Re: Teletype 43

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 5/23/2017 11:37 PM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote:

Since
those are not easy to dig up now, what options are there?  Also,
because there's often plenty of pigment, what oil/solvents are good to
wrest some of that pigment back out of a dried ribbon?

That is a question I'd like to determine.  Google was little help outside of 
calls
to try WD40.
We WD40'ed ASR33 ribbons at the Computer Mini lab @UMR till the material 
was white and we were printing with residual WD40 on the fabric.  On a 
rebuild of the machine in question, we drained off 1/2 pint of oil from 
the felt in the bottom, from both the ink operation, and just making it go.


Not sure why they didn't buy a new ribbon, but once it was rebuilt after 
4 years of use, it printed fantastic quality print with a new ribbon.


I don't know the formulas for ink but it was persuaded to continue 
printing with cloth / silk ribbons I've seen then and since.


thanks
Jim

Re: Re: Directory of old computer collectors

[Randy Dawson via cctalk]

Hi Jim,


Anybody that is paranoid about telling their location and the computer 
dinosaurs running in their basement needs a head alignment.


Another case of some guy over-estimating the worth of the junk we hold on to.  
It is zero, of value to only us that play with it.


And our numbers are diminishing every day.


Randy







From: jim stephens 
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 11:26 PM
To: Randy Dawson; steven stengel
Subject: Fwd: Re: Directory of old computer collectors


Randy,
I'm sort of running interference for STeve on the list.  Since his email is 
cc'd here and he's a subscriber I suspect has seen this.

the tost...@yahoo.com is his email for these computer 
matters.

People are getting a bit torqued out over non issues, I think, thanks for 
chiming in.  Hopefully we can all help each others collecting efforts with a 
bit of visibility.

thanks
jim


 Forwarded Message 
Subject:Re: Directory of old computer collectors
Date:   Wed, 24 May 2017 05:19:41 +
From:   Randy Dawson 
To: jim stephens , steven 
stengel , General Discussion: 
On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 




Hi Jim,


add me to your list.


I am in Thousand Oaks, CA (Los Angeles area).


I have a Tektronix 4051 vector graphics computer running, just BASIC games at 
the moment. I have  a Compaq Model 1 with the PC-IDE flash setup, running 
Autocad, Versacad, Dr. Halo, Turbo-C, MS-Fortran.


I am in conversation with some Tek guys to add a modern RAM flash drive to the 
4051 to replace the DC300 tape.  We are about to build some PCBs for it, let me 
know if you have a 4051.


Randy



From: cctalk 
 on behalf 
of steven stengel via cctalk 

Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:05 PM
To: jim stephens; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors

I will post anything you want me to, just tell me.
email is not necessary, a link or website will do fine as well.The map is 
intended to be a method to see who's where for assistance, trading, meet-ups, 
etc.There's hundreds of people here, but few know where each other live, I 
suppose.



  From: jim stephens via cctalk 

 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
 Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:09 AM
 Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors



On 5/22/2017 11:06 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:29:22 -0400
> william degnan via cctalk 
>  wrote:
>
>> can you send a link to the people who are on the list so they can see
>> their listing?  I personally don't mind as long as any record that
>> includes me personally does not include my email address or phone
>> number.I much prefer to send people to my web page contact form.
> Folks who are on the list should have the opportunity to approve what
> will and will not be posted about them. That's not only a legal
> requirement in many States, but also common courtesy.
>
> Regards,
> Lyle
You do get that this isn't cctalk, but one that people had already sent
contact info for.  I sent him revised publishable contact info for the
list.  I realize he probably made the request w/o 40 pages of consent
forms to read, but he seems to just be asking to allow him to publish
from that list, and a note here for anyone who didn't see it in their
email, since the respondents came from here.

thanks
jim

>> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:19 PM, steven stengel via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> In the past, I requested the email address and home city of old
>>> computer collectors to a compile a list for my own purposes.
>>> Over 120 people had responded, which is great! Now I want to make
>>> this list PUBLIC with a Google map showing everyones location,
>>> email, and collecting preferences.
>>> Since I don't have anyone's explicit permission to publish their
>>> information, I am now asking.
>>> Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on
>>> the public webpage.
>>> Thanks-
>>> Steven Stengelhttp://oldcomputers.net/
>>>
>>>
>
>

RE: Teletype 43

[Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Brain
> via cctalk
> Sent: 24 May 2017 06:14
> To: Ethan Dicks ; General Discussion: On-Topic and
> Off-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: Teletype 43
> 
> On 5/23/2017 10:45 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> > Back in the day, there was a re-inking product, the Mac Inker.
> I have a Re-inker, though not exactly like the Mac Inker, but the Model
> 43 has a built in "Mac Inker"-like inking system.  It's a small loop of ribbon
> with a large felt round ink pad in the cartridge.  So, if I can get some ink 
> into
> the felt, I should be OK.
> > Since
> > those are not easy to dig up now, what options are there?  Also,
> > because there's often plenty of pigment, what oil/solvents are good to
> > wrest some of that pigment back out of a dried ribbon?
> That is a question I'd like to determine.  Google was little help outside of 
> calls
> to try WD40.
> 
> Jim

Some have used stamp pad ink. Some stamp pad ink doesn't dry out..

