[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
> Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application > on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video > card instead of a terminal? Primarily cost I'm led to believe. There were also games that took advantage of primitive graphics characters. Thanks, Jonathan
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
I had a video board and keyboard on my Gimix SS-50 system. Why? 1. The video board/monitor is much faster than a terminal even at 115,200 baud. 2. A Video board, keyboard and monitor was way cheaper back then than a terminal (Yes there was the SWTPc CT64 and the Lear Siegler ADM-3A kits, but fully loaded they weren't all that cheap). 3. If the video board supports any kind of graphics that is another reason. The Gimix video board supported graphics with a RAM character generator. On 8/30/2023 2:38 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: Hi all, I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal? Thanks for the bandwidth. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 1:52 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: > I had a video board and keyboard on my Gimix SS-50 system. > > Why? > > 1. The video board/monitor is much faster than a terminal even at > 115,200 baud. > 115,200 in the S100 era was also rare. It was usually 9600 or 19200 at the top end. > 2. A Video board, keyboard and monitor was way cheaper back then than a > terminal (Yes there was the SWTPc CT64 and the Lear Siegler ADM-3A kits, > but fully loaded they weren't all that cheap). > 3. If the video board supports any kind of graphics that is another > reason. The Gimix video board supported graphics with a RAM character > generator. > 4. It's a lot less code to directly splat characters into memory than to generate all the escape sequences you need to 'draw' anything interesting (be it a game, a graph or just an emacs buffer). I got into this just after the S100 era, and I opted for the Rainbow because it was both a terminal I could connect to other systems, and a system with an internal graphics card. The terminal had completed the move inside the computer after starting out life as a computer added onto the terminal. DECs terminals followed this path. Many of the S100 systems that had graphics cards were also chasing after newish workstations that were just starting to be built. Warner > On 8/30/2023 2:38 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and > a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am > trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs > just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card > supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a > terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a > specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could > understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a > standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just > provides composite. > > > > Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an > application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to > buy a video card instead of a terminal? > > > > Thanks for the bandwidth. > > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos > > > >
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
/115,200 in the S100 era was also rare. It was usually 9600 or 19200 at the top end/ That is true. I remember setting my serial board for external baud rate and the SWTPC CT-82 terminal to generate the baud rate and I think it was like 38,400 maximum. My VT-220 maxes out at 9600 and my VT-330+ maxes out at 19,200. Remember the teletypes ran at 110 baud or slower. The decwrite and GE Terminet were speed demons at 300 and 1200 baud. On 8/30/2023 3:02 PM, Warner Losh wrote: On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 1:52 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: I had a video board and keyboard on my Gimix SS-50 system. Why? 1. The video board/monitor is much faster than a terminal even at 115,200 baud. 115,200 in the S100 era was also rare. It was usually 9600 or 19200 at the top end. 2. A Video board, keyboard and monitor was way cheaper back then than a terminal (Yes there was the SWTPc CT64 and the Lear Siegler ADM-3A kits, but fully loaded they weren't all that cheap). 3. If the video board supports any kind of graphics that is another reason. The Gimix video board supported graphics with a RAM character generator. 4. It's a lot less code to directly splat characters into memory than to generate all the escape sequences you need to 'draw' anything interesting (be it a game, a graph or just an emacs buffer). I got into this just after the S100 era, and I opted for the Rainbow because it was both a terminal I could connect to other systems, and a system with an internal graphics card. The terminal had completed the move inside the computer after starting out life as a computer added onto the terminal. DECs terminals followed this path. Many of the S100 systems that had graphics cards were also chasing after newish workstations that were just starting to be built. Warner On 8/30/2023 2:38 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. > > Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal? > > Thanks for the bandwidth. > > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos >
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here (on page 16): http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons. -Original Message- From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: W2HX Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Hi all, I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal? Thanks for the bandwidth. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Now that I'm thinking about it, there were also instructions for hacking the composite signal straight into the TV, bypassing the tuner... but Mom and Dad probably wouldn't go for that (mine didn't). -Original Message- From: William Sudbrink via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 4:54 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: 'W2HX' ; William Sudbrink Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here (on page 16): http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons. -Original Message- From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: W2HX Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Hi all, I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal? Thanks for the bandwidth. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here (on page 16): http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons. In the circles that I was in, the Sup-R-ModII seemed to be the most common. Oddly, it was on UHF channel 34, although there were plenty of channel 3/4 ones. Tuning the TV to channel 34 wasn't all that hard, because it was right below a third tier channel and a 24/7 [speed-freak?] preacher dude, that provided easy landmarks in the spectrum. Since the RF modulator needed a power supply, and it was easy to bring power out from the computer, whereas the 'rents wouldn't let you modify the family Philco, amongst my associates, it tended to be located at the computer. Both the AppleII, and the IBM CGA (even including most of its clones) had a 4 pin Berg (one pin usually missing as a key) to power and run the RF modulator. Terminals were cool if you had one, but cost more. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
