RE: PDP 11/15

[Paul Birkel via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
Koning via cctech
> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 1:59 PM
> To: Bob Smith; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Cc: Al Kossow
> Subject: Re: PDP 11/15
>
>...
> 11/15 as a designation for an LSI based machine doesn't ring any bells at
all.
>
>   paul

PDT-11/150?  It is based on an LSI-11 and if you squint at the designation a
bit ...

-

vaxstation ii machine check & diags efficacy

[Joe Zatarski via cctalk]

> It's a VAXstation II/GPX. I'm trying to install VMS 5.5 (from CD if it
matters; there is a CMD CQD-200 or -220 as the only storage controller) and
routinely getting machine check exceptions.
>
> Standalone backup always boots. Sometimes I get an exception the moment I
hit  on a restore; sometimes in the middle of the restore, sometimes
it runs to successful completion.
>
> VMS never boots. Sometimes I get as far as the date prompt (I took out
the battery), sometimes it gets a little farther, frequently it's before
anything appears on the console at all.
>
> The exceptions booting VMS occur the same if I attach another disk with
VMS 5.5 already installed; if I replace the KA630 and M7609 with a KA655
and M7622, it all seems to run fine.
>
> The KA630 power-on diagnostics all pass, but... it smells like a memory
fault to me. What are the odds there could be a memory fault that isn't
caught by the diags?
>
> ok
> bear.
>
> --
> until further notice

Well, if the KA630 diagnostics are anything like the KA650 diagnostics, the
power on self test is not too thorough as I learned. I found 10 bad DRAMs
on a KA650, the POST only found 2 of them. The rest I had to test by
running tests from the monitor with tighter parameters.

You should get into the console monitor on the KA630 and see if you can get
a list of tests to be run with the TEST command. Sometimes they have
parameters, and you can specify more thorough tests to be run. Keep in
mind, they may take considerably longer to run than the POST does.

I'm speaking from KA650 experience here, but I was able to run the MEM_Data
test on all of memory with an address increment of 1. It took about 4 or 5
hours to complete I think, for 8MB of RAM.

Ep. 5 Thirteen minutes to the Moon Re: Apollo Guidance Computer Article

[Steve Malikoff via cctalk]

Chris said
> You might want to be explicit that the article is about the Apollo Guidance 
> Computer, not about Apollo Computer the workstation manufacturer.
>
>   — Chris

I'd like to mention the great podcast series 'Thirteen minutes to the Moon' the 
BBC is running right now.
Episode 5 is 'The Fouth Astronaut' covering the AGC. If you've watched the 
excellent Moon Machines series
it might cover what you've already known, but very good nonetheless:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csz4dn

Steve

Another disk pack inspection unit on ebay

[Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk]

See:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computer-Link-665-Series-600-Disc-Pack-Inspector-AO-American-Optical/173934678748?hash=item287f5092dc:g:GBsAAOSw~61cUegn

Bob

--
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org

Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 9:23 PM Bob Smith via cctalk
 wrote:
> My recollection, Unix on the 11 started with the 20 but because of the
> limited capabilties, it really was done on the /45.

The good stuff, yes, but it was still recognizable on the 11/20...

https://github.com/jserv/unix-v1

> > unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?

Based on comments from Ken Thompson at his keynote at VCF East this
year, just "PDP-11" (he specifically asked if anyone in the audience
had ever touched _that_ version, no "/20").

> The three rings or 3 execution levels were not supported on the
> original machine.

Sure but v1/v2 UNIX was a lot simpler than v5.

-ethan

Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 06/19/2019 08:23 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote:

My recollection, Unix on the 11 started with the 20 but because of the
limited capabilties, it really was done on the /45.
The three rings or 3 execution levels were not supported on the
original machine.

MMU and expanded memory would be a great help in a 
multi-user system.  The original PDP-11 with 56 KB of memory 
was pretty limited.  Great for DOS-11 and RT-11, but more 
complex OS'es needed more resources.


Jon

Re: VENIX on Rainbow (was Re: Wanting to get my first classic computer)

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 8:47 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk
 wrote:
> > Interesting.  I have VENIX on a Professional 350 (it was one of the
> > machines I had on display for VCF East).  I haven't tried fiddling
> > with VENIX on a Rainbow, though I did know it existed.
>
> Venix/PRO on a 380 here. I like it. Thinking about ways to make it
> primitively networked.

