Re: DEC board maker KT or K

[Paul Anderson via cctalk]

I'll look for mine when I can and send you numbers.


On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:36 AM, jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Thanks, Paul
>
> Only thing DEC is the design, and the board stiffener and extractor bar.
> They bought the 6u product and it looks to be standard DEC.
>
> The only thing that is interesting and perhaps are the memory cards.  They
> have the appearance of not being as custom and oddball as the rest.  They
> clearly were some sort of custom set.
>
> I'd be interested in photos, or if you can look @ mine any that you see
> that are similar from yours.
> thanks
> Jim
>
>
> On 9/25/2017 9:09 PM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote:
>
>> The K & T boards I have are Kearney and Trecker, and I don't think DEC
>> made
>> them.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:52 PM, jim stephens via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> I have a stack of boards I'm trying to figure out.  They may be a bunch of
>>> boards made for a user of DEC PDP 11s or 8s as addons to their own lines
>>> as
>>> embedded systems, or they may have had some other sales.
>>>
>>> KT in the etch, and in one case KT Memories with a stylized logo.
>>>
>>> I put the photos on this page if anyone can help.
>>>
>>> http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2017/09/dec-digital-equipmen
>>> t-corp-clone-vendor.html
>>>
>>> The fun ones will be the ones with 6800s on board.  If I get them, I'll
>>> be
>>> interested in the prom contents of course.
>>>
>>> Any info, guesses or other would be great. KT isn't something that allows
>>> for much dis-ambiguation on searchs.  Korean Telecom bombs out all KT
>>> references, as that was its SEC and trading symbol. (may still be).
>>>
>>> thanks
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

Ah, yeah that's actually better for my purpose. I'm more concerned with the
data interface - can I just read and write bits at will or are there
contingencies as someone mentioned before?

=]

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:06 AM Paul Birkel  wrote:

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Anders
> Nelson via cctalk
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 7:01 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?
>
> Hmmm, interesting. How does the 7970 compare to the Kennedy 9800?:
>
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kennedy-9800-9-Track-Data-Tape-Subsystem/232493086636
>
> For the same price the Kennedy drive looks more beautimous...
>
> =]
>
> --
> Anders Nelson
>
> -
>
>
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/kennedy/Kennedy_9800_Digital_Tape_Transport_Operation_and_Maintenance_Manual.pdf
>
> 8.5" reels  (not the full size 10.5")
>
>
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/tape/7970/07970-90885_7970oper_Dec76.pdf
>
> -
>
> --
--
Anders Nelson
+1 (517) 775-6129
www.erogear.com

Re: DEC board maker KT or K

[jim stephens via cctalk]

Thanks, Paul

Only thing DEC is the design, and the board stiffener and extractor 
bar.  They bought the 6u product and it looks to be standard DEC.


The only thing that is interesting and perhaps are the memory cards.  
They have the appearance of not being as custom and oddball as the 
rest.  They clearly were some sort of custom set.


I'd be interested in photos, or if you can look @ mine any that you see 
that are similar from yours.

thanks
Jim

On 9/25/2017 9:09 PM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote:

The K & T boards I have are Kearney and Trecker, and I don't think DEC made
them.

Paul

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:52 PM, jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:


I have a stack of boards I'm trying to figure out.  They may be a bunch of
boards made for a user of DEC PDP 11s or 8s as addons to their own lines as
embedded systems, or they may have had some other sales.

KT in the etch, and in one case KT Memories with a stylized logo.

I put the photos on this page if anyone can help.

http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2017/09/dec-digital-equipmen
t-corp-clone-vendor.html

The fun ones will be the ones with 6800s on board.  If I get them, I'll be
interested in the prom contents of course.

Any info, guesses or other would be great. KT isn't something that allows
for much dis-ambiguation on searchs.  Korean Telecom bombs out all KT
references, as that was its SEC and trading symbol. (may still be).

thanks
Jim

Re: HP 9845 complete system on auction in Sweden

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

we see this same effect in large studio cameras on board monitors they have. we 
have just left as us as the large all tube innards do not work alas  Ed#

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Monday, September 25, 2017 Ian S. King  wrote:

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 10:37 AM,  wrote:

Folks - Any idea what causes the screen rot?

 

also  any preventative measures to  keep it  from happening or spreading?

Ed#

 

 


It's the understood chemical decomposition of the adhesive that holds the 
screen shield to the CRT.  It's pretty much inevitable, from what I understand. 
 The solution is to separate the shield from the CRT, clean the face of the CRT 
and reattach the shield.  Some people don't reattach it, and some people think 
they are risking serious injury - no opinion. Will the newer adhesives hold up 
better?  We hope so.  -- Ian 


-- 

Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School

Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical 
Narrative Through a Design Lens


Principal Investigator, "Reflections on Early Computing and Social Change", UW 
IRB #42619


Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 

Value Sensitive Design Research Lab


University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." 

RE: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Paul Birkel via cctalk]

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Anders Nelson 
via cctalk
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 7:01 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

Hmmm, interesting. How does the 7970 compare to the Kennedy 9800?:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kennedy-9800-9-Track-Data-Tape-Subsystem/232493086636

For the same price the Kennedy drive looks more beautimous...

=]

--
Anders Nelson

-

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/kennedy/Kennedy_9800_Digital_Tape_Transport_Operation_and_Maintenance_Manual.pdf

8.5" reels  (not the full size 10.5")

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/tape/7970/07970-90885_7970oper_Dec76.pdf

-

Re: HP 9845 complete system on auction in Sweden

[Ian S. King via cctalk]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 10:37 AM,  wrote:

> Folks - Any idea what causes the screen rot?
>
> also  any preventative measures to  keep it  from happening or spreading?
> Ed#
>
>
>
> It's the understood chemical decomposition of the adhesive that holds the
screen shield to the CRT.  It's pretty much inevitable, from what I
understand.  The solution is to separate the shield from the CRT, clean the
face of the CRT and reattach the shield.  Some people don't reattach it,
and some people think they are risking serious injury - no opinion. Will
the newer adhesives hold up better?  We hope so.  -- Ian

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Principal Investigator, "Reflections on Early Computing and Social Change",
UW IRB #42619

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: I REALLY need a scrounger in Richmond, VA

[Sam O'nella via cctalk]

Just a friendly bump. Did anyone post this on vcfed or any mac collector 
forums? 
 Original message From: Electronics Plus via cctalk 
 Date: 9/22/17  1:01 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: "'General 
Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"  Subject: I 
REALLY need a scrounger in Richmond, VA 
Dude just pulled 2 truckloads of early Apple and 386/486 computers and
keyboards out of storage and is scrapping them. I REALLY need somebody there
to sort the good from the trash. Can anybody help? He gave me one week to
come up with someone to scrounge, then it all goes for scrap.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sa...@elecplus.com

AOL IM elcpls

 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: DEC board maker KT or K

[Paul Anderson via cctalk]

The K & T boards I have are Kearney and Trecker, and I don't think DEC made
them.