When s-100 machines came out, they were standalone. The serial port was for sending serial data not for a terminal. You would have to write some software to use it with a terminal. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 30, 2023, at 14:45, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: >> There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here >> (on page 16): >> http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf >> Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit >> board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You >> will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and >> user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler >> and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his >> "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video >> board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any >> serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video >> board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons. > > In the circles that I was in, the Sup-R-ModII seemed to be the most common. > Oddly, it was on UHF channel 34, although there were plenty of channel 3/4 > ones. Tuning the TV to channel 34 wasn't all that hard, because it was right > below a third tier channel and a 24/7 [speed-freak?] preacher dude, that > provided easy landmarks in the spectrum. > > Since the RF modulator needed a power supply, and it was easy to bring power > out from the computer, whereas the 'rents wouldn't let you modify the family > Philco, amongst my associates, it tended to be located at the computer. > > Both the AppleII, and the IBM CGA (even including most of its clones) had a 4 > pin Berg (one pin usually missing as a key) to power and run the RF modulator. > > Terminals were cool if you had one, but cost more. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com >
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Wayne S wrote: When s-100 machines came out, they were standalone. The serial port was for sending serial data not for a terminal. You would have to write some software to use it with a terminal. Of course. To do anything with it, you needed some input and output. Either a good front panel, or a serial port plus software for a terminal, or a keyboard input with software, plus a video board with software. paper tape for storage, so as to not have to key in every program evey time, or a tape drive, or a disk drive. By the end of the 1970s, computers were being sold with terminal or keyboard/video hardware and software, and then disk drives and an operating system. BASIC on paper tape, ROM, or disk, . . . By the end of the 1970s, you did not need to be an electronics/comupter hobbyist to buy and use a personal computer. It became possible, without even a scope and soldering iron! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
I think you forgot the most common storage back then. Audio cassette at 300 or 1200 baud. On 8/30/2023 5:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Wayne S wrote: When s-100 machines came out, they were standalone. The serial port was for sending serial data not for a terminal. You would have to write some software to use it with a terminal. Of course. To do anything with it, you needed some input and output. Either a good front panel, or a serial port plus software for a terminal, or a keyboard input with software, plus a video board with software. paper tape for storage, so as to not have to key in every program evey time, or a tape drive, or a disk drive. By the end of the 1970s, computers were being sold with terminal or keyboard/video hardware and software, and then disk drives and an operating system. BASIC on paper tape, ROM, or disk, . . . By the end of the 1970s, you did not need to be an electronics/comupter hobbyist to buy and use a personal computer. It became possible, without even a scope and soldering iron! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
The probem with RF Modulators is that due to the National Television Standards Committee standards for American television there wasn't enough bandwidth to display 80 characters x24 lines (or 25 lines with status). Generally 64 x 16 was the maxmimum that would be readable on a standard black and white TV set. Any higher resolutions would either cause the characters to "tear" or lose horizontal or vertical sync completely. That is why monitors were used. They were not bound by the NTSC standards and were generally made for 80 x 25 or (even 132 x 25 with a smaller character set). On 8/30/2023 3:54 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here (on page 16): http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons. -Original Message- From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: W2HX Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Hi all, I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal? Thanks for the bandwidth. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
When I said "tape drive", I was actually thinking mostly of cassette On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Mike Katz wrote: I think you forgot the most common storage back then. Audio cassette at 300 or 1200 baud. On 8/30/2023 5:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Wayne S wrote: When s-100 machines came out, they were standalone. The serial port was for sending serial data not for a terminal. You would have to write some software to use it with a terminal. Of course. To do anything with it, you needed some input and output. Either a good front panel, or a serial port plus software for a terminal, or a keyboard input with software, plus a video board with software. paper tape for storage, so as to not have to key in every program evey time, or a tape drive, or a disk drive. By the end of the 1970s, computers were being sold with terminal or keyboard/video hardware and software, and then disk drives and an operating system. BASIC on paper tape, ROM, or disk, . . . By the end of the 1970s, you did not need to be an electronics/comupter hobbyist to buy and use a personal computer. It became possible, without even a scope and soldering iron! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Hence the short text lines on "home" computers.
The TRS80 used an RCA TV, converted into a monitor. (presumably bulk
purchased before the tuner was installed).
OB_irrelevant: In the TV sitcom "Married With Children" in many seasons,
on the Bundy kitchen counter was a [off white, instead of gray] TV of that
model.
When I bought my TRS80 ($400, instead of $600, by buying without the
"monitor" and cassette player), I used a CCTV composite monitor. I added
an RCA jack, to use instead of the 5-pin DIN. I upgraded the RAM and ROM,
added another key (Michael Shrayer's "Electric Pencil" needed a Control
key), added Joe Garner's add-in board for reverse video and lower case,
switched to a tri-state LED, and put Riv-Nuts in the base, so that the CPU
and Expansion Interface were bolted to a thin piece of plywood. When the
exterior paint was getting worn, I repainted it blue. Dave Sparks, the RS
repair technician, was happy to ignore any mods that he understood, so he
didn't void the warranty. When his boss objected, he said that since I
had brought it in with an intact warranty label and paint on the screws,
he assumed that I had done all of the mods through the vent slots, without
opening it ("boat in a bottle" :-)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
The probem with RF Modulators is that due to the National Television
Standards Committee standards for American television there wasn't enough
bandwidth to display 80 characters x24 lines (or 25 lines with status).
Generally 64 x 16 was the maxmimum that would be readable on a standard black
and white TV set. Any higher resolutions would either cause the characters
to "tear" or lose horizontal or vertical sync completely.
That is why monitors were used. They were not bound by the NTSC standards
and were generally made for 80 x 25 or (even 132 x 25 with a smaller
character set).
