Re: Systems Concepts SC-4 computer
Phil Budne wrote: > From: Lyle Bickley via cctalk >> >> I contacted Peter Samson regarding a "SC-4" and this was his response: >> "There was an SC-40 (made after my time there) which was a fast >> PDP-10-compatible system. I don’t know of any SC-4 though." > > The document that raised the question has his name and signature (or > the name and signature of *A* Peter R Samson) on it? > > I suppose one could say that SC-4 might be a marketing term that an > engineer might have forgotten, or chosen to have forgotten, but Peter > Samson's title in the document is Director of Marketing! > > The URL again: > http://people.csail.mit.edu/saltzer/Multics/MHP-Saltzer-060508/filedrawers/141.graphics-system/Scan%203.PDF I heard back from Fred Wright: "Although I wasn't at SC in 1972, I'm pretty sure I would have heard of the SC-4 if it had ever existed. The document you linked was just a proposal, and I imagine that that's as far as it ever got. AFAIK, SC didn't create any full-fledged computers between the SC-15 (1970) and the SC-30 (1983)."
Re: IndiZone collections
Bring it. Bring them all. On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 10:41 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Have you checked archive.org? The one site on the internet that didn't > whine about posting CD ISOs of a long dead operating system (kudos to > them!) > > If they don't have the ones you have, don't forget to submit them if you > would :-) > > - Ethan > > > Curious if anyone on here knows if the contents of any of the earlier > > IndiZone CDs from SGI are posted? A copy of IndiZone3 came with my copy > > of IRIX 6.2 a number of years ago, and while the games aren't the sort > > that would impress a modern XBox user I thought they were kind of neat > > and showed off the equipment and thoughts of the 1995-era, but I also > > have some earlier SGIs that would be IndiZone 1/2 era. I found a couple > > lists of the contest winners (but the CDs have more), and an occasional > > download link, but nothing complete for either. > > Anyone have links or lists of what was on them? > > > > > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > >
Re: IndiZone collections
Have you checked archive.org? The one site on the internet that didn't whine about posting CD ISOs of a long dead operating system (kudos to them!) If they don't have the ones you have, don't forget to submit them if you would :-) - Ethan Curious if anyone on here knows if the contents of any of the earlier IndiZone CDs from SGI are posted? A copy of IndiZone3 came with my copy of IRIX 6.2 a number of years ago, and while the games aren't the sort that would impress a modern XBox user I thought they were kind of neat and showed off the equipment and thoughts of the 1995-era, but I also have some earlier SGIs that would be IndiZone 1/2 era. I found a couple lists of the contest winners (but the CDs have more), and an occasional download link, but nothing complete for either. Anyone have links or lists of what was on them? -- : Ethan O'Toole
Re: PDP-11/70 progress (and a cry for help)
> On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 2:36 AM Fritz Mueller via cctalk > wrote: > So you could set up on t4 or t5 of that microinstruction with the KM11... > On Feb 16, 2021, at 11:08 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I can't, though -- all of this stuff works fine when running slowly :) Oh right -- I keep forgetting that part! So that really does leave you with just the LA to catch things in the act I guess. > Right now I'm thinking it is most likely the AMX selecting the wrong input > (I'm guessing that BMX is correctly selecting KOMX, to get the constant "2" > for the add operation). I agree; seems a good place to look next. > Have the 11/70 microcode PROMs been dumped? I had to recreate the 11/05 PROM > from the listings in the engineering drawings... I am not sure? For the 11/45, I also keyed it in by hand from the engineering drawings, but since it is only a 32x8 bit ROM this was pretty easy. --FritzM.
Re: Systems Concepts SC-4 computer
> > From: Lars Brinkhoff > > > Anyone ever heard of the Systems Concepts SC-4 computer? > Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Given the SF address, and Peter Samson's signature, this is the _the_ > > Systems > > Concepts. Never heard of the SC-4, though. > > > > One oddity: the cover letter is dated 1972, but it talks of "the main G.E. > > computer". GE's computer business was sold to Honeywell in 1970, though? From: Lyle Bickley via cctalk > > I contacted Peter Samson regarding a "SC-4" and this was his response: > > "There was an SC-40 (made after my time there) which was a fast > PDP-10-compatible system. I don’t know of any SC-4 though." The document that raised the question has his name and signature (or the name and signature of *A* Peter R Samson) on it? I suppose one could say that SC-4 might be a marketing term that an engineer might have forgotten, or chosen to have forgotten, but Peter Samson's title in the document is Director of Marketing! The URL again: http://people.csail.mit.edu/saltzer/Multics/MHP-Saltzer-060508/filedrawers/141.graphics-system/Scan%203.PDF
IndiZone collections
Curious if anyone on here knows if the contents of any of the earlier IndiZone CDs from SGI are posted? A copy of IndiZone3 came with my copy of IRIX 6.2 a number of years ago, and while the games aren't the sort that would impress a modern XBox user I thought they were kind of neat and showed off the equipment and thoughts of the 1995-era, but I also have some earlier SGIs that would be IndiZone 1/2 era. I found a couple lists of the contest winners (but the CDs have more), and an occasional download link, but nothing complete for either. Anyone have links or lists of what was on them?
Re: Systems Concepts SC-4 computer
Or Sugano Electric Laboratory, aka SEL On Tue, Feb 16, 2021, 2:55 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, 15 Feb 2021, Eric Moore wrote: > > Yes, SEL was referred to as systems, but like I said that PDF does not > seem > > I still have problems seeing SEL referred to as something different as > "Standard Elektrik Lorenz" (later part of ITT) who made for example the > ER56... > > Christian >
Re: Deciphering an odd floppy disk format.
> On Feb 16, 2021, at 2:38 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > What is interesting is that it had variable record length. It was specified > during the format process which tracks had what number of records and their > size. The first track always had 40 bytes record since it was the INDEX > track. File allocation was on a track basis. In the INDEX file each file > then had a start track and stop track as well as information on how many > records there were in the file and what size each record was. Also the > number of records per track were included in the file specification. > > I have never ever heard of such a scheme before. > > /Mattis I haven't, for floppies. But flexibility even more than that is found in IBM/360 disk drives, where you get to write sectors of variable length, and you don't even have to pick them ahead of time. Not to mention that those have keyed sectors, allowing you to do primitive databases directly in hardware. A similar but more restrictive scheme is the disk drives on the Electrologica X8 (2311 lookalikes, built by CDC I think) where you have a choice of 6 different sector sizes, and you get to make the choice separately for each track, at format time. You can reformat any track at any time. paul
Re: Deciphering an odd floppy disk format.
Den tis 16 feb. 2021 kl 19:04 skrev Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org>: > Building floppy controllers from MSI TTL was not uncommon, even after > the debut of the WDC LSI chips, which were initially very expensive. > I got information from a person that worked for Q1 reseller in Denmark that the floppy controller was built entirely out of TTL chips. No CPU whatsoever. It was interfaced through a parallel bus to the main computer. What is interesting is that it had variable record length. It was specified during the format process which tracks had what number of records and their size. The first track always had 40 bytes record since it was the INDEX track. File allocation was on a track basis. In the INDEX file each file then had a start track and stop track as well as information on how many records there were in the file and what size each record was. Also the number of records per track were included in the file specification. I have never ever heard of such a scheme before. /Mattis
Re: PDP-11/70 progress (and a cry for help)
On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 2:36 AM Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Feb 16, 2021, at 1:13 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > My money's on t5 going wrong -- an ALU input mux or operation being > selected incorrectly, possibly. This also somewhat explains why execution > doesn't trap due to executing a HALT from an odd address -- it isn't > actually executing from the wrong address, because the bus address is > loaded from a still-good PCB in t1. > > Yes -- that seems to match the observations. So you could set up on t4 or > t5 of that microinstruction with the KM11 in single-clock-phase mode, and > then have at the ALU with a logic probe to check... > I can't, though -- all of this stuff works fine when running slowly :). It's possible that while running in single-clock mode I might be able to see a waveform that's slightly off on the 'scope, if I can pinpoint the failure. Right now I'm thinking it is most likely the AMX selecting the wrong input (I'm guessing that BMX is correctly selecting KOMX, to get the constant "2" for the add operation). > > There is a small ALU control ROM on the GRA (E74 in the upper left of > sheet GRAA), which selects the ALU mode and operation based on lines coming > over from the IRC. I had a failure of this part on my 11/45, and ended up > with incorrect ALU setup in some circumstances. That part is a 256-bit > DM8598 tri-state bipolar mask ROM, and the truth table is on sheet GRAK. > > Looking back at my notes, I think it was Glen who informed me (on this > list, in 2016!) that the Signetics 82S123 PROM could be substituted here. > Programmed one up, and it worked, in case you run into the same thing and > it is useful info. > I think I may have ended up doing a similar substitution with a microcode ROM on my 11/05. Have the 11/70 microcode PROMs been dumped? I had to recreate the 11/05 PROM from the listings in the engineering drawings... - Josh > > cheers, > --FritzM. > >
Re: Deciphering an odd floppy disk format.
I think by 75 we at DEC hwe had at least two pin compatible source for UART, While CHester G Bell gets credit for the design, my memory is that Vince Bastiani did the design. That set the stage for having the Synchronus /Isochronous chips built too. Signetics was contracted to do the 2652 based on my lineunt design used in the DMC11 (similar to DP8/e and DP11, but ssi chip count reduced and a good bit faster. The SMC chip was based on Frank Zereksi's DU/DUP 11 design. bob On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 1:04 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Building floppy controllers from MSI TTL was not uncommon, even after > the debut of the WDC LSI chips, which were initially very expensive. > > Even the bit ordering on some of the early controllers wasn't settled. > You can see LSB-first and MSB-first encoded floppies, GCR, MMFM, hard- > and soft-sector implementations. There wasn't a strong push toward the > IBM implementations (3740/System 3) until the later part of the 70s. > > All of which can make deciphering of the early floppy formats "interesting". > > I was surprised in the mid-1970s on a remote console project that I > managed to find that the CDC engineers rolled their own UARTs from SSI. > Apparently simpler to use off-the-shelf components for a couple-off > project than try to justify a part not in the parts crib already that > may or may not have a second source. > > --Chuck
Re: Deciphering an odd floppy disk format.
Building floppy controllers from MSI TTL was not uncommon, even after the debut of the WDC LSI chips, which were initially very expensive. Even the bit ordering on some of the early controllers wasn't settled. You can see LSB-first and MSB-first encoded floppies, GCR, MMFM, hard- and soft-sector implementations. There wasn't a strong push toward the IBM implementations (3740/System 3) until the later part of the 70s. All of which can make deciphering of the early floppy formats "interesting". I was surprised in the mid-1970s on a remote console project that I managed to find that the CDC engineers rolled their own UARTs from SSI. Apparently simpler to use off-the-shelf components for a couple-off project than try to justify a part not in the parts crib already that may or may not have a second source. --Chuck
Re: Systems Concepts SC-4 computer
Lyle Bickley wrote: > I contacted Peter Samson regarding a "SC-4" and this was his response: > > "There was an SC-40 (made after my time there) which was a fast > PDP-10-compatible system. I don’t know of any SC-4 though." Thanks for asking! I'm turning next to Fred Wright, another former Systems Concepts employee.
Re: Systems Concepts SC-4 computer
YEs, SEL purchased by Gould, was Systems Engineering Labs - Their early systems were interesting in the way the I/O bandwidth was much highter than the compute capability. Perfect machine for data collection, and they were sold to many labs. THis continued with their first 32 bit machines. Later, before and after purchase by Gould, they had a more balanced architecture but they sure sucked up power. bob On Tue, Feb 16, 2021 at 3:55 AM Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 15 Feb 2021, Eric Moore wrote: > > Yes, SEL was referred to as systems, but like I said that PDF does not seem > > I still have problems seeing SEL referred to as something different as > "Standard Elektrik Lorenz" (later part of ITT) who made for example the > ER56... > > Christian
Re: PDP-11/70 progress (and a cry for help)
> On Feb 16, 2021, at 1:13 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > My money's on t5 going wrong -- an ALU input mux or operation being selected > incorrectly, possibly. This also somewhat explains why execution doesn't > trap due to executing a HALT from an odd address -- it isn't actually > executing from the wrong address, because the bus address is loaded from a > still-good PCB in t1. Yes -- that seems to match the observations. So you could set up on t4 or t5 of that microinstruction with the KM11 in single-clock-phase mode, and then have at the ALU with a logic probe to check... There is a small ALU control ROM on the GRA (E74 in the upper left of sheet GRAA), which selects the ALU mode and operation based on lines coming over from the IRC. I had a failure of this part on my 11/45, and ended up with incorrect ALU setup in some circumstances. That part is a 256-bit DM8598 tri-state bipolar mask ROM, and the truth table is on sheet GRAK. Looking back at my notes, I think it was Glen who informed me (on this list, in 2016!) that the Signetics 82S123 PROM could be substituted here. Programmed one up, and it worked, in case you run into the same thing and it is useful info. cheers, --FritzM.
Re: Deciphering an odd floppy disk format.
Den tis 16 feb. 2021 kl 03:16 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org>: > Thanks for the brochure. > That looks like a fascinating project! > Computerworld mentioned it occasionally in 1980. > > > I love that "Pl/1 will soon emerge as the dominant language of > microcomputers" > > > If you haven't already exhausted such leads (apologies if you already > have), some trivial GOOGLE'ing turned up the name (and autobiography) of a > guy who designed one of their disk controllers: > > https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AFZhXO9UdDh2wbg=5982EE6D20F4C106=5982EE6D20F4C106%2111901=root=OneUp I have seen them, except for that one. Quite a rambling story. I only managed to read parts of it. Unfortunately there was little detail of what he did, except that he did everything. A bit interesting to compare the Q1 Story with the one provided by Daniel Alroy. The disk controller probably had some intelligence in itself. It seems to have been connected over sync serial links to the computers. Probably it provided a quite high level interface to the computer. When I analyzed the tracks further I found that track 0 had 40 bytes sectors. Then there were tracks that had 80 character sectors. These were mostly text data on these tracks. A few tracks had sectors with 256 bytes. They seemed to contain binary data. I assume track 0 contains the directory that tells what files go where and the sector size on that track. Supposedly the intelligent floppy controller (more like a file server) knows of the directory structure and file structure of the various types of files there are. In a sense this type of 80 characters record fits very well with classic punch cards. Perhaps data entry was a big application? This type of early distributed systems look a bit like the Cogar 4 / Singer/ICL 1500 systems or Incoterm SPD 10/20. Intelligent terminals with local storage connected to a central storage (file server). > > > https://www.old-computers.com/museum/forum.asp?c=1286=1 > > https://philosophycentral.org/technology/ > > > Sorry, NO technical details of the controller that he designed. > > > On Mon, 15 Feb 2021, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Well. Now this is NOT a standard 179x that has written this. As I > mentioned > > early on in this thread it was not at all possible to read the disks > with a > > standard controller. The bit rate was off by quite a bit and the general > > format is different. So this is not necessarily a CRC at all. The machine > > that has written these is the Q1 Lite computer. A very odd mid-seventies > > system. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/q1/Q1_Sales_Brochure.pdf. >
Re: PDP-11/70 progress (and a cry for help)
On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 8:01 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Josh, > > In the situation you describe, I guess I would first chip clip '174s for a > slice of both PCA and PBC on the LA, run the troublesome instruction > sequence, and look at the trace. Check that CLKPCA H and CLKPCB H are > happening when and only when expected, and that all the timing there looks > okay. > > You would also be able to see good-data-clocked-in-but-bad-data-presented > on that trace, indicating more failed '174, or see any bad data arriving > from the ALU upstream. > > I'll take a look through the flows after dinner. The "0002" might be one > operand used to increment the PC, but the other operand shows up as all > zeros because of a bad ALU setup? I guess I'd trace to definitively rule > out PCA and PCB first, and then move backward around the chain from there > verifying the ALU, ALU muxs, mux sources, etc.? > > --FritzM. > Thanks, Fritz, that's a good idea. I'm a bit short on dip clips at the moment so I had to read PCA and PCB on separate passes (and just the low 6 bits); and right now the clock's still hooked up to RACA CLKA RAR H (which clocks when the ucode ROM address changes) so it's not quite as fine grained as I'd like (I have to move everything around to get the logic analyzer's clock signal hooked up to the main clock and it's just too late tonight...). But still, this is fairly revealing. This is an execution of a MOV #1, R0 instruction poked in at address 40: Addr PCB PCA 334 40 40 260 40 40 343 42 42 022 42 44 027 44 44 205 44 44 260 44 44 343 03 03 010 03 05 316 03 05 164 03 05 240 03 05 352 03 05 170 03 05 (Note that the sample is taken at the beginning of the microinstruction). Based on this, it's clear that things get messed up during 260 (FET.10). The operations performed during this instruction are: t1: BA <- PCB; BC <- DATI t2: t3: BRQ STROBE t4: BUS PAUSE t5: PCA <- PCB + 2 t6 IR <- BUS; BR <- BUS PCB <- PCA t3 FPA <- BA My money's on t5 going wrong -- an ALU input mux or operation being selected incorrectly, possibly. This also somewhat explains why execution doesn't trap due to executing a HALT from an odd address -- it isn't actually executing from the wrong address, because the bus address is loaded from a still-good PCB in t1. More investigation later this week... - Josh
Re: Systems Concepts SC-4 computer
On Mon, 15 Feb 2021, Eric Moore wrote: Yes, SEL was referred to as systems, but like I said that PDF does not seem I still have problems seeing SEL referred to as something different as "Standard Elektrik Lorenz" (later part of ITT) who made for example the ER56... Christian