Paul

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:52 PM, jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I have a stack of boards I'm trying to figure out.  They may be a bunch of
> boards made for a user of DEC PDP 11s or 8s as addons to their own lines as
> embedded systems, or they may have had some other sales.
>
> KT in the etch, and in one case KT Memories with a stylized logo.
>
> I put the photos on this page if anyone can help.
>
> http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2017/09/dec-digital-equipmen
> t-corp-clone-vendor.html
>
> The fun ones will be the ones with 6800s on board.  If I get them, I'll be
> interested in the prom contents of course.
>
> Any info, guesses or other would be great. KT isn't something that allows
> for much dis-ambiguation on searchs.  Korean Telecom bombs out all KT
> references, as that was its SEC and trading symbol. (may still be).
>
> thanks
> Jim
>

Data general keyboard

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

I randomly found this in case anyone's interested:

https://www.recycledgoods.com/data-general-terminal-keyboard-for-data-general-d-412-terminal-6348-a/

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

Re: I forget does this take attachments or inline images?-Ed#

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

OK many thanks shall do!


Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Monday, September 25, 2017 jim stephens via cctalk  
wrote:


On 9/25/2017 8:31 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote:
> I forget does this take attachments or inline images?-Ed#
No images on either list, sorry.  Post somewhere and share.
Thanks
Jim

Re: DEC board maker KT or K

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 09/25/2017 09:52 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
I have a stack of boards I'm trying to figure out. They 
may be a bunch of boards made for a user of DEC PDP 11s or 
8s as addons to their own lines as embedded systems, or 
they may have had some other sales.


KT in the etch, and in one case KT Memories with a 
stylized logo.


I put the photos on this page if anyone can help.

http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2017/09/dec-digital-equipment-corp-clone-vendor.html 



The fun ones will be the ones with 6800s on board.  If I 
get them, I'll be interested in the prom contents of course.


Any info, guesses or other would be great. KT isn't 
something that allows for much dis-ambiguation on 
searchs.  Korean Telecom bombs out all KT references, as 
that was its SEC and trading symbol. (may still be).


thanks
Jim

Kearney & Trecker?  Maker of large machine tools, later ones 
were CNC.


Jon

Re: I forget does this take attachments or inline images?-Ed#

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 9/25/2017 8:31 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote:

I  forget does this  take   attachments or inline  images?-Ed#

No images on either list, sorry.  Post somewhere and share.
Thanks
Jim

I forget does this take attachments or inline images?-Ed#

[Ed via cctalk]

I  forget does this  take   attachments or inline  images?-Ed#

DEC board maker KT or K

[jim stephens via cctalk]

I have a stack of boards I'm trying to figure out.  They may be a bunch 
of boards made for a user of DEC PDP 11s or 8s as addons to their own 
lines as embedded systems, or they may have had some other sales.


KT in the etch, and in one case KT Memories with a stylized logo.

I put the photos on this page if anyone can help.

http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2017/09/dec-digital-equipment-corp-clone-vendor.html

The fun ones will be the ones with 6800s on board.  If I get them, I'll 
be interested in the prom contents of course.


Any info, guesses or other would be great. KT isn't something that 
allows for much dis-ambiguation on searchs.  Korean Telecom bombs out 
all KT references, as that was its SEC and trading symbol. (may still be).


thanks
Jim

Re: HP 2108A key

[Ed via cctalk]

well.  do not  see any 2007
so bought  one  incase the  1000   is the one that  uses  that  one.
easier   than  driving back to the building.
 
however.  I  did  find  a but  ofother  HP  keys even  some ace  
style?
 found my open the 2645   thingis my hp 1000 beltbuckle (  bif g bronze 
thing)
may  ace keys  probably  dec and  some classic   8
 
another  hp2000a  rime share   emblem off a first ever  hp timeshare 
system.  ( seems I have a couple extras  so one can  go)
 
found  spare keys to the  computer biz in the 80s
 
but  have a heck of a lot of  quantity I have no idea what they  are or 
what they go to  but  yea there are ## on them.   probably  some  DG  too
 
Ed#
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/25/2017 6:03:40 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

Supplying an example ebay  auction:

H2007-2007-Key-Precut-Chicago-Lock-Illinois-NEW-FACTORY-CUT-SHIPS-FAST

http://www.ebay.com/itm/322652408202

Re: HP 2108A key

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 9/25/2017 1:46 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote:

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:


On Thu, 21 Sep 2017, Sam O'nella wrote:
 Should be easy but my mobile google fu is failing. Didn't Jay and a 
few
 others know if a vintage computer key database/site somewhere? 
Would that

 possibly have or benefit from getting afterwards? null


Ok, I went into our storage and made some pics:
http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/hp1000/keys.html 



In total, there are three different keys used on the 21MX, 1000M and 
1000E/F.


Christian


   I received a key that was made based on the Chicago Lock H2007 key 
in Christian's picture:


http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/hp1000/keys/P1080975.JPG 



   It works!

   I've asked our resident keymaster to post any specifications needed 
to duplicate this key.


   Thanks to everyone involved, for their help.

The 2007 can be bought on ebay.  It also is the Microdata 1600, Reality 
and other standard key.  I carry

one on my keyring just for nostalgia, and also if I run across a 1600.

FWIW it also will open most Pepsi and Coke dispensers in such as 
McDonalds, as well as quite a few
devices in Phoenix Sky Harbor air port.  Latter is not recommended now 
with TSA around.


Supplying an example ebay auction:

H2007-2007-Key-Precut-Chicago-Lock-Illinois-NEW-FACTORY-CUT-SHIPS-FAST

http://www.ebay.com/itm/322652408202

I lucked out and have filing cabinet cores, upright cabinet key cores, 
and stand alone switches,
all on the same key.  When you fool with something for 40 years, things 
like this shows up.


