[cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction)

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

You do realize that 'Pureblood' is a phrase most definitely associated with the 
Aryan Nations and other neo-Nazi, white supremacist hate groups? 

From: "Adrian Godwin via cctalk"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Cc: "Adrian Godwin"  
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2024 10:41:18 AM 
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Antonio's call for donations (was LCM auction) 

But do the recipients have to be free from all vaccines (would be hard to 
find an english person who hasn't had the polio or smallpox vaccines) or 
only one of the several covid vaccines ? 

On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 6:30 PM Alexander Schreiber via cctalk < 
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: 

> On Fri, Aug 30, 2024 at 08:08:04AM +0200, Johan Helsingius via cctalk 
> wrote: 
> > On 29/08/2024 23:28, Mychaela Falconia via cctalk wrote: 
> > > Specifically: I am potentially willing to donate my equipment and/or 
> > > my cash only to those who are Pureblood, meaning UNvaccinated. 
> > 
> > I assume you are aware that child mortality was 50% well into 
> > the 20th century, and was still 25% in 1950. It is now 4.3%. 
> > Guess what made the dramatic difference? Yes, vaccines... 
> 
> Now don't you derail someone's political rant and posturing with 
> actual facts ... 
> 
> SCNR, 
> Alex. 
> -- 
> "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and 
> looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison 
> 

[cctalk] Re: CP/M

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Not quite. 
CP/M is not a rename of PL/M. 
PL/M is a derivative of the programming language PL/I and was used in the 
development of CP/M - it is not an operating system. 
CP/M-86 was a later development of CP/M that was designed to run on 16-bit 
Intel processors. 
CP/M-68K was another branch of CP/M for use with Motorola 68K processors. 

From: "Murray McCullough via cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Cc: "Murray McCullough"  
Sent: Friday, May 3, 2024 4:46:54 PM 
Subject: [cctalk] CP/M 

I came across an article that said CP/M came out in April 1974. I remember 
using this OS in the microcomputer world in the late 70’s; early 80’s. It 
came from PL/M, (Programming Language for Microcomputers) later renamed 
CP/M(Control Program for Microcomputers). I’m not sure what its legacy is 
though as far as I can recall it was wrapped up in litigation for quite 
some time. It was used in the 8-bit world but not sure what it's role was 
in the early PC world! 

Happy computing, 

Murray 🙂 

[cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

I was lucky enough to have worked initially in Focal and FORTRAN at UW 
(Seattle) and moved on to PL/I, Pascal and APL at SFU (Burnaby, B.C.) while 
being exposed to Algol, BASIC, C, GPSS, Smalltalk, Simula, SNOBOL4, XPL and 
many other 'esoteric' languages. 
Of course, various Assemblers were in the 'mix' - 6800/6809, 8080, Z80, IBM 
360/370, IBM 1800, M68K... it's helped me adapt to whatever environment that I 
wound up working in. 

From: "Johan Helsingius via cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Cc: "Johan Helsingius"  
Sent: Thursday, May 2, 2024 8:03:38 AM 
Subject: [cctalk] Re: APL (Was: BASIC 

On 02/05/2024 01:51, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: 
> What would our world be like if the first home computers were to have had 
> APL, instead of BASIC? 

I don't know, but if you had asked "What would our world be like if the 
first home computers were to have had SmallTalk or even ALGOL instead of 
BASIC?" I would have said "much better". 

I started out with FORTRAN and 6800 assembler, but my first real 
programming job was in BASIC. I am fortunate in that they thought 
me Pascal in university, and I then got exposed to a bunch of other 
real high level languages - if I hadn't, and had continued with 
BASIC, I would probably have ended up as a pretty crap programmer. 

Julf 

[cctalk] Re: BASIC

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

APL is very much alive - it was invented in the '60s. 
Lisp is slightly older and it, as well, is still in active use - and it's older 
than FORTRAN, which was the inspiration for BASIC. 

From: "Sellam Abraham via cctalk"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Cc: "Sellam Abraham"  
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2024 4:37:46 PM 
Subject: [cctalk] Re: BASIC 

On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 4:36 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote: 

> To be sure, BASIC was hardly unique in terms of the 1960s interactive 
> programming languages. We had JOSS, PILOT, IITRAN and a host of others, 
> based on FORTRAN-ish syntax. not to forget APL, which was a thing apart. 
> 
> --Chuck 
> 

And where are all those other languages today? 

I rest my case. 

;) 

Sellam 

[cctalk] Re: DEC Processor Books

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

I had the same experience while working for a (very) small company called 
Northwest Digital Research. 
I was asked to point to a big HP plotter that was running one of our 
programs... and the photograph wound up in our product brochure. 
Of course, I had nothing to do with that program... 

From: "Mark Linimon via cctalk"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Cc: "Mark Linimon"  
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2024 5:43:13 PM 
Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC Processor Books 

> were just DEC employees that caught somebody's eye when they were 
> planning the shots. 

"Planning" may assume facts not in evidence :-) 

Some photographers wandered around my employer of the time, Recognition 
Equipment. (Like my Canadian girlfriend, you haven't heard of it.) 
I was near enough to a piece of machinery to be told "point to 
that console like you are doing something to it". So somewhere 
in some ancient Annual Report you can find a picture of a clean- 
shaven me. My 15 seconds of fame. 

Well maybe not all 15. 

So the "plan" was, we're on deadline, get some shots. 

mcl 

[cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

In high school I had signed up for an electronics class and then my family 
transferred to another city. 
In the high school that I then enrolled in, there was no electronics class so I 
was given the option of another class - I chose typing, which turned out to be 
a great choice. 
Since I had started the class mid-semester I wasn't required to pass any 
proficiency test, so it didn't matter how fast I was. 
At the same time, I learned to touch-type which was perfect when I became 
involved with computers, as all the other programmers were doing hunt-and-peck! 

From: "David Barto via cctalk"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Cc: skogkatt...@yahoo.com, "David Barto"  
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2023 9:15:48 AM 
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school 

> On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 5:15 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < 
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: 
> 
>> 
>> And, yes, even as a male I had typing in high school. 
>> 
> 
> I had typing as an elective class in 7th grade in 1984. It gave me the 
> ability to type in programs faster. 
> 
> Sellam 
> 
> C: i took typing as a senior in 1985. The lady was a former military officer, 
> in her 60s or later. Everyone was scared shirtless of her. 1 puerto rican 
> girl who sat up front could do 90wpm. Me, I sat in the back. I'm still a very 
> flawed typist. Iow I suck. 

I took typing as an elective in summer school before my senior year of high 
school, in preparation for typing papers at college. I failed the class because 
I would backspace and overtype the wrong character. 

In college I used UCSD Pascal on Terak’s. So I could backspace to my hearts 
content. 

Still not a very good typist, and at least now the backspace doesn’t screw up 
what I send out. 

(I took care to count the number of times I had to backspace while typing this 
message: 5) 

David 

[cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

The web-page explicitly says 'shipping available', which doesn't mean that 
shipping will be free, of course... 


From: "Mike Katz via cctalk"  
To: "ED SHARPE" , "General Discussion: On-Topic and 
Off-Topic Posts"  
Cc: "Mike Katz"  
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2023 10:38:20 AM 
Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC LINC Eight auction 

Where did you see them offering shipping? 

All I could see was a paragraph stating that anything not picked up at 
the designated time would be consider abandoned and charged to your 
credit card anyway. 

On 1/10/2023 11:36 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: 
> Absolutely gorgeous!Ed# 
> 
> Sent from the all new AOL app for Android 
> 
> On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 10:01 AM, steve shumaker via 
> cctalk wrote: Popped up in a search: A DEC LINC Eight 
> up for auction in Friedens, PA. 
> 
> https://hibid.com/lot/143159802/digital-equipment-corp-linc-eight-vintage 
> Currently has a single bid for $1.00 They are even offering shipping! 
> 
> 
> 
> Visually looks to be in excellent shape 
> 
> https://cdn.hibid.com/img.axd?id=7750162854&wid=&rwl=false&p=&ext=&w=0&h=0&t=&lp=&c=true&wt=false&sz=MAX&checksum=dXJczRVCwWW3aM2jOohA14P%2ful8pCw%2bs
>  
> 
> 
> Steve 
> 

Re: HP-UX on 9000/200 series

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Hi: 
According to this ( [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-UX | 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-UX ] ) only version 2.0 will run on MC68000 
systems - you need (at least) a MC68010 to run versions newer than that. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2021 11:58:20 AM 
Subject: HP-UX on 9000/200 series 

Hello, 

Does anyone have HP 9000/200 series running HP-UX instead of HP Basic ? 
The 5.1 image from hpmuseum.net can be booted only on 300 series with 68010. 

Best regards, 
Plamen 

Re: Early Programming Books

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Basically, pre-1960, there couldn't be a 'general book on programming', since 
every system was a unique environment - the only languages that could even be 
remotely considered to be common were ALGOL 60 and FORTRAN II... and they were 
'extended' by every manufacturer to provide, at least, some form of I/O beyond 
line printers and punch card readers / punches or to support different 
character sets. 
Algorithms could be written in ALGOL or FORTRAN, but usually had to be 
'translated' to the particular flavour of the language provided by the 
manufacturer... 
[Even well past 1960, FORTRAN implementations drifted from standards... for 
example, FORTRAN on the Data General Nova supported recursive functions, 
something that was would cause massive problems on other systems...] 

From: "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only"  
To: "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only"  
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 9:34:18 AM 
Subject: Re: Early Programming Books 

Aside from the very general Algol report and the Iverson book on APL, I 
have to admit that most of my programming knowledge came out of 
manufacturer's manuals, specific to a maker's systems. 

The APL book was, at the time, pretty much useless for writing any sort 
of serious code until you got hold of the manual for a particular system 
that you were going to use. Even the early McCracken books on FORTRAN 
had a section in the rear that attempted to gloss over different 
manufacturer's features and "extensions" (e.g. What does "B" punched in 
column 1 of a FORTRAN statement card mean--and for what system?) 

