBus for sharing data. (NuBus is only 10-40 MB/sec.)


I think AnimEigo was using a subtitling system built atop Video Explorer 
cards right up until the switch to DVDs.


 -- Chris 



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Re: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer

[Tor Arntsen]

On 4 May 2016 at 01:25, Torfinn Ingolfsen  wrote:
> Update on NDwiki:

>
> I've been in contact with the persons responsible for NDwiki.
> Unfortunately, the Swedish gentleman who ran ndwiki.org got very busy
> with real life just after his server died, and still hasn't found time
> to get a new server up.
> The contingency plan was put in motion; the necessary data was sent to
> another Swedish gentleman so that he could set up a server and get
> NDwiki up on that. Bad luck again; he also got too busy with real
> life. He doesn't expect to be able to get the server up until this
> fall. :-/
> I'm currently investigating if me running the server as a temporary
> solution (until the Swedes have time to take over) is something they
> could agree on.
> There might be hope for NDwiki yet.
> --
> Regards,
> Torfinn Ingolfsen

Ah, positive news. In the meantime I've been half-busy creating a
local (private, for now) re-construction of NDwiki, from archive.org.
For at least to have easy access to some of the docu I wrote that I
don't have elsewhere.. (ND floppy formats, for example). Slow work, of
course, with no copy of the database available. BTW in case you don't
have a public server available I do have a mostly spare Linode server,
or alternatively I could get another - they're relatively cheap, and
have great network access.

-Tor

Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[Chris Hanson]

Several of my friends worked on Intelligent Resources’ Video Explorer NuBus 
card, which could do realtime video capture and manipulation because it had 
some sort of video processing and switching chip on the card. It also had an 
open bus that could be used to connect multiple video-related cards together so 
they could bypass NuBus for sharing data. (NuBus is only 10-40 MB/sec.)

I think AnimEigo was using a subtitling system built atop Video Explorer cards 
right up until the switch to DVDs.

  -- Chris

Re: FidoNet ....show [was: History [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email...

[Tomasz Rola]

On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 03:32:21AM -0400, couryho...@aol.com wrote:
> fido news when he became editor and they are lamenting the  Internet  
> taking away  from fido net
>  
> https://gopherproxy.meulie.net/gopher.meulie.net/0/fidonews/2002/fido1902.nw
> s
>  
>  
> In a message dated 4/30/2016 7:43:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,  
> ge...@deltasoft.com writes:
> 
> On Sun,  1 May 2016, Tomasz Rola wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 10:07:34AM  -0700, geneb wrote:
> >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner  wrote:
> >>
> > [...]
> >>> Just look into the political  machinations of what was known as FidoNet 
> to
> >>> see how this  could end up.
> >>>
> >> What IS known as FidoNet (1:138/142  here. :) ) and it's still a
> >> political shit-show, mostly due to  people from Zone 2. *sigh*
> >
> > Pardon my ignorant question but is  there a place on the net where I
> > could read some more about it? Or  maybe it is short enough to explain
> > here?
> >
> Books could be  written about it unfortunately,  One of the more annoying 
> aspects is  Bjorn Felten, the current editor of FidoNews - he's refused 
> repeated  requests to pass on his editor duties for various reasons and 
> he's refused  - for at least the last 10 years.  Find a telnetable BBS 
> that's a  member of FidoNet and start reading the FidoNews echo for a taste 
> of the  insanity.  The Fido Sysop (FNSYSOP) is also a pretty deranged  
> place.

Thanks, both of you. Indeed the editorial of 1902 news was creepy. As
of telneting, I almost registered to such BBS but at the very last
moment backed off. The reason was I can see how this kind of place can
be a real time sucker. I have already spent whole Sunday browsing this
gopher site with lynx (I turned gateway address into proper gopher://
one). It was a hell of a joy, because I do not think I knew of meulie
before. I was only poking at gopher.floodgap.com semi-regularly during
last umpteen months.

Now I even started to think, very shyly, how nice would it have been
to posess even one real IP4 number and have one such thing on my
router. It can run Linux (or so OpenWRT guys claim), so it can run
gopherd too. Albeit I would rather have non-Linux on it. My dreams
always have this complicated multistory property. Of course my cabletv
can sell me "business" service. Ugh. This is tempting but I am
strong. :-)

Ah, ok. I still have nothing to show off. So there is no reason to go
gopher. That was easy. Maybe next time.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

Re: ND-10 software - Re: Harris H800 Computer

[Torfinn Ingolfsen]

Update on NDwiki:

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 2:52 PM, Tor Arntsen  wrote:
>
> We (a few of us, including at least one more member of this list) used
> to document everything ND we could figure out on the 'ndwiki.org'
> site, but for unknown reasons (to me at least) it started going
> offline more and more a couple of years back, and then never came
> back. I didn't manage to get archive.org to copy everything before it
> went, although I got quite a few pages archived before it went for
> good. Without that site there's not much available on the net. Another
> reason my work on this stopped.
>

I've been in contact with the persons responsible for NDwiki.
Unfortunately, the Swedish gentleman who ran ndwiki.org got very busy
with real life just after his server died, and still hasn't found time
to get a new server up.
The contingency plan was put in motion; the necessary data was sent to
another Swedish gentleman so that he could set up a server and get
NDwiki up on that. Bad luck again; he also got too busy with real
life. He doesn't expect to be able to get the server up until this
fall. :-/
I'm currently investigating if me running the server as a temporary
solution (until the Swedes have time to take over) is something they
could agree on.
There might be hope for NDwiki yet.
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[TeoZ]

Radius Videovision was another major player early on for the mac (both Nubus 
and later PCI versions). There was also semi pro stuff like Supermac 
DigitalFilm. Targa also made a bunch of cards for overlays on PC and Mac. 
Avid also had some dead ends like Avid Media Suite Pro for the Mac.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzy94vWUitE  <== AVID/1 DEMO



-Original Message- 
From: et...@757.org

Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 4:36 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast 
Equipment



Media 100 was another company that came on the scene later on the Mac
side.



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Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 3 May 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> ISTR the Toaster Flyer had 3 SCSI channels, one for A, one for B, and 
> one for the output stream once you were done with doing the 
> layout/compositing, but I wasn't a Toaster user, so I could be wrong 
> too.

Interesting. That makes sense since you'd have a discrete channel for 
everything you needed for a two-source compositing operation like a roll.

I've used my SGI's a lot for simple video editing, but I never got into 
anything cool like a Toaster or an Avid rig. I know there are a lot of 
hardware options for doing video on SGI's (internal video, Sirius video, 
Galileo video, and the dmedia bundle for newer systems). There are 
applications like Alias Composer, Autodesk Flame, Flint/Effect, Avid 
Illusion, Jaleo, Matador, Piranha Cinema HD, Adobe Premier, and Shake. 
However, I haven't been able to get my hands on more than half that stuff 
because of how expensive it is. Plus, just about all of it was LMF 
nodelocked. So, you can't even buy a used copy.

-Swift

RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem

[Jarratt RMA]

> 
> On 03 May 2016 at 18:20 "Maciej W. Rozycki"  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, 2 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> 
> > I decided to attempt the construction of an adapter. But it is the
> > connectors which always bite me because I don't know what all the types
> > of
> > connector are. I naively assumed that an IDC 10-way (2x5) would do the
> > trick, but it is too wide to go into the male connector on the board.
> >
> > What kinds of connectors exist for ribbon cables that can be used to go
> > into
> > a 2x5 connector, but which don't have a lot of space at the sides?
> 
> I think this header is intended for a crimp wire receptacle, like:
> . This is
> non-polarised though; getting one that is polarised and with the right key
> might be a bit of a challenge. Alternatively a PCB socket like:
>  would do too; again
> getting a polarised one seems tough.
> 


The crimp wire one looks like it would work, thanks for the suggestion!