Thanks
jim



Mike Loewen    mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology    http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

Re: HP 2108A key

[Dennis Boone via cctalk]

 > If/when you get around to it, start by sorting by blank.

Good thought.

 > On the double-sided Chicago keys, if you have an extra that matches
 > H2007, send one to Dennis to use as a "master" for subsequent demand.

Not necessary, as I have a full set of pattern keys.

I'd be interested in a crack at other stuff, though. ;)

De

Re: HP 2108A key

[Dennis Boone via cctalk]

> The tricky bit to cutting them is that when Chicago designed them, they
> developed several hundred unique curves instead of a set of numbered cut
> depths.  However, manufacturers of numerical key machines have worked it
> out, probably by pretending there are a large number of cut positions.

Cut data for H2007: 45433456776, bow-to-tip.  Depths and spacings to
make this work follow.  You'll need a fixed font for the diagram.

De


Chicago double sided numeric cut info




|
++  +-+
  \/   \ -
>
   / e.g. depth 7, .308"
+-+  -
|

\_/
.016"

From shoulder, positions are:
1   .237"
2   .266"
3   .294"
4   .322"
5   .351"
6   .379"
7   .407"
8   .435"
9   .464"
10  .492"
11  .520"

Depths are from other outer side of uncut key to bottom of cut:
0   .392"
1   .380"
2   .368"
3   .356"
4   .344"
5   .332"
6   .320"
7   .308"
8   .296"
9   .284"

Width of flat at the bottom of the cut is .016" ("root")

Re: HP 2108A key

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

OK thanks for the advice! ...
Ed# www.smecc.org 

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Monday, September 25, 2017 Fred Cisin via cctalk  
wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote:
> FANTASTIC -!
> I still need to triage the shoe boxes too-

If/when you get around to it, start by sorting by blank.
On the double-sided Chicago keys, if you have an extra that matches H2007, 
send one to Dennis to use as a "master" for subsequent demand.

To the extent that you are up for it, measure the depths of cuts on all 
keys that have numbers stamped on them, to help populate the database.
(keycode numbers, not blanks numbers)

Unmarked keys are best sorted for matches to marked keys, and the 
remainder into groups that match each other.

Re: HP 2108A key

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote:

FANTASTIC -!
I still need to triage the  shoe boxes too-


If/when you get around to it, start by sorting by blank.
On the double-sided Chicago keys, if you have an extra that matches H2007, 
send one to Dennis to use as a "master" for subsequent demand.


To the extent that you are up for it, measure the depths of cuts on all 
keys that have numbers stamped on them, to help populate the database.

(keycode numbers, not blanks numbers)

Unmarked keys are best sorted for matches to marked keys, and the 
remainder into groups that match each other.

Re: HP 2108A key

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Thank you Dennis, we are likely to need your help often.

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote:

The tricky bit to cutting them is that when Chicago designed them, they
developed several hundred unique curves instead of a set of numbered cut
depths.  However, manufacturers of numerical key machines have worked it
out, probably by pretending there are a large number of cut positions.


Curves, instead of finite number of flats, are trivially more difficult to 
duplicate, and very difficult to visually decode without the spacing data. 
That might not seem so important, but in 2007, keys were made for Diebold 
voting machines from pictures on a Diebold website:

http://spiralbound.net/blog/2007/01/25/diebold-voting-machine-key-copied-from-photo/


HOWEVER, disunirregardless of the curves of the key, the key will work 
fine if the flats are at the right height for each of the wafers of the 
lock.  If one were to disassemble any of the locks of that series, and 
measure the spacing of where the wafers contact the key, then it becomes 
trivial to decode the key and cut it as a conventional code-cut key.

Hint: Harbor Freight digital caliper

I would assume that the better depth/spacing databases include the Chicago 
H series.


Some more info thru Google:
http://www.locksmithledger.com/article/12245464/mosler
There are 11 wafers.
At that time, there were 24 shapes used, but 4 positions for each shape.
The shapes could also be raised or lowere 0.015 inches.
Total of 576 different keys, until they add more shapes.

The wafers are thin and closely spaced, so a code cutting machine needs to 
be able to handle narrow cuts.


innards of the lock (patent drawing)!
http://oi62.tinypic.com/34fyw7p.jpg


Sets of "Try out" keys are available.

It is used for high-end cam/cabinet locks, elevators, etc.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com





There are two ways these days to originate one: copy the appropriate
master key (they come in sets from whoever now owns Chicago, or used
from ebay occasionally) onto the appropriate blank; or use a numerically
controlled key machine.

I can originate most of these Chicago keys from my set of masters, if
people are stuck.  I think I can also produce the 4T1427 panel lock key,
and with a little testing the tubular XX2946, XX2247, XX2065 (since we
have cut depths for these).  I've been trying to get to the point where
I can produce most ccmp related keys, and am interested in expanding
that capability, if people have needs or additional data.

De

Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

Hmmm, interesting. How does the 7970 compare to the Kennedy 9800?:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kennedy-9800-9-Track-Data-Tape-Subsystem/232493086636

For the same price the Kennedy drive looks more beautimous...

=]

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Jay West via cctalk 
wrote:

> ED#WROTE
> What is really  scarce is a  7 track  7970b!
> 
> I have a 7970B (needs some repair) that I would LOVE to trade for a 7970E.
>
> J
>
>
>

Re: WTB 3270 terminal

[Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk]

Cool!  Mine are all older (MP3000, R390, 4331).  I have a 3174-61 (with 
ethernet).  I haven’t quite brought myself to getting a 3174-1 (there are 
several on ebay for not unreasonable prices).

There are some 3178’s and 3179’s on ebay (at least the last time I looked).  
You *may* have to find a PC keyboard separately but they’re not too hard to 
find.

I have several 3278’s, a 3279 and some 3179’s.  The 3278’s (with the exception 
of the one that’s the console for the 4331) all have the data entry keyboard 
(vs the typewriter keyboard) which is probably the only reason they survived.  
:-/

I like you had been looking for *years* for them and then all of a sudden a 
number crossed my path.