Lest anyone forget, that in the pre-1960 world, a lot more of production 
code was written in the assembly code/autocoder of a particular system. 
Even the DEC "Introduction to Programming" dealt specifically with the 
PDP-8 and was useless for the PDP-10. 

ACM CALGO back then accepted algorithm submissions in FORTRAN or Algol, 
but that's hardly an instructional text. 

I guess the question boils down to 'In the world before 1960, how 
*useful* was a general book on programming?" 

--Chuck 

Re: Early Programming Books

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

I have two books on ALGOL 60 from 1962 - 
A Guide to ALGOL Programming, Daniel D. McCracken 
A Primer Of ALGOL 60 Programming, E.W. Dijkstra 

For APL, there is this from 1962 - 
A Programming Language, Kenneth E. Iverson 

However, I also have a reference from 1960 - 
LISP I Programmer's Manual, J. McCarthy et al. 

From: "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts Only"  
To: "Paul Birkel" , "General Discussion, On-Topic Posts 
Only" , "dave g4ugm"  
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 5:57:08 AM 
Subject: Re: Early Programming Books 

On 2021-06-20 1:39 p.m., Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: 
> Dave; 
> 
> I'm much more curious about programming books that were *not* machine 
> specific. 
> That is, about "general principles" of designing/preparing software for 
> execution. 

Not sure if it's what you are looking for, but if you haven't, check out 
"Classic Operating Systems" by Per Brinch Hansen. 

> 
> Of course, one needs a language; McCracken (1957) defines TYDAC. 
> Much later (1968) Knuth defines MIX. 
> 
> In between perhaps one could argue that ALGOL 58 qualifies as such a 
> language-for-demonstration, but I don't believe that there were any books 
> specifically about programming in ALGOL 58. I presume that there were 
> eventually such books for ALGOL 60. 

Pretty sure I own one, by Dijkstra. Will get details later if you are 
interested. 

--Toby 

> 
> Then there's FORTRAN, in which context I first encountered McCracken (1961: 
> Guide to FORTRAN Programming). 
> 
> Obviously my first example was EDSAC-centric. And yours is specific to the 
> Manchester MK1. 
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: dave.g4...@gmail.com [mailto:dave.g4...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2021 6:57 AM 
> To: 'Paul Birkel'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' 
> Subject: RE: Early Programming Books 
> 
> Paul, 
> What about machine specific manuals, so for example the Manchester MK1 
> programming manual, the second edition of which is archived here:- 
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20090526192456/http://www.computer50.org/kgill/m 
> ark1/progman.html 
> 
> In fact I expect that first book refers specifically to EDSAC, so is in 
> effect machine specific. There must have been similar manuals for other 
> machines? 
> 
> I know there is a Ferranti Pegasus Programming manual, the copy I have is 
> dated 1962 but as the last Pegasus was produced in 1959 there must have been 
> earlier editions. 
> 
> Dave 
> 
>> -Original Message- 
>> From: cctech  On Behalf Of Paul Birkel via 
>> cctech 
>> Sent: 20 June 2021 09:44 
>> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'  
>> Subject: Early Programming Books 
>> 
>> I know of two early computer (in the stored program sense) programming 
>> books. 
>> 
>> 1951: Preparation of Programs for an Electronic Digital Computer 
> (Wilkes, Wheeler, & Gill) 
>> 1957: Digital Computer Programming (McCracken) 
>> 
>> What others were published prior to the McCracken text? 
>> 
>> Excluded are lecture compendia and symposia proceedings, such as: 
>> 
>> 1946: Moore School Lectures 
>> 1947: Proceedings of a Symposium on Large-Scale Digital Calculating 
> Machinery 
>> 1951: Proceedings of a Second Symposium on Large-Scale Digital 
> Calculating Machinery 
>> 1953: Faster Than Thought, A Symposium On Digital Computing Machines 
>> 
>> These were principally about designs for, and experience with, new 
> hardware. 
>> 
>> I'm curious about texts specifically focused on the act of programming. 
>> Were there others prior to McCracken? 
>> 
>> paul 
> 
> 

Re: APL\360

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

I was responsible for the Macintosh version and hence was both permitted to 
address the changes and criticized for impacting the Windows builds - the 
changes were in shared code. 
I would probably face legal issues if I named names. 
[You can always look me up in LinkedIn and, with minor detective skills, guess 
which product...] 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2021 6:57:28 PM 
Subject: Re: APL\360 

It was thus said that the Great Norman Jaffe via cctalk once stated: 
> 
> It happened to me as well - I found hundreds of warnings in the code and, 
> after getting permission to address them, I was fired 

Wait ... you got *permission* and were still *fired*? Have I just been 
fortunate in where I've worked my entire career? [1] 

> because 'we would 
> have to recompile the Windows version due to the changes you made'; the 
> source code was reverted to the state before I made the changes. 

Wouldn't you have to recompile the Windows version for updates? Or was 
the company too cheap (or was unable to) run regression tests? 

> I refuse 
> to have their product on any system that I have involvement with... 

Can you name names? Or do you need to protect yourself? 

-spc 

[1] Possibly yes. 

Re: APL\360

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

It happened to me as well - I found hundreds of warnings in the code and, after 
getting permission to address them, I was fired because 'we would have to 
recompile the Windows version due to the changes you made'; the source code was 
reverted to the state before I made the changes. 
I refuse to have their product on any system that I have involvement with... 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2021 3:08:28 PM 
Subject: Re: APL\360 

It was thus said that the Great Will Cooke via cctalk once stated: 
> 
> > On 01/29/2021 4:42 PM David Barto via cctalk  wrote: 
> 
> > Whenever I start a new job the first thing I do today is enable -Werror; 
> > all warnings are errors. And I’ll fix every one. Even when everyone 
> > claims that “These are not a problem”. Before that existed, I’d do the 
> > same with lint, and FlexeLint when I could get it. 
> 
> That's exactly what I did. I was promptly told I was likely to get fired 
> for it. 

WHY? Why would you get fired for fixing warnings? Would it make some 
manager upstream look bad or something? 

-spc 

Re: APL\360

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

I have found that the ideal combination of languages to learn early are APL, 
Simula, LISP and Smalltalk. 
I was lucky enough to have started programming when that was possible. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2021 4:13:26 PM 
Subject: Re: APL\360 

On 1/15/21 3:07 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: 

> But being an APL programmer does not preclude using all the other 
> languages. One need to pick the language suitable for the job. 
> Back in the days when APL, COBOL, Fortran, ALGOL, etc. were the 
> norm languages were created domain specific. Today they are all 
> just General Purpose. 

That's certainly true, but using a traditional language, such as JOVIAL 
or PL/I is a lot more straightforward to an APL programmer (just view 
everything as scalar and forget about the vector operators) than the 
reverse. 

My point is that taking APL as a starting point leads one to think about 
problems differently. 

--Chuck 

Re: APL\360

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

I remember colleagues competing for the most 'interesting' one-liner in APL 
that actually did something useful, in university. 
I wrote several different kinds of simulator, one of which generated APL code 
on the fly that was then executed... plus a database-or-two. 
I've been actively collecting APL memorabilia and books for years now... if I 
could find an MCM/70 it would be awesome... 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 6:22:39 PM 
Subject: Re: APL\360 

On 1/14/21 5:44 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: 
> I was just poking around the computerhistory.org website, searching for Knuth 
> stuff. 
> 
> The second or third hit when I search for "Knuth" is this one: 
> https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-apl-programming-language-source-code/ . 
> It's not just about APL, it actually has a downloadable copy of the source 
> code. And it points to an executable version, apparently a packaged up 
> Hercules running that code. 
> 
> Nice. I'll have to give it a try. 


I recall Neil Lincoln (he of CDC/ETA) relating that he taught APL to his 
kids and his wife (APL was pretty much a natural for the STAR) as a 
first programming language. 

I took some time to learn it fairly well, but never really had any 
opportunity to use it much, so it's gone into the memory dustbin of old 
never-used languages of my brain. 

A co-worker back when would never use the name of the book or the 
abbreviation. He always referred to it as "that Iverson language" or "TIL". 

And it's comparatively easy to write short, perfectly opaque code in 
APL; probably more so than other common languages. 

--Chuck 

Re: Old mainframes in Finland

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

What a lovely collection of IBM 1800 systems! 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 11:27:02 AM 
Subject: Re: Old mainframes in Finland 

On 07.10.20 20:14, Cindy Croxton via cctalk wrote: 
> I received permission to share this link. These are in a personal collection 
> in Finland. Don't drool too hard :-) 

That is Johannes Thelens' collection, located not all that far fom Helsinki. 

Johannes has very kindly showed me around his collection, and he sure has some 
nice stuff around ! 


Jos 

Re: AlphaServer 2100s available

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Not DEC-related, but I once had an IBM 1800 shipped from where we'd purchased 
it to a storage locker in a different city, where I lived. 
All was fine until it was unloaded, and the wheels sank into the pavement. 
[That summer was a bit hotter than normal...] 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "Adrian Graham" , "cctalk" 
 
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2020 9:56:56 AM 
Subject: Re: AlphaServer 2100s available 

> On Jul 27, 2020, at 12:38 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk 
>  wrote: 
> 
> ... 
> 
> That reminds me of the time I was transporting a Dodge box (Alpha 4100) 
> between customer sites in a London borough. There were 3 machines, a pair of 
> 4100s and a 2100. 3 of us got the 2100 and a 4100 into the van we had for 
> this task but the 3rd machine wouldn’t fit. No problem, I have a big estate 
> car (station wagon) so could put it in the back of that. 
> 
> I strapped it in with occy straps (the elasticated type) and put the brakes 
> on the front wheels but the thing was so heavy that when the car moved 
> forwards the machine didn’t and burst through the back window. A small girl 
> out on the street said ‘look Mum, that man’s broken his window!’ 

Those straps are nice for holding packages weighing up to maybe 10 pounds or 
so. Something non-stretchy, like cargo webbing ratchet straps, well-tied ropes, 
or in extreme cases chains, are for heavy stuff. I had some fun years ago 
moving a lathe, in pieces the heaviest of which was around 800 pounds. That's a 
quick course in how to secure stuff well. 

