Re: Vintage Radio Catalogs

[Jason T via cctalk]

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 5:54 PM Columbia Valley Maker Space via cctalk
 wrote:
> Is there a similar mailing list for vintage radio guys? These books I
> have need a new home 

As the URL suggests, these guy(s) specialize in early radio history.
They also do a ton of scanning and host their own docs.  If you can
find contact info there, they may be interested in what you have:

https://www.americanradiohistory.com

-j

Re: More old stuff incoming

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Dec 21, 2018, at 9:25 PM, ben via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> On 12/21/2018 8:09 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> For the DPS-8, there really is only one option, and sadly GCOS-8 isn’t 
>> available, only Multics.  Still it’s pretty cool to finally be able to use 
>> Multics, and it’s a lot more user friendly than GCOS-8 (I used to be a 
>> Systems Analyst at a DPS-8 mainframe site).
>> http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/decemulation/Honeywell_DPS-8.html
>> For those unaware, my DEC Emulation pages had to move late last year, due to 
>> my ISP of ~20 years being ransacked by a Crook.  I managed to do quite a bit 
>> of work updating the pages earlier this year.
>> Zane
> So where are your pages?
> Google seems to have changed the algorithm to randomly match on any word, so 
> searching for DEC Emulation, most likely get a Christmas pajamas.
> Ben.

Did the above URL not work?  That’s one of the non-DEC pages.

Unfortunately Google still seems to only turn up old mirrors.

Zane

Re: More old stuff incoming

[ben via cctalk]

On 12/21/2018 8:09 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:


For the DPS-8, there really is only one option, and sadly GCOS-8 isn’t 
available, only Multics.  Still it’s pretty cool to finally be able to use 
Multics, and it’s a lot more user friendly than GCOS-8 (I used to be a Systems 
Analyst at a DPS-8 mainframe site).
http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/decemulation/Honeywell_DPS-8.html

For those unaware, my DEC Emulation pages had to move late last year, due to my 
ISP of ~20 years being ransacked by a Crook.  I managed to do quite a bit of 
work updating the pages earlier this year.

Zane


So where are your pages?
Google seems to have changed the algorithm to randomly match on any 
word, so searching for DEC Emulation, most likely get a Christmas pajamas.

Ben.

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Rod Smallwood via cctalk]

I worked with PDP-8's from 1970 to 1975 and worked at DEC from 1975 to 
1985.


I cannot recall the term 'Straight 8' ever being used.

I think it may have been referred to as the 'Model 8'

Rod Smallwood


On 22/12/2018 03:46, John Ames via cctalk wrote:

I'd definitely be interested to hear if the DECheads on this list know
the specifics, but I'd gathered that it came about once other models
were introduced and the need arose to differentiate between, say, a
PDP-8/e and a "straight" (i.e. vanilla) PDP-8. The car connection
probably made the particular phrasing happen (of course, they
originally photographed it in a Volkswagen, but they couldn't very
well have started calling it a "flat-4!")


--

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[ben via cctalk]

On 12/21/2018 8:46 PM, John Ames via cctalk wrote:

I'd definitely be interested to hear if the DECheads on this list know
the specifics, but I'd gathered that it came about once other models
were introduced and the need arose to differentiate between, say, a
PDP-8/e and a "straight" (i.e. vanilla) PDP-8. The car connection
probably made the particular phrasing happen (of course, they
originally photographed it in a Volkswagen, but they couldn't very
well have started calling it a "flat-4!")



Well your flat 4 can get you a few $$$ as nice little aircraft engine.
Happy Flying.
Ben.

Re: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 12/21/2018 10:51 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:


On 12/21/18 5:19 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:


The DEC brochure for it (P5141) is a little puzzling; it says (p. 2) that
"INTEGRATED CIRCUITS are basic elements of the low cost, newly designed
silicon FLIP CHIP modules used throughout PDP-7", but AFAIK, the first FLIP
CHIPs (R-series, B-series, etc) were all transistors; the later M-series were
the first ones to have ICs. Maybe this is some old meaning of "integrated
circuits"?

The original "Flip Chip" was a packaging failure. It was literally a die bonded 
to a PCB
and never went into production.

I think it is mentioned in "Computer Engineering"

IBM perfected the techniques to do this later with the development of solder 
bumps and
IR reflow.
The 360 was announced in 1964, first delivered in 1965, 
using "flip chip" bonding of discrete transistors and diodes 
on ceramic substrates, their "SLT" packaging.  So, I'm not 
too sure about the "later".  The original PDP-8 was 
introduced in 1965.


Jon

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[John Ames via cctalk]

I'd definitely be interested to hear if the DECheads on this list know
the specifics, but I'd gathered that it came about once other models
were introduced and the need arose to differentiate between, say, a
PDP-8/e and a "straight" (i.e. vanilla) PDP-8. The car connection
probably made the particular phrasing happen (of course, they
originally photographed it in a Volkswagen, but they couldn't very
well have started calling it a "flat-4!")

Re: More old stuff incoming

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Dec 21, 2018, at 5:20 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 12/21/18 3:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>> I’m afraid I’ll have to agree with Jim here.  When talking about Retro 
>> Gaming, in most cases, the Raspberry Pi, while better than nothing, aren’t 
>> as good as the real thing, especially in regards to video and audio.
> 
> There's nothing to be afraid of.
> 
> I was asking from a position of ignorance because I've not used either. I 
> have some colleagues at work that use the Raspberry Pi.  So I know of, but 
> not about, it.

The Raspberry Pi’s are a pretty impressive little tool for situations where 
they have enough resources.  For the purpose of emulation, they’re a great 
platform.  The problem is less with the Raspberry Pi, and more with emulation 
as a whole.  In other words, this is a software issue, not a hardware issue.

>> Now despite what I just said about the Raspberry Pi, I have three of them 
>> around here, one is a small VAX running OpenVMS 7.3, one is a DPS-8 running 
>> Multics, and the other a KL-10B running TOPS-20.  I had dreams of building a 
>> VMS cluster of RPi 3+’s, but have kind of gone off that idea, due to the 
>> superior performance I get using my VMware Cluster to host VAX instances.
> 
> I'll have to check out the DPS-8 and KL-10B.

For the PDP-10, my favorite is KLH10.
http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/decemulation/pdp10emu.html

For the DPS-8, there really is only one option, and sadly GCOS-8 isn’t 
available, only Multics.  Still it’s pretty cool to finally be able to use 
Multics, and it’s a lot more user friendly than GCOS-8 (I used to be a Systems 
Analyst at a DPS-8 mainframe site).  
http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/decemulation/Honeywell_DPS-8.html

For those unaware, my DEC Emulation pages had to move late last year, due to my 
ISP of ~20 years being ransacked by a Crook.  I managed to do quite a bit of 
work updating the pages earlier this year.

Zane

Re: Public buy/sell/trade

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

north amarican inforcement is most complaint based inforcement. were as
from what i know from friends in europe its proactive in many cases

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 7:23 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 12/21/18 4:49 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote:
> > you mean as someone who received a legal threat for a project?  we got
> > one for the DTB website, and it was not nice ...
> >
> > it's one of the reasons why we dropped the experimental-bay since if it
> > involves a little business then things go even worse
>
> I wonder how many things are changing what they do or even not starting
> something new because of GDPR.
>
> > there is a dude in Virginia (US), telling me he can put emails
> > and confidential data (address, phone, etc) in public without any
> > authorization from the owner.
>
> Anybody can do anything they are capable of doing.  The fact that they
> can do it does NOT make it legal to do.  Murder is not legal, yet it
> still happens all over the world.
>
> > I don't know if he is legally allowed do it, but 5 months have already
> > passed without a fine for him ... whereas if you do it in Switzerland
> > or in Italy, you immediately get a legal threat, and/or a fine
>
> Sounds like he is getting lucky.  Or nobody is motivated to stop him yet.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>

Re: Public buy/sell/trade

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 12/21/18 4:49 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote:
you mean as someone who received a legal threat for a project?  we got 
one for the DTB website, and it was not nice ...


it's one of the reasons why we dropped the experimental-bay since if it 
involves a little business then things go even worse


I wonder how many things are changing what they do or even not starting 
something new because of GDPR.


there is a dude in Virginia (US), telling me he can put emails 
and confidential data (address, phone, etc) in public without any 
authorization from the owner.


Anybody can do anything they are capable of doing.  The fact that they 
can do it does NOT make it legal to do.  Murder is not legal, yet it 
still happens all over the world.


I don't know if he is legally allowed do it, but 5 months have already 
passed without a fine for him ... whereas if you do it in Switzerland 
or in Italy, you immediately get a legal threat, and/or a fine


Sounds like he is getting lucky.  Or nobody is motivated to stop him yet.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: More old stuff incoming

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 12/21/18 3:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
I’m afraid I’ll have to agree with Jim here.  When talking about 
Retro Gaming, in most cases, the Raspberry Pi, while better than nothing, 
aren’t as good as the real thing, especially in regards to video 
and audio.


There's nothing to be afraid of.

I was asking from a position of ignorance because I've not used either. 
I have some colleagues at work that use the Raspberry Pi.  So I know of, 
but not about, it.


I was seriously excited about the Retron77 (Atari 2600) that was recently 
released, but on getting it, I found that it wasn’t able to play a 
fair number of the cartridges I’ve tried with it.


:-(

DOS games never had *KNOWN* set of hardware they’d be running on, 
as a result I think they’re likely more forgiving.


Now despite what I just said about the Raspberry Pi, I have three of 
them around here, one is a small VAX running OpenVMS 7.3, one is a DPS-8 
running Multics, and the other a KL-10B running TOPS-20.  I had dreams 
of building a VMS cluster of RPi 3+’s, but have kind of gone off that 
idea, due to the superior performance I get using my VMware Cluster to 
host VAX instances.


I'll have to check out the DPS-8 and KL-10B.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Dec 21, 2018, at 7:15 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
>> From: Paul Koning
> 
>> I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that
>> memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would
>> be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved).
> 
> I think that's what it must be. It's the MR11-A, about which I can find very
> little - it's in the 1970 "pdp11 handbook", p. 46, but I can't find anything
> else.
> 
> It says there "2-piece core with wire braid, 256 wires, 64 cores". Reading
> between the lines, it sounds like the customer could 'configure' the contents
> (perhaps using the "2-piece core), DEC didn't do it.
> 
> If anyone knows anything about this memory, that would be really good.
> 
>   Noel

That description makes it sound like transformer memory (cores operating as 
linear devices), as opposed to be square hysteresis loop memory such as 
conventional core RAM as well as Apollo or EL-X1 core ROM.

Brent Hilpert wrote a good explanation of the various kinds.  The "transformer" 
type he describes is the Wang calculator microcode ROM.

For 1k by 16, core rope memory would use more cores but fewer wires.  And it 
might be slower because (in the Apollo flavor at least, which is the one DEC 
would be likely to know about since it came from Lincoln Labs) it takes a 
two-part cycle to read a word.

paul

RE: Vintage Radio Catalogs

[W2HX via cctalk]

http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/boatanchors

might be good.

73 Eugene W2HX


-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Columbia 
Valley Maker Space via cctalk
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 6:54 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Vintage Radio Catalogs

Hi, everyone: 

In addition to the classic computers I play with, I also have a
collection of 1930 vintage radio equipment catalogs and magazines
collecting dust on my bookshelf. 

Is there a similar mailing list for vintage radio guys? These books I
have need a new home  

Cheers, 

Brian

-- 
Brian McIntosh
Columbia Valley Maker Space Communications Guy
i...@cvmakerspace.ca
250 270 0689

Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Bill Degnan

> It's pretty well researched at this point to be true to state that the
> first two PDP 11 models were the 11/10 and 11/20. It just takes a while
> for this to work its way through academia.

Some places got the message a while ago:

  http://gunkies.org/w/index.php?title=PDP-11=11528=11525

Note the date.

I was reading the 1970 "pdp11 handbook" (note the title - all the pictures
show machines labelled "pdp11") and read about it there.


> From: Paul Koning

> I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory. What technology is that
> memory? At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would
> be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved).

I think that's what it must be. It's the MR11-A, about which I can find very
little - it's in the 1970 "pdp11 handbook", p. 46, but I can't find anything
else.

It says there "2-piece core with wire braid, 256 wires, 64 cores". Reading
between the lines, it sounds like the customer could 'configure' the contents
(perhaps using the "2-piece core), DEC didn't do it.

If anyone knows anything about this memory, that would be really good.

Noel

Vintage Radio Catalogs

[Columbia Valley Maker Space via cctalk]

Hi, everyone: 

In addition to the classic computers I play with, I also have a
collection of 1930 vintage radio equipment catalogs and magazines
collecting dust on my bookshelf. 

Is there a similar mailing list for vintage radio guys? These books I
have need a new home  

Cheers, 

Brian

-- 
Brian McIntosh
Columbia Valley Maker Space Communications Guy
i...@cvmakerspace.ca
250 270 0689

Re: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

They use the same R and S numbers, just late revision suffices. I have
a machine made with them that sometimes even works. I have a bunch
that have had the gold fingers peeled off (don't blame me - I got them
this way).

--
Will
On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 6:26 PM Al Kossow  wrote:
>
> yea, that was it
>
> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/XD37.80
>
> I didn't know we had this example in the collection, they were
> hybrids like IBM SLDs
>
> Do you know of any module part numbers that used them?
>
>
> On 12/21/18 2:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
> >> The original "Flip Chip" was a packaging failure. It was literally a die 
> >> bonded to a PCB
> >> and never went into production.
> >>
> >> I think it is mentioned in "Computer Engineering"
> >>
> >> IBM perfected the techniques to do this later with the development of 
> >> solder bumps and
> >> IR reflow.
> >
> > Are you talking about the little black rectangles, sort of SIP
> > packages, DEC tried in the late 1960s? They were a disaster with
> > reliability, but they did ship.
> >
> > --
> > Will
> >
>

Re: Public buy/sell/trade

[Carlo Pisani via cctalk]

> As someone that actually has to worry about such things

you mean as someone who received a legal threat for a project?
we got one for the DTB website, and it was not nice ...

it's one of the reasons why we dropped the experimental-bay since if
it involves a little business then things go even worse

> And yes, it’s a PITA for businesses and websites,
> but I for one wish we had something similar in the US.

which problems do you have in the US? anything similar to GDPR? tell me

there is a dude in Virginia (US), telling me he can put emails and
confidential data (address, phone, etc) in public without any
authorization from the owner.

I don't know if he is legally allowed do it, but 5 months have already
passed without a fine for him ... whereas if you do it in Switzerland
or in Italy, you immediately get a legal threat, and/or a fine

p.s.
look at Facebook Europe vs Facebook US which of the two did get a fine?

Re: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

yea, that was it

http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/XD37.80

I didn't know we had this example in the collection, they were
hybrids like IBM SLDs

Do you know of any module part numbers that used them?


On 12/21/18 2:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
>> The original "Flip Chip" was a packaging failure. It was literally a die 
>> bonded to a PCB
>> and never went into production.
>>
>> I think it is mentioned in "Computer Engineering"
>>
>> IBM perfected the techniques to do this later with the development of solder 
>> bumps and
>> IR reflow.
> 
> Are you talking about the little black rectangles, sort of SIP
> packages, DEC tried in the late 1960s? They were a disaster with
> reliability, but they did ship.
> 
> --
> Will
> 

Re: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> The original "Flip Chip" was a packaging failure. It was literally a die 
> bonded to a PCB
> and never went into production.
>
> I think it is mentioned in "Computer Engineering"
>
> IBM perfected the techniques to do this later with the development of solder 
> bumps and
> IR reflow.

Are you talking about the little black rectangles, sort of SIP
packages, DEC tried in the late 1960s? They were a disaster with
reliability, but they did ship.

--
Will

Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

On 12/21/2018 4:00 PM, Bill Degnan wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 4:47 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk
> mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> 
> On 12/21/2018 3:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk
> mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal
> >>> 'model'
> >>> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the
> -11/20
> >>> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from
> all the
> >>> other -8's.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the
> numbers did
> >> not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were
> called PDP
> >> 11/10 and PDP 11/20.  These are just as legitimate and well
> defined as the
> >> 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the
> one fact of
> >> the front plate.  The fact that the name does not appear on the
> front panel
> >> has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid.  Read the first
> >> brochure, don't take my word for it.
> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593
> >>
> >> Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model
> 11/20 and
> >> 11/10 existed from day one.  The problem is that DEC re-used the
> 11/10
> >> model name again a few years later, the other cause for
> neglecting the
> >> original 11/10 model.
> >>
> >> Bill
> >
> > Wow.
> >
> > Did that V1 11/10 ever ship?  Do any still exist?
> >
> > I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory.  What technology is
> that memory?  At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but
> that would be pretty expensive (due to the labor involved).
> >
> >       paul
> >
> >
> 
> It shows up in the pdp11 handbook 1969 inside/1970 on the spine, and
> pdp11 handbook 2nd edition (also 1969/1970), but has been displaced by
> the latter 11/10 variant by 1972.
> 
> Perhaps, since the *only* difference was the memory configuration (near
> as I can tell), there may have been so few orders (maybe even none?)
> that they just dropped it.  Or maybe a marketing / design team
> communication misstep.
> 
> The pdp11 handbook from 1969/1970 identifies the memory attributed to
> the 11/10 only as read-only core memory with an access time of 500ns
> (same as the RAM core).  It describes the tiny RAM for the 11/10 of 256
> words has having a 2us cycle time vs. 1.2us for the 11/20.
> 
> The handbook also indicates that an 11/20 could do an NPR transfer every
> 1.2us but an 11/10 could do one ever 1.0us (probably assuming ROM cycle
> times).
> 
> As a guess, they may never have sold any (or delivered 11/20's to those
> who ordered 11/10's).
> 
> 
> When you consider the differences between the 11/35 and 11/40 were
> simply option choices and the later 11/10 11/05, I can see no reason why
> the "original 11/10 11/20 is any different other than the front plate
> being "PDP-11" for the later pairing.  I am unaware of any 11/10's still
> around but I am also unaware of any Rolm 1601's that still exist, does
> not mean it was not a real Ruggednova model.  etc.
> 
> Basically it's being inconsistent to not acknowledge the original 11/10.
> 
> We could say that the PDP 11 models were
> 11/20
> 11/45
> 11/40
> 11/10
> 
> ... and ignore the original 11/10, plus the 11/35 and 11/05. 
> 
> I will still sleep well at night regardless what officialdom decides. :-)
> 
> Bill

Unless, of course, none of them found their way into customers' hands.

Re: More old stuff incoming

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Dec 21, 2018, at 8:51 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 12/21/18 1:07 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:
>> no, emulators will not cut it
> 
> Would you please expand upon that?
> 
> Are you saying that things like a Raspberry Pi running RetroPi (I think 
> that's the name) don't suffice / satisfy as the real thing that they are 
> emulating?
> 
> Or are you including things like the new retro consoles that original vendors 
> are coming out with?  (The palm sized SNES from Nintendo comes to mind.)
> 
> Do you have any idea why these newer things are not cutting it?
> 
> I've also had great success with running '90s era games in DOSBox on what 
> ever computer happens to be handy.  Does that not work at all for you / your 
> crew?

I’m afraid I’ll have to agree with Jim here.  When talking about Retro Gaming, 
in most cases, the Raspberry Pi, while better than nothing, aren’t as good as 
the real thing, especially in regards to video and audio.  

I was seriously excited about the Retron77 (Atari 2600) that was recently 
released, but on getting it, I found that it wasn’t able to play a fair number 
of the cartridges I’ve tried with it.

DOS games never had *KNOWN* set of hardware they’d be running on, as a result I 
think they’re likely more forgiving.

Now despite what I just said about the Raspberry Pi, I have three of them 
around here, one is a small VAX running OpenVMS 7.3, one is a DPS-8 running 
Multics, and the other a KL-10B running TOPS-20.  I had dreams of building a 
VMS cluster of RPi 3+’s, but have kind of gone off that idea, due to the 
superior performance I get using my VMware Cluster to host VAX instances.

Zane

Re: Public buy/sell/trade

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

As someone that actually has to worry about such things, it’s *GDPR* (Global 
Data Protection Regulation), not GPDR as you keep writing.  And yes, it’s a 
PITA for businesses and websites, but I for one wish we had something similar 
in the US.

Zane


> On Dec 21, 2018, at 7:58 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> besides, the GPDR and this new hipster legal stuff (in Europe) are now
> making things even more complex, especially if a website is involved
> in e-commerce
> .

Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 4:47 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 12/21/2018 3:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal
> >>> 'model'
> >>> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20
> >>> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all
> the
> >>> other -8's.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers
> did
> >> not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called
> PDP
> >> 11/10 and PDP 11/20.  These are just as legitimate and well defined as
> the
> >> 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one
> fact of
> >> the front plate.  The fact that the name does not appear on the front
> panel
> >> has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid.  Read the first
> >> brochure, don't take my word for it.
> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593
> >>
> >> Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20
> and
> >> 11/10 existed from day one.  The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10
> >> model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the
> >> original 11/10 model.
> >>
> >> Bill
> >
> > Wow.
> >
> > Did that V1 11/10 ever ship?  Do any still exist?
> >
> > I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory.  What technology is that
> memory?  At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would be
> pretty expensive (due to the labor involved).
> >
> >   paul
> >
> >
>
> It shows up in the pdp11 handbook 1969 inside/1970 on the spine, and
> pdp11 handbook 2nd edition (also 1969/1970), but has been displaced by
> the latter 11/10 variant by 1972.
>
> Perhaps, since the *only* difference was the memory configuration (near
> as I can tell), there may have been so few orders (maybe even none?)
> that they just dropped it.  Or maybe a marketing / design team
> communication misstep.
>
> The pdp11 handbook from 1969/1970 identifies the memory attributed to
> the 11/10 only as read-only core memory with an access time of 500ns
> (same as the RAM core).  It describes the tiny RAM for the 11/10 of 256
> words has having a 2us cycle time vs. 1.2us for the 11/20.
>
> The handbook also indicates that an 11/20 could do an NPR transfer every
> 1.2us but an 11/10 could do one ever 1.0us (probably assuming ROM cycle
> times).
>
> As a guess, they may never have sold any (or delivered 11/20's to those
> who ordered 11/10's).
>

When you consider the differences between the 11/35 and 11/40 were simply
option choices and the later 11/10 11/05, I can see no reason why the
"original 11/10 11/20 is any different other than the front plate being
"PDP-11" for the later pairing.  I am unaware of any 11/10's still around
but I am also unaware of any Rolm 1601's that still exist, does not mean it
was not a real Ruggednova model.  etc.

Basically it's being inconsistent to not acknowledge the original 11/10.

We could say that the PDP 11 models were
11/20
11/45
11/40
11/10

... and ignore the original 11/10, plus the 11/35 and 11/05.

I will still sleep well at night regardless what officialdom decides. :-)

Bill

Re: Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

On 12/21/2018 3:07 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal
>>> 'model'
>>> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20
>>> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the
>>> other -8's.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers did
>> not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called PDP
>> 11/10 and PDP 11/20.  These are just as legitimate and well defined as the
>> 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one fact of
>> the front plate.  The fact that the name does not appear on the front panel
>> has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid.  Read the first
>> brochure, don't take my word for it.
>> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593
>>
>> Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 and
>> 11/10 existed from day one.  The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10
>> model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the
>> original 11/10 model.
>>
>> Bill
> 
> Wow.
> 
> Did that V1 11/10 ever ship?  Do any still exist?
> 
> I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory.  What technology is that 
> memory?  At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would be 
> pretty expensive (due to the labor involved).
> 
>   paul
> 
> 

It shows up in the pdp11 handbook 1969 inside/1970 on the spine, and
pdp11 handbook 2nd edition (also 1969/1970), but has been displaced by
the latter 11/10 variant by 1972.

Perhaps, since the *only* difference was the memory configuration (near
as I can tell), there may have been so few orders (maybe even none?)
that they just dropped it.  Or maybe a marketing / design team
communication misstep.

The pdp11 handbook from 1969/1970 identifies the memory attributed to
the 11/10 only as read-only core memory with an access time of 500ns
(same as the RAM core).  It describes the tiny RAM for the 11/10 of 256
words has having a 2us cycle time vs. 1.2us for the 11/20.

The handbook also indicates that an 11/20 could do an NPR transfer every
1.2us but an 11/10 could do one ever 1.0us (probably assuming ROM cycle
times).

As a guess, they may never have sold any (or delivered 11/20's to those
who ordered 11/10's).

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[allison via cctalk]

On 12/21/2018 01:10 PM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote:
>
> On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>
>> "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors
>>
>> I never heard it called that before then.
> Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date?
>
> I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to
> search Usenet by date right now.
>
>
Not I, that is a deep hole to dredge.  I do know it was a clear way to
differentiate the various
family of 8 machines and it was on alt.sys.pdp-8 I'd seen it way back
like mid 80s.
It may have been old by then.  I used to peek there as my first PDP-8e
was in hand
around late 1983.

And the automotive reference was not it.  It was the straight as in not
later lettered
versions.  Best similar use is:  Whiskey straight, water on the side.

One of the DEC history things about the era was often engineering went
may different
directions at the same time  making for a plethora of systems that were
or mostly
PDP-8ish like the PDP-12 that was PDP-8 and LINK.  RICM has a really
pretty one.


Allison

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/21/18 11:32 AM, allison via cctech wrote:

> And the automotive reference was not it.  It was the straight as in not
> later lettered
> versions.  Best similar use is:  Whiskey straight, water on the side.

Could be--but I was pointed out that "straight eight" was an automotive
term familiar to the laity that pre-dated DEC by a goodly number of
years.  We live in a world dominated by automobile marketing.

I suspect the same common connection to "turbo", popularized by the auto
marketeers.

On the other hand, I've never seen a computer advertised with  a
"Turbo-Hydra-Matic" or "Dynaflow" feature.

--Chuck

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> Could be--but I was pointed out that "straight eight" was an automotive
> term familiar to the laity that pre-dated DEC by a goodly number of
> years.  We live in a world dominated by automobile marketing.

Some points to ponder:

The term Straight-9 is basically never heard when referring to the
PDP-9 and not a PDP-9/L.

The term "Winchester disk" is another example of name coined after
another deeply embedded cultural term having nothing to do with
computing.

--
Will

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Fri, 21 Dec 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote:

I suspect the same common connection to "turbo", popularized by the auto
marketeers.
On the other hand, I've never seen a computer advertised with  a
"Turbo-Hydra-Matic" or "Dynaflow" feature.


such as "turbo LAG"

Should look around the yards for insignia, such as the Subaru
"Turbo XT 16"

Original PDP-11/10 [was: Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name]

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Dec 21, 2018, at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal
>> 'model'
>> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20
>> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the
>> other -8's.
>> 
>> 
>> 
> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers did
> not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called PDP
> 11/10 and PDP 11/20.  These are just as legitimate and well defined as the
> 11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one fact of
> the front plate.  The fact that the name does not appear on the front panel
> has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid.  Read the first
> brochure, don't take my word for it.
> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593
> 
> Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 and
> 11/10 existed from day one.  The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10
> model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the
> original 11/10 model.
> 
> Bill

Wow.

Did that V1 11/10 ever ship?  Do any still exist?

I'm curious about that 1 kW read-only memory.  What technology is that memory?  
At that size and that date I suspect core rope, but that would be pretty 
expensive (due to the labor involved).

paul

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Jim Carpenter via cctalk]

On 12/21/18 1:10 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:


On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:


"Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors

I never heard it called that before then.

Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date?


The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list predates alt.sys.pdp8 by a couple years. I 
just checked the archives and the earliest usage of 'straight-8' is from 
Charles Lasner in an e-mail introducing himself to the still new mailing 
list on August 10th, 1990. I've pasted his complete message at the 
bottom. The 'straight -8' is mentioned in the second sentence of his 
second paragraph.


A quick check shows that it was common for cjl to use the term 'straight-8'.


I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to
search Usenet by date right now.




I miss DejaNews. Damn I hate Google.

Jim


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    id AA20618; Fri, 10 Aug 90 05:12:20 EDT
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 90 5:12:19 EDT
From: Charles Lasner 
To: pdp8-lov...@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Belated Mail Reply
Message-Id: 

Date: Fri, 10 Aug 90 5:12:19 EDT
From: Charles Lasner 
To: pdp8-lov...@ai.mit.edu
Subject: Belated Mail Reply

>Received: from AI.AI.MIT.EDU (CHAOS 3130) by MC.LCS.MIT.EDU 18 Feb 89 
10:32:35 EST

>Date: Sat, 18 Feb 89 10:32:31 EST
>From: "Robert E. Seastrom" 
>To: pdp8-lov...@mc.lcs.mit.edu
>Message-ID: <540513.890218...@ai.ai.mit.edu>
>
>
>Well, folks, it's finally here.  The PDP8-LOVERS mailing list is now
>reality!  Messages for the list go to pdp8-lov...@mc.lcs.mit.edu;
>requests to be added to or deleted from the list go to
>pdp8-lovers-requ...@mc.lcs.mit.edu (case is _not_ critical here).
>
>Perhaps we ought to all introduce ourselves to each other...
>
>  This one's for you <7001>
>
>  -Rob

From:   cjl

    Let me introduce myself.  I am Charles J. Lasner.  I only use the
J to get my initials, which I usually go by, thus cjl.

    I am a PDP-8 programmer.  I don't know how many of us there are
left, but I started in 1968 with a straight -8 table-top machine at
Brooklyn PolyTechnic Institute.  The school probably has another name
by now, due to academia's answer to the business world's phenomena of
acquisitions and mergers.  The machine in question is quite
legendary.  The work done on it is responsible in LARGE part for why
all of us are here reading this, since this is the "original" PDP-8
used by the legendary Richard Lary and company.  If it can be said
that the PDP-8 created the phrase "mini-computer", then it is THIS
PDP-8 that made the "mini-computer" into something other than a
paper-tape machine!

    This PDP-8 was originally configured by the academics in charge
as a programmer's disaster: 4K, EAE, a model 33 teletype, AF01A A-D
converter with 16-channel multiplexor,  AA01A D-A converter with
(wow!) THREE channels.  A Bud blue rack cabinet housed the A-D and
D-A with lots of empty space.  All empty slots had those wonderful
super-thick zinctone panels, and the fronts were all in place; they
were held in place with those pressed-in heavy shiny metal threaded
bosses that most of you can't figure out the purpose of on your
wire-wrap racks.  As far as I know, these were the only style of
cabinet that the bosses were supplied for.  The plates used heavy
nickel-plated knurled knobs with a screw-driver slot you could turn
with a dime.

    Soon after all of this arrived, and got nowhere due to the
enormous waste of time paper-tape can be (especially at 110 baud and
unreliable at that!), a DEC salesman suggested a high-speed
reader/punch be added.  Fortunately for all of us, THIS NEVER
HAPPENED, for if it had, no further work of external significence
would have been done.  (The EE department would have been very happy
to just develop their diddly A-D and D-A experiment programs.)

    Due to the efforts of Richard Lary, Jack Burness, Hank Maurer,
Lenny Elekman, and Joseph R. Fischetti (to name a few legends I
knew), the EE department was convinced to spend MORE money on some
new-fangled beast the salesman had vaguely heard of; he was fairly
certain it was called a MicroTape.  This was, of course, an early
name for DECtape.  So the EE department shelled out another $8k and
got itself another Bud blue rack cabinet complete with sides, another
power controller, 11 buss cables, and a TC01 and one (yes one!) TU55
DECtape drive.  The academics thought that the drive was custom made
for the PDP-8, because the numeral "8" always appeared on the drive
select.  (No need to change drives when you have only one of them!) I
later found out why the "8" was there (not "0"):

    This is a throwback to 

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

>
>
>
> > From: Bill Degnan
>
> > The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the
> numbers
> > did not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were
> > called PDP 11/10 and PDP 11/20. ...  The fact that the name does not
> > appear on the front panel has caused every DEC historian to miss this
> > factoid.
>
> Yeah, it tripped me to. Although after I sent that email, I went back and
> looked, and it's called '-11/20' on all the documents I can find, including
> the prints.
>
> I'll check in the DEC archives (available on BitSavers), but I suspect the
> "PDP-11" on the front panel was the result of something getting dropped in
> the
> process of doing the panel, not the reasult of a name change by DEC.
>
>
>
Sorry to hijack the thread.

The URL I provided has links to documentation with a few early references
to the PDP 11 being 11/10 and 11/20 models that I could find.  A few
magazine articles, etc.  It's pretty well researched at this point to be
true to state that the first two PDP 11 models were the 11/10 and 11/20.
It just takes a while for this to work its way through academia.
Bill

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

>> people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the other
>> -8's.

So my assumption (that it was recent) seems to be incorrect; I heard that it
was in use in the 60's to differentiate it (e.g. for knowing what spares to
take). Alas, with the origin that far back in time, we'll probably never find
out what the connection was.

> From: Bill Degnan

> The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers
> did not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were
> called PDP 11/10 and PDP 11/20. ...  The fact that the name does not
> appear on the front panel has caused every DEC historian to miss this
> factoid.

Yeah, it tripped me to. Although after I sent that email, I went back and
looked, and it's called '-11/20' on all the documents I can find, including
the prints.

I'll check in the DEC archives (available on BitSavers), but I suspect the
"PDP-11" on the front panel was the result of something getting dropped in the
process of doing the panel, not the reasult of a name change by DEC.

Noel

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

>
>
>
> My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal
> 'model'
> for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20
> BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the
> other -8's.
>
>
>
The original PDP 11 was sold in two model options, although the numbers did
not appear on the faceplace, very clearly the model options were called PDP
11/10 and PDP 11/20.  These are just as legitimate and well defined as the
11/05 vs. 11/10 (later version) that followed it except for the one fact of
the front plate.  The fact that the name does not appear on the front panel
has caused every DEC historian to miss this factoid.  Read the first
brochure, don't take my word for it.
http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593

Momentum prevents change I get it, but it's clear that the model 11/20 and
11/10 existed from day one.  The problem is that DEC re-used the 11/10
model name again a few years later, the other cause for neglecting the
original 11/10 model.

Bill

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 12/21/18 10:56 AM, ben via cctalk wrote:

> Now I got a stupid image of the newer models adding 6 bits on every
> other clock phase for a faster cpu.
> 

Pratt & Whitney R-4360

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[ben via cctalk]

On 12/21/2018 11:37 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Back in the first half the 20th century, there were various
configurations of 8-cylinder internal combustion engines.

We're all familiar with the V-8, but there were inline 8-cylinder
designs used primarily on luxury cars, making for a wonderfully long
engine compartment.  Cord, Buick, Packard, Chrysler and Oldsmobile all
offered the "straight 8" on their high-end models.  Those were called
"straight-eights", I suspect because of the attractiveness of rhyming
name. "Straight 8" configuration was also used on some aircraft as well.

I suspect the name for the early PDP-8 is just a convenient adaptation
of a once well-known automotive term, much like "V-8".

For what it's worth, Ford experimented with an X-8 configuration as
well, but never put it into production.

--Chuck



Now I got a stupid image of the newer models adding 6 bits on every
other clock phase for a faster cpu.

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Bob Smith via cctalk]

Thank you Allison! I was trying to get my fingers to work and kept
having an attack of gasp how could someone not know?
Well said, hope you are doing GREAT!
bob smith, 8/e engineering, 8 engineering, DecComm11, LCG 2080

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 12:58 PM allison via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On 12/21/2018 10:10 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> > Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came
> > from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name,
> > but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope!
> >
> > Noel
> >
> ssrsly?
>
> It was the first PDP-8 no model letter like S, L, I, E, F, M, or A.  It
> was also the direct decedent of the
> PDP-5 (1963 and transistors) which was the first 12bit machine and
> largely compatible with later
> family of 8 machines.  The PDP-8 series started in 1965 and grew from there.
>
> When looking at the history LINK and LINK-8, PDP12, and later LAB-8 are
> also related and interleaved
> as laboratory machines.
>
> Simple answer, it was DECs first blockbuster machine that was
> manufactured in high volume and was
> very low cost in terms of the day.
>
> The transistor to IC change...  The 8I:
> Also commenting on ICs the 1970 Omnibus 8 (PDP-E)  was the largely MSI
> IC based machine (M series).
> The 8I/8L was the first TTL machine prior to that the systems were
> transistor.The march to higher density
> ICs was well underway.
>
> FYI my first contact was the DEC PDP8I fall of 1969  as part of the
> BOCES LIRICS timeshare system
> (NY, LI, Sufflok county schools). The following year (fall 1970) it was
> integrated into and part of the larger
> DEC System 10 timeshare system running TOPS-10.
>
> None of this is secret or difficult to find.  Doug Jones has a great
> archive.   http://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/
>
>
> Allison

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Back in the first half the 20th century, there were various
configurations of 8-cylinder internal combustion engines.

We're all familiar with the V-8, but there were inline 8-cylinder
designs used primarily on luxury cars, making for a wonderfully long
engine compartment.  Cord, Buick, Packard, Chrysler and Oldsmobile all
offered the "straight 8" on their high-end models.  Those were called
"straight-eights", I suspect because of the attractiveness of rhyming
name. "Straight 8" configuration was also used on some aircraft as well.

I suspect the name for the early PDP-8 is just a convenient adaptation
of a once well-known automotive term, much like "V-8".

For what it's worth, Ford experimented with an X-8 configuration as
well, but never put it into production.

--Chuck

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 12/21/18 10:16 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
> Or NGram.
> 

didn't see anything meaningful, but "minicomputer" and "software" are fun

minicomputer peaks in 1980

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

Or NGram.

--
Will

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 1:10 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
 wrote:
>
>
>
> On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>
> > "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors
> >
> > I never heard it called that before then.
>
> Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date?
>
> I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to
> search Usenet by date right now.
>
>

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 12/21/18 10:03 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

> "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors
> 
> I never heard it called that before then.

Anyone feel like doing a alt.sys.pdp-8 search for it by date?

I don't feel like going down the rathole of trying to find a way to
search Usenet by date right now.

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Al Kossow

> "Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors

My _guess_ is that that probably happened because there is no formal 'model'
for that first one (unlike the first -11, which got re-named the -11/20
BITD), and people recently picked that to disambiguate them from all the
other -8's.

But what I _don't_ know is _why_ that particular name? I was hoping some
-8 collector knew...

Noel

Re: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> AFAIK, the first ICs (in the modern sense) on FLIP CHIPS were on M-series.

I think the W706 and W707 predated the M series by a hair, using
commercial MRTL (I think). These were the early TTY
receiver/transmitter cards.

--
Will

Re: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk]

On 12/21/2018 2:49 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote:

There is an auction for some kind of early DEC module. It appears to be a
bit slice of MB, AR and MQ. There is also a signature by Gordon Bell on the
board.

But I cannot figure out which early machine it comes from.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-6205-Arithmetic-Registers-Circuit-Board-for-Vintage-Mainframe/264093791320?hash=item3d7d377458:g:U2AAAOSwpTBcGULN

The same seller has several other pre Flip-Chip modules like 4706 Teletype
Receiver. If I read correctly the transistors are dated 1963-1964.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-4706C-8-Bit-Teletype-Receiver-Circuit-Board-for-Vintage-Mainframe/323607301613?hash=item4b587f8ded:g:AMcAAOSwXF5cGUH9


They are from a PDP_5. I have a 5 so am bidding on a few of the boards.

Bob

--
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 12/21/18 9:58 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> On 12/21/2018 10:10 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>> Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came
>> from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name,
>> but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope!
>>
>> Noel
>>
> ssrsly?
> 

yes

"Straight-8" seems to be a fairly modern name coming from collectors

I never heard it called that before then.

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[allison via cctalk]

On 12/21/2018 10:10 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came
> from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name,
> but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope!
>
> Noel
>
ssrsly?

It was the first PDP-8 no model letter like S, L, I, E, F, M, or A.  It
was also the direct decedent of the
PDP-5 (1963 and transistors) which was the first 12bit machine and
largely compatible with later
family of 8 machines.  The PDP-8 series started in 1965 and grew from there.

When looking at the history LINK and LINK-8, PDP12, and later LAB-8 are
also related and interleaved
as laboratory machines.

Simple answer, it was DECs first blockbuster machine that was
manufactured in high volume and was
very low cost in terms of the day.

The transistor to IC change...  The 8I:
Also commenting on ICs the 1970 Omnibus 8 (PDP-E)  was the largely MSI
IC based machine (M series).
The 8I/8L was the first TTL machine prior to that the systems were
transistor.    The march to higher density
ICs was well underway. 

FYI my first contact was the DEC PDP8I fall of 1969  as part of the
BOCES LIRICS timeshare system
(NY, LI, Sufflok county schools). The following year (fall 1970) it was
integrated into and part of the larger
DEC System 10 timeshare system running TOPS-10.

None of this is secret or difficult to find.  Doug Jones has a great
archive.   http://homepage.divms.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/


Allison

Re: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Allison

> IC as in digital logic were in production in the early 60s

Yes, but if you look at the picture/manual (I found a "Module location for
I/O" chart on pg. 335 of the PDP-7 Maint Manual - alas, not the whole
machine, just the FLIP CHIP part), the PDP-7 is all B-series and R-series
FLIP CHIPs, which are all discrete transistors.

AFAIK, the first ICs (in the modern sense) on FLIP CHIPS were on M-series.

Noel

Re: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[allison via cctalk]

On 12/21/2018 09:33 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> > through (I think) the PDP-7; at least, this PDP-7 internals image
> > .. seems to show System Modules at the top, and FLIP CHIPs at the
> > bottom.
>
> After groveling through the 'PDP-7 Maintainence Manual' (F-77A), this seems to
> be accurate. In "Module Identification" (pg. 6-5), it refers to both types; 
> the
> example on the next page uses a 4303, a 4000-Series System Module.
>
> What's interesting is the physical layout; all System Modules at the top of
> that image, and FLIP CHIPs at the bottom. No doubt this is partially for
> mechanical reasons (the two used different backplanes), but I wonder about the
> division into sub-systems; were the two types interspersed among each other in
> individual sub-systems (rewquiring running wires from the top to the bottom),
> or were sub-systems exclusively one or the other (so that the top of the bay
> is one sub-system, and the bottom another)?
>
> No doubt I could answer this by studying the prints, but time is short; 
> perhaps
> someone who worked on the one at the LCM and already knows the answer can
> enlighten us!
>
> Noel
IC as in digital logic  were in production in the early 60s and RTL/DTL
the  oldest I was playing with as a kid by '66
and TTL started to appear well before 1970.  The stuff of the day was
2input Nand, Nor, 4 bit counters, and
similar SSI logic.

We forget the AGC Apollo guidance computer used a dual 3input NOR RTL
dating to 1960.  This was already
old by 1970.  People were building frequency counters with RTL
(uL914/923, MC789 and friends as
"hobbyist chips" it by then.  Least I was able to buy uL9xx, MC7XX,
MC10K,  in the late 60s for under a
dollar a package.

The transition from transistors to ICs was fast.  Cost and space were
drivers and generally speed as well.
The industry needed faster and more reliable and interconnects needed to
be fewer.  At the same time ICs
went from 1960 dual 3input nor to MSI (7483 quad full adder and 74181
ALU) in about 10 years.  The computer
industry were the early consumers.

Allison

Re: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 12/21/2018 07:19 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

 > From: Mattis Lind

 > I cannot figure out which early machine it comes from.

They're called 'System Modules':

   http://gunkies.org/wiki/System_Module

and they were used from the PDP-1 through (I think) the PDP-7; at least, this
PDP-7 internals image:

   https://www.soemtron.org/images/jpgs/decimages/sn113robertjohnson85680004.jpg

seems to show System Modules at the top, and FLIP CHIPs at the bottom. (I'm
pretty sure even the first PDP-8 - the 'straight 8' - uses only early FLIP
CHIPs - transistorized ones.)

The DEC brochure for it (P5141) is a little puzzling; it says (p. 2) that
"INTEGRATED CIRCUITS are basic elements of the low cost, newly designed
silicon FLIP CHIP modules used throughout PDP-7", but AFAIK, the first FLIP
CHIPs (R-series, B-series, etc) were all transistors; the later M-series were
the first ones to have ICs. Maybe this is some old meaning of "integrated
circuits"?


Yes, PDP-5 and DEC LINC were made with "System Building 
Blocks", similar in technology to the board pictured, but 
single-width and wrapped in an aluminum frame, with a blue 
connector hand-wired to one end.  Single-sided, 
paper-phenolic PCBs.
Kind of similar to half of the board in the picture.  I 
think this same technology was used in a number of other 
machines.  Discrete transistors, diode-steered 
capacitor-coupled FFs, really ANCIENT technology.


The "classic" PDP-8 was built with basically the same 
circuit technology, but on smaller, unframed glass-epoxy 
PCBs with etched and gold-plated card-edge fingers, with 
color-coded handles indicating what technology was on it.  
So, basic logic was R with red handles, memory boards 
(select, read amp, etc.) were G with green handles, etc.


Jon

Re: More old stuff incoming

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 12/21/18 1:07 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:

no, emulators will not cut it


Would you please expand upon that?

Are you saying that things like a Raspberry Pi running RetroPi (I think 
that's the name) don't suffice / satisfy as the real thing that they are 
emulating?


Or are you including things like the new retro consoles that original 
vendors are coming out with?  (The palm sized SNES from Nintendo comes 
to mind.)


Do you have any idea why these newer things are not cutting it?

I've also had great success with running '90s era games in DOSBox on 
what ever computer happens to be handy.  Does that not work at all for 
you / your crew?




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 12/21/18 5:19 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

> The DEC brochure for it (P5141) is a little puzzling; it says (p. 2) that
> "INTEGRATED CIRCUITS are basic elements of the low cost, newly designed
> silicon FLIP CHIP modules used throughout PDP-7", but AFAIK, the first FLIP
> CHIPs (R-series, B-series, etc) were all transistors; the later M-series were
> the first ones to have ICs. Maybe this is some old meaning of "integrated
> circuits"?

The original "Flip Chip" was a packaging failure. It was literally a die bonded 
to a PCB
and never went into production.

I think it is mentioned in "Computer Engineering"

IBM perfected the techniques to do this later with the development of solder 
bumps and
IR reflow.

Re: Public buy/sell/trade

[Carlo Pisani via cctalk]

besides, the GPDR and this new hipster legal stuff (in Europe) are now
making things even more complex, especially if a website is involved
in e-commerce
.



Il giorno ven 21 dic 2018 alle ore 16:57 Carlo Pisani
 ha scritto:
>
> well, we tried to implement a new module, but ... yet again without a
> budget, and without interest I personally dropped the whole project
>
> http://www.downthebunker.xyz/wonderland/experimental-bay/app0.php
>
> Il giorno ven 21 dic 2018 alle ore 16:33 Electronics Plus via cctalk
>  ha scritto:
> >
> > For months I have been trying to implement a "multi-vendor marketplace". 
> > Without a budget, it is almost impossible. There is a free software, 
> > Sellacious, which runs off Joomla. Out of the box, it does not work. It has 
> > MAJOR security holes. However, it was the ONLY one I could find where more 
> > than one seller could sell the same product. Suppose 5 people have 1391401 
> > keyboards. In almost every other system, you would have 5 separate 
> > listings. I wanted something more like Amazon, where the item is listed 
> > ONCE, and then each seller can set his price and a description of the 
> > condition, etc.
> >
> > I am most familiar with Magento, which is what I use. There is a 
> > multi-vendor add-on available, but the base package is $399, and then you 
> > go up from there with features, like each seller being able to input his 
> > own shipping methods/rates and payment methods.
> >
> > Deskthority donated the space for such a market, and offered to host it, 
> > but no one has the time to update/maintain it. If it were Magento, I would 
> > do it, but I don't have $400+ to invest in the extra software (basic 
> > Magento CE is free).
> >
> > If someone wants to donate the funds, or write a good working module for 
> > Magento multi-vendor, I will be happy to set it up an maintain it.
> >
> > The advantages to Magento are many, but it has a few drawbacks too. You can 
> > do almost anything with it, but it can be a little slow. The community is 
> > very active.
> >
> > There are numerous tiny sites for buying and selling that are not very 
> > active anymore, and most use a PHP BB type system, which will not let you 
> > list and buy like a true ecommerce does. It also does not tell you when 
> > something is out of stock, or allow you to add it to a wishlist.
> >
> > Cindy
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant 
> > Taylor via cctalk
> > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 5:07 PM
> > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> > Subject: Re: Want/Available list
> >
> > On 12/20/2018 03:46 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote:
> > > I too want a web forum venue for hunting, acquiring and dispersing
> > > vintage computing gear, with a restoration/collector slant, ie not about
> > > the money, ie I'm poor, ha ha.  A mailing list is NOT an appropriate
> > > context. It has no categories, is ephemeral, chews local storage, has
> > > no hot-linking, and demands more real-time attention than I can spare.
> >
> > Is there really a dearth of satisfactory locations for people to swap /
> > trade / buy / sell computer equipment?
> >
> > I've not seriously looked.  But I feel like this should have been solved
> > already.  Maybe it has an the typical places are running people off or
> > otherwise unappealing.
> >
> > What would people want in such a swap-n-shop?
> >
> > In some ways it's a basic inventory management system, with the ability
> > for people to add their own listings.
> >
> > I feel like the community could likely benefit from an associated forum
> > to discuss things without bogging down the business transactions.
> >
> > I would want it easy to search and find things, or possibly even
> > register as being interested in being notified when someone lists
> > something for sale in the future.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Grant. . . .
> > unix || die
> >
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> >

Re: Public buy/sell/trade

[Carlo Pisani via cctalk]

well, we tried to implement a new module, but ... yet again without a
budget, and without interest I personally dropped the whole project

http://www.downthebunker.xyz/wonderland/experimental-bay/app0.php

Il giorno ven 21 dic 2018 alle ore 16:33 Electronics Plus via cctalk
 ha scritto:
>
> For months I have been trying to implement a "multi-vendor marketplace". 
> Without a budget, it is almost impossible. There is a free software, 
> Sellacious, which runs off Joomla. Out of the box, it does not work. It has 
> MAJOR security holes. However, it was the ONLY one I could find where more 
> than one seller could sell the same product. Suppose 5 people have 1391401 
> keyboards. In almost every other system, you would have 5 separate listings. 
> I wanted something more like Amazon, where the item is listed ONCE, and then 
> each seller can set his price and a description of the condition, etc.
>
> I am most familiar with Magento, which is what I use. There is a multi-vendor 
> add-on available, but the base package is $399, and then you go up from there 
> with features, like each seller being able to input his own shipping 
> methods/rates and payment methods.
>
> Deskthority donated the space for such a market, and offered to host it, but 
> no one has the time to update/maintain it. If it were Magento, I would do it, 
> but I don't have $400+ to invest in the extra software (basic Magento CE is 
> free).
>
> If someone wants to donate the funds, or write a good working module for 
> Magento multi-vendor, I will be happy to set it up an maintain it.
>
> The advantages to Magento are many, but it has a few drawbacks too. You can 
> do almost anything with it, but it can be a little slow. The community is 
> very active.
>
> There are numerous tiny sites for buying and selling that are not very active 
> anymore, and most use a PHP BB type system, which will not let you list and 
> buy like a true ecommerce does. It also does not tell you when something is 
> out of stock, or allow you to add it to a wishlist.
>
> Cindy
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor 
> via cctalk
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 5:07 PM
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Want/Available list
>
> On 12/20/2018 03:46 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote:
> > I too want a web forum venue for hunting, acquiring and dispersing
> > vintage computing gear, with a restoration/collector slant, ie not about
> > the money, ie I'm poor, ha ha.  A mailing list is NOT an appropriate
> > context. It has no categories, is ephemeral, chews local storage, has
> > no hot-linking, and demands more real-time attention than I can spare.
>
> Is there really a dearth of satisfactory locations for people to swap /
> trade / buy / sell computer equipment?
>
> I've not seriously looked.  But I feel like this should have been solved
> already.  Maybe it has an the typical places are running people off or
> otherwise unappealing.
>
> What would people want in such a swap-n-shop?
>
> In some ways it's a basic inventory management system, with the ability
> for people to add their own listings.
>
> I feel like the community could likely benefit from an associated forum
> to discuss things without bogging down the business transactions.
>
> I would want it easy to search and find things, or possibly even
> register as being interested in being notified when someone lists
> something for sale in the future.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>

Re: Public buy/sell/trade

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

how u looked at wordpress?

On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 9:33 AM Electronics Plus via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> For months I have been trying to implement a "multi-vendor marketplace".
> Without a budget, it is almost impossible. There is a free software,
> Sellacious, which runs off Joomla. Out of the box, it does not work. It has
> MAJOR security holes. However, it was the ONLY one I could find where more
> than one seller could sell the same product. Suppose 5 people have 1391401
> keyboards. In almost every other system, you would have 5 separate
> listings. I wanted something more like Amazon, where the item is listed
> ONCE, and then each seller can set his price and a description of the
> condition, etc.
>
> I am most familiar with Magento, which is what I use. There is a
> multi-vendor add-on available, but the base package is $399, and then you
> go up from there with features, like each seller being able to input his
> own shipping methods/rates and payment methods.
>
> Deskthority donated the space for such a market, and offered to host it,
> but no one has the time to update/maintain it. If it were Magento, I would
> do it, but I don't have $400+ to invest in the extra software (basic
> Magento CE is free).
>
> If someone wants to donate the funds, or write a good working module for
> Magento multi-vendor, I will be happy to set it up an maintain it.
>
> The advantages to Magento are many, but it has a few drawbacks too. You
> can do almost anything with it, but it can be a little slow. The community
> is very active.
>
> There are numerous tiny sites for buying and selling that are not very
> active anymore, and most use a PHP BB type system, which will not let you
> list and buy like a true ecommerce does. It also does not tell you when
> something is out of stock, or allow you to add it to a wishlist.
>
> Cindy
>
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant
> Taylor via cctalk
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 5:07 PM
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Want/Available list
>
> On 12/20/2018 03:46 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote:
> > I too want a web forum venue for hunting, acquiring and dispersing
> > vintage computing gear, with a restoration/collector slant, ie not about
> > the money, ie I'm poor, ha ha.  A mailing list is NOT an appropriate
> > context. It has no categories, is ephemeral, chews local storage, has
> > no hot-linking, and demands more real-time attention than I can spare.
>
> Is there really a dearth of satisfactory locations for people to swap /
> trade / buy / sell computer equipment?
>
> I've not seriously looked.  But I feel like this should have been solved
> already.  Maybe it has an the typical places are running people off or
> otherwise unappealing.
>
> What would people want in such a swap-n-shop?
>
> In some ways it's a basic inventory management system, with the ability
> for people to add their own listings.
>
> I feel like the community could likely benefit from an associated forum
> to discuss things without bogging down the business transactions.
>
> I would want it easy to search and find things, or possibly even
> register as being interested in being notified when someone lists
> something for sale in the future.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>

Sun hdd available

[Electronics Plus via cctalk]

Maybe of interest, maybe too new?

 

WTS SUN ULTRA 25 / 45 SATA H, REF, qty 15, CALL, Sun Ultra 25 / 45 Sata HDD
WTS The following Sun Ulta 25 / 45 Sata HDD :

390-0303 - 80GB Sata HDD - Qty 15
390-0351 - 160GB Sata HDD - Qty 15

Let me know qty you interested, and we send you prices include shipping


Thanks

Ronen Gispan
ro...@tom-c.co.il

Not affiliated with seller, etc.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sa...@elecplus.com

 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Public buy/sell/trade

[Electronics Plus via cctalk]

For months I have been trying to implement a "multi-vendor marketplace". 
Without a budget, it is almost impossible. There is a free software, 
Sellacious, which runs off Joomla. Out of the box, it does not work. It has 
MAJOR security holes. However, it was the ONLY one I could find where more than 
one seller could sell the same product. Suppose 5 people have 1391401 
keyboards. In almost every other system, you would have 5 separate listings. I 
wanted something more like Amazon, where the item is listed ONCE, and then each 
seller can set his price and a description of the condition, etc.

I am most familiar with Magento, which is what I use. There is a multi-vendor 
add-on available, but the base package is $399, and then you go up from there 
with features, like each seller being able to input his own shipping 
methods/rates and payment methods.

Deskthority donated the space for such a market, and offered to host it, but no 
one has the time to update/maintain it. If it were Magento, I would do it, but 
I don't have $400+ to invest in the extra software (basic Magento CE is free).

If someone wants to donate the funds, or write a good working module for 
Magento multi-vendor, I will be happy to set it up an maintain it.

The advantages to Magento are many, but it has a few drawbacks too. You can do 
almost anything with it, but it can be a little slow. The community is very 
active.

There are numerous tiny sites for buying and selling that are not very active 
anymore, and most use a PHP BB type system, which will not let you list and buy 
like a true ecommerce does. It also does not tell you when something is out of 
stock, or allow you to add it to a wishlist.

Cindy

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor 
via cctalk
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2018 5:07 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Want/Available list

On 12/20/2018 03:46 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote:
> I too want a web forum venue for hunting, acquiring and dispersing
> vintage computing gear, with a restoration/collector slant, ie not about 
> the money, ie I'm poor, ha ha.  A mailing list is NOT an appropriate
> context. It has no categories, is ephemeral, chews local storage, has
> no hot-linking, and demands more real-time attention than I can spare.

Is there really a dearth of satisfactory locations for people to swap /
trade / buy / sell computer equipment?

I've not seriously looked.  But I feel like this should have been solved
already.  Maybe it has an the typical places are running people off or
otherwise unappealing.

What would people want in such a swap-n-shop?

In some ways it's a basic inventory management system, with the ability
for people to add their own listings.

I feel like the community could likely benefit from an associated forum
to discuss things without bogging down the business transactions.

I would want it easy to search and find things, or possibly even
register as being interested in being notified when someone lists
something for sale in the future.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made

[Carlo Pisani via cctalk]

> Wouldn't a RPi-Zero Wireless be easier, cheaper, smaller, quicker?
> Could even use a CM-3 in a custom case.

I have already given points to our reasons. Do you like RPI? Go and use it!

Re: Project sonoko, x11 xterm home-made

[alan--- via cctalk]

Wouldn't a RPi-Zero Wireless be easier, cheaper, smaller, quicker?  
Could even use a CM-3 in a custom case.


-Alan


On 2018-12-20 13:46, Carlo Pisani via cctech wrote:

The prototype (1) is already working; in the pic, there is a DHT board
with a Matrox Millennium video card, and a PCI-PS/2 card. The pic
shows a running windows manager on x11.
we are using a little PowerPC 405GP board, loaded with Linux and
xorg-x11. The processor's ISA is similar to a G3 CPU, but not exactly
equal. We had to create a specific toolchain for it.

The rootfs is derived from Gentoo/Linux by using Catalyst on QEMU/PPC.
It's neat enough, and the whole process is under control (we can
choose flags, and rebuild the whole accordingly)

Currently, the only problem we have is related to the kernel,
specifically to support DeviceTree and the 405 CPU which has a weird
address alignment, thus it wastes a lot of cycles in kernel space.

If someone has experience with this CPU, we are open to hints and tips.

(1)
http://93.55.217.0/wonderland/chunk_of/stuff/public/projects/sonoko-x11/node-board/dht-proto-1.png

Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

Does anyone know where the 'Straight 8' name for the first PDP-8 model came
from? Obviously, it's probably a play on the car engine configuration name,
but how did the connection get made? Thanks - I hope!

Noel

Re: Want/Available list

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Dec 20, 2018, at 6:27 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 12/20/18 6:59 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>> Websites are a huge inconvenience or imposition, email lists are not.
> 
> I like Usenet too.
> 
> I really like all three to be the same content.  That way people can 
> participate what ever way they like best.

I like Usenet as well, I find it a better medium than any website.  Though the 
main group that still seems active is comp.os.vms.  I finally figured out how 
to get back on about a year ago.

> I think at least part of that is because a lot of people naively think that 
> email is for communicating with friends that don't use the same social media 
> and is otherwise generally broadcast only.  A lot of people I talk to don't 
> view email as interactive communications / dialog.  In my not so humble 
> opinion, that's their loss.

I find there is little or no value in Social Media, on the other hand there is 
real value in email.  One of those values is the ability to build archives of 
knowledge independent of any given website.  Having said that, I recently 
needed some info from CLASSICCMP from the late 90’s, and couldn’t find it on my 
computer.  Either the files are missing, or else it’s just because Mail.app is 
so pathetic about searching.

Zane

Re: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> through (I think) the PDP-7; at least, this PDP-7 internals image
> .. seems to show System Modules at the top, and FLIP CHIPs at the
> bottom.

After groveling through the 'PDP-7 Maintainence Manual' (F-77A), this seems to
be accurate. In "Module Identification" (pg. 6-5), it refers to both types; the
example on the next page uses a 4303, a 4000-Series System Module.

What's interesting is the physical layout; all System Modules at the top of
that image, and FLIP CHIPs at the bottom. No doubt this is partially for
mechanical reasons (the two used different backplanes), but I wonder about the
division into sub-systems; were the two types interspersed among each other in
individual sub-systems (rewquiring running wires from the top to the bottom),
or were sub-systems exclusively one or the other (so that the top of the bay
is one sub-system, and the bottom another)?

No doubt I could answer this by studying the prints, but time is short; perhaps
someone who worked on the one at the LCM and already knows the answer can
enlighten us!

  Noel

Re: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Dec 21, 2018, at 8:19 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
> The DEC brochure for it (P5141) is a little puzzling; it says (p. 2) that
> "INTEGRATED CIRCUITS are basic elements of the low cost, newly designed
> silicon FLIP CHIP modules used throughout PDP-7", but AFAIK, the first FLIP
> CHIPs (R-series, B-series, etc) were all transistors; the later M-series were
> the first ones to have ICs. Maybe this is some old meaning of "integrated
> circuits"?
> 
>   Noel

It's odd wording for sure, and doesn't feel like a common use of the term from 
before the arrival of monolithic integrated circuits.  But there is some 
precedent; through the 1970s if not somewhat later there were "hybrid 
integrated circuits", often found in high performance A/D and D/A converters.  
Those are essentially compact circuit modules, but typically with unusual 
substrates like ceramic ones instead of PC boards, and surface mount components 
when PCBs used all through-hole components.  So "integrated circuit" wasn't 
limited to the "monolithic" kind back then.

I sometimes refer to "hollow state integrated circuits" to describe the 
complete multi-stage amplifier in a single package built by Loewe of Germany in 
the 1930s; look for "Loewe 3NF".

paul

Re: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[John Foust via cctalk]

At 04:49 AM 12/21/2018, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote:
>There is an auction for some kind of early DEC module. It appears to be a
>bit slice of MB, AR and MQ. There is also a signature by Gordon Bell on the
>board.

Back in 2006 I asked Gordon Bell to confirm the provenance
of a similar board that I bought on eBay in 2001.  See below.

- John

From: "Gordon Bell" 
To: "John Foust" 

Yes. 
I signed the PDP-6, 4 register, bit slice board in the photo. 
It came from the Computer Museum in Boston where it was sold in their store
 
Let me be clear The Computer Museum (TCM) was NEVER called the Boston Computer 
Museum... 
Boston was a temporary home when computing passed through New England, but the 
city itself gave nothing to it.
 
I don't believe the origin can be traced to any machine, since there were no 
serial numbers, and the modification level would also be too hard to correlate 
with any time or place.
The Museum got a large number of spares and scraps of all kinds from Digital 
and it was undoubtedly one of those.
To my knowledge, the museum has never engaged in gutting machines for 
components, although I would happily agree that this is a good idea when we 
have duplicates and crippled or partial artifacts.
 
As a former collector, founder, and board member of the Digital Computer Museum 
> The Computer Museum >> current Computer History Museum (a name I deplore and 
that exists only because of the way the Museum left Boston) I have always been 
a strong advocate of getting as many artifacts into as many hands as possible, 
and this includes selling museum artifacts when appropriate.  In essence a 
whole industry of museums and collectors is essential.
 
Incidentally, at one point there was a flame in pre-blog days about the tragedy 
of the museum selling boards, etc. in which I never engaged.
As someone who has contributed about $10 million as well as time, etc. to this 
endeavor, I can only shake my head... and wonder where those folks were when 
the museum needed their financial and time support.
 
The lovely ending is that the museum finally has a wonderful home and caring 
environment with lots of people that support it with love, time, and money.
Hope you have or intend to visit it in Mountain View.
 
I trust I have your own financial support and trust you are a member there, too.
See www.computerhistory.org 
 
g
 
-Original Message-
From: John Foust [mailto:jfo...@threedee.com] 
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 1:31 AM
To: Gordon Bell
Subject: PDP-6 board from BCM?
 
 
Can I confirm the provenance of an item I purchased?
 
It's an S6205D board, signed by "Gordon Bell".  Below is a Usenet
post that may describe the event at the Boston Computer Museum
where it was first sold.
 
Did you sign this board, and do you remember the circumstances?
 
- John 

Article 1624 of alt.sys.pdp10:
Path: 
shellx.best.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!lead.zk3.dec.com!zk2nws.zko.dec.com!denton.zko.dec.com!amartin
From: amar...@denton.zko.dec.com (Alan H. Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp10
Subject: Re: Working for PDP-10 En
Date: 21 Feb 1996 13:12:21 GMT
Organization: DEC
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4gf5nl$k...@zk2nws.zko.dec.com>
References:  <1996feb14.16493...@eisner.decus.org> 

NNTP-Posting-Host: denton.zko.dec.com
 
In article  alder...@netcom.com writes:
>In article <1996feb14.16493...@eisner.decus.org> steven...@eisner.decus.org
>(Jack H. Stevens) writes:
...
>>How about trying The Computer Museum, in Boston? (also at http://www.tcm.org)
> 
>Bad idea.  The Computer Museum has buried any interesting (read "36-bit")
>hardware.  They were given, for example, the Stanford Artificial Intelligence
>Laboratory PDP-6 in 1984, after it was shown at the Fall DECUS Symposia (for
>the 20th Anniversary of 36-Bit Computing).
> 
>It has never been made available for public view; as far as anyone can tell,
>it has disappeared from the face of the earth.
 
I'm hazy on dates, but if the 6 in question was donated before the museum's
move from MR2 to Boston, you ain't likely to see it in one piece ever again.

They had a garage sale of unwanted items in the MR1 cafeteria one Saturday
before the move, and were selling a PDP-6 module-by-module.  An S6205K
"Arithmetic Registers" module (1-bit slice of AR/MQ/MB/) went
for $7, autographed by Gordon Bell.
 
I asked him whether read-in mode was implemented as a diode array encoding
instructions.  He said no, and kindly recommended the 6205 as a particularly
central module to have, instead.
   /AHM
-- 
Alan Howard Martinamar...@tle.enet.dec.com
  

Re: Pdp1 for mister fpga

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Dec 21, 2018, at 8:06 AM, Kevin Lee via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/FPG1_MiSTer
> 
> Emulates pdp1 crt paper tape.
> 
> Real fun.

That's an impressive piece of work.  I've been thinking about emulating a CRT 
display in an FPGA, it's not a simple task but this project has delivered 
exactly that.

Something like that might be interesting to LCM, to deliver a realistic DD60 
display without needing to run the real (somewhat fragile) old hardware.

paul

Re: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Mattis Lind

> I cannot figure out which early machine it comes from.

They're called 'System Modules':

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/System_Module

and they were used from the PDP-1 through (I think) the PDP-7; at least, this
PDP-7 internals image:

  https://www.soemtron.org/images/jpgs/decimages/sn113robertjohnson85680004.jpg

seems to show System Modules at the top, and FLIP CHIPs at the bottom. (I'm
pretty sure even the first PDP-8 - the 'straight 8' - uses only early FLIP
CHIPs - transistorized ones.)

The DEC brochure for it (P5141) is a little puzzling; it says (p. 2) that
"INTEGRATED CIRCUITS are basic elements of the low cost, newly designed
silicon FLIP CHIP modules used throughout PDP-7", but AFAIK, the first FLIP
CHIPs (R-series, B-series, etc) were all transistors; the later M-series were
the first ones to have ICs. Maybe this is some old meaning of "integrated
circuits"?

Noel

Pdp1 for mister fpga

[Kevin Lee via cctalk]

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/FPG1_MiSTer

Emulates pdp1 crt paper tape.

Real fun.

Re: Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[Mattis Lind via cctalk]

Den fre 21 dec. 2018 kl 12:03 skrev Rod Smallwood via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org>:

> It could be a prototype that never made it to production, internal
> automated test gear or a bespoke job.
>

Do you know or just guessing? Why would it be some kind of test gear with a
AR, MQ, and MB designation?

I searched a bit more and the PDP-6 has exactly AR, MQ and MB registers. My
guess it comes from a PDP-6 since it was not used in the PDP-1, PDP-4 and
PDP-5 from looking in the maintenance manuals.. Then I found this manual:

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp6/F-67_circuitInstr_May66.pdf

Which confirms that is from a PDP-6. Page 3-13. It also makes sense since
one of the other boards from the same seller has a tag on it which indicate
PDP-6.

Case closed..


>
> Rod
>
>
> On 21/12/2018 10:49, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote:
> > There is an auction for some kind of early DEC module. It appears to be a
> > bit slice of MB, AR and MQ. There is also a signature by Gordon Bell on
> the
> > board.
> >
> > But I cannot figure out which early machine it comes from.
> >
> >
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-6205-Arithmetic-Registers-Circuit-Board-for-Vintage-Mainframe/264093791320?hash=item3d7d377458:g:U2AAAOSwpTBcGULN
> >
> > The same seller has several other pre Flip-Chip modules like 4706
> Teletype
> > Receiver. If I read correctly the transistors are dated 1963-1964.
> >
> >
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-4706C-8-Bit-Teletype-Receiver-Circuit-Board-for-Vintage-Mainframe/323607301613?hash=item4b587f8ded:g:AMcAAOSwXF5cGUH9
>
> --
>
>
>

Re: Want/Available list

[Peter Coghlan via cctalk]

On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote:

>
> OK, so it's down *to* the bunker or down *in* the bunker. I'm just asking
> because of my language geekery. I still don't know, though, whether "down
> the bunker" without a preposition is idiomatic in some dialect of English I
> don't speak fluently. I just know some UK English speakers pronounce "down
> to the/down at the" ALMOST the same as "down the", but I believe there's
> still a glottal stop in the former but not the latter.
>

How about: "There's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's Elvis"

Can we get back to the on-topic stuff now :-)

Regards,
Peter Coghlan

Re: Orphan HP Alphaservers looking for a new home

[Peter Coghlan via cctalk]

On Tue, 18 Dec 2018, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote:

>
> I also know that the DS20 mother boards had hardware on them such as USB
> controllers and maybe SCSI controllers that were not supported by either
> OS.
>

I recall having a retired DS20 doing light duties back at the office.  It
used to crash occasionally and somebody found it was still on the maintenance
contract so we got the DEC (or whatever they were called that week) engineer
to take a look at it.  He declared that the internal disk being plugged into
the onboard SCSI controller was the source of the problem because this
configuration was not supported by VMS.  We were somewhat surprised by this
as we thought that "not supported" in this context meant that VMS probably
didn't have a driver for the onboard controller at some point in the past but
it must have been added since because it seemed to work fine when we tried it.

There were no further problems after a PCI SCSI controller was added and the
disk was plugged into this instead.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Which DEC machine made use of th pre Flip-Chip board?

[Mattis Lind via cctalk]

There is an auction for some kind of early DEC module. It appears to be a
bit slice of MB, AR and MQ. There is also a signature by Gordon Bell on the
board.

But I cannot figure out which early machine it comes from.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-6205-Arithmetic-Registers-Circuit-Board-for-Vintage-Mainframe/264093791320?hash=item3d7d377458:g:U2AAAOSwpTBcGULN

The same seller has several other pre Flip-Chip modules like 4706 Teletype
Receiver. If I read correctly the transistors are dated 1963-1964.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-4706C-8-Bit-Teletype-Receiver-Circuit-Board-for-Vintage-Mainframe/323607301613?hash=item4b587f8ded:g:AMcAAOSwXF5cGUH9

Re: More old stuff incoming

[Jim Manley via cctalk]

I teach 7th - 12th grade Science (all of them) and Computing at a very
rural Little Red Brick K-12 Schoolhouse beyond The Middle of Nowhere in
Montana.  Even waay out here, there are kids who just love, love, love
retro 80s games, and no, emulators will not cut it, thank you very much.
We recently received a graciously-donated SX-64 (a Commodore 64 with a
color display, keyboard, floppy disk drive, etc., integrated in a box), and
the kids stand in line waiting excitedly to run simulations (some might
incorrectly confuse them with games) and create sonic renderings (again,
some might confuse this with playing music).  The system came with a C
Power compiler, assembler, and linker, and the built-in BASIC has plenty of
capabilities to enable students to create pretty much anything they can
imagine.  I acquired a second SX-64 that, despite a somewhat wonky
keyboard, is just as popular as the first one we received.

A really well-designed and executed game will be a hit, even with chunky,
clunky graphics with only 16 colors, half of which are black, and goofy,
calliope-like music!  Text-based games based on great stories still have
rabid fans, with new audiences as each successive generation that discovers
them.  Photorealistic graphics tend to highlight flaws in 3-D models, such
as eyes that don't seem to be looking in quite the right directions to
represent focus at an appropriate point.  Our visual system craves matching
what we're currently seeing with what we recall seeing before, and even
tiny dissonances get our acute attention.

This detracts from playability by being a major distraction, even if it's
happening at a subconscious level.  Great stories transcend
much-less-than-perfect special effects, precisely because they allow the
players' imaginations to fill in the missing pieces.  The fans of retro
games want to escape the virtual reality of high-resolution graphics and
all of the gore that's typically associated with it.  The results of the
desensitization of young people through realistic-looking violence and,
frankly, pornography, are pretty clear from the suicide, mass shooting, and
sexual assault statistics and headlines.