TTFN - Guy

> On Sep 25, 2017, at 2:31 PM, Kevin Bowling  wrote:
> 
> Yes, I have a 3174 with escon.  z800
> 
> They _are_ hard to find, I've been looking for two years.
> 
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr  wrote:
>> You realize that a CUT terminal (327x, 317x, etc) all require an 
>> “establishment controller” in order to work?
>> 
>> Something like a 3174-1, 3174-11 or 3174-6x.
>> 
>> Also 327x terminals are *hard* to find.  Partly because the keyboard 
>> collectors (may they be forever damned)
>> take the keyboards and scrap the rest.
>> 
>> What mainframe do you have?
>> 
>> TTFN - Guy
>> 
>>> On Sep 25, 2017, at 1:14 AM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I want to get a fixed function term for my mainframe.
>>> 
>>> Ideally looking for a 3290 and would offer around $1000 as an initial
>>> feeler for a good one.
>>> 
>>> I'm in Arizona, willing to pay for shipping or I can come collect it.
>>> Please reply direct, I don't watch the list too hard.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Kevin
>> 

Re: WTB 3270 terminal

[Kevin Bowling via cctalk]

Yes, I have a 3174 with escon.  z800

They _are_ hard to find, I've been looking for two years.

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr  wrote:
> You realize that a CUT terminal (327x, 317x, etc) all require an 
> “establishment controller” in order to work?
>
> Something like a 3174-1, 3174-11 or 3174-6x.
>
> Also 327x terminals are *hard* to find.  Partly because the keyboard 
> collectors (may they be forever damned)
> take the keyboards and scrap the rest.
>
> What mainframe do you have?
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>> On Sep 25, 2017, at 1:14 AM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I want to get a fixed function term for my mainframe.
>>
>> Ideally looking for a 3290 and would offer around $1000 as an initial
>> feeler for a good one.
>>
>> I'm in Arizona, willing to pay for shipping or I can come collect it.
>> Please reply direct, I don't watch the list too hard.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Kevin
>

Re: HP 2108A key

[Dennis Boone via cctalk]

 > I received a key that was made based on the Chicago Lock H2007 key in
 > Christian's picture:

 > It works!

 > I've asked our resident keymaster to post any specifications needed
 > to duplicate this key.

The key is an H2007.  This is one of the Chicago double-sided types.
The keyblank is an Ilco 1041G, aka CG1, which looks like this:

http://mysecuritypro.com/images/products/highres/cg1large.jpg

Note that there are other similar blanks in which the center land is
offset one way or the other, but on this one it's centered.

One easy way to get one is on ebay: H2007 is one of the relatively
common numbers, once used in alarms or elevators or some such.  Most
real locksmiths (i.e. not the key booth at Ace or Home Despot) will have
the means to originate such a key, and can work from "Chicago
double-sided H2007 CG1".  Many of said serious locksmiths will want you
to prove you own the lock.  I think I remember hearing that Jay carried
one of his HP minis into such a place once... ;)

TL;DR:

The tricky bit to cutting them is that when Chicago designed them, they
developed several hundred unique curves instead of a set of numbered cut
depths.  However, manufacturers of numerical key machines have worked it
out, probably by pretending there are a large number of cut positions.

There are two ways these days to originate one: copy the appropriate
master key (they come in sets from whoever now owns Chicago, or used
from ebay occasionally) onto the appropriate blank; or use a numerically
controlled key machine.

I can originate most of these Chicago keys from my set of masters, if
people are stuck.  I think I can also produce the 4T1427 panel lock key,
and with a little testing the tubular XX2946, XX2247, XX2065 (since we
have cut depths for these).  I've been trying to get to the point where
I can produce most ccmp related keys, and am interested in expanding
that capability, if people have needs or additional data.

De

Re: HP 2108A key

[Ed via cctalk]

FANTASTIC -!
 
I still need to triage the  shoe boxes too-
Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 9/25/2017 1:47:00 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:


I received a key that was made based on the  Chicago Lock H2007 key in 
Christian's  picture:

http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/hp1000/keys/P1080975.
JPG

It works!

I've asked our resident keymaster to  post any specifications needed to 
duplicate this key.

Thanks to everyone involved, for their help.


Mike Loewenmloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology  http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

Re: HP 2108A key

[Mike Loewen via cctalk]

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:


On Thu, 21 Sep 2017, Sam O'nella wrote:

 Should be easy but my mobile google fu is failing. Didn't Jay and a few
 others know if a vintage computer key database/site somewhere? Would that
 possibly have or benefit from getting afterwards? null


Ok, I went into our storage and made some pics:
http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/hp1000/keys.html

In total, there are three different keys used on the 21MX, 1000M and 1000E/F.

Christian


   I received a key that was made based on the Chicago Lock H2007 key in 
Christian's picture:


http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/hp1000/keys/P1080975.JPG

   It works!

   I've asked our resident keymaster to post any specifications needed to 
duplicate this key.


   Thanks to everyone involved, for their help.


Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology  http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

Re: M8195 SLU died while in use

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> one option ... is to buy spare boards so you can board-swap to localize
> the problem to one board.
> ...
> start with another serial card

Also, if you get a working serial card to use for a console, and you get a
working system as a result, you can then use that ensenble to try and debug
the MXV11-B (you'd have to reconfig its serial line to not be the console).

You can then try all sorts of debugging steps, e.g. try doing deposits/reads
of serial line registers on the MXV11-B to see if you can send/receive
characters - and it that doesn't work, you can then try 'toggling' in a simple
program to send characters in a stream, so you can look at the inputs/outputs
of the EIA chips (those should be findable, even without prints) with a
'scope, to see if they are busted. Etc, etc.

   Noel

Re: WTB 3270 terminal

[Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk]

You realize that a CUT terminal (327x, 317x, etc) all require an “establishment 
controller” in order to work?

Something like a 3174-1, 3174-11 or 3174-6x.

Also 327x terminals are *hard* to find.  Partly because the keyboard collectors 
(may they be forever damned)
take the keyboards and scrap the rest.

What mainframe do you have?

TTFN - Guy

> On Sep 25, 2017, at 1:14 AM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I want to get a fixed function term for my mainframe.
> 
> Ideally looking for a 3290 and would offer around $1000 as an initial
> feeler for a good one.
> 
> I'm in Arizona, willing to pay for shipping or I can come collect it.
> Please reply direct, I don't watch the list too hard.
> 
> Regards,
> Kevin

RE: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Jay West via cctalk]

ED#WROTE
What is really  scarce is a  7 track  7970b!