Your story reminds me of the -- perhaps apocryphal -- story of the RP04 (RP03?) 
that was being air-freighted out of Boston airport. It wasn't correctly tied 
down, so when the takeoff roll started, it stayed put. Same sort of consequence 
as yours except that it left out the back of the airplane, through the 
fuselage, bouncing off the runway. 

The story says that it was taken back to Maynard, uncrated, set up with a 
couple of bricks underneath one of the corners that was pushed in 6 inches or 
so, and tested. It still worked. I guess DEC built sturdy, and from your 
experience they kept doing that for a long time. 

paul 

Re: Ancient transistor ?computer board

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Given that the encoding of the address is likely radix-64, and there are 717 
characters from the '.com/' to '?authuser=0', the resulting address 'space' 
would be 10^1295... and the number of particles in the observable universe is 
estimated to be 10^80 to 10^90, depending on whether photons are counted... 
So the address given would need to be for a meta-universe of meta-universes... 
of universes. 
Which would make the server that needed such an address either multidimensional 
or incomprehensibly big. 
I suspect that response time on such a server would be challenging, given the 
constraint of the speed of light. 
In fact, attempting to load a web-page from the server would involved waiting 
until the heat-death of the meta-universe of meta-universes... of universes. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "Liam Proven" , "cctalk"  
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 12:29:25 PM 
Subject: Re: Ancient transistor ?computer board 

>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/byRPH3wCR2aqxGX9U8BZfFTT_XtF7QCKSyVXoNmGIk 
>> UheiJ5BWqxYaCWdEshppLGYkOqUD7fl9XNeVzO_tDRKVOtbC3Js7T-pOvNUHs9MY9A36fc7dU6ro 
>> 1i7hx9Uhcfc6ukEGIdC5Ac6aTQhEFFoeWBxiI6Z24hZdvq1r6vRb4o-Lj778Wbo15hwxu0JxMuxE 
>> tcopNv0FG0_g6nUv0Eofalqu4TmgPfUWVCd4Y4LdA0pnhDRMYF5c2ASzS00TsyukCVrUyr298tjo 
>> vztVzUGEPHNL1beVCriuQIBLITaEMX3N8EBDuxpfav0vHFuyy9yfAgUI4uJB9qT6aFGEk2KplIVt 
>> yNWZf9phTdj-jLtqns9WvdA9Ur2klrk4uPzMyWg6SKTKRlpMrvbJuMnqZodzxPFPvWCG5--kVVBD 
>> KRAXW8xOTOPyxXx0xrcPifO49ni2SFYIkZgTb9d4gzvJaM8ugEb-jqHlc7uqHz5glwe4PfoN838w 
>> zMozr43veZSNHRTm9IMfON-w7xvbVufJpa_MzhuaTlKf9pvVcRIuxfhG4pMeVq7K6phhHpsKPfG5 
>> h4BRgDSimCE8mToI35IWS3Ty8j01-6bibKH_kB-t35aIdkv7JIC-YZ1sDoguSdyk8h1xbM2d9i_U 
>> LFQYVC0oCHESgEGdqzGO3ntgwmV4khjgaQkcp2Bk-TuC7Nwrl57JI=w654-h871-no?authuser= 
>> 0 

On Tue, 16 Jun 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: 
> Um. Gosh. 
> Yeah, you are going to need to use a URL shortener. Bit.ly is pretty 
> good as it lets you create your own memorable links. 

Q: Is that link adequate to unambiguously identify any specific location 
within any sub-atomic particle in the universe? (such as far more 
detail than is required for the PHYSICAL LOCATION of the start of the file??) 

OTOH, when will we have a compression for which that is adequate for the 
content of the file? 

Are there any browsers with a small enough buffer for the URL (and poor 
enough input checking) for which pasting the above could be a buffer 
overflow exploit? 

Or, is the above link an offset within the digits of PI to a location that 
matches the content of the file? 

Re: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Yes, and on some machines, like the IBM 1800, small numeric constants are 
stored in a common location, to reduce the size of executable images. 
So, once you've changed 4 to 5, it means that all programs that get loaded will 
now use 5 when they meant 4. 
Usually the generated code has a way to refer to zero without using the common 
constant area, but not numbers like 1 or 2, so setting 1 or 2 to zero will have 
'interesting' effects. 
Especially if the machine is controlling heavy equipment. 
[I bear witness to the result - been there, did that...] 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Monday, June 1, 2020 11:40:10 PM 
Subject: Re: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC 

On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 at 00:14, Eric Korpela via cctalk 
 wrote: 

> C 
> C CHANGE THE VALUE OF 4 
> C 
> 
> CALL INC(4) 
> WRITE (*, 30) 4 
> 30 FORMAT ('2+2=',I4) 
> END 
> 
> SUBROUTINE INC(I) 
> I = I + 1 
> END 
> 
>  OUTPUT 
> 2+2= 5 

I had no idea, and I wrote a lot of FORTRAN for a few years. I just 
tested the above with the Fortran-77 compiler for my ND-100 mini, and 
yes, it prints 2+2= 5 

Re: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Fun that I have had with Fortran: 
1) Passing an integer constant where a variable was expected, and having that 
constant modified by the called routine; on an IBM 1800 / TSX, small integer 
constants were stored in an area shared with the operating system, so it was 
supremely easy to change the value of 5 for all programs on the machine. 
2) Naming a program with my first name (Norm) and having it go into an infinite 
loop when it did a floating point calculation. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:32:38 PM 
Subject: Re: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC 

On 5/29/20 3:41 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: 
Yes, a pointer to the PC Interrupt Vector Table could be problematic. 
> 
> C lets you do a lot of things that some other languages will protect you 
> from. Accordingly, Allen Holub titled one of his books about C, "Enough 
> Rope To Shoot Yourself In The Foot" 
> ISBN-10: 0070296898 
> ISBN-13: 978-0070296893 

Oh, FORTRAN can do likewise--I suspect that most languages can be coaxed 
(perhaps with some assembly-language subroutines)to do something nasty. 

Two cases in point (but I have lots more). In the CDC 60-bit machines, 
one of the most useful functions was LOC(). It passes the address of 
the argument. Note that this was basically a single instruction as 
FORTRAN uses call-by-reference in most older versions. 

The other aspect of the CDC operating systems is that PPMTR looked 
periodically at each user's location 1 for system requests. So, it was 
a simple matter to use LOC() to obtain a negative subscript into an 
array to write and read that location. With the ability to make system 
requests directly (and directly address user memory), the sky is the 
limit. Indeed several user-written system utilities were written using 
just that technique. The CDC iron is word-addressable only. 

(Other abuses were the arbitrary target for the ASSIGNed GOTO, but 
that's another subject). 

Similarly, BASIC, depending on the version, could be abused. One 
technique was to use a character array with the BASED attribute (I don't 
know if I was the first to invent that keyword, but it was around 1978). 
That turned the variable into a pointer and one could change the area 
that the variable pointed to with the BASE...AT statement. Several 
utilities were written in this fashion, including a few that located the 
video refresh buffer and wrote to it directly. 

I've been known to do similar nasty things in COBOL. 

Side question: How does one create named COMMON in C? 

--Chuck 

Re: Living Computer Museum

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Thank you. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "Electronics Plus" , "cctalk"  
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 1:05:17 PM 
Subject: RE: Living Computer Museum 

Just to make sure everyone knows that we haven't lost our minds: 

Nothing is going in the skip/dumpster/e-waste recycling bin. It's a long pause, 
that's all. 




Rich Alderson 
ex-Sr. Systems Engineer/Curator emeritus 
Living Computers: Museum + Labs 
2245 1st Ave S 
Seattle, WA 98134 

Cell: (206) 465-2916 
Desk: (206) 342-2239 

http://www.LivingComputers.org/ 



-Original Message- 
From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Electronics Plus via 
cctalk 
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 9:00 AM 


I sold a complete Displaywriter system with at least 7 terminals and keyboards, 
and a 3278 terminal with keyboard to them some years back. I hope those don't 
wind up in the skip! 



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This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. 
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Re: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

C is portable by design and runs on many architectures. 
It doesn't need 512Kb of RAM and it doesn't depend on Unix. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 1:20:56 PM 
Subject: Re: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC 

On 5/29/2020 12:42 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: 
> At 10:59 AM 5/29/2020, Jecel Assumpcao Jr via cctech wrote: 
>> The modern variation of the Turing Tarpit. At least they come to this 
>> illusion honestly given that you even have people who think implementing 
>> Forth in C is the way to go. 
> 
> What, are you saying that someone couldn't write some Perl or Python 
> to translate the GW BASIC assembler to portable C? 
> 
> - John 

Is C portable because most the machines the same kind,8/16/32 bits 
with greater than 512kb ram? or that C runs on more kinds machines? Or 
is C portable because of unix? 
BTW Microsoft also had Fortan, You don't hear much about that. 
Ben. 

Re: FedEX unsurance issues

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

And UPS isn't any better. 
I had a package delivered with a big hole in it, and they claimed that it was 
given to them that way. 
However, the hole was right through their shipping documents... they refunded 
the shipping, but not the insurance on the item that they had destroyed with 
their forklifts. 
Right now they are holding a package that was shipped to me and won't tell me 
why they can't deliver it. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu 
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 7:08:25 AM 
Subject: FedEX unsurance issues 

Hi, a heads-up on sending expensive items via FedEx. They appear to have a new 
policy, limiting honouring insurance coverage; so, in my opinion, they are 
now unsuitable for shipping valuable items. 

Data point 1: a couple of months back, I bought a PDP-11/40 on eBait. It was 
shipped via FedEx in two separate packages: one with boards, and one holding 
the chassis/front-panel. They somehow managed to lose the second box - and 
then refused to fully pay out the insurance coverage on that box. We provided 
them with data on an open eBay auction for an identical item, to prove that 
our valuation was not inflated, but it didn't help - they only paid out a 
reduced amout, not what the thing was worth, and _what we had insured it for_ 
(even though _they_ lost it). 

