Re: Looking for PDP-8 G603 "Memory Selector Matrix" boards (or dec T-2052 transformers)

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 04/15/2017 08:15 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:

Do we know who made the transformers originally? I maintain some old
industrial hardware designs that used pulse transformers from the
mid-60's and I may still have catalogs and/or data sheets.


Some of the big names are Pulse Engineering and Rhombus 
Industries. I think DEC used Pulse Engineering in a lot of 
PDP-11 and VAX vintage stuff, so maybe they used them back 
in the PDP-8 days, too.


Jon

Re: Silent 700 thermal paper

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

My experience with thermal fax paper is that printed copy is best
preserved.  I discovered a couple of years ago, that manufacturers'
faxed copies of data from the early 1990s have faded almost to
unreadability.

Not black, but faded, as with disappearing ink

Storage was in a file folder in a file cabinet in temperature and
humidity-controlled environment not exposed to light for very long at all

I've had blue-line copies similarly fade after about 40 years.

Thermofax, anyone?

--Chuck

Re: Silent 700 thermal paper

[Chris Elmquist via cctalk]

On April 15, 2017 8:23:18 PM CDT, Paul Berger via cctalk 
 wrote:
>It would not hurt it to try, at worst the printout would be faint, how 
>well the paper survives depends a lot on how it was stored.  Direct 
>sunlight definitely will degrade the paper that is why it is often in 
>black bags.  If the paper is 8.5" wide you could use the roll paper for
>
>thermal fax machines, that paper should be readily available at office 
>supply stores.
>
>Paul.
>
>
>On 2017-04-15 10:05 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
>> How long does it last?
>>
>> I have two Silent 700 terminals that have not been used since the
>> mid-80's and a box of thermal paper. Is the thermal paper any good or
>> should I get some more before I try to play with the terminals.
>>
>> Is paper that wide available new and not NOS? I bought some TTY paper
>> and it was NOS and so it is just about to disintegrate before I use
>> it.
>>
>> -chuck

I have used new thermal FAX paper purchased at Staples within the last two 
years in both Silent 700 model 725 (first generation) and model 745 (second 
gen) terminals with great success.

I've found that even if the old paper hasn't darkened due to sunlight or more 
significantly, heat, age makes it brittle and so I decided not to risk it being 
too stiff or abrasive and damaging the print head. YMMV.

Chris N0JCF

-- 
Chris Elmquist

Re: Silent 700 thermal paper

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sat, 15 Apr 2017, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:

It would not hurt it to try, at worst the printout would be faint, how well 
the paper survives depends a lot on how it was stored.  Direct sunlight 
definitely will degrade the paper that is why it is often in black bags. If 
the paper is 8.5" wide you could use the roll paper for thermal fax machines, 
that paper should be readily available at office supply stores.


Sheets of thermal paper can also be used (Gavilan printer used those, as 
did some of the fax machines)


Expect the outer wraps of the roll to be the first to go bad, so you'll 
probably have to discard the outer fraction of each roll.

Re: Silent 700 thermal paper

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

It would not hurt it to try, at worst the printout would be faint, how 
well the paper survives depends a lot on how it was stored.  Direct 
sunlight definitely will degrade the paper that is why it is often in 
black bags.  If the paper is 8.5" wide you could use the roll paper for 
thermal fax machines, that paper should be readily available at office 
supply stores.


Paul.


On 2017-04-15 10:05 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:

How long does it last?

I have two Silent 700 terminals that have not been used since the
mid-80's and a box of thermal paper. Is the thermal paper any good or
should I get some more before I try to play with the terminals.

Is paper that wide available new and not NOS? I bought some TTY paper
and it was NOS and so it is just about to disintegrate before I use
it.

-chuck

Re: Looking for PDP-8 G603 "Memory Selector Matrix" boards (or dec T-2052 transformers)

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Do we know who made the transformers originally? I maintain some old
industrial hardware designs that used pulse transformers from the
mid-60's and I may still have catalogs and/or data sheets.