I have a 7970B (needs some repair) that I would LOVE to trade for a 7970E.

J

Re: HP 9845 complete system on auction in Sweden

[Ed via cctalk]

Folks - Any idea what causes the screen rot?
 
also  any preventative measures to  keep it  from happening  or spreading?
Ed#
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/25/2017 10:20:36 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
isk...@uw.edu writes:

 
On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 8:13 PM, Ed via cctalk  
wrote:

The  shipping cost  would be obscene!
Ed#


In a message dated  9/24/2017 6:57:29 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,

cctalk@classiccmp.org  writes:

> On  I Sep 23, 2017, at 4:23 PM, Chuck Guzis via  cctalk
  wrote:
> The 7970E comes in an HP-IB  version

Indeed, and  I even have one of these beautiful tapes! I managed  to
interface it  to my HP 85 but that was very hard. It required bus sniffing  
work,  an
FPGA adapter, and making an HP 85 "driver" for the thing (see  the  result
in a demo here: https://youtu.be/YS9dGYUbNd0). Great to know the  same  tape
works out the box on an HP 9845. Yet one more reason for  me to get one  
;-).
But my, from Sweden, that's going to be a  monster shipping and  customs
headache.
Marc







I  have one of these with pretty bad screen rot, and I'm not sure if my 
HPIB  controller is working right - but the system itself runs pretty well.   
One of my local collector friends has developed an approach to pull the face  
shield and replace the adhesive - on my list of things to do  --  Ian 


-- 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
_The  Information School_ (http://ischool.uw.edu/) 

Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a  
Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens



Principal Investigator, "Reflections on  Early Computing and Social 
Change", UW IRB #42619


Archivist, _Voices From the Rwanda  Tribunal_ (http://tribunalvoices.org/)  
_Value Sensitive Design Research Lab_ (http://vsdesign.org/) 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon  could go to China." 

Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Ed via cctalk]

What is really  scarce is a  7 track  7970b!
Had one once...  it was the first  used HP  item I ever sold  when I was in 
the used computer  biz  early 80s.
 Wish now  I had  kept it! 
Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 9/25/2017 10:26:10 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

On  09/25/2017 08:27 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> Cool! Aaa, good  to know one of them can't be used individually.
> 
> What might be  involved in using one with a PDP-8/e emulated on SimH? I 
can
>  build/program any sort of custom USB device to interface this big  stuff,
> which I'll open-source of course. But does it need special  power/startup
> stuff beyond a control interface to get it  working?

I can speak only for my experience with the 7970B, which is an  800 NRZI
model and has no "slave' mode. The distinguishing characteristic  on the
7970E between master and slave is that the slave does not contain  the
1600 PE read or write circuitry.

If you're accustomed to a  Pertec interface, then the 800 interface isn't
terribly different, just  dumber.  You still have a connector for the
basic motion and status  commands (i.e. forward, reverse, rewind,
high-speed and online, loadpoint,  ready, protect) and you have two
8-bit+parity clocked data channels for  read and write respectively, each
with their own connector.

However,  there is no formatter, as on Pertec interface drives.  You get
the  raw, framed and deskewed data on read and pretty much anything you
want to  put in on write.   No "handshaking" as the interfaces are  not
buffered.

Thanks to Al, I've just adapted a 7970B to used a  combination head stack
for 7 and 9 track tapes.   Some 7970Es  already come so equipped, but
they're not common.  I fabricated a  small PCB with 5 miniature DPDT
relays to do the switching and it fits  right under the head assembly,
with the B's 9-track read amplifier plugging  in as usual.

The lack of a formatter means that you'll have to do the  work of gap
detection, parity checking/generation and CRC/LRCC  interpretation and
generation yourself, as well as manage the control  lines.

I used a small STM32F407 MCU board (about $10) which has lots of  5V
tolerant I/O, so receiving data and status is no problem.  For  driving
control lines, simply set the GPIO pins for open-drain  operation.
There's something like 24ma of sinking capacity on those, so  again, no
need for intermediate logic.   Since I'm interested in  reading tapes,
but not writing them, I can't address the issue of what to  do about that
end.  My setup uses a serial port for interaction and a  USB port that
makes the onboard SDHC look like a generic storage  device.  So, read a
tape, dump the data into the SDHC (Chan's FATFS  software is useful);
suck it out via the USB port to a PeeSee.

To  handle 1600 PE data would require yet another layer of software.

I  realize that not many are interested in my peculiar needs, but perhaps
this  will go to answer a question or  two.

--Chuck

Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/25/2017 08:27 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> Cool! Aaa, good to know one of them can't be used individually.
> 
> What might be involved in using one with a PDP-8/e emulated on SimH? I can
> build/program any sort of custom USB device to interface this big stuff,
> which I'll open-source of course. But does it need special power/startup
> stuff beyond a control interface to get it working?

I can speak only for my experience with the 7970B, which is an 800 NRZI
model and has no "slave' mode. The distinguishing characteristic on the
7970E between master and slave is that the slave does not contain the
1600 PE read or write circuitry.

If you're accustomed to a Pertec interface, then the 800 interface isn't
terribly different, just dumber.  You still have a connector for the
basic motion and status commands (i.e. forward, reverse, rewind,
high-speed and online, loadpoint, ready, protect) and you have two
8-bit+parity clocked data channels for read and write respectively, each
with their own connector.

However, there is no formatter, as on Pertec interface drives.  You get
the raw, framed and deskewed data on read and pretty much anything you
want to put in on write.   No "handshaking" as the interfaces are not
buffered.

Thanks to Al, I've just adapted a 7970B to used a combination head stack
for 7 and 9 track tapes.   Some 7970Es already come so equipped, but
they're not common.  I fabricated a small PCB with 5 miniature DPDT
relays to do the switching and it fits right under the head assembly,
with the B's 9-track read amplifier plugging in as usual.

The lack of a formatter means that you'll have to do the work of gap
detection, parity checking/generation and CRC/LRCC interpretation and
generation yourself, as well as manage the control lines.