Dave

Re: Kryoflux or Catweasle

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 05/23/2017 05:31 PM, Andrew Harvey via cctalk wrote:
> I don't think Indivudual Computers make the catweasle any more. They never
> released a 64bit Windows driver for it.

In point of advancing technology, one can purchase a STM32F4 development
board with USB, UART, microSD, battery-backed RTC and oodles of timers
and I/Os as well as a TFT interface for less than $12 shipped.  Almost
all I/Os are 5V tolerant--and can be configured as open-drain if
desired.  192KB of fast SRAM and a CPU running at about 168MHz.
Perfectly capable of doing sampling of floppy output.

Why would anyone want a Catweasel at this stage?  Technology has moved
past that.

--Chuck

Re: Kryoflux or Catweasle

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 05/23/2017 05:31 PM, Andrew Harvey via cctalk wrote:
> I don't think Indivudual Computers make the catweasle any more. They never
> released a 64bit Windows driver for it.

In point of advancing technology, one can purchase a STM32F4 development
board with USB, UART, microSD, battery-backed RTC and oodles of timers
and I/Os as well as a TFT interface for less than $12 shipped.  Almost
all I/Os are 5V tolerant--and can be configured as open-drain if
desired.  192KB of fast SRAM and a CPU running at about 168MHz.
Perfectly capable of doing sampling of floppy output.

Why would anyone want a Catweasel at this stage?  Technology has moved
past that.

--Chuck

Re: Directory of old computer collectors

[Randy Dawson via cctalk]

Hi Jim,


add me to your list.


I am in Thousand Oaks, CA (Los Angeles area).


I have a Tektronix 4051 vector graphics computer running, just BASIC games at 
the moment. I have  a Compaq Model 1 with the PC-IDE flash setup, running 
Autocad, Versacad, Dr. Halo, Turbo-C, MS-Fortran.


I am in conversation with some Tek guys to add a modern RAM flash drive to the 
4051 to replace the DC300 tape.  We are about to build some PCBs for it, let me 
know if you have a 4051.


Randy



From: cctalk  on behalf of steven stengel via 
cctalk 
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:05 PM
To: jim stephens; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors

I will post anything you want me to, just tell me.
email is not necessary, a link or website will do fine as well.The map is 
intended to be a method to see who's where for assistance, trading, meet-ups, 
etc.There's hundreds of people here, but few know where each other live, I 
suppose.



  From: jim stephens via cctalk 
 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
 Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:09 AM
 Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors



On 5/22/2017 11:06 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:29:22 -0400
> william degnan via cctalk  wrote:
>
>> can you send a link to the people who are on the list so they can see
>> their listing?  I personally don't mind as long as any record that
>> includes me personally does not include my email address or phone
>> number.I much prefer to send people to my web page contact form.
> Folks who are on the list should have the opportunity to approve what
> will and will not be posted about them. That's not only a legal
> requirement in many States, but also common courtesy.
>
> Regards,
> Lyle
You do get that this isn't cctalk, but one that people had already sent
contact info for.  I sent him revised publishable contact info for the
list.  I realize he probably made the request w/o 40 pages of consent
forms to read, but he seems to just be asking to allow him to publish
from that list, and a note here for anyone who didn't see it in their
email, since the respondents came from here.

thanks
jim

>> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:19 PM, steven stengel via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> In the past, I requested the email address and home city of old
>>> computer collectors to a compile a list for my own purposes.
>>> Over 120 people had responded, which is great! Now I want to make
>>> this list PUBLIC with a Google map showing everyones location,
>>> email, and collecting preferences.
>>> Since I don't have anyone's explicit permission to publish their
>>> information, I am now asking.
>>> Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on
>>> the public webpage.
>>> Thanks-
>>> Steven Stengelhttp://oldcomputers.net/
>>>
>>>
>
>

Re: Teletype 43

[Jim Brain via cctalk]

On 5/23/2017 10:45 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:

Back in the day, there was a re-inking product, the Mac Inker.
I have a Re-inker, though not exactly like the Mac Inker, but the Model 
43 has a built in "Mac Inker"-like inking system.  It's a small loop of 
ribbon with a large felt round ink pad in the cartridge.  So, if I can 
get some ink into the felt, I should be OK.