-chuck


On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk
 wrote:
> Using a t-2052 build up a test fixture, a pulse generator and a
> oscilloscope and if have access to one a high bandwidth current probe. Use
> the 2052s you have, record the curves etc and then make up some test
> transformers.
>
> -Pete component engineer in a former life.
>
> On Apr 13, 2017 3:36 PM, "Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk" <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> I realize it's a long shot, but does anyone have:
>>>
>>
>> - Any spare T-2052s (or know of a source)
>>> - Any idea what the T-2052 *was* so I can try to replace them.  I haven't
>>> found much detail as of yet.
>>>
>>
>> Good news on this front!
>>
>> I had previously obtained a data sheet for the T2037, a similar
>> transformer.
>>
>> I extracted 4 each T2037 and T2052 from a broken G228, and today I was
>> able to get measurements off of them:
>>
>> T2037:
>> A: 230uH, 170 mohm primary, 42.9uH 100 mohm secondary
>> B: 220/170, 41.6/100
>> C: 232/170, 43.8/60
>> D: 231/170, 43/80
>>
>> These are consistent with 16 turns and 7 turns of #33 wire, wound on an
>> FT37-77 toroid per the instructions on the data sheet, and also with the
>> 220 uH /43 uH 20% specs that appear there.
>>
>> Here are the T2052 measurements:
>> A: 597/320, 597/320
>> B: 530/270, 530/270
>> C: 34/1040, 24/680
>> D: 551/280, 551/280
>>
>> Ignoring "C", which is quite likely broken in some way, these are
>> consistent with a 25 turn 1:1 transformer.  I'm not sure what they are
>> wound with, as #33 wire should give a lower DC resistance.
>> (#34 is closer.  It's also possible that they changed cores, but I suspect
>> that they are also wound on FT37-77 cores.)
>>
>> It's possible that a fairly standard modern 1:1 pulse transformer could be
>> substituted.  The 78615/2JC, for instance is 500uH, 1:1 if you ignore the
>> center tap pins.
>>
>>Vince
>>

Silent 700 thermal paper

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

How long does it last?

I have two Silent 700 terminals that have not been used since the
mid-80's and a box of thermal paper. Is the thermal paper any good or
should I get some more before I try to play with the terminals.

Is paper that wide available new and not NOS? I bought some TTY paper
and it was NOS and so it is just about to disintegrate before I use
it.

-chuck

C, STL, primitive languages that live on and on ... Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

There are a lot of smart people here with wide ranging experiences, so
I like to ask questions from time to time that get more to philosophy.
So "If C is so evil why is it so successful" was one of those
questions.

The answer I see is that it is the path of least resistance to the
most successful outcome in the time horizon of the effort.

Or, it gets the job done.

Personally, I am stuck in the machine control world where things like
symbolic names and type checking are sometimes non-existant. And I
wonder why.

SIL-3 and PLe with stone knives and bearskins.

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:
> On 04/11/2017 07:03 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
>> The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting.

> You might find more fertile ground plowing the plctalk.net forum when
> your questions relate to the STL/SCL/FBD/LAD/CSF area.

I am familiar with STL (and some of the others). My question was not
for help. I was trying to present a contrast between the nit-picking
the list was doing about C and that fact that a huge amount of mission
critical programming is done in languages that are essentially machine
code.

It was a ham fisted attempt. Don't post after too many high ABV IPA's.

> FWIW, "STL"  in Siemens-talk is an acronym for "Statement List".  Why it
> isn't "SL" is anyone's guess.

Probably for the same reason that PZD is process data.

> --Chuck

-chuck

Nat Semi 32016 Genix backup floppies available

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

As I may have mentioned a while back, I have dug out my 
backup floppy disks from my National Semiconductor Genix 
system.  In 1984 or so, I built a clone of a Logical 
Microcomputer 32016 system and copied the OS.  I used it for 
a while, but it was maddeningly slow. This system used a 
Multibus backplane and a Konan Taisho disk controller, that 
could handle MFM floppies and hard drives.  This backup is 
from my copy of the system, and so has a few tidbits of 
mildly interesting stuff.  One thing is I was helping Steve 
Ciarcia of Circuit Cellar magazine answer his mail, and as 
this was my only system with 5" floppies, I used it for 
that.  So, this backup probably has some rather amusing 
replies to the totally INSANE questions he got.  One of my 
favorites was "Steve, can you jot down on the back of an 
envelope the schematic for an IBM PC so I can hand wire 
it?"  I also wrote a VERY BAD driver for a Versatec printer. 
It worked, but was insanely inefficient in graphics mode, 
and took a half hour per page to print.  Worked fine in text 
mode, though.


I don't remember what compilers we had on this, obviously C, 
and maybe Pascal and FORTRAN.


Since it worked fine to read and write PC compatible 
floppies, the floppy format should be easy to read.  But, I 
think this "backup" is a block by block dump of the file 
system.  Notes on the floppies show :

cp dc(0,0) on the first,
cp dc(0,800) on the second, etc.

So, if anyone wants to try to recover the files off this, 
I'd be glad to donate the set.  It appears to be 2 boxes of 
floppies, 28 in total.  I have some more floppies that seem 
to be the last half of an earlier backup, with less info on 
how it was written.