There is a DECNA, if you can find one.  It should work for 2.9BSD or
2.11BSD so it wouldn't be that hard to adapt to Venix, I'd wager.

Outside of that, SLIP/PPP?  UUCP?

-ethan

Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?

[Bob Smith via cctalk]

My recollection, Unix on the 11 started with the 20 but because of the
limited capabilties, it really was done on the /45.
The three rings or 3 execution levels were not supported on the
original machine.
bb

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 5:20 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
>
> Help - have a  nice  looking  11/20  plus  a  weird analog  computer and  a  
> Nike guidance  gyro platform  for  AJAX (  2  gyros loose  need  prints  to  
> rewire  correctly)  in  trade  for  and  extra  ribbon Mike  we  had.
> so anyway today's  questions
>
> -  bell labs  UNIX  machine   says  11  or  11/20
> -anyone have schematics or wiring chart  for NIKE AJAX  Gyro Plantform?
> Drop offlist  as  not  to  clutter  things
> thanks  Ed#

Re: VENIX on Rainbow (was Re: Wanting to get my first classic computer)

[Cameron Kaiser via cctalk]

> > ... I'm currently on a DEC
> > Rainbow VENIX boondoggle trying too reconstruct frmo v7 and sys III sources
> > now available the original Venix 86R source code... :)
> 
> Interesting.  I have VENIX on a Professional 350 (it was one of the
> machines I had on display for VCF East).  I haven't tried fiddling
> with VENIX on a Rainbow, though I did know it existed.

Venix/PRO on a 380 here. I like it. Thinking about ways to make it
primitively networked.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- there's a dance or two in the old dame yet. -- mehitabel ---

Re: Missing posts in archive and no Subject: line

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Joe Zatarski joezatarski at gmail.com 

> The posts you mentioned were sent to cctech. .. that list is
> moderated .. You'll notice these posts are now in both archives. 

Ah, that could be it. I thought I'd found them in the Subject: thread
archive at the same time they weren't in the other, but maybe my memory is
faulty.

> From: Eric Christopherson

> the reply to the message headed "No subject" .. actually seems to
> have a blank subject, as a result of which it doesn't seem to be
> possible to even view it (since there's no link to click)! 

Which is how I discovered those messages which weren't (yet) in the
archive; I took the URL for the previous message, edited it to point to
the next message, and discovered the 'missing' ones. (Apparently the
list software makes messages available via the Web interface before
they've been approved and added to the archive.)

> John H. Reinhardt

> And now I know why your posts always break the threading in
> Thunderbird...

Hey,I don't want my emailbox clogged up with this stuff! :-)

Noel

unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?

Help - have a  nice  looking  11/20  plus  a  weird analog  computer and  a  
Nike guidance  gyro platform  for  AJAX (  2  gyros loose  need  prints  to  
rewire  correctly)      in  trade  for  and  extra  ribbon Mike  we  had.
so anyway today's  questions

-  bell labs  UNIX  machine   says  11  or  11/20
-anyone have schematics or wiring chart  for NIKE AJAX  Gyro Plantform?
Drop offlist  as  not  to  clutter  things
thanks  Ed#

Re: vaxstation ii machine check & diags efficacy

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:24 PM r.stricklin via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> It's a VAXstation II/GPX. I'm trying to install VMS 5.5 (from CD if it 
> matters; there is a CMD CQD-200 or -220 as the only storage controller) and 
> routinely getting machine check exceptions.
>
> Standalone backup always boots. Sometimes I get an exception the moment I hit 
>  on a restore; sometimes in the middle of the restore, sometimes it 
> runs to successful completion.
>
> VMS never boots. Sometimes I get as far as the date prompt (I took out the 
> battery), sometimes it gets a little farther, frequently it's before anything 
> appears on the console at all.
>
> The exceptions booting VMS occur the same if I attach another disk with VMS 
> 5.5 already installed; if I replace the KA630 and M7609 with a KA655 and 
> M7622, it all seems to run fine.
>
> The KA630 power-on diagnostics all pass, but... it smells like a memory fault 
> to me. What are the odds there could be a memory fault that isn't caught by 
> the diags?
>
> ok
> bear.