Since
those are not easy to dig up now, what options are there?  Also,
because there's often plenty of pigment, what oil/solvents are good to
wrest some of that pigment back out of a dried ribbon?
That is a question I'd like to determine.  Google was little help 
outside of calls to try WD40.


Jim

Re: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 5/23/2017 5:56 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote:

  Mercury
"bouncing around" in her body for almost a year before she finally passed.
It also "went through" the back of her hand without making some awful
lesion.  1.3 grams?!  I've always gone with the mental crutch that a paper
clip weighs about 1/2 gram.  So almost three paper clips "slipped" into her
body.  Wow.
Useful to note this is not metallic mercury.  It was dimethyl mercury, 
which meant that the methyl radical tagged on the mercury was very 
friendly with the material on the gloves she wore, and with her skin and 
dragged the heavy metal rapidly to her blood stream. And eventually to 
lots of places and killed her.


Metallic mercury isn't anything you want to ingest, but it won't go thru 
your skin unless it has some other compound to drag it, or unless you 
are very unlucky and jam it into an open wound.


Thanks
Jim

Re: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)

[Cameron Kaiser via cctalk]

> The Wikipedia article on Dr. Wetterhahn seems to indicate 
> this went a lot slower than we were told in the seminar.
> Not sure who to trust, there.

The NEJM article seems to say it was also not a precipitous decline.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- The cost of living has not adversely affected its popularity. --

Re: Kryoflux or Catweasle

[Andrew Harvey via cctalk]

I don't think Indivudual Computers make the catweasle any more. They never
released a 64bit Windows driver for it.

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 10:19 AM, jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Anyone know of where these can be had now days?
>
> thanks
> jim
>

Re: Teletype 43

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 9:20 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk
 wrote:
> On 5/23/2017 1:07 AM, dave.g4...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> You probably need a null modem cable.
>
> I had one (and used it), but not all null modem cables are evidently the
> same :-)  I soldered up a loopback as you suggested, and the unit dropped
> into DATA MODE on startup.

Superb!

> The printer ribbon has less life left in it than I anticipated, but a list
> member is helping me, so it should be good to go after a deep cleaning and a
> light oiling.

Back in the day, there was a re-inking product, the Mac Inker.  Since
those are not easy to dig up now, what options are there?  Also,
because there's often plenty of pigment, what oil/solvents are good to
wrest some of that pigment back out of a dried ribbon?

-ethan

Re: Fixing flakey floppies

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 05/23/2017 05:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, 23 May 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:

> In addition to cleaning the heads, look at the parts that slide when the
> head moves.  The old grease is probably in bad shape by now.  With a
> little solvent (WD-40 is NOT a solvent), clean the old grease and
> re-lube them.  I used to use a molybdenum disulfide grease that I had
> around - I have no idea what the "RIGHT" grease would be.
> 
> Teac 55s don't often need the radial alignment adjusted, but it could
> happen.  The failure after track 35 could be alignment, but it could
> also be the grease.

Caked or dry grease can even occur on NOS drives.  I was unpacking some
new Samsung SFB-321 3.5" drives.   They didn't pass diagnostics.  Popped
them open and the leadscrew grease had turned yellow and caked.  Cleaned
the grease off with some Perc, put a very thin film of silicone grease
on the leadscrew and the drives were good to go.

You can see if you've got an alignment problem if you format a floppy in
the suspected drive and you can read it from end to end without error.

IMD is good for this sort of thing.

--Chuck

Re: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 05/23/2017 01:57 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote:

I have a hard time getting my head around Dr. Wetterhahn's poisoning.  How
many molecules of the toxin could have possibly entered her body?
How many molecules does it take to kill or fatally disable a cell?  After it
does its damage, does the molecule become available again to do
more damage?  How many cells in her body were actually killed?  Do the
molecules somehow target the cells required to kill an individual?
If you killed just the "right" cells, how many cells does it take to kill a
person?

Yeah, this was sure a wake up call!  I work in a chemistry 
department, so we all have to go through a 1 hour
lab safety seminar every year.  This case has been pretty 
strongly pushed in those.  She did everything everybody 
thought was sufficient to protect her.  Apparently, nobody 
knew that methyl mercury could just soak through whatever 
gloves she was wearing so quickly.  As I understand it, she 
immediately saw the drop of stuff drip on the glove, and she 
completed what she was doing and removed the glove in much 
less than one MINUTE!