Data point 2: I collect Japanese woodblock prints; a large dealer I do 
business with used to do all their shipping via FedEx - dozens of shipments 
per week - but as of yesterday I as informed that they are now switching. Why? 
FedEx lost a valuable, insured, package - and would only pay out US1K on it, 
not the full insured value, leaving the dealer to absorb most of the loss 
(several US$K). 

There's a clear pattern here; FedEx is refusing to honour the full insurance 
coverage when an item is lost. So I wouldn't ship anythihg valuable via FedEx 
unless you can find an outside insurer to cover it - since Fedex's own 
insurance coverage now often cannot be relied upon. 

Noel 

Re: pdp11/05 key?

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

I hope that you mean 'hardware porn', not 'hardcore porn'... :) 


From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 10:22:43 AM 
Subject: Re: pdp11/05 key? 

> On 4/9/20 2:56 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: 
>> Right said Fred: 
>>> MOST of the other PDP machines use the XX2247 key, which is a tubular one. 
>>> But, THIS thread is about the weird one that is NOT tubular. 
>> Here is my locksmith-cut 11/05 key attached to my pdp11 keyfob: 
>> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3110483 
On Thu, 9 Apr 2020, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: 
> The key fob is pretty cool! 

But, we like hardcore porn. 
How about some pictures of the machine? 
(key in the lock, with covers off, and panels open!) 

Re: Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Hi: 
Is the IBM 5110 Basic, Basic/APL or APL? 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:40:48 PM 
Subject: Vintage Computer Warehouse Liquidation 

This is my first of many posts that I will make about this sale. 

I am liquidating a large warehouse filled with vintage computers including 
Apple, DEC, IBM, Commodore, Tandy/Radio Shack, HP, and more. Many items are 
currently inaccessible due to large piles of junk and video games. 

So far, I have found: 

Apple Lisa 2 
Tandy 6000 HD 
IBM 5251 Keyboard 
MicroVAX 3900 (currently inaccessible) 
MicroVAX II (currently inaccessible) 
Cromemco System One 
Ohio Scientific Challenger 2p 
Lots of Apple II series 
IBM 5110 
Piles of VT100s 
Even more VT220, VT320 
Northstar Advantage 
Osborne 1 
Various Kaypros 
PC clones 
Commodore B-Series 
Just about every kind of TRS-80 
IBM XT with monitor in box 
NeXT cube 
Almost every type of Macintosh 
Amigas 
IBM PS/2 P70 
HP 3000 (inaccessible) 
1970s HP computers 
Boxes filled with Cromemco and Northstar manuals 
A pallet of 1980s PC clones (inaccessible) 

Heaps of CRT monitors 

Mechanical Keyboards 
At least 20 Apple Extended Keyboard II's 

I have barely scratched the surface of the warehouse, and will keep you 
updated when I find more items, or am able to move the large systems. 

The DEC terminals are not yet for sale, since I have not yet found the 
keyboards. 

I am not taking offers on the entire warehouse at this time. 

Please feel free to text me with questions 


Thomas Raguso 

(832) 374-2803 

Re: Shipping from Europe to USA

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

I had an interesting experience with UPS - they shipped me a tape library from 
the U.S. to Canada... when it arrived, the inside was completely trashed. 
As in, no recognizable components bigger than a credit card. 
UPS insisted that the condition of the tape library was as they received it for 
shipment. 
Until I sent them a photograph of the puncture mark made by THEIR forklift, 
right through THEIR shipping documents... 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 12:21:39 PM 
Subject: Re: Shipping from Europe to USA 

> On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk  
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:57 PM, Peter Corlett via cctalk 
>>  wrote: 
>> 
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 06:30:10PM +, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: 
>> ... 
>>> Only UPS did … and yes, the “horror” stories *are* true. They managed to 
>>> drop 
>>> the package. Not from 4 inches above ground, but more, because a *steel 
>>> corner* had a dent! 
>> 
>> Hence that old joke: "If being air dropped out of a C-130 into a minefield 
>> constitutes 'moderately rough handling', what constitutes 'very rough 
>> handling'?" "Being shipped UPS". 
> 
> I'm reminded of a legendary story from a long time ago, of a DEC disk being 
> air-shipped to a customer. RP03? Not sure, but something of that size class. 
> 
> The story was that the shipping company hadn't strapped it down properly, so 
> when the plane applied takeoff power, the drive slid backwards in the cargo 
> hold. Fast enough to exit the hold through the airplane skin, landing on the 
> runway with a nice bounce. 
> 
> The drive was taken back to Maynard, where it was observed that the corner of 
> the frame was badly bent. The techs propped it up on a cinder block and 
> turned the drive on; it worked fine. 
> 
> Sure sounds like a fairy tale, but it's a fun one. 

Friend who owned a larger regional ISP back in the day bought a new Ascend MAX. 
It shipped UPS and arrived with a perfect boot print on the side of the box. To 
this day we still make jokes about UPS playing soccer with the package. 

(Semi-related side story; A few months after installation, the Max started 
dropping calls on one line card. Ascend refused to RMA it because it passed 
diagnostics. They went back and forth over for a week or so until one day their 
sysadmin had enough; He calmly removed the card from the chassis and, with an 
Ascend tech on speakerphone, smashed the thing to bits with a hammer. “Oh, it 
just failed. Won’t pass diagnostics anymore.” He got his RMA number. The 
replacement card worked without issue for the next several years.) 

Re: Electr* Engineering

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Hi Kevin: 
Yup. I haven't heard anything about Gana for decades, but Chris is on 
Facebook... I graduated in 1977... you'll probably also remember Rick Hobson, 
Jerry Barenholtz, Tom Calvert and Nick Cercone... 
For those not from SFU - https://www.sfu.ca/computing/about/history.html 

From: "Kevin McQuiggin"  
To: "myself" , "cctalk"  
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 9:18:53 AM 
Subject: Re: Electr* Engineering 

Norman, I recall you! 

I was at SFU first as a high school student from 1975 then as an undergrad 
1977-1981. 

Elma, Doreen, Ted Sterling, James Weinkam - you’ll remember them! 

I was a TA as well in the late 1970s and classes were small, especially upper 
level. 5-6 students per class and we’d TA one another based on our 
specialities. Mine was system software, OSes, a bit of hardware. It was a great 
“classic” university eduction, not the big machine it is now. 

Best wishes, 

Kevin 


Remember Gana and Chris Dewhurst? 

> On Aug 13, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk  
> wrote: 
> 
> Kevin - which university did you go to? 
> I was in the first class at Simon Fraser University that started in Computing 
> Science (1974) rather than transferring in from another department... we 
> often had TAs in one class that were students in the next one, as they had 
> taken the first class earlier... 
> 
> From: "cctalk"  
> To: "Adam Thornton" , "cctalk"  
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:50:15 AM 
> Subject: Re: Electr* Engineering 
> 
> In my school in Canada, the computing science program started about 1974 and 
> grew out of the math department, but when it was formalized as a department 
> in 1976-77 the university wisely placed it in a new “Interdisciplinary 
> Studies” faculty and staffed the school with people from mathematics, 
> chemistry, physics, and some external engineering folks. 
> 
> It worked out very well and the program was recognized shortly as one of the 
> best in Canada due to recognition of CS’ interdisciplinary nature. 
> 
>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 11:05 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk 
>>  wrote: 
>> 
>> At Rice in the early 90s the department was "Electrical and Computer 
>> Engineering" if my hazy memory serves. 
>> 
>> The genealogy of Computer Science departments (and their curricula) (at 
>> least in the US) is also weird and historically-contingent. Basically it 
>> seems to have been a tossup at any given school whether it came out of the 
>> Electr[ical|onic] Engineering department, in which case it was memories and 
>> logic gates and a bottom-up, hardware-focused curriculum, or out of the 
>> Mathematics department, in which case it was algorithms and complexity 
>> analysis and a software-focused curriculum. 
>> 
>> Adam 

Re: Electr* Engineering

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Kevin - which university did you go to? 
I was in the first class at Simon Fraser University that started in Computing 
Science (1974) rather than transferring in from another department... we often 
had TAs in one class that were students in the next one, as they had taken the 
first class earlier... 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "Adam Thornton" , "cctalk"  
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:50:15 AM 
Subject: Re: Electr* Engineering 

In my school in Canada, the computing science program started about 1974 and 
grew out of the math department, but when it was formalized as a department in 
1976-77 the university wisely placed it in a new “Interdisciplinary Studies” 
faculty and staffed the school with people from mathematics, chemistry, 
physics, and some external engineering folks. 

It worked out very well and the program was recognized shortly as one of the 
best in Canada due to recognition of CS’ interdisciplinary nature. 

> On Aug 12, 2019, at 11:05 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk 
>  wrote: 
> 
> At Rice in the early 90s the department was "Electrical and Computer 
> Engineering" if my hazy memory serves. 
> 
> The genealogy of Computer Science departments (and their curricula) (at least 
> in the US) is also weird and historically-contingent. Basically it seems to 
> have been a tossup at any given school whether it came out of the 
> Electr[ical|onic] Engineering department, in which case it was memories and 
> logic gates and a bottom-up, hardware-focused curriculum, or out of the 
> Mathematics department, in which case it was algorithms and complexity 
> analysis and a software-focused curriculum. 
> 
> Adam 

Re: Identification of an HP minicomputer

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Perhaps these will help? 
https://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwimg=108 
http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/hewlett-packard/hp-21mx 


From: "Guy Sotomayor Jr"  
To: "myself" , "cctalk"  
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 3:04:31 PM 
Subject: Re: Identification of an HP minicomputer 

It’s a 9-slot variant that says HP-1000 M-Series on the front panel. From what 
I can tell the front panel appears to be the same as any of the other HP-1000 
series. 

What I’m trying to figure out is what the actual CPU configuration is without 
disassembly (which I still need to figure out) so that I can actually examine 
the boards. 

Thanks. 

TTFN - Guy 

> On Aug 12, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk  
> wrote: 
> 
> Can you provide a picture of the front panel? 
> 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the 
> fourteen-slot would be a 2113. 
> This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . 
> 
> From: "cctalk"  
> To: "cctalk"  
> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM 
> Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer 
> 
> Hi, 
> 
> I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I’m trying to 
> identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of 
> configuration it might have). 
> 
> As far as I can tell, it’s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should 
> hopefully get us *some* details). The “asset tag” lists the part number as 
> 2113023-108. Looking at the back there’s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are 
> occupied). 
> 
> So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell 
> (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). 
> 
> Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look 
> at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can’t tell what’s 
> there and I’d like to see if there’s a way to determine what this is without 
> resorting to disassembly. 
> 
> Thanks. 
> 
> TTFN - Guy 

Re: Identification of an HP minicomputer

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Can you provide a picture of the front panel? 
2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot 
would be a 2113. 
This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM 
Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer 

Hi, 

I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I’m trying to 
identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of 
configuration it might have). 

As far as I can tell, it’s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should 
hopefully get us *some* details). The “asset tag” lists the part number as 
2113023-108. Looking at the back there’s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are 
occupied). 

So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell 
(for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). 

Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at 
the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can’t tell what’s there 
and I’d like to see if there’s a way to determine what this is without 
resorting to disassembly. 

Thanks. 

TTFN - Guy 

Re: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

I built a dual-6809 in the late '70s - it was a brand-new, exciting part - and 
we used the E part for exactly that reason. The system used memory that had an 
access time that was better than the 4x clock, so that each processor could run 
at full speed. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "Liam Proven" , "cctalk"  
Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 12:19:55 AM 
Subject: Re: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor 

On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 11:15 AM Liam Proven via cctalk < 
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: 

> 1993 article on building a multiprocessor 6809 box. 
> http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/6809cpu.htm 
> 

I disagree very much with the author's advice to use the MC6809 rather than 
the MC6809E. With the E version you have to supply a quadrature clock, but 
all that's required to generate that is a single-phase 4x clock (which you 
need with either the E or non-E part) and a single 74HCT74. If you feed 
your single-phase 4x clock into multiple 6809 (non-E) parts, their E clock 
phases won't match, but will be off by arbitrary multiples of 1/4 cycle, 
which makes the shared memory design unnecessarily difficult. 

Re: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

'Is that a toonie in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?' 


From: "cctalk"  
To: "Alan Perry" , "cctalk" , 
"Fred Cisin"  
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 10:59:36 AM 
Subject: Re: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an 
IBM 5100 using OCR 

On 06/28/19 13:18, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote (in part): 
> One big problem with dollar coins is cash trays need to be redesigned 
> for them. Maybe if the US got rid of the penny (like Canada has) there 
> would be somewhere to put dollar coins in a register and they would be 
> used more often. 

Canada also replaced the $1- and $2-bill with coins (26.5mm and 28mm, 
resp.). 

N. 
> alan 
> 
> 

Re: Mac 1K

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

I would think that a Mac 1K would have serious performance issues... 


From: "cctalk"  
To: "Electronics Plus" , "cctalk"  
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 12:31:23 PM 
Subject: RE: Mac 1K 

Make that Mac Plus 1MB. Sorry for typo! 
Cindy 

-Original Message- 
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics 
Plus via cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 2:18 PM 
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' 
Subject: Mac 1K 

I recently obtained a Mac 1K in a Mac 512K box. It does not power on, and it 
smells a bit toasty. Does it require a keyboard to power on? I have a 
M0110A. 



Cindy Croxton 

Electronics Plus 

1613 Water Street 

Kerrville, TX 78028 

830-370-3239 cell 

sa...@elecplus.com 





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This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. 
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Re: What is this?

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Hi Cindy: 
It looks like a gang programmer. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 11:21:36 AM 
Subject: What is this? 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/486774619186135050/578282338375565322 
/JPEG_20190515_130651.jpg 

Can anyone identify/explain this to me? The same company made joysticks and 
other peripherals for pre-PC systems. 



Cindy Croxton 

Electronics Plus 

1613 Water Street 

Kerrville, TX 78028 

830-370-3239 cell 

sa...@elecplus.com 





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This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. 
https://www.avast.com/antivirus 

middle-aged APL terminal

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Hi All: 
This is my periodic request for technical details on a Cybernex APL-100 
terminal - the only documentation that I have for it is the sales brochure... 

Re: OT RE: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

There are also filaments that can be dissolved - they're mainly used for 
support structures, but could also be used for 'lost-wax' casting. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2018 2:31:02 PM 
Subject: Re: OT RE: 3D printer $179.99 (today ONLY) (Was: 8-Update 

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Jay West wrote: 
> Some are casting metal parts by 3d printing molds. 

Besides printing molds, I have heard that there is now a filament 
available that can be melted out/away, for a variant of lost-wax 
[sandbox?] casting. 

Re: BIG ol tektronix scope 555 - need it gone - make an offer

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

I was doing something similar, on a PDP8/L driving a Tektronix scope with a 
camera attached, using code written in Focal - University of Washington, 1972. 
I learned a great deal about font generation, given that the code had to trace 
out each letter shape via X, Y coordinates... 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "Toby Thain"  
Cc: "cctalk"  
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2018 1:33:52 PM 
Subject: Re: BIG ol tektronix scope 555 - need it gone - make an offer 

> On Dec 11, 2018, at 3:30 PM, Toby Thain  wrote: 
> 
> On 2018-12-11 9:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 11, 2018, at 7:59 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk  
>>> wrote: 
>>> 
>>> On 2018-12-11 1:17 AM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: 
 The line about being used with an early computer as a display caught my 
 eye. How would it be used as a display, what kind of graphics capability 
 would it have? is there an interface for the thing for the pdp 11 or a 
 modcomp? Those are the old systems i have on hand that i might be able to 
 interface to it. 
>>> 
>>> A scope is at heart an electrostatic CRT with X and Y deflection ... 
>>> 
>>> For digital computers, output is point plotting, vector drawing, and/or 
>>> character generation depending on the sophistication (= cost) of the 
>>> hardware involved. You'd also need to find or write suitable software :) 
>>> 
>>> Yes, there were interface cards for PDP-11, such as AA11 (dual DACs). 
>> 
>> I made such a setup in college: we had an 11/20 with AA11 (and other lab I/O 
>> gear). I hooked those up to the X/Y inputs of a scope, and a digital I/O 
>> line to the Z input. Then loaded coordinate pairs into a buffer on the RC11 
>> disk, which was set up to do DMA directly to the AA11 data CSR. Worked 
>> nicely, and with low overhead on a machine that certainly could not afford 
>> to do refresh in software. 
> 
> Curious what year that was, if you don't mind disclosing? 

1974, at Lawrence University which had that 11/20 (with 8 kW of memory, 
DECtape, RC11, AA11, AD01, DR11, and ASR33) in the physics lab. 

paul 

Re: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet?

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Having watched two episodes, I find that their estimates of profit on the items 
are not unreasonable - they tend to go with 'doubling our cost'... no insane, 
'Oooh, that's worth megabucks'. 
Not being a big toy aficionado, I'm not sure about the demand for some of the 
items, but there's a lot of oddball stuff that they present, which makes it 
more interesting than the typical "someone's trash is someone else's treasure" 
show. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: a...@alanlee.org, "cctalk"  
Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2018 8:03:26 AM 
Subject: Re: Did anyone see Vintage Tech Hunters on Discovery Canada yet? 

> On 2018-11-08 05:23, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: 
>> I am sure this is not authorized in any way but here's a link to the first 
>> episode on Youtube. 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iroAInAMfYo 

Going to watch this tonight! Excited! 

More TV shows to drive speculation on flipping old stuff versus producing 
new good stuff. But hey, at least it's a subject I like this time :-) 

After American Pickers mentioned some pinball playfield could be turned 
into a coffee table tons of normies with pinball machines thought their 
old crap machines were worth thousands because people turned them into 
expensive coffee tables. Uhm, no. 

Some of the gaming console stuff goes for crazy money right now. I've 
heard China makes "reproductions" of carts but I've never figured out how 
to buy them. I would. Many of my collector friends now would rather buy a 
flash cart and download ROMs versus dealing with the speculative pricing 
on old games. 

It will be interesting to see what happens to the collectibles markets 
when/if the housing bubble pops. 

-- 
: Ethan O'Toole 

Re: helping to clean out an estate - a lot of CRAY

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Hi Paul: 
I'm very interested in Cray items... primarily manuals / books, not software or 
videos; I live in Vancouver, Canada, so shipping won't be super expensive. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk" , cct...@vax-11.org 
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 6:59:11 PM 
Subject: helping to clean out an estate - a lot of CRAY 

A friend of mine passed away a few days ago, and I am helping his brother 
go through boxes of items. He was a research professer at the U of I, but 
also spent time at CMU, Stanford and other places. 

What I have had a chance to sort today follows, and there will be updates 
throughout the week. 

VIDEOS: 

Tony Warnock- CRAY RESEARCH There are 3 tapes /day. I have 1-15 over 5 days? 


Margaret Cahir -Cray Multitasking 6 tapes 


John Rollwagen, CRAY- chairman and ceo,business, q and a organizational 
changes- 4 tapes most dated 87, 88 
also a tape labeled profile composite 


TERA MTA report from SDSC 2 from 98, 1 from 99 

Cray/ Silicon Graphics- The Power To See 

UCA Professional Video Tape Plus- CRAY Applications Video Composite 1986 

1600 BPI Perfect Benchmarks tape 


A FEW of the Reports... 

ACM SIGMETRICS 1994 
ACM SIGMETRICS 2000 
SPAA ACM 2002 
SPAA ACM 2003 

THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF SUPERCOMPUTER APPLICATIONS AND HIGH 
PERFORMANCE COMPUTING VOL 1, NUM 1 SPRING 87 through VOL 8, NUM 2, 
SUMMER 1994 22 volumes, might be missing a few. they could turn up tomorrow 

CRAY -3 Hardware Reference Manual 
CRAY Y-MP System Prog Reef Manual 
Programmer Ref Manual 
Functional Description Manual 
CRAY UNICOS LINE EDITOR 


I have 4-5 more boxes of books i will not get to tonight. There could be 
another 20 boxes or more still there. 

I am looking for reasonable offers and good homes. I am not a software guy, 
my plate is more than full, and I have no place to store it. 

Thanks, Paul 

Re: Unknown US manufacturer - try again

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

The presence of the words 'NAND GATES' imply that this was part of some 
educational kit for logic training, rather than a part of a system. 

From: "General Discussion"  
To: pe...@vanpeborgh.eu, "General Discussion"  
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 11:30:42 AM 
Subject: Re: Unknown US manufacturer - try again 

RCA made boards of this color and size, but not an exact match. Same 
number of pins, similar blue. Not claiming it's RCA, but it's the 
closest thing I have. 
Here is one from a 1974ish COSMAC Microkit: 
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/rca/COSMAC/RCA_GFA-3901808_front.jpg 

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 1:59 PM Peter Van Peborgh via cctech < 
cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote: 

> Guys, 
> 
> See these photos: 
> 
> 
> https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35682272_10216634445119982_2 
> 
> 53889771863015424_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=74459af2e9232dd433046b2a9d43dedd&oe=5BC 
> F55A0 
> 
>  
> 
> and 
> 
> 
> https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36244235_10216691120256825_4 
> 
> 287682979926376448_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=e8ab72feb9eb1cf311c7ef0546318e44&oe=5C 
> 1358C6 
> 
>  
> 
> The photos are of a board I recently obtained for my collection. I've not, 
> to date, been able to discover who the manufacturers were. It almost 
> certainly US, The chips are week 27 of 1970, NAND gates. 
> 
> Can anyone help? 
> 
> Many thanks, 
> peter 
> 
> 
> || | | | | | | | | 
> Peter Van Peborgh 
> 62 St Mary's Rise 
> Writhlington Radstock 
> Somerset BA3 3PD 
> UK 
> 01761 439 234 
> || | | | | | | | | 
> 
> 
> 

Re: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's)

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Speaking of oddball terminals, does anyone have details on Cybernex APL-100 
terminals? 
I acquired one a couple of years ago and have had no luck locating 
documentation for them. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Friday, September 7, 2018 8:41:23 AM 
Subject: Re: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) 

On 9/6/2018 10:38 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: 
> A long time ago, I had the incomplete remnants of an oddball terminal which I 
> retrieved from a junk pile at a small, obscure school in Pasadena. I'll try 
> to describe it as best I can, based on old memory. I could have sworn that it 
> had a dataplate label identifying it as a DEC VT02, but that could be way off 
> the mark. 
> 
> It was built around a Tektronix vector storage display, oriented in portrait 
> mode. It had quite a bit of screen burn from its long life displaying text. I 
> don't recall the model number of the display, but I might recognize one if I 
> saw it. It was quite long, making the whole terminal quite long. It had X, Y 
> and Z BNC inputs, and it had a neat test mode that drew a spiral on the 
> screen. 
> 
> The display sat on top of a long chassis with a keyboard at one end, a small 
> Flip Chip backplane around the middle, and a power supply (probably linear, 
> IIRC) at the rear end. I don't think that the Flip Chip boards were still in 
> it when I got it, but it came along with a small box of spare Flip Chips. 
> 
> After setting the big Tektronix display on top of the lower chassis, there 
> was a long U-shaped sheet metal cover that sat over the top and covered the 
> display, making it look somewhat like a single device rather than a stack of 
> two things. The lower chassis and the top cover were painted approximately 
> white as I recall. 
> 
> I never did anything interesting with the display other than occasionally 
> driving it with signal generators, and I got rid of the whole pile a long, 
> long time ago. 
> 
> Does that old beast sound remotely familiar to anybody here? How hard should 
> I kick myself for not keeping it? 
> 
The display was most likely a Tektronix 611. DEC used them with their 
point plot display systems like the VC8E. 


Bob 

-- 
Vintage computers and electronics 
www.dvq.com 
www.tekmuseum.com 
www.decmuseum.org 

Cybernex APL-100 terminal

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Does anyone in the group have access to documentation for the Cybernex APL-100 
video terminal? 
All that I've been able to locate is a 4 page brochure for it; they were 
originally made in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. 
Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Re: PATA hard disks, anyone?

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Are they functional or decorative? 

From: "cctalk"  
To: et...@757.org, "cctalk"  
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 11:48:22 AM 
Subject: Re: PATA hard disks, anyone? 

On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 10:19 AM, Ethan via cctalk  
wrote: 

> and well... let's just say that "newer" used disks with 4 years on them 
> aren't very reliable. 
> 

If anyone wants some Seagate ST3000DM001 drives (3TB SATA), I've got extras! 
:-( 

Re: HP 2108A key

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Well, that explains one of my mystery keys on my keychain... I used to work 
with HP 1000 systems. 
I still have one of the HP 264x 'keys' which opened up the terminal. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 1:20:42 PM 
Subject: Re: HP 2108A key 

> Unmarked - single sided in an HP 1000 M-series; looks like a cheap 
> generic cam lock, may be a post-sale replacement lock (due to too 
> many keys extant, or the boss wandered off with the key) It is 
> definitely NOT a match for either of the keys that Dennis described. 
> Cuts from bow to tip look like they could be something like 6-1-3-1 
> (depending on depth specs) 

Confession time. I copied the cuts by hand, and did it backwards 
because of the similarty of the key designation. Sigh. 

The correct cuts for the 4T1427 are 7241 read bow to tip. 

I _think_ Christian's last two systems (several photos each) both have 
variants of the 4T1427. 

Here's a catalog entry at CHM for another pair of 4T1427 keys: 
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102668532 

De 

Re: early (pre-1971) edge-triggered D flip-flop ICs

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Or, in today's dollars - $58. Ouch. 

From: "General Discussion"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 1:35:47 AM 
Subject: Re: early (pre-1971) edge-triggered D flip-flop ICs 

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 11:29 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote: 

> I have no datasheet, but I have examples on DEC M-series FLIP-CHIP 
> modules from my PDP-8/L, c. 1968. 
> 
> I am pretty sure I have examples with 1968 date codes and possibly 
> 1967 date codes. 
> 

Thanks! Also, the 1967 Allied catalog lists the SN7474 (flat pack) and 
SN7474N (plastic DIP), priced at $8.00. 

Re: Xerox stores

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

I remember going to a Xerox store in '85 and buying a brand-new Macintosh. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 9:24:10 AM 
Subject: Re: Xerox stores 

On 07/14/2017 09:00 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: 

> Hmmm, I really don't remember any such thing. I suspect that some 
> independent computer store chain got an OK to have a big Xerox logo out 
> on the front. That would be quite believable. Some time in the early 
> 80's there were computer stores popping up overnight like mushrooms, and 
> disappearing just about as fast. 

Nope--they were real. I recall that the one I visited wasn't that far 
from the Moore Business Products store. 

As I mentioned, CDC had storefronts--I still have a Wren II SCSI drive 
that I picked up at the Twin Cities store liquidation. 

TI had a store in the Stanford shopping center. 

--Chuck 

Re: rectangular sense core vs. diagonal

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

There'd be no desk, just dust. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Thursday, June 8, 2017 7:39:40 AM 
Subject: Re: rectangular sense core vs. diagonal 

On Thu, 8 Jun 2017, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: 
> Another reason why things were better in "The Good Old Days": 
> While removing a (spring-loaded) microSD card from a tablet yesterday my 
> fingernail slipped and 32 Gigabytes of data shot out and disappeared 
> somewhere among the dust bunnies behind my desk; that could never have 
> happened with these core modules! 

What would have happened if 32 Gigabytes of data fell on your desk? 

Re: Teletype 43

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

I had an employee of an electronics store tell me that the IBM modem software 
on the 5.25" floppy for Windows would work fine on my Macintosh... in the days 
long before Macintosh systems used non-Motorola processors. 
That was a fun 'discussion'. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "Fred Cisin" , "cctalk"  
Sent: Monday, May 22, 2017 12:57:52 PM 
Subject: Re: Teletype 43 

On Mon, 22 May 2017, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: 

> On Mon, 22 May 2017, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: 
>> Does your PC have real RS232? A lot of "RS232" ports are serial ports, but 
>> not with correct RS232 levels. If you have "TTL RS232" [sic] it won't work 
>> with an actual RS232 port. 
> 
> The "CLASSIC" example: manager of the Radio Shack Computer Center told me 
> that the TRS80 Model 1 Expansion Interface RS-232 board was, "by definition" 
> completely "standard" for RS-232, since "RS-232" stood for "RADIO SHACK 232". 
> 
My jaw would not only have dropped at that statement, but it likely 
would've broken the hinge as well. 

It reminds me of the time a cow-orker went to the local Radio Shack 
looking for a GasFET and was told he'd have better luck at an auto parts 
store. 

g. 


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. 
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. 
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. 

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment 
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. 
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! 

Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful?

[Norman Jaffe via cctalk]

Assembler is a sports car kit. 

From: "cctalk"  
To: "cctalk"  
Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu 
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 7:57:07 AM 
Subject: Re: If C is so evil why is it so successful? 

> From: Alfred M. Szmidt 

> No even the following program: 
> int main (void) { return 0; } 
> is guaranteed to work 

I'm missing something: why not? 

Noel 

PS: There probably is something to the sports car analogy, but I'm not going 
to take a position on that one! :-) Interesting side-question though: is 
assembler more or less like a sports car than C? :-) 

Re: What interest in a

[Norman Jaffe]

I love older machines and had to part with several SGI and HP systems in order 
to 'downsize' enough to fit in my apartment, so an HP-UX laptop is very 
desirable. 
Unfortunately, I don't have access to 80-BUS parts, so my offer would be for 
cash; I'll make my offer outside this forum. 

From: "Richard Smith"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 7:10:22 AM 
Subject: Re: What interest in a 

I'm much less interested in a bidding war that most people would be. The 
computer is sitting on my shelf, it isn't being used, it just takes up 
space. I'm not a dealer in old computers, I don't rely on any profit to 
feed my family. I would prefer that this machine went to someone who 
would use it. Shipping to Canada would be CAN$64 

I would be far happier to swap it for 80-BUS parts than for cash. 

Richard 


On 04/11/2016 13:12, Norman Jaffe wrote: 
> $50 to U.S. would likely be the same for Canada, so I'm still interested... 
> but let's try not to make this into a 'bidding war'. 
> 
> From: "Richard"  
> To: "cctalk"  
> Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 4:26:14 AM 
> Subject: Re: What interest in a 
> 
> Wow! That amount of interest wasn't expected at all. 
> 
> I have a best offer so far of £100 (112€ / $124) plus shipping. 
> 
> The cheapest shipping to the USA would be $50, into Europe would be 18€ 
> for the parcel which weighs in at 8kg / 18lb. All at your risk. 
> 
> I don't want to put it on ebay, I'd much rather it went to a serious 
> user on here but I do want to expand my collection of 80-BUS 
> (NASCOM/GEMINI) parts so anything I get for the PrecisionBook would help. 
> 
> Let me know if you are still interested. 
> 
> Richard 
> 
> On 03/11/2016 14:37, Richard wrote: 
>> Hi to everyone, 
>> 
>> I have a PrecisionBook laptop made by RDI Computer Corporation in 
>> Carlsbad, CA. It's a Model #H16-12-8-256L2S with a 4050mAHr battery, a 
>> 6.5Gb hard drive with data and a 4.0Gb hard drive with HP-UX 10.2. I 
>> also have the charger for it. It works but I have no documentation at 
>> all. 
>> 
>> Is it of any use to anyone or should I dump it? 
>> 
>> Richard 
>> Bristol, UK 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

Re: What interest in a

[Norman Jaffe]

$50 to U.S. would likely be the same for Canada, so I'm still interested... but 
let's try not to make this into a 'bidding war'. 

From: "Richard"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 4:26:14 AM 
Subject: Re: What interest in a 

Wow! That amount of interest wasn't expected at all. 

I have a best offer so far of £100 (112€ / $124) plus shipping. 

The cheapest shipping to the USA would be $50, into Europe would be 18€ 
for the parcel which weighs in at 8kg / 18lb. All at your risk. 

I don't want to put it on ebay, I'd much rather it went to a serious 
user on here but I do want to expand my collection of 80-BUS 
(NASCOM/GEMINI) parts so anything I get for the PrecisionBook would help. 

Let me know if you are still interested. 

Richard 

On 03/11/2016 14:37, Richard wrote: 
> Hi to everyone, 
> 
> I have a PrecisionBook laptop made by RDI Computer Corporation in 
> Carlsbad, CA. It's a Model #H16-12-8-256L2S with a 4050mAHr battery, a 
> 6.5Gb hard drive with data and a 4.0Gb hard drive with HP-UX 10.2. I 
> also have the charger for it. It works but I have no documentation at 
> all. 
> 
> Is it of any use to anyone or should I dump it? 
> 
> Richard 
> Bristol, UK 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: R: What interest in a

[Norman Jaffe]

Hi: 

As an ex-HPer, I'm also interested in this machine, but I suspect that shipping 
to Vancouver, Canada, will be exorbitant. 

From: "Mazzini Alessandro"  
To: "cctalk"  
Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2016 9:05:13 AM 
Subject: R: What interest in a 

Hi, 

very interesting machine. I've always been a fan of hp-ux... 
How much would you think it's going to cost, to ship to Italy ? ( near Milan ) 

Alessandro 

-Messaggio originale- 
Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Per conto di Richard 
Inviato: giovedì 3 novembre 2016 15:38 
A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Oggetto: What interest in a 

Hi to everyone, 

I have a PrecisionBook laptop made by RDI Computer Corporation in Carlsbad, CA. 
It's a Model #H16-12-8-256L2S with a 4050mAHr battery, a 6.5Gb hard drive with 
data and a 4.0Gb hard drive with HP-UX 10.2. I also have the charger for it. It 
works but I have no documentation at all. 

Is it of any use to anyone or should I dump it? 

Richard 
Bristol, UK 

Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...

[Norman Jaffe]

And, to 'put a nail in it', the bitsavers file for the MC68000 is 
'68000_16-Bit_Microprocessor_Apr83.pdf'. 
- Original Message -

From: "Chuck Guzis"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 11:24:11 AM 
Subject: Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use... 

On 09/15/2016 11:03 AM, Peter Corlett wrote: 
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 01:40:56PM -0700, Chris Hanson wrote: 

>> No, the 68000 was a 32-bit CPU, as defined by the register width 
>> and programming model. The fact that it was implemented with a 
>> 16-bit ALU and had a 16-bit data path to memory is immaterial. 
> 
> By that logic, the Z80 is a 16 bit processor because ADC HL, BC and 
> the like exist. It even has a 4 bit ALU and passes data through 
> twice, but this is an invisible implementation detail and it's 
> generally considered to be an 8 bit CPU. Likewise, the existence of 
> zmm0-zmm31 registers don't mean that contemporary x86 is 512 bit. 

My 68K manual, as handed to me by the Moto sales guy at Wescon back in 
the day says "MC68000 16-BIT MICROPROCESSOR User's Manual". Page 1-1 
reiterates essentially the same sentiment: 

"The MC68000...combines state-of-the-art technology and advanced circuit 
design techniques with computer sciences to achieve an architecturally 
advanced 16-bit microprocessor." 

Call it anything you want, but we know what Motorola called it. 

--Chuck 

Re: more vintage computer stuff

[Norman Jaffe]

Hi: 

I don't recognize it, but I collect APL (and LISP) memorabilia and am 
interested in it. 
- Original Message -

From: "Mike Stein"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 12:32:06 PM 
Subject: Re: more vintage computer stuff 

Speaking of keyboards, I have an APL keyboard here but can't remember what 
terminal it's for: 

https://picasaweb.google.com/115794482077177620188/6315055733924603137?authuser=0&feat=directlink
 

Connects via a DA-15; made by Keytronic but can't see any other meaningful 
markings. 

Anybody recognize it, or interested in it for that matter? 

mike 



- Original Message - 
From: "Al Kossow"  
To:  
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 1:38 PM 
Subject: Re: more vintage computer stuff 


> 
> 
> On 7/28/16 9:50 AM, Todd Killingsworth wrote: 
> 
>> Interesting to look over his stuff, but if he's sold anything I've not 
>> heard about it. 
>> 
> 
> Thanks. I've been working on terminal archiving and simulation the past 
> couple of 
> weeks, and I'm sure there are parts in there I could use. 
> 
> Terminals have reached the other side of the bathtub curve, and keyboard 
> prices 
> are insane. I've been really disappointed in the ones I've been buying off 
> eBay. 
> One of them was literally filled with sawdust, another covered in machine oil 
> from it being used in a machine shop. 
> 
> 

Re: Pictures per previous post

[Norman Jaffe]

Hi: 

I'm definitely interested in the TI Explorer II, especially if it is working!!! 
- Original Message -

From: "killingsworth todd"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Sent: Monday, August 1, 2016 3:28:50 PM 
Subject: Re: Pictures per previous post 

Drat. I've always wanted to go poking around a Sun Graphics tower. 

Sent from my iPhone 

> On Aug 1, 2016, at 6:23 PM, Doug Fields  wrote: 
> 
> I took these things home with me: 
> 
> TI Explorer II 
> AT&T 3b2-1000-70 & BLIT monitor 
> Commodore 64 + disk drive 
> HP 85 (non-B, I think) 
> Bunch of NeXT manuals and PowerPC 601/603/604 manuals 
> 
> Cheers, 
> 
> Doug 
> 
>> On Aug 1, 2016, at 6:05 PM, Glen Slick  wrote: 
>> 
>> On Aug 1, 2016 2:57 PM, "Doug Fields"  wrote: 
>>> 
>>> Apparently the list strips HTML out, which I didn't know. 
>>> 
>>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL < 
>> https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0ZGWZuqDGXYWQL> 
>>> 
>>> Try that? 
>>> 
>>> Cheers, 
>>> 
>>> Doug 
>> 
>> TI Explorer II - someone is probably interested in that one. 
> 

Re: APL-100

[Norman Jaffe]

Hi Lee: 

I am aware of the CHM files and I have a number of APL documents that might not 
be in the archive - I'll check sometime this week. 
- Original Message -

From: "Lee Courtney"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" , 
tur...@shaw.ca 
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 8:12:41 AM 
Subject: Re: APL-100 


Hi Norman, 


I don;t have any specific information on this terminal, but wanted to make sure 
you are aware of the APL archive hosted at the Computer History Museum - 
http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/apl/ 


If you run across any APL material not already in the archive please pass along 
a copy and I'd love to add it. 


Thanks! 


Lee Courtney 


On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 6:07 AM, Norman Jaffe < tur...@shaw.ca > wrote: 


Hi: 

I just recently acquired a Cybernex APL-100 APL/ASCII terminal; it appears to 
be complete, but the only documentation that I have for it is a sales brochure. 
Is there anyone familiar with this? It was manufactured in Ottawa, Ontario 
(Canada) in the late '70s - any technical information would be appreciated. 






-- 


Lee Courtney 
+1-650-704-3934 cell 

Re: APL-100

[Norman Jaffe]

Hi: 

I found a picture at 
http://omolini.steptail.com/mirror/www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/tty/index.htm 
that looks just like the terminal that I received. 
- Original Message -

From: "Mike Stein"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts"  
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 9:10:08 AM 
Subject: Re: APL-100 

Is there a picture of this terminal available anywhere? 

TIA, m 

- Original Message - 
From: "Norman Jaffe"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts"  
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 9:07 AM 
Subject: APL-100 


> Hi: 
> 
> I just recently acquired a Cybernex APL-100 APL/ASCII terminal; it appears to 
> be complete, but the only documentation that I have for it is a sales 
> brochure. 
> Is there anyone familiar with this? It was manufactured in Ottawa, Ontario 
> (Canada) in the late '70s - any technical information would be appreciated. 

APL-100

[Norman Jaffe]

Hi: 

I just recently acquired a Cybernex APL-100 APL/ASCII terminal; it appears to 
be complete, but the only documentation that I have for it is a sales brochure. 
Is there anyone familiar with this? It was manufactured in Ottawa, Ontario 
(Canada) in the late '70s - any technical information would be appreciated. 

Re: "Key" to open an HP 264X terminal

[Norman Jaffe]

A knife will also work; I've still got my 'key' from when I used to work with 
HP1000 systems, and it's simply a flat piece of metal. 
- Original Message -

From: "Adrian Stoness"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2016 5:59:40 AM 
Subject: RE: "Key" to open an HP 264X terminal 

Lock pick kits are only 20 bucks... 
On Jun 27, 2016 7:58 AM, "Jay West"  wrote: 

> At least for all of mine, a paperclip wouldn't do it - not strong enough. 
> Small flat blade screwdriver will work. As I recall, it's just to slide a 
> metal catch one direction or the other. 
> 
> J 
> 
> 
> 

Re: old friend is slimming down the warehouse

[Norman Jaffe]

I always thought that they 'preconditioned' the packages by running them over 
with a forklift before shipping, so that they could be packed more closely 
together. 
- Original Message -

From: "Fred Cisin"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2016 10:47:46 AM 
Subject: RE: old friend is slimming down the warehouse 

On Fri, 24 Jun 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: 
> It's amazing how much stuff UPS had managed to destroy "for" me, also. 
> It's like them drop the boxes off a crane or something. 

There is talk about "drone parcel delivery". 

Do UPS and USPS drop their packages from drones or planes? 
Or are they doing their deliveries by trebuchet? (catapult) 

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Norman Jaffe]

Without an MMU or a segmentation scheme, 16-bits = 64K. 
The 68000 is not a 16-bit processor, it's 32-bit, and exposed (ISTR) a 24-bit 
address. 
20-bits = 1M addresses, 24-bits = 16M addresses. 
You're confusing data bus width (8-bit) with address bus width (16-bit). 
- Original Message -

From: "Liam Proven"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 1:29:48 PM 
Subject: Re: strangest systems I've sent email from 

On 22 May 2016 at 04:52, Guy Sotomayor Jr  wrote: 
> Because the 808x was a 16-bit processor with 1MB physical addressing. I 
> would argue that for the time 808x was brilliant in that most other 16-bit 
> micros only allowed for 64KB physical. 


Er, hang on. I'm not sure if my knowledge isn't good enough or if that's a 
typo. 

AFAIK most *8* bits only supported 64 kB physical. Most *16* bits 
(e.g. 68000, 65816, 80286, 80386SX) supported 16MB physical RAM. 

Am I missing something here? 

I always considered the 8088/8086 as a sort of hybrid 8/16-bit processor. 


-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile 
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven 
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven 
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) 

Re: Front panel switches - what did they do?

[Norman Jaffe]

The IBM 1800 was a much simpler machine than the IBM 360/370, yet it had a 
pretty complex front panel - 
http://www.dvq.com/1800/photos/paneln.JPG 
... since not all of the registers could be displayed at the same time . 
- Original Message -

From: "Paul Berger"  
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org 
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 10:18:45 AM 
Subject: Re: Front panel switches - what did they do? 

On 2016-05-24 1:54 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: 
> On Tue, 24 May 2016, Charles Anthony wrote: 
>> Honeywell 6180 display panels: 
>> http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/03/honeywell-6180-system-maintenance-panel.html
>>  
> Holy rocker switch, Batman! Is that all for one machine? That looks like a 
> man-machine interface to run a nuclear power plant or something. FOUR 
> panels. The black panel looks uber-cool. That definitely looks like 
> something from a 60's or 70's James bond film. There needs to be a villain 
> about ready to launch a missile standing next to one. 
> 
> Oh and here is a replica of an Apollo launch computer with a component LED 
> display like I was mentioning: 
> 
> http://i.imgur.com/bbXZVcx.jpg 
> 
> ... probably too expensive to embed in a computer system, but still hard 
> to beat for geek aesthetics. 
> 
> -Swift 
> 
> 
The most impressive one I ever saw was when I was in technician school 
we had a tour of the underground in North Bay Ont. where we saw what was 
probably the last running AN/FSQ-7, the operator panel was very impressive. 

Some of the early 370 systems that still had blinkenlights only had one 
or two rows and rotary switchs selected what you where viewing. 
Attached to the switch there was a cylinder behind the panel that showed 
a legend of what the lights meant for the selected location. The also 
had hex dials on the panel for data input. 

Paul. 

Re: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from)

[Norman Jaffe]

It is also the basis for iOS - you know, the system that runs on iPhones. 
I'd say that would be considered a significant impact - over 1.5 million 
applications. 
- Original Message -

From: "Paul Koning"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 7:58:43 AM 
Subject: Re: smalltalk and lisp (was: strangest systems I've sent email from) 


> On Apr 27, 2016, at 11:28 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr.  
> wrote: 
> ... 
> Objective-C was the only other C derivative to have a significant 
> impact. 

Did it really? It is used in the Mac, much as Bliss was in VMS, but apart from 
that, would anyone use it? 

paul 

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Norman Jaffe]

I've got a set of floppy images of Smalltalk that worked fine on early 
Macintosh machines - I'm not sure what the oldest one would've been, but I only 
had Macintosh 512 and Macintosh Plus systems at the time; I seem to recall that 
it was available as a developer floppy. It had an Apple label. 
(Note that this is from memory - the floppies are at my home, which is miles 
from my work...) 
- Original Message -

From: "Fred Cisin"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 1:25:12 PM 
Subject: Re: strangest systems I've sent email from 

On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote: 
> Smalltalk has other issues. In the 80s, there were not many machines 
> capable of running Smalltalk (I'm not aware of any implementation on micros, 
> serious or not) 

Apple Lisa. Don't know whether it ever went to market. 

Re: Old PC Boards and some Books to go

[Norman Jaffe]

Hi: 

I'm interested in the Intel 3000 and bit-slice books - would you be able to / 
willing to ship to Canada? 
- Original Message -

From: "Pontus Pihlgren"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts"  
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 1:40:11 PM 
Subject: Re: Old PC Boards and some Books to go 

Hi 

Some gems in there. Will you ship? 

How much do you want for the DECsystem-10 books? 

/P 

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:08:28PM -0400, Dave Mitton wrote: 
> Guys, 
> still trying to clean out my basement... recently I've gathered a bunch 
> of PC cards from over the years. 
> and some of my old text and data books. Still working on listing some more 
> and some various kits of PC software. 
> I'm not assuming this is worth much, just rather pass it on, than dispose. 
> 
> I've put a list (so far) of the stuff on this web page. I have photos of 
> the PC cards if interested. 
> http://dave.mitton.com/computer_clearance.html 
> 
> Dave Mitton, 
> North Andover, MA 
> 
> 
> --- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. 
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus 
> 

Re: USPS: Shipping

[Norman Jaffe]

I was once given a tour of a USPS facility and told to not make eye contact 
with the workers, as this was considered a threatening move by management. 
I don't know if it's gotten any better, but it was definitely a weird 
experience. 
- Original Message -

From: "Stefan Skoglund (lokal användare)"  
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org 
Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2016 3:47:48 AM 
Subject: Re: USPS: Shipping 

mån 2016-02-01 klockan 22:22 -0600 skrev Tothwolf: 
> On Mon, 1 Feb 2016, Guy Sotomayor wrote: 
> > On Feb 1, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Ken Seefried  wrote: 
> >> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Tothwolf wrote: 
> >>> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote: 
> >>> 
>  Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in 
>  very strong box. I've actually had EPROMs show up cracked in half 
> >>> 
> >>> Seconded. The machines the USPS uses for automated sorting of mail are 
> >>> not gentle on parcels. 
> >> 
> >> I'd rather strongly suggest you not us the USPS period. In the last 6 
> >> months or so they've flat out lost 4 items either destined to or 
> >> shipped by me, and one item apparently (according to the tracking web 
> >> site) sat in a sorting facility in Utah for nearly a month before 
> >> magically showing up. Glad it wasn't perishable. 
> > 
> > I’ve had failures with *all* of the major shippers. 
> > 
> > UPS tracking is a *joke*. It tells you not where the package is but 
> > where it’s supposed to be. I was tracking an IBM 3278 terminal and it 
> > wasn’t until the tracking said it was “on the truck for delivery” that 
> > they realized there was a problem. There was not one “physical” scan of 
> > the package and they had no idea where it was. 
> 
> I recently bought a vacuum tube tester and whatever USPS carrier happened 
> to be on duty scanned it as delivered but it was nowhere to be found. 
> After calling the USPS and getting the branch manager involved, it 
> magically appeared the next day. Someone at the USPS had also marked out 
> the tracking barcode on the label. 

HOW BAD is the relationship between the guys/gals on the floor at USPS 
and management/congress ? 
If people is sabotaging like this. 

Re: USPS: Shipping

[Norman Jaffe]

I've had even more fun with UPS - there was a big hole punched in the side of a 
tape library that was shipped to me, completely destroying the library. 
The hole matched the fork on a forklift truck. 
UPS insisted that the hole existed before they shipped it - until it was 
pointed out that the hole was right through their shipping documents. 
- Original Message -

From: "Guy Sotomayor"  
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2016 10:43:40 AM 
Subject: Re: USPS: Shipping 


> On Feb 1, 2016, at 10:30 AM, Ken Seefried  wrote: 
> 
> On Sun, 31 Jan 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote: 
>>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Henk Gooijen  
>>> wrote: 
>>> 
>>> Spend the extra few dollars (or what your currency is) and pack it in a 
>>> very strong box. I've actually had EPROMs show up cracked in half 
>> 
>> Seconded. The machines the USPS uses for automated sorting of mail are not 
>> gentle on parcels. 
>> 
> 
> I'd rather strongly suggest you not us the USPS period. In the last 6 
> months or so they've flat out lost 4 items either destined to or 
> shipped by me, and one item apparently (according to the tracking web 
> site) sat in a sorting facility in Utah for nearly a month before 
> magically showing up. Glad it wasn't perishable. 
> 

I’ve had failures with *all* of the major shippers. 

UPS tracking is a *joke*. It tells you not where the package is but where 
it’s supposed to be. I was tracking an IBM 3278 terminal and it wasn’t 
until the tracking said it was “on the truck for delivery” that they realized 
there was a problem. There was not one “physical” scan of the package 
and they had no idea where it was. 

TTFN - Guy