> 
> 
> I don't know which of the two solutions the original DEC SROM "dongle"
> used. I can only find 3 references quoting the part number, which is/was
> 96-RM001-01. It provided for a standard DECconnect cable, so I think it's
> actually quite likely that it was just a small daughtercard with a PCB
> socket, line driver and receiver ICs (DEC documentation quotes 1488 and
> 1489, but with a pair of wires used for communication that looks like an
> overkill to me -- a single IC like MAX232N would do IMHO; RS sell them
> individually even) and their associated passive components, and then an
> MMJ socket, all on the PCB. Obviously these days you probably want a DE-9
> connector instead. ;)
> 


I have a MAX232CPE now, just need the connectors and one more 1uF capacitor and
I should have all I need.


> 
> 
> I wonder if I shouldn't actually make something like this myself just for
> fun -- to have a way to peek at my DEC 3000's internals even though it
> appears healthy overall.
> 
> Maciej
> 

RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem

[Jarratt RMA]

> 
> On 02 May 2016 at 22:56 "Maciej W. Rozycki"  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, 2 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> 
> > > Other than that maybe it's NVRAM after all. But what could it be then
> > that
> > > did not show up in your testing? Could it be that the settings and
> > > environment variables stored there are protected with a checksum (or a
> > > signature) which happened to be correct for the random contents after
> > > power was restored and that in turn confused DROM diagnostics? Can you
> > > wipe NVRAM with your program, reinstall the DROM chip and see if the
> > > error
> > > returns?
> >
> >
> > This thought has crossed my mind. However, since I had to change the
> > battery
> > that backs up the NVRAM in any case, then surely the memory would have
> > been
> > zeroed? This NVRAM is battery backed, right? The NVRAM does contain
> > data, I
> > have verified this with my program, so something is repopulating it
> > after
> > the battery has been changed. I am slightly reluctant to zero the memory
> > on
> > purpose in case I can no longer boot the machine (I would save the
> > contents
> > before zeroing of course).
> 
> I don't think you can assume power-cycling NVRAM (which is effectively
> what you've done here by putting a new battery) will zero it. It would if
> there was some kind of a reset signal asserted at poweron that would set
> the flip-flops to a known state. But the KM6264B chip does not appear to
> have such a feature, nor an external reset input. So we need to assume
> its contents are random after a powerup. Have you ever used Sinclair ZX
> Spectrum? It had its video adapter active from powerup and you could
> briefly see the random contents of video RAM on the screen.
> 


I did a test last night which failed, but realised I did it wrong. I am away
from home again now and will try that test again, plus the suggestions below.

Thanks

Rob


> 
> 
> I understand your reluctance. The NVRAM is indeed supposed to be backed
> with the same battery the RTC is. There's just a slight chance the
> battery circuit is not operating correctly. There's no battery status bit
> in the NVRAM, but there is one in the RTC. You should be able to verify
> it with:
> 
> >>> d -b pmem:1ce00 0d
> >>> e -b pmem:1ce20
> 
> this will read BQ4285 RTC chip's register D. If this comes out as 80,
> then the battery is giving power to the chip. If this is 00, then there
> is no battery power available. Of course a broken PCB trace could make
> battery power reach one of the two chips only.
> 
> BTW, does your SRM console have a TEST command? If so, then have you
> tried it? Of course it might want to call into DROM and thus fail rather
> spectacularly if it's absent, but chances are it might not and you may get
> useful output from it.
> 
> Maciej
> 

Re: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek)

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Erik Baigar

>> as was coming up with something that could be both EMP-survivable and
>> TEMPEST-worthy.

> TEMPEST? 

A set of standards for allowed levels of emissions (in particular,
electro-magnetic radiation) from communication/computing gear, intended to
prevent listening to the activity of that gear:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempest_(codename)

Noel

Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[Ethan Dicks]

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 4:36 PM,   wrote:
>> Was I right? Did that thing actually digitize video? Once you had it could
>> you use it as a source for A/B rolls and the like that the regular
>> Toaster functions covered?
>
> From what I know the flyer boards had their own scsi bus or something for
> dedicated video disks?

ISTR the Toaster Flyer had 3 SCSI channels, one for A, one for B, and
one for the output stream once you were done with doing the
layout/compositing, but I wasn't a Toaster user, so I could be wrong
too.

-ethan

Re: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek)

[Erik Baigar]

On Tue, 3 May 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote:




On 5/3/16 12:14, William Donzelli wrote:

 [ snip ]


(and also not so freaking heavy!).


Yes, these are extremely heavy - the 1602 with the additional
24kW memory extension can only be transported over larger
distances using a barrow. It is not that big, but has a
density close to water ;-)

It is incredible to see, that there have been over 20 of the
Rolm processors and chassis in the aforementioned ATTAS aircraft.
And during some trials a F-16 had to carry three additinoal
Hawk/32s  ;-)

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16_VISTA


service was a bitch -- as was coming up with something that could be
both EMP-survivable and TEMPEST-worthy.


TEMPEST?  Not the play from Shakespeare I guess (sorry for stupid 
questions)...


   Good night,

  Erik.

Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[Dale H. Cook]

At 02:51 PM 5/3/2016, Swift Griggs wrote:

>Did that thing actually digitize video? Once you had it could you use it as a 
>source for A/B rolls and the like that the regular Toaster functions covered?

IIRC it could be used that way, but IIRC it wouldn't store an awful lot of 
video.

>I didn't realize the Avid stuff was as popular and well-used as you guys are 
>saying. ... Sounds like it was well used in professional broadcast apps, also.

Avid was initially only professional and very expensive. The fully-loaded 
Avid/1 Media Composer in 1989 had about 4 gigabytes of SCSI hard drive and 5 
megabytes of RAM (in the Mac) and cost nearly $80,000.00. IIRC that 
configuration could store something like 6 hours of 30 fps video with stereo 
CD-quality audio.

>... but a TBC? Was that because you had to have video timings exactly matching 
>before you could successfully show bits from both at the same time (ie.. in an 
>A/B roll) or was it for a completely different purpose ?

A/B roll was one purpose. Another use was that some video sources (such as some 
sat receivers) were not genlocked to the house standard, so we used TBCs to 
permit smooth dissolves and switching between sat receivers and in-house 
sources which were genlocked. We also got some out-of-house video (some church 
services shot by small churches come to mind) that came in on VHS, and the VHS 
decks were not genlocked.

Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html 

Re: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek)

[William Donzelli]

Google JETDS.

It will tell all.

--
Will
On May 3, 2016 4:35 PM, "Erik Baigar"  wrote:

>
> IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something
>>> nomenclature).
>>>
>>
>> 1666s are known as AN/UYK-64.
>>
>
> Yes and the 1602 was the AN/UYK-19.
>
> land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for
>> aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**"
>> (and also not so freaking heavy!).
>>
>
> Just out of curiosity: Is there an explanation, what the other
> letters Y and K mean?
>
> Erik.
>

Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[ethan]

Was I right? Did that thing actually digitize video? Once you had it could
you use it as a source for A/B rolls and the like that the regular
Toaster functions covered?


From what I know the flyer boards had their own scsi bus or something for 
dedicated video disks? I could be wrong, I worked for an ISP and one of 
our customers had an Amiga with one and I talked to him briefly about it.



I didn't realize the Avid stuff was as popular and well-used as you guys
are saying. Back in the day, I was under the impression that Avid
equipment was just for hobbyists, but it seems not. Sounds like it was
well used in professional broadcast apps, also.


Media 100 was another company that came on the scene later on the Mac 
side.



What about titlers? I'm under the impression that, until the mid-90's or
so, titlers were totally dedicated bits of hardware. Then came a lot of
packages for the PC and Amiga to do it in software and overlay it with a
genlock. I also remember that switchers and time base correctors were
needed for video back in the day. I understand the concept of a switcher
(easy) but a TBC? Was that because you had to have video timings exactly
matching before you could successfully show bits from both at the same
time (ie.. in an A/B roll) or was it for a completely different purpose ?


You got it!

Modern stuff sure fixes a lot!


--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek)

[Erik Baigar]

IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something
nomenclature).


1666s are known as AN/UYK-64.


Yes and the 1602 was the AN/UYK-19.


land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for
aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**"
(and also not so freaking heavy!).