Ummm, just a couple cells might be enough to kill you, if 
they stopped your breathing or made you blood pressure go 
haywire (high or low).  But, she felt sick within minutes of 
the exposure and went steadily downhill after that.  So, she 
apparently absorbed a lot of the methyl mercury, which WAS 
known to be super-toxic and readily absorbed.


The Wikipedia article on Dr. Wetterhahn seems to indicate 
this went a lot slower than we were told in the seminar.

Not sure who to trust, there.

Jon

Re: Teletype 43

[Jim Brain via cctalk]

On 5/23/2017 8:49 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:


Not a positive sign.
Dodged a bullet.  Model 43 needs RTS, DTR, AND DCD to be active to drop 
into DATA MODE.  Initial null modem cable does not connect DCD to DTR.  
Small fail.  I'll have to mark that cable.


Now, to decide how best to present this unit at VCF-MW and/OR TANDY 
Assembly.


Jim

Re: Teletype 43

[Jim Brain via cctalk]

On 5/23/2017 1:07 AM, dave.g4...@gmail.com wrote:

You probably need a null modem cable.
I had one (and used it), but not all null modem cables are evidently the 
same :-)  I soldered up a loopback as you suggested, and the unit 
dropped into DATA MODE on startup.  I then played with the signals.  The 
unit really does want DCD to be active, as just doing CTS/RTS, DTR/DSR, 
and RX/TX did not do the trick.  Evidently, my null modem cable I had 
tested with previously does not connect DCD. Swapped out for a null 
modem adapter (from our old now deceased friend Radio Shack) and the 
unit works with a new Dell M4800 laptop (so "newer" style +-10V RS232 
levels must be OK.


I appreciate the brain dusting.  I should have known to try that, as I 
spent years doing serial stuff and wrote tcpser, the Hayes Modem 
emulator package for Linux/Windows.  I even have a Telnet BBS cable 
named after me.  Sigh...


The printer ribbon has less life left in it than I anticipated, but a 
list member is helping me, so it should be good to go after a deep 
cleaning and a light oiling.  I did notice the printhead starts to 
stutter at times on long lines, but I *think* it's a function of the 
damage to the ribbon, so we'll troubleshoot that only if it continues 
after ribbon fixes.


The broomhandle looks to be working fine, but if there's a spare paper 
roll pin and/or a platen knob out there looking for a home, let me know.


Jim

RE: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)

[William Sudbrink via cctalk]

Thanks for the reply.  I would never dream of "messing with it."  Even
reading the NEJM article, it still amazes me to think of the Mercury
"bouncing around" in her body for almost a year before she finally passed.
It also "went through" the back of her hand without making some awful
lesion.  1.3 grams?!  I've always gone with the mental crutch that a paper
clip weighs about 1/2 gram.  So almost three paper clips "slipped" into her
body.  Wow.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Fixing flakey floppies

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 23 May 2017, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:

Greetings,
I have three flakey floppies. I wonder if they are worth fixing. Two are
TEAC FD-55FRs. One appears to not report the INDEX mark, the other works
well until around track 35 or so then fails... The third floppy is a 1.2 MB
YD-380. It won't reliably move the head...
I've tried cleaning the heads


In addition to cleaning the heads, look at the parts that slide when the 
head moves.  The old grease is probably in bad shape by now.  With a 
little solvent (WD-40 is NOT a solvent), clean the old grease and re-lube 
them.  I used to use a molybdenum disulfide grease that I had around - I 
have no idea what the "RIGHT" grease would be.


Teac 55s don't often need the radial alignment adjusted, but it could 
happen.  The failure after track 35 could be alignment, but it could also 
be the grease.


When you say "doesn't report index", . . .
in what way?
Many Teac drives use index sensing to determine "drive ready", so there is 
a little more circuitry between the sensor and the interface connector 
than some drives.
Is it complaining about "drive ready" to the controller, . . . 
If you clip on at the index sensor, and manually turn the disk, do you get 
a response as the index hole goes by?  (or use a folded piece of business 
card to block and unblock the sensor without a disk in the drive.



I'm thinking that it's too much hassle and I should just trash them, at 
least the YD-380.  I have 3 1.2MB drives that work. The 55FRs are 
desirable to have working since I can put them in a Rainbow, but even at 
ebay prices it isn't worth more than an hour of my time to rehab.


If the problem(s) are mechanical, and you end up with another drive that 
has a bad board, or vice versa, you will be glad if you kept the dead 
drives.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Fixing flakey floppies

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

Old grease where? I'm not familiar with this issue...