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
> > > > > In the circles that I was in, the Sup-R-ModII seemed to be the most > common. Oddly, it was on UHF channel 34, although there were plenty of > channel 3/4 ones. Tuning the TV to channel 34 wasn't all that hard, > because it was right below a third tier channel and a 24/7 [speed-freak?] > preacher dude, that provided easy landmarks in the spectrum. > Channel 33, at least all of the ones I have are channel 33. Bill
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
In the circles that I was in, the Sup-R-ModII seemed to be the most common. Oddly, it was on UHF channel 34, although there were plenty of channel 3/4 ones. Tuning the TV to channel 34 wasn't all that hard, because it was right below a third tier channel and a 24/7 [speed-freak?] preacher dude, that provided easy landmarks in the spectrum. On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: Channel 33, at least all of the ones I have are channel 33. You are right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sup%27R%27Mod#/media/File:Sup_'R'_Mod_II_Kit.jpg clearly labelled Ch. 33 Mostly. Here's a picture of one that is clearly labelled "Ch. 32-34 TV INTERFRACE UNIT" So, I might even have had one that was on ch. 34? https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/apple-ii-plus-iie-r-enterprises-sup-1848247741 3 clicks left of KICU, which was 2 clicks left of the 24/7 speed-freak preacher dude. (UHF tuners were actually usually an analog knob, without presets) I set up a few for friends, but I never used one; in college, I had done a fair amount of playing with Sony CV series and AV series reel to reel consumer video recorders, and I had a Sony 11"? monitor/TV, and some CCTV monitors. The presence of that 4 pin Berg connector was the quickest way to recognize/identify CGA video cards, disunirregardless of manufacturer. (The 12 pin (2x6, keyed) connector mid-board is the identifying element of the Compaq video) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
I remember just getting close to channel 33, not worrying what the actual channel was anyway...as long as it worked. On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 9:47 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> In the circles that I was in, the Sup-R-ModII seemed to be the most > >> common. Oddly, it was on UHF channel 34, although there were plenty of > >> channel 3/4 ones. Tuning the TV to channel 34 wasn't all that hard, > >> because it was right below a third tier channel and a 24/7 > [speed-freak?] > >> preacher dude, that provided easy landmarks in the spectrum. > > On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Channel 33, at least all of the ones I have are channel 33. > > You are right. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sup%27R%27Mod#/media/File:Sup_'R'_Mod_II_Kit.jpg > clearly labelled Ch. 33 > > Mostly. Here's a picture of one that is clearly labelled > "Ch. 32-34 TV INTERFRACE UNIT" > So, I might even have had one that was on ch. 34? > > > https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/apple-ii-plus-iie-r-enterprises-sup-1848247741 > > 3 clicks left of KICU, which was 2 clicks left of the 24/7 speed-freak > preacher dude. (UHF tuners were actually usually an analog knob, without > presets) > > I set up a few for friends, but I never used one; in college, I had done a > fair amount of playing with Sony CV series and AV series reel to reel > consumer video recorders, and I had a Sony 11"? monitor/TV, and some CCTV > monitors. > > The presence of that 4 pin Berg connector was the quickest way to > recognize/identify CGA video cards, disunirregardless of manufacturer. > (The 12 pin (2x6, keyed) connector mid-board is the identifying element of > the Compaq video) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com >
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Ok great info, everyone. Thanks for the information! 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos -Original Message- From: William Sudbrink Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 5:06 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: W2HX Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Now that I'm thinking about it, there were also instructions for hacking the composite signal straight into the TV, bypassing the tuner... but Mom and Dad probably wouldn't go for that (mine didn't). -Original Message- From: William Sudbrink via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 4:54 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: 'W2HX' ; William Sudbrink Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here (on page 16): http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons. -Original Message- From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: W2HX Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Hi all, I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal? Thanks for the bandwidth. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Wed, 30 Aug 2023, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Hence the short text lines on "home" computers.
The TRS80 used an RCA TV, converted into a monitor. (presumably bulk
purchased before the tuner was installed).
OB_irrelevant: In the TV sitcom "Married With Children" in many seasons, on
the Bundy kitchen counter was a [off white, instead of gray] TV of that
model.
When I bought my TRS80 ($400, instead of $600, by buying without the
"monitor" and cassette player), I used a CCTV composite monitor. I added an
RCA jack, to use instead of the 5-pin DIN. I upgraded the RAM and ROM, added
another key (Michael Shrayer's "Electric Pencil" needed a Control key), added
Joe Garner's add-in board for reverse video and lower case, switched to a
tri-state LED, and put Riv-Nuts in the base, so that the CPU and Expansion
Interface were bolted to a thin piece of plywood. When the exterior paint
was getting worn, I repainted it blue. Dave Sparks, the RS repair
technician, was happy to ignore any mods that he understood, so he didn't
void the warranty. When his boss objected, he said that since I had brought
it in with an intact warranty label and paint on the screws, he assumed that
I had done all of the mods through the vent slots, without opening it ("boat
in a bottle" :-)
Fun fact - the "Warranty Void if Removed" tags were and are illegal. The
warranty can only be voided if the mfgr can prove the thing you did
resulted in the problem you're claiming warranty on. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
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Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
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[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On 8/30/23 17:14, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: When s-100 machines came out, they were standalone. The serial port was for sending serial data not for a terminal. You would have to write some software to use it with a terminal. Well, maybe, I did have a home made S-100 system in 1976 with limited I/O. But, pretty quickly I got a floppy drive and controller and started running CP/M with some sort of video terminal. Jon
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Hence the short text lines on "home" computers.
. . .
. . . Dave Sparks, the RS
repair technician, was happy to ignore any mods that he understood, so he
didn't void the warranty. When his boss objected, he said that since I had
brought it in with an intact warranty label and paint on the screws, he
assumed that I had done all of the mods through the vent slots, without
opening it ("boat in a bottle" :-)
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, geneb via cctalk wrote:
Fun fact - the "Warranty Void if Removed" tags were and are illegal. The
warranty can only be voided if the mfgr can prove the thing you did resulted
in the problem you're claiming warranty on. :)
eventually codified in the Magnuson-Moss warranty Act, enacted in 1975,
just a few years before RS started pasting those stickers on..
But, they didn't say that modifications voided the warranty, . . .
the warranty was only voided if the sticker was damaged.
So, modifications were OK if you did them without damaging the sticker
and/or the painted over screwheads.
http://www.glyptal.com/products/G7526Ftech.pdf
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic
diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the
schematic on it if a transistor goes bad
CZ
On 8/31/2023 2:48 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Hence the short text lines on "home" computers.
. . . . . . Dave Sparks, the RS repair technician, was happy to
ignore any mods that he understood, so he didn't void the warranty.
When his boss objected, he said that since I had brought it in with
an intact warranty label and paint on the screws, he assumed that I
had done all of the mods through the vent slots, without opening it
("boat in a bottle" :-)
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, geneb via cctalk wrote:
Fun fact - the "Warranty Void if Removed" tags were and are illegal.