I used a small STM32F407 MCU board (about $10) which has lots of 5V
tolerant I/O, so receiving data and status is no problem.  For driving
control lines, simply set the GPIO pins for open-drain operation.
There's something like 24ma of sinking capacity on those, so again, no
need for intermediate logic.   Since I'm interested in reading tapes,
but not writing them, I can't address the issue of what to do about that
end.  My setup uses a serial port for interaction and a USB port that
makes the onboard SDHC look like a generic storage device.  So, read a
tape, dump the data into the SDHC (Chan's FATFS software is useful);
suck it out via the USB port to a PeeSee.

To handle 1600 PE data would require yet another layer of software.

I realize that not many are interested in my peculiar needs, but perhaps
this will go to answer a question or two.

--Chuck

Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Robert via cctalk]

That sounds very plausible, Mike.

It's too far for me, but I bet somebody local could get both lots for
$1000, by picking them up and saving them the hassle of crating etc.
-- 
Robert

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk
 wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Hi there, here's an eBay auction for two HP 7970E tape drives that appear
>> to function:
>>
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-HP-7970e-DUAL-Tape-Drive-Cabinet-Reel-to-Reel-Player-/192204691239
>>
>> I'm curious if anyone is looking for one of these drives. I'm not sure if
>> I
>> want to pull the trigger on something expensive I won't use until I have
>> free time, but I imagine stuff like this is only getting more rare. I have
>> a Remex paper tape reader in seemingly perfect condition I intend to use
>> with an emulated PDP-8/e (using Rod Smallwood's repro front panel), but
>> it'd be awesome to be able to save stuff too.
>
>
>I believe these drives were originally attached to the 2117F in this
> auction:
>
> Ebay 401311487499
>
>I zoomed in on the first photo and it appears that the upper drive is a
> 7970E and the lower is a 7970B.  The tape controller board sets in their
> 2117F are 13183 (7970E) and 13181 (7970B), which is why I think these two
> items belong together.  The 7970B was nominally 800bpi NRZI, while the 7970E
> was 1600bpi PE.  However, each drive had options, so it's impossible to say
> what capabilities are there without seeing the option numbers.
>
>If someone wanted to pick up both items, you'd have a nice setup.
>
>
> Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
> Old Technology  http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

Re: HP 9845 complete system on auction in Sweden

[Ian S. King via cctalk]

On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 8:13 PM, Ed via cctalk 
wrote:

> The shipping cost  would be obscene!
> Ed#
>
>
> In a message dated 9/24/2017 6:57:29 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:
>
> > On  I Sep 23, 2017, at 4:23 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
>  wrote:
> > The 7970E comes in an HP-IB  version
>
> Indeed, and I even have one of these beautiful tapes! I managed  to
> interface it to my HP 85 but that was very hard. It required bus sniffing
> work, an
> FPGA adapter, and making an HP 85 "driver" for the thing (see the  result
> in a demo here: https://youtu.be/YS9dGYUbNd0). Great to know the same
> tape
> works out the box on an HP 9845. Yet one more reason for me to get one
> ;-).
> But my, from Sweden, that's going to be a monster shipping and customs
> headache.
> Marc
>
>
>
I have one of these with pretty bad screen rot, and I'm not sure if my HPIB
controller is working right - but the system itself runs pretty well.  One
of my local collector friends has developed an approach to pull the face
shield and replace the adhesive - on my list of things to do  -- Ian

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Principal Investigator, "Reflections on Early Computing and Social Change",
UW IRB #42619

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Mike Loewen via cctalk]

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:


Hi there, here's an eBay auction for two HP 7970E tape drives that appear
to function:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-HP-7970e-DUAL-Tape-Drive-Cabinet-Reel-to-Reel-Player-/192204691239

I'm curious if anyone is looking for one of these drives. I'm not sure if I
want to pull the trigger on something expensive I won't use until I have
free time, but I imagine stuff like this is only getting more rare. I have
a Remex paper tape reader in seemingly perfect condition I intend to use
with an emulated PDP-8/e (using Rod Smallwood's repro front panel), but
it'd be awesome to be able to save stuff too.


   I believe these drives were originally attached to the 2117F in this 
auction:


Ebay 401311487499

   I zoomed in on the first photo and it appears that the upper drive is a 
7970E and the lower is a 7970B.  The tape controller board sets in their 
2117F are 13183 (7970E) and 13181 (7970B), which is why I think these two 
items belong together.  The 7970B was nominally 800bpi NRZI, while the 
7970E was 1600bpi PE.  However, each drive had options, so it's impossible 
to say what capabilities are there without seeing the option numbers.


   If someone wanted to pick up both items, you'd have a nice setup.


Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology  http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

Re: M8195 SLU died while in use

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

> On Sep 25, 2017, at 8:37 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> From: Aaron Jackson
> 
>> a PDP-11/73, M8192 CPU, two M8067 RAM, M7195 ... While playing in ODT,
>> the console completely stopped responding.
>> ...
>> The CPU shows 1000, which I believe is fine, and means it's in ODT. The
>> SLU card has . I've had a Google and I believe this means it can't
>> communicate with the CPU.
>> ...
>> Does anyone have any ideas? It was working and then it wasn't :(
> 
> 
> I'm not familiar with the MXV11-B (M7195), and I couldn't turn up a manual
> online, but likely those LEDs are set by software (I can't imagine how one
> would turn on a "can't communicate with the CPU" bit in hardware ... unless
> it's a flop that's set on power-on, and cleared by the first bus cycle to the
> card)...
> 
> 

There is a user guide at http://vaxhaven.com/images/6/6d/EK-MXV1B-UG-001.pdf
The LED’s are controlled by a single write only register as Noel suggests.  
You might try to blindly set or clear the leds with a poke to 7524.
1 to turn the LED OFF, 0 to turn ON. By blind, I mean don’t expect any echo from
ODT. 

//

I had a M8192 go bad while I was using  it a few months ago.  One minute fine 
and 
then the next it would crash an OS sporadically crash, then failed to boot.  

ODT was still active, but after using it to look at a few registers or memory
locations it would just start streaming garbage to the console until power 
reset.  
Confirmed it was only this card.   I swapped out the DCJ-11 with no effect, so 
its definitely
the board itself.  Other than trying to vary the +5 supply to the backplane 
within normal margins
to see if it would recover, I haven’t had a chance to work on it more.  I’d 
definitely
like to understand what form of bit or component rot is going on here when I 
get 
more time with it.