Warner

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 6:16 PM, william degnan 
wrote:

> Warner...get rid of old grease and replace if you have it, like an early
> MAC Apple drive benefits from.  Might help
>
> Bill Degnan
> twitter: billdeg
> vintagecomputer.net
> On May 23, 2017 8:13 PM, "Warner Losh via cctalk" 
> wrote:
>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> I have three flakey floppies. I wonder if they are worth fixing. Two are
>> TEAC FD-55FRs. One appears to not report the INDEX mark, the other works
>> well until around track 35 or so then fails... The third floppy is a 1.2
>> MB
>> YD-380. It won't reliably move the head...
>>
>> I've tried cleaning the heads (which rehabbed a forth drive: a TEAC
>> FD-55GFR) on these drives a few times. I'm thinking that it's too much
>> hassle and I should just trash them, at least the YD-380. I have 3 1.2MB
>> drives that work. The 55FRs are desirable to have working since I can put
>> them in a Rainbow, but even at ebay prices it isn't worth more than an
>> hour
>> of my time to rehab.
>>
>> Before I do that I thought I'd see if there was something simple I can do.
>>
>> I did all my testing with the kryoflux board on a known-good disk (720k
>> 5.25" drive so it tests both sides at the normal density and tests all 80
>> tracks w/o using the high density mode so the FRs can read it).
>>
>> Warner
>>
>

Re: Kryoflux or Catweasle

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

I just bought Kryoflux last month to read some Venix disks.
https://webstore.kryoflux.com/catalog/ is a good place to start.

Once I got a working floppy, and understood the output of dtc, I've been
loving mine. I'd recommend buying a known good floppy drive of the
appropriate flavor if you don't already have one... Once I had a known good
one, I was able to rehab one of the spare ones I had... But it wasn't worth
the hassle...

Warner

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 6:19 PM, jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Anyone know of where these can be had now days?
>
> thanks
> jim
>

Kryoflux or Catweasle

[jim stephens via cctalk]

Anyone know of where these can be had now days?

thanks
jim

Re: Fixing flakey floppies

[william degnan via cctalk]

Warner...get rid of old grease and replace if you have it, like an early
MAC Apple drive benefits from.  Might help

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On May 23, 2017 8:13 PM, "Warner Losh via cctalk" 
wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> I have three flakey floppies. I wonder if they are worth fixing. Two are
> TEAC FD-55FRs. One appears to not report the INDEX mark, the other works
> well until around track 35 or so then fails... The third floppy is a 1.2 MB
> YD-380. It won't reliably move the head...
>
> I've tried cleaning the heads (which rehabbed a forth drive: a TEAC
> FD-55GFR) on these drives a few times. I'm thinking that it's too much
> hassle and I should just trash them, at least the YD-380. I have 3 1.2MB
> drives that work. The 55FRs are desirable to have working since I can put
> them in a Rainbow, but even at ebay prices it isn't worth more than an hour
> of my time to rehab.
>
> Before I do that I thought I'd see if there was something simple I can do.
>
> I did all my testing with the kryoflux board on a known-good disk (720k
> 5.25" drive so it tests both sides at the normal density and tests all 80
> tracks w/o using the high density mode so the FRs can read it).
>
> Warner
>

Fixing flakey floppies

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

Greetings,

I have three flakey floppies. I wonder if they are worth fixing. Two are
TEAC FD-55FRs. One appears to not report the INDEX mark, the other works
well until around track 35 or so then fails... The third floppy is a 1.2 MB
YD-380. It won't reliably move the head...

I've tried cleaning the heads (which rehabbed a forth drive: a TEAC
FD-55GFR) on these drives a few times. I'm thinking that it's too much
hassle and I should just trash them, at least the YD-380. I have 3 1.2MB
drives that work. The 55FRs are desirable to have working since I can put
them in a Rainbow, but even at ebay prices it isn't worth more than an hour
of my time to rehab.

Before I do that I thought I'd see if there was something simple I can do.

I did all my testing with the kryoflux board on a known-good disk (720k
5.25" drive so it tests both sides at the normal density and tests all 80
tracks w/o using the high density mode so the FRs can read it).

Warner

Re: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)

[Cameron Kaiser via cctalk]

> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Wetterhahn
> > http://i.imgur.com/0dXdc.jpg
> >
> > Karen Wetterhahn spilled a drop of a Mercury compound on her latex
> > glove, and died of it 10 months later. 
>
> I have a hard time getting my head around Dr. Wetterhahn's poisoning.  How
> many molecules of the toxin could have possibly entered her body?
> How many molecules does it take to kill or fatally disable a cell?  After it
> does its damage, does the molecule become available again to do
> more damage?  How many cells in her body were actually killed?  Do the
> molecules somehow target the cells required to kill an individual?
> If you killed just the "right" cells, how many cells does it take to kill a
> person?