Just out of curiosity: Is there an explanation, what the other
letters Y and K mean?

Erik.

Re: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek)

[Christian Kennedy]

On 5/3/16 12:14, William Donzelli wrote:

> Nitpick: the Rolm 1600s are not really avionics machines, although
> certainly quite a lot were put in aircraft. The military put them on
> land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for
> aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**"
> (and also not so freaking heavy!).

Yes, that was actually a major complaint of the hardware designers;
building something that was "reasonably" light for aircraft, could pass
the salt spray/corrosive environment tests for surface ships and the
large-excursion vibration (aka "depth charge") tests for submarine
service was a bitch -- as was coming up with something that could be
both EMP-survivable and TEMPEST-worthy.


-- 
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
ch...@mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB0692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.comPGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…"

Re: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek)

[William Donzelli]

> IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something
> nomenclature).

1666s are known as AN/UYK-64.

Nitpick: the Rolm 1600s are not really avionics machines, although
certainly quite a lot were put in aircraft. The military put them on
land and ship installations, thus the "U". If they were primarily for
aircraft installations, they would have been "AN/A**" and not "AN/U**"
(and also not so freaking heavy!).

--
Will

Re: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)?

[Paul Koning]

> On May 3, 2016, at 2:18 PM, Erik Baigar  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, 3 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote:
> 
>> further, at least as far as the THE operating system in 1964, on the EL-X8.  
>> That OS is particularly interesting because it has virtual memory and demand 
>> paging without any hardware help, without address mapping or protection.
> 
> Wow - and this machine still used a drum for secondary
> storage; quite outstanding, you are right!

It's quite a nice system.  The internals are fairly extensively documented in 
Dijkstra's early "EWD" documents (at the U Texas Austin archive), though a fair 
fraction are in Dutch.  Among other interesting aspects is spooling to virtual 
memory for both input (paper tape) and output (printer, paper tape punch, 
plotter).  And of course the impressive design discipline documented in  his 
famous paper "The structure of the THE operating system".

For that matter, the machine is interesting.  Not only is this the place where 
semaphores were invented and first applied, but they aren't just a software 
concurrency control mechanism.  The I/O system uses semaphores, too -- one that 
counts pending I/O requests, and another that counts completions and ties to 
the interrupt request.

paul

Re: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)?

[Chuck Guzis]

Again, not minicomputer, but the Burroughs B5000 did have "invalid
address" detection, which would case the machine to switch from "normal"
to "control" state with an interrupt.  The problem with comparing the
B5000 architecture to anything else is that it was quite liberally like
nothing else.

Some may argue that the IBM S/360 had I/O protection, but those of us
who played games with CCWs in user mode might take exception to that
statement.:)   One of the favorite CCW-writing exploits was to ring the
1052 console bell then execute a TIC (transfer in channel) back to the
bell-ringing CCW.  On one occasion that I'm aware of, this so panicked
the operator that he pulled "emergency stop"...

Ah, the good old days...

--Chuck

Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 3 May 2016, Dale H. Cook wrote:
> >I also seem to remember that the Toaster had something that came along 
> >later called the "Toaster Flyer" card that would allow you to digitize 
> >video and work with it digitally, but I never used one
> Our Toaster had a Flyer.

Was I right? Did that thing actually digitize video? Once you had it could 
you use it as a source for A/B rolls and the like that the regular 
Toaster functions covered?

I didn't realize the Avid stuff was as popular and well-used as you guys 
are saying. Back in the day, I was under the impression that Avid 
equipment was just for hobbyists, but it seems not. Sounds like it was 
well used in professional broadcast apps, also.

What about titlers? I'm under the impression that, until the mid-90's or 
so, titlers were totally dedicated bits of hardware. Then came a lot of 
packages for the PC and Amiga to do it in software and overlay it with a 
genlock. I also remember that switchers and time base correctors were 
needed for video back in the day. I understand the concept of a switcher 
(easy) but a TBC? Was that because you had to have video timings exactly 
matching before you could successfully show bits from both at the same 
time (ie.. in an A/B roll) or was it for a completely different purpose ?

-Swift

Re: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)?

[Al Kossow]

On 5/3/16 11:23 AM, Erik Baigar wrote:

> Well, but is this not an software abstraction for a non existing
> encapsulation feature of the underlying hardware?

Yes, or you can design a language with array bounds checking and no
arbitrary pointer dereferencing. Burroughs Algol, HP SPL, Xerox Mesa,
or their modern reinventions, built on segmented stack architectures.

On the microcomputer side, companies built MMUs for microcomputers that
had bank switching and protection. Digital Research MPM, for example.

RE: AlphaStation 200 NVRAM Problem

[Maciej W. Rozycki]

On Mon, 2 May 2016, Robert Jarratt wrote:

> I decided to attempt the construction of an adapter. But it is the
> connectors which always bite me because I don't know what all the types of
> connector are. I naively assumed that an IDC 10-way (2x5) would do the
> trick, but it is too wide to go into the male connector on the board.
> 
> What kinds of connectors exist for ribbon cables that can be used to go into
> a 2x5 connector, but which don't have  a lot of space at the sides?

 I think this header is intended for a crimp wire receptacle, like: 
.  This is 
non-polarised though; getting one that is polarised and with the right key 
might be a bit of a challenge.  Alternatively a PCB socket like: 
 would do too; again 
getting a polarised one seems tough.

 I don't know which of the two solutions the original DEC SROM "dongle" 
used.  I can only find 3 references quoting the part number, which is/was 
96-RM001-01.  It provided for a standard DECconnect cable, so I think it's 
actually quite likely that it was just a small daughtercard with a PCB 
socket, line driver and receiver ICs (DEC documentation quotes 1488 and 
1489, but with a pair of wires used for communication that looks like an 
overkill to me -- a single IC like MAX232N would do IMHO; RS sell them 
individually even) and their associated passive components, and then an 
MMJ socket, all on the PCB.  Obviously these days you probably want a DE-9 
connector instead. ;)

 I wonder if I shouldn't actually make something like this myself just for 
fun -- to have a way to peek at my DEC 3000's internals even though it 
appears healthy overall.

  Maciej

Re: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)?

[Erik Baigar]

On Tue, 3 May 2016, Al Kossow wrote:

The early BASIC minicomputer timesharing systems (line 2000TSB) had 
virtual BASIC machines for each user that swapped.


Well, but is this not an software abstraction for a non existing
encapsulation feature of the underlying hardware? DGs Extended BASIC
also implemented time sharing without the hardware offering this
feature and probably many other examples exist (Even if you beat
me: Early Windows?)...

If the language does not offer any critical commands, this works
as well as users can not do nasty things.

Re: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek)

[Christian Kennedy]

On 5/3/16 08:41, Erik Baigar wrote:


[snip]

> Yours seems to have TTY in slot 13 and there are 5 IO slots (15-
> 11) as on the original 1602 (1602B has got more due to the re-
> duced number of PCBs in the CPU). The CPI controlling the panel in
> your case is at the very end opposite to the power supply and
> inbetween you have got two core stacks - in total 32kW I think.
> A 1602B can hold 64kW of memory (only accessible via a banking
> function proprietary to Rolm, so not usable e.g. for RDOS).

I thought the 16xx did it the same way Keronix and DCC did it -- by
limiting indirection to one level and then using the high order bit for
address rather than indicating indirection?

> Have you ever powered on your 1666 with the 1648 panel? Although
> the 1666 was quite popular in the US I think the non US customers
> preferred the MSE14 due to better compatibility with the DG Eclipse
> series...

IIRC we sold a bunch of 1666Bs to the US Navy in YUK/something
nomenclature).

Cheers,
Chris
-- 
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
ch...@mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB0692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.comPGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…"

Re: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)?

[Erik Baigar]

On Tue, 3 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote:

further, at least as far as the THE operating system in 1964, on the 
EL-X8.  That OS is particularly interesting because it has virtual 
memory and demand paging without any hardware help, without address 
mapping or protection.