Maybe try running the MDM (MicroVAX Diagnostic Monitor) diagnostics
and see if they detect any issues that the power-on diagnostics do not
detect.

I have a bootable image of this version, which you should be able to
'dd' to a disk you can then attach to your CMD CQD-220,

uVDOS V4.0 built on 23-mar-1993  12:01

MicroVAX Diagnostic MonitorRelease 139   Version V5.0

  CONFIDENTIAL DIAGNOSTIC SOFTWARE
   PROPERTY OF
  DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION

   Use Authorized Only Pursuant to a Valid Right-to-use License

 Copyright (c) 1986, 1994
 Digital Equipment Corporation

Re: PDP 11/15

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 3:11 PM Mark Linimon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 03:01:50PM -0400, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote:
> > You know, one of the reasons I'm still on here is for the anecdotes
>
> Agreed!
>
> mcl
>

I am a big fan of bargain 11/15 too, that and the anecdotes of course.
b

vaxstation ii machine check & diags efficacy

[r.stricklin via cctalk]

It's a VAXstation II/GPX. I'm trying to install VMS 5.5 (from CD if it matters; 
there is a CMD CQD-200 or -220 as the only storage controller) and routinely 
getting machine check exceptions.

Standalone backup always boots. Sometimes I get an exception the moment I hit 
 on a restore; sometimes in the middle of the restore, sometimes it runs 
to successful completion.

VMS never boots. Sometimes I get as far as the date prompt (I took out the 
battery), sometimes it gets a little farther, frequently it's before anything 
appears on the console at all. 

The exceptions booting VMS occur the same if I attach another disk with VMS 5.5 
already installed; if I replace the KA630 and M7609 with a KA655 and M7622, it 
all seems to run fine.

The KA630 power-on diagnostics all pass, but... it smells like a memory fault 
to me. What are the odds there could be a memory fault that isn't caught by the 
diags?

ok
bear.

-- 
until further notice

Re: PDP 11/15

[Mark Linimon via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 03:01:50PM -0400, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote:
> You know, one of the reasons I'm still on here is for the anecdotes

Agreed!

mcl

Re: PDP 11/15

[Jacob Ritorto via cctalk]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 11:15 PM Randy Dawson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Paul,
> That is so cool!
> How much space would it take?
> That is my first computer (outside of timesharing and Z-80 homebrew).
> My first job was on the PDP-15 to transcribe the APOLLO analog range tapes
> of the lunar experiments, primarily the seismometer moonquake data for the
> University of Texas Geophysics Lab (they designed the seismometers).
>
> The machine was a pretty good wall, 4-5 racks.  On the other side of the
> room were the FM/Direct Bell and Howell analog range tape players and
> demodulators.
> I ran this stuff all night long, hanging tapes, using the scope to adjust
> analog heads for the best signal and transcribe to the digital tape.
> NASA was not interested in this stuff anymore, they were onto Skylab.  The
> ALSEP lunar stations were TEG powered and would go on for decades
> transmitting, probably still are.  All we got was freetime gratis from the
> range stations to point at the moon and hang a tape, the data was always
> bad and a challenge to tweak heads the best we could.
>
> We had a Versatec electrostatic plotter to output the continuous seismic
> record as I was decoding the tapes.
> Anytime there was an 'event' on the plotter, I had Dr. Yosio Nakamura's
> home number to call him in and take a look.
>
> Many nights, we re tweaked heads, to get the last bits of clean
> seismometer data.
>
> Randy
> Trivia: As I hung a tape out of sequence once, Fortran coders fixed that
> next day.  Next time it happened, the TTY chatters, RANDY! DIDN'T YOU
> ALREADY ENTER GMT JULIAN DATE XXX:XXX:XXX
> It was a all night job alone in the computer room, and I am listening  to
> Foghat between tape hangs and alignment.
>
>
>

You know, one of the reasons I'm still on here is for the anecdotes
and this is far and away the coolest anecdote I've read in quite some time!


Thanks for sharing, Randy; more, please!

Re: PDP 11/15

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Bob Smith

> there have been refs to another more modern unit, based on LSI[-]11
> or later chip set

I've never heard of that, and I wonder if DEC would really have released
a new product with the same name as an old one (the two PDP-11/10's
are different, as I'm not sure many of the first ones were sold, but
a ton of -11/15's were).