The warranty can only be voided if the mfgr can prove the thing you
did resulted in the problem you're claiming warranty on. :)
eventually codified in the Magnuson-Moss warranty Act, enacted in
1975, just a few years before RS started pasting those stickers on..
But, they didn't say that modifications voided the warranty, . . .
the warranty was only voided if the sticker was damaged. So,
modifications were OK if you did them without damaging the sticker
and/or the painted over screwheads.
http://www.glyptal.com/products/G7526Ftech.pdf
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
> On 31 Aug 2023, at 07:07, William Sudbrink via cctalk > wrote: > > Now that I'm thinking about it, there were also instructions for hacking the > composite signal straight into the TV, bypassing the tuner... but Mom and > Dad probably wouldn't go for that (mine didn't). I paid a local electronics store to add an RCA composite input to our old black & white TV, bypassing the tuner. It think it cost $50 at the time (early 80s) d > -Original Message- > From: William Sudbrink via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 4:54 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Cc: 'W2HX' ; William Sudbrink > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors > > There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here > (on page 16): > > http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf > > Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit > board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You > will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and > user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler > and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his > "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video > board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any > serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video > board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons. > > > > -Original Message- > From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: W2HX > Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors > > Hi all, > > I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a > keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am > trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs > just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported > graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for > the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. > But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there > was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the > builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. > > Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application > on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video > card instead of a terminal? > > Thanks for the bandwidth. > > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Was the picture significantly better then with the modulator ? Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 31, 2023, at 14:14, David Arnold via cctalk > wrote: > > >> On 31 Aug 2023, at 07:07, William Sudbrink via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> Now that I'm thinking about it, there were also instructions for hacking the >> composite signal straight into the TV, bypassing the tuner... but Mom and >> Dad probably wouldn't go for that (mine didn't). > > I paid a local electronics store to add an RCA composite input to our old > black & white TV, bypassing the tuner. It think it cost $50 at the time > (early 80s) > > > > d > >> -Original Message- >> From: William Sudbrink via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 4:54 PM >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >> >> Cc: 'W2HX' ; William Sudbrink >> Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors >> >> There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here >> (on page 16): >> >> http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf >> >> Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit >> board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You >> will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and >> user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler >> and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his >> "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video >> board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any >> serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video >> board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons. >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Cc: W2HX >> Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors >> >> Hi all, >> >> I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a >> keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am >> trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs >> just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported >> graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for >> the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. >> But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there >> was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the >> builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. >> >> Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application >> on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video >> card instead of a terminal? >> >> Thanks for the bandwidth. >> >> 73 Eugene W2HX >> Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >> >> >> -- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> www.avast.com >
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On 8/30/23 6:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Hence the short text lines on "home" computers. The TRS80 used an RCA TV, converted into a monitor. (presumably bulk purchased before the tuner was installed). OB_irrelevant: In the TV sitcom "Married With Children" in many seasons, on the Bundy kitchen counter was a [off white, instead of gray] TV of that model. I have one of these RCA TVs and will be displaying it along with the TRS-80 monitor to compare at Tandy Assembly this year. -- Eric Dittman
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: Was the picture significantly better then with the modulator ? It always was for me. With composite input, I could read 80 characters per line, not with RF, For example, on the RS Coco, it wasn't very hard to bring out composite video for a sharper picture. With RF, the signal was converted from video to RF, and then the TV tuner converted back to video. Certainly, some were worse than others, . . . The tuners in VCRs were almost always much better than those in TVs, for watching over the air broadcasts, a VCR tuner with composite video to a monitor was better than a TV. From 1975 until 2010, I didn't have a TV with a tuner. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On 8/31/23 14:06, David Arnold via cctalk wrote: > >> On 31 Aug 2023, at 07:07, William Sudbrink via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> Now that I'm thinking about it, there were also instructions for hacking the >> composite signal straight into the TV, bypassing the tuner... but Mom and >> Dad probably wouldn't go for that (mine didn't). > > I paid a local electronics store to add an RCA composite input to our old > black & white TV, bypassing the tuner. It think it cost $50 at the time > (early 80s) > > The first monitor I owned, which was connected to a TV Typewriter, which was connected to my Altair 8800, was an old Zenith "hot chassis" portable tube TV. Tapped into the video just downstream from the video IF. The set didn't have a polarized AC plug (I don't trust those things anyway), so you had to be a bit careful when applying power (the TVT and Altair used 3-prong grounded AC plugs). It worked well enough to provide a clear 64x16 character display. I believe that Sony used some of their portable transistorized TV sets as monitors, equipping them with SO239 UHF connectors. I recall having one of those as well. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
OMG Flavor Radio, that brings back memories of working at Radio Shack in
1977 fresh out of high school.
Thanks for the trip down memory lane and making me feel old again (or is
that still)👴.
On 8/31/2023 3:52 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic
diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the
schematic on it if a transistor goes bad
CZ
On 8/31/2023 2:48 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Hence the short text lines on "home" computers.
. . . . . . Dave Sparks, the RS repair technician, was happy to
ignore any mods that he understood, so he didn't void the
warranty. When his boss objected, he said that since I had brought
it in with an intact warranty label and paint on the screws, he
assumed that I had done all of the mods through the vent slots,
without opening it ("boat in a bottle" :-)
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, geneb via cctalk wrote:
Fun fact - the "Warranty Void if Removed" tags were and are
illegal. The warranty can only be voided if the mfgr can prove the
thing you did resulted in the problem you're claiming warranty on. :)
eventually codified in the Magnuson-Moss warranty Act, enacted in
1975, just a few years before RS started pasting those stickers on..