Wow - and this machine still used a drum for secondary
storage; quite outstanding, you are right!

   Erik.

Re: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)?

[Al Kossow]

On 5/3/16 11:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> Keep in mind that mapping and protection are not required to build a 
> multi-user system.  DEC did timesharing on the PDP-11/20 (RSTS-11) and on the 
> PDP-8 without either.

The SDS-940 is an early small-ish timsharing system that had base-bounds memory 
protection, circa mid-60s
It was the platform that a lot of early timesharing services used.

TSS/8 used 4K segmentation with protection (memory expansion/timeshare control 
option)

The early BASIC minicomputer timesharing systems (line 2000TSB) had virtual 
BASIC machines for each user that swapped.

Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[Dale H. Cook]

At 02:05 PM 5/3/2016, Swift Griggs wrote:

>I also seem to remember that the Toaster had something that came along later 
>called the "Toaster Flyer" card that would allow you to digitize video and 
>work with it digitally, but I never used one

Our Toaster had a Flyer.

Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html 

Re: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)?

[Dale H. Cook]

At 01:34 PM 5/3/2016, Toby Thain wrote:

>Great book, that repeatedly shows how many ideas we think of as "modern" are 
>actually quite old. :)

An example - the first dynamically refreshed capacitive memory system of which 
I am aware dated from 1939. It was not RAM, as it was a rotating drum.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 

Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[Dale H. Cook]

At 01:52 PM 5/3/2016, Ethan O'Toole wrote:

>The early Avid systems just commanded the VTR's over RS-422 to go to time 
>points then punch in, correct? It was non-linear but the video wasn't 
>digitized or stored on disk?

I don't know - the earliest Avid products I worked with were from the late 
1980s and early 1990s and used digitized video with the largest hard drive and 
biggest RAM that I had worked with up to that point. The MCR video playout 
system that I worked with stored all the short-form video in a bank of SCSI 
drives, and we ran all of the long-form manually from a bank of U-matic decks 
or directly from sat - all of the switching done with a Grass Valley switcher 
run by the Avid. We did all of the long-form preroll with a built-in preroll 
cueing function in the U-matics, and rolled them by hand, IIRC correctly (that 
was about 20 years ago).

Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html 

Re: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)?

[Paul Koning]

> On May 3, 2016, at 1:55 PM, Erik Baigar  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, 3 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote:
>> 
>> No, the PDP-11 offered this starting with the 11/45, in 1971.
> 
> OK, that is a hint - the 11/45 also had a MMU and obviosly must
> have been a great machine for multi-user stuff.

Keep in mind that mapping and protection are not required to build a multi-user 
system.  DEC did timesharing on the PDP-11/20 (RSTS-11) and on the PDP-8 
without either.  And multiprogramming goes back much further, at least as far 
as the THE operating system in 1964, on the EL-X8.  That OS is particularly 
interesting because it has virtual memory and demand paging without any 
hardware help, without address mapping or protection.

In all these cases, you need help from the compilers to keep things safe.  
Burroughs mainframes do the same sort of thing, though that's not so obvious: 
the OS security is dependent on the fact that ordinary users can't write and 
execute ESPOL programs.

paul

Re: Cleaning rubber goo

[Chuck Guzis]

I've been wondering if methyl salicylate  (oil of wintergreen) would do
a decent job.  Usually, it's used to restore plasticity to dried-out
rubber (one common treatment for hard typewriter platens is "Rubber
Renu", which is MS in a solution of xylol).

Nice fresh minty smell.  Good for your arthritis.  I haven't tried it
yet as a goo solvent.

--Chuck

Re: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)?

[Erik Baigar]

On Tue, 3 May 2016, Toby Thain wrote:

[snip]

Great book, that repeatedly shows how many ideas we think of as "modern" are 
actually quite old. :)


Yes, that are very wise words  ;-)

   Erik.

Re: Cleaning rubber goo

[Mike Stein]

I've tried Goo Gone and IPA (among others) but neither seemed very effective; 
maybe I'm just expecting too much and elbow grease is the answer.

m

- Original Message - 
From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: Cleaning rubber goo


> On Tue, 3 May 2016, Mike Stein wrote:
> 
>> What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo 
>> that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.?
> 
> FWIW I've used IPA with reasonable results; as recently as last weekend 
> last time.  It doesn't seem to affect intact rubber, at least not readily, 
> and it's quite gentle to various plastics -- it does remove the sticky 
> remains though.  I take it as an advantage actually.
> 
>  Maciej

Re: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)?

[Erik Baigar]

On Tue, 3 May 2016, Paul Koning wrote:


No, the PDP-11 offered this starting with the 11/45, in 1971.


OK, that is a hint - the 11/45 also had a MMU and obviosly must
have been a great machine for multi-user stuff.

In larger computers the feature is much older.  Consider the CDC 6600 
(1964).  While not all the properties you mentioned apply because I/O is 
in separate peripheral processors, the notion of a privileged mode and 
address mapping is there.  And even that isn't the oldest example, I


I have been aware, that  bigger machines offered this already
and therefore I explicitly asked for "Minis"... But yes, the CDCs
are very impressive machines!!!

   Thanks for your reply,

  Erik.

Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 3 May 2016, et...@757.org wrote:
> The early Avid systems just commanded the VTR's over RS-422 to go to 
> time points then punch in, correct? It was non-linear but the video 
> wasn't digitized or stored on disk?

That's what I remember, too, but I could be wrong. I also seem to remember 
that the Toaster had something that came along later called the "Toaster 
Flyer" card that would allow you to digitize video and work with it 
digitally, but I never used one. 

I was too poor. All I could afford in those days were tiny frame grabbers 
for the Amiga. 

-Swift

Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[ethan]

Add to those the Avid/1 non-linear editor from Avid Technology, 
introduced in 1989, which ran on a Mac II using some specialized 
hardware. It rapidly became the leading video editing system for 
television and film (which, of course, had to be digitized). It 
eventually displaced almost all celluloid cutting.


The early Avid systems just commanded the VTR's over RS-422 to go to time 
points then punch in, correct? It was non-linear but the video wasn't 
digitized or stored on disk?



--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: Cleaning rubber goo

[Paul Koning]

> On May 3, 2016, at 1:14 PM, Mike Stein  wrote:
> 
> What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo that 
> used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.?

That depends on what the substrate is.  If possible, I use lacquer thinner, 
which is a very powerful solvent.  For example, it removes label adhesive or 
rubber cement faster than anything else I've tried.  But if the substrate is 
some kind of plastic, it probably objects to this, so something less potent 
(and less effective) is needed.  A label chemist told me that label adhesive 
residue can be removed, slowly but safely, with WD-40.  I haven't tried that on 
former rubber, but it might serve for that as well.  The key point is that most 
plastics don't mind WD-40.

If it matters a lot, test the proposed solvent first on an 
inconspicuous/noncritical part of the substrate.  Sometimes you get surprised.  
For example, ethanol is safe for nearly all plastics, but it badly messes up 
clear acrylic ("plexiglas").

paul

Firming up rubber? (was: Cleaning rubber goo)

[tim lindner]

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Mike Stein  wrote:
> What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo that 
> used to be pressure
> rollers, belts, feet etc.?

On a similar note, does any have a solution to firm up rubber that is
just starting to gooify?

I have some joystick feet that are just starting to get sticky.

-- 
--
tim lindner

"Proper User Policy apparently means Simon Says."

Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware?

[william degnan]

ESX 5 is good.  I have migrated 32-bit XP to a ESX 5.  The reason I was
suggesting 2000 professional because it's more likely you'll find a good
Win 3.1 emulator that is native there, once you have a physical box working
you can snapshot the physical box into a virtual image.  Maybe it will work
on XP, if so, even easier.

Re: Cleaning rubber goo

[Maciej W. Rozycki]

On Tue, 3 May 2016, Mike Stein wrote:

> What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo 
> that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.?

 FWIW I've used IPA with reasonable results; as recently as last weekend 
last time.  It doesn't seem to affect intact rubber, at least not readily, 
and it's quite gentle to various plastics -- it does remove the sticky 
remains though.  I take it as an advantage actually.

  Maciej

Re: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)?

[Toby Thain]

On 2016-05-03 12:17 PM, Paul Koning wrote:



On May 3, 2016, at 11:52 AM, Erik Baigar  wrote:


Dear Experts,

during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question:
What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered
memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as:

 - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode)
 - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4)
 - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be
   set up individually.
 - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code.
 - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the
   memory and IO ranges must exist.
...
Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to
support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some
Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602.


No, the PDP-11 offered this starting with the 11/45, in 1971.

In larger computers the feature is much older. Consider the CDC 6600

(1964). While not all the properties you mentioned apply because I/O is
in separate peripheral processors, the notion of a privileged mode and
address mapping is there. And even that isn't the oldest example, I think.

Professor Per Brinch Hansen's 2001 book, "Classic Operating Systems":


  [the Atlas computer at Manchester University in the early 1960s] was 
the first system to exploit _supervisor calls_ known as "extracodes":
  Extracode routines form simple extensions of the basic order code, 
and also provide specific entry to supervisor routines.
  ... The Atlas supervisor has been called "the first recognisable 
modern operating system" (Lavington 1980).



The book reprints the 1961 paper, "The Atlas Supervisor," Tom Kilburn, 
R. Bruce Payne and David J. Howarth:



  The fixed store contains about 250 subroutines which can be called in 
from an object program by single instructions called extracodes. When 
these routines are being obeyed, extracode control is used: extracode 
control is also used by the supervisor, which requires access to the 
"private" stores. ...
  The supervisor program controls all those functions of the system 
that are not obtained merely by allowing the central computer to proceed 
with obeying an object program. ...
  Supervisor extracode routines (S.E.R.'s) form the principal 
"branches" of the supervisor program. ... They are protected from 
interference by object programs by using subsidiary store as working 
space, together with areas of core and drum store which are locked out 
in the usual way whilst an object program is being executed ... The 
S.E.R.'s thus apply mutual protection between themselves and an object 
program.



Great book, that repeatedly shows how many ideas we think of as "modern" 
are actually quite old. :)


--Toby






paul

Re: Cleaning rubber goo

[Chuck Guzis]

On 05/03/2016 10:14 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> something naptha/citrus based, like goo gone?
> 
> On 5/3/16 10:14 AM, Mike Stein wrote:
>> What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber
>> goo that used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.?

I start with detergent and water, which allows me to get much of the goo
off without smearing it all over the place.  Then paint thinner
liberally mixed with cursing.

--Chuck

Re: Nice LAB11 brochure.

[Eric Smith]

On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:54 PM, Glen Slick  wrote:
> On May 2, 2016 9:48 PM, "Eric Smith"  wrote:
>>
>> I hadn't heard of it being used in Tektronix oscilloscopes, but I'm
>> not surprised. They also used it in the DAS9120 series logic
>> analyzers, with the DAS9129 mainframe being the color display versions
>> of the more common DAS9100, and in the later 1241 logic analyzer. As
>> with the HP 1338A, the colors are red, green, and yellow.
>
> I thought the 1241 used a conventional CRT with a Liquid Crystal Color
> Shutter in front of it.

I think you're right. I remembered that the 1241 had an unusual
display, but forgot the details.

Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware?

[Mike Whalen]

Something I didn’t say explicitly that has caused some confusion is the
following:

We are an ESX 5.5 environment. None of our servers are physical, save for
the ESX server. Also, when I said “bare-metal” earlier, what I really meant
was that the remote site runs ESX and will bring up our VMs. The specific
software/tech we’re using for backups is Dell AppAssure with replication
and virtual machine exports.

So, when I say that I may need to spool up a VM to run this software, I
really mean another VM inside ESX.

Or I may put Virtual Box w/ XP or Windows 98 on the 2012 VM. Or something
similar. Ultimately it’s going to depend on how much they need this
program. It may be simpler and neater for them to transfer the data to
something else.

I forget who it was, but someone suggested hex editing the executable. I
don’t know about doing that exactly, but I did finally resolve a question
that has been lingering in my mind for quite some time…

The location of the databases the program accesses is hard-coded in the
executable. Wheee!  :-)

Re: Cleaning rubber goo

[Al Kossow]

something naptha/citrus based, like goo gone?

On 5/3/16 10:14 AM, Mike Stein wrote:
> What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo that 
> used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.?
> 
> m
> 

Cleaning rubber goo

[Mike Stein]

What's the best commonly available solvent for cleaning the rubber goo that 
used to be pressure rollers, belts, feet etc.?

m

RE: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware?

[Dave Wade]

You don't need a Win3.1 emulator for Windows/2000 or Windows/XP, they are 
32-bit only OS's and will run 3.1 programs out of the box. 

Dave
G4UGM
(Notes there are a couple of offerings called XP 64-bit but they are actually 
modified versions of Server 2003 which is a different code base to XP).

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william
> degnan
> Sent: 03 May 2016 17:54
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware?
> 
> May be a crazy idea but worth a try.
> 
> First set up Win 2000 professional and find a Win 3.1 emulator that works
> within it.  Once that's solid and running on Win 2000 box transplant the 
> physical
> Win 2000 server to virtual.  There are Win 2000 containers in VMWare and
> VCloud Director type utilities that can be used, or you can do it at the 
> command
> prompt.  I used this technique to set up an XP box into a cloud server that 
> was
> running VMWare where you were allowed to spin up boxes.
> 
> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Mike Whalen
> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Bill,
> >
> > Is “Virtual 2000 Professional” a product? Or is that Virtual PC with a
> > VM of Windows 2000 Professional running?
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> @ BillDeg:
> Web: vintagecomputer.net
> Twitter: @billdeg 
> Youtube: @billdeg 
> Unauthorized Bio 

Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[Al Kossow]

On 5/3/16 8:56 AM, Swift Griggs wrote:

> Superpaint running on a DG Nova 800
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superpaint
>

Superpaint was an experimental system at Xerox PARC

Quantel paintboxes were some of the earliest commercial systems.

Dig around in the SIGGRAPH proceedings in the 70s for others.

The technology advanced rapidly once semiconductor memory systems
were dense enough to have color frame stores that weren't astronomically
expensive.

Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware?

[Fred Cisin]

Wouldn't it be easier to run the code on a machine from the relevant time 
period?


XP32 laptops are fairly readily available, and don't take much storage 
space.

Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[Dale H. Cook]

At 11:56 AM 5/3/2016, Swift Griggs wrote:

>The Quantel Paintbox:
>
>Superpaint running on a DG Nova 800
>
>The Bosch FGS 4000

Add to those the Avid/1 non-linear editor from Avid Technology, introduced in 
1989, which ran on a Mac II using some specialized hardware. It rapidly became 
the leading video editing system for television and film (which, of course, had 
to be digitized). It eventually displaced almost all celluloid cutting.

After NT4 was introduced Avid introduced Avid Studio for that OS, the first 
Windows OS that Avid considered stable enough for one of its edit suites. AFAIK 
everything before that was for Mac. They also built video playout systems for 
TV master control rooms that were Mac based. Perhaps Avid's best known product 
is Pro Tools, which they acquired when they bought Digidesign in 1994.

The small TV station that I worked for used Video Toaster before we bought Avid 
Studio. The latter made a huge difference in editing ability, FX range and 
quality, and rendering time.

Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer (and former TV Engineer), 
Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html 

Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware?

[william degnan]

May be a crazy idea but worth a try.

First set up Win 2000 professional and find a Win 3.1 emulator that works
within it.  Once that's solid and running on Win 2000 box transplant the
physical Win 2000 server to virtual.  There are Win 2000 containers in
VMWare and VCloud Director type utilities that can be used, or you can do
it at the command prompt.  I used this technique to set up an XP box into a
cloud server that was running VMWare where you were allowed to spin up
boxes.

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Mike Whalen 
wrote:

> Bill,
>
> Is “Virtual 2000 Professional” a product? Or is that Virtual PC with a VM
> of Windows 2000 Professional running?
>



-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg 
Youtube: @billdeg 
Unauthorized Bio 

Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware?