> I wonder if it is one of those or the orig.

This one is one of the -11/20 type ones.


> From: Paul Koning

> I only ever heard of an 11/15 as the 11/20 relabeled for OEM
> markets

According to the "pdp11/15/20/r20 processor handbook", 1972 edition (i.e.
the second edition of the -11/20 proc handbook), the /15 has (table on pg.
2) a "KC11" processor, which seems to be a KA11 with only a single
interrupt request line. (Maybe it has a replacement card for the M824,
with only a single interrupt line wired up?)

There's a 'KF11-A' option which upgrades it to multi-line (pg. 4), for
which there claims to be a manual (DEC-11-HKFA-D), but there are none
online, but from other traces online it does seem that some people had
to get and install it. So maybe the stuff in the proc manual isn't
just marketing wibble.

That same manual claims that power-fail restart was standard in the
KA11; it was an option for the KC11, the KP11-A.

Noel

Re: Teletype 5620 schematics

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 9:43 PM Al Kossow via cctalk 
wrote:

> came across these this eve, probably only of interest to Seth, since he
> has one
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/att/5620/schematic
>

There's also a set here:
http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/att/5620/

I have not compared them.

Re: PDP 11/15

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Jun 19, 2019, at 1:49 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> IIRC, there are two models called //15.
> The original, 10.5 high, an 11/20 with no power fail. We dold that to
> Aeroflot with about 10 racks of periphs.
> although I have never seen one, there have been refs to another more
> modern unit, based on LSI=11 or later chip set,
> so I wonder if it is one of those or the orig.
> tks
> bb

That's odd, I only ever heard of an 11/15 as the 11/20 relabeled for OEM 
markets, the same way 11/05 and 11/10 are the same machine but different 
markets.  Power fail was an option on the 11/20 too, as I recall.  I suppose 
the different marketing might produce different sets of options, or different 
choices for what was "the standard package".

11/15 as a designation for an LSI based machine doesn't ring any bells at all.

paul

Re: PDP 11/15

[Bob Smith via cctalk]

IIRC, there are two models called //15.
The original, 10.5 high, an 11/20 with no power fail. We dold that to
Aeroflot with about 10 racks of periphs.
although I have never seen one, there have been refs to another more
modern unit, based on LSI=11 or later chip set,
so I wonder if it is one of those or the orig.
tks
bb

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 11:40 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
 wrote:
>
>
>
> On 6/18/19 8:15 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
> > Paul,
> > That is so cool!
> > How much space would it take?
>
> 10.5" of rack space
>
> it is a PDP-11 model 15 (first generation)
>
>

Re: Wanting to get my first classic computer

[allison via cctalk]

On 06/19/2019 10:31 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> > From: Ray Jewhurst
> 
> > I would really like to get my own classic computer but I don't know
> > where to begin.
> 
> Two questions you need to sort out in your mind, to decide, are i) do you
> want something with a bit-mapped video screen, or are you happy with ASCII
> serial line only, and ii) what are you prepared to do for mass storage.
> 
> E.g. if you really want video, you're probably looking at something like a
> VAXStation or so; if ASCII will do you, a QBUS PDP-11 might be a good
> start, as with patience eBay can yield a cheap chassis, CPU etc (although
> in the last year or so the really cheap stuff seems to have dried up,
> alas).
> 
>   Noel
> 

Ray,

I'd take that a level deeper.

And old machine is like an old car.  Parts will be needed,
they will come from various places including scrounging, parts
may be unobtainium (long gone) or those available are expensive.
You will have to do most of the work as most will not touch it.

I liken having old systems and keeping them going to be like
having an exotic pet that would do better in a zoo and isn't
warm and cuddly and might even bite!

The likelihood of finding something is high, however it may require
work to get it up and running.  The work maybe electronic repair,
finding and replacing disk drives, or finding software on suitable
media.  There is also potential for replacing board or repairing
them.  If you lucky enough to acquire a working system, the task of
keeping working is also there (spare cards, media to back up the disks
to and so on).

For VAXStation and the like disk drives are getting old and replacement
is not unlikely. Qbus PDP-11 come in a large array of flavors and you
need complete documents for what you may have and is likely not DEC
standard configuration so you need all the supplemental documents
for the alterations.  At the same time finding media to load a copy
of the OS is also something to consider.