I can't answer the cell count, but I can give a general answer on the rest.

Mercury interferes with multiple enzymatic processes -- some of them
permanently -- and it can be slow to metabolize (half life of approximately
two months), meaning even a small dose can destroy a lot of cells. The central
nervous system is at greatest risk because these enzymes frequently repair
oxidative damage from metabolic processes, and nerve cells have high rates of
metabolism for processing.

As mentioned, mercury compounds are often far more toxic than the pure form.
Dimethylmercury is especially effective because the extra methyl groups enable
it to very easily enter the body and pass through cell membranes but
only very slowly be eliminated from it; some metabolites can actually bind
to tissues and remain. In this case, as little as 0.1mL is enough to cause
severe or fatal poisoning according to the OSHA bulletins I have here because
it will enter cells and accumulate there. Once it reaches the central
nervous system, that's it. The NEJM article on the Wetterhahn case (read:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199806043382305

) estimates a lethal dose of the compound would be about 5mg/kg body weight.

(As an aside, though, mercury-containing antiseptics such as thiomersal
"Merthiolate" and merbromin can be safe and effective sterilizers in very
low concentrations. They work through the oligodynamic effect. I grew up
with my mother wielding the Mercurochrome whenever I'd get a cut, and I think
it was unfairly removed from the market -- not due to toxicity, but because
it was a generic product with no profit potential, so the pharmas wouldn't
do the studies and the FDA classified it as "non-GRAS" along with a number 
of other orphaned compounds in 1998. It is still very common outside the US.)

In the Wetterhahn case, latex and PVC gloves are also easily penetrated by
the compound (including those she was wearing), affording her no protection
at all when it spilled on her and was able to pass through her skin into the
bloodstream. It is also possible part of her toxic dose came from vapour,
although the fume hood should have reduced this. By the time her symptoms
indicated that she had indeed received a toxic dose, chelation therapy would
have been ineffective, as it indeed was. The estimated total dose per the
NEJM article was about 1.3g of mercury, over three times the lethal amount.

Don't mess with it.

(MD, MPH)

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- You are not ready! -

Re: Directory of old computer collectors

[steven stengel via cctalk]

I will post anything you want me to, just tell me.
email is not necessary, a link or website will do fine as well.The map is 
intended to be a method to see who's where for assistance, trading, meet-ups, 
etc.There's hundreds of people here, but few know where each other live, I 
suppose.



  From: jim stephens via cctalk 
 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:09 AM
 Subject: Re: Directory of old computer collectors
   


On 5/22/2017 11:06 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:29:22 -0400
> william degnan via cctalk  wrote:
>
>> can you send a link to the people who are on the list so they can see
>> their listing?  I personally don't mind as long as any record that
>> includes me personally does not include my email address or phone
>> number.    I much prefer to send people to my web page contact form.
> Folks who are on the list should have the opportunity to approve what
> will and will not be posted about them. That's not only a legal
> requirement in many States, but also common courtesy.
>
> Regards,
> Lyle
You do get that this isn't cctalk, but one that people had already sent 
contact info for.  I sent him revised publishable contact info for the 
list.  I realize he probably made the request w/o 40 pages of consent 
forms to read, but he seems to just be asking to allow him to publish 
from that list, and a note here for anyone who didn't see it in their 
email, since the respondents came from here.

thanks
jim

>> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:19 PM, steven stengel via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> In the past, I requested the email address and home city of old
>>> computer collectors to a compile a list for my own purposes.
>>> Over 120 people had responded, which is great! Now I want to make
>>> this list PUBLIC with a Google map showing everyones location,
>>> email, and collecting preferences.
>>> Since I don't have anyone's explicit permission to publish their
>>> information, I am now asking.
>>> Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on
>>> the public webpage.
>>> Thanks-
>>> Steven Stengelhttp://oldcomputers.net/
>>>
>>>  
>
>



   

RE: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)

[William Sudbrink via cctalk]

I have a hard time getting my head around Dr. Wetterhahn's poisoning.  How
many molecules of the toxin could have possibly entered her body?
How many molecules does it take to kill or fatally disable a cell?  After it
does its damage, does the molecule become available again to do
more damage?  How many cells in her body were actually killed?  Do the
molecules somehow target the cells required to kill an individual?
If you killed just the "right" cells, how many cells does it take to kill a
person?

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tapley,
Mark via cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 12:30 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)

On May 22, 2017, at 9:38 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk 
wrote:

> ...I'm not sure if "mercury" batteries contain metallic mercury or mercury
salts.  Metallic mercury is actually pretty much harmless, even though
bringing a thermometer into a US school can cause a major panic.  Mercury
salts are a different matter.  Mercury vapor should also be avoided, at
least in significant quantities and long term exposure, as my father found
out as a university student in chemistry.

To emphasize what Paul says, Mercury considered only as an element
has a *very* wide range of toxicity. It depends entirely on the compounds it
is bound into. (Similar to, say, Carbon and Nitrogen..). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Wetterhahn
http://i.imgur.com/0dXdc.jpg

Karen Wetterhahn spilled a drop of a Mercury compound on her latex
glove, and died of it 10 months later. 
I don't know what happened to the guy who is pictured sitting in (on) a pool
of Mercury, but at least it's clear that at the time, he considered
elemental mercury not to be lethally dangerous. I remember seeing the photo
in National Geographic, and the caption did say he was very careful to shake
out his cuffs, etc after the photo was shot. 

NatGeo itself also is now clearly aware there is some risk:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/05/160524-indonesia-toxic-toll/

One problem is that it's hard to ensure that *all* of the Mercury
will stay in the non-toxic forms when handling it.
- Mark



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: OT: Mercury (Was: BBS software for the PDP 11)

[Tapley, Mark via cctalk]

On May 22, 2017, at 9:38 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk  
wrote:

> ...I'm not sure if "mercury" batteries contain metallic mercury or mercury 
> salts.  Metallic mercury is actually pretty much harmless, even though 
> bringing a thermometer into a US school can cause a major panic.  Mercury 
> salts are a different matter.  Mercury vapor should also be avoided, at least 
> in significant quantities and long term exposure, as my father found out as a 
> university student in chemistry.

To emphasize what Paul says, Mercury considered only as an element has 
a *very* wide range of toxicity. It depends entirely on the compounds it is 
bound into. (Similar to, say, Carbon and Nitrogen….). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Wetterhahn
http://i.imgur.com/0dXdc.jpg

Karen Wetterhahn spilled a drop of a Mercury compound on her latex 
glove, and died of it 10 months later. 
I don’t know what happened to the guy who is pictured sitting in (on) a pool of 
Mercury, but at least it’s clear that at the time, he considered elemental 
mercury not to be lethally dangerous. I remember seeing the photo in National 
Geographic, and the caption did say he was very careful to shake out his cuffs, 
etc after the photo was shot. 

NatGeo itself also is now clearly aware there is some risk:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/05/160524-indonesia-toxic-toll/

One problem is that it’s hard to ensure that *all* of the Mercury will 
stay in the non-toxic forms when handling it.
- Mark

Re: KDF 8189 processor board foobared (ebay warning)

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Jim Stephens

> The fellow responded and as I had suspected had never seen anything
> this old before and had thought that the parts were separable.
> ...
> Also he is going to hopefully share photos of the entire pile and I'll
> try to help him market the parts in the most profitable way for him.

This is good to hear.

If he doesn't know about not trashing backplanes, etc (since most people save
the boards, and trash everything else), please let him know about that too.

I just lucked into a DH11 backplane, w/out boards. The boards are, however,
easy to find on eBay, due to people following the 'save the boards' method...

Noel

Re: Teletype 43

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 12:57 AM, Jim Brain  wrote:
> On 5/22/2017 8:41 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
>> Do you have a "traffic light"?  I find them invaluable for diagnosing
>> handshaking and TxD/RxD swaps.
>
> Yep.  constant low on TX.

Not a positive sign.

> It's entirely possible, but I put a scope on the TX line, and I see no
> activity at all with the unit in DATA or TERM READY mode.  The DATA LED
> blinks, so I think I need to signal the Model 43 that it is "connected".

If it needs hardware handshaking to work, there are a number of
diagrams out there for how to wire the pins together to make the UART
think it's always OK to send.

One example is:

"Connect pins 8 and 7 (i.e. CTS drives RTS)
Connect pins 1, 4, 6 This should maintain the DTR line in the correct
state, by connecting it to DCD and DSR"

It depends on DCE vs DTE and how the vendor wired up their port, but
it's going to be along those lines.

> As has been suggested, I joined GreenKeys and asked if someone has a similar
> setup that works, so I can replicate.

Handy.

> Worst case is that the driver board has issues, which at least will narrow
> down my search.

Indeed.  It could be the drivers/receivers at the edge of the circuit.
I've had to replace them on occasion when restoring a new-to-me
device.

With a traffic light and an o-scope, it should be easy enough to see
into things - could be cabling, could be a bad IC.  Not seeing TxD
wiggle when you send chars is a pretty fundamental issue.

-ethan

Re: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA

[Peter C. Wallace via cctalk]

On Tue, 23 May 2017, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote:


Date: Tue, 23 May 2017 14:35:52 +0100 (BST)
From: Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk 
Reply-To: Maciej W. Rozycki ,
"General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
To: "classic...@crash.com" ,
"General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
Subject: Re: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA

On Sun, 21 May 2017, classiccmp--- via cctalk wrote:


Mesa has to vacate these offices by the end of the month. They're super
nice people, just trying to avoid anything involving a scrapper. Please
dig up that thread and have another look (sorry, traveling).

Link to some photos I took:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/smj_crash/albums/72157683795598746

Again, location is Richmond, East SF Bay, California, USA, Earth, Sol
System, Perseus Arm, etc etc. Convenient to highways and spaceports alike!


Do you or anyone have their working contact information?  I sent Peter a
couple of e-mails over the last weeks, however I got no reply, so I wonder
if I got something wrong.

Thanks,

 Maciej




Sorry we have been very busy trying to get the last stuff done before we move 
to our new location, we have only about 8 days left here so its a rush now...




Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

Re: FTGH clear-out at Mesa Electronics, Richmond, CA, USA

[Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk]

On Sun, 21 May 2017, classiccmp--- via cctalk wrote:

> Mesa has to vacate these offices by the end of the month. They're super
> nice people, just trying to avoid anything involving a scrapper. Please
> dig up that thread and have another look (sorry, traveling).
> 
> Link to some photos I took:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/smj_crash/albums/72157683795598746
> 
> Again, location is Richmond, East SF Bay, California, USA, Earth, Sol
> System, Perseus Arm, etc etc. Convenient to highways and spaceports alike!

 Do you or anyone have their working contact information?  I sent Peter a 
couple of e-mails over the last weeks, however I got no reply, so I wonder 
if I got something wrong.

 Thanks,

  Maciej

usenet text newsgroup archives

[jim stephens via cctalk]

I've not hunted for anything much new on text usenet groups in ages.

However I ran across a reference to a mailman mail list from 2006 call 
sun at home.


Then stumbled across something call os.solaris.at-home.  I presume that 
may be comp.os.solaris.at-home ?


Anyone have a pointer to stable archives.  And perhaps what happened to 
the mailman and archives?


the trail to that list runs like this:

This site with lots of Sun info I can use:
http://www.obsolyte.com/

References this which is "on hiatus":
http://www.net-kitchen.com/mailman/listinfo/suns-at-home

apparently above is by Dwight D. McKay.

From what I recall of Purdue IT and the like he is probably someone who 
knows or worked with

George Gobel.  (google his liquid oxygen BBQ sometime, for a taste).

This is the link, but the above will hit all sorts of fun madness. Way 
before Mythbusters and the like
as far as "don't try this at home"  (subscript, tell George and let him 
set himself on fire).


https://youtu.be/sab2Ltm1WcM

thanks
Jim

Re: Directory of old computer collectors

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 5/22/2017 11:06 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote:

On Mon, 22 May 2017 16:29:22 -0400
william degnan via cctalk  wrote:


can you send a link to the people who are on the list so they can see
their listing?  I personally don't mind as long as any record that
includes me personally does not include my email address or phone
number.I much prefer to send people to my web page contact form.

Folks who are on the list should have the opportunity to approve what
will and will not be posted about them. That's not only a legal
requirement in many States, but also common courtesy.

Regards,
Lyle
You do get that this isn't cctalk, but one that people had already sent 
contact info for.  I sent him revised publishable contact info for the 
list.  I realize he probably made the request w/o 40 pages of consent 
forms to read, but he seems to just be asking to allow him to publish 
from that list, and a note here for anyone who didn't see it in their 
email, since the respondents came from here.


thanks
jim


On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 4:19 PM, steven stengel via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


Hi,
In the past, I requested the email address and home city of old
computer collectors to a compile a list for my own purposes.
Over 120 people had responded, which is great! Now I want to make
this list PUBLIC with a Google map showing everyones location,
email, and collecting preferences.
Since I don't have anyone's explicit permission to publish their
information, I am now asking.
Please let me know if I may, or may not, place your information on
the public webpage.
Thanks-
Steven Stengelhttp://oldcomputers.net/