But, they didn't say that modifications voided the warranty, . . .
the warranty was only voided if the sticker was damaged. So,
modifications were OK if you did them without damaging the sticker
and/or the painted over screwheads.
http://www.glyptal.com/products/G7526Ftech.pdf
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I believe that Sony used some of their portable transistorized TV sets as monitors, equipping them with SO239 UHF connectors. I recall having one of those as well. Sony's CV and AV series reel to reel portable video recorders used one of those. It was black, and had Rf input, UHF connector, a 14? pin rectangular Honda plug, and a slide switch for TV/monitor. In 1971, I once "repaired" one of the college's ones by sliding that switch out of the middle position :-) I got one of those at a flea market, and that was what I had for my TRS80. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Composite will 99.99% of the time be better than RF modulated due to the bandwidth of NTSC (American) Televisions. The NTSC television standard was not what I would exactly call high tech or high resolution. It was 525 scan lines interlaced at 30Hz meaning that there was only 262.5 lines every 60th of a second. If you were very very lucky and had a very good television you might get 640 x 480 with alot of flicker. If you want color the resolution went way down due to the way that the NTSC standard handled colors to be backwards compatible with black and white televisions. The roots of this standard go all the way back to the 1930's and became a standard in 1940. By passing the tuner meant bypassing all of the filters and demodulation that needed to happen. Many video games of the 70's and early 80's came with 300 Ohm antenna leads and an RCA plug with a switch for modulated or unmodulated signals. I remember buying small composite monitors with a single RCA jack on the back for < $100 as far back as like 1982. Usually if the monitor had speakers it was based on a TV without the tuner, if it didn't have speakers it was a purpose build monitor. As the cost of video production came down in the 70's and 80's the cost of composite monitors dropped considerably and also started appearing on the used market. I remember buying a black and white square box video monitor for like $50 as the Dayton hamfest in the early 80's. On 8/31/2023 5:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I believe that Sony used some of their portable transistorized TV sets as monitors, equipping them with SO239 UHF connectors. I recall having one of those as well. Sony's CV and AV series reel to reel portable video recorders used one of those. It was black, and had Rf input, UHF connector, a 14? pin rectangular Honda plug, and a slide switch for TV/monitor. In 1971, I once "repaired" one of the college's ones by sliding that switch out of the middle position :-) I got one of those at a flea market, and that was what I had for my TRS80. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Mike Katz wrote: The roots of this standard go all the way back to the 1930's and became a standard in 1940. By passing the tuner meant bypassing all of the filters and demodulation that needed to happen. Many video games of the 70's and early 80's came with 300 Ohm antenna leads and an RCA plug with a switch for modulated or unmodulated signals. That little switchbox was so that the RF input of the TV could be switched between the [normal] antenna, and the RF modulator of the Computer/vide game. With almost all of them, the output was to the TV, and the inputs were antenna VS computer/video game Without that switch, if they were just hooked in parallel, then the output of the computer/video game could leak/boadcast out of the antenna.
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
You are correct for some but I do recall some with a composite output in that little switch box as well. Maybe I'm misremembering from 50 years ago. On 8/31/2023 6:02 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Mike Katz wrote: The roots of this standard go all the way back to the 1930's and became a standard in 1940. By passing the tuner meant bypassing all of the filters and demodulation that needed to happen. Many video games of the 70's and early 80's came with 300 Ohm antenna leads and an RCA plug with a switch for modulated or unmodulated signals. That little switchbox was so that the RF input of the TV could be switched between the [normal] antenna, and the RF modulator of the Computer/vide game. With almost all of them, the output was to the TV, and the inputs were antenna VS computer/video game Without that switch, if they were just hooked in parallel, then the output of the computer/video game could leak/boadcast out of the antenna.
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
They were available with a variety of connectors. Some of those switchboxes had a short flat wire with spade lugs as output for connecting to the TV, and for input had screw terminal antenna input, and RCA for the RF input from the RF modulator. the Wikipedia article for the Sup'R'Mod II has a picture of one such. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sup%27R%27Mod That could easily be mistaken for antenna VS composite switching. But, there were also some stand-alone RF modulators that were like what you are describing. That would presumably have a wall-wart or similar power supply? OB_irrelevant_anecdote: I had a Plantronics CGA double board that supported 640x400 video, and maybe some other text modes. It had a DE9 and 4 pin Berg, but no RCA jack! The Sup'R'Mod had 4 pin Berg and RCA jack inputs, plus RCA RF output. Not having an extra DE9 monitor handy, and not having time to conveniently make a cable for the Plantronics board, I "temporarily" connected the 4 pin Berg of a Sup'R'Mod to the Plantronics board, and connected a composite monitor to the RCA "input" of the Sup'R'Mod, but nothing to the Sup'R'Mod output to use the Sup'R'Mod as a cable adapter. "temporarily" was less than 10 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sup%27R%27Mod Q: is "Berg" the right/best name for that 4 pin connector? male was 4 pins in a row with one missing; female was an appropriate molex connector -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Mike Katz wrote: You are correct for some but I do recall some with a composite output in that little switch box as well. Maybe I'm misremembering from 50 years ago. On 8/31/2023 6:02 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Mike Katz wrote: The roots of this standard go all the way back to the 1930's and became a standard in 1940. By passing the tuner meant bypassing all of the filters and demodulation that needed to happen. Many video games of the 70's and early 80's came with 300 Ohm antenna leads and an RCA plug with a switch for modulated or unmodulated signals. That little switchbox was so that the RF input of the TV could be switched between the [normal] antenna, and the RF modulator of the Computer/vide game. With almost all of them, the output was to the TV, and the inputs were antenna VS computer/video game Without that switch, if they were just hooked in parallel, then the output of the computer/video game could leak/boadcast out of the antenna.
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
One important reason for UHF for the Sup'R'Mod, instead of channel 3/4:
Some TVs at the time had a built-in VHF antenna, and no external
connection for VHF! But, the UHF was a small loop or "bowtie" that
connected to a pair of screw terminals on the back of the set.
For example, the 17"? 19"? portable Philco that my brother and I bought
(and, our father chipped in the EXTRA COST for the model with UHF)
I remember watching the cuban missile crisis on that set. And, seeing
every light on Massachusetts Avenue ("embassy row") on all night.