Besides OS specific knowledge you will require hardware specific
knowledge lest you run in merry circles for a s simple issue.
This means obtaining the needed manuals and reading them, thanks
to many the information is on line.

In short real hardware comes with real issues to solve and often
the interfaces and media are not at all modern PC like.  I'd add
anything you know about PCs is unlikely to be helpful at best and
can lead one down an unproductive path as PCs and most older non-PC
machines tend to not be similar (other than being a computer).

Allison

Re: Wanting to get my first classic computer

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Ray Jewhurst

> I would really like to get my own classic computer but I don't know
> where to begin.

Two questions you need to sort out in your mind, to decide, are i) do you
want something with a bit-mapped video screen, or are you happy with ASCII
serial line only, and ii) what are you prepared to do for mass storage.

E.g. if you really want video, you're probably looking at something like a
VAXStation or so; if ASCII will do you, a QBUS PDP-11 might be a good
start, as with patience eBay can yield a cheap chassis, CPU etc (although
in the last year or so the really cheap stuff seems to have dried up,
alas).

Noel

Re: Whose site is 9track.net?

[Evan Koblentz via cctalk]

It belongs to Matt Burke.  He is very active in the simh mailing list.

Thanks

CC users in Ireland

[Ronan Scaife via cctalk]

Dear All,

At 03:30 PM 17/06/2019 +0100, Ronan Scaife wrote:


Dear All,

I am particularly interested to make contact with Ireland-based
classic computer collectors or users.


on 18 June 2019, Guy Dunphy wrote:

Message: 8 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:34:11 +1000 From: Guy Dunphy 
 To: ronan.sca...@dcu.ie, "General Discussion: 
On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  Subject: Re: 
irish cctech subscribers Message-ID: 
<3.0.6.32.20190618093411.011ea...@mail.optusnet.com.au> Content-Type: 
text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Ronan, I know you meant 'in 
Ireland.' But I can't resist: I'm of Irish ancestry, though born and 
residing in Sydney Australia. Also "My particular interest is in DEC 
pdp-8 and pdp11 machines." Never thought I'd actually have any, until 
unexpected events of 2018 and ongoing. Now so far I have two PDP-8/S 
to restore ( http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm ) and two 
PDP-11: Rack 1: PDP 11/44 and one RLO2 diskpack drive. Rack 2: PDP 
11/34, two RLO2 diskpack drives, and one RK05 disk pack drive. Seems 
to be a complete, intact system. I have the side panels, various 
blanking panels, and assorted documentation. Still making arrangements 
for a long-term space to set them up and work on them. Regards, Guy 
Dunphy

My particular interest is in DEC pdp-8 and pdp11 machines.


Dear Guy,

good to hear from you!

My interest stems from the generosity of DEC Galway, Ireland, who helped 
start my (DSP, speech) research career
in the early 1980s with a generous donation of 2x 11/34s with RL02 and 
RX02.


I also have a MINC (laboratory instrumented 11/23) from Trinity College 
Dublin.


Quite recently, we acquired a pdp8/e (made in Galway) with RK05 and PC04 
from Dundalk Institute of Technology.


I haven't dared to power this up, but a few of my students have worked 
on a replica pdp8/e front panel patched


into a simh emulation on a PC.

I look forward to reading your blog.

My medium term plan is to interest the National Museum or equivalent in 
a section on (especially Irish-made)


technology, so the email was primarily addressed to people on the island 
of Ireland. However, most of what I


have learned over the years has been from guys around the world like you 
who are so generous with their


information.

Best Wishes,

Ronan Scaife

--


--
*

*Séanadh Ríomhphoist/Email Disclaimer*

*Tá an ríomhphost seo agus aon 
chomhad a sheoltar leis faoi rún agus is lena úsáid ag an seolaí agus sin 
amháin é. Is féidir tuilleadh a léamh anseo.  
*


*This e-mail and any 
files transmitted with it are confidential and are intended solely for use 
by the addressee. Read more here. 
*




*

--

  
 
 

Re: Wanting to get my first classic computer

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

those would work.  So where do I look besides e-Bay?  I see some available


Post wanted ad on craigslist. Wait, then they will come to you.

- Ethan

--
: Ethan O'Toole