RE: Schematic for DEC H7441 (not the H744!)

[Robert Armstrong via cctalk]

>Eric Smith  wrote:
>DEC MK11-B Field Maintenance Print Set, October 1977

  Thanks, Eric!  I was just about to post that I discovered it's also in the 
PDP-11/04 maintenance print on Bitsavers, although it's not in the 11/34 print 
- go figure...

  I didn't actually need the schematic, although I certainly used it this time. 
 The H7441 has a giant inductor (L1 in the schematic) that's physically bolted 
to the PCB.  It a U-channel thing that looks like a transformer but is actually 
just a big 30+ amp choke.  Some PCB layout guy decided it was a good idea to 
run the +5V output and ground traces directly under this choke so, unless it's 
elevated above the PCB, it will short the output!  I think it must have 
originally had some kind of rubber or fiber washers underneath it, but in mine 
the washers had disintegrated and were nowhere to be found.  I could tell that 
it was shorted somewhere, but I kept thinking that it must be a bad capacitor 
or a shorted crowbar, and I'm embarrassed to say that it took me more than an 
hour to figure out that it was the frame on the choke.  I carved up a rubber 
grommet with an X-acto to make some spacers and now it's as good as new.

Bob

Re: Schematic for DEC H7441 (not the H744!)

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

DEC MK11-B Field Maintenance Print Set, October 1977

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1170/MK11-B_Field_Maintenance_Print_Set_Oct77_part2.pdf

pages 27 to 36 of the PDF file

Was: PDP-8/A transformer hum Is: VXT-2000 stuff.

[Joseph Zatarski via cctalk]

On 6/9/2020 11:51 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:04 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
 wrote:

For the VXT-2000 with an H7109-B the rated voltage and current values
are printed right on the power supply label:

+5.1V, 7.81A
+12.1V, 0.62A
-12.1V, 0.46A
-9V, 0.2A

Fixed width character pinout diagram:

   +=+
   -9V | Yellow | Orange | +12.1V
   +++
   ??? | White  | Black  | Gnd
   +++
+5.1V | Red| Blue   | -12.1V
   +++
+5.1V | Red| Black  | Gnd
   +++
   Gnd | Black  | Black  | Gnd
   +=+

The mystery is the White wire. The power supply label only lists 4
output voltages. The White wire appears to be routed to the Ethernet
daughter board. The measured voltage appears that it might be floating
slightly negative, somewhere around -1.5V when the Ethernet daughter
board is installed and around -5V when it is removed. Maybe it is a
high impedance earth ground connection? It appears to be connected to
the shield of the Ethernet BNC, which measures around 1M-Ohm to the
chassis ground when the power supply is disconnected from the main
board, and around 0.75M-Ohm when the power supply is connected.

As long as we are talking VXT-2000, I have this on file, figure it would 
be useful for future googling of the list if
this were here as well.? May be a repeat of info from an earlier post, 
or maybe elsewhere.


I didn't save the source of the info, but looks like someone named Matt 
Millman did it.


The setup is as follows: HP Envy laptop running MOP boot daemon, 
connected to Lantronix LTX-C twisted pair
ethernet to AUI converter (not the same as a twisted pair MAU). This is 
then connected to a cabletron coax
MAU with a 10BASE5 vampire tap. The coax runs over to another MAU, which 
is connected via an AUI cable to
my VXT2000. I didn't think of it, but it would have been nice to have a 
real DEC MAU on the VXT2000, I've

got several DEC h4000's I could have used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5T2GlAN2N4

http://tech.mattmillman.com/projects/10base5/


The first link is mine actually. (Hi, I'm Joe from Joe's Vax Repair and 
More). I have a VXT-2000 and have had it setup and booting on a few 
occasions. I also happened into some 10BASE5 equipment a few years back 
and the VXT2000 was one of the only AUI devices I had at the time. I'm 
not Matt Millman, but I did reference that site to find the existence of 
the Lantronix LTX-C and similar devices.


Now that I have more AUI gear, I plan to put different gear on the 
3-node AUI segment (cisco 2511 router, media converter to 10BASE2, 
VAXStation 3200) and move the other 10Mb equipment to a 10BASE2 segment. 
The whole mess will be joined to the main network via T1 on a Kentrox 
CSU/DSU on the 2511.


You can boot the VXT2000 using MOP or BOOTP and TFTP actually. MOP was 
the first thing I managed to get working, but BOOTP and TFTP worked 
equally well once I had it set up correctly. Unfortunately my bootptab 
file is on a roommate's MicroVAX II...


Anyway, see the links section here for the software: 
https://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/DEC_VXT2000


There's also theoretically OpenBSD and NetBSD support for the VXT2000, 
but in my experience the netboot stuff is pretty broken on VAX for 
whatever reason. There's at least one bug for the SGEC ethernet chip 
driver, and I could only get older versions of the network boot mop file 
to load. Of course, the older versions wouldn't support the newer kernel 
format, which apparently changed at some point. Or maybe I'm just doing 
something wrong.


If the machine in question gets repaired, feel free to contact me with 
any questions. If you're familiar with netbooting VAX systems, it's not 
too hard to figure out though.


I'll add that the note about the 9V supply being isolated sounds 
reasonable. It could be used as the supply for the built-in 10BASE2 MAU 
on some units. I can't confirm as my unit has 10BASET instead which has 
no requirement for an isolated supply.

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Angel M Alganza via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 10:48:19AM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP.
In this group, I doubt that I am the only one.


I use Mutt.


Can we restrict to TEXT emails?


Yes please!

Cheers,
Ángel

Re: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Chris Elmquist via cctalk]

> On Jun 17, 2020, at 3:46 PM, Diane Bruce via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 01:41:39PM -0700, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote:
 I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP.
>>> 
>>> Barbarian!  At least upgrade to Alpine.  (That's what I use.) :D
>> 
>> Philistines, all of you. I use a hacked version of Elm.
> 
> mutt!

Ya! Exactly.  Woof.


cje

Re: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Chris Elmquist via cctalk]

> On Jun 17, 2020, at 3:43 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>>> I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP.
>> 
>> Barbarian!  At least upgrade to Alpine.  (That's what I use.) :D
> 
> Philistines, all of you. I use a hacked version of Elm.

And what’s wrong with Mutt?


I have yet to suffer a phishing attack with that.

Chris

Re: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu

[Chris Elmquist via cctalk]

And Lincoln had MN license plate “ETAOIN” on his rusted out Ford van and one of 
the other guys in our “wiz kid” bunch had “SHRDLU” on his plates.