By modulating to UHF (Channel 33), the Sup'R'Mod could connect to the UHF
antenna terminals on TVs where there was no connector for external input
of VHF.
Later TVs had external antenna VHF input, either screw terminals, or
later, an F connector.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On 8/31/23 16:39, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > They were available with a variety of connectors. > Some of those switchboxes had a short flat wire with spade lugs as > output for connecting to the TV, and for input had screw terminal > antenna input, and RCA for the RF input from the RF modulator. > the Wikipedia article for the Sup'R'Mod II has a picture of one such. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sup%27R%27Mod > My first experience with cable TV, provided free, in an apartment that I was renting was two coax cables coming from a wall plate, connected to a switchbox. No set-top box in those days--and no commercials. When the management decided that free cable was too generous, you could still have it if you paid an extra fee with your rent. They were sending service guys to disconnect those who didn't take them up on the offer. I suspected that they were simply removing the coax cables from the splitter in the wall cavity, so I removed them myself and stashed them away. The service people showed up and looked around the apartment and said "Oh, I guess we've been here already." After they left, I hooked the coax back up... Confessions of an ill-spent youth. --Chuck --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 7:49 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > Fun fact - the "Warranty Void if Removed" tags were and are illegal. The > > warranty can only be voided if the mfgr can prove the thing you did resulted > > in the problem you're claiming warranty on. :) > > eventually codified in the Magnuson-Moss warranty Act, enacted in 1975, > just a few years before RS started pasting those stickers on.. > > But, they didn't say that modifications voided the warranty, . . . > the warranty was only voided if the sticker was damaged. I would love to know how removing an external sticker over a screwhead (and doing nothing else) could cause an IC inside the machine to fail. As the latter is the sort of thing you claim warranty on, removing the sticker have no bearing on the validity of said warranty. I did manage to get one of those stickers off in one piece. I stored it on the backing paper of some rub-down letter transfers (remember those?) and never put it back after I completed the modifications/repairs. My idea was I'd put it on a unit I'd been inside if I did want to claim on th warranty. Never did that, I might still have it somewhere. -tony
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 9:53 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic > diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the > schematic on it if a transistor goes bad And they would sell spare parts and service manuals for just about everything they sold. Their pocket computers were of course essentially re-badged Sharp and Casio machines. Getting the service manuals from the original companies was moderately harder than getting defence secrets. Getting the manuals from Tandy/Radio Shack was simply a matter of ordering them at the local shop. -tony
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
I think you might be confusing a law argument with a logic argument. 🤓 The 2 are not related. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 31, 2023, at 21:00, Tony Duell via cctalk > wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 9:53 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic >> diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the >> schematic on it if a transistor goes bad > > And they would sell spare parts and service manuals for just about > everything they sold. > > Their pocket computers were of course essentially re-badged Sharp and > Casio machines. Getting the service manuals from the original > companies was moderately harder than getting defence secrets. Getting > the manuals from Tandy/Radio Shack was simply a matter of ordering > them at the local shop. > > -tony
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Thu, 31 Aug 2023, Mike Katz wrote: Composite will 99.99% of the time be better than RF modulated due to the bandwidth of NTSC (American) Televisions. The NTSC television standard was not what I would exactly call high tech or high resolution. It was 525 scan lines interlaced at 30Hz meaning that there was only 262.5 lines every 60th That is not NTSC. NTSC only defines how to encode colors in a composite signal. It does not define any resolution or so. What you mean is the CCIR norm, for the US it is norm M with the color carrier at about 3.58 MHz, 525 lines with a bandwidth of about 4 MHz (and *this* is the limiting factor for the horizontal resolution). might get 640 x 480 with alot of flicker. If you want color the resolution went way down due to the way that the NTSC standard handled colors to be backwards compatible with black and white televisions. No, not at all. The resolution of the luminance signal was absolutely the same. Christian
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Back in the day, I could not afford a terminal. All I could afford was a Polymorphic video card and a real cheap keyboard to connect to my IMSAI 8080 (with a memory card borrowed from a friend that eventually I bought from him). This was in the 1970's, and I was still in the Navy and my pay was minimal at best. Bob On 8/30/2023 4:15 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: /115,200 in the S100 era was also rare. It was usually 9600 or 19200 at the top end/ That is true. I remember setting my serial board for external baud rate and the SWTPC CT-82 terminal to generate the baud rate and I think it was like 38,400 maximum. My VT-220 maxes out at 9600 and my VT-330+ maxes out at 19,200. Remember the teletypes ran at 110 baud or slower. The decwrite and GE Terminet were speed demons at 300 and 1200 baud. On 8/30/2023 3:02 PM, Warner Losh wrote: On Wed, Aug 30, 2023 at 1:52 PM Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: I had a video board and keyboard on my Gimix SS-50 system. Why? 1. The video board/monitor is much faster than a terminal even at 115,200 baud. 115,200 in the S100 era was also rare. It was usually 9600 or 19200 at the top end. 2. A Video board, keyboard and monitor was way cheaper back then than a terminal (Yes there was the SWTPc CT64 and the Lear Siegler ADM-3A kits, but fully loaded they weren't all that cheap). 3. If the video board supports any kind of graphics that is another reason. The Gimix video board supported graphics with a RAM character generator. 4. It's a lot less code to directly splat characters into memory than to generate all the escape sequences you need to 'draw' anything interesting (be it a game, a graph or just an emacs buffer). I got into this just after the S100 era, and I opted for the Rainbow because it was both a terminal I could connect to other systems, and a system with an internal graphics card. The terminal had completed the move inside the computer after starting out life as a computer added onto the terminal. DECs terminals followed this path. Many of the S100 systems that had graphics cards were also chasing after newish workstations that were just starting to be built. Warner On 8/30/2023 2:38 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. > > Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal? > > Thanks for the bandwidth. > > 73 Eugene W2HX > Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos > -- Bob Grabau http://www.astrohbg.org http://www.cherrysprings.org Our Star Party for 2024: June 6-9, 2024 at Cherry Springs State Park, PA
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 1:53 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic > diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the > schematic on it if a transistor goes bad > > CZ > Of course, because they want to encourage you to open it and thereby void the warranty. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