[Mike Whalen]

Bill,

Is “Virtual 2000 Professional” a product? Or is that Virtual PC with a VM
of Windows 2000 Professional running?

Re: When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)?

[Paul Koning]

> On May 3, 2016, at 11:52 AM, Erik Baigar  wrote:
> 
> 
> Dear Experts,
> 
> during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question:
> What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered
> memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as:
> 
>  - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode)
>  - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4)
>  - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be
>set up individually.
>  - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code.
>  - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the
>memory and IO ranges must exist.
> ...
> Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to
> support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some
> Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602.

No, the PDP-11 offered this starting with the 11/45, in 1971.

In larger computers the feature is much older.  Consider the CDC 6600 (1964).  
While not all the properties you mentioned apply because I/O is in separate 
peripheral processors, the notion of a privileged mode and address mapping is 
there.  And even that isn't the oldest example, I think.

paul

When did Memory- and IO Protection Emerge (Esp. in Minis)?

[Erik Baigar]

Dear Experts,

during discussing the Rolms I came accross the following question:
What was the first (Minicomputer) architecture which offered
memory- and IO protection? I'd define the minimum requirements as:

  - Existence of a superuser mode (Rolm calls this Executive mode)
  - Existence of a user mode (With at least two users, Rolm offers 4)
  - In superuser mode, IO and memory protection for each user can be
set up individually.
  - Any access violation is trapped and handeled by superuser code.
  - Of course commands for mode switching and setting up the
memory and IO ranges must exist.

I have got a real machine (Rolm 1602) having this implemented
and dating from 1975. A document on this "Access Protection Module" as 
Rolm calls it also is dated 1975. It consists of a microcode module

which realizes an extension of the 16 bit Nova instruction set and an
additinoal CPU module, taking care of the new modes and supervising
the IO- and memory accesses.

My question is not regarding virtual memory memory, but regarding
protection (IO and memory) to ensure capsulation of indivitual
processes - not necessarily for multi user environments but e.g.
for safety critical applications...

Probably OS/2 in 1987 was one of the first home computer OSes to
support memory protection (how about IO protection?), BSD on some
Digital PDP-* was earlier (1977?) but still after the 1602.

Any hints out there on other "Mini" architectures of that era 
having someting similar?


Erik.

Re: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek)

[Erik Baigar]

Hi Bob,

many thanks for your email and for sharing the photos. Obviously
the 1603 has a different processor card set (5604 as can be seen
from your photographs). So this is quite interesting as it shows,
that the chronology was 1602 (9 PCB processor), 1603 (5604, 4 PCB
procrssor), 1602B (5605, 2-PCB sandwich processor).

Yours seems to have TTY in slot 13 and there are 5 IO slots (15-
11) as on the original 1602 (1602B has got more due to the re-
duced number of PCBs in the CPU). The CPI controlling the panel in
your case is at the very end opposite to the power supply and
inbetween you have got two core stacks - in total 32kW I think.
A 1602B can hold 64kW of memory (only accessible via a banking
function proprietary to Rolm, so not usable e.g. for RDOS).

Have you ever powered on your 1666 with the 1648 panel? Although
the 1666 was quite popular in the US I think the non US customers
preferred the MSE14 due to better compatibility with the DG Eclipse
series...

 Very interesting and again many thanks for sharing!

 Erik.


On Sun, 1 May 2016, Bob Rosenbloom wrote:


On 4/27/2016 10:12 PM, Erik Baigar wrote:


On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Bob Rosenbloom wrote:

I have my Rolm 1603 working. No peripherals hooked to it, but you can 
toggle in stuff from the front panel.

http://dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/rolm1603_f.jpg


Very cool, Bob - we have been in touch seom years ago and
great, that your machine is still alive! Many thanks for the
picture and two questions out of curiosity:

(1) The panel is mounted on the rear side (where memory is) of
the processor. Is it wired and powered internally or do
you have to connect the panel to the plugs of the
processor externally?
(2) The 1603 uses the same 5605 processor "sandwich" also
used by the 1602B and not the 9PCBs of the earlier 1602s?

Keep up taking care of your Rolm, its a very nice and rare
machine...

Erik

Yes, the panel is mounted near the memory and plugs into the bus.

I think it's the 5605 processor, four CPU boards + some I/O.

More photos of it can be found here:

http://www.dvq.com/rolm/

Bob

--
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org

Re: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek)

[Erik Baigar]

Hi Chris,

thanks for the additional explanations.


in the hardware lab, 99.999% of ARTS/32 (and all of the Marvin)
development took place on commercial DG hardware -- MV/8000s for
ARTS/32, MV/1s for Marvin (with MV/4000s used as target machines).


OK, that is helpful information - Stephen Merrony in the UK is
taking care of the MV series hardware/software/documentation and
he has some manuals on his page which enlightened me regarding
MV/Hawk32 instructions and usage:

   http://www.stephenmerrony.co.uk/dg/doku.php


It's funny that you mention the MSE14; it was the other punch done by
ROLM, basically a S140 stuffed into a 1/2 ATR chassis.


What I have got is even smaller - called MSE14/Micro, it is 1/4 ATR
with a CPU on only two cards thightly packed together back-to-back
to ensure short connections and each full with discrete chips (AMD ALU,
sequencer, 32kW RAM and memory map; photographs show both sides of
the heavy CPU sandwich) -

  http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/MSE14-CPU-Arithmetics-Memory.jpg
  http://www.baigar.de/TornadoComputerUnit/MSE14-CPU-Microcode-Integer.jpg

it even has got a hardware multiplier doing 16*16->32 in one processor
cycle - so quite fast for those days. With the >20MHz, these are
running at, I can imagine that the "full size" MSE14 may have had
timing problems with the CPU distributed to several cards (and
many plugs for the signals have to pass).


"Eagle" was DG's name for the MV architecture; ROLM's "Hawk" was a play
on "Eagle" ;)


Indeed -  ;-)


   which explains why we're
only now in the process of changing out the 1970's 370-derived computers
in the E-3.


Hmm, I am not sure if this is a positive development. Special care
has to be taken to make the software robust and independent of
access to the internet. One does not want to run into trouble with
viruses etc. in such a context  ;-)


In the case of the Hawk this was known
internally as the "one second architectural verification", but running
on the simulator it took approximately forever to finish,


Very funny - and understandable. Even in case of the MSE14 this BITE
implemtend in microcode takes several seconds and it is easy to
understand that it must have required a long time in the 1990ties
if simulated.


EventDetect (tm, no less) was basically a
PN diode that would conduct in the presence of radiation events and
non-destructively crowbar the power supply, after which the machine
would execute a normal power-fail auto-restart (the joys of core).


Hmm - here I am not sure. I just discovered, that I am proud owner
of PCBs called "Event Detect" with part number 7100A - so they really
existed, at least if mine are the right ones; They are IO boards
and therefore I doubt they short the power supply. At some time in
the future I will have a closer look to see what is on them.

[snip]


> (Access Protection Module or Mode or whatever (?)). This option is
> not listed in the standard IO options and to my knowledge is a very
> early form (dated before 1974) of such a feature  ;-)

Way before my time.  I assiduously avoided all contact with the 16XX
stuff,


;-)  I think it is worth starting a separate thread here on the question
which early systems had a facility for memory and IO protection
facility. I still think, that 1975 is quite early for a Minicomputer
architecture.


Toshiba America Electronic Components.  We did the MIPS-derived core in
the CPU2 chip of the Sony PS/2 -- the so-called "Emotion Engine".


From all your comments I am quite sure, that you had a very
interesting business life so far - congratulations!

Many thanks again and best regards,

   Erik.






On Sun, 1 May 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote:




On 5/1/16 04:10, Erik Baigar wrote:


sorry, but there emerged more questions from my side  ;-)


It's a trip down memory lane ;)



On Fri, 29 Apr 2016, Christian Kennedy wrote:


Hawk, but not the odd S/140 and MV/8000 punches) and software (ARTS,
ARTS/32) were ROLM designs.