We later learned that the Eta were some kind of Spanish terrorist group and so 
Neil liked that story better— we were going to terrorize the supercomputer 
world with this ETA-10.

cje
--
Chris Elmquist

> On Jun 17, 2020, at 3:28 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 6/17/20 12:25 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
>> https://archive.org/details/FarewellEtaoinShrdlu
>> 
>> 28min documentary on the last ever edition of the NY Times to be
>> printed using hot metal -- before they switched to what are now a
>> quite choice assortment of late-'70s minicomputers. I think I spotted
>> a PDP, a Data General and some IBM device, but I am no expert in this
>> era.
>> 
> 
> When I was in college, I went on a weekend trip with a friend to see
> where he worked during the summer.  It was a print-shop, complete with
> both letterpress and offset--and a Linotype ("pot" heated with natural
> gas).  The local advertising circular was still set with hot type and I
> witnessed the operation of that contraption.  Noisy and wonderful.
> 
> See the Twilight Zone episode "Printer's Devil" for another sample.
> 
> I was told that most newspaper pressmen were alcoholics, as it blunted
> the effect of the then-toxic inks used in printing.
> 
> Anent ETAOIN:  Early on in the formation of the CDC spinoff, ETA
> Systems, I asked Neil Lincoln what "ETA" stood for.  He related the
> story of his son and ETAOIN SHRDLU.  Back then, the name of the
> supercomputer was referred to as the GF-10; later changed to the ETA-10.
> 
> (GF standing for GigaFLOP).
> 
> --Chuck
> 

CSPI SC-3XL and SC-4XL documentation?

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

I've just come into a couple of CSPI VME cards, an SC-3XL and an SC-4XL (both 
with attached memory), and I was wondering if anyone has documentation.

They're based on the Intel i860 and intended for VME-based array processors.

  -- Chris

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Thu, 18 Jun 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:

If we do implement attachments that are limited to one SSDD 8" disk, can
there please be some technological way of chaining disk 'parts' to allow
larger attachments to be transmitted?


If you use MS-DOS, and have a large drive in addition to the 8" SSSD, you 
could type:

COPY file1 + file2 + file3 + file4 + file5 bigfile

Many Backup/Restore programs have capability of splitting and recombining 
files.


OR
have a CCTALK "files" storage area (maybe on a website?), that could host 
large files, and include LINKS, not CONTENT, in the emails.

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[ben via cctalk]

On 6/17/2020 4:44 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:


If we do implement attachments that are limited to one SSDD 8" disk, can
there please be some technological way of chaining disk 'parts' to allow
larger attachments to be transmitted?


I am not turning my computer over, just to use the other side
of a 8" floppy. Ben.

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Rich Kulawiec via cctalk]

I'd be happy to host the list at firemountain.net, where a Mailman 2.X
instance has been happily running a few dozen public and private lists for
15-ish years (majordomo before that) (homebrew scripts before that).
No charge, no ads.

If the archives are available in mbox format (or something that can
be massaged into mbox format) I can import all of those.

I would also suggest that -- to future-proof this -- that multiple
people stash those archives and stash future archives as they accrue.
Given archives and a subscriber list, a mailing list can be reconstituted
anywhere.

Merging lists: if the consensus is that it should be done, I can
do that.  (Whether that means the subscriber lists, the archives, or both.)

Attachments: that's also do-able if consensus indicates but I recommend
that they be limited to open formats, because delivering messages with
proprietary attachments is a quagmire even if all the recipients want
them. (long explanation omitted)  Many years of experience indicate
that doing this and imposing a soft large-but-finite maximum message
size facilitates communication without overwhelming people.

And since someone will ask: I use mutt.

---rsk

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Doug Jackson via cctalk]

I gave up on hosting my own email years ago when I was the recipient of
tens of thousands of spam messages per day, both to this and my business
email address.  I now simply use gmail to handle email - seems like the G
beast has seen every bit of spam before, so the spam transfer rate is
approximating zero.

All of the old mailing lists I use are on groups.io -   I actually don't
log into their platform, instead they send me updates as messages.  These
often contain attachments, which don't bother me, as its using google mail
storage to store, and unless its interesting, I don't bother copying it
into my world.  That way, complete disk images can be sent and I don't mind.

Using a glass screen VDU with a mouse, means that the sparse, and expensive
to obtain paper for the TTY is not adversely used when somebody top or
bottom or sideways posts.   And I can even catch up on email while I am
using my phone in the bus.

If we do implement attachments that are limited to one SSDD 8" disk, can
there please be some technological way of chaining disk 'parts' to allow
larger attachments to be transmitted?

Kindest regards,

Doug Jackson

em: d...@doughq.com
ph: 0414 986878

Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com
Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net

---

Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted
with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for
your own use.

Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have
been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard - for this I apologise in
advance - It's ok bec we don* nee* accu tex* to unde** actu**
mean***.

Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the
imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or
moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the
result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which
case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal
liability. :-)

Be nice to your parents.

Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, Setup a
radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you
happy.





On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 7:49 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> We use groups,io for the tom swift discussion group real handy to post
> photos, files and etc..
> On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 Chris Hanson via cctalk <
> cmhan...@eschatologist.net; cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On Jun 17, 2020, at 1:50 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >
>  There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features compared
> to
> >
> > Please please, no groups of any kinds. They're all horrible to use.
>
> Do you mean "web forum" where you say "groups?"
>
> > A
> > genuine mailing list like this is infinitively easier to keep track of
> > and read at leisure. Can't stand groups.io.
>
> I've found the groups.io  mailing list mode to be
> perfectly reasonable for a number of groups I'm a part of. And it has a
> forum-like front end for people who insist on doing everything through a
> web page.
>
>   -- Chris
>

Re: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu

[Justin Goldberg via cctalk]

Kind of OT:

I recall reading on some health forum that in a certain Japanese paint
factory, workers would put dried paint flakes under their tongues and then
spit them out, a-la homeopathically, to make them impervious to the
chemicals. It is believed to work by sending a signal to the gut "to
prepare for this chemical". Not sure if it would have worked on inks but it
may have.

Justin Goldberg

https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinpaulgoldberg


On Wed, Jun 17, 2020, 4:27 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 6/17/20 12:25 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> > https://archive.org/details/FarewellEtaoinShrdlu
> >
> >  28min documentary on the last ever edition of the NY Times to be
> > printed using hot metal -- before they switched to what are now a
> > quite choice assortment of late-'70s minicomputers. I think I spotted
> > a PDP, a Data General and some IBM device, but I am no expert in this
> > era.
> >
>
> When I was in college, I went on a weekend trip with a friend to see
> where he worked during the summer.  It was a print-shop, complete with
> both letterpress and offset--and a Linotype ("pot" heated with natural
> gas).  The local advertising circular was still set with hot type and I
> witnessed the operation of that contraption.  Noisy and wonderful.
>
> See the Twilight Zone episode "Printer's Devil" for another sample.
>
> I was told that most newspaper pressmen were alcoholics, as it blunted
> the effect of the then-toxic inks used in printing.
>
> Anent ETAOIN:  Early on in the formation of the CDC spinoff, ETA
> Systems, I asked Neil Lincoln what "ETA" stood for.  He related the
> story of his son and ETAOIN SHRDLU.  Back then, the name of the
> supercomputer was referred to as the GF-10; later changed to the ETA-10.
>
> (GF standing for GigaFLOP).
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

RE: Attachments

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of ben via cctalk
> Sent: 17 June 2020 21:39
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Attachments
> 
> On 6/17/2020 11:53 AM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 6/17/20 10:44 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >> If we remove the restriction on attachments, can we at least set a
> >> size limit?   I dislike multi-MB attachments.
> >
> > Or do as some other lists do and simply scrub the attachment and
> > substitute a URL to where the attachment can be found.  Otherwise I
> > suppose I number in the "If it needs to move, groups.io seems the
> > least horrible place to go" camp.
> >
> The question is what attachments are needed to send for this list?
> Ben.

Easy, pictures of unidentified components, sending out schematics that have 
been reverse engineered, documentation, pictures of scope traces when trying to 
find a fault, all sorts. I would agree on a size limit though.

Regards

Rob

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

We use groups,io for the tom swift discussion group real handy to post photos, 
files and etc..
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 Chris Hanson via cctalk 
 wrote:
On Jun 17, 2020, at 1:50 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
 There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features compared to
> 
> Please please, no groups of any kinds. They're all horrible to use.

Do you mean "web forum" where you say "groups?"

> A
> genuine mailing list like this is infinitively easier to keep track of
> and read at leisure. Can't stand groups.io.

I've found the groups.io  mailing list mode to be perfectly 
reasonable for a number of groups I'm a part of. And it has a forum-like front 
end for people who insist on doing everything through a web page.

  -- Chris

Re: Amiga Vendors?

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

I guess so, too. Connecting Amiga to plasma was probably the least
hassle of all alternatives. PC would need something special (either
card or converter?), and a hard drive, and a big box, and separate
keyboard and reboot every four(ty) days - Amiga 500 could be just
"stuffed under the rug". And after loading a "demo" from a floppy,
there was no moving parts involved. It could just sit there and
display flying images for years.


Exactly. Maybe once a week, turn it off, put in the new floppy from
HQ, turn it back on, or something like that.


The early plasma TVs usually had BNC RGBHV inputs and such. They could 
take VGA in very easily. I'm pretty sure a PC would have been way easier 
to deal with and could reach much higher resolutions... without needing a 
DB-23 connector :-)


- Ethan

--
: Ethan O'Toole

Re: IBM vacuum tubes

[Paul McJones via cctalk]

Not exactly on subject, but problems designing the IBM 604 Electronic 
Calculating Punch due to the use of existing vacuum tube designs is discussed 
in section 2.4 of:

Charles J.  Bashe, Lyle R. Johnson, John H. Palmer, and Emerson W. Pugh
IBM’s Early Computers
The MIT Press, 1986

The book says Ralph Palmer set up a vacuum tube laboratory with the ability to 
manufacture small quantities of tubes. This helped them get credibility when 
they went to a vacuum tube manufacturer with a request for a design change to 
achieve the needed reliability for digital applications.

Schematic for DEC H7441 (not the H744!)

[Robert Armstrong via cctalk]

  Is there a schematic for the H7441 regulator anywhere?  There are several
out there for the H744 but, although they are plug compatible, the H7441 is
totally different.   The H744 uses an LM723, but in the 7441 DEC appears to
have rolled their own regulator using a bunch discrete parts and opamps.

 

Bob

 

  

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Jun 17, 2020, at 10:48 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, ED SHARPE @ AOHell.com via cctalk wrote:
>> These 2 have my vote as well
>> I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore!
>> 
>>> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on 
>>> attachments.
>>> Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well.
> 
> I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP.
> 
> In this group, I doubt that I am the only one.
> 
> 
> Can we restrict to TEXT emails?

Why?

Pine/Alpine should show the text portion of any multipart messages perfectly 
reasonably, and not even attempt to download non-text MIME content from your 
IMAP server. Crispin designed the application and the protocol that way 
intentionally; his approach was always that you should be able to run your MUA 
locally with just a 2400bps link to your IMAP server, and get perfectly 
reasonable performance.

  -- Chris

Re: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Cameron Kaiser via cctalk]

> > > > > I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP.
> > > >
> > > > Barbarian!  At least upgrade to Alpine.  (That's what I use.) :D
> > >
> > > Philistines, all of you. I use a hacked version of Elm.
> >
> > mutt!
> 
> `less`, out of system spool.

tail -f $MAIL

But seriously, written in Elm. I think there are a lot of text terminal
mailers on this list.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Test-tube babies shouldn't throw stones. ---

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Jun 17, 2020, at 1:50 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
 There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features compared to
> 
> Please please, no groups of any kinds. They're all horrible to use.

Do you mean "web forum" where you say "groups?"

> A
> genuine mailing list like this is infinitively easier to keep track of
> and read at leisure. Can't stand groups.io.

I've found the groups.io  mailing list mode to be perfectly 
reasonable for a number of groups I'm a part of. And it has a forum-like front 
end for people who insist on doing everything through a web page.

  -- Chris

Re: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Mark Linimon via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 04:44:26PM -0400, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote:
> mutt!

+1

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Jun 16, 2020, at 10:23 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Jon Elson wrote:
>> Yes, several other groups I read and contribute to have moved to
>> groups.io, and they are working quite well and reliably.  Some options
>> require $10 a month to be free from ads.
> 
> That's a red flag.

Being able to pay a service not to show ads on their web site shows that 
they're willing to say "no" to advertisers, which is pretty much the opposite 
of a red flag to me.

  -- Chris

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech - text encoding

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Although I am using a larger drive, I would prefer that we not have any 
messages that wouldn't be possible to fit on an 8" SSSD disk.


On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, ben via cctalk wrote:

Does that include the TAG LINE?
I am happy just to have ASCII text, and trimmed messages.
Does this mailing list have people using EBCDIC for example?
What would be useful is a way to transfer things like paper tape
or punch card deck.


What I would like to see, is an available FILES web location, where people 
could put their "please ID this" pictures, and other worthwhile files.

But, links, NOT content, sent out in the email!
If there is enough cheap space, maybe even stuff like the GWBASIC stuff.
Q: is the original Microsoft BASIC paper tape released from copyright, 
yet?



Once the plain text rule is lifted, we are likely to also no longer get 
ANY trimming of messages, and every post will include everything that ever 
came before.  All the way back to THIS.

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 at 19:04, ED SHARPE via cctalk
 wrote:

> I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore!

Several of my colleagues at a Prominent German Linux Distributor use
Mutt/Neomutt. I don't, I am on Thunderbird and rather like it.

-- 
Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

Re: Amiga Vendors?

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 at 02:15, Tomasz Rola via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> I would say that was cool.

Me too! :-)

> I guess so, too. Connecting Amiga to plasma was probably the least
> hassle of all alternatives. PC would need something special (either
> card or converter?), and a hard drive, and a big box, and separate
> keyboard and reboot every four(ty) days - Amiga 500 could be just
> "stuffed under the rug". And after loading a "demo" from a floppy,
> there was no moving parts involved. It could just sit there and
> display flying images for years.

Exactly. Maybe once a week, turn it off, put in the new floppy from
HQ, turn it back on, or something like that.

-- 
Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech - text encoding

[ben via cctalk]

On 6/17/2020 2:35 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

Although I am using a larger drive, I would prefer that we not have any 
messages that wouldn't be possible to fit on an 8" SSSD disk.



Does that include the TAG LINE?
I am happy just to have ASCII text, and trimmed messages.
Does this mailing list have people using EBCDIC for example?
What would be useful is a way to transfer things like paper tape
or punch card deck.
Ben.

Re: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Dennis Boone via cctalk]

 > > > > I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP.

 > > > Barbarian!  At least upgrade to Alpine.  (That's what I use.) :D

 > > Philistines, all of you. I use a hacked version of Elm.

 > mutt!

`less`, out of system spool.

De

Re: MUA again [was: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech]

[Diane Bruce via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 09:39:41PM +0200, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 07:24:40PM +, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:
> > 
> > Use modern email program that sees expanded char. Sets and
...
> 
> Besides, once the html or any other non-pure text format takes over,
> everybody will be receiving messages sized in megabytes if not worse,
> whose human-readable content would be only few lines of text. Just
> like modern web.

Happened with Meetup FWIW they have no plain text option
and it's annoying.


-- 
- d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db

Re: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Diane Bruce via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 01:41:39PM -0700, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote:
> > > I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP.
> >
> > Barbarian!  At least upgrade to Alpine.  (That's what I use.) :D
> 
> Philistines, all of you. I use a hacked version of Elm.

mutt!

> -- 
>  personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ 
> --
>   Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
> -- Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. -- Napoleon 
> 

-- 
- d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db

mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Cameron Kaiser via cctalk]

> > I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP.
>
> Barbarian!  At least upgrade to Alpine.  (That's what I use.) :D

Philistines, all of you. I use a hacked version of Elm.

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. -- Napoleon 

Re: Attachments

[ben via cctalk]

On 6/17/2020 11:53 AM, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote:



On 6/17/20 10:44 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


If we remove the restriction on attachments, can we at least set a size
limit?   I dislike multi-MB attachments.


Or do as some other lists do and simply scrub the attachment and
substitute a URL to where the attachment can be found.  Otherwise I
suppose I number in the "If it needs to move, groups.io seems the least
horrible place to go" camp.


The question is what attachments are needed to send for this list?
Ben.

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

They take up a lot of space.


On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:

Well, there is some circa 2005 thinking.


2005 was only 15 years ago.

Some of us have pre-Y2K thinking.

Have we finally gotten rid of discussion of a "ten year rule"/"twenty 
year rule"?

Is there ANYTHING classic post millenium?


Although I am using a larger drive, I would prefer that we not have any 
messages that wouldn't be possible to fit on an 8" SSSD disk.

RE: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure

mailing list?



The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on
attachments.

On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:

They take up a lot of space.


FREE mail lists on groups.io have a size limit.  I don't think that it is 
a very strenuous limit.
BUT, larger volume, such as ATTACHMENTS, bumps it into having to pay a 
subscription fee.

Re: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Jun 17, 2020, at 3:25 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> https://archive.org/details/FarewellEtaoinShrdlu
> 
> 28min documentary on the last ever edition of the NY Times to be
> printed using hot metal -- before they switched to what are now a
> quite choice assortment of late-'70s minicomputers. I think I spotted
> a PDP, a Data General and some IBM device, but I am no expert in this
> era.
> 
> As a veteran reader of Fredric Brown, especially "the Enchanted
> Linotype", I have been using ETAOIN SHRDLU to win at Hangman for many
> years... but I'd never seen one working before. It all still seems
> like magic to me. 

They should be fairly easy to find in printing musea. 

There is a pretty detailed description on Wikipedia, with a number of diagrams 
and photos from a Linotype handbook published by the company in the 1940s.  It 
also has links to a pair of training movies that show, section by section, how 
one of these machines works.  Actually, it shows the Intertype, but that's just 
a Linotype clone made by a lesser-known competitor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linotype_machine#External_links

Look for "Typesetting: Linotype vocational instruction film".

paul

Re: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 6/17/20 12:25 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> https://archive.org/details/FarewellEtaoinShrdlu
> 
>  28min documentary on the last ever edition of the NY Times to be
> printed using hot metal -- before they switched to what are now a
> quite choice assortment of late-'70s minicomputers. I think I spotted
> a PDP, a Data General and some IBM device, but I am no expert in this
> era.
> 

When I was in college, I went on a weekend trip with a friend to see
where he worked during the summer.  It was a print-shop, complete with
both letterpress and offset--and a Linotype ("pot" heated with natural
gas).  The local advertising circular was still set with hot type and I
witnessed the operation of that contraption.  Noisy and wonderful.

See the Twilight Zone episode "Printer's Devil" for another sample.

I was told that most newspaper pressmen were alcoholics, as it blunted
the effect of the then-toxic inks used in printing.

Anent ETAOIN:  Early on in the formation of the CDC spinoff, ETA
Systems, I asked Neil Lincoln what "ETA" stood for.  He related the
story of his son and ETAOIN SHRDLU.  Back then, the name of the
supercomputer was referred to as the GF-10; later changed to the ETA-10.

(GF standing for GigaFLOP).

--Chuck

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> They take up a lot of space.

Well, there is some circa 2005 thinking.

--
Will

RE: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Al Kossow via
> cctalk
> Sent: 17 June 2020 13:55
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech
> 
> > I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure
> mailing list?
> 
> Like all of the webby time-wasters, they don't have easy to mirror zipped
> archives, because they want to to spend time hovering around clicking on
> their sites.
> 

As there are no adverts on their site, why would they want you clicking around 
on the site? That uses resource and costs them money.
It was primarily envisaged as a mail service. The web side was added because 
some folks wanted it.
As a group owner I can download zipped archives of all content.
The ability for members to download the message archive as a zipped file is 
configurable by the list owner.

> 
> http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/
> 
> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on
> attachments.
> 

They take up a lot of space.

> Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well.
> 

I think thats pretty irrelevant .

Dave

Re: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 at 21:59, Bill Degnan  wrote:
>
> Liam,
> I rescued a Linotype and gave it to Bob Roswell for his museum in Hunt 
> Valley, MD USA...should you ever be in the Washington/Baltimore area.  
> Syssrc.com is the URL and the museum is housed within their consulting and 
> training facility.

Actually, I have a good friend in Baltimore whom I've never met F2G.
We hope to visit each other one of these days. I will try. Thanks!

BTW, I found the Fredric Brown short story:
https://www.you-books.com/book/F-Brown/Etaoin-Shrdlu



-- 
Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

Re: Ancient transistor ?computer board

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Tue, 16 Jun 2020 at 21:29, Fred Cisin  wrote:
>
> Q: Is that link adequate to unambiguously identify any specific location
> within any sub-atomic particle in the universe?  (such as far more
> detail than is required for the PHYSICAL LOCATION of the start of the file??)

It's simple. All we have to do is use Godelization.

http://kasmana.people.cofc.edu/MATHFICT/mfview.php?callnumber=mf1033

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/451203.Starburst

As you may remember, I used to live in Brno -- the city where Kurt
Gödel was born. Sadly they do not commemorate him. I think he's too
obscure. Gregor Mendel, yes; my doctor's office was on Mendelova
Namesti, Mendel Square. I went to the Mendel musem. Janaček gets a
theatre. All the others are only famous if you're Czech. But poor
Gödel, one of the 20th century's greatest mathematicians -- nothing.


--
Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

"Modern" computer science (Was: MUA again [was: Future of cctalk/cctech]

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Use modern email program that sees expanded char. Sets and
graphics it is a brand new world !    I love old hardware to
look at but if communicating  I like  the ability to see graphical 
things...  and I think tell majority of people like  images of
things..   Ed#


On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:

In case of graphical MUA with graphical messages in them, I am of
opinion they open doors to various things and the majority happily
sees nothing.

Besides, once the html or any other non-pure text format takes over,
everybody will be receiving messages sized in megabytes if not worse,
whose human-readable content would be only few lines of text. Just
like modern web.



Those few lines of text might only be human-readable after OCR processing.


College administrators:
At the college, we had one administrator who insisted that compliance with 
the state mandates for community college curricula of "computer literacy" 
and "information competency" were already met.


He wrote a two line memo announcing a room change for a meeting.
He did it in a "feature rich" word processor,
then he printed it on a color printer,
then he scanned that piece of paper,
and then he attached that scanned graphic image to an email
with SUBJECT: "For your information",
and message text of "See the attachment".

He vetoed my proposal to create a beginning course in Information Science, 
on the grounds that one of the local universities taught something that he 
considered to be the same, as a GRADUATE course, and "therefore, it would 
be ILLEGAL for the community college to teach it."


One of our COBOL teachers got a gig at one of the local universities, and 
COPIED OUR COBOL class (the authors of the textbook, Jack Olson and Wil 
Price, were in our faculty) to be taught in the graduate school there. 
Our administrator said that it would be ILLEGAL for us to continue 
teaching it!




--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 3:26 PM Liam Proven via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> https://archive.org/details/FarewellEtaoinShrdlu
>
>  28min documentary on the last ever edition of the NY Times to be
> printed using hot metal -- before they switched to what are now a
> quite choice assortment of late-'70s minicomputers. I think I spotted
> a PDP, a Data General and some IBM device, but I am no expert in this
> era.
>
> As a veteran reader of Fredric Brown, especially "the Enchanted
> Linotype", I have been using ETAOIN SHRDLU to win at Hangman for many
> years... but I'd never seen one working before. It all still seems
> like magic to me. I've worked in the magazine industry so I should
> know more about this stuff, but I never worked at the repro end of
> things...
>
>
>
Liam,
I rescued a Linotype and gave it to Bob Roswell for his museum in Hunt
Valley, MD USA...should you ever be in the Washington/Baltimore area.
Syssrc.com is the URL and the museum is housed within their consulting and
training facility.
Bill

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Curious Marc via cctalk]

> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on 
> attachments.

> Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well.

 

Amen on that. The first one in particular. As simple as that and you’ve gotten 
yourself a very functional yet efficient system.

Marc

 

MUA again [was: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech]

[Tomasz Rola via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 07:24:40PM +, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:
> 
> Use modern email program that sees expanded char. Sets and
> graphics it is a brand new world !    I love old hardware to
> look at but if communicating  I like  the ability to see graphical 
> things...  and I think tell majority of people like  images of
> things..   Ed#

In case of graphical MUA with graphical messages in them, I am of
opinion they open doors to various things and the majority happily
sees nothing.

Besides, once the html or any other non-pure text format takes over,
everybody will be receiving messages sized in megabytes if not worse,
whose human-readable content would be only few lines of text. Just
like modern web.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

Farewell Etaoin Shrdlu

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

https://archive.org/details/FarewellEtaoinShrdlu

 28min documentary on the last ever edition of the NY Times to be
printed using hot metal -- before they switched to what are now a
quite choice assortment of late-'70s minicomputers. I think I spotted
a PDP, a Data General and some IBM device, but I am no expert in this
era.

As a veteran reader of Fredric Brown, especially "the Enchanted
Linotype", I have been using ETAOIN SHRDLU to win at Hangman for many
years... but I'd never seen one working before. It all still seems
like magic to me. I've worked in the magazine industry so I should
know more about this stuff, but I never worked at the repro end of
things...

-- 
Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Tomasz Rola via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 07:28:22PM +0200, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> 
> I concur. And I also would like to mention a simple, easily navigable
> web interface to list archives, which works well in text based
> browser. Just like the current one. Having such interface is a huge
> plus for me. It allows both access to single threads, message by
> message, and getting full mbox for more sophisticated processing (in
> theory at least, since I have no such needs yet).

As an afterthought, no such mailing list as cctalk/tech would still be
much worse than anything which can put content into my mailbox, be it
gog, io or nntp via some client saving it to disk in a format parsable
via textual MUA (I used to use elm, then pine, now I use mutt, not
perfect but very useful).

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

RE: Future of cctalk/cctech

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

Use modern email program that sees expanded char. Sets and graphics it is a 
brand new world !    I love old hardware to look at but if communicating  I 
like  the ability to see graphical  things...  and I think tell majority of 
people like  images of things..   Ed#
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 Fred Cisin via cctalk  wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, ED SHARPE @ AOHell.com via cctalk wrote:
> These 2 have my vote as well
> I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore!
>
>> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on 
>> attachments.
>> Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well.

I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP.

In this group, I doubt that I am the only one.


Can we restrict to TEXT emails?

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred            ci...@xenosoft.com

RE: Future of cctalk/cctech

[geneb via cctalk]

On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP.


Barbarian!  At least upgrade to Alpine.  (That's what I use.) :D

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Attachments (was: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech)

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

If we remove the restriction on attachments, can we at least set a size
limit?   I dislike multi-MB attachments.


On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote:

Or do as some other lists do and simply scrub the attachment and
substitute a URL to where the attachment can be found.  Otherwise I
suppose I number in the "If it needs to move, groups.io seems the least
horrible place to go" camp.


"least horrible" seems like a good way to phrase it!

On lists where the participants are not computer literate, groups.io 
is/was the logical place to go when the Yahoos made them homeless.
They weren't even aware of the meaning or the Jonathan Swift origin when 
they named their company, and it didn't even occur to them to do a search 
to find out!



There are people HERE who could probably do a better job, or at 
least one more specifically customized to what WE want.
But, we need to be very careful to select a host with adequate resources, 
AND stability, not just "I'll have plenty of time to manage it all summer 
long."  We are looking for DECADES, not months or years.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

RE: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

These 2 have my vote as well
I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore!


/me raises hand! Alpine 

It's super fast to delete things. I run it under screen on a host I have 
co-lo'ed at a tier 1 datacenter. 25 years now?


- Ethan


--
: Ethan O'Toole

Attachments (was: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech)

[Christian Kennedy via cctalk]

On 6/17/20 10:44 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> If we remove the restriction on attachments, can we at least set a size
> limit?   I dislike multi-MB attachments.

Or do as some other lists do and simply scrub the attachment and
substitute a URL to where the attachment can be found.  Otherwise I
suppose I number in the "If it needs to move, groups.io seems the least
horrible place to go" camp.

-- 
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
ch...@mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB0692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.comPGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…"

RE: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, ED SHARPE @ AOHell.com via cctalk wrote:

These 2 have my vote as well
I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore!


The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on attachments.
Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well.


I read this list on PINE, on a shell account at my ISP.

In this group, I doubt that I am the only one.


Can we restrict to TEXT emails?

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on
attachments.

Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well.


If we remove the restriction on attachments, can we at least set a size 
limit?   I dislike multi-MB attachments.

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Tomasz Rola via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 02:45:42PM +0100, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Al Kossow via
> > cctalk
> > Sent: 17 June 2020 13:55
> > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> > Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a
> > pure mailing list?
> > 
> > Like all of the webby time-wasters, they don't have easy to mirror
> > zipped archives, because they want to to spend time hovering
> > around clicking on their sites.
> > 
> > 
> > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/
> > 
> > 
> > The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on
> > attachments.
> > 
> > Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well.
> 
> I would agree with both of those too.
> 
> Rob

I concur. And I also would like to mention a simple, easily navigable
web interface to list archives, which works well in text based
browser. Just like the current one. Having such interface is a huge
plus for me. It allows both access to single threads, message by
message, and getting full mbox for more sophisticated processing (in
theory at least, since I have no such needs yet).

"Modern" interfaces, while touting their bestness, are about removing
as much power from end user as possible, IMHO.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

Re: IBM vacuum tubes

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> Ah, good ol' 5965s.
>
> These were a higher-spec version of ... some really common tube which I
> no longer remember.  The Bendix G-15 was wholly based on them.

5965 is a computer rated 12AV7 with better balanced cutoff
characteristics, but generally worse for noise.

About 15 percent of the tubes in a G15 are 6197s, which are computer
rated 6CL6s.

--
Will

Re: IBM vacuum tubes

[Mark Linimon via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 05:14:11PM +, Mark Linimon via cctech wrote:
> These were a higher-spec version of ... some really common tube which I
> no longer remember.

And which was mentioned in the original post -- oops!

mcl

Re: IBM vacuum tubes

[Mark Linimon via cctalk]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 07:58:14AM -0700, Guy N. via cctech wrote:
> the part number (5965 or 5963)

Ah, good ol' 5965s.

These were a higher-spec version of ... some really common tube which I
no longer remember.  The Bendix G-15 was wholly based on them.  I probably
have one or two around the house since I kept one-of-each of the plug-in
cards when my high school scrapped it.  (It would have been too heavy
even for *me* to haul around all these years.)

I still have the technical manual, complete with the FE's hand-written
annotations.

mcl

RE: Future of cctalk/cctech

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

These 2 have my vote as well
I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore!

> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on 
> attachments.
>
> Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well.
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 Rob Jarratt via cctalk  wrote:
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Al Kossow via
> cctalk
> Sent: 17 June 2020 13:55
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech
> 
> 
> 
> > I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure 
> > mailing
> list?
> 
> Like all of the webby time-wasters, they don't have easy to mirror zipped
> archives, because they want to to spend time hovering around clicking on their
> sites.
> 
> 
> http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/
> 
> 
> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on 
> attachments.
> 
> Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well.

I would agree with both of those too.

Rob

RE: Future of cctalk/cctech

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

These 2 have my vote as well
I do not know, anyone using a text only mail reader anymore!

> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on 
> attachments.
>
> Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well.
On Wednesday, June 17, 2020 Rob Jarratt via cctalk  wrote:
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Al Kossow via
> cctalk
> Sent: 17 June 2020 13:55
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech
> 
> 
> 
> > I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure 
> > mailing
> list?
> 
> Like all of the webby time-wasters, they don't have easy to mirror zipped
> archives, because they want to to spend time hovering around clicking on their
> sites.
> 
> 
> http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/
> 
> 
> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on 
> attachments.
> 
> Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well.

I would agree with both of those too.

Rob

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jun 17, 2020, at 8:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> On 6/17/20 7:46 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
>> I'm most puzzled by the eager hosting volunteers who'd volunteer even before
>> they have a full understanding of the job. 
> 
> The list is also something that has existed and will likely exist for decades,
> which is another reason not to trust an entity who gives you something for
> free on the web

Early 1997, which brings up a question.  Is there a complete archive online 
anywhere?  The one archive I was using recently to look for some of my posts 
didn’t go back to the ’97 to 2000 period I needed.

Zane

Re: IBM vacuum tubes

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

They are indeed GEs! 188 is the clue.

--
Will

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 11:14 AM Guy N. via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2020-06-16 at 11:04 -0400, William Donzelli wrote:
> > > Good question.  They have an IBM logo and "Made in USA", along with the
> > > part number (5965 or 5963) and a bunch of numbers that might give a hint
> > > as to manufacturer.  Any suggestions on how to decode them?
> >
> > What are the numbers?
> >
> > Details, man!
>
> Sure!  I'd attach a picture, but
>
> On the top of the tubes are numbers printed in yellow.  A couple typical
> ones are C392 and C152.
>
> On the side, the large IBM logo is flanked by groups of numbers, an
> example:
>
> 62-39  64-17   IBM 317261
>188-5  MADE IN U.S.A.
>
> This is one of the more legible ones.  The two pairs of numbers on the
> first line at the left appear to vary, the 188-5 and 317261 seem to be
> constant; but it's hard to be certain.
>
> The obvious part number 5965 has some other markings that are
> overprinted by the IBM logo and numbers.  It looks like it could be:
>
>5965
> A
>U.S.A
> ..
> ..
>
> The pattern of dots is hard to make out because of "IBM" on top of it.
>
> The structure inside is a "long-plate" type, with three horizontal ribs.
> I haven't had a chance to compare the structure to any of the many old
> dual-triode, medium-mu tubes in my assortment.  There might be some
> clues.  It wouldn't surprise me if these were a fairly standard design
> with some changes to the cathode to withstand being held in cutoff for
> long periods of time.
>

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 6/17/20 7:46 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:


I'm most puzzled by the eager hosting volunteers who'd volunteer even before
they have a full understanding of the job. 


The list is also something that has existed and will likely exist for decades,
which is another reason not to trust an entity who gives you something for
free on the web

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[emanuel stiebler via cctalk]

On 2020-06-17 10:46, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
> 
> I'm most puzzled by the eager hosting volunteers who'd volunteer even before
> they have a full understanding of the job.  Wouldn't you want to know
> how much time it might take you to administer the list, how much 
> bandwidth it eats, storage, format of the archives, etc.?

Please don't spoil this discussion with details and facts ;-)

Re: IBM vacuum tubes

[Guy N. via cctalk]

On Tue, 2020-06-16 at 11:04 -0400, William Donzelli wrote:
> > Good question.  They have an IBM logo and "Made in USA", along with the
> > part number (5965 or 5963) and a bunch of numbers that might give a hint
> > as to manufacturer.  Any suggestions on how to decode them?
> 
> What are the numbers?
> 
> Details, man!

Sure!  I'd attach a picture, but

On the top of the tubes are numbers printed in yellow.  A couple typical
ones are C392 and C152.

On the side, the large IBM logo is flanked by groups of numbers, an
example:

62-39  64-17   IBM 317261
   188-5  MADE IN U.S.A.

This is one of the more legible ones.  The two pairs of numbers on the
first line at the left appear to vary, the 188-5 and 317261 seem to be
constant; but it's hard to be certain.

The obvious part number 5965 has some other markings that are
overprinted by the IBM logo and numbers.  It looks like it could be:

   5965
A
   U.S.A
..
..

The pattern of dots is hard to make out because of "IBM" on top of it.

The structure inside is a "long-plate" type, with three horizontal ribs.
I haven't had a chance to compare the structure to any of the many old
dual-triode, medium-mu tubes in my assortment.  There might be some
clues.  It wouldn't surprise me if these were a fairly standard design
with some changes to the cathode to withstand being held in cutoff for
long periods of time.

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[John Foust via cctalk]

I'm most puzzled by the eager hosting volunteers who'd volunteer even before
they have a full understanding of the job.  Wouldn't you want to know
how much time it might take you to administer the list, how much 
bandwidth it eats, storage, format of the archives, etc.?

- John

Re: Duplicate messages

[Anke Stüber via cctalk]

Hi,

On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 11:40:34AM +0200, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote:
> I think you might be subscribed to both cctalk and cctech.

I have never subscribed to the cctech list myself, yet I receive mail
via both lists. I have requested a password reminder mail on the cctech
member options page and tried to unsubscribe, but never got mail from
mailman. When I request my password for the cctalk list I get a mail,
and when I log in and list my other subscriptions the only one that
shows up is cctalk. How do I unsubscribe from cctech?

Best, Anke

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 06/17/2020 03:50 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote:

There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features compared to

Please please, no groups of any kinds. They're all horrible to use. A
genuine mailing list like this is infinitively easier to keep track of
and read at leisure. Can't stand groups.io. Despise google groups
(always overlaying everything with an insistent suggestion to
translate.. hopeless to navigate if you've been away for a while..
Yahoo, don't mention yahoo. They're all pure junk.

Well, we have moved the Atlas-Craftsman lathe group from 
Yahoo to groups.io last year, and almost everybody uses it 
as a mail reflector.  I have hardly ever signed on to the 
web portal of the thing, except maybe when I initially joined.


Jon

Re: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973

[dwight via cctalk]

It was also clear at the time for Intel that the Japanese 4116s had 10 times 
better ppm failure rates then the US made parts and they were cheaper. If it 
wasn't for EPROMs, Intel might have folded then and 8080s were just taking off. 
I suspect if Motorola had gotten their act together, it might be a different 
place today.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk 
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 6:22 PM
To: Nigel Johnson via cctalk 
Subject: Re: Unknown Intel blinkenlight panel circa 1973

On 6/16/20 5:17 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:
> I remember that shortage of memory chips. People in my office were all
> blaming it the Ayatollah Khomeni!

The running battle between "dumping" and supply.  By 1980, Japan owned
about half the world's DRAM market and US domestic producers were
leaving the business.

It was an interesting time in Silicon Valley; companies lost DRAM
inventory due to pilferage and outright burglary.  One outfit who'd
carefully laid in a big stock of AT DRAMs found their
parts crib empty of the things.  Some started storing them in vaults and
there was at least one incident of a supply truck hijacking.

One of the other problems was that Japan was scaling up its production;
there wasn't enough domestic demand to justify expansion, so dumping was
an obvious answer.  And the Japanese DRAMs were *good*. I still have
some NEC 416 DRAM here that we tested with a refresh rate of 2
seconds--that's seconds, not milliseconds.

After all, who's going to argue with someone selling Porsche 911s right
of the boat for $1500 each?

But we'd seen what happened to the US TV manufacturing market in the
70s--it simply couldn't compete with offshore production.  Gone were the
Zeniths, the Packard-Bells and the Curtis-Mathes in a few years.

Things really came to a head when Korea entered the business.  At that
time (1985 or so), I think the only US manufacturers of DRAM were Intel
and Micron.  I think the US went a bit overboard on the anti-dumping
duties.  Hyundai set up a big plant for DRAM locally in the 1990s to get
around anti-dumping penalties.   The huge complex (1.2M square feet) has
sat empty since 2008.  It's been passed around by various companies
(e.g. Broadcom) as a white elephant.  The current owner paid $6.3
million for it in an auction.   Heaven knows what will become of it; no
one seems to know.

--Chuck

RE: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Al Kossow via
> cctalk
> Sent: 17 June 2020 13:55
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech
> 
> 
> 
> > I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure 
> > mailing
> list?
> 
> Like all of the webby time-wasters, they don't have easy to mirror zipped
> archives, because they want to to spend time hovering around clicking on their
> sites.
> 
> 
> http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/
> 
> 
> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on 
> attachments.
> 
> Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well.

I would agree with both of those too.

Rob

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 9:11 AM Al Kossow via cctalk 
wrote:

>
>
> > I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure
> mailing list?
>
> Like all of the webby time-wasters, they don't have easy to mirror zipped
> archives, because
> they want to to spend time hovering around clicking on their sites.
>
>
> http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/
>
>
> The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on
> attachments.
>
> Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well.
>
>
>
I can't imagine Google does not scrape these lists for data mining/sell to
3rd party advertisers and companies who would benefit from it.  Having an
independent list means the authors of the content maintain some degree of
ownership.  Sure the list is public on the web but at least it's left in
its original form, not parsed and run through a database for sale.  I don't
have the time to find out for sure but if I did I bet one would see a
change in the ads that pop up in social media based on the contents of the
user group hosted on Google.  That said, if Google paid the author a little
for each post that got a +1 for accuracy/usefulness like sourceforge does,
that might be nice.  It's all about having a little say in who uses the
output of my brain. I work by the hour in my day job, I don't give away my
knowledge in skills, that little I have.

Bill

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure mailing 
list?


Like all of the webby time-wasters, they don't have easy to mirror zipped 
archives, because
they want to to spend time hovering around clicking on their sites.


http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/


The one thing I would change here is removal of the restriction on attachments.

Well, two things.. Getting rid of the cctalk/cctech split as well.

Re: TU58 dump tool on Linux?

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 6/17/20 2:30 AM, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, 2020-06-17 10:29:08 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk 
 wrote:

On Wed, 2020-06-10 21:06:40 +0200, Mattis Lind via cctalk 
 wrote:

Is there anyone that has already built a tool to dump TU58-tapes on a Linux
machine? I have the drive of course.


active discussion and coding going on here
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?75527-TU58-dump-tool/page4

IBM 3174 screen controllers UK

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

 

Folks,

 

I think I now have too many 3174 controllers. I have 

 

1 x Rack Mount - Token Ring Card + MFM Disk Emulator

1 x Large Tabletop - Token Card

1 x Large Tabletop - Ethernet Card <=> I am keeping this.

1 x Small Tabletop - Token Ring card but won't run TCPIP code.

 

If anyone wants one of these I am happy to ship at cost but they are
220/240v and heavy so shipping to USA may be a problem. 

I have a selection of floppy drives that can be fitted but I recommend using
a Gotek with FlashFloppy firmware.

I also have the following spares:-

 

1.  working PSU for rack mount
2.  non-working PSU for the rackmount systems but I am sure it can be
fixed
3.  spare motherboard for rackmount
4.  spare token ring card (if I can find it)
5.  (I may have memory modules but can't remember where I put them
6.  I think I have a 3299 multiplexor some where

 

Feel free to e-mail off-list with questions.

 

Dave Wade

G4UGM & EA7KAE

 

 

 

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

Groups IO   is  nice  as  it  allows  image files too.A picture is  worth  a 
thousand  words! Ed# In a message dated 6/17/2020 2:58:30 AM US Mountain 
Standard Time, cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: 
> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Tor Arntsen via
> cctalk
> Sent: 17 June 2020 09:50
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech
> 
> > > > There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features
> > > > compared to
> 
> Please please, no groups of any kinds. They're all horrible to use. A genuine
> mailing list like this is infinitively easier to keep track of and read at 
> leisure.
> Can't stand groups.io. Despise google groups (always overlaying everything
> with an insistent suggestion to translate.. hopeless to navigate if you've 
> been
> away for a while..
> Yahoo, don't mention yahoo. They're all pure junk.

Well Yahoo is pretty much a pure mailing list now. They removed all the web 
stuff. The only downside is they also removed moderation.
I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure mailing 
list? 

Dave 

RE: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Tor Arntsen via
> cctalk
> Sent: 17 June 2020 09:50
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech
> 
> > > > There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features
> > > > compared to
> 
> Please please, no groups of any kinds. They're all horrible to use. A genuine
> mailing list like this is infinitively easier to keep track of and read at 
> leisure.
> Can't stand groups.io. Despise google groups (always overlaying everything
> with an insistent suggestion to translate.. hopeless to navigate if you've 
> been
> away for a while..
> Yahoo, don't mention yahoo. They're all pure junk.

Well Yahoo is pretty much a pure mailing list now. They removed all the web 
stuff. The only downside is they also removed moderation.
I wonder what you don't like about "groups.io" Its pretty much a pure mailing 
list? 

Dave

Re: TU58 dump tool on Linux?

[Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk]

On Wed, 2020-06-17 10:29:08 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk 
 wrote:
> On Wed, 2020-06-10 21:06:40 +0200, Mattis Lind via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> > Is there anyone that has already built a tool to dump TU58-tapes on a Linux
> > machine? I have the drive of course.
> 
> I had a look at the TU58 documentation, it doesn't seem too hard to
> wire it up as a BUSE or NBD block device, though it'll be slow by
> today's standards. If I ever get my hands on a drive and a few tapes
> (at least one with known content!), I'll give it a try.

As the tapes are so small, it would probably even make sense to just
cache the whole tape upon starting the block device simulation and
just write to the tape as needed.

  Now, as I'm curious about it, I need such a drive. :)

MfG, JBG

-- 

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Tor Arntsen via cctalk]

> > > There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features compared to

Please please, no groups of any kinds. They're all horrible to use. A
genuine mailing list like this is infinitively easier to keep track of
and read at leisure. Can't stand groups.io. Despise google groups
(always overlaying everything with an insistent suggestion to
translate.. hopeless to navigate if you've been away for a while..
Yahoo, don't mention yahoo. They're all pure junk.

RE: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Jon Elson via
> cctalk
> Sent: 17 June 2020 01:57
> To: Zane Healy ; gene...@ezwind.net;
> discuss...@ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: Re: Future of cctalk/cctech
> 
> On 06/16/2020 05:45 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> > There is also groups.io, and it has some very nice features compared to
> what yahoo offered.
> >
> >
> Yes, several other groups I read and contribute to have moved to
groups.io,
> and they are working quite well and reliably.  Some options require $10 a
> month to be free from ads.

There are NO ADVERTISMENTS on groups.io. The subscriptions support the free
groups.
You data is not sold or monetized unless you make the message history public
Some options require a subscription which is $20/month
Others require a huge subscription which is $200/month

> 
> Jon

Dave
G4UGM

Re: TU58 dump tool on Linux?

[Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk]

On Wed, 2020-06-10 21:06:40 +0200, Mattis Lind via cctalk 
 wrote:
> Is there anyone that has already built a tool to dump TU58-tapes on a Linux
> machine? I have the drive of course.

I had a look at the TU58 documentation, it doesn't seem too hard to
wire it up as a BUSE or NBD block device, though it'll be slow by
today's standards. If I ever get my hands on a drive and a few tapes
(at least one with known content!), I'll give it a try.

MfG, JBG

-- 

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Frank McConnell via cctalk]

On Jun 16, 2020, at 23:27, Christian Corti via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, Doug Jackson wrote:
>> We could consider moving to Google groups hosting.
> 
> No... no no no no no. Never.
> Either become a (real) NNTP group or stay as a mailman list.

Oh good, here comes the discussion of which protocol stack this bikeshed should 
run.

(You can get INN to work with uucp!)

-Frank McConnell

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[P Gebhardt via cctalk]

>On 6/16/2020 4:43 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>> Although we all know Google will be around forever
>
>
>they destroyed dejanews despite promising to keep it.
>
>A few long threads I discussed things with Tanenbaum and a guy named 
>Torvalds, gone.
>
>Also some responses from a guy named DMR.
>
>Google.  uh no, not a fan.  Remember google plus?  Google hangouts is 
>gone this year.  I hold a grudge.  Could go on.  If they get bored with 
>groups, wonder if they'll do a better job preserving it.

Google doesn't have any obligations to keep their services up and running in 
any ways, since they are for FREE.
They offer these as long as they contribute to generate income by providing 
information from their users.
And why should a multi-national company of that size stick to promises they 
made in the past? Unfortunately, ethics and principles don't play much of a 
role when it comes to making money for companies of these sizes. It's about 
revenue in the first place. 

I think that we should avoid Google as a host, but that's just my humble 
opinion. Unfortunately, I don't have alternatives to come up with except for 
another mailing list, since I never tried groups.io.

Cheers,
Pierre

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Evan Linwood via cctalk]

I run a server farm of over 300 machines.
Dedicating one to a mailing list at no cost is easy.
The admin work well that’s life ha.

K.


Ah - now that's the spirit ! ;)
Yes the infrastructure is the smaller part of the problem - tinkering with the 
software if it breaks is the thing. I'm up to my eyeballs already so I'll 
gladly stand aside :)

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Wed, 17 Jun 2020, Doug Jackson wrote:

We could consider moving to Google groups hosting.


No... no no no no no. Never.
Either become a (real) NNTP group or stay as a mailman list.

Christian

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[821--- via cctalk]

I run a server farm of over 300 machines.  
Dedicating one to a mailing list at no cost is easy. 
The admin work well that’s life ha. 

K. 

> On 17 Jun 2020, at 08:15, Evan Linwood via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> With Jay retiring, what are the hosting plans for these mailing lists?
> 
> Hi Al,
> 
> I didn't know about Jay retiring or what that means for the list - i.e. does 
> it need to find new infrastructure, new administraton/management, or both?  
> I'm a relatively background person in the vintage computing scheme of things 
> but I do have an involvement in the data centre / hosting area & so if no 
> better options were to come forward would be very happy to pitch in somehow.

Re: Future of cctalk/cctech

[821--- via cctalk]

Some of us are happy to fire up a vm and host a mailing list.  Just saying. But 
u do have a point. 

K. 

> On 17 Jun 2020, at 07:57, Al Kossow via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> On 6/16/20 10:25 PM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote:
>> Just keep the list here…
> 
> sure. and when ezwind disappears?

Future of cctalk/cctech

[Evan Linwood via cctalk]

> With Jay retiring, what are the hosting plans for these mailing lists?

Hi Al,

I didn't know about Jay retiring or what that means for the list - i.e. does it 
need to find new infrastructure, new administraton/management, or both?  I'm a 
relatively background person in the vintage computing scheme of things but I do 
have an involvement in the data centre / hosting area & so if no better options 
were to come forward would be very happy to pitch in somehow.