[cctalk] Re: looking for HP 1640B GPIB info
How ironic. I have a 1640B _without_ the HPIB option board. I've been trying to find that board to buy, without any luck so far. But I _did_ buy this: "HP 01281-90904 1640B OPTION 001 install & service manual (10281A) (HP-IB)" Now to try to find it, and see if it's short enough to be an easy scan. Guy At 08:36 PM 7/11/2024 +0100, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I have a HP 1640B that I'm trying to get to work. However I can't find any >information about it, and while the machine itself it straightforward enough >(and I remember enough from when I was using it in my first dayjob) I can not >find anything about how to use the GPIB interface that it has. > >The reason I'm interested is, we've finally managed to add GPIB support to the >PDP2011-MINC fpga implementation, and I'd like to test against a different >target than the relatively modern Philips/Fluke counter I'm now using. And the >1640B is the only other GPIB instrument I have... > >The HP doesn't seem to know the ID? command (that causes an error message on >the screen). It does respond to a newline (the standard >is-this-listener-present test that the MINC code implements), so at least >something is working. > >Does anyone here have any docs on the HP 1640B? It'd be very helpful at least >to know which GPIB commands are implemented. > >thanks in advance! > >Sytse
Re: Testing a 74S240
At 11:25 PM 30/04/2022 +0100, you wrote: >In trying to fix my M7133 CPU from my 11/24 I thought I had identified a >failed 74S240. However, when I replaced it (while adding a socket), the >fault remained. So, I guess the original chip may not be faulty. I decided >to test the original chip on a breadboard to see if it is OK. This is where >I got rather confused. > > > >I used a bench PSU, obviously connected Vcc to +5V and GND to the negative >terminal. I connected pin 19 (the active low Enable ) to GND. And then I >tested the particular pair of pins, 13 and 7. I did not connect any of the >other pins. However, pin 7 seemed to hover around 0.6 to 0.8V, no matter >what I did with pin 13. I tried it with the replacement 74S240 and got the >same result. I tried a second replacement 74S240 which had never been >installed on the M7133 in case something on the CPU board was damaging it, >and got the same result. > > > >I looked at the M7133 schematic and saw that pin 19 is connected to GND by a >180R resistor. I don't have one of that value so I tried a 220R. My >understanding is that the resistor isn't completely necessary, but I tried >anyway. However, the results were identical. I added a 220R to the input on >pin 19 just in case, again to no avail. > > > >I noticed that the chip (original and replacement) was drawing 100-110mA >from the bench PSU, which seems a bit high. As others have mentioned, the supply current is normal. These are fast, high power devices. When you say 'breadboard', what do you mean? Is it one of those blocky things with rows of holes with metal connecting fingers inside? Those have a lot of capacitance between rows, and with fast 74S logic and an inverting buffers chip like the 74S240 that can be a problem. Also I bet you didn't bother with a supply decoupling 0.1uF ceramic directly between Vcc and Gnd at the IC. So be aware that you may have a circuit oscillating at something above 20MHz, and your multimeter will just be showing averages. To avoid this, add the supply cap and tie all unused inputs directly to Gnd. With the input you are interested in, tie to Gnd or to Vcc via a 1K resistor. All with _short_ wires. Also with your multimeter (on Volts range) it's a good idea to have a 1K resistor in series with the probe tip AT THE TIP. Otherwise your meter lead is a nice radiating antenna, and can cause oscillations with that less than ideal breadboard. The resistor won't affect voltage readings. Old 74xx logic (mostly) doesn't have these problems, and people used to that get confused when much faster logic seems to be behaving weirdly. At least the IC won't blow up. I had an interesting learning experience the first time I got hold of a 74AC series 20 pin buffer chip. I blithely breadboarded it with just the power rails and turned on +5V. BANG! the die exploded. Blew a nice big crater in the plastic. Turns out with the fully CMOS inputs, they will float around in the zone between 0 and 1, which causes the very powerful output drivers to draw huge current as both the upper and lower drivers turn somewhat on. Times eight... Instant silicon vaporization. After tying all the inputs to valid logic levels, no more explosions. Guy
RE: VAX 780 on eBay
At 07:50 PM 1/01/2022 +, you wrote: >> >True. But if you're trying to get > $5000 for something, it doesn't seem >unreasonable to suggest that investing a bit in getting an extension cord run >to the location of the machine would be a good idea. The absence of that >effort makes me wonder if the owner knows what the outcome of such a test >would be and doesn't want to have to report it. >> > >But what would that accomplish? I think testing something like this requires a >lot more effort than plugging it in and hitting the circuit breaker. To test >this to see if some ODT comes up probably requires quite a lot of effort >(locate a terminal/pc, wire it up, figure out where to plug it into the 780, >etc. If this guy is a bulk dealer I would be surprised if he has the knowledge >to do anything more than a power test which, again, would not be very useful >and could even be detrimental. Exactly. The machine has a 3-phase 208/240V plug, they don't have such an outlet. Their efforts stop right there. But you're all focussed on that, and missing another important detail. The machine has a liquid cooling system. Some of the hoses look like they are Tygon, in the age-decayed brittle stage. Touch them and they crumble away. Running the machine without cooling would utterly wreck it. Even if they solved the mains power problem, they would be very unwise to actually power it up. The 'installation and configuration' manual for this machine would be huge. They don't have it. Plus, it's a mainframe. Not even any blinkenlights. Without setting it up as a complete system with everything interconnected properly, how would you even know it was running correctly? Plus you can safely assume at least some of the system unit interconnect cables are missing. Potentially weeks, even months of restoration work for a buyer, before even daring to apply power. Then if there's anything wrong in the electronics, good luck diagnosing and getting spare parts. Considering the uncertainties plus high transport, restoration, operating and manhour costs, who'd buy it? A museum perhaps? Or someone wanting a 'static display object' never intending to run it. Guy
Re: NI PCI-GPIB+ Analyzer boards on ebay
About the software: I bought a couple of that seller's cards; one each of 284088568161 & 284088570014. Asked him about the software. Here's his reply. Regarding your question about the Analyzer software, if I recall correctly it comes bundled in the "NI-488.2" software package. I believe the version in my screenshot in the eBay listing was v17.6 for Win7 SP1 x86, but it should still be fully supported in the newest v21.0 package for x86 or x64 systems. https://www.ni.com/en-us/support/downloads/drivers/download.ni-488-2.html LabVIEW version compatibility matrix: https://www.ni.com/en-us/support/documentation/compatibility/17/ni-488-2-and-labview-version-compatibility.html All new to me. Now to hunt manuals for the cards. Guy At 12:33 PM 9/12/2021 -0800, you wrote: >On Wed, Dec 8, 2021 at 10:50 PM Rodney Brown via cctalk > wrote: >> >> NI National Instruments PCI-GPIB+ Analyzer PCI IEEE488.2 Interface Card >> >> While a photo shows the Windows NI Analyzer software in use, the item >> doesn't mention it. >> >> If NI will provide the analyzer software, these could be used to capture >> HP-IB traffic to characterize the attached devices, timings etc. >> > >Has anyone recently installed and used the NI GPIB Analyzer software? >Is that something that must be obtained and installed separately, or >is it included as an optional component of the standard NI-488.2 >download and installation? > >I suppose I could try downloading and installing the 1.19 GB current >21.0.0 version of the NI-488.2 software to take a look. The current >21.0.0 version of NI-VISA is another 1.11 GB download. >
Re: HP 5061-3476: Which boards go where
At 11:41 PM 10/09/2021 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Guy! > >Thanks for the post and interesting. No it's not quite the exact power >supply but close. However > >Are you *sure* those cards are in the right slots? Hmm... I was starting on that system back in Nov 2013. I'm pretty careful about taking photos of stuff as I take it apart. There's 20 minutes time between the photo with the PS cover on, and the next with it off, showing the boards in place. My memory of that long ago is faded, but I think that 20 minutes was mostly spent looking at the mains voltage selector jumpers, and finding that whoever had originally converted it to 240V had very nicely saved the now unused jumpers in a small plastic bag shoved down between the small transformer and the big blue electro. This was the first time I'd ever opened the machine, let alone extracted and opened the PS. So I am _quite_sure_ the boards are as they were when I got the machine. Its history - I'd rescued it from a junkyard and imminent destruction. It was complete with many I/O cards, two HP tape drives, original HP green racks, but no hard disks. It had been part of a larger system, with no information about its operational condition. Anyway I'd just assumed it was 'previously working, left idle for years.' Then I'd stored it for some more years, untried. Too busy with work, family, etc. Finally got to it. Story: http://everist.org/NobLog/20131112_HP_1000_minicomputer_teardown.htm Where I got to, was quickly attempting to run the power supply by itself, to verify voltages before reconnecting to the system. It didn't do anything sensible, and I'd assumed this was something to do with the PWR CONT IN and BATT INPUT connectors not seeing expected states. So I needed a manual. Asking around, I got in contact with Jon Johnston of the HP Museum in Victoria Australia. He was away mountain climbing. Later I tried again, in the meantime he'd returned then gone climbing in Himalayas again. This time he died there. A good friend of mine had also died climbing in the Himalayas, so this project acquired an aversion factor. Lacking a schematic, I'd have to disassemble the supply completely and reverse engineer the circuits. Not too hard but time consuming. And I was having other life problems. So the machine got boxed up and shelved - JUST before I'd have started actually looking into how the PS was supposed to work. When I would have discovered the board swap. Now, looking at the photos, you are right! Those two boards are definitely swapped. I just dug out the machine now and am looking at it. Thinking back to 2013 I recall wondering about the way the TO3 transistor leg socket-pins on the board next to the big blue cap, were pressing into the insulating jacket of the cap. I recall thinking that didn't seem like a good design. I'd also spotted the two cards _could_ be interchanged, and written "Pre-Reg" on the card that is actually the inverter board. Because it was in the pre-reg slot. Monkey-see... Also noted that the lower TO3 heatsink fins were pressing on the wires from P11. So I bent the fins up a little bit. No reason to think these problems could be due to swapped boards! The slots have "PRE-REG BD" and "INVERTER BD" written in the component silkscreen, right next to them, very obviously. Which makes me feel pretty stupid for not realising the swap, given how clearly the boards are a small regulator vs power driver. Also hadn't thought to check the board part numbers against those listed on the power supply cover. (IMG_6081.jpg) Which would have immediately revealed they were swapped. How did that happen? Someone in the last days of the machine's operation, trying to fix a fault, giving up, shoving stuff back together carelessly? Or a deliberate 'make it not work for the auction' thing? (But there was never an auction.) Or did I have a brain fart, take the boards out in that 20 minute gap, and put them back in wrong - violating my own rule about 'photos first'? (I really don't think so.) Anyway... So now I know I powered it up with those boards in swapped slots. Means I _really_ need a schematic. Maaaybe nothing bad happened. But I'd rather check. All the online PS manuals I've found online are for earlier models. My system is a 2113E. Power supply 5061-6615 SN: 2340 The layout of my inverter and pre-reg boards are different than in the earlier manuals. Pic: http://everist.org/pics/hp1000_ps/20210911_9766.jpg I had also found this manual 92851-90001_Sections-IXB-X_Mar-1981.pdf which is for an earlier PS than mine. I think it came from bitsavers. I've copied it to the same folder as the pics above. Does it match your PS? I _still_ don't have time to allocate to tracing out the power supply schematic. Guy > >Reason I am asking: When I look at the HP docs they label the >Pre-regulator board as A3A1. A3A1 also has the red LED. The inverter >board (the one with the transistors and transformers)
Re: HP 5061-3476: Which boards go where
Here are some disassembly pics of a HP 5061-6615 power supply. http://everist.org/pics/hp1000_ps/5061-6615.zip 2.9M Details: HP 1000 Model 2113E SN 2340A03701 OPT 004 014 power supply Model 5061-6615SN 2340 Not the exact same PS as yours, but it might help? My problem is I haven't been able to find a manual and schematics for that apparently late model supply. Though last time I looked was years ago. The lack of a manual/schematics froze that restoration project. Can anyone suggest where I might find a copy? PDF, or I'd pay for an original paper copy. (To use, and also ensure it's scanned in high quality.) Guy At 09:30 PM 9/09/2021 -0400, you wrote: >Quick question: I've been cleaning out and repairing an HP5061 supply >for a 1000 computer. However I didn't take a picture of the 4 boards >when I pulled them and I want to make sure they go in the right places. > > From the manual (page 99 of 92851-90001_Sections-IXB_Mar-1981.pdf) the >slots are labeled A6-J1 through A6-J5. Does this mean that: > >J1 is the >J5 is the control board (A3A5) >J4 is a jumper board for +12 adjustments >J3 is unused (battery backup boards) >J2 is the inverter board (A3A2) >J1 is the pre-regulator board (A3A1) > >Seems right but I know how bad things can go :-) > >Thanks! >C >
Re: Extremely CISC instructions
>Hello, > >For the sake of illustration to folks who are not necessarily used to >thinking about what computers do at the machine code level, I'm interested >in collecting examples of single instructions for any CPU architecture that >are unusually prolific in one way or another. This request is highly >underconstrained, so I have to rely on peoples' good taste to determine >what counts as "interesting" here. This is perhaps outside even the vague bounds you were thinking of, but it probably wins the 'unusually prolific' prize by a gigabyte-mile. Behold, the hidden, secret and heinous X86 2-byte 'launch instruction' 0x0F, 0x3F. See this talk about the discovery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmTwlEh8L7g DEF CON 26 - Christopher Domas - GOD MODE UNLOCKED Hardware Backdoors in redacted x86 46:03 DEFCON ConferenceOct 23, 2018 Complexity is increasing. Trust eroding. In the wake of Spectre and Meltdown, when it seems that things cannot get any darker for processor security, the last light goes out. This talk will demonstrate what everyone has long feared but never proven: there are hardware backdoors in some x86 processors, and they're buried deeper than we ever imagined possible. While this research specifically examines a third-party processor, we use this as a stepping stone to explore the feasibility of more widespread hardware backdoors. After which you will never trust your Intel-based PC, ever again. Guy
Re: DEC computer lab / mini banana plugs
At 07:47 PM 17/06/2021 -0500, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >A while ago there was discussion about the mini banana plugs >used in this system. > >On another project at work, we needed some mini banana >plugs, these sure look similar. > >I found that Digi-Key stocks some, as part # 314-1403 >(black, pack of 10 plugs, for $24) > >and jacks 501-1051 (red) 501-1479 (black) and 501-1959 >(green) for $2.05 each. > >These are roughly 0.1" diameter plugs that squeeze down a >bit when inserted into the sockets. > >Not claiming these are the same size as the DEC ones, but my >guess is they could be. > > >Jon There are also some possible functional equivalents available in bulk and cheap, from Aliexpress. They are in-line power connectors used by RC enthusiasts. For soldering to power wires, and come in M/F pairs. There are multiple sizes, but so far I've only bought the two sizes that fit standard 4mm banana jacks, and 2mm sockets. 2mm: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001041960728.html 10Pairs/Set 2mm Bullet Banana Plug Wire Connector Tool for RC Battery US $1.29Shop5585045 Store 4mm: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32339136046.html IMC Hot 4mm Inside Dia Male Female Banana Plug Bullet Replacement 10 Pairs US $4.02Imc Digital Technology Company Ltd (They are having their "11st Anniversary" :) But basically search for whoever has the best deal and shipping. Obviously the 'gold plating' won't have much if any actual gold, but it seems quite functional. There are also multiple sources of very nice high flexibility, fine stranded wire with silicone insulation. In a wide range of sizes. eg https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32432300722.html Not to mention ultra-cheap heatshrink tubing. It's nice to finally have multimeter probes that measure 0.0 ohms when shorted. Unlike the usual cheap, thin core commercial leads. Guy
Re: SOT: Scanning old computer docs
At 12:19 AM 3/04/2021 -0600, you wrote: >On 4/2/21 10:27 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: >> There are defects in your 'good' flatbed image too - for eg the >> bleed-through of the orange lettering on the other side of the >> sheet. The way to correct that is to use a black, highly light >> absorbent backing sheet. Eg black velvet. > >Hum. > >Why do so many scanners come with glossy white (usually on foam) backing >to hold the image down? > >I'm questioning why they do that, not your recommendation. I think it is a combination of habit, and marketting/customer expectations. People intuitively expect the white backing, and for many scanning tasks it is preferable. Yet for scanning anything printed on both sides of thin paper, it's a real problem. I have a sheet of matt black plastic, and some black velvet cloth for this. The plastic is easier to use, but the velvet works better for really thin paper with a lot of visual bleed through. The more light absorbent the better. If I ever find a sheet of 'vanta black' (new light absorbent substance, very close to 100%, look it up) I'll be using that. That's not the only 'strange & unfortunate lack' in typical scanners. Another is that the raised plastic bezel goes all the way round the glass, rather than having at least one of the glass long sides be flat right to the edge, with the scanner sensor also going very close to the edge. This is needed for scanning sheets larger than the bed, and also very essential for scanning pages of books that are too thick to allow getting any page flat on the typical scanner bed. There are special 'edge scanners' that allow this - draping the book over the side of the scanner, so one page can be fully flat on the glass. They cost _much_ more than normal scanners. And yet the actual construction has very little that would cost more to manufacture. Construction is just arranged a little differently. The higher cost is another case of 'marketting.' Guy
Re: SOT: Scanning old computer docs
Hi Kevin, Are you _sure_ the two modes use the same optical sensor? Often sheet feed systems use a different sensor somewhere along the paper path. I suspect they are not, given the odd colour pattering off the top edge of the paper, on the autofeed image. If those two images are definitely produced by the same sensor, through the same glass, then there are a few other possibilities: * A 'mode settings' problem. Scanners always have a bunch of modes, such as photo vs printed, sensitivity adjustment curve, gamma correction, etc. It may be your machine uses different settings for flatbed vs page feeder, and the page feeder settings are _way_off_. * Keeping the paper flat on the glass. Someone else pointed this out - maybe the sheet feed process uses rollers and the paper is bowing away from the glass in those two really bad wide streaks. But there are other problems too, because there are fine streaks as well. * Another thing scanners do, is calibrate the sensor using a standard white/black image bar, usually behind one end of the flatbed bezel. The sensor always has imperfections, but subtracting the observed calibration data results in a clean image. (Ideally, sometimes not.) Maybe your machine uses separate calibration datasets in the two modes, and the one for autofeed is rooted. Download a manual and read. There are defects in your 'good' flatbed image too - for eg the bleed-through of the orange lettering on the other side of the sheet. The way to correct that is to use a black, highly light absorbent backing sheet. Eg black velvet. But you probably can't do that on your scanner. This defect is typical of scans done by people with little discernment for image quality. They don't even notice. Then there are fundamental defects common to both images: * You've used PDF as the end format. As a result the image is stored in lossy JPG coding, and thus has typical JPG edge noise. PDF does not allow any sensible image coding scheme such as PNG. Just a few old ones: JPG (OK for photos, but awful for any image with fine detail and hard edges), TIFF (lossless but very inefficient), the horrible 'Fax mode' (B&W, in which the captured data is stored losslessly, but the capture process is horrifically lossy and destructive of image quality.) Plus another abortion called JBIG2. ( A patch tokenization scheme that is so bad it should be illegal.) * The originals are screened printing, where all tones are created by varying the size of saturated YMCB ink dots laid in a regular grid. To scan this kind of document adequately, you HAVE to scan at high enough resolution to resolve the edges of the tiny dots (the only way to avoid obnoxious moire patterning), then post-process the image to convert (blur) the screen grid dots to smooth colour shading (still at very high resolution) then scale the image to a desired final size. Then lastly change the image encoding to a suitable (lossless) form (eg one of the PNG modes) for sane file size. This is still unavoidably a manual page-by-page process if you want archival quality. And PDF flatly doesn't allow it. Once you realize this is so, you'll become very depressed about all the people who think they are 'saving worthy documents for posterity' by scanning them into PDF. Your images still contain remnants of the screening dots pattern, but messed up by JPG artefacting. Thus the file size is stupidly high due to all the superfluous and messy fine detail. Zoom right in to see it. Sorry to not be very helpfull, Guy At 11:56 AM 3/04/2021 +1100, you wrote: >If there is anyone on the list familiar with scanners I'd be most grateful >for some advice please. > >Some time ago I bought a HP 8270 sheet feed (full duplex) scanner NOS. I >wanted to digitise a whole heap of old computer documentation and for a >little while I've been working through the big heap of stuff. But for quite >some time I've had an issue with scans that go through the sheet feeder >(irrespective of whether I do them double sided or not). Basically the >problem is that anything that goes via the sheet feeder has issues with >"streaks" in the document whereas anything done on the flat bed is perfect >(I have some links to some examples below). > >By way of clarity, anything done on the flatbed the lamp traverses the flat >bed to do the scan. For sheet fed items the lamp is moved to specific slot >on the scanner and the sheet feeder takes over wrapping the document past >the lamp. Given that flat bed scans are OK I don't think its an issue with >the lamp. > >I've done the following things to try to resolve the issue with no joy: > >* Checked for any specific settings >* Tried doing scans in grayscale >* Tried increasing the resolution (default is 300dpi) to slow the speed that >the document is fed through the feeder. > >According to HP the issue is a cleanliness one i.e. dirt on the glass can >cause reflections. I've foll
Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious
At 05:45 PM 25/03/2021 -, you wrote: >https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313467585213 Seller is German. Of course they are serious. The real question is whether they are sane. Guy
Re: removing melting rubber from metal?
At 12:14 PM 27/10/2020 -0500, you wrote: >Hi All, > >I have an EP-1 eprom programmer from BP Microsystems. > >The rubber feet melted. It was in my closet. I have no clue how it got >that hot, or if they >are just some composition for them to melt. > >My question is how do I clean this up? Acetone, paint thinner? I scraped >off the feet, so there is >just a few 'streams' of melted rubber down the sides, and a bit that >somehow got inside (also on the side, not on the electronics). > >Just looking for some ideas before I start applying chemicals... > >Thanks, >Kelly It's not heat. Just some rubber types degrade chemically over time. Cross links between the long chain hydrocarbons break, and the solid turns to a semi-liquid. Very sticky liquid. I presume the body of your eprom programmer is painted metal or plastic. So 'acetone and hot air' - NO! The gunky stuff is not terribly soluble. Mineral turps on a tissue pad, rubbing, kind of works. Mechanically scrape off what you can first. Use wooden or plastic spatula to avoid scratching paint. The rub with the pad. Solvents like turps, acetone, IPA etc - always try a little on your surface first to check the material isn't damaged by the solvent. Guy
RE: Well Heeled "Rescue"
>https://www.ebay.com/itm/APPLE-1-Original-1976-Computer-System-1st-Steve-Wozniak-designed-computer-and/174195921349 Heh, all very jolly. Thanks everyone for reminding me... of my personal Apple I story. http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm Guy At 08:39 PM 19/10/2020 -0700, you wrote: >>> He probably had to pay 5% sales tax on it. That would come out to >>> 699.30, so offer him an even $700 and he'll probably take it. > >On Mon, 19 Oct 2020, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> No. Sales tax is paid by the buyer. At least that is how eBay is working in >> CA. If I buy something for $10 my final price is $11 tax included. eBay then >> pays the sales tax to the state on behalf of the seller. Sales tax is passed >> on straight to buyers like anywhere else. > >I think that Chris' point is that the ORIGINAL total gross amount for the >purchase was $699.30 (including the tax) Therefore, it might be a deal >breaker whether you also reimburse what he had paid in sales tax. >However, this is not the original owner. He got it USED. He probably >didn't pay the sales tax, AND, being a used computer, he probably paid >less than retail. >He got it in Montreal. Was 5% the sales tax rate in Montreal at the time? > >Also, in your offers, did you include the $1 that he is demanding for >shipping? (Although he states that he will not ship it) > > >Keep in mind that it is out of warranty. >It is no longer supported. >It is slow, without much memory. >It doesn't meet current FCC specs (unshielded wood case) >The software hasn't been updated in a long time. >None of the current retail software will run on it. >He probably doesn't even have an anti-virus program on it. >It is even starting to be difficult to get diskettes for it. >(which isn't too serious, because it has no drives!) >It requires an analog composite monitor. >Is the IEC power receptacle original equipment? >The documentation is "digital copies", instead of the original books. > > >And, he is trying to get MORE THAN RETAIL for it! >
Re: What's the secret to LK201 leaf springs?
At 10:41 AM 12/09/2020 -0700, you wrote: >I got an LK201 recently that was a little damaged in transit. A couple of the >keycap assemblies and their corresponding leaf springs have come off. I can >see how the leaf springs fit on the little posts on the keycap assemblies, and >I can see where those snap into the board, but what I donât see is how to >get that put together and then keep it together while I turn it over and then >get it in place. > >Clearly there is some simple trick I am missing. What is it? > >Adam "a couple" ? Heh. I recently bought an old HP 1640B protocol analyzer, very cheap. Turns out some genius had 'lubricated' all the front panel button mechanisms. They are the red-bodied HP 'buckling spring' type, that are heat-staked to the PCB. The 'lubricant' had aged into something with glue-like properties. Also a bit corrosive to PCB traces. I've cut off the melted plastic dots and removed ALL the switches, then disassembled the switches. Still to be carefully cleaned. Then there's the small problem of reattaching 34 switch bodies to the PCB, without enough plastic in the studs to re-heat-stake them. I'm hoping superglue in the PCB holes may work. But the idea of UV-curing Bondic mentioned above sounds appealing. Oh, and 3 of the key switches have broken center shafts too, so I need to find some spare switches. Guy
Re: paper tape archiving
Be glad you don't have to deal with this kind of thing: http://everist.org/pics/misc/20200719_6831_wet_tapes.jpg A bunch of PDP 8 system tapes. That were literally soaking in liquid water when recovered. Yes, that is mildew. They are nearly dried out now. Still to be determined if they can be manually teased apart intact enough to be read. After deciphering what they all are, from remnants of the labels and a paper list that was with them. Hopefully these are already online somewhere. If not, then a lot of work to recover. The DEC mag tapes... sigh. Still not even thinking about them. Just slow drying. Guy
Re: Interesting device on eBay -- CDC clock generator?
At 02:22 AM 17/01/2020 -0800, you wrote: > >On 2020-Jan-17, at 12:11 AM, William Maddox on CCTalk via cctalk wrote: > >> The seller thinks this may be a drum memory, but it is clearly not. My >> guess is that it is some kind of clock generator. Anyone recognize this? >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Mainframe-Computer-Part-Drum-Memory-Control-Data/312942951497 > > >The circumferential wire bundles feed two-stage transistor amplifiers that >drive toward the center, then drop down to the interior board through >inductors and then feed back toward the circumference near the coax connectors. Reversed. The wire bundles are LF power. The radial circuit drives from the center outwards towards the TNC connectors. Judging by the progression of semiconductor beefyness. The thing at the center looks like it might be an avalanche diode pulse generator. Maybe. Something to generate a very fast edge. Someone wanted those coax signals to all be very precise and coincident. Now where... Oh yes, 'physics packages.' My guess - nothing to do with computers, but rather an implosion detonator for a nuke. Or something less drastic, like explosive metal forming? That board with 'DISCH' and 'GATE' might be some kind of coincident/code detector, related to making sure the round thing doesn't fire except when it's really supposed to? If they are related at all. >It looks like one of the coax connectors (J26) is out of regular angular >displacement from the others. >I'm wondering if it could be some sort of rotating / multi-phase modulator. An >RF carrier injected on the odd-one-out coax connector, modulated or switched >in a rotating sequence via the circle of drivers, out to the circle of coax >connectors. >Sheer guess as I've never seen one, but perhaps for a VOR station, to set up >the (electronically-generated) rotating beacon, the coax connectors would feed >out to RF amps and a circle of antenna segments. Nah, that's fast circuity but not AC RF. >It looks a little too engineered to be for a lab experiment. Very definitely. Lots of work in that round thing. Guy
Re: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?)
Bah, attached photos don't work. OK, the pic is here: http://everist.org/pics/misc/20200103_5346_IBM_mag_cards.jpg Guy At 10:51 PM 3/01/2020 +1100, you wrote: >Huh, that's a coincidence. Going through a recent bequeathment to the >Australian Computer Museum Society, >I'd just yesterday opened a box with manuals, some cards, and other bits for >the same system. >See pic, with manual cover illustration of the system. > >It was IBM trying to produce a word processor and email, before the technology >was really up to it. >You typed onto paper, with backspacing and overtyping to get it right, then >saved to the mag card. >That could be read back and printed out, to get a clean copy. Then you could >snail mail the mag card >to someone with another machine. Or just post the printed letter I suppose, >but how old fashioned! >A lease document with the set shows that in 1981 the price was $5000 (AU). Or >leased over 48 months, >total rent of $6682. > >My job now is to find out what happened to the actual machine, since the >contents list says it's >present, but it isn't. > >Fun fact: according to the listing the modified selectric typewriter (heavy) >and the magcard 82 processor >(cabinet in the photo, supposedly about 50 Kg) are linked by a "non-plugged >cable". Brilliant. > >Guy > > > >At 10:46 AM 3/01/2020 +0100, you wrote: >>A guy, in Europ, sells a box of IBM magnetic cards, used on IBM >>"Compcarte" ( sorry, french "name" ) >> >>They seems in medium state, at least, but I think these are pretty >>rare. So, if somebody is interested . >> >>https://www.ebay.fr/itm/gro%C3%9Frechner-wechseldatentr%C3%A4ger-magnetkarten/184107517064?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 >> >
Re: FS : IBM Magnetic cards for IBM selectric "compocarte" (?)
Huh, that's a coincidence. Going through a recent bequeathment to the Australian Computer Museum Society, I'd just yesterday opened a box with manuals, some cards, and other bits for the same system. See pic, with manual cover illustration of the system. It was IBM trying to produce a word processor and email, before the technology was really up to it. You typed onto paper, with backspacing and overtyping to get it right, then saved to the mag card. That could be read back and printed out, to get a clean copy. Then you could snail mail the mag card to someone with another machine. Or just post the printed letter I suppose, but how old fashioned! A lease document with the set shows that in 1981 the price was $5000 (AU). Or leased over 48 months, total rent of $6682. My job now is to find out what happened to the actual machine, since the contents list says it's present, but it isn't. Fun fact: according to the listing the modified selectric typewriter (heavy) and the magcard 82 processor (cabinet in the photo, supposedly about 50 Kg) are linked by a "non-plugged cable". Brilliant. Guy At 10:46 AM 3/01/2020 +0100, you wrote: >A guy, in Europ, sells a box of IBM magnetic cards, used on IBM >"Compcarte" ( sorry, french "name" ) > >They seems in medium state, at least, but I think these are pretty >rare. So, if somebody is interested . > >https://www.ebay.fr/itm/gro%C3%9Frechner-wechseldatentr%C3%A4ger-magnetkarten/184107517064?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 >
Re: Scanning docs for bitsavers
At 01:20 AM 3/12/2019 -0200, you wrote: >I cannot understand your problems with PDF files. >I've created lots and lots of PDFs, with treated and untreated scanned >material. All of them are very readable and in use for years. Of course, >garbage in, garbage out. I take the utmost care in my scans to have good >enough source files, so I can create great PDFs. > >Of course, Guy's commens are very informative and I'll learn more from it. >But I still believe in good preservation using PDF files. FOR ME it is the >best we have in encapsulating info. Forget HTMLs. I don't propose html as a viable alternative. It has massive inadequacies for representing physical documents. I just use it for experimenting and and as a temporary wrapper, because it's entirely transparent and maleable. ie I have total control over the result (within the bounds of what html can do.) >Please, take a look at this PDF, and tell me: Isn't that good enough for >preservation/use? >https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7yahi4JC3juSVVkOEhwRWdUR1E/view OK, not too bad in comparison to many others. But a few comments: * The images are fax-mode, and although the resolution is high enough for there to be no ambiguities, it still looks bad and stylistically greatly differs from the original. Pity I don't have a copy of the original, to make demonstration scans of a few illustrations to show what it could be like, for similar file size. * The text is OCR, with a font I expect likely approximates the original fairly well. Though I'd like to see the original. I suspect the PDF font is a bit 'thic' due to incorrect gray threshold. Also it's searchable, except that the OCR process included paper blemishes as 'characters' so if you copy-paste the text elsewhere you have to carefully vet it. And not all searches will work. This is an illustration of the point that till we achieve human-leval AI, it's never going to be possible to go from images to abstracted OCR text automatically without considerable human oversight and proof-reading. And... human-level AI won't _want_ to do drudgery like that. * Your automated PDF generation process did a lot of silly things, like chaotic attempts to OCR 'elements' of diagrams. Just try moving a text selection box over the diagrams, you'll see what I mean. Try several diagrams, it's very random. * The PCB layouts, for eg PDF page #s 28, 29 - I bet the original used light shading to represent copper, and details over the copper were clearly visible. But when you scanned it in bi-level all that is lost. These _have_ to be in gray scale, and preferably post-processed to posterize the flat shading areas (for better compression as well as visual accuracy.) * Why are all the diagram pages variously different widths? I expect the original pages (foldouts?) had common sizes. This variation is because either you didn't use a fixed recipee for scanning and processing, or your PDF generation utility 'handled' that automatically (and messed up.) * You don't have control of what was OCR'd and what wasn't. For instance, why OCR table contents, if the text selection results are garbage? For eg, select the entire block at the bottom of PDF page 48. Does the highlighting create a sense of confidence this is going to work? Now copy and paste into a text editor. Is the result useful? (No.) OCR can be over-used. * 'ownership' As well as your introduction page, you put your tag on every single page. Pretty much everyone does something like this. As if by transcribing the source material you acquired some kind of ownership or bragging rights. But no, others put a very great deal of effort into creating that work, and you just made a digital copy. That the originators probably would consider an aesthetic insult to their efforts. So, why the proud tags everywhere? Summary: It's fine as a working copy for practical use. Better to have made it than not, so long as you didn't destroy the paper original in the process. But if you're talking about an archival historical record, that someone can look at in 500 years (or 5000) and know what the original actually looked like, how much effort went into making that ink crisp and accurate, then no. It's not good enough. To be fair, I've never yet seen any PDF scan of any document that I'd consider good enough. Works created originally in PDF as line art are a different class, and typically OK. Though some other flaws of PDF do come into play. Difficulty of content export, problems with global page parameters, font failures, sequential vs content page numbers, etc. With scanning there are multiple points of failure right through the whole process at present, ranging from misunderstandings of the technology among people doing scanning, problems with scanners (why are edge scanners so rare!?), lack of critical capabilities in post-processing utilities (line art on top of ink screening, it's a nightmare,
Re: Scanning docs for bitsavers
At 01:57 PM 2/12/2019 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 8:51 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk >wrote: > >> When I corresponded with Al Kossow about format several years ago, he >> indicated that CCITT Group 4 lossless compression was their standard. >> > >There are newer bilevel encodings that are somewhat more efficient than G4 >(ITU-T T.6), such as JBIG (T.82) and JBIG2 (T.88), but they are not as >widely supported, and AFAIK JBIG2 is still patent encumbered. As a result, >G4 is still arguably the best bilevel encoding for general-purpose use. PDF >has natively supported G4 for ages, though it gained JBIG and JBIG2 support >in more recent versions. > >Back in 2001, support for G4 encoding in open source software was really >awful; where it existed at all, it was horribly slow. There was no good >reason for G4 encoding to be slow, which was part of my motivation in >writing my own G4 encoder for tumble (an image-to-PDF utility). However, G4 >support is generally much better now. Mentioning JBIG2 (or any of its predecessors) without noting that it is completely unacceptable as a scanned document compression scheme, demonstrates a lack of awareness of the defects it introduces in encoded documents. See http://everist.org/NobLog/20131122_an_actual_knob.htm#jbig2 JBIG2 typically produces visually appalling results, and also introduces so many actual factual errors (typically substituted letters and numbers) that documents encoded with it have been ruled inadmissible as evidence in court. Sucks to be an engineering or financial institution, which scanned all its archives with JBIG2 then shredded the paper originals to save space. The fuzzyness of JBIG is adjustable, but fundamentally there will always be some degree of visible patchyness and risk of incorrect substitution. As for G4 bilevel encoding, the only reasons it isn't treated with the same disdain as JBIG2, are: 1. Bandwaggon effect - "It must be OK because so many people use it." 2. People with little or zero awareness of typography, the visual quality of text, and anything to do with preservation of historical character of printed works. For them "I can read it OK" is the sole requirement. G4 compression was invented for fax machines. No one cared much about visual quality of faxes, they just had to be readable. Also the technology of fax machines was only capable of two-tone B&W reproduction, so that's what G4 encoding provided. Thinking these kinds of visual degradation of quality are acceptable when scanning documents for long term preservation, is both short sighted and ignorant of what can already be achieved with better technique. For example, B&W text and line diagram material can be presented very nicely using 16-level gray shading, That's enough to visually preserve all the line and edge quality. The PNG compression scheme provides a color indexed 4 bits/pixel format, combining with PNG's run-length coding. When documents are scanned with sensible thresholds plus post-processed to ensure all white paper is actually #FF, and solid blacks are actually #0, but edges retain adequate gray shading, PNG achieves an excellent level of filesize compression. The visual results are _far_ superior to G4 and JBIG2 coding, and surprisingly the file sizes can actually be smaller. It's easy to achieve on-screen results that are visually indistinguishable from looking at the paper original, with quite acceptable filesizes. And that's the way it should be. Which brings us to PDF, that most people love because they use it all the time, never looked into the details of its internals, and can't imagine anything better. Just one point here. PDF does not support PNG image encoding. *All* the image compression schemes PDF does support, are flawed in various cases. But because PDF structuring is opaque to users, very few are aware of this and its other problems. And therefore why PDF isn't acceptable as a container for long term archiving of _scanned_ documents for historical purposes. Even though PDF was at least extended to include an 'archival' form in which all the font definitions must be included. When I scan things I'm generally doing it in an experimental sense, still exploring solutions to various issues such as the best way to deal with screened print images and cases where ink screening for tonal images has been overlaid with fine detail line art and text. Which makes processing to a high quality digital image quite difficult. But PDF literally cannot be used as a wrapper for the results, since it doesn't incorporate the required image compression formats. This is why I use things like html structuring, wrapped as either a zip file or RARbook format. Because there is no other option at present. There will be eventually. Just not yet. PDF has to be either greatly extended, or replaced. And that's why I get upset when people physically destroy rare old documents during or after scanning them currently. It happens so frequently, that
Re: Disposing: IBM Microchannel cards, for free
They have all gone to good homes. Thanks to Matt and Dave in England for taking an IRMALink each, and Alan in USA for taking the MC/8e Intelligent Async serial set. Not cheap postage, but they saved me from having to bin those nice old cards. Guy At 04:06 PM 23/11/2019 +1100, you wrote: >I'm clearing out some old stuff. These are free (but you pay postage) if >anyone wants them. >Catch: they are in Sydney Australia. > >--- > >Digital Communications Associates Inc. Circa 1985 >IRMAlink IRMA 2 3270 Micro-to-Mainframe communications >IRMA 2 supplies the personal computer with direct coaxial connection >to an IBM 3174, 3274, 3276 or Integral Terminal Controller with Type A >adapters. > >Includes two completes sets, each: card + documentation + 3 x 3.5" disks with >code and drivers. >Not in original packing. > >See http://everist.org/spacejunk/sell/irma.htm > >--- > >DigiBoard MC/8e Intelligent Async serial communications board (8 ports) Circa >1993 >One microchannel card plus octopus cable and manuals. Some manuals still in >sealed envelopes. > >In original packing > >See http://everist.org/spacejunk/sell/mc8e.htm > >--- > >Guy > >
Disposing: IBM Microchannel cards, for free
I'm clearing out some old stuff. These are free (but you pay postage) if anyone wants them. Catch: they are in Sydney Australia. --- Digital Communications Associates Inc. Circa 1985 IRMAlink IRMA 2 3270 Micro-to-Mainframe communications IRMA 2 supplies the personal computer with direct coaxial connection to an IBM 3174, 3274, 3276 or Integral Terminal Controller with Type A adapters. Includes two completes sets, each: card + documentation + 3 x 3.5" disks with code and drivers. Not in original packing. See http://everist.org/spacejunk/sell/irma.htm --- DigiBoard MC/8e Intelligent Async serial communications board (8 ports) Circa 1993 One microchannel card plus octopus cable and manuals. Some manuals still in sealed envelopes. In original packing See http://everist.org/spacejunk/sell/mc8e.htm --- Guy
Re: ge first transistors
At 10:09 AM 14/11/2019 +, ED SHARPE wrote: > >g11 for analog and g11a for digital and pulse >we have a G11A new in box unused with cellophane surround available respond >off list Pretty cool. Some pics down a way in this page: https://sites.google.com/site/transistorhistory/Home/us-semiconductor-manufacturers/general-electric-history
Re: swtpc.com expired???