I only know ARTS from ads being sold on eBay - this is some
form od Ada development environment (or a complete OS?)? The
acronym probably means something like "Ada Real Time System" (?).


Advanced Real Time System.  Memory resident with hard latency limits for
servicing interrupts; it had nothing to do with the Ada compiler.



Was this a cross compiler tool or did it run natively on the
hardware? As there is a /32 variant, do you think a variant
for the 16 bit machines like 16xx or MSE14 did survive some-
where?


ARTS/32 was for Eagle architecture machines and actually made use of the
rings :P.  Prior to the Hawk there was a punch (basically a
militarization of DG's prints) of the MV/8000 of which something like
three were sold; it was about the size of a large modern refrigerator
and was sufficiently massive that it had large lifting rings on the top
of the cabinet; while sometime someone would fire up the one that lurked
in the hardware lab, 99.999% of ARTS/

Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[Swift Griggs]

Back in the early 90's I remember that many times I'd see a print 
advertisement for a Video Toaster or a new genlock card, they'd say things 
like "features you'd have to pay thousands for in a professional paintbox 
or titler!" I always wondered what they were talking about, since I'd 
never seen how broadcast was done back then (and still don't know). So, 
I'm really talking about the tech of the 80's (since that's what the 
marketing folks were referring to, I assume).

Here's what I could find that I'm speculating were the "competition" of 
the time:

The Quantel Paintbox:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantel_Paintbox

Superpaint running on a DG Nova 800
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superpaint

The Bosch FGS 4000
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oyGaEu7D7s

These are about the only ones I could find. Does anyone know of any 
others? 

Also, here are my favorite paint and 2D animation programs of yore. If you 
guys have others that you loved and remember, what were they?

DOS

1. Deluxe Paint II Enhanced
2. PC Paintbrush
3. Autodesk Animator
4. Paul Mace's GRASP
5. Deluxe Paint Animation

Amiga

1. Photogenics
2. Photon Paint 
3. TVPaint 
4. Brilliance
5. Disney Animation Studio

Sorry, I didn't use the Mac enough to form any favorites, though I did 
love Fractal Design Painter (now Corel Painter). 

-Swift

Trying to repair a Smith-Corona letter quality "printer"

[Chris Osborn]

I picked up a Smith-Corona Memory Correct 400 Messenger typewriter at Goodwill 
last week. It has the daisy wheel but no ribbon. I debated getting it since I 
already have enough retro stuff around the house, but every single time I’m at 
a Goodwill I look at all the typewriters to see if they have some kind of 
serial or parallel port. This one has a DE9 connector on the back which can be 
connected to a computer using an external box called a Messenger Module, which 
I also have.

I plugged it in at the store and the typewriter didn't power up. They gave me 
10 bucks off so I couldn’t resist and bought it. I’m hoping it’s an easy fix, 
but I can’t figure out how to get the thing apart at all! The four screws in 
the bottom just hold the plastic case to the metal frame, and removing them 
didn’t allow the case to come apart. I can’t figure out how to get the two 
plastic halves separated. There's no screws in the top and no other screws in 
the bottom. The plastic halves aren't welded together around the outside, I can 
wedge a screwdriver between them all the way around. There seems to be 
something holding the halves together near the four corners.

Does anyone have any idea of how to get this thing open (without breaking the 
plastic)? I’ve searched all over the internet but I can’t find any scanned 
service manuals. The typewriter is from 1984 and was sold for $600 new so it 
doesn't seem to me like it would be a "disposable" item so there has to be a 
way to open it and service it. From what I can tell the 200/300/400 all use the 
same case, and the Memory Correct II/III use a very similar case, so info for 
any of those may help.

I posted an album here:

  http://imgur.com/a/SxfTE

and a YouTube video here:

  http://youtu.be/ryDl0Qvl7Gk

Any assistance in opening the case without breaking it will be greatly 
appreciated! :-)

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com

Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware?

[william degnan]

Mike,
Have you tried running virtual 2000 professional, running a Win 3.1 16-bit
emulator ("or some form of Win 3.1 emulator within a virtual machine
bridge")?

Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware?

[Mike Whalen]

Hey everyone,

First I want to say thanks to everyone for ideas. I've lobbed the question
of whether anything really needs to be done back at the company in
question. It's possible that we can limp along or we don't need to do
anything.

What generated this particular inquiry is that I am putting together a
Windows Server 2012 Remote Desktop Services server. This server will be in
part a daily driver for some important applications for the company. This
RDS server will also allow us to continue company operations in the event
of a disaster. We have primary on site back ups and replications to a
remote site in which the bare metal backups can be pressed into service as
virtual machines should the need arise such as in the case of a local
disaster, prolonged power or network outage, and more.

Windows Server 2012 is 64-bit only. To my knowledge there is no way to run
16 bit applications aside from virtually. Furthermore I have determined
definitively that this particular application was compiled in 16-bit only.
I searched for the source code yesterday and I was not able to find it.
Granted I haven't been with the firm since the 1990s so I really only have
a bare understanding of where I could possibly go look. This particular
company has a lot of legacy equipment sitting in a high-rise in
Houston, Texas. There are a lot of Compaq machines among many other types
of devices, tapes, drives and more hanging around. It is certainly possible
that anyone of those storage media contains the source code, but I have no
idea whether any of that stuff is even readable or where to start looking.

The credits screen of the software shows an older oil company that, I
believe, no longer exists. However some of the employees of that particular
company are still around and are affiliated with the organization that I am
working with. It's unlikely but possible that somebody remembers this
particular bit of software. It's also unlikely but possible that the
original author is among those people.

If I can find the source code, I will do my best to get it upgraded to at
least Visual Basic 6 so we can run in 32 bit mode. Since I have no idea
where the source code is I really don't have a lot of hope for this.

In all likelihood I will attempt to either build a Windows XP virtual
machine or perhaps a windows 98 virtual machine. This presents a few
administrative challenges but it may be possible.

But at the moment the question may be moot. The company may come back and
say forget it. I sort of hope they do.

I respectfully request that if there are any follow-ups to this particular
message that they be sent to me privately. As I said in the original post I
think that this skirts the boundaries of off-topic. I now believe that the
topic is off-topic. I don't think this list needs to be cluttered up
further with anymore of this discussion.

Thank you all again for some really great ideas and tips.

Cheers,

Mike Whalen

Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 05/03/2016 05:57 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 3 May 2016 at 05:24, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
>> The hardware's not there to run 16-bit code natively in 64 bit 
>> mode.
> 
> 
> I think you mean software?
> 
> It is possible to run Windows 7's XP Mode under Windows 8.x -- I've
> done it.

I'll retrench and restate that in terms of "it depends". If your CPU
doesn't support Hardware Virtualization Mode, you're out of luck:

http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/5460/our-look-at-xp-mode-in-windows-7/

You'll note that I did suggest VirtualBox with my initial post.  I've
run a variety of "antique" systems under it (under Linux), including
Microsoft Unix (the SysVR4 variant).  That it works has saved me a lot
of trouble over the years.

I don't know how long we'll have any sort of native capability to run
16-bit code without emulation, however.

Of course, anything can be run (more slowly) under emulation or
on-the-fly conversion.

You'll perhaps recall when, a couple of years ago, the Debian kernel
release disabled 16-bit segment descriptors, citing it as a security
issue, causing a minor kerfuffle.  Linus quickly admitted that it was a
mistake--so score one for the oldsters.

--Chuck

Fwd: RSTS and slow DECnet operation in SIMH

[Paul Koning]

For those of you running DECnet/E on simulators...

paul

> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Paul Koning 
> Subject: Re: RSTS and slow DECnet operation in SIMH
> Date: May 2, 2016 at 1:37:45 PM EDT
> To: SIMH 
> 
>> 
>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
>> 
>> With help from Mark Pizzolato, I've been looking at why RSTS (DECnet/E) 
>> operates so slowly when it's dealing with one way transfers.  This is 
>> independent of protocol and datalink type; it shows up very clearly in NFT 
>> (any kind of file transfer or directory listing) and also in NET (Set Host). 
>>  The symptom is that data comes across in fairly short bursts, separated by 
>> about a second of pause.
>> 
>> This turns out to be an interaction between the DECnet/E queueing rules and 
>> the very fast operation of SIMH on modern hosts.  DECnet/E will queue up to 
>> some small number of NSP segments for any given connection, set by the 
>> executor parameter "data transmit queue max".  The default value is 4 or 5, 
>> but it can be set higher, and that helps some.
>> 
>> The trouble is this: if you have a one way data flow, for example NFT or FAL 
>> doing a copy, the sending program simply fires off a sequence of send-packet 
>> operations until it gets a "queue full" reject from the kernel.  At that 
>> point it delays, but the delay is one second since sleep operations have one 
>> second granularity.  The other end acks all that data quite promptly, but 
>> since the emulation runs so fast, the whole transmit queue can fill up 
>> before the ack from the other end arrives, so the queue full condition 
>> occurs, then a one second delay, then the process starts over.
>> 
>> This sort of thing doesn't happen on request/response exchanges; for example 
>> the NCP command LOOP NODE runs at top speed because traffic is going both 
>> ways.
>> 
>> I tried fiddling with the data queue limit to see if increasing it would 
>> help.  It seems to, but it's not sufficient.  What does work is a larger 
>> queue limit (32 looks good) combined with CPU throttling to slow things down 
>> a bit.  I used "set throttle 2000/1" (which produces a 1 ms delay every 2000 
>> instructions, i.e., roughly 2 MIPS processing speed which is at the high end 
>> of what real PDP-11s can do).  Those two changes combined make file transfer 
>> run smoothly and fast.
>> 
>> Ideally DECnet/E should cancel the program sleep when the queue transitions 
>> from full to not-full, but that's not part of the existing logic (at least 
>> not unless the program explicitly asks for "link status notifications").  I 
>> could probably add that; the question is how large a change it is -- does it 
>> exceed what's feasible for a patch.  I may still do that, but at least for 
>> now the above should be helpful.
> 
> Followup: I created a patch that implements the "wake up when the queue goes 
> not-full".  Or more precisely, it wakes up the process whenever an ack is 
> received; that covers the probem case and probably doesn't create many other 
> wakeups since the program is unlikely to be sleeping otherwise.
> 
> The attached patch script does the job.  This is for RSTS V10.1.  I will take 
> a look at RSTS 9.6; the patch is unlikely to apply there (offsets probably 
> don't match) but the concept will apply there too.  I don't have other 
> DECnet/E versions, let alone source listings which is what's needed to create 
> the patch.
> 
> With this patch, you can run at full emulation speed, with the default queue 
> limit (5).  In fact, I would recommend setting that limit; if you make the 
> queue limit significantly larger, the patch doesn't help and things are still 
> slow.  I suspect that comes from overrunning the queue limits at the 
> receiving end. (Note that DECnet/E leaves the flow control choice to the 
> application, and most use "no" flow control, i.e., on/off only which isn't 
> effective if the sender can overrun the buffer pool of the receiver.)
> 
> To apply the patch, give it to ONLPAT and select the monitor SIL (just  
> will give  you the installed one).  Or you can do it with the PATCH option at 
> boot time, in that case enter the information manually.  The manual will 
> spell this out some more, I expect.
> 
> I have no idea if this issue can appear on real PDP-11 systems.  Possibly, if 
> you have a fast CPU, a fast network (Ethernet) and enough latency to make the 
> issue visible (more than a few milliseconds but way under a second).  In any 
> case, it's unlikely to hurt, and it clearly helps a great deal in emulated 
> systems.
> 
>   paul
> 
> 
> 

RE: Cromemco Dazzler 40th birthday presents...

[Bill Sudbrink]

fritz_chwo...@web.de wrote:
> Look at :
> http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/manuals/dazzler/index.html

Thanks.

Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware?

[geneb]

On Tue, 3 May 2016, Liam Proven wrote:


On 3 May 2016 at 05:24, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

The hardware's not there to run 16-bit code natively in 64 bit
mode.



I think you mean software?

It is possible to run Windows 7's XP Mode under Windows 8.x -- I've done it.

http://www.howtogeek.com/171395/how-to-get-windows-xp-mode-on-windows-8/

This *might* work on Win10.

The issue is that with 64 bit versions of windows, the 16 bit thunking 
layer isn't present.  The simplest way to do this is to grab VMWare Player 
(free download) and then create a Win98 VM.  Google can point to a number 
of downloadable, ready-to-run Win98SE VMs.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware?

[Liam Proven]

On 3 May 2016 at 05:24, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> The hardware's not there to run 16-bit code natively in 64 bit
> mode.


I think you mean software?

It is possible to run Windows 7's XP Mode under Windows 8.x -- I've done it.

http://www.howtogeek.com/171395/how-to-get-windows-xp-mode-on-windows-8/

This *might* work on Win10.

I have also successfully run the XP Mode VM using VirtualBox under
Ubuntu; I described how to here:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/04/10/how_to_run_xp_on_new_windows/

However, this requires either a licence key or stripping the
copy-protection out of Windows.

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: Ideas for running a VB4 application on modern hardware?

[Liam Proven]

On 2 May 2016 at 20:43,   wrote:
> If you have the source, you're also in pretty good shape.


The OP has specifically stated that he does not have the source, and
that the company which wrote the app no longer exists.

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: Cromemco Dazzler 40th birthday presents...

[fritz_chwo...@web.de]

Am 03.05.2016 um 04:06 schrieb Bill Sudbrink:

Check it out:

http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/dazzler.html

More to come.

Bill S.






Look at :
http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/manuals/dazzler/index.html



greetings

Re: Plan9 and Inferno (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from)

[Liam Proven]

On 29 April 2016 at 16:51, Brian L. Stuart  wrote:
> On Thu, 4/28/16, Liam Proven  wrote:
 The efforts to fix and improve Unix -- Plan 9, Inferno -- forgotten.
>>
>> It is, true, but it's a sideline now. And the steps made by Inferno
>> seem to have had even less impact. I'd like to see the 2 merged back
>> into 1.
>
> Actually, it's best not to think of Inferno as a successor to Plan 9, but
> as an offshoot.

Understood.

I *think* I understand the motivations for wanting Plan 9 over
Inferno, for example retaining fondness for native CPU compilation
over VMs -- but TBH, given the relatively small influence of either
platform on the wider world, and the close relationship between them,
I don't see there being sufficient differentiation to keep both alive.

But I do not understand the OSes, the communities and so on well
enough; mine is an outsider's perspective.

>   The real story has more to do with Lucent internal
> dynamics than to do with attempting to develop a better research
> platform.  Plan 9 has always been a good platform for research, and
> the fact that it's the most pleasant development environment I've
> ever used is a nice plus.  However, Inferno was created to be a
> platform for products.

Well, yes, but Java won that war, ISTM. And now that Java is losing
that niche too, it's time to strike out for new ground, IMHO.

> The Inferno kernel was basically forked from
> the 2nd Edition Plan9 kernel, and naturally there are some places
> that differ from the current 4th Edition Plan 9 kernel.  However, a
> number of the differences have been resolved over the years, and
> the same guy does most of the maintenance of the compiler suite that's
> used for native Inferno builds and for Plan 9.  Although you usually
> can't just drop driver code from one kernel into the other, the differences
> are not so great as to make the port difficult.  So both still exist and
> both still get some development as people who care decide to make
> changes, but they've never really been in a position to merge.
>
> And BTW, if you like the objectives of the Limbo language in Inferno,
> you'll find a lot of the ideas and lessons learned from it in Go.  After
> all, Rob Pike and Ken Thompson were two of the main people behind
> Go and, of course, they had been at the labs, primarily working on
> Plan 9, before moving to Google.

I am sure you're right but as a non-programmer myself, I'm not very
interested in new languages for the traditional Unix stack. It's the
OS stuff that interests me personally.



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