Thanks,

Jon

Re: Harry Huskey, Bob Taylor -- sad news

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

some, but not enough

Harry did an oral history at CHM when he became a fellow, as did Bob

On 4/15/17 8:34 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

> Wow, that's amazing.  I had no idea he was still around!  I hope he wrote up 
> some memoirs or left stories.
> 
> Jon

Re: Harry Huskey, Bob Taylor -- sad news

[Kirk Davis via cctalk]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/technology/robert-taylor-innovator-who-shaped-modern-computing-dies-at-85.html?_r=0
 


> On Apr 14, 2017, at 10:00 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> Two computer industry pioneers died in the past week.
> 
> Harry Huskey worked on ENIAC, the Pilot ACE, SWAC, and the Bendix G-15. He 
> was also known for helping overseas universities start their CS programs. 
> Harry was 101.
> 
> Bob Taylor was an ARPAnet pioneer and Xerox PARC executive. He was 85.
> 
> 
> 
> Evan Koblentz, director
> Vintage Computer Federation
> a 501(c)3 educational non-profit
> 
> e...@vcfed.org
> (646) 546-
> 
> www.vcfed.org
> facebook.com/vcfederation
> twitter.com/vcfederation

Re: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:56 AM, william degnan via cctalk
 wrote:
>>
>>
>> Rainbow Memory Extension Option Installation Guide:EK-PCMKE-IN
>>
>> …Two versions of the memory extension option are available: a 64 K byte
>> option (part number PC1XX-AA) and a 192K byte option (part number
>> PC1XX-AB). The memory option is installed in the J6 connector …
>> …   Both versions of the memory extension option use the same printed
>> circuit board etch and the same type of 6kK x 1 bit memory chips. … the
>> 192K byte version contains twenty-seven 64K x 1 bit chips arranged as three
>> 64K byte memory stacks. ...
>>
>>
>> From my Rainbow Owner’s manual 1st ed. Sept 1983, Appx. C, Table
>> C-1
>> …
>> 64K byte memory board option:   PC1XX-AC
>> 256K byte memory board option:  PC1XX-AD

I think that have what looks like the AD option, but it only brings my
Rainbow 100A up to 256k. I bought the 100A recently based on a seller
telling me it was a 100B. Grump. But at least its floppy controller
and drive are in much better shape than my old ones, so I have some
parts now. Just not sure what to do with them, but they may become
spare parts, which I might be willing to part with. Not sure yet.

Also, the boards themselves have numbers like 53xx and don't list
the actual part. So googling for them often involves googling for that
number because it's what sellers have easily available to them...

>> 64K byte memory component kit (9 chips) PC1XX-AY
>> 256K byte memory component kit (9 chips)PC1XX-AZ
>> …
>>
>> Hope  this helps.
>
>
>
> Just chiming in...I am the person who provided Warner with the VENIX
> disks.  I probably have more RAM than I need in my machines (I have three
> and I think I have an A, B, and a regular Rainbow here.  All of this talk
> has peaked my interest to set mine up and see if the new Rainbow I just got
> this week works.  In addition to VENIX I have a lot of other disks and
> parts.

Cool! I've had much luck since we talked last. I'm 5 sectors away from
having all the disks read. Well, and understanding the encoding used
on the boot disk to store the serial number in a difficult to
replicate manner. At least I think that's what's going on. See
http://bsdimp.blogspot.com/2017/04/rainbow-100-venix86r-disks-found.html
for a few details.

Unfortunately, the 5 sectors are on User disks 2 and 3, so are early
in the series, which may make all the other readable disks useless.
Not sure if there was compression at the time, so maybe it will just
corrupt a few files. This is out of 16 400k disks, so it's a quite
high percentage for them being so old.

Btw, anybody know what might be on an "Enhanced BWS Supplementary
disk"? A quick google search didn't bring up anything, but it's a
Version 7 Unix. I'm hoping it's the compiler, in which case I may be
able to reconstruct the missing material from the V7 sources.

Warner

Re: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory

[william degnan via cctalk]

>
>
> Rainbow Memory Extension Option Installation Guide:EK-PCMKE-IN
>
> …Two versions of the memory extension option are available: a 64 K byte
> option (part number PC1XX-AA) and a 192K byte option (part number
> PC1XX-AB). The memory option is installed in the J6 connector …
> …   Both versions of the memory extension option use the same printed
> circuit board etch and the same type of 6kK x 1 bit memory chips. … the
> 192K byte version contains twenty-seven 64K x 1 bit chips arranged as three
> 64K byte memory stacks. ...
>
>
> From my Rainbow Owner’s manual 1st ed. Sept 1983, Appx. C, Table
> C-1
> …
> 64K byte memory board option:   PC1XX-AC
> 256K byte memory board option:  PC1XX-AD
> 64K byte memory component kit (9 chips) PC1XX-AY
> 256K byte memory component kit (9 chips)PC1XX-AZ
> …
>
> Hope  this helps.