For others like me, who are newcomers to this group: http://web.archive.org/web/20190616094729/http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/index.html I hope he's just having a nice fishing holiday or ocean cruise or something. That's the trouble with circles of 'net friends.' Without fallback physical contact lines, people (and their personal websites) can just disappear without anyone being able to find out what happened. Hopefully not premature: Wills should include notes on where to make announcements. Mail lists, social media, etc. And where and how to offer personal collections. Never leave this up to relatives, who usually dgaf about technological relics and have highly random ideas about preservation worth. Guy At 02:42 PM 6/11/2019 -0800, you wrote: >On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:15:01 -0500 >William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > >> Domain has been down for 7 days now. No reply to emails. Does anyone know >> anything? > >I looked it up and got this from "GoDaddy": > >--- >NOTICE: This domain name expired on 10/30/2019 and is pending renewal or >deletion. >--- > >Best, >Lyle > >-- >> >> -Original Message- >> From: William Sudbrink [mailto:wh.sudbr...@verizon.net] >> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2019 12:29 PM >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >> Subject: swtpc.com expired??? >> >> Anybody know if Mike Holley is OK? >> >> Bill S.
Re: Free font software
At 04:30 PM 3/11/2019 -0600, Bob Yates wrote: >Sorry don't know how to respond directly There's always the last resort of ctl-C copy and a text editor? >https://fontforge.github.io/en-US/ Have you (or anyone here) actually tried Fontforge? I had a go back in mid 2018, and then it seemed to be semi-abandoned, full of bugs, poorly documented and possibly unworkable. Or at least I fell off the 'learning cliff' and couldn't achieve what I wanted. Admittedly the subject is extremely complicated, so maybe it was just me and my 60+ year old brain. Gave up on Fontforge and decided to buy a commercial font utility (with real manuals) next time I have enough spare cash. (Which hasn't happened yet.) Guy
Re: Cheap minicomputer (Tracor-Northern 1610) on Facebook Markeplace (Allentown, PA) 18 bit?
Well, it's sold. I hope someone here hought it, and will post some better pics and details. If it had been near to me I'd have bought it instantly. A rack, a Tektronix XY display, a rack drawer, blanking panels, some neat mysterious instruments, two 8" floppy drives, and a probable PDP-something all for $45? Bet the various items are on slide rails too. How rare is it to get both parts of workable slide rails? Here in Oz, virtually unheard of. Separating slide halves and losing one half seems to be a near universal syndrome with people who part out test equipment. Guy (Australia) At 01:37 PM 2/11/2019 -0400, you wrote: >Indeed. I was thinking since it was a 16 bit bus but 18 bit switches >that it might be an 11/35 or 11/40 inside there. Interesting. > >On 11/2/2019 11:35 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/02/2019 03:32 AM, cctalk--- via cctalk wrote: >>> Has anyone seen this? It looks like an 18-bit machine. >>> >>> >>> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/736222363558907/ >> At least at one time, these things contained PDP-11's. The CPU at the >> bottom sure looks like a PDP-11, >> I'm thinking it might actually be a Cal-Data CPU (PDP-11 clone) with a >> custom logo. >> >> Jon >> >
Re: ECL static RAM ( 10144L)
At 08:53 PM 2/10/2019 -0500, you wrote: >I have 400 pieces of Signetics 10144L ECL static RAM chips. >Anybody need some? >These were salvaged from boards by a surplus dealer >(Alltronics, I think). >They are a 256 X 1 bit RAM, somewhere around 20 ns access >time, ceramic package. > >Jon I don't 'need' them, but would like them if no one else wants. Have the data, Motorola MCM10144. Some questions: * By 'salvaged' do you mean desoldered, or socket pulls with clean pins? * What are the legs like? Still maleable, or do they have pin rot? (in which corrosion under the plating makes the pins brittle and very easily breaking off.) * Whats the packing? Jumbled, in tubes, pinned in mat? Cost? Postage would be to LA, in CA.
Re: HP vintage boards being sold as scrap - WON
Yesterday: >These will go up on my site at http://everist.org/pics/pcbs Then promptly the web hosting server goes down, since this morning of 20190930 Tue in Australia. I don't yet know why, or have any estimate of when it will come back up. Guy
Re: HP vintage boards being sold as scrap - WON
Developments! I asked: >Alternatively, is there anyone on the US East coast who wants to play hold and >reship? Dan Veeneman in Maryland has volunteered. Thank you Dan! His web site: http://decodesystems.com is pretty cool, check it out. Assuming I can get the seller to ship the boards to Dan, what will happen is this: For each type of board, we'll have: - A good hi-res photo of one. - Note of any identifying numbers, version, etc. - Count of how many there are. - Notes of any individual damage, removed ICs, etc. - What we know of what they _are_, as this is discovered. These will go up on my site at http://everist.org/pics/pcbs Auction pics are there now. If you recognize any boards, please say so! Discussion about identifying boards, and who wants what, prices, etc, should be offlist via me: gu...@optusnet.com.au I don't expect to make a profit, just alleviate the cost somewhat. As boards are assigned, you can discuss postage cost and details with Dan. I'll give buyers his contact details, if you don't already have them from cctalk. Then people can arrange shipping details and post costs with him. He likely will want something for his efforts; that remains to be determined. He'll probably make some announcement about that, as it becomes clear what kind of effort will be involved. Guy
HP vintage boards being sold as scrap - WON
At 10:03 PM 27/09/2019 -0500, JRJ wrote: >Thanks for the tip. (Part of not recognizing that is that I had never >made the connection between the 2108B/2112B and the "1000" series >before, until I read about it in this thread, and did some poking >around. The HP's have not been one of my priorities in over a couple of >decades, and most of of that focus was on my older HP2114B.) > >JRJ That's always mystified me too. "1000 series" for model numbers like 2108B, 2112B, 2113E, etc. Weird corporate thinking. Maybe too much printed material with "1000" on to change? Or some other company had trademarked "2000 series" ? Anyway... I WON THE AUCTION. For US$306. Considering there are at least 12 of those DtoA cards, and apparently piles of HP 1000 boards besides the serial IO ones, it's not too bad. But I have to admit my max price was partly motivated by anti-gold-scrapper spite. My god those guys are dumb. Engaging in an incremental bidding war on ebay demonstrates a major mental deficit, given that there are more rational and effective avenues available. Game theory? Obviously they have never heard of it. >From their bid histories, others bidding up this lot (apart from Cindy) were >solely interested in the gold. I'm sticking to my view, that anyone engaged in routinely crushing antique computer boards for their gold content, is both amoral and stupid. So their retarded ebay bidding habits are no surprise. Bulk contemporary e-waste, like piles of dead cell phones, sure, go for it. But failing to recognise that boards from the 70s through 80s are now increasingly rare historical relics, is just inexcusable. Maybe would have been cheaper if this group hadn't put on so many item watchers, but that's life. If anyone is interested in what it's like to work with a bidsnipe service, I took screenshots. Now, for disposition... Zipped set of the 12 listing photos is here: http://everist.org/pics/pcbs/pics.zip 3.6MB I have notes of who already wants some boards. Anyone else who can identify specific boards and/or something they'd like, please email me. I really want to get all the boards identified, before onshipping them. Some might become giveaways or ebay fodder. Worst case I'll have to send them to my reshipper in LA, CA. I don't yet know if my reshipper is capable/willing to handle selecting boards and sending them to various destinations. And what they'd charge. I'll be asking them. Fingers crossed. If not, they'll all just have to come to me in Oz. But they can sit at the reshipper for months if that's useful. Maybe an alternative is for them to go to Cindy, to hold while we work out what they are and who wants some? Cindy, would you be willing to do that? Others would have to pay you for postage (+time), and me for whatever price is agreed on for the boards they want. I'm not greedy and don't expect to make a profit. Alternatively, is there anyone on the US East coast who wants to play hold and reship? Please be quick, I won't be able to hold them up at the seller's for long. I'm busy the rest of today, will start dealing with this tomorrow. Don't actually have enough cash to pay for this atm, but will by Wed/Thur. ie 2 to 3 days from now. Guy
Re: HP vintage boards being sold as scrap
At 05:42 PM 27/09/2019 -0700, you wrote: >On Sep 26, 2019, at 7:24 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk > wrote: >> >> 3. Just because you have different opinions doesn't mean their ways are >> wrong. Hell, they even seem to be willing to work with people interested in >> single boards. I'm sure they're putting "GOLD!!!" in the title for >> advertising's sake. It seems to have worked just fine for advertising here >> .. >> >> 4. Maybe just quit whining? If you can't get what you want where you are, >> to quote the immortal words of Dave McGuire, "Time to move!â > > >Destroying something thatâs useful in the name of a quick buck is wrong. > > -- Chris Thanks Cris. This is my view too, but I didn't want to get into _another_ argument about that. I've been browsing that seller's other listings. I can see where they are coming from. They are a very high volume surplus electronics seller. Quite a bit overpriced on many items but there are some nice deals. I think they just don't have time to give much attention to individual items. Which is unfortunate for interested parties. Like in this "90 lbs PCBs" instance. Here are some other vintage computing items of interest from that seller: 183963257634 Lot x22 NEW Vintage HP 46021A HP-HIL Terminal Keyboards Don't Include HIL Cables OH MY GOSH! It took me forever just to find one HP-HIL keyboard recently. But offering these vintage NOS keyboards as a lot of 22... that's a bit sad. Seller must be short of storage space. 174036823643 Lot x50 Vintage HP 82936A 80 Series 85A 85B 86A 86B ROM Drawer Holder No ROMs 183875053275 Vintage HP 12005-60010 Asynchronous Serial Interface Board 1000 Series Computer Back to the stack of circuit boards: The original bidder's offer is something higher than $150, so Cindy's bid got auto-bid beaten. Looking at that original bidder's ebay buying history, they're apparently a scrap gold buyer. At their activity rate, they've probably built up their rating of 394 fairly quickly. They don't snipe bid, and they do engage in bidding competitions. Ergo, that bidder is an idiot (or has money to burn), and also may still have an unrealistic expectation of the overall economics of gold recovery. Probably best to give up. Also since we've expressed interest to the seller, and piled on eleven watchers, the chances of the seller now fake bidding the price up are significant. Guy
RE: HP vintage boards being sold as scrap
At 06:08 PM 26/09/2019 -0700, you wrote: >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy >> Dunphy via cctalk >> Incidentally I've identified those boards. The ones with the pull rings: >> >> https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/ZrUAAOSwI5Fdg5KH/$_57.j >> pg >> >> They are 12/13 bit isolated DtoA, either voltage or current out. 44429A or >> 44430A. > >These are the current ones, recognizable by the blue 4 screw posts (the >voltage ones have 8 screw posts). So it would be a pile of 44430A. I have a >working HP 3497, so I could use one or two! >Marc Well, if I were to bid, I'd use my usual snipe service: https://www.bidnapper.com/ But the postage of US$159.91 (to CA) kills it for me. It wouldn't be much less to TX, and anyway I don't think ebay allows to specify some other shipping address. Plus I expect that even if he can be persuaded to pack responsibly, he'll want more money to do so. Cindy: >I have contacted the seller and asked what it would take to get these boards >ESD wrapped and properly packaged to me in TX. We will see if he is >willing... Please let us know if he responds usefully. Btw it's not so much ESD protection needed, more physical padding to avoid the boards grinding against each other in transport. Have you used a snipe bidding service? I recommend it. If you buy them, I'll take all the HP DtoA cards (minus 2 for Marc) and a couple of the HP 1000 serial cards, for US$130. Plus postage from you to CA. Payment by paypal. Does that sound OK to you? Then of course there is the question of what snipe bid would be likely to beat whatever that one existing bid is. I'd be inclined to guess that person has placed a minimal bid. People who bid early typically do that. Guy
RE: HP vintage boards being sold as scrap
At 04:46 PM 25/09/2019 -0500, you wrote: >If enough people want them, and someone gets a winning bid, then they can >come to me and I will repackage and ship them for the actual cost of >postage. > >Cindy Thanks for the kind offer. Where are you, relative to the seller? I can see a problem though. Isn't it impossible to have ebay-won items shipped to other than one's ebay-verified address? I'm not sure... I know to get things sent to my reshipper, I have to have them set as my 'real address' before bidding. That's why I asked if anyone is close enough to pick up the boards. Not to mention sidestepping the seller's problematical packing intentions. Guy >-Original Message- >From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy Dunphy >via cctalk >Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 4:01 PM >To: Brent Hilpert; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: HP vintage boards being sold as scrap > >At 12:00 PM 25/09/2019 -0700, you wrote: >>On 2019-Sep-25, at 3:07 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Does anyone else recognise some of the other boards? >> >> >>There is a stack of IO interface boards, including HSTs, for the HP >2100/1000 series there. >> >>Lower-right stack in this pic, 7 boards, boards have one red and one grey >handle: >> https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/n08AAOSwjY5dg5Kd/s-l1600.jpg >> >>"HS Terminal" is discernible on one of them, and the one on top looks to be >an HS Terminal as well. >>Can't be certain about the others but they have the same size IO connector, >they may all be HSTs. >> >>HSTs are the basic RS232 & current loop, async serial-line interface >boards, 12531D, used for the console and such in the 2100/1000 series, >>going back to the early machines of the series. >> >>(HS is 'High-Speed', but that's relative to the late-60s, billed for up to >2400bps, but it is possible to operate them at higher speeds). >> >>I'd buy one for, say 60$, if someone picks up the bunch and wants to flog >one. > > > >Sigh. And here I am putting together a rack with a HP 1000 system. >Though, some of those edge connectors look corroded. > >I really would like those DtoA boards. So many! I have both a 3497A and the >3498A extender >plus a need for lots of cards for them. Plus I have the service manual with >schematics >so can repair them. > >Anyway... the seller is listed as being in Warren, Rhode Island, United >States. >I'm in Australia, and have a reshipper in the US. BUT, the reshipper is on >the west coast. > >Is there anyone on this list who lives in that area who could pick them up, >then pack and post >small sets of boards? I can afford to bid (fingers crossed), but _can't_ >afford the postage >of "90 lbs" across the continent. Let alone to Australia. > >The one existing bid, is that anyone here? > >Guy > > >--- >This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >https://www.avast.com/antivirus > >
Re: HP vintage boards being sold as scrap
At 02:59 PM 25/09/2019 -0500, John wrote: >What, isn't anyone going to speculate on the value of the gold here? :-) The seller would seem to have been pulling rare boards from many old machines, probably scrapping the systems (since they would have been more saleable with the boards installed) then trying to sell the boards in bulk as scrap metal. If that's the case, I'd rather speculate on how many blows to the head with a blunt object, it would take to teach that person the error of their ways.