Jerry 

Re: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

Cool! Aaa, good to know one of them can't be used individually.

What might be involved in using one with a PDP-8/e emulated on SimH? I can
build/program any sort of custom USB device to interface this big stuff,
which I'll open-source of course. But does it need special power/startup
stuff beyond a control interface to get it working?

=]

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Jay West  wrote:

> I may be convinced to split it with you. I could always use another 7970E.
> I can't tell from the pictures if one is master and one is slave only
> though.. that would be key.
>
>
>
>

RE: HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Jay West via cctalk]

I may be convinced to split it with you. I could always use another 7970E. I 
can't tell from the pictures if one is master and one is slave only 
though.. that would be key.

HP 7970E - interest to split?

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

Hi there, here's an eBay auction for two HP 7970E tape drives that appear
to function:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-HP-7970e-DUAL-Tape-Drive-Cabinet-Reel-to-Reel-Player-/192204691239

I'm curious if anyone is looking for one of these drives. I'm not sure if I
want to pull the trigger on something expensive I won't use until I have
free time, but I imagine stuff like this is only getting more rare. I have
a Remex paper tape reader in seemingly perfect condition I intend to use
with an emulated PDP-8/e (using Rod Smallwood's repro front panel), but
it'd be awesome to be able to save stuff too.

I'm in NYC and the drives are in Virginia - anyone around the area
interested in splitting the haul? Again I'll have to mull it over but I
want one!

=]
--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

Re: M8195 SLU died while in use

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Aaron Jackson

> a PDP-11/73, M8192 CPU, two M8067 RAM, M7195 ... While playing in ODT,
> the console completely stopped responding.
> ...
> The CPU shows 1000, which I believe is fine, and means it's in ODT. The
> SLU card has . I've had a Google and I believe this means it can't
> communicate with the CPU.
> ...
> Does anyone have any ideas? It was working and then it wasn't :(

Hmm. Well, it's possible something just died. Dead boards are not un-common,
I've found, but to have one die while it's being worked with is a bit of bad
luck... Alas, I can imagine a zillion failures that could produce this symptom
(from EIA driver chip, down to a bus transceiver chip on the CPU).


OK, to start with, those LED values. When you say 1000 on the CPU, there's
some ambiguity as to which direction you're reading them; so, which LED is
on? From above the board (component side up), with the contact fingers at the
bottom, the one on the left, or the one on the right? I'm going to assume the
one on the right, which does indeed mean the CPU is claiming it's in ODT.

While we're on the CPU, is it set to halt on power-up (power up mode 1) or
try and start the ROM (power up mode 2)? I always set mine to halt, on the
grounds that it's easy to start the ROM.

I'm not familiar with the MXV11-B (M7195), and I couldn't turn up a manual
online, but likely those LEDs are set by software (I can't imagine how one
would turn on a "can't communicate with the CPU" bit in hardware ... unless
it's a flop that's set on power-on, and cleared by the first bus cycle to the
card)...


Anyway, there are two approaches to solving this problem. 

So, one option (depending on your budget) is to buy spare boards so you can
board-swap to localize the problem to one board.

I would recommend getting the spare boards anyway since I would recommend
always having a spare minimal set of boards (CPU, serial line) etc. Without a
'working' machine - at least to the point of running ODT - it's hard to do
much poking into problems without a lot of pain (i.e. hard work with things
like a logic analyzer or oscilloscope). Being able to board-swap to at least
localize the problem to one board is a big help.

So, start with another serial card (QBUS serial cards are pretty easy to find
on eBay, and not too expensive), and swap out the MXV11-B, and hope the
serial card you bought works. There are a ton of boards that can do this -
M7940, M8017, M8028, M8043 (the first 3 single line, the last is a quad, but
uses the same connector as the MXV11-B, unlike the first 3). (If that option
is out, I can lend you a known working serial card.)

If it's not the serial card, the next thing to buy is a spare CPU; -11/23's
are not too expensive, you don't need a /73 to debug hardware issues.


The other approach is to debug the hardware. You mention an oscilloscope; do
you also have a logic analyzer? Some things (e.g. checking that when you type
a character, the serial interface presents it to the CPU) are going to be hard
with only an oscilloscope - although I suppose one could program one's
computer to send a constant stream of characters (probably DEL) to the -11.

I couldn't find a set of MXV11-B prints online - does anyone know of a set?
Without that, if the problem is in the MXV11-B, finding it's going to be
painful.

Anyway, you could check on the QBUS to make sure the processor is actually
cycling, trying to read the console input status register, waiting for the
'input character ready' bit to go on. So look at BSYNC and BRPLY, to see if
they are hopping up and down.


Oh, I guess there's a third option: send the CPU and MXV11-B to someone who
has a working system, so they can board-swap and check them out. (I've done
this for people...)


Bottom line, though: if the fault is in the MXV11-B, unless we can find some
prints for it, you're probably stuck with buying at least a replacement
console serial card.

Noel

WTB 3270 terminal

[Kevin Bowling via cctalk]

Hi,

I want to get a fixed function term for my mainframe.

Ideally looking for a 3290 and would offer around $1000 as an initial
feeler for a good one.

I'm in Arizona, willing to pay for shipping or I can come collect it.
Please reply direct, I don't watch the list too hard.

Regards,
Kevin

Re: Z80 micro screen colour inversion

[Adrian Graham via cctalk]

>>On schematic pdf.pg4, what looks to be the video pixel stream SOVSR (from
IC436 on pdf.pg3) feeds an OR gate of IC433, thence inverter in >>IC450,
XOR in IC434, combined with some other stuff in OR gate IC464, resistive
mixing with the composite sync CMSNC, to produce the >>composite video
CMPVD.

>>The XOR of IC434 is the point of interest, the state of the other input
of that XOR gate will invert-or-not the pixel stream.
>>It is labeled as being fed from RVF (ReVerse Field or Frame?).

>>I haven't looked at the schematic long enough to find the source of RVF.
Hardware configuration? Bit of an IO port from software configuration?

>>But I don't know, going from your pic isn't their a lot more screwed up
than just reversed video?

Hi Brent,

It's nice to know my musings last night were on the right track with IC434.
I'd traced the signal back from the composite out and found SOVSR
(embarrassingly I didn't work out that CMPVD could mean Composite Video)
and decided that RVF must be a reverse video signal. RVF comes from IC426
(LS86) which uses a signal called RF as a source. RF comes from IC427
(LS174 flip-flop) pin 15, the input for that is pin 14 (A0).