Just chiming in...I am the person who provided Warner with the VENIX
disks.  I probably have more RAM than I need in my machines (I have three
and I think I have an A, B, and a regular Rainbow here.  All of this talk
has peaked my interest to set mine up and see if the new Rainbow I just got
this week works.  In addition to VENIX I have a lot of other disks and
parts.

Not saying I plan to sell anything in particular, but once I assess my
systems and get one good maxed out working system going I will probably
sell off the spare parts.

Bill

Re: MISE and M3SE

[Peter Cetinski via cctalk]

> On Apr 15, 2017, at 11:05 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Well, now that I know there are TRS-80 afficianados here i wonder if there
> are any MISE/M3SE experts?  I have both running here now and really like
> them.  But, back in the "good ole days" I was priomarily a DOSPLUS user
> with a little NEWDOS80 once in a while.  I was wondering if it is possible
> to get either or both of these DOSes working with the MISE & M3SE.  
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> bill

Bill, there is a MISE yahoo group that Peter Bartlett maintains and actively 
supports so you may want to ask there.  But, I can tell you that MISE/M3SE 
utilize quite a bit of custom driver code so it would be a significant effort 
to support other OSes.  However, its probably best to ask the creator himself.

Re: Harry Huskey, Bob Taylor -- sad news

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 04/15/2017 12:00 AM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote:

Two computer industry pioneers died in the past week.

Harry Huskey worked on ENIAC, the Pilot ACE, SWAC, and the 
Bendix G-15. He was also known for helping overseas 
universities start their CS programs. Harry was 101.


Wow, that's amazing.  I had no idea he was still around!  I 
hope he wrote up some memoirs or left stories.


Jon

MISE and M3SE

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Well, now that I know there are TRS-80 afficianados here i wonder if there
are any MISE/M3SE experts?  I have both running here now and really like
them.  But, back in the "good ole days" I was priomarily a DOSPLUS user
with a little NEWDOS80 once in a while.  I was wondering if it is possible
to get either or both of these DOSes working with the MISE & M3SE.  

Any suggestions?

bill

Re: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory

[Tapley, Mark via cctalk]

On Apr 13, 2017, at 3:20 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk  
wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 12:00 PM, shad via cctech
>  wrote:
>> Hello,
>> I'm in the pretty same condition, I have a Rainbow 100B without memory
>> expansion.
>> Not sure however, about the correct board number, which would fit the 100B.
>> What should I search for?
> 
> The DEC part numbers for these are PC1XX-AY (128k) and PC1XX-AZ
> (256k). I'm not sure what the board numbers are, and some auctions
> list those instead.
> 
> They are the same board. There's 4 switches on the board. One for each
> of the 3 banks to select between 64kbit chips and 256kbit chips. You
> want 4164 or 41256 for the board. It's super easy to upgrade (I bought
> a AY back in the day and then 18 months later I bought 27 41256 chips
> and swapped them out in about 10-15 minutes.
> 
> I'm not sure what the 100A needs. I have no experience with the 100A hardware.
> 
> Warner

I”m pretty sure the PC100A takes the same board. I believe I have a 100A set up 
like that, but I’ll have to check when I get back (from vacation) in a week or 
so (unless you get a definitive answer before that). Meantime if you spot one 
of those boards, obviously it would be good to grab it; sounds like there are 
100B users on-list who would be happy to give it a home if I’m wrong about it 
working in the 100A. 

Meantime, from my Rainbow Technical Manual copyright 1984 scan (ask, I 
have a fair number of these documents) which says it refers to model PC100A:

Rainbow Memory Extension Option Installation Guide:EK-PCMKE-IN

…Two versions of the memory extension option are available: a 64 K byte option 
(part number PC1XX-AA) and a 192K byte option (part number PC1XX-AB). The 
memory option is installed in the J6 connector …
…   Both versions of the memory extension option use the same printed 
circuit board etch and the same type of 6kK x 1 bit memory chips. … the 192K 
byte version contains twenty-seven 64K x 1 bit chips arranged as three 64K byte 
memory stacks. ...


From my Rainbow Owner’s manual 1st ed. Sept 1983, Appx. C, Table C-1
…
64K byte memory board option:   PC1XX-AC
256K byte memory board option:  PC1XX-AD
64K byte memory component kit (9 chips) PC1XX-AY
256K byte memory component kit (9 chips)PC1XX-AZ
…

Hope  this helps.