Re: HP vintage boards being sold as scrap
At 12:00 PM 25/09/2019 -0700, you wrote: >On 2019-Sep-25, at 3:07 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > >> Does anyone else recognise some of the other boards? > > >There is a stack of IO interface boards, including HSTs, for the HP 2100/1000 >series there. > >Lower-right stack in this pic, 7 boards, boards have one red and one grey >handle: > https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/n08AAOSwjY5dg5Kd/s-l1600.jpg > >"HS Terminal" is discernible on one of them, and the one on top looks to be an >HS Terminal as well. >Can't be certain about the others but they have the same size IO connector, >they may all be HSTs. > >HSTs are the basic RS232 & current loop, async serial-line interface boards, >12531D, used for the console and such in the 2100/1000 series, >going back to the early machines of the series. > >(HS is 'High-Speed', but that's relative to the late-60s, billed for up to >2400bps, but it is possible to operate them at higher speeds). > >I'd buy one for, say 60$, if someone picks up the bunch and wants to flog one. Sigh. And here I am putting together a rack with a HP 1000 system. Though, some of those edge connectors look corroded. I really would like those DtoA boards. So many! I have both a 3497A and the 3498A extender plus a need for lots of cards for them. Plus I have the service manual with schematics so can repair them. Anyway... the seller is listed as being in Warren, Rhode Island, United States. I'm in Australia, and have a reshipper in the US. BUT, the reshipper is on the west coast. Is there anyone on this list who lives in that area who could pick them up, then pack and post small sets of boards? I can afford to bid (fingers crossed), but _can't_ afford the postage of "90 lbs" across the continent. Let alone to Australia. The one existing bid, is that anyone here? Guy
RE: HP vintage boards being sold as scrap
At 02:29 AM 25/09/2019 -0400, you wrote: >I contacted the seller and was able to work out a very reasonable deal to >purchase a selected subset for my future needs. Oh, is that why the price dropped $50? Because some of the boards sold? So really the seller still has the same inflated idea of their worth (for gold.) How sensibly were they padded for shipping? It had seemed like the seller refused to treat them carefully. >You, or others, might consider doing the same if you have a specific >interest. (Rather than a general gripe :-}.) This time I'm not griping about the seller's attitude. It's even a reasonable price, hence there's a bid already. Though the "will be bulk packed" means buying them would involve a discussion about packing care. Incidentally I've identified those boards. The ones with the pull rings: https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/ZrUAAOSwI5Fdg5KH/$_57.jpg They are 12/13 bit isolated DtoA, either voltage or current out. 44429A or 44430A. And I _would_ make an offer for just them, except someone put a bid on the lot within ten minutes of it listing. So now he can't split the lot. (But I've asked if he would anyway.) Does anyone else recognise some of the other boards? Guy
Re: HP vintage boards being sold as scrap
At 05:38 PM 24/09/2019 -0500, Cindy wrote: >https://www.ebay.com/itm/174036836066 Sigh. A whole lot of HP 3497A data acquisition plugins (in the back there, with the pull rings): https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/ZrUAAOSwI5Fdg5KH/$_57.jpg Not sure which cards. Maybe optically isolated A/D or D/A? I have a 3497A. Oh well. This is going to be as frustrating as that other guy selling a huge box of HP cards for gold, for $600. https://www.ebay.com/itm/60-lbs-vintage-1970s-HP-interface-boards-gold-yellow-fingers-for-scrap-recovery/383039137321 Huh, didn't sell yet, what a surprise. And he's dropped the price a whole $50. Must have agonized over that. Guy
Re: Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation
At 04:59 PM 22/09/2019 -0500, Thomas Raguso wrote: >Update: I have also found IBM 500-series punch card equipment. If you find any full boxes of blank IBM punch cards, please mention. I might be able to afford postage on a few. > 1970s HP computers I'm probably going to cry when I see photos. (Because I'm in Australia.) Guy
Re: Ferroresonant transformer supply repair
It's good that these caps are so readily available. But on the other hand, I don't have any sort of power supply at all, for either of my two PDP 8/S machines. Sob. Being in a 240VAC mains country doesn't help, since I understand the original DEC supplies were 110VAC input only. But I'm not complaining. It's an easy problem to solve, once I get to it. Guy
Re: Ferroresonant transformer supply repair
At 04:54 PM 8/09/2019 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Kyle, > >On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 18:42:06 -0500 >Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > >> Has anyone replaced the capacitor in a ferroresonant power supply with much >> success? My current understanding is that the capacitor and transformer are >> mated as a pair, so replacing just one of them would require careful >> consideration. >> >> The PDP-8/I I'm working on has a 704A in it, with a GE 8uF 660V capacitor. >> It measures a couple of nF on my capacitor meter, and I was told by the >> previous owner that it's dead. > >We recently replaced the ferroresonant capacitor in a power supply on the CHM's >PDP-1. They do fail (thankfully, not often) - and they are not super-critical >as to value. If the one you're replacing has the same marked value, you should >be fine. > >Cheers, >Lyle >PDP-1 Restoration Team, CHM Yes, that's right. Find something with the same marked capacitance value. The rated voltage can be the same or higher. Be aware these are non-polarized caps, NOT electrolytics. They are typically paper, foil and oil. Best to find a new replacement, as many old-old oil- insulated caps will contain PCB (polychlorinated biphenyl) oil, which is severely carcinogenic. Banned, and must be disposed of as contaminated waste. Guy
Re: TRS-80 Fireworks
At 01:15 AM 28/08/2019 -0700, you wrote: >I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 computers, >and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? > >So far, I've gotten the fireworks in two out of two TRS-80s (model 3 and >4) when they were powered up. In both cases, the problem was with the >main line filter capacitor mounted on one of the power supplies. The >computers continued to work which was my first clue the problem was not >serious :). > >Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to seeing >the electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time I've seen >one of the X type line filter caps blow. An extremely common problem with all old electronics from around that era. The mains filter caps are commonly 'RIFA' brand metalized polyester film, encapsulated in a clear-honey-coloured resin. The problem is that the resin embrittles and shrinks with age, resulting in many small cracks. (And sometimes large pieces falling off.) The cracks let in moisture, which absorbs into the insulating film. When that inevitably fails the resulting arc eats away at the thin metalization film, vaporizing the adjacent plastic into foul-smelling greasy smoke. Often not enough mains current gets drawn to trip the breaker, so the arcing ruin may go on for some seconds - producing lots of smoke and stink. Also commonly destroying the component value markings, so you have to guess about a replacement. HP 62xx series bench power supplies have some RIFA caps and a circuit board inside a closed metal box containing the mains pre-regulator TRIAC. When those RIFAs blow the smoke condenses on everything inside the box. Cleaning that mess is really a pain. RIFA caps may be the most hated components in electronics. Even worse than dipped tantalums, popped electrolytics, and decaying urethane foam. Replace on sight. Before trying a power up. I was recently given a large pile of NIB (old) switchmode supplies of various sizes, all the same manufacturer. About a third have RIFA mains filter caps. Grrr... Guy
Re: OT: shortening eBay URLSs (Was: IBM PT-2
Or to just the item number: 253997593352 Assuming your browser is going to expand typing eb to ebay.com, then you enter the item number in the ebay search box. Guy At 08:45 PM 21/08/2019 -0700, you wrote: >A small off-topic trivial tip: >That URL can be reduced to: > >https://www.ebay.com/itm/253997593352 > >From 18 lines to 1, losing almost a thousand extraneous chracters. >(The stuff between itm/ and /auction number is not needed for the URL, nor >is the '?' and anything following.) >While the description before the auction number may be useful, the >appended stuff on the end isn't. > > >On Thu, 22 Aug 2019, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk wrote: > >> Anyone know anything about this?? >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-1980-IBM-PT-2-Computer-Hall-Effect-Magnet-Keyboard-w-Program-Test-Manuals/253997593352?hash=item3b236fb308&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&enc=AQAEAAADIKvsXIZtBqdkfsZsMtzFbFsbX3WcW5fmB%2Fx7ZbaZTyexIhK7W9VLgW%2BiANqra5tcLfLUvucq%2FWwy3JSlehkVi0H0TnsZ9x3lnT4M%2FNK0I23zl7BNBUVztS8698RExuOgZcHXO6v7FRUK%2BTMxC2BELPLkgdRvpFWMB9BbXQW1zu7SXs5SoLJrm3aR8m2kIhrt1aHBf3njB7KD9d70jXprDh7LYyoD6BlZOSFKMSelULNCkR06EvKg4bm5Hlj2kT9gzHObAbHnS4Dy725pF6f0MSjGs0nuvyw3P701B8pbREOy%2BFwa7KynI7p%2F%2FDZSd3NLb8aiylmIQvuIxdA2jf9NKjtjNK4OtBGLPK1kCinJtpG3edC%2Bg3zcgF%2BfyYqsWzgdaR5BLc7eWvxDvDJVYrc9GagH52%2BXriCUj815vLusAYJ4MLBZEf4SumlXsAzKamOO1YHDdAY5XcZWlbJj4%2BbUDYGiVYVey5jbU4p6AR07GBD1NZ9VxtZLXu3%2BrEvbDjS062zfupJn1OsyqxjkXo4S94QVavnXzvg%2BlbUU6igkijeh8tFnsqvD9YBuGYX5BkjQbg7rxOMS9orHpRd28wEsc%2BFknJ71Lz6aCnlB4RpAZbiHprxzhMYckTqYLMAMhmYF92p5vdMYFd9gFN7jkUHKQPMgwjpZpGHrg3UeEEMrPI%2FlDEtwSC0tQBwpD4phxoid3H8rPCpQ3eavJ7UwJUNfXV5k5unTOHwY%2BxT0TTtCCfqMJXqRNMNJkokBK375vCSohk1GexkbC7vvHsB2jB 6fh6s jqYTUk4JuzulLDCGrCvZaKBAW9PF8L4%2F%2BDs1N20TwMxOhigqK0TPCWMRT0CPP5lk%2BiqRoJcY0jxsLoQ%2ByEoxMik5Mf5jqeAbaFw6Sg9lXG45gGwa7JiO3kQ7W6reG3LKEMsC2kmLq8q%2BtL%2FvK9aA0gP9in9SIXNZr%2Bh40fnoMD4rS%2Bpki8If24eqaAsA75pDMYNjIgFr85VGRhiHR3g7ymKQ3%2BHET6pyCnW0pt677L6Ggah3K%2BrNu1BSYjdMm3dfFPTWvNtdFRfaBNIweNSEM&checksum=25399759335250961bc599bf4c1a8a1422d41778b250 >
Re: Identification of an HP minicomputer
Hi Guy, If you didn't see this, it may be of interest: http://everist.org/NobLog/20131112_HP_1000_minicomputer_teardown.htm It won't help you identify your system model, but could be of help with disassembly. Funny coincidence that we have the same name, and similar HP-1000 minicomputers. Sigh... 2019 slips by, and I still haven't returned to that project. Guy At 02:52 PM 12/08/2019 -0700, you wrote: >Hi, > >I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that Iâm trying to >identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of >configuration it might have). > >As far as I can tell, itâs an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should >hopefully get us *some* details). The âasset tagâ lists the part number >as 2113023-108. Looking at the back thereâs space for 9 I/O cards (5 are >occupied). > >So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell >(for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). > >Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at >the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I canât tell whatâs >there and Iâd like to see if thereâs a way to determine what this is >without resorting to disassembly. > >Thanks. > >TTFN - Guy
Re: I'm sharing a toy
At 10:18 PM 7/08/2019 -0700, you wrote: >https://mvsevm.fsf.net >Adam WELCOME TO THE ANCIENT COMPUTER MVSEVM All systems are emulated, on Raspberry Pi and Linux. 1: Multics MR 12.6f (Honeywell 6800 DPS-8/M) 2: TOPS-20 7.1 (PDP-10 KL-10) 3: TOPS-10 7.03 (PDP-10 KA-10) 4: ITS (PDP-10 KA-10) 5: OpenVMS 7.3 (MicroVAX 3900) 6: Unix v7 (PDP-11/70) 7: Unix 2.11bsd (PDP-11/70) That's very nice. Though atm my interests are web front-end dev related, and so for me the nicest part is this: gotty-bundle.js325 KB Minified xterm.css 35 KB >From xterm.css : * xterm.js: xterm, in the browser * https://github.com/chjj/term.js * Originally forked from (with the author's permission): * Fabrice Bellard's javascript vt100 for jslinux: * http://bellard.org/jslinux/ https://github.com/chjj/term.js term.js ( Latest commit Jun 6, 2016 ) A full xterm clone written in javascript. Used by tty.js. --> https://github.com/chjj/tty.js This project is no longer maintained. For a maintained fork take a look at sourcelair/xterm.js. --> https://github.com/sourcelair/xterm.js A fascinating rabbit hole! Guy
Re: RSTS/RSX manuals available in the UK
Adrian, what order of volume and weight are these? I'm definitely interested, from a general preservation viewpoint, also a personal interest in lesser-known OS. And I have some PDP-11 systems to restore and play with. However I'm in Australia... Britain has a nice 'media mail' option - I buy 2nd hand books from British abebooks.com dealers, and postage to Australia is very cheap. But could that extend to these manuals? What box size? Could you send a photo or two? Btw, can anyone suggest links to overviews of DEC (and other?) operating systems evolution and influence over time? Regards, Guy http://everist.org/NobLog/ At 11:04 PM 6/08/2019 +0100, you wrote: >Hi folks, > >I've held onto this collection of manuals for the last 3 years and now they >really need to go because I'm having to move house in the next 2-3 months, my >landlady is selling up. I thought it was too good to be true being in this >house for 7.5 years! > >The RSTS manuals are V10 (1990) and there's 3 RSX-11M V4 as well as RSX >DECNET. I don't have the time to scan them myself otherwise I would've done >ages ago. > >I'm heading past Jim Austin's place in a couple of weeks' time so if nobody >else is interested I can drop them off there if he's up for it. > >Cheers, > >-- >adrian/witchy >Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? >t: @binarydinosaursf: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs >w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
Re: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?)
At 07:07 PM 23/07/2019 -0700, you wrote: >Nonetheless, comparing some small amount of lost information It's not a 'small amount of lost information', because destroying rare technical works in order to scan them, or afterwards because "now they are scanned there's no need to keep the paper copy" is a widespread practice. Very many works in original form are being lost because of this. >to genocide, which is a real thing that has happened and is still happening in >the world today, > and which has affected people on the list and those they are close to, is > more than a bit offensive. Let me tell you about my wife. She's Cambodian, and very barely lived through the Pol Pot genocide in Cambodia. Many of her family and relatives didn't make it. The Khmer Rouge were mostly insane, as a result of the secret US bombing campaign, in which they napalmed every Cambodian country village they could spot. So virtually all country folk in Cambodia had lost people close to them to poisonous fire from the sky. (Napalm contains phosphorus, can't be extinguished, and even if you only get a few spots on you and survive the burning, you die slowly of phosphorus poisoning.) The countryside people were virtually all uneducated and knew nothing of the outside world, and had no idea why this was happening. In this context the Khmer Rouge arose, with the central creed being that Cambodia had to be purged, since all 'foreign influences' equated to the burning from the sky. By 'purged' they meant _everything_ and _everyone_ with any trace of foreign influence. That included all the people in the major cities, since they spoke with foreign (French, Chinese) accents among other things. It also meant all machines and books. Did you know sewing machines are evil? No? Well they were to the Khmer Rouge, so they destroyed them all. As a result my future wife (from Phnom Phen) spent several years on sub-starvation diet, only kept alive in a camp because she could hand-sew uniforms for the Khmer Rouge. As in needle and thread only. I guess needles and scissors were not considered 'machines'. Ditto rifles. They weren't big on logical consistency. The camps were intended as temporary people storage, while they sorted out who to kill. Almost everyone, though there was a lot of mission drift. They didn't have enough bullets, so the daily killings were done via simpler, zero cost means. A common method was for three people to kill one. Two held the victim's arms back, pulling them against a tree trunk. The third sawed through the victim's throat with the edge of a palm frond. This happened very often, daily. We met and married here in Australia, had a family etc. Wonderful person. But her past haunted her and she slowly developed PTSD. Is far from who she once was. This is why I dislike the practice of destroying things (information and still useful tech-tools) for reasons that seem sensible to some, but are fundamentally superficial consequences of social fads and groupthink. It's a mindset - destroying old things, and destroying people, go hand in hand. If you can justify one, the other maybe too. >Please be more considerate of this and, as was suggested by the person whose >correspondence you posted, >examine your sense of scale. My sense of scale is OK I think. There was a major global human genetic bottleneck around 12,000 years ago, probably caused by the metorite impact that left the Hiawatha crater in Greenland. That one nearly wiped us out. About 30,000 years ago 'something' caused a mega-tsunami that washed right across the north end of the southern island of New Zealand, creating the 'buried kauri forests' effect. There was a relatively high-tech civilization in the Mediteranean area sometime around 300BC, that made the Antikythera Mechanism - that one required mathematics, accurate astronomy, metalurgy and precision machine tools, plus all the necessary cultural support. Completely lost. The Umm al Binni lake (in Al Amarah marshes of southern Iraq, approximately 45 km northwest of the Tigris-Euphrates confluence) is believed to be a Holocene (8,000 BC to present) impact crater. There are traces in ancient texts of a prior civilization in that area that was apparently completely wiped out. Just a few of a long list of dramatic natural events in quite recent times, very little known by the public. Currently humans have achieved a pretty nice level of technological capability. But few understand how fragile that is, and what kinds of events could crash it back to primitive levels. Very very few are aware of factors like tech being not easily restartable, since we've used up all the easily mined resources, now running on ores and energy sources that require existing high tech. Almost no one is aware of the long-life isotope stocks issue, that could make a technological collapse permanent for many millions of years, by raising background environmental radiation worldwide to levels
RE: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?)
At 07:16 PM 22/07/2019 +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: >> BTW. I have three IBM 026 card punch machines as a future restoration >> project. But can I find >> a service manual? No. None online, only one for the later 028. And even if >> there was a PDF >Have you seen these: >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/A24-0520-2_24-26_Keypunches.pdf >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/225-6535-5_24-Base_Machines_FEMM_Dec65.pdf >http://ibm-1401.info/IBM-026-Wiring-228005P.html Last time I looked, in Sept 2018 I had previously found: http://www.righto.com/2017/12/repairing-1960s-era-ibm-keypunch.html https://www.flickr.com/photos/pfsullivan_1056/16296856470 http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/029/225-3357-3_29_FE_Maint_Man_Nov70.pdf Bitsavers has a user manual: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/A24-0520-2_24-26_Keypunches.pdf And a field manual: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/225-6535-5_24-Base_Machines_FEMM_Dec65.pdf But no schematics still. Your first URL is 404'd, though I already had that doc. Seems there's been a tree structure re-org. Now there's these: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/024-026/ 123-7091-3_24_25_Parts_Catalog_Apr1963.pdf 225-6535-5_24-Base_Machines_FEMM_Dec65.pdf 22-8319-0_24_26_Customer_Engineering_Preliminary_Manual_of_Instruction_1950.pdf 229-3125_24-26_Operators_Guide.pdf A24-0520-3_24_26_Card_Punch_Reference_Manual_Oct1965.pdf Downloaded. Looks like a good complete set, for mechanicals. Still no overall schematic. Maybe it didn't exist? Gosh it's a scary-complicated machine. I'm not looking forward to finding the gotchas, like obscure parts buried deep in the guts that have perished rubber bits, complex precision surface-hardened things that are just plain worn out and unobtainium, etc. >> I expect it would be the usual terrible quality. Pleasant surprise! The image quality of all those PDFs is pretty good. But all still a mix of 2-tone and JPG encoding, with all their various artifacts. Fortunately at high enough res to preserve all information. High enough even to (mostly) preserve the ink screening dots in images. I'd still like to find original paper copies, both as a historical set with the machines, and to scan-encode-wrap 'my way' for better looking digital versions. >> Ditto for a service/schematics manual for the Documation TM200 punch card >> reader. No copy can be found. >Do you expect the TM200 to be substantially different from the M200? My guess >is that they are quite similar. > Gone down the route of reverese engineering the differences? The TM200 has extra circuitry (more cards, wiring) than the M200, since it also reads optical mark-sense cards. Which means if ultimately I'm forced to reverse engineer the diferences, it's going to be a lot of work. There's no rush and plenty of other projects. I'd rather just wait more to see if a correct manual turns up. Not to mention that I'd like to find that manual in order to scan it. Guy
Re: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?)
At 10:41 AM 21/07/2019 -0600, you wrote: On Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 4:16 AM Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: >I'd suggest that in 2019 when bits are cheap and high-quality scanners >nearly as cheap, "crappy quality digital image" is a bit of a straw man. >Yes, I've seen plenty of barely-readable or practically unreadable scans, >but they were made years or decades ago. There are still plenty of bad scans being done today, for various reasons. The technology of producing a final digital copy continues to improve and has a way to go yet. *This* is why I strongly oppose destroying rare docs to scan them, now. Better to wait till non-destructive scanning methods become available. >What dpi qualifies as not "crappy"? 300dpi? 400? 600? Points: 1. Both the DPI and bits/pixel affect the visual result. Having shaded pixels on curved edges makes the eye see a smooth curve, where the same resolution in two-tone (B&W) would look jagged. Achieving an optimal balance of resolution and shading levels for various types of content and fineness of detail, vs file size, is a bit of an art. But ultimately it's a simple test: look at the paper original, and your final result on screen (at 1:1 final scale.) Does the quality look the same? Is your copy how the original publisher would have wanted the doc to appear? People only auto-producing PDFs rarely catch on to this, because PDF ONLY encodes as one of: two-tone B&W (fax mode), or JPG (or JPEG2000 rarely) or the excreable JBIG2 (Never use this!) Experiment with PNG encoding, via a tool like Irfanview, which allows flexibly setting PNG bits/pixel, raw, indexed color or gray scale. PNG is a lossless encoding, and so the only resolution loss is by your choice while rescaling in post-processing. 2. The resolution you scan at, and the final presentation resolution, won't be the same. Especially when the pages include elements like screened color or B&W images. To deal with these properly you MUST scan at a resolution several times higher than the screen dot pitch. Otherwise there will be moire patterns (beats) between the scan sampling and the screening dots. Then you post-process to eliminate the screening, and end up with a truly tonal image at the resolution the eye would perceive when viewing the original screened image. This avoids any moire patterning, realizes the original publisher's visual intent, and enables minimizing the final file data size. B&W text should be encoded with at least 16 gray levels available to edge shading. ie 4 bits/pixel. B&W tonal images need at least 256 level gray scale, or the eye sees quantization of shades (aka posterization.) Colour images need either 24 bit/px, ie 8 bits each for RGB, or if there are a limited number of flat colours an indexed color scheme may work. 256 colors or less, ie an 8 bit index per pixel. Typical utilities will generate the color table automatically (which can sometimes ba a pain.) PDF does not allow any of these kind of user choices. 3. The final page images, don't have a 'dots per inch' dimension. They have only total number of pixels in H & V. When doing final page image down-scaling and choice of encoding, you have to make an aesthetic decision on final pixel dimensions. If your original page was A4 (8.5" wide) and you scanned at 600 DPI, that's 5100 pixels wide. But you'll likely find that the final copy can be scaled to around 1000 to 1200 pixels wide, with 4 bits/px (if B&W text), for an on-screen page image indistinguishable from the original. 4. All post processing should be done in 24 bit RGB, at the full scan resolution. Keep staged backups. NEVER use any indexed color scheme when scaling, rotating, etc. The result is unavoidably bad. The final two steps should be: rescale to desided X-Y pixel size, THEN down-code to final color system and file encoding. There's a discussion of this in http://everist.org/temp/On_scanning.htm In general, 'acceptable' resolution VERY MUCH depends on the content. >I just scanned my Rainbow 100 User's Manual at 300, 600 and 1200dpi using the >scansnap default settings. You see a jump between 300 and 600, but little >difference going on up to 1200 for this material. I posted the 300dpi results >and even they are acceptable. Some of the diagrams look heavier than the >600dpi version and at high zoom you see pixelated letters, where the 600 >doesn't. The 1200 is hard to see any big difference and takes 4x as long to >scan. I think I'll be scanning the remaining rainbow docs at 600dpi. The file >is 22MB vs 12MB, so that's worth it. The 1200dpi version was almost 70MB which >is starting to get a bit large for a 60 sheet document. The sweet spot seems >to be 600dpu, at least for this material. Just wondering if you're aware of the freeware util Irfanview? https://www.irfanview.com/ It's very capable for batch processing large sets of images. Rescaling, cha
Re: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?)
At 12:48 AM 22/07/2019 -0600, you wrote: >On 7/21/2019 8:07 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > >> BTW. I have three IBM 026 card punch machines as a future restoration >> project. But can I find >> a service manual? No. None online, only one for the later 028. And even if >> there was a PDF >> I expect it would be the usual terrible quality. >> Does anyone have a physical copy they would sell? Or as my last resort, loan? >> >> Ditto for a service/schematics manual for the Documation TM200 punch card >> reader. No copy can be found. > >I keep thinking, Do you have PUNCH CARDS for that project? :) Yes. Two boxes of blank cards, and about half a box of some punched ones. Also thanks to a kind gift, a card gauge and a card saw. (No, I didn't know card saws existed either.) And some boxes of blank paper tape rolls for the tape reader/punches - another project. I'm on the lookout for more boxes of blank cards btw. Guy
RE: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?)
At 07:58 PM 21/07/2019 -0700, you wrote: >> Even if the digital version _did_ fully capture the information content, I >> strongly dispute that the physical item/document has lost it's value. >> That 'digital is all we need' viewpoint is a trap for the naive, because: > >. . . and does it FULLY capture the information content. One might >think so, but much later, somebody asks, "in the number on page 576, is >that a '3' or an '8'?" >There is always the possibility of a need to go back to prior, or even >original forms. Even worse, are you aware of the JBIG2 image compression debacle? Ref at bottom of http://everist.org/NobLog/20130904_Retarded_ideas_in_comp_sci.htm and http://everist.org/NobLog/20131122_an_actual_knob.htm#jbig2 Note this monster is one of the built-in 'features' of PDF. But not PNG. Sounds like lawyers will be disputing whether anything encoded with JBIG2 can be accepted as evidence in court. >Many arguments are actually based on inadequaate definition of terms. Two >people who might actually agree argue based on having different >definitions. > >For example, cutting the spine off of a book can definitely be considered >to be DAMAGING the artifact. But do we want to consider that >"DESTROYING"? It's gray. Bear in mind that loose pages can be lost, or got out of order. And the 'book-nature' is gone. But if you punched and ring-bound them? It's not really important to argue this. Partly because in many cases of spine-removal, the intentionally pages WILL be destroyed afterwards. >Certainly landfilling once something is scanned is "DESTROYING" (although >what was the final result of the landfill salvage of those game >cartridges?) >But putting the book back on a shelf, without its spine? Ha, I have a few old books that have fallen apart on their own, and are on shelves in ziplock plastic bags. They're urgent scans. Maybe I might try repairing them. Years ago I had a treasured childhood book rebound professionally after the spine disintegrated. The Jungle Book, by Kipling. The original before Hollywood ruined it. With illustrations by M & E Detmold. Published 1922. >That may seriously damage cultural aspects, but not necessarily the >informational value. >And, admittedly, there can be some corner cases, such as if slicing off >the binding lost notes scribbled in the margins by an important prior >owner. And ultimately a really old work might become fragments in plastic folders, or palimpsets being x-rayed to recover earlier impressions. But don't let extreme cases divert you from dealing sensibly with the usual circumstances. >Oh, and when you die, your executor may be quick to discard all of those >unbound books. When I die, contact my sister, bring a skip, and offer to >do all of the hauling for her at a lower rate than any of the commercial >services charge. > >At some point, most collections end up in the hands of "administrators" >with no appreciation for the materials. "And, it is certainly not worth >the cost to keep all of this crap!" Yes, this is the biggest problem, in a society in which so few value history. Hard to find trustworthy heirs for collections. Even hampered by the laws. So often the widow just tosses everything, or at best sells it off in bits without much care or understanding. I can think of several examples I've known. Ah well. Hurry up with the immortality tech, I say. Those telomeres aren't going to lengthen themselves. >Another example to keep bringing up - >BBC did not think that there would be any further need of the already >aired Dostor Who episodes, and could reuse the tape. Besides, "some other >department has copies of all of them". There's 100 episodes for which NO >copies have been found. It's a big deal when a 16mm B&W print is found >in a shed in the outback, or even home 8mm movies of the living room TV >screen. In Sydney, a major national TV station (Channel 7, in Epping) had an enormous archive of video master tapes. They held all the culturally iconic Australian broadcasts since the beginning of Television here. I had a friend who worked there. After the place shut down (they moved) and the site sat abandoned for a while, I was among many who enjoyed exploring it. There was a tennis court, in a sort of gulley near the buildings. It had a strange subsidence crack across the middle of the court. My friend told me the story. Beancounters in the company had decided the tapes archive was a waste of resources. So they had the entire contents dumped into that gulley, then covered over with dirt and a tennis court built on top. The site was later sold and built over with hi-rise units. There's also the story of the Apollo program video tapes. NASA threw out or taped over all the orignals. They also deliberately destroyed all the engineering drawings for the Saturn 5. Only by remarkable luck did most of the video recordings survive, and have since been digitized. Guy
RE: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?)
At 01:48 AM 21/07/2019 -0400, Paul Birkel wrote: >If I may summarize/generalize, Guy, I think that your point is that there >are Technical Artifacts and there are Cultural Artifacts -- and the two sets >overlap to some degree. Where the overlap lies is subject to great debate, >IMO. Indeed. Complicating factors are: * Technical artifacts/documents can be essential tools, required to maintain other things, of either interest, or actual critical dependencies of activities. * The boundary of what tech items are *important* can shift depending on large scale economic/cultural events. In certain potentially possible future scenarios, they may shift a *lot*. Someone jokingly mentioned the 'John Titor searching for a specific old computer' legend, but such scenarios (minus the time travel) are quite conceivable. * As opposed to cultural items, tech items have an extra attribute: still works or not. Which is very important. Unless they are demonstrably working, understanding of their functions and use can become mythologised, and lose veracity and context. These are much less likely to apply to purely cultural artefacts. No one is going to die, or starve, or whatever, if say the Mona Lisa was lost. I recommend a book "The collapse of complex societies" by Tainter. >Most of us probably wouldn't destroy a Cultural Artifact (e.g., Taliban >destruction of Buddha of Bamiyan statue) but many might destroy a Technical >Artifact in the belief that its overt information content defines its value, >and that one that value has been captured digitally the Technical Artifact >effectively lives on in that form. The corpus is merely that ... Even if the digital version _did_ fully capture the information content, I strongly dispute that the physical item/document has lost it's value. That 'digital is all we need' viewpoint is a trap for the naive, because: 1. No one can ever fully trust the validity of any digital work. Trusting such things to be 'true' demonstrates a foolish assumption that there are no hostile actors, who'd ever wish to deceive and mislead. (Shows a collossal blindness to historical reality, and contemporary politics.) 2. Relying on digital records assumes that the human race will never have any kind of 'technical interruption', in which digital storage hardware can't be maintained, with the necessary continual refreshing and updating. Ever tried to get a 20 year old hard disk going and recover the data? _Sometimes_ it's possible, if it was stored in perfect conditions. Flash memory, EPROMS, CDs, DVDs, etc, all are ephemeral. >At what point do you believe that a "mere" Technical Artifact becomes a >Cultural one -- where the latter presumptively comes accompanied by a >Requirement to Preserve? Now we get to a critical point. There's no chance of defining any specific cutoff criteria. It's a question on which everyone will always differ. And this is why 'centralization is bad.' If remaining technical historical artefacts/books are allowed to be gathered into central archives, then it's only a matter of time before those items will be destroyed. Accidents, deliberate subversion, stupidity, financial upsets, natural disasters... But most often by some official unilaterally deciding 'these items are not worth preserving.' Museums are OK, and it's good to make things publicly viewable, but only if there are _many_. The best way to preserve any kind of history (tech or cultural) is for the physical items to remain many and well distributed among private individuals who value them. Then even in the event of some kind of widespread pogrom (not inconceivable with today's insane Leftist herd mentality developments) there will be people who quietly preserve things. In such times any kind of public museum/library institutions are toast. (And btw my wife lived through the Pol Pot genocide in Cambodia, don't argue with me on this one. Or I will tell you some stories that will give you nightmares.) The necessity to preserve multiple redundancy, is why destroying a hardcopy of a 'rare-ish' manual in order to scan it, is so bad. Especially when the tendency to do that has become widespread, so there's a high rate of attrition of whatever do remain in private hands. >Being the "last known survivor" of a particular piece of hardcopy seems both >an inadequate basis for determination in general, and operationally it's a >pretty weak method since "last known" becomes dependent on a Registry of >sorts (and likely requires good provenance to preclude forgeries, else >expect a flood of ACTUAL TELETYPE REPORT OF APOLLO MOON LANDING ... :->). There can never be such a registry, and even to try making one would be unwise since it just creates a 'burn list' for anyone who decided to wipe parts of history. The term 'last known survivor' is short hand for 'Gee I can't find any references to others of this item/book.' There prob
Re: Scanning Results
At 03:57 PM 21/07/2019 -0600, you wrote: >On 7/21/2019 9:04 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > >> Starting again with the clean full size scan, reduce to 1200 x 1620, (a good >> screen size) >> and 8 bit/px indexed. (Adequate for this page.) Saved file size: 339 KB. >>File: 7903_07_1200_8.png > >Umm I am running 800 x 600 here. I have gone back to smaller >screen since FireFox seems to displaying TINY FONTS all the time. You know all browsers and PDF utils have adjustable zoom, right? Pretty sure you can also set the default zoom. And in many cases can specify 'fit page to screen.' Maybe that's why your tiny fonts problem? Anyway, not relevant. I should have been more precise. 1200 H px is a good resolution for presenting text pages since it adequately preserves typical fonts. 1000 is still just OK, 800 is bare minimum, fails for fine print. Much higher than 1200 is overkill, though if you want to, why not... With finer diagrams higher res can be necessary. >I like 80x20 screen sized TEXT. Also different pdf viewers display >differently. I read my PDF on Android PDF reader and not every thing >displays in the default reader. > >Umm 74170 ... TTL data book, turn on reader ... look up part.. Btw, when you're doing parts lookup a lot, a 2nd screen is a great boon. If you're using a desktop machine. Guy
Re: Scanning Results
At 09:05 PM 20/07/2019 -0700, Al wrote: > >> I wish I knew why ISO and Adobe never updated PDF to include PNG images. > >The pdf format supports png just fine. Oh does it! The texts say it doesn't, and it definitely didn't originally. Maybe the change is in one of the more recent ISO standards since ISO 32000-1:2008 ? (That cost many hundreds of dollars so I don't have them.) >A modified version of Eric Smith's tumble accepts png as input. I hadn't heard of that one. Something to have a look at. My, google tries *really* hard to make me look at 'Eric Smith tumblr' But actually: http://tumble.brouhaha.com/ No mention there of PNG files, as of 2017. https://github.com/brouhaha/tumble Last update Dec 2017. Says: README: tumble: build a PDF file from image files Copyright 2003-2017 Eric Smith Tumble is a utility to construct PDF files from one or more image files. Supported input image file formats are JPEG, and black and white TIFF (single- or multi-page). Black and white images will be encoded in the PDF output using lossless Group 4 fax compression (ITU-T recommendation T.6). This provides a very good compression ratio for text and line art. JPEG images will be preserved with the original coding. The current version of Tumble will only work on little-endian systems, such as x86, VAX, and Alpha. The byte order dependencies will be fixed in a later release. Still no mention of PNG. Modied by who/where? Do you have a link? The ISO 32000-1:2008 in Table 6 defines the PDF compression methods, that can be applied to 'streams' (ie binary data blocks, including images.) See PDF_32000_2008_table_6_700_gray_16.png This and other files mentioned below, at http://everist.org/png-pdf Point being, that PDF internally does not allow foreign image encodings, otherwise how would PDF viewers deal with them? You can pass a PDF constructor an image in any format the constructor can understand, then it will re-encode using one of the defined PDF stream compression methods. Or you can use a pure binary stream 'attachment', but then the reader doesn't know it's an image. >The Tektronix color catalog scans on bitsavers were scanned as pngs Looking at this one (because it's one I happened to pick a paper copy off my shelf): http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/catalog/Tektronix_Catalog_1975.pdf Taking page physical 52, PDF #58 (Because I like Tek 7903 scopes) The photoshop CS6 extraction of that page from the PDF is 2550 x 3296 px. I saved it as PNG 24 bit, file size is 6,744 KB. File Tektronix_Catalog_1975-58.png This is not the compressed image size inside the pdf. Without a PDF analysis tool that would be really tedious to determine. Ditto the compression format. Of course Photoshop is not going to tell you. Enlarging in photoshop, the image has definitely been JPG encoded in the PDF, as it has the typical JPG edge noise on characters. File image_jpg_artifacts.png No way your scanner produced that. Important point there. You may have passed your PDF creator a PNG image, but in the PDF it was re-encoded as JPG. Other issues: * Bleed through of print on other side of paper. Cure: Use a black backing sheet. * A lot of shading in the 'white' paper. Inflates file size. Cure: set scanner curves correctly. * Plenty of specking. Cure: scanner curve, plus manual touchup in photoshop. * The crop frame is off the page edges. I scanned the same page from my paper copy, at 300 DPI, black backing, to PNG-24. Result: file 7903_02.png 3221 x 4349 px. File 5,249 KB (BTW 300 DPI is a bit too little for the screened images.) Notice higher res compared to the PDF image, but already smaller file. Just by having cleaner 'white'. Did manual touchup in photoshop. Mostly to get rid of some remaining shading & specks in white. Summary: select color ranges of black and blue text, add a block for the image, expand 2 px, invert sel, fill with pure white. Paint a few remaining specks. Select the screened image block, blur 1.8 px radius to kill screening dots. Yes, I'm aware this is tedious, and no I don't know of a way to automate it. Because it needs to be fine tuned every time. So I'm also aware this is not practical for bulk scanning. Just demonstrating contrasts. Then scale to 2550 H. (vert now 3443, different due to PDF vers wider crop.) Save as PNG 24 bit. File: 3,675 KB. file: 7903_06_2550_24.png Vastly better quality than the PDF version, already about half the file size. If the page was only black text, we could now save in PNG 4 bits/px grayscale. But it has color and and shaded image. So choose 8 bit/px indexed. File: 7903_06_2550_8.png Absolutely no visible difference, but now the saved file is reduced to 1,058 KB. Starting again with the clean full size scan, reduce to 1200 x 1620, (a good screen size) and 8 bit/px indexed. (Adequate for this page.) Saved file size: 339 KB. File: 7903_07_1200_8.png Btw, I don't suppose anyone has a copy of a ut
Re: Scanning Results
At 11:41 PM 19/07/2019 -0600, you wrote: >OK. I've done the first of the manuals I have. Thanks for all the helpful >hints. > >I took apart the Rainbow User's Manual's metal spiral spine. I scanned it >with scansnap and ran it through the indexing function. I think I tweaked >the settings in a reasonable way. > >The results look good to my eye, but I'm not 100% sure, so I thought I'd >post it here for feedback: > >https://people.freebsd.org/~imp/EK-P100E-OM-001_Rainbow_100_Owner's_Manual-Nov-1982.pdf Congratulations, that is nicely done. I like the way you took the trouble to keep the purple ink on some page's LED diagrams, and the cover images. I'm not fond of that two-tone encoding of B&W text, but that is an artifact of PDF. (Unless you go to ridiculous bits/pixel formats, ie large file sizes.) Since PDF does not allow inclusion of images encoded as PNG. And PNG does the best B&W text image compression, in run-length encoded 4 bits/pixel grayscale. Which preserves character and line edges very nicely, while still achieving better file compression. I wish I knew why ISO and Adobe never updated PDF to include PNG images. It's one of the worst failings in PDF. Just that one alone makes PDF unacceptable. :) Maybe because trying to type the right one (PDF vs PNG) is really error prone? When you scanned the pages, what was the raw save format? (If any.) If it was any format like RGB/24, or indexed 256 color, did you keep the raw files? >Second, how do I submit this to bitkeepers? I've looked around and don't >see how. maybe I'm just being blind... http://www.bitsavers.org/bitkeepers is something else. The site's contact email is right down the bottom of the front page. Visual, to stop spambots. Also Al posts here in cctalk. Guy
RE: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?)
I'm posting a private email (anonymized) and my reply because it's a
significant issue.
>{Note private reply}
>
>> When the scanning process involves destruction of the original work
>> ... But if it's a rare document, or even maybe so rare that it's the
>> last one, then destroying it now just to produce a digital copy
>> inadequate to the aims of cultural preservation - that's a crime.
>> One right up there with genocide
>
>While I agree that making a non-optimal digital copy in such cases, is,
>well, non-optimal (because for _many uses_, the basic information is still
>available, wheras for many important documents, not even that remains),
>there's no way it's "right up there with genocide" - and if you really
>think so, you definitely need to examine your sense of scale, because it's
>seriously defective.
>
> [name removed]
I agree that when historical documents are lost without even any kind of
digital copy made, that's the worst.
However I was pretty careful to preceded that quoted paragraph with
conditionals.
Specifically referring to a case where someone has a rare work, that isn't
in danger of falling apart, and there's no good reason why they couldn't
wait till better scanning methods became available, and they destroy it to
produce a crappy quality digital image. Thus ensuring there can never be
a high quality digital copy and the rare physical original is forever gone.
That's criminal. A high level crime against humankind. Where it's done in
bulk to entire collections, it _is_ the cultural equivalent of genocide.
I don't care if you disagree.
Could it be that you are upset because you do this (destroy docs), and don't
like to be accused of being a criminal?
I am sure that the future WON'T take your position on this. They are going
to be sooo pissed, that so many old works were destroyed and all they have
left is crappy quality horrible-looking two-tone scans.
This is _already_ the case with many electronics instrument manuals. There are
so many people who think that the physical manuscript is unimportant, and
nothing
matters other than posting a minimally readable smallest-possible-file online,
with the least effort and so it's OK to destroy the original for convenience.
Private reply noted. Still going to repost on the list, as from anon.
Guy
RE: Scanning question
>> Have a look at >> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aura-speeds-simplifies-all-your- >> scanning-needs#/ >> >> Carl Claunch pointed me at this, he has one and I am sure he can >> comment >> further. I have ordered one. > >You can actually get them off of Amazon and they run specials on them quite >often. However, I have spoken to a few guys who own one and they are less >than impressed > >-Ali Do you have links to anything they wrote about that? If not can you ask them to email me? I'd be very interested to hear their comments. I have a strong interest in the progress of scanning tech. I too have a considerable library of stuff that should be scanned. I do a few small ones now and then, but mainly as experiments in refining technique, and making myself think about data structure of the output. I don't consider (my) current scanning capabilities good enough to be worth dedicating the time required to scan large or critical works. Overall, the 'whole page at a time via a camera shot' technique has (so far) too many issues to be acceptable for my purposes. Image non-linearity due to paper curve and wrinkles, illumination variations, and px/inch resolution limitations plus that the effective px/inch varies after software correction of page arching. Also all of the above mean you can't stitch partial images of larger sheets, which you can with flatbed scanner images due to the precise pixel grid. Since lots of tech docs have huge foldouts... The underlying motivation with the photo method is 'speed in use'. But I have found that achieving visual consistency with the original publisher's creative intent, requires careful, slow proof examination and touchup of every single page. There are just so many variables, and I've yet to see any automated process that doesn't screw up in some circumstances. Maybe it's possible, I just have doubts, given that even the human eye can have difficulties sometimes. An important point, is that there are two very different objectives/viewpoints with scanning: One is the 'information user' viewpoint. Someone who just needs the content of a manual while fixing some piece of old tech gear. A visually accurate and clean copy, good photo capture etc, is nice, but not essential. I'm sympathetic to this case, since I use scanned manuals like this a lot too. A fairly crappy copy is still usable. The other viewpoint is the archivist/historian/cultural preservator. In this case much more that mere readability is important. The basic aim is to preserve the creative quality and spirit of the work, as well as its data content. Ideally the capture technology and file format should be capable of supporting reprinting (given ideal print technology) physical copies indistinguishable from the original (to the human eye and touch.) Think about it from the viewpoint of someone 500 or a 1000 years in the future. Do you want those descendents to think all the manuals from the 1900-2000s were crappy looking fax mode B&W jaggy garbage? That there were no such things as the visually beautiful service manuals, that people put so much effort into producing? Have you ever held a fat HP/Tektronix/Sony service manual in your hands, and marvelled at the beautiful high-resolution massive foldouts? Don't you want anyone to have that experience in the far future? I take the second position. I think almost all of the current scanning efforts, even massive ones like bitsavers (and the PDF format) are seriously inadequate in a technical sense. With people putting in that effort, that's fine. It does produce 'usable' copies online, and that's good. Especially if the process is non-destructive. It can just be done again later when better tech is available. When the scanning process involves destruction of the original work... if a common document, ho hum. But if it's a rare document, or even maybe so rare that it's the last one, then destroying it now just to produce a digital copy inadequate to the aims of cultural preservation - that's a crime. One right up there with genocide, contamination of entire countries with DU munitions, destruction of libraries and museums, ecological mass destruction, etc. I'm totally in favor of people scanning whatever they have. Only please, start with the common works, for practice. If you have rare documents, only experiment on them with non-destructive methods. Be patient. If you are having physical storage space problems, give the precious old documents to someone who can continue to preserve them. Scanning technology continues to improve. Unless a document is falling apart due to age, acid paper etc, it can wait. Relevant: http://everist.org/NobLog/20190223_full_spectrum.htm#golden Guy
Re: Scanning question
At 08:51 PM 18/07/2019 -0600, you wrote: >On 7/18/19 3:50 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> So, I have a bunch of old DEC Rainbow docs that aren't online. I also >> have a snapscan scanner that I use for bills and such. >> >> There's four kinds of docs, and I'm looking for advice: > >I always wanted to apply (fiber) optics to this. I wanted something >that was akin to a (glass) block that I could set on the bed of a >scanner that would be tall enough that I could open books 90â110° with >the to be scanned side sitting on top of the raised / extended scanner >bed with the book pages laying off to one side. Much like you would see >if someone was reading the book while laying on their back. > >I don't know if anything like this exists or is even possible. Same thing, much simpler. Called an Edge Scanner. (google) It's just a normal travelling sensor scanner, but without all the wasted space along one side. They usually can scan to within a small few mm of the edge of the glass plate, and there's no side structure beyond the glass plate edge. You just raise the scanner up on blocks to give sufficient vertical clearance at the side for your book width. There's still the issue of compressing the book to ensure the pages lay properly flat on the glass. For this 'small edge' you pay a lot extra, even though many existing scanners can be hacked to be edge scanners just by cutting away excess garbage at one side. The usual corporate calculated feature-limitation bullsh*t. I have a few related UNFINISHED articles online: http://everist.org/temp/edge/20150214_hacking_edge.htm http://everist.org/temp/On_scanning.htm http://everist.org/temp/20140812_disconnecting_the_dots.htm And threads like this make me hate myself for not having finished those. Too busy, and they are all halted by dependencies on _other_ unfinished/ unsolved problems. I have a lot more to say about the wisdom of destroying original publications to scan them, especially when you are not already an expert at scanning and the many tradeoffs. But have to go afk just now. Guy
Re: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA)
My net service dropped out yesterday, hence delayed reply. I did NOT expect that thread to take off. At 10:14 PM 16/07/2019 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >> Exploring a MASSIVE Retro Computer Warehouse! > >old news, dredged up again because of a youtube jackass Ah yes, now I see there was exactly one previous mention a month ago on 2019-06-12 https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=156035869326953&w=2 or http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048024.html Were there other discussions perhaps, that didn't mention the shop name? Anyway maybe some may like to see the jackass's video of the huge collection, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvM82T3C2Ik or perhaps go buy stuff to help out the invalid owners? Btw Al did you have any sources for this? >And YOU didn't live through Crisis Computer's downsizing seeing literally a >large >warehouse of HP hardware getting scrapped. >The fact that anyone 15+ years after that happened is still in business is a >wonder in itself. So that was 15 years ago? Are there any photos online? Just curious. Btw, I have at least three times seen large warehouses full of tech treasure destroyed. It's the standard routine in Australia. Literally. Because for a long time the government charged import duty on everything brought into the country. And there was a regulation that in many cases that duty could be recovered by the importer, if they had the equipment landfilled in the presence of a tax inspector. Ha ha, I spent one Christmas eve stripping the laser optics and electronics out of about 20 laser disk players, that a video arcade company I did contract software for, had imported. Then they discovered the players were unsuitable. So, to the tip with them, to be buried, to recover the tax. Except my employers were informal enough to think that was a waste, and ask me if I wanted to 'modify' the players first. I had one evening to do it. Fortunately also a stack of bricks, to make the units convincingly heavy after gutting them. That tax insanity is now gone. Leaving the depreciation, insurance and tradein insanities in operation. Depreciation: Company book keepers depreciate the value of capital investments, over the operating life of the equipment. They get a yearly tax break for this 'expense.' Once the equipment reaches end of depreciation period, theoretically it is worth zero. At that point the company will have it destroyed. Because to sell it would imply it still has value, and that would cast the bookkeeping proceedures (and the tax benefits) into doubt (according to the accountants.) And they don't want to just give it away, because there are safety and liability issues with that. Insurance: Typically when equipment is damaged and an insurance claim made, the equipment gets destroyed. Because the insurance companies are afraid they might get scammed. So they insist on proof of destruction. Tradein: Because Australia is a small tech-market and virtually everything is imported, companies like HP, Tektronix DEC, etc (their local distributors) hated to see their products get loose into the second hand market. So they offered very significant tradein deals on old stuff. Which they would then generally destroy. Unless their staff made off with it first. For a while I worked around the corner from the HP Sydney office. Dropped in and asked if they had any 2nd hand gear for sale. The engineer who spoke with me in the front office made a show of explaining that all tradeins were destroyed. He was making sure his superiors heard him toeing the company line. Later he offered me a few items via his car boot. All really old, valve stuff, though I did buy a couple. http://everist.org/NobLog/20140324_HP_relics.htm This is why Australia is a desert in regards second hand computing and test equipment. Guy
Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvM82T3C2Ik Exploring a MASSIVE Retro Computer Warehouse! via https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/lgr-retro-computer-warehouse/ To lessen risk of developing PTSD from watching that video, I'll mention that right at the end he explains there IS a process in place for getting access and buying stuff. Or free, if you are a museum. He gives the contact details. So it's not a case of "look at this Aladdin's Cave of retro treasures, and you're too late, now it's all bulldozed, ha ha." Which was what I thought it was going to be, through most of that video. Guy
Re: Mystery DEC backplane on eBay
At 07:30 PM 16/07/2019 -0400, you wrote: >For those who saw this item: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/183639487495 > >but didn't know what it went to (Web searches for "5409818" and "5009817" >didn't turn up anything useful for me), it turns out to be a "Configuration >2" backplane for a PDP-11/05-/10: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Backplane_versions > >with slots for one MM11-L memory unit, and 4 SPC slots. > > Noel > And what is this: ebay 273920073404 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Storage-Expansion-Boards-Backplanes-for-DEC-PDP-8-I-Rare-Vintage-Computer/273920073404 I see a lot of flip-chip modules with numbers the same as in my PDP 8/S. If it wasn't for the shipping costs for a big thing like that, I'd bid. Guy
Re: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040
At 12:38 AM 14/07/2019 -0400, Jesse Dougherty wrote: >Whats your deal dude? I'm not trolling anyone. I have hundreds of these >boards here.. I don't need 170 HP 1000 Series MUX cards. They just don't >sell that often for me to hold on to. What else do you want me to do >with them. Its crazy that you are insanely upset that I cross posted on >here. If you want working 12040, I have 87 more after those. We strip >down system, build custom 1k boxes, sell parts, and buy parts.. kind of >what we do. OK, I'll explain without so much sarcasm, what you've done and why it's offensive. This is a forum for people who appreciate and like restoring and preserving classic computers. Almost by definition, classic computers (eg HP 1000) and their parts are rare to find in good/working condition. Also they don't have any commercial use, so prices are totally set by 'collectibles' market factors. And often are simply passed among like-minded people, for free. Most of us old guys have spent a lifetime trying and often failing, to save splendid old gear from destruction by bean-counter mentality types. Who think gear should either be in use making money, or destroyed as soon as possible to clear the way for other money-making systems. Now here you are, stripping boards from systems, chucking the boards in a deep pile in a box (likely breaking small parts off most of them), putting the box on ebay for 'gold scrap' but at a flat non-negotiable price that is surely way above the actual worth of the gold. Then acting like you're doing us a favor by letting us know of your offering. Also you have just confirmed that you don't want them and basically want to get rid of them. But you STILL haven't said anything about the $600 being flexible. >From your wording in both posts, it's obvious there'd be no chance of you taking any care to ship the boards in a way to avoid further damage if someone did buy them from you. By your actions so far, and manner, it's clear you regard them as absolute junk, fit only to be destroyed for gold recovery. To us, it's _painful_ to see all those boards being treated so. Summary: * We see them as likely already broken. Deliberately broken. Vandalized. By you. * And if by a miracle some are not already broken, they're very likely to be broken after you handle them some more and ship them. * In this context, your asking price is an insult. * It's probably even an insult to gold scrappers. * Which suggestes that you're a bit irrational. This isn't going to raise interest. No one has snapped up your generous ebay offer. Not even the gold recovery guys. I have a HP1000 system, and I'm in Australia, where such hardware is incredibly rare unobtainium. My system was rescued from a contract scrappers where it was about to be smashed and landfilled, minus probably the aluminum in the old HP racks. You're behaving in much the same way. I do know the guys running that place felt sad about destroying cool old things. Do you? Guy
Re: 5 1/4 diskettes available
At 06:43 PM 13/07/2019 -0700, you wrote: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes >Without the exact zipcodes and weight, can't get exact postage. >However, it is likely to be "zone 6", for which parcel post for 1 pound is >$7.62. There are ways of getting some discounts, such as online ordering >of postage, instead of the counter at the post office. >A Priority Mail small flat rate box would be $7.50 >A Priority Mail flat rate envelope is $6.95, but rather tight. > >So, the postage might be a LITTLE low, but not by much. Oh good, so it wasn't a loss for them. Thanks. Btw I emailed them and also asked what kind of quantity of those floppies they have, and would they do bulk deals at the original price. 'For a friend'. Still doing my best to keep driving the price up. :) >Plato defined "MAN" as "featherless biped". >So, Diogenes handed him a plucked chicken. >Plato refined his definition to include broad toenails. > >Plato said that Diogenes was "A Socrates gone mad". Plato was a humorless twat. Diogenes sounds like a really cool dude. Today he would have been a hero-level philosophical Troll. Perhaps a great leader for Gen-Z. Certainly Twitter and Facebook would have banned him, and Amazon would be working on hunter-killer drones just for Diogenes. >Nothing that Diogenes wrote has survived, so we rely on third party >accounts, mostly by those who were adherents of others. > >Alexander The Great asked Diogenes what he could do for him. >"Move over; you're blocking my sun." One of my favorites. I'd like to get a print of that Waterhouse painting, Diogenes, the pot, and lamp. Guy
Re: Margaret Hamilton Guardian interview.
At 01:48 PM 13/07/2019 -0700, you wrote: >Another of the un-acknowledged people in the upcoming July 29 >'celebrations'. > >https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/13/margaret-hamilton-computer-scientist-interview-software-apollo-missions-1969-moon-landing-nasa-women > >--lyndon Highly related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhVKYDVZxWQ Apollo AGC Part 19: Restoration complete! Published on Jul 12, 2019 IWe finally are able to make the original erasable core memory work, under the watchful eye of guests more famous than us. This completes the restoration of the AGC. In the process we dump the historical content that was still present in the memory module and find all kinds of interesting things. Also, at 17:26 is that a HP 2116A in the background? Tall gray rackmount unit. First minicomputer HP made. Guy
Re: 5 1/4 diskettes available
>They confirmed my order. Fingers crossed they actually ship them, and it >doesn't >turn into an argument about honoring transactions. Though probably, a higher >postage >cost would be fair. 88 floppies and covers will weigh a bit. (Should have >bought 100.) >4 Pack of 5.25" Floppy Diskettes with Sleeves >COM1147 22 $0.89$19.58 >Subtotal: $19.58 >Shipping & Handling: $6.95 >Tax: $0.00 >Order Total:$26.53 They DID ship them. Just received notice of shipment. You know, the postage from Garland, Texas to LA, CA for a box of 88 floppies would have been more than $6.95. How much more, I don't know. Could they have made a loss on that transaction, hence the price bump? > That's not the same BG Micro we bought stuff from in the > early 80's, is it? > bill >The one with the yellow photocopied catalog? That's the same one. >The owner/founder passed away a year or two ago and I believe his daughter is >running it now. >Will Can anyone estimate the likely US postage for that package? Please let me know. If BG Micro are badly out on that transaction, I'll contact them and make it up to them. Would not if it was some big corp, but BG Micro are clearly honest. Such a rarity. Funny, I was thinking of Diogenes and his lantern just the other day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes Guy
Re: 5 1/4 diskettes available
At 03:47 PM 11/07/2019 -0500, you wrote: >> On 7/10/19 11:32 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >> >> > https://www.bgmicro.com/4-pack-of-5-25-floppy-diskettes-with-sleeves.aspx >> >> They have hub rings, so they are probably 360K > >Weren't these 89 cents when this was first posted? Well they're $1.89 now. >You're altering the market! So they are! Oops. Sorry! Maybe they had a rush of orders, and it's not entirely my fault? Or maybe the 89c price was a typo, and my order alerted them? They confirmed my order. Fingers crossed they actually ship them, and it doesn't turn into an argument about honoring transactions. Though probably, a higher postage cost would be fair. 88 floppies and covers will weigh a bit. (Should have bought 100.) 4 Pack of 5.25" Floppy Diskettes with Sleeves COM1147 22 $0.89$19.58 Subtotal: $19.58 Shipping & Handling: $6.95 Tax: $0.00 Order Total:$26.53 That's an easily altered market. I am a lovely butterfly, fear my flapping wings! Guy
Re: 5 1/4 diskettes available
At 08:27 PM 10/07/2019 -0700, Grumpy Ol' Fred wrote: >The 5.25" diskette or "Mini-diskette" is bar napkin size, because Dr. Wang >said that 8" diskettes were too big. I have not been able to track down >WHICH bar. Perhaps the same bar where someone bet L Ron Hubbard that he couldn't create a religion?
Re: 5 1/4 diskettes available
At 07:14 PM 10/07/2019 -0700, you wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote:
>> And the index hole.
>
>What about it?
Because it's so long since I used any 360K floppies, that I could not
recall if some didn't have any hole. (But I did remember about the soft/hard
sectoring; 1 vs n holes.)
The 82901 specs I have don't mention if it's soft or hard sectored, but a few
diskettes I received with the drive (which are definitely for it) are single
hole.
>There were some machines that didn't use the index (such as Apple and
>Commodore), but they didn't care if there was one.
Yes, I knew about Apple disks.
http://everist.org/NobLog/20190106_hacked_appleII.htm
>There were some that used 10 or 16 index holes ("hard sectored"). In
>the unlikely event if these happen to be hard sectored, then others will
>gladly take them off your hands..
:) Except I'm in Australia, so they could probably find them cheaper at home.
bgmicro sold at a very reasonable price. For me, most of the cost will be
postage.
I send everything via shipito.com in CA (a reshipper) for consistency,
tracking, and
significantly lower international rates due to their bulk deals with carriers.
Btw, I didn't deplete bgmicro's stock. They seem to mention on some items when
they
have limited stock, and they don't on the floppies. So likely have a LOT of
them.
[snip]
>"360K" - 300 Oersted. vs 1.2M 600 Oersted.
Can you believe that is the first time I have ever heard the actual figures for
the coatings?
I knew the 1.2M type had a higher coercivity, thus the incompatibility. Ditto
with 3.5" 720K
vs 1.44M.
Thanks for the detailed review, and thanks to the others adding more. Saved.
Guy
Re: 5 1/4 diskettes available
At 12:25 PM 10/07/2019 -0700, you wrote: > > >On 7/10/19 11:32 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > >> https://www.bgmicro.com/4-pack-of-5-25-floppy-diskettes-with-sleeves.aspx > >They have hub rings, so they are probably 360K And the index hole. Thanks Will, this is quite fortuitous. I've just restored a HP 82901 dual 5.25" drive, which now runs, responds on the HP-IB bus, but I don't yet have facility to test R/W files. Next is to find some floppies to suit. I can't find any mention of what floppy type it uses, but the model specs are: Double sided, 35 tracks/side, 16 sectors, 256 byte sectors, MFM, optical index hole sensor. Total capacity: Listed as 270KB, but above gives 286,720 bytes. (280KB) So probably 360K disks would work? I'll have a few boxes of old 360K somewhere, and digging them out was on my list for today. So, nice timing. Ordered about 80. No hurry, since I still don't have a suitable HP-IB card. Looking for a couple of cards that are PCI and listed in http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdir/ Pic of the drive here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/what-did-you-buy-today-post-your-latest-purchase!/msg2537844/#msg2537844 I also have a HP 9121 (working with my HP 1630G) and 9123 (both 3.5"), looking for a HP 9895A (8") The origin of this project is that I have 3.5" disks with ALL the disassembler utils for the HP 1630 logic analyzer, and want to archive them to PC (and put online, with other people waiting for this.) Guy
Re: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040
At 12:18 PM 8/07/2019 +, jesse cypress-tech.com wrote: >If anyone wants 87 HP 1000 series mux cards for gold or to play around >with, I'm starting to clean house. The ebay link is below. > >https://www.ebay.com/itm/383039137321 Wow. Way to make everyone interested in restoring HP 1000 systems (me included) hate you. All those boards, dumped loose in one deep box, so most of them are guaranteed to have small parts broken, and everything scratched up. Are they all 'known dead' or something? Then wanting $600 as 'scrap gold recovery' value? Idk, is that appealing for gold scrappers? But it's like a red flag to a bull, for people potentially interested in seeing if any of the boards could be got working. "I'm going to destroy all these boards, and if you want to save them it's going to really cost you. Also, I promise to NOT pack them carefully for shipping, if you did pay the ransom." It's like you deliberately spoofed common attitudes to classic computer hardware, that are why so much of it is so rare by now. Or you're trolling the readers of this group. Oh and let me guess. You had crates full of documentation for these boards, but you already binned it all, right? Also mating cables for the boards, sold for 'low content copper scrap.' Hmm: http://www.cypress-tech.com/hp-1000-series.html 'Clean house'? Please tell us you are not stripping down intact systems into recycling bins? < Heartfelt Australian terms of endearment >, Guy
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
At 08:21 PM 5/07/2019 -0400, you wrote: >You could be sitting on $400K-$1,000,000. That's the current range of >decent-condition Apple 1 boards. I just _love_ being reminded of the circumstances of my NOT buying an Apple I, and what that mistake cost me. http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm Guy
Re: One of the deeper dives into RISC vs CISC I've seen
At 12:56 PM 25/06/2019 +0200, Liam Proven wrote: >On Mon, 24 Jun 2019 at 12:31, Tony Aiuto via cctalk > wrote: >> >> On a related note, a fun talk about ARM >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2045&v=_6sh097Dk5k > >Remarkable. Thanks for the link. Astounding. Very thought-provoking. Yes, it is. Fascinating! And right now jdownloader is fetching me a local copy, as opposed to previously not working with that one video for some inexplicable reason. So thanks for reminding me to try again. Guy
Re: irish cctech subscribers
Hi Ronan, I know you meant 'in Ireland.' But I can't resist: I'm of Irish ancestry, though born and residing in Sydney Australia. Also "My particular interest is in DEC pdp-8 and pdp11 machines." Never thought I'd actually have any, until unexpected events of 2018 and ongoing. Now so far I have two PDP-8/S to restore ( http://everist.org/NobLog/20181104_PDP-8S.htm ) and two PDP-11: Rack 1: PDP 11/44 and one RLO2 diskpack drive. Rack 2: PDP 11/34, two RLO2 diskpack drives, and one RK05 disk pack drive. Seems to be a complete, intact system. I have the side panels, various blanking panels, and assorted documentation. Still making arrangements for a long-term space to set them up and work on them. Regards, Guy Dunphy At 03:30 PM 17/06/2019 +0100, you wrote: >Dear All, > >I am particularly interested to make contact with Ireland-based >classic computer collectors or users. >My particular interest is in DEC pdp-8 and pdp11 machines. > > >Best Wishes, > Dr. Ronan Scaife === ronan.sca...@dcu.ie == >School of Elec Eng, Dublin City University, Dublin 9, IRELAND. >http://www.eeng.dcu.ie/~scaifer/ phone (office): +353-1-700-5434 >fax: +353-1-700-5508 >
Re: List search option?
At 08:59 AM 16/06/2019 +0100, you wrote: >There is a more complete archive here (with search facility): > >https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp > >Matt https://marc.info/ My God. A firehose of firehoses.
Re: List search option?
At 07:32 AM 12/06/2019 -0700, you wrote: > >> On Jun 12, 2019, at 7:13 AM, jesse cypress-tech.com via cctech >> wrote: >> >> Is there a list search option on the archives? As in if I wanted to find >> a relevant thread for part number ABC123 I could search that somewhere? > >A better question might be, is there a complete archive of the list anywhere? >A couple of us might come close, but I know I have holes in my copy. > >Zane Yes, there is. It's mentioned in the email header of every posting. List-Archive: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ But there's no mention of a search facility. It would be useful. This kind of google search seems to work: url:classiccmp.org "Zane Healy" But whether it's ALL indexed; don't know. Guy
RE: Things to do in Australia & New Zealand?
>Subject: Things to do in Australia & New Zealand? >From: Patrick Finnegan >I'm going to be in Australia and then New Zealand for most of June, and was >wondering if there was anything interesting classic computer wise to visit? >I'm planning on being in Sydney for the Australia half of the trip, and >haven't made many plans for New Zealand yet besides flying in/out of >Auckland. >Pat At 10:38 PM 20/05/2019 +0100, Rob wrote: >Lookup Max Burnet in Sydney, well worth a visit. Sadly, Max is very frail these days and now lives in a nursing home. He's overseeing the distribution of the contents of his personal museum to other custodians, some in Oz, some in the US. I've only met him once, recently, during an ACMS working day. The state of classic computers perservation in Australia in general is pretty sad. Very little in the way of organised exhibition spaces. Mostly it's just motivated individuals, doing what they can with shoestrings and a spare room or two. There are some computer museum sites in Melbourne apparently, but none I'm aware of in Sydney. (Where I live.) Here even the Australian Computer Museum Society is reduced to stuffing things in shipping containers in fields on farms, and whatever cheap storage spaces they can find. For a list of known personal collections, you could contact Tennyson Delarosa me...@acms.org.au My own personal collection is barely worth a visit. And very 'stacked' in small spaces. The PowerHouse Museum in the city has a section on computer history, with some nice things. But that's a tiny proportion of their overall space. Very typically of Australia, the Powerhouse Museum recently almost had their site sold out from under them by the government, to developers. That seems to have been stopped. For now. There's the Kurrajong Radio Museum (a fair drive out to the NW) with lots of great old radio gear but not much in the computing line. The Telstra Museum in Bankstown (quite near where I live) has lots of fine early communications-related exhibits. But near zero computing. If anyone can think of other sites in Sydney, I'd be glad to hear of them too. Otoh if you're interested in sightseeing, I can make you a list. Around the city and out in the countryside. Do you enjoy outdoors and walking? I can take you on a very nice day walk (or a few) near the city. Or further out. Also if you are adventurous I can organise some unconventional urbex experiences. Guy
Re: Tape seals?
At 09:36 AM 18/05/2019 -0700, Chuck wrote: >There may be better solutions, but I haven't come up with one yet. It's >a bit funny; I can remember when the tape seal adoption was causing >dumpster-loads of hard plastic tape cases to be scrapped. The cases >that remain tend to be intact, even after 50 years. Just a thought - I buy small ziplock bags of various sizes in bulk from Aliexpress. Very cheap. I use them around the workshop, electronics, and for filing B5-sized documents in storage cubes. It seems likely there would be ziplock bags that fit tape reels. With a choice of light or heavy duty film thickness. Pros: * Keep dust, moisture and pests away from the tape. * Cheap and always available. * Takes up no significant extra space. * Allows inclusion of things like information sheets, keeping them associated with specific tapes. * Can put big labels on the bags. Cons: * Not as neat as ring seals. * Doesn't allow hanging. * Bags provide no support for the reel edges though, so you'd have to be careful with stacking. Guy
Re: Televideo 925 character rom dump
Thanks, I'll check that. At 07:48 AM 24/04/2019 -0500, wrco...@wrcooke.net wrote: > >> On April 24, 2019 at 7:39 AM Guy Dunphy via cctalk >> wrote: >> > >> I haven't dumped the chargen chip yet, because I don't know what it is, and >> suspect it's more complex than just a ROM. >> 24 pin character gen ROM/? at U10 is marked: >> >> VTi (logo) >> 350 RN 118 >> 2333-5006 >> 8000142 >> (c)TELEVIDEO 1983 >> KOREA-AE >> >> >> Guy > >Likely an MOS Tech 2333 ROM chip. >http://www.bitsavers.org/components/mosTechnology/_dataBooks/1982_MOS_Technology_Data_Catalog.pdf >See page 2-145 > >Will
Re: Televideo 925 character rom dump
At 08:14 AM 24/04/2019 -0700, you wrote: > > >On 4/24/19 5:39 AM, Guy Dunphy wrote: > >> The keyboard controller is an 8049. Firmware not readable. > >8049s aren't protected. they are 2k versions of the 8048 >and can be read as 8749s I did try reading it as an 8749. By 'not readable' I meant it read as all FF. Using a Topmax device programmer; a fairly good brand. Interestingly when I selected Intel 8749 it actually hung on reading. Repeatably. Never seen that happen before. Selecting NEC 8749, it read, but got all FFs. Considering there's something odd going on, I was quite relieved to verify the chip still works afterwards. I hadn't gone as far as getting out the databooks and checking whether 8049 should be readable. I thought they are, but the absense of '8049' type in the chip programmer seemed to suggest otherwise. Unless they were 'induced' to leave it out to hinder copying? Shall look into it further. Guy
Re: Televideo 925 character rom dump
At 04:34 PM 23/04/2019 -0700, you wrote: > > >On 4/23/19 3:35 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: [my Televideo 924] > >I have maint manuals for the 925. > >Some photos of the boards and dumps of the keyboard firmware and controller >would be nice to add to bitsavers, since I've not come across one. See pics and ROM images at http://everist.org/pics/televideo_924/ I haven't dumped the chargen chip yet, because I don't know what it is, and suspect it's more complex than just a ROM. 24 pin character gen ROM/? at U10 is marked: VTi (logo) 350 RN 118 2333-5006 8000142 (c)TELEVIDEO 1983 KOREA-AE See http://everist.org/pics/televideo_924/20190424_3338_chargen.jpg The keyboard controller is an 8049. Firmware not readable. Guy
Re: Televideo 925 character rom dump
When I saw this thread I thought 'Oh, I have a 925!' Which was working last time (years ago.) But wouldn't you know. When I checked, it's a Televideo 924. Off by one. But perhaps the character ROM content is the same? Anyway I will see if it still works, and secure all the ROM images. Today. I have the user manuals, but does anyone have schematics for the 925 & 924? Guy At 09:38 AM 23/04/2019 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:25 AM Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 11:02 AM Jon Elson via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Is the ROM totally bad, or just losing a few bits here and >>> there? If the latter, you could probably read it out, figure >>> out how the rows, columns and characters are mapped, and fix it. >>> >> >> Considering that 925s are really common, and a replacement EPROM should be >> easy to source and program, this sounds like an overly difficult approach >> that will yield something different than what he wants. >> > >The thought had crossed my mind, but only as a last resort. I'm not >entirely sure what the internal fault is, but the end result is two rows of >every character have all bits stuck "on." I've verified that the ROM >addressing is correct and that there's nothing on the output side causing >this behavior. Patrick, thanks very much for offering to read the ROM! > >- Josh > > > >> Pat >> >
Re: PDP-8: count number of set bits in a word
At 08:49 PM 5/04/2019 +, you wrote: >Hi Kyle, > >hat's a really interesting problem, and the government (NSA) wanted this badly >and done FAST. > >they asked Seymour Cray to create a specific instruction for this and they >called it 'population count' > >Anybody know the why and how it is useful? > >I am deep in matrix math books and 'classification algorithms' in statistics >math, looking into electronics reliability WCCA, so this is an interesting >topic. > >Randy If we're considering hardware solutions, then the best way is to build a simple I/O device, with a writeable latch for the data word, fed as address into some nonvolatile memory like a big EPROM or flash, the output of which can be read via a port. Fill the NV memory with the required lookup table (derived by some code written in anything. BASIC for lols.) So the required code is just one write and one read. See the size chart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPROM The biggest EPROM made was ST M27C322, 32 Mbit, 2Mx16. 21 Address bits, 16 data bits, 80nS access time. http://pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheet/stmicroelectronics/6184.pdf Wasteful though, since the result only needs 5 bits. For an 8 bit result, 27C4001, 512K x 8 bit, 19 Address bits. http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs150/fa02/docs/M27C4001.pdf If the argument is only a 16bit word, then use a 27512. 64K x 8 bit Guy
Re: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay
At 10:17 PM 4/04/2019 -0500, you wrote: >These are very different. That older one was really just a case - it >had no lights, perhaps no actual switches (I am guessing not), and >certainly no circuit boards. This one has that stuff (and I see that >the price has gotten to an amount I once bid on a CDC-160 [and lost.] Whoever bidder x***n is, someone should explain to them about snipe bidding services. What I want to know is, how do front panels of historic computers so often get separated from the rest of the computer? Do people just rip them off as souvenirs and scrap the rest of the machine? It's very hard to understand. I found several orphan PDP front panels at the ACMS warehouse diaspora last year. And rescued all that I found. But it's so sad. Guy
RE: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer
Or the drum isn't getting charged in the first place, before light exposure then toner dusting. A way to check this: while the machine is in mid-copy, cut the power then open it up and look at the drum. Is there a toner image adhered to the drum section between where the surface is image-exposed then dusted, and where it rolls against the paper? Btw, if the fuser roller isn't heated enough, the symptom is that the paper comes out with a normal image, except the toner wipes off with finger swipe. Since it's just sitting on the paper not stuck to it. Old toner cartridges should be given a strong end-to-end shaking before being put into use. Toner can settle in lumps and block the path to the duster. While you have the machine apart, always clean all the optical path lens surfaces. Dust greatly reduces the print contrast. And because most machines use fan-blown air, dust gets everywhere that isn't absolutely airtight sealed. One other tip that might be useful. Very commonly with old photocopiers and laser printers the rubber pick-up and paper feed rollers lose their 'tack' and slip on the paper. I found that briefly soaking them in teatree oil restores the 'tack' quite well. It soaks in and seems to have the right spread of rubber-soluble oils to keep the surface a little tacky. Anyone else found other solvent/oils with similar effect? Guy At 01:47 PM 2/04/2019 -0700, you wrote: >>If I'm not mistaken, high voltage capacitors on power supply. The corona wire >>isn't >charging the paper, so the image doesn't get transferred from the >>cylinder to the paper to >be pressed/fused in the fusor. > > >Alexander, > >Thanks for the reply. Grant also suggested the same thing. I am turning the >printer upside down as I write this to pull out the HV and see if anything >looks bad from the get go. Thanks! > >-Ali > > > >
Re: Pioneers of computing
At 06:59 PM 10/03/2019 -0400, you wrote: > >> On March 10, 2019 at 6:10 PM ben via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 3/10/2019 3:18 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> > Back in 1965 Jack Kilby, Jerry Merryman and James Van Tassel at texas >> > Instruments created an integrated circuit designed to replace the >> > calulator. Historians, though not all, credit this development as the >> > beginning of the electronic-computing revolution that was truly underway by >> > the mid-70s. Vintage/classic computing our hobby goes back that far as us >> > baby-boomers can attest to. >> > >> > Happy computing all! >> So do have more information on said device? >> I am using a 2901 bit slice and that came out in 1975. :) >> Ben. > >Here is a little bit of info on it: >http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/ti_cal-tech1.html That's fascinating, thanks. I'd never heard of it. The Intel 4004 came out in 1971. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_4004 I'd understood that was the first chip that could be considered a 'processor' (though it required some support chips to do anything.) The TI Cal-Tech design was begun in 1965 and they had a working calculator in 1967. I wonder if the chips in that had any kind of code programmability? Guy
Re: OT: Phone museum seeks new owner
At 01:11 PM 19/02/2019 -0800, you wrote: >>> Old tech, but not computers: >>> https://madison.com/business/galesville-antique-phone-dealers-looking-to-offload-vast-collection/article_b1845009-c861-50ff-82c8-60a15866fc6d.html > >On Tue, 19 Feb 2019, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> 451: Unavailable due to legal reasons >> We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country > >We must prevent advanced rotary dial technology from falling into the >wrong hands! Amusing, but that isn't anything close to what it's about. >451: Unavailable due to legal reasons >We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging >to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General >Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at >this time. For any issues, contact hostmas...@madison.com or call 800-362-8333. The EU's GDPR is supposed to be about 'protecting personal data privacy', but seems more like another Globalist attempt to cripple the Internet by imposing unreasonable and near-impossible to comply with regulations. Guy
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
Oops, this was meant to go to the list _and_ William. Sorry for duplicate Will. At 09:10 AM 18/02/2019 -0500, Will wrote: >> I see 4 Boxes of punch cards. All blank? >> >> https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipN-btB2yizsHBmabHb7xtHr_zUWZlS6QENHMHbb-beU6Jf4oNqEABuPoVWamYFUtg/photo/AF1QipP1COpYtcSYKVmiBAZskOJL5yujK8d2561Fepk?key=MmhXdXRtVkhoZkNGODBleGFNeGYza2xvV1BkbjV3 >> >> Too bad he wants $25 a box. > >25 dollars for a full box of blank cards is actually a really good >price - but those cards are probably too far gone. Jam city. Maybe, maybe not. And there they are, as opposed to being mythical, somewhere else. Anyway, if someone was to go to Kemners and offer $10 a box for all 4, arguing that "they are pretty far gone, jam city, dusty, in a mess, maybe some blocks are OK, etc." Then I'd pay for them and pack & postage to my US reshipper in CA. At this address: Guy Dunphy 3503 Jack Northrop Ave Ste J8637 Hawthorne, CA 90250 USA And then be facing the postage to Australia too. Hence my low offer. Reason: As part of the Australian Computer Museum Society equipment dispersal, I have an IBM 028 and three IBM 026 card punches to restore. Eventually. Plus that Documation TM200 card reader. Which I'm still seeking a manual for btw. Guy
Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough
At 01:51 PM 16/02/2019 -0500, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > >I heard Kemners Surplus in Pottstown, PA was going away so I decided to pay >them a visit. I'm taking pictures of as much vintage computing gear as I >can as we speak. I'll be here until they close today at 5pm EST, so if you >see something you like feel free to give them a call and I'll help them >navigate. > >Photos updated as I walk through, here: > >https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Q8Jx7n36fmVczLN8 That's a lot of visual fun, thanks for the photos. There is NO SUCH THING in Australia. There were still a small number when I was a child (1960-70s), all long gone now. >If you see something you like it'd be great if you could check if I'm >interested first until I'm finished today. ;] > >Hope this helps someone, they shut down soon! I see 4 Boxes of punch cards. All blank? https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipN-btB2yizsHBmabHb7xtHr_zUWZlS6QENHMHbb-beU6Jf4oNqEABuPoVWamYFUtg/photo/AF1QipP1COpYtcSYKVmiBAZskOJL5yujK8d2561Fepk?key=MmhXdXRtVkhoZkNGODBleGFNeGYza2xvV1BkbjV3 Too bad he wants $25 a box. And it's on the East coast, not West coast near my LA reshipper (to Australia.) And I'm near broke again, after this: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp-8594e-spectrum-analyzer-at-last-i-own-a-decent-spec-an/ http://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/hp-8594e-spectrum-analyzer-repair-%28i-hope%29/ Guy
Re: HP 1000 A class series boards
Hello Jesse, I have this: http://everist.org/NobLog/20131112_HP_1000_minicomputer_teardown.htm It's a stalled project, due to unfortunate circumstance. I was at the point of preparing to reassemble the machine (after cleaning) and start testing. Wanted to first test the power supply under dummy load, to check for bad caps etc. Could not find a schematic for this model of power supply online. Had contacted Jon Johnston, who ran the Australian HP Museum. He said he might have it, but was overseas (mountain climbing) at the time. He came back, but went off climbing again in the Himalayas before I contacted him again to remind him. That time, he died on the mountain. This was doubly sad for me, since of my two best friends, now both dead, one had died climbing in the Himalayas (David Hume, Mt Macalu 1996), and the other had nearly killed himself and me by severe negligence while we were doing a short 30m climb here in Australia. So my HP 1000 restoration became something of an avoidance issue. Since I joined cctalk and vintHP, I've been meaning to restart this project with assistance here. But too busy so far with other things. At the moment I'm not sure if my machine is an 'A-series' or not. How do I tell? It's a 2113E, apparently quite a late model. I've had it and related hardware (minus disk drives) since the early 2000's. It was a junkyard find. All in perfect condition except one of the two tape drives has a little 'forklift damage' to the front. I rescued it all from being landfilled. Guy At 01:38 PM 27/01/2019 -0500, you wrote: >If anyone can use any of the 1000 A Series boards, I have the >following.. feel free to contract need anything. Sorry for the two >inventory postings, I spent all weekend inventorying these boards. > >02430-60009Â Â Â Voltage jumper board >12001-60003Â Â Â A400 CPU board >12004-60001Â Â Â Memory Controller >12005-60002Â Â Â Cable Assembly >12005-60010Â Â Â Serial Interface board >12005-60012Â Â Â Serial Interface board >12008-60001Â Â Â Prom Storage Module >12009-60001Â Â Â HP-IB Interface >12009-60010Â Â Â HP-IB Interface >12009-60020Â Â Â HP-IB Controller Card >12010-60003Â Â Â Bread Board Interface >12012-60001Â Â Â Jumper Board >12025-60001Â Â Â I/O Card >12038-60002Â Â Â Frontplane memory connector >12038-60005Â Â Â Frontplane Memory Connector >12040A/BÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 8- Channel MUX >12060-60002Â Â Â Analog Input card >12076-60001Â Â Â LAN Interface >12100-60001Â Â Â A400 CPU board >12101-60001Â Â Â A600 CPU board >12102-60002Â Â Â 512kb Memory Controller >12102-60007Â Â Â 512kb Memory Controller >12103-60003Â Â Â 512kb Memory >12103-60004Â Â Â 1MB Memory >12103-60016Â Â Â 512kn Memory >12105-60001Â Â Â A600 CPU board >12110-60002Â Â Â 1MB Memory >12150-60002Â Â Â Interface >12152-60001Â Â Â A700 Upper processor >12152-60002Â Â Â A700 Lower processor >12152-60003Â Â Â Memory Controller >12154-60005Â Â Â Battery Back-up >12156-60001Â Â Â Floating Point Processor >12156-60002Â Â Â 3-slot frontplane connector >12163-66001Â Â Â Interface >12202-60002Â Â Â DataPath >12202-60104Â Â Â DataPath >12202-69006Â Â Â DataPath >12203-60004Â Â Â Cache Controller >12203-60017Â Â Â Cache Controller >12203-69018Â Â Â Cache Controller >12204-60002Â Â Â Memory Controller >12204-60004Â Â Â Memory Controller >12204-60005Â Â Â Memory Controller >12220-60001Â Â Â 768kb Memory >1-60001Â Â Â Frontplane Memory Connector >1-60002Â Â Â Frontplane memory connector >1-60004Â Â Â Frontplane Memory Connector >12230-60001Â Â Â Frontplane Memory Connector >12230-60003Â Â Â Frontplane Memory Connector >12230-60004Â Â Â Frontplane Memory Connector >37203-60003Â Â Â Extender Card >5061-3434Â Â Â Direct connect I/O Board >5061-4938Â Â Â Direct connect I/O Board >5061-4939 Â Â Â Direct connect I/O Board >5061-4940Â Â Â Interface >5090-1631 â 5061-3417Â Â Â Interface >93691-60003Â Â Â Asynchronous Multiplexer >93699-60003Â Â Â Watchdog Timer > >
Re: Interest in a DiscFerret?
At 12:03 PM 10/01/2019 -0800, you wrote: >On Thu, 10 Jan 2019, Guy Dunphy wrote: >> All my Apple II disks are DOS 3.2. When 3.3 came out, it was a) too much >> trouble >> to convert everything up, and b) ... read that 'missing the wave' story. >> It gave me a sour feeling about 3.3. Totally my own fault, but still. > >If you get any of the existing commercial devices that can read Apple II >disks, . . . >MOST, if not all, of the ones available are 16 sector. Although the >hardware could handle 13 sector, you would need to modify the software. >Even the upper level (file system) portions of the code are likely to be >hard-coded for 16 SPT. That's a very good point, thanks. Hadn't occured to me, but of course the vast majority of Apple IIs ever sold used the 16 sector format. So that was the target market. Since almost all my A2 disks are DOS 3.2 13 sector, sounds like reading them with the A2 then transferring contents to PC via some link is the way to go. Hmm, I was given an Apple IIe about two decades ago, but never used it. Presumably my Apple DOS 3.2 driver card would work in that, and it could boot DOS 3.2 Possibly that's a fallback plan if I can't resolve the severely flakey operation of my early model, massively hacked Apple II. Assuming the IIe is less flakey. >For the MFM formats, avoid USB drives. They tend to be designed solely as >PC peripherals, and lack flexibility for even other sector sizes! >For FM and 128 bytes per sector (problematic for most PC FDC), check Dave >Dunfield's site for MFM imaging utility, and test programs for some FDC >capabilities. Not to worry about that, I have an attic full of old PC stuff including many old floppy drives of almost all kinds. I like external USB hard disk docks, but USB floppy drives - never had a need for them, never will. Guy
Re: Interest in a DiscFerret?
At 09:07 AM 10/01/2019 -0400, you wrote: >One problem you may encounter reading LIF format diskettes on a PC using >these tools is many LIF diskettes are formatted 256 bytes/sector and >there is lots of PC diskette controller out there that cannot deal with >that including all USB diskette drives I am aware of. I use a Panasonic >CF-45 laptop that has a built in diskette drive. HP's LIFUTIL can be >set up to use HPIB storage such as 9122s via a HPIB adapter card. > >Paul. Cool, another possible. Ironically I have a 9121 and a 9123, not a 9122. Now to work out whether the difference is significant. Hopefully not... And then, find a suitable HPIB card. I bet none of the ones I have are. Guy
Re: Interest in a DiscFerret?
At 09:43 AM 10/01/2019 +0100, you wrote: >On Thu, 10 Jan 2019, Guy Dunphy wrote: >> * Also I have some old HP equipment that uses HP-format floppies. LIF? >Now that is as easy as it can be. There's lif_utils from Tony Duell >(http://www.hpcc.org/datafile/hpil/lif_utils.html), or the HP LIF >Utilities (http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=56) for MS-DOS, of >even the LIF tools in HP-UX (e.g. lifls, lifcp). >But those 3½" HP floppies can be read on any standard PC with 3½" floppy >drive, they are in standard MFM format (with some special feature to mark >bad tracks, they put $FF in the sector headers and continue with the next >track). I've written a tool to read/write/format a diskette in 9122C >format to exchange data with our HP1000. > >Christian Thanks!
Re: Interest in a DiscFerret?
At 07:34 PM 9/01/2019 -0800, you wrote: >On Thu, 10 Jan 2019, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: >> ... >> What other all-formats floppy R/W and data recovery tools do people here >> know of? >> Comments of their functionality? > >A couple of questions to discuss. Believe it or not, they are not >rhetorical questions. > >1) Do you like to re-invent the wheel? I used to. These days with years growing short, I try to avoid such 'purely for fun' projects. 'Try', but often fail. Too easily sidetracked. But there are some things I want to do before I get too old, and they're not all going to be possible. Sidetracks just shorten the list. >You CAN make a better one, and have fun doing it. Sure, I agree. I think many existing things are crap, hence the tendency to want to improve them. But there's not enough time. Gundam Syndrome. For _this_ project, I just want to 1. Get my old Apple II fully working again. More to that than you'd expect: http://everist.org/NobLog/20190106_hacked_appleII.htm (only just started) Currently setting up a logic analyzer for this. Wish I'd had one back then! Now I have a choice among several. I sort of collect logic analyzers like some people collect scopes. I'll probably use my trusty OLD HP 1630G, just to give it some exercise. BTW, does anyone have any spare disassembly ROM packs for the Tek 1240? Seeking any! See: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/im-updating-a-wiki-site-for-the-tektronix-1240-1241-and-i-need-your-help/ I post as TerraHertz there. 2. Recover what files I can from all my old Apple II floppies. I want all of them to end up as files on a PC, with as little effort as possible. SOME of them I'll want to create new disks of, for use in one last Apple II project. Which is mostly just a demonstration of some things I did long ago. Not interested in simulators. The point is to demonstrate and take pics/videos of stuff running on that particular (highly modified) Apple II. And also to rebuild EPROMs for a few things. I do know a fair bit about the internals of Apple II disks (or rather, did) but now I don't much want to know. No way am I going to do manual file reconstructions from sector data. For this pile of floppies: http://everist.org/NobLog/pics/20181001/20181223_1961.jpg 3. Similar for the HP LIF disks. Recover the files to PC, create fresh disks exactly the same, post online any of the files (and/or disk images) that are not already. Pretty high chance most of them won't be. >2) Do you want to image the disks, for later recreation of a duplicate >disk? >OR >3) Do you want to extract FILES? (to be viewed/edited/used on PC) Apple II: Extract all files AND create duplicates of a few of the disks. All for my use. Unlikely to be much of interest to others. HP LIF:Extract all files (not many. I think no more than six 3.5" floppies.) Also create disk images for posting. So others have both the images and the files. >The majority of the flux-transition products were developed around #2. >I don't know which, if any, ever completed the software for #3. > >#2 and #3 are actually not mutually incompatible. >If you make images of the raw content of the disks, you could work from >those images, rather than from the physical format on the disks themselves >for extracting files. That is especially an issue for formats such as >Apple2, which can not be read by stock PC hardware. And, if you succeed >in creating a 140K file of the bytes on an Apple disk, then you do not >need to worry about whether it will survive any more read attempts. Sure, but for me this is only practical if tools exist to treat the image file as a virtual disk, to read the files. I _could_ write it (would take me months, or even years given how little time slices the project would get) but do not have time. More urgent things take priority. This is what I'm asking - does any such utility exist? Capture the image, and give access as files, allowing them all to be saved as files, one folder per original floppy. On a PC. Another path would be a software pair, some on the Apple II and some on the PC, with some channel between. RS232, or a dual port RAM, or whatever. This would actually be a lot simpler for me to write. I never did have a serial card for the Apple II back then, but that can't be hard to find. >For example, David Small's "Magic Sac" Macintosh emulator originally used >MFM images of Macintosh GCR disks. Not his first choice for a name for >it, but that was as close as Apple's lawyers would let him get. Later, he >created "Spectre GCR" to be able to read the Mac GCR disks. > >If you can image the Apple disks, so tha
Re: Interest in a DiscFerret?
At 03:39 PM 9/01/2019 -0500, you wrote: > >I had the bug to do something similar.. then I found SuperCard Pro. >It's closed hardware but the USB protocol is fully documented. Because >if that, it's almost a perfect commodity turn-key hardware bridge to raw >flux-level transitions - in or out. It's $100 and in-stock. One could >always build custom hardware, but you'd wind up with something very >similar in hardware and protocol design. What's your time worth? > >The heavy lift is always in software. There is an open-source Amiga >disk image utility package that has turned into something more >flux-level generic called Keirf Utilities. And the built-in software is >also descent. But since the USB protocol is documented, the hardware >capabilities can be extended by anyone. > >-Alan > > >On 2019-01-09 15:12, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/9/19 12:05 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: >>> Less finished (ok, unfinished) project >> >> Just what the world needs, more half-baked floppy reading hardware >> and no software, just like the stupid thing on hackaday. >> >> https://hackaday.com/2019/01/08/preserving-floppy-disks-via-logic-analyser/ >> >> Universal joy through the reinvention of the wheel (badly) Has anyone used a DiscFerret, to actually extract files from say, Apple II disks and HP LIF disks? The website- https://discferret.com/wiki/DiscFerret It seemms like the project is dead since 2013, was only ever for Linux, and never included software that understands various old floppy formats. Is that right? My neads (using DOS, WinXP or Win7) are: * At the moment I'm attempting to restore my old, heavily modified Apple II to working condition, and then archive all my old Apple II files on floppies to PC. Part of a project to document a bunch of projects I did in my 20s, 1970s t0 1980s. The intro article is here: http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm Another article is in progress, about the restoration and doco of all the mods I did on my Apple II. After it's working and old files extracted, then an article about my hacking Apple DOS 3.2 to get higher data density. The old thermal printer listings are faded to illegibility, so I'm really hoping the floppies are still readable. * Also I have some old HP equipment that uses HP-format floppies. LIF? They're not DOS compatible. A HP 1630G logic analyzer with 9121 GPIB dual floppy drive, and a HP 8 data generator. For both machines I have old floppies containing critical utilities (including a bunch of disassembly utilities for early processors) that I really want to back up on PC and put online. There's sentimental and historical interest with both, and practical need with the HP gear. But, I have little experience with data recovery from old floppies. Long ago I did have a PC ISA bus card for extracting bit transition images from floppies, but I can't find it. Just now starting to look for what's available. Hoping for something that just works, as I have way too many projects already. I do have boxes of old drives, 8" 5.25" and 3.5", most densities. What other all-formats floppy R/W and data recovery tools do people here know of? Comments of their functionality? Guy
Re: Anyone want an irman (Infrared to serial dongles)
At 11:05 PM 8/01/2019 +, you wrote: >While tidying up I've found a few Irman infrared to serial dongles > >https://web.archive.org/web/20060314052558/http://www.evation.com/irman/index.html > >they connect via a 9 pin serial plug and then convert any consumer >remote IR signals they receive into serial. > >No additional power required, good wide angle reception, open source >driver still available > >https://sourceforge.net/projects/libirman/ > >Could make an interesting project for anyone who wants to control >their VAX / S-100 / homebrew retro board with a serial port via a >remote :) > >The company making them went away about a decade ago, so I'm counting >that as in retro territory. > >I have four for the price of shipping if anyone is interested, based >in London/UK. > >(Around 2000 we had an office music system based around a DNARD/Shark >running mserv & irman where everyone had a random remote at their desk >and could use it to rate/skip/queue something they liked, and the >system generally trid to pick from music which most of the people >currently connected liked... ahh, fun days :) > >David I'll definitely take one. Or preferably two, if that doesn't clash with anyone else wanting one. I'll send my address via private email. Can you accept Paypal for the postage? Guy
Re: Bogus "account hacked" message
At 08:56 PM 8/01/2019 -0600, you wrote: >On 01/08/2019 04:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, 8 Jan 2019, allison via cctalk wrote: >>> SStandard lockout after three fails i 15 minutes.� >> >> Howzbout: >> a quarter second lockout after a fail; >> double that for each subsequent fail. >> Three tries to get it right will not be inconvenienced. >> But, by 32 tries, it's up to a biillion seconds. >> >Interesting observation I made a few years ago. I run a web >store, and was being inundated with ssh login attempts. >About 1000/day! I decided this was serious, they'd >eventually get lucky. >So, searching available software, I found denyhosts. It >checks the logs for login failures, and after a set >threshold, it puts the source IP into the hosts.deny list, >and your machine effectively disappears from that source >IP's view. I set the rules very strictly, so that after 3 >login failures over a 2 month span, that IP was blocked for >a year. Something very interesting happened. >The number of attempts did not diminish immediately, as the >botnets had a large number of compromised machines. But, >suddenly, two weeks to the EXACT HOUR when I set up >denyhosts, the attacks dropped from 1000/day to 3! Just >like flipping a switch! So, these hackers have a dark net >list somewhere where they trade IP addresses of machines >they would like to hack, and what they can figure out about >the security measures implemented on them. When they have >demonstrated by coordinated attempts that your lockout >horizon is over two weeks, they put out the word that your >site is not going to bear any fruit. > >I currently have 9000-some blocked IPs in hosts.deny, I >wonder how much that slows down my store. Ugh, the stuff we >are forced to go through. > >Jon I've been receiving the same 'hacked your account, sending this from your account, send bitcoins' scam emails for a while. They are NOT from 'my account' (what does that even mean?) although the sender email address is same as one or more of mine. But that is spoofable. I ignore them. I can see all the headers, which include lines like: X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3022 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3022 Since I'd rather die than use MS Outlook Express, or even install it an any system of mine, I know they lie (and for other reasons.) Recently one quoted 'my password' as evidence. It's a password I used on a porn site long ago, and that site changed hands and became a junk site sometime since. Maybe the new owners branched into extortion scams? I also at times receive a lot of scamming phone calls to my landline. Sometimes several a day. These have such a consistent format that I'm sure they must come from some group, even though they use different names. The phone rings, I pick up, there's a variable duration interval of silence, then a pooiip! popping sound (their system connecting this call to one of their operators, now that I answered), then a usually very Indian sounding voice (M or F) says something like "Hello, this is Microsoft security service" or "Hello this is product testing group." I never bother to go along with it to see what their intent is. Just hang up usually. We all know the government has total surveilance of all electronic communications. Don't argue, this is not a 'conspiracy theory'. I've even had dinner with a guy who was my interpreter wife's boss at the time, as head of the Sydney branch of Australia's national crime commission's intercepts division. Discussed the Echelon system (as it was named then) system with him, which he acknowledged existed. I asked so, what percentage of ALL communications (voice and digital) does the system capture and analyze for keywords? (Echelon used a 'dictionary' of keywords and phrases of interest, put together each week by the NATO powers, and shared among them all. Intercepts in each country are done on coms backbones, with each site existing as a diplomatic enclave, manned by intelligence staff who are acting on behalf of 'foreign allies' hence getting around local surveilance legal limitations. Any intelligence of interest is passed to local intelligence services as a diplomatic communication, so the local gov was not 'spying on their own citizens.' Ha ha ha. It sucks, but that is how it worked nearly 20 years ago. Certainly much worse now. I don't know what the equivalent system is called these days.) His answer: around 98%. Now here's the thing. Another interesting observation one could make: You'd think these kind of scamming emails and phone calls should be illegal, and easily prosecutable. You'd think it would require almost no effort at all from law enforcement and coms carriers, to identify the sources. Given that they have total transparency of the telecoms infrastructure. Not to mention that if Indian call centers are involved there would be international carrier contract
On Scanning
This may be a good place to mention a text I began writing some while ago: On Scanning. http://everist.org/temp/__On_scanning.htm Meant to be a 'how to' about scanning and post-processing techniques, written as I explored that myself. It's not finished because I was working on a solution to the 'screened images with overlaid sharp text' post-processing problem, when sidetracked. As often happens with me. Also that project diverged into the whole text encoding thing. Which I can't discuss, but I *can* discuss scanning issues. Anyway, any comments, corrections and suggestions for extra material are welcome. Oh, and those with an interest in Apple history may find this amusing: http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm Guy
Re: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please.
At 09:44 AM 31/12/2018 -0800, you wrote: > > >On 12/30/18 5:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> It might be helpful to state the policy (or choice, if any) explicitly so >> people know what to expect. >> > >I will return documents if requested. > >Originals may or may not be donated to CHM for archiving, depending on >if they are duplicative or are of duplicative scope. > >I do not archive any paper myself. > >Currently, I am being asked to reduce my backlog inside of Shustek >and am making some hard choices. Hopefully those hard choices don't involve dumpstering anything? Would they be less hard, if you mentioned here what your storage difficulties involve, and asked if anyone could help with that? Pretty sure you'd find willing helpers. Who love silverfish. Don't be like ManualsPlus: "Oh my gosh we have 300,000 manuals and one week before they have to go to the bin. Err, maybe we should ask for help now." Reading between your lines above, I gather that once you've scanned manuals, if CHM don't want them and the donor didn't ask for their return, they are disposed of? Respectfully, I suggest there are better alternatives. Such as offering them for sale or giveaway. And that you could probably find volunteers to provide all the required work and temporary storage. Btw, the Documation TM200 punch card reader manual I'm seeking and you may have, hasn't turned up at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/documation/ so presumably is still in your backlog. If you happen to see it, that's ONE hard choice I can definitely solve for you. Being on the other side of the globe means I unfortunately can't be much help with bulk material storage. Much as I'd like to. Guy
Re: Happy New Year!
At 06:48 AM 1/01/2019 +, you wrote: > >Happy New Year to all! >Ed# > >Sent from AOL Mobile Mail So, no new year's resolution about not typing extra spaces after words, Ed? Well maybe next year? Best wishes to all, and hopefully 2019 will bring everyone lots of interesting classic computers (that work!), and fewer 'interesting' political dramas. Guy
Re: KIP 2050 image scanner
At 03:10 AM 31/12/2018 -0600, you wrote: >I know of one outside of Chicago that is as is. I might be ab;e to move it >a state or two or help out with the arrangements. I know nothing about >it, but I can text or email 2 pics. > >Paul User manual: https://www.manualslib.com/download/647954/Kip-2050.html
Re: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please.
At 12:05 PM 29/12/2018 -0800, Al Kossow wrote: >On 12/29/18 12:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Stupid question, but doesn't IEEE CS already have these archived? > >of course they are > >we are speaking with paper obsessed siverfish lovers here though > Coming from you that's a worrying comment, unless you are joking. So Al, just curious, once bitsavers has scanned the manuals and stuff people send them, what happens to those paper originals? Does bit savers return them? Or make them available to others? Can people sending manuals to bitsavers get a guarantee (if they ask for it) the originals won't be destroyed? I'm asking while bearing in mind an instance of tech history loss in Australia a few decades ago, particularly tragic. An outfit called High Country Service Data, located in the Kosciuszko area, had a vast collection of service and user manuals, including a lot of early Oz-tech stuff like from BWD. Their business model was 'rented lending library.' You contacted them (phone or post) and if they had the manual you wanted they'd post it to you for a fee. You kept it a limited time, then posted back to them. Eventually scanners became available. HCSD thought their business would work better if they eliminated physical storage costs. They 'scanned' all the manuals (ultra crap resolution, B&W, stupid ignorant goofs, etc) then DESTROYED the originals. Because they didn't want to sell or give them away or even donate to the Australian national library, since that might create a competitor. This is not conjecture; the HCSD owner (who made those decisions) personally 'explained' that to me on the phone. The prime benefit of silverfish infested bulky piles of old paper, distributed widely among individuals who value history, is that no central entity can just suddenly decide to destroy them all, for whatever reason. Or 'mass edit' the digital files, like some corporations have been culling schematics from their archives of digitized old manuals. Having freely available digital copies is great. Kudos to bitsavers. But the paper originals have to be preserved in a distributed way too. For *many* reasons. I also have a question about a specific silverfish infested paper manual. On 22 Sep 2018 you wrote, Re: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader >I'm pretty sure I just saw a paper copy of the TM200 manual >which is different from the M200. I'll have to dig around to >try to find it again. I guess you never found it? I've asked you about it a couple of times since and you've ignored my queries. If you do find it, after you've scanned it I'd like to buy it if possible. I can't find any other copy and I do need it to get the machine's electronics going. Also I'm another paper obsessed siverfish lover. Aka PDF-hating cynic who thinks current digital document file formats and display utilities are still far too primative to be acceptable for convenient common use and as a reliable 'sole copy.' They are still a last resort. Guy PS naphthalene. Hmm, I'd better stock up before it's banned here too. https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/health-and-wellness/mothballs-warning-sounded-by-experts-20110206-1aif5.html