I have been on hold with customer service now for almost 19 months. On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 10:26 AM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 1:53 PM Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic > > diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the > > schematic on it if a transistor goes bad > > > > CZ > > > > Of course, because they want to encourage you to open it and thereby void > the warranty. > > Sellam >
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
I do understand the warranty sticker. Say we have the average computer buyer. He has a screw driver and mostly knows how to use it. He also went to Radio Shack ( long gone 🙁 ) and bought a cheap soldering iron. He is now fully equipped to repair what ever is wrong with his box. ( obviously not at Tony's level of competence ) He takes the cover off and has no idea what he is looking at or what he is looking for. ( I think we have all been there at one time ) He sees something with a screw driver slot. He has a screw driver. Perhaps all it needs is a minor adjustment. He turns the screw one way, and nothing changes. He turns it the other way and, pop, some smoke comes out of the other side of the chassis. Oh well, it is under warranty so he goes to sends it in for warranty repair but, dang!, he broke that warranty seal. If we want to have it repaired under warranty, we don't need to know what failed ( just curious ). If we expect to fix it ourselves, we bought it. There is value in learning how to fix it ourselves but the price is the warranty sticker. I except that and will open it up anyway. I just can't stop myself. I need to know what failed and often can fix it myself. Dwight From: Wayne S via cctalk Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2023 9:45 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Wayne S Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors I think you might be confusing a law argument with a logic argument. 🤓 The 2 are not related. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 31, 2023, at 21:00, Tony Duell via cctalk > wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 9:53 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Which is weird, since Radio Shack was renowned for putting schematic >> diagrams on so many of their products. My Flavoradio still has the >> schematic on it if a transistor goes bad > > And they would sell spare parts and service manuals for just about > everything they sold. > > Their pocket computers were of course essentially re-badged Sharp and > Casio machines. Getting the service manuals from the original > companies was moderately harder than getting defence secrets. Getting > the manuals from Tandy/Radio Shack was simply a matter of ordering > them at the local shop. > > -tony
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 4:31 PM dwight via cctalk wrote:
>
> I do understand the warranty sticker. Say we have the average computer buyer.
> He has a screw driver and mostly knows how to use it. He also went to Radio
> Shack ( long gone 🙁 ) and bought a cheap soldering iron. He is now fully
> equipped to repair what ever is wrong with his box. ( obviously not at Tony's
> level of competence ) He takes the cover off and has no idea what he is
> looking at or what he is looking for. ( I think we have all been there at one
> time ) He sees something with a screw driver slot. He has a screw driver.
> Perhaps all it needs is a minor adjustment. He turns the screw one way, and
> nothing changes. He turns it the other way and, pop, some smoke comes out of
> the other side of the chassis.
You clearly know the TRS-80 Model 1 (or are a good guesser).
There are 4 presets ('things wth a screwdriver slot) on the Model 1
logic board. Two of them are associated with delays on the horizontal
and vertical sync signals. Adusting those can cure a
video-going-off-screen issue.
The other 2? They set the output voltage of the +12V and +5V
regulators. There is no overvoltage protection on the former, turn
that too hgh and you may wipe out all the DRAMs. The latter has a fat
zener across the output, but I am not sure I trust it. And if you turn
the +5V line up you could be looking to replace a lot of ICs...
-tony
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard. I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a transformer power supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transformer for the main supply. I went to several secondhand stores and found one that would work. The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they only made sewing machines ). Dwight From: W2HX via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 2:08 PM To: William Sudbrink ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: W2HX Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Ok great info, everyone. Thanks for the information! 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos -Original Message- From: William Sudbrink Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 5:06 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: W2HX Subject: RE: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Now that I'm thinking about it, there were also instructions for hacking the composite signal straight into the TV, bypassing the tuner... but Mom and Dad probably wouldn't go for that (mine didn't). -Original Message- From: William Sudbrink via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 4:54 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: 'W2HX' ; William Sudbrink Subject: [cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors There were RF modulators. See the November 1976 review of the Poly-88 here (on page 16): http://cini.classiccmp.org/pdf/DrDobbs/DrDobbs-1976-11-12-v1n10.pdf Note the reference to the "Pixie Verter". It is a little cheap circuit board that takes the composite signal and modulates it onto channel 3. You will find references to the Pixie-Verter in a number of publications and user manuals for early video boards. The Matrox and the Cromemco Dazzler and the Ohio Scientific documentation all reference it. David Ahl in his "Saga Of A System" magazine article references it. With that, a TV, video board, RF modulator and a parallel keyboard were much cheaper than any serial terminal back then. The RF modulator was separate from the video board (usually hung on the back of the TV) for noise reasons. -Original Message- From: W2HX via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 3:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: W2HX Subject: [cctalk] Silly question about S-100 and video monitors Hi all, I recently acquired an S-100 computer, and it came with a video card and a keyboard (3rd party products, not originally equipped with these). I am trying to figure out the benefits of having a video card and keyboard vs just using a serial port and terminal. Certainly if the video card supported graphics, that would be a reason to go that route over a terminal. As for the keyboard, ok-maybe you need specific keys for a specific application. But I don't understand the video monitor. I could understand maybe if there was an RF modulator so that you could use a standard TV. That would save the builder some money. But this computer just provides composite. Other than graphics (and maybe some special function keys for an application on a keyboard), why would an S-100 builder in those days opt to buy a video card instead of a terminal? Thanks for the bandwidth. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx/videos -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com<http://www.avast.com> -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com<http://www.avast.com>