However, the clock for IC427 is missing and THAT comes from pin 12 of IC430
(LS138) whic is marked TVTL.

I didn't get any further than that.

Cheers!

On 25 September 2017 at 09:48, Brent Hilpert via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 2017-Sep-25, at 12:42 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote:
> > I’ve been troubleshooting another one of “uncle” Clive Sinclair’s
> offspring (though most folk don’t know his involvement), the Grundy
> Newbrain. It’s a typical early 80s micro with Z80 and 32K RAM made up of
> 16x 4116 DRAM.
> >
> > What’s uncommon with this particular one is that it works….mostly. The
> annoying thing with the fault with this one is that I watched it happen -
> the whole screen is inverted so instead of white-on-black I now get
> black-on-white with garbled characters.
> >
> > Initially the display was fine but with the rightmost line of pixels
> missing from each character so I suspected the character ROM (2332 mask
> PROM) or 74LS166 bit shifter that supports it, but then as I watched the
> whole screen inverted and stayed that way, see pics.
> >
> > I’ve attached the schematic of the board, but for now my general
> question is what could cause the whole video stream to be inverted? ISTR
> that with the ZX80 you could invert the screen with a jumper that switched
> output from a 74LS165 bit shifter from the Q to /Q pins but the 74LS166
> doesn’t have an inverted output, unless I’m reading the datasheet wrongly
> of course :)
> >
> > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/newbrain-05.jpg <
> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/newbrain-05.jpg>
> > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/newbrain-14.jpg <
> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/newbrain-14.jpg>
> > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/newbrain.pdf <
> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/newbrain.pdf>
>
>
> Howzabout:
>
> On schematic pdf.pg4, what looks to be the video pixel stream SOVSR (from
> IC436 on pdf.pg3) feeds an OR gate of IC433, thence inverter in IC450, XOR
> in IC434, combined with some other stuff in OR gate IC464, resistive mixing
> with the composite sync CMSNC, to produce the composite video CMPVD.
>
> The XOR of IC434 is the point of interest, the state of the other input of
> that XOR gate will invert-or-not the pixel stream.
> It is labeled as being fed from RVF (ReVerse Field or Frame?).
>
> I haven't looked at the schematic long enough to find the source of RVF.
> Hardware configuration? Bit of an IO port from software configuration?
>
> But I don't know, going from your pic isn't their a lot more screwed up
> than just reversed video?
>
>


-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection?
www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk

Re: Z80 micro screen colour inversion

[Brent Hilpert via cctalk]

On 2017-Sep-25, at 12:42 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote:
> I’ve been troubleshooting another one of “uncle” Clive Sinclair’s offspring 
> (though most folk don’t know his involvement), the Grundy Newbrain. It’s a 
> typical early 80s micro with Z80 and 32K RAM made up of 16x 4116 DRAM.
> 
> What’s uncommon with this particular one is that it works….mostly. The 
> annoying thing with the fault with this one is that I watched it happen - the 
> whole screen is inverted so instead of white-on-black I now get 
> black-on-white with garbled characters.
> 
> Initially the display was fine but with the rightmost line of pixels missing 
> from each character so I suspected the character ROM (2332 mask PROM) or 
> 74LS166 bit shifter that supports it, but then as I watched the whole screen 
> inverted and stayed that way, see pics.
> 
> I’ve attached the schematic of the board, but for now my general question is 
> what could cause the whole video stream to be inverted? ISTR that with the 
> ZX80 you could invert the screen with a jumper that switched output from a 
> 74LS165 bit shifter from the Q to /Q pins but the 74LS166 doesn’t have an 
> inverted output, unless I’m reading the datasheet wrongly of course :)
> 
> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/newbrain-05.jpg 
> 
> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/newbrain-14.jpg 
> 
> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/newbrain.pdf 
> 


Howzabout:

On schematic pdf.pg4, what looks to be the video pixel stream SOVSR (from IC436 
on pdf.pg3) feeds an OR gate of IC433, thence inverter in IC450, XOR in IC434, 
combined with some other stuff in OR gate IC464, resistive mixing with the 
composite sync CMSNC, to produce the composite video CMPVD.

The XOR of IC434 is the point of interest, the state of the other input of that 
XOR gate will invert-or-not the pixel stream.
It is labeled as being fed from RVF (ReVerse Field or Frame?).

I haven't looked at the schematic long enough to find the source of RVF. 
Hardware configuration? Bit of an IO port from software configuration?

But I don't know, going from your pic isn't their a lot more screwed up than 
just reversed video?

WTB 3270 terminal

[Kevin Bowling via cctalk]

Hi,

I want to get a fixed function term for my mainframe.

Ideally looking for a 3290 and would offer around $1000 as an initial
feeler for a good one.

I'm in Arizona, willing to pay for shipping or I can come collect it.
Please reply direct, I don't watch the list too hard.

Regards,
Kevin

Z80 micro screen colour inversion

[Adrian Graham via cctalk]

Hi folks,

I’ve been troubleshooting another one of “uncle” Clive Sinclair’s offspring 
(though most folk don’t know his involvement), the Grundy Newbrain. It’s a 
typical early 80s micro with Z80 and 32K RAM made up of 16x 4116 DRAM.

What’s uncommon with this particular one is that it works….mostly. The annoying 
thing with the fault with this one is that I watched it happen - the whole 
screen is inverted so instead of white-on-black I now get black-on-white with 
garbled characters.

Initially the display was fine but with the rightmost line of pixels missing 
from each character so I suspected the character ROM (2332 mask PROM) or 
74LS166 bit shifter that supports it, but then as I watched the whole screen 
inverted and stayed that way, see pics.

I’ve attached the schematic of the board, but for now my general question is 
what could cause the whole video stream to be inverted? ISTR that with the ZX80 
you could invert the screen with a jumper that switched output from a 74LS165 
bit shifter from the Q to /Q pins but the 74LS166 doesn’t have an inverted 
output, unless I’m reading the datasheet wrongly of course :)

http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/newbrain-05.jpg 

http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/newbrain-14.jpg 

http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/newbrain.pdf 


Cheers!

—
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards