Re: CDC modules

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

why not post a few pics?

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 11:50 AM Peter Van Peborgh via cctech <
cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Guys,
>
> I am wanting to determine which CDC (or possibly other) computer some of my
> modules came from. If you were a CDC employee around the time of CDC 6xxx
> computers, let me know where I could send my photos for identification of
> these items.
> Many thanks,
> peter
>
> || |  |   || |  |   ||
> Peter Van Peborgh
> 62 St Mary's Rise
> Writhlington  Radstock
> SomersetBA3 3PD
> UK
> 01761 439 234
> || |  |   || |  |   ||
>
>
>

Re: Free: 2x DEC Alpha workstations - 164LX and XP1000

[K. Arun via cctalk]

Hello,

Thanks for the replies - I have takers for the XP1000 and 164LX. If it
falls through, I'll reach out directly.

Arun

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 3:47 PM Kevin Monceaux via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Arun,
>
> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:26:41AM -0600, K. Arun via cctalk wrote:
>
> > I have a couple of Alpha workstations that were last used 5-6 years ago
> > with some version of Tru64 on them. They haven't been turned on since,
> and
> > may need some work to get running again. They're free to anyone who
> thinks
> > they can use them, and can pick them up from the 78722 zip code (near UT
> > Austin).  Please contact me off-list to co-ordinate pickup.
>
> I sent you an off-list reply, but thought I'd mention it here in case the
> off-list reply doesn't reach you.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Kevin
> http://www.RawFedDogs.net
> http://www.Lassie.xyz
> http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
> Bruceville, TX
>
> What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
> Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
>

Re: RS/6000 7043-140 boot floppies

[Jules Richardson via cctalk]

On 2/18/19 11:49 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote:
The system does boot the AIX install on one of its hard disks, but this is 
a recycled system and I don't have usernames/passwords for that install.


Does anyone here have a suggestion on how to proceed?


If you've got another Unix-a-like (e.g. Linux works fine) machine kicking 
around with SCSI, it's possible to hack up some shell script to 'dd' blocks 
from the AIX machine's drive one by one, looking for stuff that looks like 
part of the password file. Then you can save them, edit them to make the 
data appear like a normal Unix passwd file (IBM being IBM, AIX in those 
days did things a little differently), and run one of the various password 
crackers on the result (e.g. JtR).


That process worked for my 7043-140, anyway. I don't think that the 
filesystem for AIX that old is directly supported on anything, so you can't 
just mount it like I believe you can more modern releases. Of course if you 
have install media, then as someone else mentioned I believe there are ways 
of resetting it that way which are (probably) far easier :-)


cheers

Jules

Re: IBM 3174 C 6.4 Microcode Disks?

[Jim Stefanik via cctalk]

OK, so this thread pushed my to pursue playing with DT/6000.  If anyone has 
documentation on how exactly everything fits together, please let me know...if 
someone miraculously has a copy of DT/6000 in their archive, I could use a copy.


Feel free to ping me off list to keep the noise here down.



---

Jim Stefanik
Dallas Vintage Computing Center

From: Jay Jaeger via cctech 
Sent: Monday, 18 February 2019 15:48
To: cct...@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: IBM 3174 C 6.4 Microcode Disks?

On 2/15/2019 10:22 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: 
> On 2/14/2019 9:28 PM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote: 
>> Classic Computer Fans, 
>> 
>> I posted this to the IBM-Legacy-Hercules mailing list.  I just realized it 
>> probably wouldn't hurt to post it here too. 
>> 
>> I'm finally in possession of a box that hopefully is capable or can be made 
>> capable of connecting a real terminal to Hercules.  It's a 3174 11L.  It was 
>> retired last year where I work.  I finally got the okay to save it from 
>> being sent to a scrapper.  I love the build quality of older IBM gear, 
>> except when I'm trying to move such gear.  Between the 3174 and a 9406-520 I 
>> also acquired, I pulled or strained something in my left arm moving them 
>> into place. 
>> 
>> It's currently wired to run on 220v.  I think I've seen mentioned somewhere 
>> that it can be changed to run on 110v.  If that's the case, does anyone have 
>> a pointer to documentation on what's involved? 
>> 
>> It has dual floppy drives.  At least one drive is a 2.4MB drive.  But, all 
>> the microcode disks I have are at level B 4.6.  Does anyone know where I can 
>> get a set of C 6.4 control and control extension disks.  From what I've 
>> heard those are what's needed to enable an attached terminal to connect to 
>> other systems via telnet. 
>> 
>> It has a token ring card.  I will probably be able to get the MAU it was 
>> connected to, and possibly the router that acted as a token ring to Ethernet 
>> bridge. 
>> 
>> I'm not sure how much memory it has.  Does anyone have any tips on 
>> determining the amount of memory it has, and/or identifying its boards? 
>> These are the numbers on its boards: 
>> 
>> 9210 
>> 9351 
>> 9052 z2 
>> 9053 
>> 9501 
>> 
>> Plus the boards for coax connections. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> I have some 3174 floppy disks, but I don't know what - they are not in 
> my inventory.  I will put it on my queue to look at them - but it may be 
> a couple of weeks.  I don't hold out much hope, but I will look. 
> 

Well, it turns out my floppies are for *3274* rather than 3174.  But, 
that said, if anyone needs any of them, let me know: just shipping cost. 

Here is a sample: 

3274 Disks 
IBM Diskette 2 256 Bytes/Sector 


Date Name 

8/09/83 A13 FEAT DISK CONFIG SUPPORT D REL 60.0 VALIDATION NUMBER 30 
8/10/83 A23 SYST DISK CONFIG SUPPORT D REL 60.0 VALIDATION NUMBER 30 
[Customized] 
8/10/83 A23 SYST DISK CONFIG SUPPORT D REL 60.0 VALIDATION NUMBER 30 
[Customized] 
6/18/84 A22 FEAT DISK CONFIG SUPPORT D REL 63.0 VALIDATION NUMBER 33 
6/30/84 A12 FEAT DISK CONFIG SUPPORT D REL 63.0 VALIDATION NUMBER 33 
6/30/84 A22 SYST DISK CONFIG SUPPORT D REL 63.0 VALIDATION NUMBER 33 
6/30/84 A22 SYST DISK CONFIG SUPPORT D REL 63.0 VALIDATION NUMBER 33 
6/30/84 A22 SYST DISK CONFIG SUPPORT D REL 63.0 VALIDATION NUMBER 33 
7/01/84 A22 LANGUAGE DISKETTE - RELEASE C FOR CONFIG D AT REL 63.0 OR 
HIGHER 
7/01/84 A12 LANGUAGE DISKETTE - RELEASE C FOR CONFIG D AT REL 63.0 OR 
HIGHER 
7/12/84 A23 SYST DISK CONFIG SUPPORT D REL 63.0 VALIDATION NUMBER 33 
7/12/84 A22 SYST DISK CONFIG SUPPORT D REL 63.0 VALIDATION NUMBER 33 
7/18/84 A23 LANGUAGE DISKETTE - RELEASE C FOR CONFIG D AT REL 63.0 OR 
HIGHER 
6/11/85 B22 18.33 LANGUAGE DISKETTE FOR CONFIG D AT REL 64.0 OR HIGHER 
6/11/85 A12 21.30 SYSTEM - CONFIG SUPPORT D REL 64.1 VALIDATION 34 OR 
HIGHER 
6/18/85 A12 19.40 FEATURE - CONFIG SUPPORT D REL 64.1 VALIDATION 34 OR 
HIGHER 
6/24/86 B23 17.17 LANGUAGE DISKETTE FOR CONFIG D AT REL 65.0 OR HIGHER 
6/24/86 B12 17.08 LANGUAGE DISKETTE FOR CONFIG D AT REL 65.0 OR HIGHER 
6/24/86 B12 17.05 LANGUAGE DISKETTE FOR CONFIG D AT REL 65.0 OR HIGHER 

--- KYB DEF UTILILTY REL G FOR LOAD 3290 D41.00, 3179-G D25.00 OR 
HIGHER 


(And about 150 more, in a similar date range) 

Re: RS/6000 7043-140 boot floppies

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

On 2/19/19 1:31 PM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote:

On 2/18/19 11:49 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote:
The system does boot the AIX install on one of its hard disks, but 
this is a recycled system and I don't have usernames/passwords for 
that install.


Does anyone here have a suggestion on how to proceed?


If you've got another Unix-a-like (e.g. Linux works fine) machine 
kicking around with SCSI, it's possible to hack up some shell script 
to 'dd' blocks from the AIX machine's drive one by one, looking for 
stuff that looks like part of the password file. Then you can save 
them, edit them to make the data appear like a normal Unix passwd file 
(IBM being IBM, AIX in those days did things a little differently), 
and run one of the various password crackers on the result (e.g. JtR).


That process worked for my 7043-140, anyway. I don't think that the 
filesystem for AIX that old is directly supported on anything, so you 
can't just mount it like I believe you can more modern releases. Of 
course if you have install media, then as someone else mentioned I 
believe there are ways of resetting it that way which are (probably) 
far easier :-)


Thanks. I am all set now. I got a pointer to AIX 4.3.3 iso images and 
have been able to do a fresh install on the system. I also have a Model 
150 that I need to go through and I think the AIX iso images will work 
for that as well.


I haven't touched AIX in decades, so it did kinda hurt trying to wrap my 
brain around it again.


alan


cheers

Jules

CDC modules

[Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk]

Guys,

I am wanting to determine which CDC (or possibly other) computer some of my
modules came from. If you were a CDC employee around the time of CDC 6xxx
computers, let me know where I could send my photos for identification of
these items.
Many thanks,
peter

|| |  |   || |  |   ||
Peter Van Peborgh
62 St Mary's Rise
Writhlington  Radstock
SomersetBA3 3PD
UK
01761 439 234
|| |  |   || |  |   ||

Re: RS/6000 7043-140 boot floppies

[Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk]

Alan Perry via cctech wrote:
The system does boot the AIX install on one of its hard disks, but 
this is a recycled system and I don't have usernames/passwords for 
that install.


Does anyone here have a suggestion on how to proceed?

alan
Last year I started working on a 7012-320H that I've had for some time; 
it would not boot AIX, but it would stall during boot up before bringing 
up the console. People in this list and elsewhere made many useful 
suggestions. I made  the proper serial cabling, no console.  Finally, I 
was able to boot in system maintenance mode from boot AIX 3.2.5 
diskettes that  I found on the net, and got a console.  I then 
discovered that the hard drive had 3.1.005 in it; still, managed to 
replace the /etc/security/passwd file (using just cat  and cp, there's 
no ls or ed in the maintenance shell) with a version that had the root 
password removed.  The system booted now, except that it would not mount 
/usr, because there wasn't an /etc/mount binary. After examining an 
image of the hard drive, I noticed that the binary for /etc/unmount had 
error messages for mounting operations, had this hunch that /etc/mount 
was the same binary as /etc/unmount, copied the latter to the former, 
and voila, I had a booting system.  You should be able to do the same if 
you can boot from a CD.


Since then I added a second hard drive (the original was just 400mb), 
and I have been trying to build a toolchain and numeric processing 
programs.  I was able to build gcc-2.7.2 after building an early gmake 
with the system's cc even though the assembler
in 3.1.005 has a known bug, then I built binutils-2.9.1 (the last 
version that will build ld on AIX 3.1.005), and then I succesfully built 
gcc-2.95.3 configured to use binutils and not the system's ld and as.  
The last version of gcc supported on 3.1.005 is 3.3.6, but the build 
process fails early on at the dreaded gengtype stage with the usual 
"running out of memory" error (this is something that also happens under 
SunOS 4.1.4; my IPXs are at 2.95.3 too).


So, I'm stuck at 2.95.3, but I've managed to build at least some things 
with it; right now I have: autoconf-2.59, bash-2.05b, binutils-2.9.1, 
bison-1.50, bpmpd-2.30, bvi-1.3.2, bzip2-1.0.2, fftw-3.3.7, flex-2.5.4, 
glpk-4.45, glpk-4.65, gawk-3.0.4, gmp-4.2.4, gnuplot-4.4.4, gperf-2.7.2, 
groff-1.10, gsl-2.1, gzip-1.3.12, jpeg-8d, lapack-3.1.1, libgd-2.0.33, 
libpng-1.4.22, m4-1.4.1, make-3.81, mpfr-3.1.6, ncurses-5.2, 
patch-2.5.9, pcre-6.7, perl-5.6.2, qhull-2009, qrupdate-1.1.2, 
readline-4.2, rx-1.5, screen-4.0.3, sed-3.0.2, texinfo-4.0, tiff-3.9.7, 
vim-5.8, zlib-1.2.3. I had to modify the source in most of them.  I have 
built a python-2.2.3 executable but right now it fails when importing 
modules, and I have been trying to build several versions of octave 
without success.  Most issues have to do with ancient system libs, 
ancient c++ grammar in gcc-2.95.3, a nonstandard dynamic loading 
mechanism, lack of UNIX98 features, and general senescence in this 
system.  But I like it anyway.  I wish I had a network card.  Sometime 
in the future I will configure a SLIP server with an old linux box or a 
raspberry and try to network the thing.


carlos.

Re: RS/6000 7043-140 boot floppies

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

Thanks.

It has been reported that Solaris 2.5.1 does work with the 604e, which the 
7043-140 has, so I will be looking for another box to run 2.5.1 PPC on.

I worked for Sun on Solaris back when the PPC port was done (and work for 
Oracle now on Solaris). I asked among Solaris folks (current and former) about 
PPC compilers and “possibly gcc 2.95 otherwise cross compiling” was suggested.

alan 


> On Feb 19, 2019, at 3:09 AM, Rico Pajarola  wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 6:49 PM Alan Perry via cctech 
>>  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Is there some trick to making boot floppies for the RS/6000 7043-140 (a 
>> mid-90s PReP architecture machine)?
>> 
>> I initially tried to install Solaris 2.5.1 on it and created the boot 
> #wrong43p
> 
> Solaris 2.5.1 PPC doesn't work on that machine.
> 
> I can't find the HCL doc, but according to the files present on the CD it 
> runs on:
> 
> IBM 6040 (ThinkPad 820)
> IBM 6042 (ThinkPad 850)
> IBM 6015 (PowerSeries 440, 7020-40P)
> IBM 6050 (PowerSeries 830, 7248-43P)
> IBM 6070 (PowerSeries 850, 7248-43P)
> IBM 7248 (43P-100, 43P-120, 43P-132)
> Motorola PowerStack Series DT/E/MT
> 
> The 7248-43P is substantially different from a 7043-140 "43P". I have it 
> running on a PowerStack Series E.
> 
> Did anyone ever unearth the Sun compiler for that?
> 
> 
>> floppy by dd'ing the image using a SPARCstation (running NetBSD). I 
>> dd'ed the image over, dd'ed it back and verified the SPARCstation could 
>> read back what it had written to the floppy. The RS/6000 loads what is 
>> on the floppy, but hangs transferring control to what it loaded.
>> 
>> The 7043-140 does not appear on the list of supported systems in the 
>> Solaris 2.5.1 release notes, so, even though 2.5.1 supports PReP and the 
>> 7043-140 is a PReP machine, maybe they aren't compatible, so I tried 
>> NetBSD. The 7043-140 is listed as a supported system.
>> 
>> The NetBSD boot floppy images are confusing to me. The files are too 
>> large to fit on a 1.44M floppy. I didn't see instructions on how to make 
>> boot floppies out of the .fs files one can download in the install 
>> instructions. I went ahead and tried to dd the part that fits onto a 
>> 1.44M floppy and try to boot that and of course that failed. I have 
>> e-mailed the NetBSD prep mailing list and no response from that.
>> 
>> The system does boot the AIX install on one of its hard disks, but this 
>> is a recycled system and I don't have usernames/passwords for that install.
>> 
>> Does anyone here have a suggestion on how to proceed?
>> 
>> alan
>> 

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 1:20 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> I have a CQD=220A/MT configured for 6 disks and one tape.
> As for disk types, you can toggle RA ON or OFF on each drive.
> You can specify one RA type that will be in effect for any
> disk with RA ON.  Types are: RA70, RA80, RA81, RA82, RA90 and RA92.

Looking at this further, I don't believe the CMD CQD RA type option
does what you think it does. I don't believe it has any effect on the
reported geometry of the MSCP unit, I believe it only changes the
reported type name of the MSCP unit.

I need to change the firmware on one of my CMD CQD controllers to a
version of the firmware which has both the RA type specification
option and RA type toggle per unit option to verify the actual
behavior myself.

I tried firmware version REV. B3A-00 on a CQD-220/TM which has an "A =
Report specific media type" option, but not a "1 = Toggle device RA"
option. With that firmware specifying an particular RA type had no
effect on the reported unit geometry.

I have firmware version REV. B2L-00 I can try on a CQD-420/TM which
has both "A = Set the RA number" and "1 = Toggle device RA" options. I
currently have firmware version REV. B2C-00 on my CQD-420/TM which has
neither of those two option.

Regardless of that, there are a couple of options you can try:
(1) Find out the exact unit size that is being reported in your
configuration with your CMD controller and hard drive, and configure
the emulated hard drive unit size to match that.
-or-
(2) Reconfigure the SCSI hard drive independent of the CMD controller
to match the exact unit size of the emulated hard drive. Then use the
SCSI hard drive as a single unit without partitions on the CMD
controller and it should yield the desired result. To reconfigure the
SCSI hard drive you can use sg_format from the sg3_utils to soft
resize the reported capacity of a SCSI hard drive down to a lower
limit. I have done that several times, for example to resize a 9GB
drive down to 1GB in capacity for systems while can't handle drives
larger than 1GB. The sg_format command with the -resize option doesn't
actually format the drive, it just uses some mode page commands to
change the reported drive capacity.

Re: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

With all deference to the real collectors, I don't see the objective here.

The thing should be NEC 765 compatible?  Why?  What about non-NEC-based
sytems (e.g. the bulk of CP/M and countless other systems that don't use
an LSI controller)?  Or those systems that permanently already have a
controller installed?  And you know--not all systems used disks with
standard-length (i.e. power of 2) sectors. (e.g. Zilog MCZ) or oddball
addressing schemes?   How about those old Apple II floppy protection
that manipulated the positioner current to land the head *between* tracks?

And other than *reading* the things once, why are we trying to fool with
decaying doughnuts of rusty dust?

Sample the rusty rings, stash the data away for use by analysis.  If
amenable to emulation, write a floppy *drive* emulator to match.
Otherwise, you've got the data.

My take on this subject only--but then, I'm mostly concerned about
*reading* dusty rust and preserving the information for future
reference, not recreating the original scenario.

A NEC 765 is pretty limited in what it can do, in the firmament of
floppy formats--I don't even know how to tell it to deal with, say,
132-byte sectors.

Thanks for allowing me to spout my nonsense.

--Chuck

Re: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

I would like to see software for . . .
THEN, I would like to see that software as . . .
THEN, I would like to see that . . .



On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, alan--- via cctalk wrote:

What's stopping you from writing it?


It's in the queue!
Which is longer than my expected remaining lifespan.
There are several aspects that I need to learn a lot more about.
Alas, a few other things have greater urgency/priority, than completing 
what XenoCopy coulda/shoulda/woulda been.

Re: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[alan--- via cctalk]

On 2019-02-19 19:42, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Ali wrote:

Are we being a little sarcastic or serious? :)


A lot of BOTH

I would like to see software for flux transition hardware that would
extract sectors.
THEN, I would like to see that software as a subroutine, with an
interface similar to INT13h.
THEN, I would like to see that ROMable, either on a physical ROM, or
loaded into RAM, with the INT13h vestor repointed to it.


What's stopping you from writing it?

-Alan

Re: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[alan--- via cctalk]

Doesn't SuperCard Pro already do this?  The hardware isn't open source, 
but the USB control protocol to read and write flux transitions on an 
entire track is open and well documented.  And there are already several 
tools to exercise the protocol.  Sure, one could replicate the hardware 
work for kicks, but that isn't the real heavy lift.  Advanced tools for 
manipulating the flux images for low level encoding, high level format, 
and file system is the prize.  The Amiga ADF disk tools project is a 
really good start... (supports dozens of formats beyond Amiga).


-Alan

On 2019-02-19 17:31, dwight via cctalk wrote:

Actually, I'd like to see it just read/write flux changes +  index
marks onto a SD card for later analysis. Building all the smarts into
the controller means that some formats will get missed. One can later
write translation code for what ever format one has. Make this
information open source, much of it is already in bits and pieces.
Make sure it can read and buffer an entire track of data in RAM (
Gotek can't ).
We no longer need proprietary hardware. There are a number of off the
shelf controller boards capable of handing this. It would only need
cables to match the drive.
Dwight

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

[Charles Anthony via cctalk]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 10:14 AM Paul Koning  wrote:

>
>
> > On Feb 19, 2019, at 11:51 AM, Charles Anthony <
> charles.unix@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > ...
> > Presumably SIMH is returning RA81_LBN (891072) as the device size; this
> is calculated based on the 51 sectors/track. If the h/w is returning a size
> based on 52, then there is a mismatch which could be the source of the
> problem. It has been hypothesised that the original problem is related to
> SIMH misreporting the disk size; I was trying to point out a possible
> source of error; does anyone know what size the h/w reports?
> >
> > -- Charles
>
> Some people here probably have an actual drive and can double check.
>
> Meanwhile, I found the "RA60, RA80, and RA81 disk drives" brochure (DEC,
> August 1982) on Archive.org.  It has the details in the back.  Page 36
> shows "User data capacity" and says 51 sectors, 14 tracks, 1248 cylinders
> -- that works out to 891072 sectors which is the number SIMH uses.
>
> So indeed the correct sector count is 51 (the other one is a spare, a
> technique used by DEC as far back as the RM80).
>
>
I am concerned that the spare is the issue. If the track has 52 sectors,
and one is reserved as a spare, is that spare included in the LBA
calculation? If it is, then SIMH is wrong; the first sector of the second
track written in the spare sector, throwing all of the remaining data out
of alignment, with the symptom of RSTS booting but not being able to find
INIT.SYS.

If the spare sector exists and SIMH is not allocation space for it, then
the disk image will not copy correctly with 'dd'. (However, dd might be
coereced into doing the right thing with 'dd if=... of=... ibs=26112
obs=26624'; reading 512*51 byte records (a SIMH track) and writing 512*52
byte records (a RA81 h/w track)).

-- Charles

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:

I think it's useful to have one or two for exhibits of old modems and
period systems that would have used a phone coupler.  For that reason, a
nice 1965 model would be good to have


Well, you do need a classic handset for any acoustic coupler.
Although W.E. "Celebrity" novelty handset will work.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/233136060428

> >  I have a fondness for old rotary dial phones, especially ones like 
> > they used in movies and TV shows set in the '40s and '50s.  I've 
> > never managed to acquire one.  I'd love to have a few of them, but 
> > not that many.  :-)

> go  to  garage  sales   '
> thy  turn up there.


There are a few on eBay.

RE: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Ali wrote:
That would make for a very powerful tool but as you pointed out yourself 
how many users would learn to use it? Unless it is a simple driver that 
gets loaded and the user has to simply put in a couple of generic 
parameters, e.g. "device=c:\drives\emudsk.sys APPLE", and it is up and 
running most users won't be able to make use of it.


By the time that I got out (for other reasons), XenoCopy had not been 
profitable for a while.  THAT handled files, but the user still had to 
deal in other ways with modifications that they needed to the content of 
the files.  Sure, a Wordstar file could be made into a generic text file 
by stripping the high bit.  But converting WordPervert format codes into 
Weird format codes would have required another career.





> My preference would be REAL MODE (DOS).
As would mine but would a 286 be able to do it? And if you have a 
machine that runs real mode DOS why not make use of the HW that is 
there?
For your 286 machine(s) wouldn't you like a combination of Compaticard, 
CatFerret, and option board, to use instead of the existing FDC board?


If this were USB, then it could add floppy back onto some more "modern" 
machines.  If USB, with appropriate "modern" drivers, no reason why this 
couldn't be used for MOST machines.


> Match Point could be implemented in software on the Central Point 
> board.
Great. Then if the DOB HW is duplicated then that part can be SW 
and no need to have Match Point HW duplicated. I am surprised the Copy 
II PC DOB card did not handle Apple II disks along with Mac 
disks.
It could have.  But Brown? (not sure whether I remember his name right) 
correctly realized that he could make money doing Mac, but there wasn't 
enough additional money with Apple2 to even necessarily reimburse him to 
hire those programmers.


> CompatiCard was just an ordinary FDC, without the crippling corners 
> cut.
True, but if you are building the ultimate FDC then you don't want 
crippling corners cut. So something functionally equivalent.
Exactly.  But, I want to make it clear that there is nothing SPECIAL about 
Compaticard; it's simply one of the best, but not unique.


> SO, you are asking for FDC plus flux transition, but better 
> integrated, rather than flux transition hardware interrupting the 
> drive cable.


By the time DOB came out, 286 normally had FDC combined with HDD, so my 
suggestion to integrate FDC with OB wasn't applicable.


Yes! All on one card. Throw in FDADAP functionality to properly write 8" 
disks and you have a controller that handles most if not all IBM, Apple 
II, and Mac disks.
FDADAP is a cabling adapter, plus generating the TG43 signal, which would 
be trivial to do with a conventional FDC.  For READING (I hardly never 
WROTE), I cabled my 8 inch drives to 34 pin.


As I understand it, in my limited way, having both FM 
and MFM should allow for many CP/M formats including SD.


Yes.  FM adds 8" SSSD "Standard", TRS80 model 1 (although still problems 
writing some address marks), and a handful of others.



Will some formats be left out? Sure.


GCR, hard sector, etc.
My (and I think Chuck's) favorite example for weird is Sirius/Victor 9000.
(80 track GCR, although with its own versions of CP/M-86 and MS-DOS!)

Will it be as powerful as a Kyro 
Flux for archiving? Heck no.


But will it let me pop in my original 123 

disk and copy it for use with out too much hassle and work? Of



course.?



There are a few exceptions, such as Pro-lock.Well then you had
the ENHANCED Deluxe Board. :)
Not necessarily.  MANY versions of Pro-lock used the same identical check 
code, so one "crack" beat a lot of them.  But some of the better ones 
rewrote their own subroutine.


Pro-Lock relied on a physical defect on the disk.  Both in terms of 
getting an read error trying to read that track, but sometimes even 
confirming that WRITING to that track also failed.
They called it a "laser fingerprint", because "a sweatshop where they 
scratch disks with a paperclip" doesn't sound as impressive.
Similarly, my Prius has a "LASER CUT key".  Yeah. Right.  The one that I'm 
using right now was cut with a tiny side-mill bit and a pantograph.



> But, in quite a few cases, people have disassembled (now illegal under 
> >DMCA!), found the vulnerabilities and

>simply disabled the copy protection.?


Yes but that is harder and harder to find. They were never public but 
each city had multiple BBSes offering such altered programs. And of 
course the other problems w/ this method is you are confined to the one 
altered version?? (even if you own a later version). Also there is no 
guarantee the alterations will not cause a bug that will crop up later 
due to a lack of total testing.


I removed the copy-protection from my [legitimate] copy of 123.  So that I 
could install it onto machines with different drives.

Sorry, I don't remember where the patch is.

But, is it really that hard to find the patches for the major programs?

Re: tracometer model 6a

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 02/19/2019 02:23 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:

anyone ever herd of one? mines searial number 002
says national research councle of canada made by eda electronics

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5723/Bnz2VF.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6783/nHesKB.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5776/wimiv2.jpg

I'd guess it is a multichannel data logger that writes the 
data onto cassettes.


Jon

A History of Engineering & Science in the Bell System TRANSMISSION TECHNOLOGY and ELECTRONICS TECHNOLOGY

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

A History of Engineering & Science in the Bell System TRANSMISSION TECHNOLOGY 
and ELECTRONICS TECHNOLOGY
A History of Engineering & Science in the Bell System TRANSMISSION TECHNOLOGY 

and A History of Engineering & Science in the Bell System ELECTRONICS 
TECHNOLOGY  ( the  transistor  and devices  etc...)
60 for the  Pair  plus  16.95  priority  mailing  insured  tracked and  
signature  confirmation  payment to be  made  via  pay  pal  friends and  
family...only  after  we  ok  who  gets them .
both   tight  beauty  copies  with   great  jackets on them!
Let me   know  asap   if  you  want.
extra  copies  help re-roof museum buildings!Thanks  Ed#

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

I think it's useful to have one or two for exhibits of old modems and
period systems that would have used a phone coupler.  For that reason, a
nice 1965 model would be good to have

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 8:46 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk 
wrote:

> go  to  garage  sales   '
> thy  turn up there.
> In a message dated 2/19/2019 1:57:35 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
> cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 09:58:00AM -0600, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
>
> > Old tech, but not computers:
>
> I have a fondness for old rotary dial phones, especially ones like they
> used
> in movies and TV shows set in the '40s and '50s.  I've never managed to
> acquire one.  I'd love to have a few of them, but not that many.  :-)
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Kevin
> http://www.RawFedDogs.net
> http://www.Lassie.xyz
> http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
> Bruceville, TX
>
> What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
> Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
>

RE: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Ali via cctalk]

Fred,> Are we being a little sarcastic or serious? >:)>>A lot of BOTHJust 
making sure. ;)>I would like to see software for flux >transition hardware that 
would >extract sectors.>THEN, I would like to see that software as >a 
>subroutine, with an interface similar to >INT13h.>THEN, I would like to see 
that ROMable, >either on a physical ROM, or >loaded into RAM, with the INT13h 
vestor >repointed to it.That would make for a very powerful tool but as you 
pointed out yourself how many users would learn to use it? Unless it is a 
simple driver that gets loaded and the user has to simply put in a couple of 
generic parameters, e.g. "device=c:\drives\emudsk.sys APPLE", and it is up and 
running most users won't be able to make use of it.>My preference would be REAL 
MODE (DOS).As would mine but would a 286 be able to do it? And if you have a 
machine that runs real mode DOS why not make use of the HW that is there?>Match 
Point could be implemented in >software on the Central Point board.Great. Then 
if the DOB HW is duplicated then that part can be SW and no need to have Match 
Point HW duplicated. I am surprised the Copy II PC DOB card did not handle 
Apple II disks along with Mac disks. >CompatiCard was just an ordinary FDC, 
>without the crippling corners cut.True, but if you are building the ultimate 
FDC then you don't want crippling corners cut. So something functionally 
equivalent.>SO, you are asking for FDC plus flux >transition, but better 
integrated, >rather than flux transition hardware >interrupting the drive 
cable.Yes! All on one card. Throw in FDADAP functionality to properly write 8" 
disks and you have a controller that handles most if not all IBM, Apple II, and 
Mac disks. As I understand it, in my limited way, having both FM and MFM should 
allow for many CP/M formats including SD. Will some formats be left out? Sure. 
Will it be as powerful as a Kyro Flux for archiving? Heck no. But will it let 
me pop in my original 123 disk and copy it for use with out too much hassle and 
work? Of course. >There are a few exceptions, such as Pro-lock.Well then you 
had the ENHANCED Deluxe Board. :)>But, in quite a few cases, people have 
>disassembled (now illegal under >DMCA!), found the vulnerabilities and >simply 
disabled the copy protection. Yes but that is harder and harder to find. They 
were never public but each city had multiple BBSes offering such altered 
programs. And of course the other problems w/ this method is you are confined 
to the one altered version  (even if you own a later version). Also there is no 
guarantee the alterations will not cause a bug that will crop up later due to a 
lack of total testing.-Ali

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

go  to  garage  sales   '
thy  turn up there.
In a message dated 2/19/2019 1:57:35 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:
On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 09:58:00AM -0600, John Foust via cctalk wrote:

> Old tech, but not computers:

I have a fondness for old rotary dial phones, especially ones like they used
in movies and TV shows set in the '40s and '50s.  I've never managed to
acquire one.  I'd love to have a few of them, but not that many.  :-)




-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

Re: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Paul Koning wrote:
I' reminded of the Bordynuik tape reading machine that uses an MR head. 
Capturing analog flux levels at, say, 10x the nominal flux change 
density means all the rest is simply digital signal processing.  That 
can be done in real time if you must, but much more easily in post 
processing using whatever tools and languages you like.


As Al pointed out, at least an initial stage of analysis should be done 
real-time, or close to that, to determine whether the read seemed to have 
been successful.  'Course, that doesn't preclude later stages from 
also requesting a new attempt, if the data doesn't look good on further 
analysis.


And, of course,  using multiple machines, or just multiple processes, one 
system could begin processing, while another is reading more tracks.
The reliability encountered would determine how much testing should be 
done before moving on, either to the next track?  or the next disk?
If errors are RARE, then there would be no cause to hesitate and hand off 
processing while moving on to the next JOB.
If errors are FREQUENT (Al, Chuck, and I dealt with some that required 
dozens of attempts to get a successful read of a track), then that would 
caall for MORE processing before stepping to the next track or disk.


FDC does a CRC "real time", and compares that with the value stored in the 
sector header.

Re: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Feb 19, 2019, at 8:00 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> As I see it, flux transition hardware COULD be all that is needed for 
>> hardware.  Emulation of FDC could be done in software with flux transition 
>> hardware.
> 
> That should read flux transition plus appropriate control signals for the 
> drive.  Seeking tracks, turn on the drives R/W circuitry, etc.
> Flux transition ITSELF is just making sense out of the pulses on the track.

Rather than flux transitions, flux levels would seem even better.  If the flux 
levels are sliced and reduced to square waves, you've lost a bunch of 
information that could have helped recover marginal data.

I' reminded of the Bordynuik tape reading machine that uses an MR head.  
Capturing analog flux levels at, say, 10x the nominal flux change density means 
all the rest is simply digital signal processing.  That can be done in real 
time if you must, but much more easily in post processing using whatever tools 
and languages you like.

paul

Re: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
As I see it, flux transition hardware COULD be all that is needed for 
hardware.  Emulation of FDC could be done in software with flux 
transition hardware.


That should read flux transition plus appropriate control signals for the 
drive.  Seeking tracks, turn on the drives R/W circuitry, etc.
Flux transition ITSELF is just making sense out of the pulses on the 
track.

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Grant Taylor

> I do know that there are a lot of companies here in the US that are
> filtering their website like this.

It does go both ways; a while back, a vintage rail site I read regularly
('Weekend Rails') moved to a new hosting service, and that service filtered
out and refused attempts from the US to read any of the sites they hosted (it
wasn't at the site owner's request; I asked). So I had to use a European-based
proxy for a while to get to it.

Noel

Re: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

A design that can manage Ohio Scientific as well would be nice.


On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Might as well add Victor 9000...


It was in my original list :-)

RE: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Ali wrote:

Are we being a little sarcastic or serious? :)


A lot of BOTH

I would like to see software for flux transition hardware that would 
extract sectors.
THEN, I would like to see that software as a 
subroutine, with an interface similar to INT13h.
THEN, I would like to see that ROMable, either on a physical ROM, or 
loaded into RAM, with the INT13h vestor repointed to it.


Honestly, a sw implementation would be interesting but would it work on 
vintage hw? Or are you suggesting for use only with a modern 
system?


My preference would be REAL MODE (DOS).
But, for marketability, it would have to be WIN11


For example here is my dilemma: my stinkers, whom you have met, 
are getting old enough to want to mess with my stuff. *shudder* i mean 
cool! but I really don't want them ruining my one actual original disk 
for any programs I own. So what I do is make backup copies just like in 
the old days. And before someone suggests emulators, it is just not the 
same. I mean if we wanted to emulate everything why bother even 
preserving hardware?Problem is when we have copy protection, as many 
games or old SW do, then you need a Copy II PC board. I have one and 
they are fairly common but ridiculously expensive now a days. So it 
would be nice if the functions could be duplicated in an easy to use 
manner. Kyro Flux is powerful but not for everyone. I want an FDC that 
would cover 90% of the vintage hobby (i.e. Apple II, Mac, and IBM). An 
FDC that combines a CompatiCard IV with a copy ii pc deluxe and a Match 
Point card would cover all of the above plus then some.Just a 
thought ;D


Match Point could be implemented in software on the Central Point board.
I discussed Mac disks with Brown of Central Point, and told him that I 
didn't think that the regular option board could handle an adequate range 
of data transfer rates.  Hence, he came out with the Deluxe, including 
some Macintosh disk software.


CompatiCard was just an ordinary FDC, without the crippling corners cut.
There were a few others that could do comparable things.

SO, you are asking for FDC plus flux transition, but better integrated, 
rather than flux transition hardware interrupting the drive cable.



A lot of copy protected software can be duplicated using flux transition. 
That was Centraal Point's target market for the Option Board.

There are a few exceptions, such as Pro-lock.
But, in quite a few cases, people have disassembled (now illegal under 
DMCA!), found the vulnerabilities and simply disabled the copy protection. 
Often, it is as simple as replacing a conditional JMP with an 
unconditional JMP or a NOP.  The trick is knowing WHERE :-)

Such "unlocked" programs are what you ideally want.

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Feb 19, 2019, at 7:31 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> At 01:11 PM 19/02/2019 -0800, you wrote:
 Old tech, but not computers:
 https://madison.com/business/galesville-antique-phone-dealers-looking-to-offload-vast-collection/article_b1845009-c861-50ff-82c8-60a15866fc6d.html
>> 
>> On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:
>>> 451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
>>> We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
>> 
>> We must prevent advanced rotary dial technology from falling into the 
>> wrong hands!
> 
> 
> Amusing, but that isn't anything close to what it's about.
> 
>> 451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
>> We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country 
>> belonging
>> to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the 
>> General
>> Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at
>> this time. For any issues, contact hostmas...@madison.com or call 
>> 800-362-8333.
> 
> The EU's GDPR is supposed to be about 'protecting personal data privacy', but 
> seems
> more like another Globalist attempt to cripple the Internet by imposing 
> unreasonable
> and near-impossible to comply with regulations.
> 
> Guy

This and many other examples of Internet censorship can be avoided by using TOR 
-- which is a nice browser for any number of other reasons too.

paul

Re: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 2/19/19 3:40 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote:
> A design that can manage Ohio Scientific as well would be nice.

Might as well add Victor 9000...

--Chuck

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[Guy Dunphy via cctalk]

At 01:11 PM 19/02/2019 -0800, you wrote:
>>> Old tech, but not computers:
>>> https://madison.com/business/galesville-antique-phone-dealers-looking-to-offload-vast-collection/article_b1845009-c861-50ff-82c8-60a15866fc6d.html
>
>On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:
>> 451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
>> We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
>
>We must prevent advanced rotary dial technology from falling into the 
>wrong hands!


Amusing, but that isn't anything close to what it's about.

>451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
>We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging
>to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General
>Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at
>this time. For any issues, contact hostmas...@madison.com or call 800-362-8333.

The EU's GDPR is supposed to be about 'protecting personal data privacy', but 
seems
more like another Globalist attempt to cripple the Internet by imposing 
unreasonable
and near-impossible to comply with regulations.

Guy

Re: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, dwight wrote:
Actually, I'd like to see it just read/write flux changes + index marks 
onto a SD card for later analysis. Building all the smarts into the 
controller means that some formats will get missed. One can later write 
translation code for what ever format one has. Make this information 
open source, much of it is already in bits and pieces. Make sure it can 
read and buffer an entire track of data in RAM ( Gotek can't ).


As I see it, flux transition hardware COULD be all that is needed for 
hardware.  Emulation of FDC could be done in software with flux transition 
hardware.


First stage would be with minimal software, to save the track flux 
transitions in a file.


Next stage, If and when a 765 FDC can be emulated.
THEN, make the FDC emulation code loadable into RAM, and repoint the 
Int13h vector to it. (TSR)
THEN, make new version that adds TRACK-READ (ala WD, NOT the multi-sector 
read in the 765)
Then fine details, such as whether or not to implement (switchable) index 
pulse "flash blindness", inability to handle 128 byte sectors, etc.

OR, that much could be done without full flux transition functions.


But, if you DO retain full access to the flux transition data, 
THEN, add GCR decoding, and add that into the FDC emulation (so that 
Int13h/fn2 could read GCR sectors, etc.)

THEN, add hard sector handling


THEN create IFS (Installable File System), which is totally not connected 
with any of this, except when needed for non 765 compatible physical 
formats. That is what XenoCopy would have eventually become, IFF I were to 
have been able to continue.
(Uniform did implement most of an installable file system for CP/M 
formats)


The end-user wants to load their Epson QX-10 documents and Kaypro CP/M 
documents into Word.  They don't want to know how it is done, nor go 
through the essential steps of reading alien sectors, processing alien 
file system to select appropriate sectors, AND convert word processor 
formatting codes from one word processor to another.  Do you think that 
you could teach them how?  XenoCopy transferred FILES; but left the 
content alone.  So, YES, I did get people telling me that XenoCopy had 
"trashed the last letter of every word in the Wordstar files"
I drew the line between transferring files V modification of the content 
of the files.  You are drawing the line between flux transition data V 
sectors/file system/files/content


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 2/19/19 2:31 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> Actually, I'd like to see it just read/write flux changes +  index marks onto 
> a SD card for later analysis.

You want to do the analysis at the time of capture, in case you need to re-read 
the media, or wiggle the head
to try to push off a bit of gunk, or micro step it for off-track errors.

ie. you need to know if what you capture is meaningful.

Re: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Ability to read MFM data with FM headers (RX50)


On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

It's not that simple.  There's the matter of "DEC MFM" which encodes a
few bit patterns differently to avoid collision with FM headers.


Which is presumably a matter of appropriate code for analysis of the raw 
flux transition data.

RE: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Ali via cctalk]

> Actually, I'd like to see it just read/write flux changes +  index
> marks onto a SD card for later analysis

...

> We no longer need proprietary hardware.

Well some of us might not and then there is the rest of us who just need a
tool that kind of works. 

I guess the question is "who is your audience"? If your audience is the
general vintage hobbyist (i.e. someone who used IBM or Apples 20 years ago
and wants to mess with the same equipment) then they are not developing
their own HW, cables, or writing ASM routines (BTW I count myself in this
group). 

Don't get me wrong I would love to be able to do so but realistically I will
never have the raw knowledgebase and the experience required to do something
like that. For someone like me I need a tool that works with some fuss i.e.
it is not polished and needs tweaking, handholding, and prayer to work but
does not need me to also learn Sumerian or assembler (same difference ;) to
make a backup copy of a disk. That maybe asking too much though given that
this is a hobby

RE: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[William Sudbrink via cctalk]

A design that can manage Ohio Scientific as well would be nice.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 02/19/2019 01:17 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote:

I'd be very interested in how that would be possible.


I don't know.

But I do know that there are a lot of companies here in the US that are 
filtering their website like this.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

RE: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Ali via cctalk]

Fred,

Are we being a little sarcastic or serious? :)Honestly, a sw implementation 
would be interesting but would it work on vintage hw? Or are you suggesting for 
use only with a modern system? For example here is my dilemma: my stinkers, 
whom you have met, are getting old enough to want to mess with my stuff. 
*shudder* i mean cool! but I really don't want them ruining my one actual 
original disk for any programs I own. So what I do is make backup copies just 
like in the old days. And before someone suggests emulators, it is just not the 
same. I mean if we wanted to emulate everything why bother even preserving 
hardware?Problem is when we have copy protection, as many games or old SW do, 
then you need a Copy II PC board. I have one and they are fairly common but 
ridiculously expensive now a days. So it would be nice if the functions could 
be duplicated in an easy to use manner. Kyro Flux is powerful but not for 
everyone. I want an FDC that would cover 90% of the vintage hobby (i.e. Apple 
II, Mac, and IBM). An FDC that combines a CompatiCard IV with a copy ii pc 
deluxe and a Match Point card would cover all of the above plus then some.Just 
a thought ;D

Re: Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 2/19/19 2:02 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Ability to read MFM data with FM headers (RX50)

It's not that simple.  There's the matter of "DEC MFM" which encodes a
few bit patterns differently to avoid collision with FM headers.

--Chuck

Ultimate FDC? (Was: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

I'm planning on a USB controller, but I've seen ISA projects that are 
also microcontroller based so I think it wouldn't be awfully difficult 
to replace the USB data pipe with an ISA one.


On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Ali via cctalk wrote:
Well just because you don't have enough to do please plan on an ISA 
version as well ;) I think it really is time someone did a super floppy 
controller bringing together a number of older technology on to one easy 
to use card (e.g. 8" drive support, copy protection bypass, GCR reading) 
- all of this was available as separate products in the past...


What I would like to see, coming at it from a high level software 
viewpoint, would be:
Complete and accurate emulation of 765.  Including ROM or being loadable 
into RAM (TSR) and repoint the Int13h vector.  That would permit it to 
fully replace the stock 765.
Include a switchable "quirks" mode for full compatability with 765 
"features", such as "flash blindness" after index pulse, switchable 
inability to handle 128 byte sectors, etc.


8" and FM and 128 byte sector support (obviously)
125kbps (5.25" FM), 250Kbps, 500Kbps, 1000Kbps (2.8M)

Ability to read MFM data with FM headers (RX50)

Added commands accessible through the [replacement] Int13h:
	Track read, modeled after the WD track read  (that could also 
provide access to Amiga, with additional code for sectors and filesystem)
	RAW track read (flux transition), with and without data/clock 
synchronization.   Hard sector, GCR, copy protection cloning, etc. could 
be handled by other code that calls that function in the [replacement] 
Int13h.



Optionally:
drivers for "modern" OS,
inverted data reversal,
EBCDIC/ASCII conversion
Installable File System (IFS) to permit mounting alien disks, including:
Apple2
ProDos/SOS
Apple CP/M
Apple P-System
Mac 400K/800K
Commodore
Sirius/Victor 9000
CP/M (partial list available at http://www.xenosoft.com/fmts.html)
P-System
Amiga
Northstar N-DOS
TRS-DOS and derivatives (list available on request)
Coco-DOS
Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC (NEC, Oki, etc.)
Unix/Linux file systems
If it also does HDDs, . . .



My friends think it's silly, and they're probably right. =P



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Free: 2x DEC Alpha workstations - 164LX and XP1000

[Kevin Monceaux via cctalk]

Arun,

On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:26:41AM -0600, K. Arun via cctalk wrote:
 
> I have a couple of Alpha workstations that were last used 5-6 years ago
> with some version of Tru64 on them. They haven't been turned on since, and
> may need some work to get running again. They're free to anyone who thinks
> they can use them, and can pick them up from the 78722 zip code (near UT
> Austin).  Please contact me off-list to co-ordinate pickup.

I sent you an off-list reply, but thought I'd mention it here in case the
off-list reply doesn't reach you.



-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 11:22 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> > I have mostly used CMD CQD-220/TM controllers. As far as I remember
> > they do not have an RA drive emulation option.
>
> I have a 220A/TM and it certainly does.  Pages 4-10 thru 4-15
> of the manual, particularly Configuration Options "A" and "1".

> Not familiar with the 220A/E it's not mentioned in my manual.
> Probably a much newer version.

What version of the CQD-220A manual do you have? Do you only have a
hard copy, or do you have a scan of the manual? If you have a scan of
the manual it would be great to get a copy of it. Currently there
isn't any version of a CQD-220A manual on Bitsavers. I have a scan of
the MAN-00220A-000, Rev. 1.1, December 17, 1993 version of the
CQD-220A/223A manual. The RA drive emulation option must be newer than
1993 as I don't see it in the version of the manual I have.

Also, there are two main versions of the CQD-220, the original
CQD-220, and the newer redesigned CQD-220A version. The 'A' suffix is
an important difference. Each main version has minor versions, which
are are PAL and firmware differences.

The original CQD-220 has 220/M (MSCP only), 220/T (TMSCP only), and
220/TM (both MSCP and TMSCP at the same time) versions. The 220/M and
220/T versions can be converted into a 220/TM version by replacing the
CSR decode PAL and the firmware EPROMs. I know this can be done
because I have done it several times myself. This original version is
all through hole, except for the 53C90A SCSI controller in a PLCC
package. The firmware is contained in two 27C256 EPROMs.

The newer CQD-220A has 220A/TM (both MSCP and TMSCP at the same time)
and 220A/M/T (either MSCP or TMSCP, but not both at the same time)
versions. The boards that I have with CQD-220A/E stickers on them must
be the same thing as a CQD-220A/M/T. This newer redesigned version is
roughly half through hole, and half surface mount, including a large
CMD ASIC. The firmware is contained in two 27C512 EPROMs.

I just looked at the CQD-220/TM firmware images that I have. I must
have the B2A 06/24/94 version installed on my boards. In that version
I don't see any RA strings in the firmware image. In the B3 09/23/94
version I do see RA strings.

CQD-220/TM B3 Firmware 09/23/94:

"List of all supported device media type
0. Default value
1. RA 70
2. RA 80
3. RA 81
4. RA 82
5. RA 90
6. RA 92
7. RC 25"

I'll have to try the B3 Firmware 09/23/94 version on my CQD-220/TM boards.

Anyway, I'll still try to find time to see exactly what MSCP drive
geometry a CQD-220A reports when configured for RA drive emulation.

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[geneb via cctalk]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


Old tech, but not computers:
https://madison.com/business/galesville-antique-phone-dealers-looking-to-offload-vast-collection/article_b1845009-c861-50ff-82c8-60a15866fc6d.html


On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:

451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country


We must prevent advanced rotary dial technology from falling into the wrong 
hands!


This message brought to you by the Totalitarian Touch Tone Terrorists(tm).

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Old tech, but not computers:
https://madison.com/business/galesville-antique-phone-dealers-looking-to-offload-vast-collection/article_b1845009-c861-50ff-82c8-60a15866fc6d.html


On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:

451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country


We must prevent advanced rotary dial technology from falling into the 
wrong hands!

HDDs (Was: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

One of the moxt common causes of a terrible ear-piercing high whine is the
spindle contact.  Many old drives had a springy piece that rubbed against
the end of the spindle.  Over time, it would wear a divot, polish that,
and start to squeal.  A very light pressure on it would test that
hypothesis.  Not enough pressure to muffle the sound, and certaianly not
enough pressure to slow the spindle!  Or, pulling up on it, away from the
spindle.  Some people claimed that you could just rip it off.  Don't.
Best is to twist it very slightly sideways, so that it can start wearing a
new divot.


On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:

It was a 3½" EIDE drive. 8GB one, I think, but might have been
smaller. I didn't want to open it to do that, although there was a
time when custom PC builders "de-lidded" hard disks and fitted them
with little acrylic windows so you could see the head move. Not sure
I'd want to trust my data to that...


Yes.
I was thinking in terms of slightly older drives than that, particularly 
5.25"

Getting at the slider on newer drives wouldn't be practical.


Well, there don't seem to be many 350 RAMAC disks still running.
(I'm trying to decide what to use as a base to make a patio table out of a
[crashed] RAMAC 24" platter)

Conceded.
And thank you for the reminder that I'm not old yet.


The RAMAC came out in 1956?  The platters are 24" diameter.  Each platter 
was almost 100K!  But, with 50 platters, it maxed out at almost 5MB.
When Nikita Khruschev made a peace mission to USA, they took him on a tour 
of the RAMAC facility.  But, they wouldn't let him go to DisneyLand! (THAT 
had repercussions in the Cuban missile crisis)



My first machine with a hard disk was my work PC in my first job: an
IBM PC-AT, with a 20 MB FS/FH 5¼" ST-506 drive, probably a Seagate
ST-4026. I added a second drive to the machine, a 15 MB one, and put
Xenix/286 on it.


You could run Xenix on an XT!
The stock IBM XT HDD controller (Xebec) had physical solder pads for drive 
type, and supported 5MB, 10MB, 15MB, and 25MB drives.  The 25 was, of 
course, best (if you could get one) and would permit a 10MB DOS partition 
dual booting with 15MB Xenix.  Was that the first "dual boot" in the 
PC world?  (or was there a CP/M-86 dual boot option once they added HDD 
support?)



A few years ago I bought a surplus 2½" 1 TB drive from a chap who'd
bought a new notebook and put an SSD in it before use. So, 2nd hand
but unused.
It cost me CzK 1000, about £30 at the time.
£30 for a terabyte. I was in a state of shock. It was so tiny, too.
I found an online capacity comparator thing.


I used a lot of ST4096 drives.  Needed a second AT power supply for the 
second one.

You'd need a pile of those Seagate drives the size of a _space
shuttle_ to hold a terabyte.
https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/53353.html


I use 2TB 2.5" 7.5mm Seagate/Samsung drives for MP4s of movies in 
laptops and with a Seagate GoFlex-TV (media streamer with SATA slot)
But, I finally filled 2TB 
Currently, that is the largest 7.5mm 2.5" drive available.  But SSDs are 
now available in 2TB, so when that price comes down, . . .



Heard about the NSA Utah Data Center?
https://nsa.gov1.info/utah-data-center/
That's a LottaBytes!

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[Kevin Monceaux via cctalk]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 09:58:00AM -0600, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
 
> Old tech, but not computers:

I have a fondness for old rotary dial phones, especially ones like they used
in movies and TV shows set in the '40s and '50s.  I've never managed to
acquire one.  I'd love to have a few of them, but not that many.  :-)




-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

Re: Free: 2x DEC Alpha workstations - 164LX and XP1000

[Robert via cctalk]

Hi Arun

If the DEC Alpha workstations are still available I may be able to
take them, thanks. I live in Amarillo but have a brother in law who
lives in San Marcos and works in Austin - I'm sure that he's be
willing to pick them up for me and hold them until I'm next down that
way.

Let me know, please.

Thanks
Robert

On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 11:27 AM K. Arun via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I have a couple of Alpha workstations that were last used 5-6 years ago
> with some version of Tru64 on them. They haven't been turned on since, and
> may need some work to get running again. They're free to anyone who thinks
> they can use them, and can pick them up from the 78722 zip code (near UT
> Austin).  Please contact me off-list to co-ordinate pickup.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Arun

Re: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 2/19/19 12:05 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> Ah, cool thanks!
> 
> I'm interested in storing arbitrary files in the manner close to the
> original as possible. Sounds like the extent list and allocation map would
> be useful for this; not so much the document content format.
> --
> Anders Nelson

Hi Anders,

No, it's more complicated than that--there are a lot of structures
involved.  I'm certain that the 6580 had a way to store executable
files, for example, but I've never run into a sample.

You may be better off adapting the CP/M-86 code form the 6580.

--Chuck

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[geneb via cctalk]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:


On 02/19/2019 10:18 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote:
So basically, they're blocking EU users from a website due to a law that 
has no effect in the US?  Amazing.


I thought I had heard from a number of people that GDPR could still bite 
people in other countries.  I don't remember the how, just that it could be 
done.


I'd be very interested in how that would be possible.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[Kevin Monceaux via cctalk]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 09:58:00AM -0600, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
 
> Old tech, but not computers:
> 
> https://madison.com/business/galesville-antique-phone-dealers-looking-to-offload-vast-collection/article_b1845009-c861-50ff-82c8-60a15866fc6d.html

Interesting, but what does it have to do with Kemners Surplus?


-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

Re: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

Ah, cool thanks!

I'm interested in storing arbitrary files in the manner close to the
original as possible. Sounds like the extent list and allocation map would
be useful for this; not so much the document content format.
--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com


On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 2:44 PM Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> On 2/19/19 11:12 AM, Anders Nelson wrote:
> > Hi again,
> >
> > Is there a description of the DW filesystem somewhere I can look at?
>
> Hi Anders,
>
> Not that I'm aware of, unless Al has some document squirreled away that
> we don't know about.
>
> What I know is from a lot of examining DW floppies and trying to
> reverse-engineer it--and what little I could find on the web.
>
> The DW filesystem is basically a linked-list sort of structure.  There's
> a volume header block that contains an extent list and allocation map,
> from which documents are treed from.  Each document, in turn, links to
> other entries that describe various properties of each document.  For
> example, the dates of the document, its name, the list of positions of
> lines within the document, the document text, the formatting information
> for the text, and so on.   It's pretty complicated.
>
> One aside is that even though the DW is an 8086 system, numeric
> quantities are big-endian.
>
> --Chuck
>
>

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 02/19/2019 10:18 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote:
So basically, they're blocking EU users from a website due to a law that 
has no effect in the US?  Amazing.


I thought I had heard from a number of people that GDPR could still bite 
people in other countries.  I don't remember the how, just that it could 
be done.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 2/19/19 12:37 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 5:39 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
>  wrote:
>>
>> All sounds like fun, but if the two emulations don't do RA81
>> correctly the information doesn't really do me much good.  I
>> certainly can't change the CQD's idea of what an RA81 is.
>>
> 
> I have mostly used CMD CQD-220/TM controllers. As far as I remember
> they do not have an RA drive emulation option.

I have a 220A/TM and it certainly does.  Pages 4-10 thru 4-15
of the manual, particularly Configuration Options "A" and "1".

> 
> I also have some of the newer CMD CQD-220A/E controllers (the 220A/E
> being Either MSCP or TMSCP but not both at the same time, while the
> 220A/TM can be both MSCP and TMSCP at the same time). I'll see if I
> can find some time today to take a look at the RA drive emulation
> option using a CMD CQD-220A/E controller, and see exactly what it
> reports for MSCP drive geometry.
> 

Not familiar with the 220A/E it's not mentioned in my manual.
Probably a much newer version.

bill

Re: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

Hi again,

Is there a description of the DW filesystem somewhere I can look at?

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019, 2:11 PM Anders Nelson  Ali - you bet I will! =P
>
> Chuck - thanks for the notes. I have no idea what it actually came from
> but I imagine it did come with a Display writer system. No problem with the
> format in which the data is stored, I can always present a more reasonable
> storage interface to the user via FTP or something. EBCDIC conversion or
> simply writing arbitrary bits is fine with me.
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2019, 1:54 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org wrote:
>
>> On 2/19/19 8:48 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
>> > Hi friends,
>> >
>> > Now that I have my glorious disk toaster (2D model I think, says "2D" on
>> > the drive levers), I want to build a controller for it. I found pinouts
>> and
>> > some description of the media organization here:
>> >
>> >
>> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/6580_Displaywriter/S241-6248-3_Displaywriter_6360_6580_Product_Support_Manual_Feb1983.pdf
>> >
>> > I'd like to actually store data to these disks in the same manner the
>> > original systems did, and I'm proficient in hardware/firmware. Has
>> anyone
>> > made a controller for this already? How about emulating the filesystem?
>> >
>> > Any help is appreciated, and I'd open-source whatever I make (PCBs,
>> > firmware, etc.).
>>
>> Are you talking about the disk unit for the Displaywriter (6580)?
>>
>> Those don't use what you'd call a general-purpose filesystem in their
>> native mode (although there was a version of CP/M 86).  The DW
>> filesystem is very specific to that word-processing application and
>> probably not useful for general-purpose applications.  And, of course,
>> the character code used is EBCDIC.
>>
>> --Chuck
>>
>>
>>

Re: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

Ali - you bet I will! =P

Chuck - thanks for the notes. I have no idea what it actually came from but
I imagine it did come with a Display writer system. No problem with the
format in which the data is stored, I can always present a more reasonable
storage interface to the user via FTP or something. EBCDIC conversion or
simply writing arbitrary bits is fine with me.


On Tue, Feb 19, 2019, 1:54 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk  On 2/19/19 8:48 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> > Hi friends,
> >
> > Now that I have my glorious disk toaster (2D model I think, says "2D" on
> > the drive levers), I want to build a controller for it. I found pinouts
> and
> > some description of the media organization here:
> >
> >
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/6580_Displaywriter/S241-6248-3_Displaywriter_6360_6580_Product_Support_Manual_Feb1983.pdf
> >
> > I'd like to actually store data to these disks in the same manner the
> > original systems did, and I'm proficient in hardware/firmware. Has anyone
> > made a controller for this already? How about emulating the filesystem?
> >
> > Any help is appreciated, and I'd open-source whatever I make (PCBs,
> > firmware, etc.).
>
> Are you talking about the disk unit for the Displaywriter (6580)?
>
> Those don't use what you'd call a general-purpose filesystem in their
> native mode (although there was a version of CP/M 86).  The DW
> filesystem is very specific to that word-processing application and
> probably not useful for general-purpose applications.  And, of course,
> the character code used is EBCDIC.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

Re: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 2/19/19 8:48 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> Hi friends,
> 
> Now that I have my glorious disk toaster (2D model I think, says "2D" on
> the drive levers), I want to build a controller for it. I found pinouts and
> some description of the media organization here:
> 
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/6580_Displaywriter/S241-6248-3_Displaywriter_6360_6580_Product_Support_Manual_Feb1983.pdf
> 
> I'd like to actually store data to these disks in the same manner the
> original systems did, and I'm proficient in hardware/firmware. Has anyone
> made a controller for this already? How about emulating the filesystem?
> 
> Any help is appreciated, and I'd open-source whatever I make (PCBs,
> firmware, etc.).

Are you talking about the disk unit for the Displaywriter (6580)?

Those don't use what you'd call a general-purpose filesystem in their
native mode (although there was a version of CP/M 86).  The DW
filesystem is very specific to that word-processing application and
probably not useful for general-purpose applications.  And, of course,
the character code used is EBCDIC.

--Chuck

RE: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Ali via cctalk]

> I'm planning on a USB controller, but I've seen ISA projects that are
> also
> microcontroller based so I think it wouldn't be awfully difficult to
> replace the USB data pipe with an ISA one.

Well just because you don't have enough to do please plan on an ISA version as 
well ;) I think it really is time someone did a super floppy controller 
bringing together a number of older technology on to one easy to use card (e.g. 
8" drive support, copy protection bypass, GCR reading) - all of this was 
available as separate products in the past...

> My friends think it's silly, and they're probably right. =P


Hey silly things can lead to great discoveries: 
https://gizmodo.com/scientists-produce-rigorous-study-of-why-grapes-spark-i-1832660386

-Ali

> 
> On Tue, Feb 19, 2019, 1:18 PM Ali  
> > >
> > > Now that I have my glorious disk toaster (2D model I think, says
> "2D"
> > > on
> > > the drive levers), I want to build a controller for it. I found
> pinouts
> > > and
> > > some description of the media organization here:
> > >
> > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/6580_Displaywriter/S241-
> > > 6248-3_Displaywriter_6360_6580_Product_Support_Manual_Feb1983.pdf
> >
> > Congratulations! Those are nice looking drives. The problem of course
> is
> > they don't work with anything "standard".
> >
> > > I'd like to actually store data to these disks in the same manner
> the
> > > original systems did, and I'm proficient in hardware/firmware. Has
> > > anyone
> > > made a controller for this already? How about emulating the
> filesystem?
> >
> > Wow. That is going to be big endeavor A question what is your
> target
> > system (i.e. are you planning on implementing this on a controller
> > connected to a modern system w/ USB or are you planning on a nice ISA
> card
> > so these drives can be used on older systems?) I wish I could help
> you
> > technically but my background is far removed from engineering...
> However, I
> > will follow with great interest specially if you go the ISA route...
> >
> > -Ali
> >
> >

Re: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

Ok, are there command/response listings for these controllers, or one for
this exact unit?

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019, 1:29 PM Eric Smith  From a rather cursory examination of the manual, it looks like they put
> the controller in the diskette unit itself ("Diskette Signal Cable", figure
> 8-22), so you should be able to hook it up to just about any
> microcontroller. It's probably a 765/8272 style controller.
>

Re: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

>From a rather cursory examination of the manual, it looks like they put the
controller in the diskette unit itself ("Diskette Signal Cable", figure
8-22), so you should be able to hook it up to just about any
microcontroller. It's probably a 765/8272 style controller.

Re: IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

Hi Ali,

I'm planning on a USB controller, but I've seen ISA projects that are also
microcontroller based so I think it wouldn't be awfully difficult to
replace the USB data pipe with an ISA one.

Zooming out, I have a list of USB controllers to build:

- Kennedy 9800 tape drive
- IBM 6360 8" floppy drive
- IBM  5 1/4" floppy drive

My friends think it's silly, and they're probably right. =P

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019, 1:18 PM Ali  >
> > Now that I have my glorious disk toaster (2D model I think, says "2D"
> > on
> > the drive levers), I want to build a controller for it. I found pinouts
> > and
> > some description of the media organization here:
> >
> > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/6580_Displaywriter/S241-
> > 6248-3_Displaywriter_6360_6580_Product_Support_Manual_Feb1983.pdf
>
> Congratulations! Those are nice looking drives. The problem of course is
> they don't work with anything "standard".
>
> > I'd like to actually store data to these disks in the same manner the
> > original systems did, and I'm proficient in hardware/firmware. Has
> > anyone
> > made a controller for this already? How about emulating the filesystem?
>
> Wow. That is going to be big endeavor A question what is your target
> system (i.e. are you planning on implementing this on a controller
> connected to a modern system w/ USB or are you planning on a nice ISA card
> so these drives can be used on older systems?) I wish I could help you
> technically but my background is far removed from engineering... However, I
> will follow with great interest specially if you go the ISA route...
>
> -Ali
>
>

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Feb 19, 2019, at 11:51 AM, Charles Anthony  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
> Presumably SIMH is returning RA81_LBN (891072) as the device size; this is 
> calculated based on the 51 sectors/track. If the h/w is returning a size 
> based on 52, then there is a mismatch which could be the source of the 
> problem. It has been hypothesised that the original problem is related to 
> SIMH misreporting the disk size; I was trying to point out a possible source 
> of error; does anyone know what size the h/w reports?
> 
> -- Charles

Some people here probably have an actual drive and can double check.

Meanwhile, I found the "RA60, RA80, and RA81 disk drives" brochure (DEC, August 
1982) on Archive.org.  It has the details in the back.  Page 36 shows "User 
data capacity" and says 51 sectors, 14 tracks, 1248 cylinders -- that works out 
to 891072 sectors which is the number SIMH uses.

So indeed the correct sector count is 51 (the other one is a spare, a technique 
used by DEC as far back as the RM80).

paul

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 5:39 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> All sounds like fun, but if the two emulations don't do RA81
> correctly the information doesn't really do me much good.  I
> certainly can't change the CQD's idea of what an RA81 is.
>

I have mostly used CMD CQD-220/TM controllers. As far as I remember
they do not have an RA drive emulation option.

I also have some of the newer CMD CQD-220A/E controllers (the 220A/E
being Either MSCP or TMSCP but not both at the same time, while the
220A/TM can be both MSCP and TMSCP at the same time). I'll see if I
can find some time today to take a look at the RA drive emulation
option using a CMD CQD-220A/E controller, and see exactly what it
reports for MSCP drive geometry.

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 11:03 AM Peter Coghlan via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> >
> > Old tech, but not computers:
> >
> >
> https://madison.com/business/galesville-antique-phone-dealers-looking-to-offload-vast-collection/article_b1845009-c861-50ff-82c8-60a15866fc6d.html
> >
>
>
> Definitely something funky with the website. I ended up doing a quick
select-all, copy to get the story before the page regenerated to 'lost
connection' status.

I bought some equipment from PhoneCo in person back in the 90s when antique
phones were still holding their value and even then the experience was, to
put it politely, a real mess. Crumbling buildings, piles upon piles of
dusty, busted up surplus phones. Truckloads of equipment sitting out in the
elements. Finding a buyer today will be a challenge, to say the least. -C

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[geneb via cctalk]

On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:



Old tech, but not computers:

https://madison.com/business/galesville-antique-phone-dealers-looking-to-offload-vast-collection/article_b1845009-c861-50ff-82c8-60a15866fc6d.html



451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging
to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General
Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at
this time. For any issues, contact hostmas...@madison.com or call 800-362-8333.

So basically, they're blocking EU users from a website due to a law that 
has no effect in the US?  Amazing.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

this guy   is  amazing   




In a message dated 2/19/2019 10:03:23 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:
> Old tech, but not computers:
> 
> https://madison.com/business/galesville-antique-phone-dealers-looking-to-offload-vast-collection/article_b1845009-c861-50ff-82c8-60a15866fc6d.html
>

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

[Charles Anthony via cctalk]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 6:27 AM Paul Koning  wrote:

>
>
> > On Feb 18, 2019, at 11:22 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >> ...
> > Looking at the SIMH code:
> >
> > /*
> >type sec surfcyl tpg gpc RCT LBNs
> >RA81 51(+1)  14  125814  1   2856891072
> > */
> >
> > #define RA81_SECT   51  /* +1
> spare/track */
> > #define RA81_SURF   14
> > #define RA81_CYL1258/* 0-1247 user */
> > #define RA81_TPGRA81_SURF
> > #define RA81_GPC1
> > #define RA81_XBN2436/* cyl
> 1252-1254? */
> > #define RA81_DBN2436/* cyl
> 1255-1256? */
> > #define RA81_LBN891072  /* 51*14*1248 */
> > #define RA81_RCTS   2856/* cyl
> 1248-1251? */
> > #define RA81_RCTC   1
> > #define RA81_RBN17472   /* 1 *14*1248 */
> >
> > I am presuming that (without actually checking) that these are the
> numbers
> > returned to RSTS when it queries the disk; if these numbers are different
> > then the h/w, then that could be an issue. I am a bit curious about "+1
> > spare/track" - I wonder if the h/w reports 51 or 52?
> >
> > -- Charles
>
> RSTS doesn't care about geometry, though MSCP does return something it
> calls geometry, for optimization purposes.  All RSTS wants to know is the
> device size, in 512-byte blocks.  Whatever the controller returns is what
> it uses.
>
>
Presumably SIMH is returning RA81_LBN (891072) as the device size; this is
calculated based on the 51 sectors/track. If the h/w is returning a size
based on 52, then there is a mismatch which could be the source of the
problem. It has been hypothesised that the original problem is related to
SIMH misreporting the disk size; I was trying to point out a possible
source of error; does anyone know what size the h/w reports?

-- Charles

IBM 6360 - Filesystem(ish) info?

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

Hi friends,

Now that I have my glorious disk toaster (2D model I think, says "2D" on
the drive levers), I want to build a controller for it. I found pinouts and
some description of the media organization here:

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/6580_Displaywriter/S241-6248-3_Displaywriter_6360_6580_Product_Support_Manual_Feb1983.pdf

I'd like to actually store data to these disks in the same manner the
original systems did, and I'm proficient in hardware/firmware. Has anyone
made a controller for this already? How about emulating the filesystem?

Any help is appreciated, and I'd open-source whatever I make (PCBs,
firmware, etc.).

Thanks!
--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

Gone, I'm sorry to report!

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com


On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 10:05 AM Derek Newland 
wrote:

> There are many pictures on their Facebook page
> . Of particular
> interest, is this one of an IBM System/34 chassis:
>
> https://www.facebook.com/KemnerEnterprises/photos/a.1770653292985604/1768376576546609/
>
> On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 1:52 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I heard Kemners Surplus in Pottstown, PA was going away so I decided to
>> pay
>> them a visit. I'm taking pictures of as much vintage computing gear as I
>> can as we speak. I'll be here until they close today at 5pm EST, so if you
>> see something you like feel free to give them a call and I'll help them
>> navigate.
>>
>> Photos updated as I walk through, here:
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Q8Jx7n36fmVczLN8
>>
>> If you see something you like it'd be great if you could check if I'm
>> interested first until I'm finished today. ;]
>>
>> Hope this helps someone, they shut down soon!
>>
>
>
> --
> *Derek Newland* | (828) 234-4731 | derek.newl...@gmail.com
>

OT: Phone museum seeks new owner

[John Foust via cctalk]

Old tech, but not computers:

https://madison.com/business/galesville-antique-phone-dealers-looking-to-offload-vast-collection/article_b1845009-c861-50ff-82c8-60a15866fc6d.html

- John

Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough

[Derek Newland via cctalk]

There are many pictures on their Facebook page
. Of particular
interest, is this one of an IBM System/34 chassis:
https://www.facebook.com/KemnerEnterprises/photos/a.1770653292985604/1768376576546609/

On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 1:52 PM Anders Nelson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I heard Kemners Surplus in Pottstown, PA was going away so I decided to pay
> them a visit. I'm taking pictures of as much vintage computing gear as I
> can as we speak. I'll be here until they close today at 5pm EST, so if you
> see something you like feel free to give them a call and I'll help them
> navigate.
>
> Photos updated as I walk through, here:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Q8Jx7n36fmVczLN8
>
> If you see something you like it'd be great if you could check if I'm
> interested first until I'm finished today. ;]
>
> Hope this helps someone, they shut down soon!
>


-- 
*Derek Newland* | (828) 234-4731 | derek.newl...@gmail.com

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Tue, Feb 19, 2019, 7:24 AM Paul Koning 
>
> > On Feb 18, 2019, at 10:29 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 6:18 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
> > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >> ...
> >> No, RX50 was a strange DEC format.  RX33 is a 1.2M floppy.
> >
> > The RX50 was a single sided 800 block floppy. The first two tracks had no
> > interleave. The rest has 2:1 interleave, though sometimes physical and
> > other times logical. Strange in some ways, kinda standard in others. But
> > it's still a floppy, and other than size, much like the RX33 with 1/3 the
> > number of blocks.
> >
> > Warner
>
> That's not correct.
>
> RX50 is 80 track, single sided, 10 sectors per track (not the PC-standard
> 9 per track).  All tracks are 2:1 interleaved.  There is a 3 sector skew
> from track to track.  And logical track 0 is physical track 1 (physical
> track 0 is logical track 79).
>

The interleave is logical on the Rainbow. The drive is formatted to 1, 2,
3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, however after track 2 they are logically
interlaved by the drivers in Venix, Dos and CP/M. There is no skew there,
except for Venix...  And on the Rainbow, tracks are purely sequential...
Guess that lead me astray for the pdp-11 users...

The MSCP controller does this; on a Pro it's done in the driver.  I've done
> it for RSTS, but it's easy to confirm by reading the source code of DEC
> drivers such as the one in RT-11.
>

I stand corrected. Yet another odd quirk of this quirky media. I recall
from back in the day there are other DECmate quirks...

Warner

>

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Feb 18, 2019, at 11:22 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
>> ...
> Looking at the SIMH code:
> 
> /*
>type sec surfcyl tpg gpc RCT LBNs
>RA81 51(+1)  14  125814  1   2856891072
> */
> 
> #define RA81_SECT   51  /* +1 spare/track */
> #define RA81_SURF   14
> #define RA81_CYL1258/* 0-1247 user */
> #define RA81_TPGRA81_SURF
> #define RA81_GPC1
> #define RA81_XBN2436/* cyl 1252-1254? */
> #define RA81_DBN2436/* cyl 1255-1256? */
> #define RA81_LBN891072  /* 51*14*1248 */
> #define RA81_RCTS   2856/* cyl 1248-1251? */
> #define RA81_RCTC   1
> #define RA81_RBN17472   /* 1 *14*1248 */
> 
> I am presuming that (without actually checking) that these are the numbers
> returned to RSTS when it queries the disk; if these numbers are different
> then the h/w, then that could be an issue. I am a bit curious about "+1
> spare/track" - I wonder if the h/w reports 51 or 52?
> 
> -- Charles

RSTS doesn't care about geometry, though MSCP does return something it calls 
geometry, for optimization purposes.  All RSTS wants to know is the device 
size, in 512-byte blocks.  Whatever the controller returns is what it uses.

This is why in SIMH you can use "RAUSER" devices with MSCP, any size you like 
up to 8 megablocks.  RSTS doesn't limit you to the sizes of the DEC MSCP 
products, and in fact you won't find any list of those model codes or any of 
their attributes in the RSTS sources.

paul

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Feb 18, 2019, at 10:29 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 6:18 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> ...
>> No, RX50 was a strange DEC format.  RX33 is a 1.2M floppy.
> 
> The RX50 was a single sided 800 block floppy. The first two tracks had no
> interleave. The rest has 2:1 interleave, though sometimes physical and
> other times logical. Strange in some ways, kinda standard in others. But
> it's still a floppy, and other than size, much like the RX33 with 1/3 the
> number of blocks.
> 
> Warner

That's not correct.

RX50 is 80 track, single sided, 10 sectors per track (not the PC-standard 9 per 
track).  All tracks are 2:1 interleaved.  There is a 3 sector skew from track 
to track.  And logical track 0 is physical track 1 (physical track 0 is logical 
track 79).

The MSCP controller does this; on a Pro it's done in the driver.  I've done it 
for RSTS, but it's easy to confirm by reading the source code of DEC drivers 
such as the one in RT-11.

paul

Re: PDP-11 disk image question

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 2/18/19 10:59 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 5:18 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
>  wrote:
>>
>> Well, all I really have are CQD module which does MSCP and TMSCP
>> over SCSI.
> 
> Do you have any SCSI tape drives? 

Sure.  I have a SCSI 9-track and a 1.4" QIC  (TKZ-10) and even a
SCSI TK50 if I ever get it fixed (but then we know how likely it
is that any of the physical TK50 drives will actually work at this
point in time!!)  But all of these require TMSCP media and the only
one I have ever seen (and actually have in my possession) is TK50.

>I have successfully installed RSTS/E
> 10.1 from install tapes on real PDP-11 hardware using an Exabyte
> EXB-8200 8mm tape drive attached to a CMD CQD-220/TM. The target hard
> drive for the installation was also attached to the CMD CQD-220/TM.
> That is always one route you could try.

Yes, if I could get a TMSCP Install Kit on a 9-track tape. :-)

> 
> My guess is that the other posts about disk sizes being different is
> likely the issue. When I want to use a physical drive attached to
> Q-Bus SCSI controller to be the target of a copying a simulated disk,
> I usually try to verify that the MSCP block count for the physical
> drive is actually what I expect it to be.

I guess I was naive.  I used to work with real RA drives in the
past and figured the emulations were at least accurate enough to
know how big the disk was.  It wasn't a secret.

> 
> If I can attach the Q-Bus SCSI controller and drive to a MicroVAX
> system I can boot VMS and mount /foreign the drive and show dev /full
> the drive to get the block count. Or if the the Q-Bus SCSI controller
> and drive are attached to an 11/53, /73, /83 (or /93 if I had one of
> those) I can boot the 2.11BSD install tape and run the standalone
> disklabel program to display the reported MSCP geometry of the drive.
> The must be several other ways to display the MSCP reported geometry
> of a drive, those are just two that I have used myself in the past.
> 

All sounds like fun, but if the two emulations don't do RA81
correctly the information doesn't really do me much good.  I
certainly can't change the CQD's idea of what an RA81 is.

I am sure  once I successfully leap this hurdle the system will
run RSTS nicely (I only wish I had the CIS option for one of my
machines).  Like I said earlier, good thing this is only a
hobby.

bill

Re: RS/6000 7043-140 boot floppies

[Rico Pajarola via cctalk]

On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 6:49 PM Alan Perry via cctech 
wrote:

>
> Is there some trick to making boot floppies for the RS/6000 7043-140 (a
> mid-90s PReP architecture machine)?
>
> I initially tried to install Solaris 2.5.1 on it and created the boot
>
#wrong43p

Solaris 2.5.1 PPC doesn't work on that machine.

I can't find the HCL doc, but according to the files present on the CD it
runs on:

IBM 6040 (ThinkPad 820)
IBM 6042 (ThinkPad 850)
IBM 6015 (PowerSeries 440, 7020-40P)
IBM 6050 (PowerSeries 830, 7248-43P)
IBM 6070 (PowerSeries 850, 7248-43P)
IBM 7248 (43P-100, 43P-120, 43P-132)
Motorola PowerStack Series DT/E/MT

The 7248-43P is substantially different from a 7043-140 "43P". I have it
running on a PowerStack Series E.

Did anyone ever unearth the Sun compiler for that?


floppy by dd'ing the image using a SPARCstation (running NetBSD). I
> dd'ed the image over, dd'ed it back and verified the SPARCstation could
> read back what it had written to the floppy. The RS/6000 loads what is
> on the floppy, but hangs transferring control to what it loaded.
>
> The 7043-140 does not appear on the list of supported systems in the
> Solaris 2.5.1 release notes, so, even though 2.5.1 supports PReP and the
> 7043-140 is a PReP machine, maybe they aren't compatible, so I tried
> NetBSD. The 7043-140 is listed as a supported system.
>
> The NetBSD boot floppy images are confusing to me. The files are too
> large to fit on a 1.44M floppy. I didn't see instructions on how to make
> boot floppies out of the .fs files one can download in the install
> instructions. I went ahead and tried to dd the part that fits onto a
> 1.44M floppy and try to boot that and of course that failed. I have
> e-mailed the NetBSD prep mailing list and no response from that.
>
> The system does boot the AIX install on one of its hard disks, but this
> is a recycled system and I don't have usernames/passwords for that install.
>
> Does anyone here have a suggestion on how to proceed?
>
> alan
>
>

Re: PDP-11/45 RSTS/E boot problem

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 at 22:16, Fred Cisin via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> One of the moxt common causes of a terrible ear-piercing high whine is the
> spindle contact.  Many old drives had a springy piece that rubbed against
> the end of the spindle.  Over time, it would wear a divot, polish that,
> and start to squeal.  A very light pressure on it would test that
> hypothesis.  Not enough pressure to muffle the sound, and certaianly not
> enough pressure to slow the spindle!  Or, pulling up on it, away from the
> spindle.  Some people claimed that you could just rip it off.  Don't.
> Best is to twist it very slightly sideways, so that it can start wearing a
> new divot.

It was a 3½" EIDE drive. 8GB one, I think, but might have been
smaller. I didn't want to open it to do that, although there was a
time when custom PC builders "de-lidded" hard disks and fitted them
with little acrylic windows so you could see the head move. Not sure
I'd want to trust my data to that...

> Well, there don't seem to be many 350 RAMAC disks still running.
>
> (I'm trying to decide what to use as a base to make a patio table out of a
> [crashed] RAMAC 24" platter)

Conceded.

And thank you for the reminder that I'm not old yet.

My first machine with a hard disk was my work PC in my first job: an
IBM PC-AT, with a 20 MB FS/FH 5¼" ST-506 drive, probably a Seagate
ST-4026. I added a second drive to the machine, a 15 MB one, and put
Xenix/286 on it.

A few years ago I bought a surplus 2½" 1 TB drive from a chap who'd
bought a new notebook and put an SSD in it before use. So, 2nd hand
but unused.

It cost me CzK 1000, about £30 at the time.

£30 for a terabyte. I was in a state of shock. It was so tiny, too.

I found an online capacity comparator thing.

You'd need a pile of those Seagate drives the size of a _space
shuttle_ to hold a terabyte.

https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/53353.html

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

tracometer model 6a

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

anyone ever herd of one? mines searial number 002
says national research councle of canada made by eda electronics

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5723/Bnz2VF.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6783/nHesKB.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5776/wimiv2.jpg