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 4:51 PM dwight via cctalk wrote: > > My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard. > I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a > transformer power supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a > transformer for the main supply. I went to several secondhand stores and > found one that would work. The original TRS-80 model 1 monitor was based on a live-chassis (hot chassis?) RCA TV set. The USA version had an optoisolator circuit on the video input, the LED driver circuit was powered from the +5V line in the computer (hence the +5V on one pin of the video DIN socket). As the TV was designed for 115V mains only, the European version has a step-down transformer on the AC input. They used an isolating transformer, meaning there was no need to isolate the video input in the European models. Philips made a viewdata termal set where the colour monitor was a modified KT3 television. The power supply in that starts by bridge rectifying the mains input, meaning the chassis is dangerously live no matter which way round the mains is connected. The solution to that was a 240V 300mA (or so) secondary winding on the mains transformer in the the viewdate terminal unit. This provided an isolated AC supply to the monitor, so the chassis of the latter could be earthed. > The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they > only made sewing machines ). Didn't Singer own Friden (or at least the name) at one point? I am sure I've seen calculators batched 'Singer Friden'). And I have a telecoms test tone genrator that's badged 'Singer' (I assume the same company) -tony
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Singer certainly had a place in early computing. But was it the same Singer that made sewing machines ? On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 5:02 PM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 4:51 PM dwight via cctalk > wrote: > > > > My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard. > > I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a > transformer power supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a > transformer for the main supply. I went to several secondhand stores and > found one that would work. > > > The original TRS-80 model 1 monitor was based on a live-chassis (hot > chassis?) RCA TV set. The USA version had an optoisolator circuit on > the video input, the LED driver circuit was powered from the +5V line > in the computer (hence the +5V on one pin of the video DIN socket). As > the TV was designed for 115V mains only, the European version has a > step-down transformer on the AC input. They used an isolating > transformer, meaning there was no need to isolate the video input in > the European models. > > Philips made a viewdata termal set where the colour monitor was a > modified KT3 television. The power supply in that starts by bridge > rectifying the mains input, meaning the chassis is dangerously live no > matter which way round the mains is connected. The solution to that > was a 240V 300mA (or so) secondary winding on the mains transformer in > the the viewdate terminal unit. This provided an isolated AC supply to > the monitor, so the chassis of the latter could be earthed. > > > > > > > The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought > they only made sewing machines ). > > Didn't Singer own Friden (or at least the name) at one point? I am > sure I've seen calculators batched 'Singer Friden'). And I have a > telecoms test tone genrator that's badged 'Singer' (I assume the same > company) > > -tony >
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On 9/1/23 09:02, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >> The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they >> only made sewing machines ). > > Didn't Singer own Friden (or at least the name) at one point? I am > sure I've seen calculators batched 'Singer Friden'). And I have a > telecoms test tone genrator that's badged 'Singer' (I assume the same > company) > I've seen desktop card readers with the "Singer" badge as well as printers. Singer purchased Friden in 1965, but continued the Friden brand on some items until 1974. -Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On 9/1/23 09:06, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: > Singer certainly had a place in early computing. But was it the same Singer > that made sewing machines ? > Yes, the sewing machine maker (also purchased Link). The small card reader even sounded like a sewing machine when running. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
They made pistols: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23340620/singer-sewing-machine-company-45-pistol-gun/ Will > > On 9/1/23 09:02, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > >> The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they > >> only made sewing machines ).
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
> I did manage to get one of those stickers off in one piece. I stored > it on the backing paper of some rub-down letter transfers (remember > those?) and never put it back after I completed the > modifications/repairs. My idea was I'd put it on a unit I'd been > inside if I did want to claim on th warranty. Never did that, I might > still have it somewhere. This week I installed a cooling fan in my Commodore 128DCR. I've been inside that unit twice in the last couple months to replace the power supply and then solder the leads and mount the fan. The warranty sticker remains undisturbed. -- personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com -- I have but two things to say to you: Celery and Sidewalk. -- Michel Rivard -
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Tony wrote: > Didn't Singer own Friden (or at least the name) at one point? I am sure I've > seen calculators > batched(sic) 'Singer Friden'). Yup. In July of 1963, Singer announced its intent to purchase Friden. The deal closed in October. It was all a part of a larger diversification move on the part of Singer that began in the early 1960's. Friden employees in general were not at all happy about the acquisition, especially those in design and engineering. Fortunately, the Singer management was far away, and only made occasional visits. But, as is inevitable, the important Friden culture started to be eroded. Singer effectively began the death of internal electronic calculator development at Friden when it quietly started selling the transistorized Friden 1112 electronic calculator, which was made in Japan by Hitachi, purchased under a temporary OEM agreement between Singer and Hitachi. The 1112 was an experiment to see how well the machine sold. It did reasonably well, and that was enough for Singer to slowly begin to dismantle the Friden electronic calculator development operation, and start selling OEM-acquired (from Hitachi initially) calculators under the Singer/Friden badge. The Friden 1154 electronic printing programmable calculator was the last fully-Friden-designed & built electronic calculator developed. The later Friden 1155 was a design that was farmed out to an independent design/development company, which was told to re-use as much from the 1154 as possible. After that, all of the calculators were acquired under OEM agreements from other companies, and by that time, most of the brain trust that made Friden's wonderful and unusual electronic calculators had left. In the fall of 1975, Singer shuttered all Friden operations, ending the legacy of Friden.
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
> On Sep 1, 2023, at 1:23 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk > wrote: > > They made pistols: > https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23340620/singer-sewing-machine-company-45-pistol-gun/ > > Will Lots of companies made weapons during WW2. M1 carbines were made by Rock-Ola, Pitney-Bowes, IBM, GM, Underwood Typewriters, and several others. That's an IBM product I'd love to find... paul
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Fri, Sep 1, 2023 at 6:29 PM Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > > Tony wrote: > > > Didn't Singer own Friden (or at least the name) at one point? I am sure > > I've seen calculators > > batched(sic) 'Singer Friden'). > Singer effectively began the death of internal electronic calculator > development at Friden when it quietly started selling the transistorized > Friden 1112 electronic calculator, which was made in Japan by Hitachi, > purchased under a temporary OEM agreement between Singer and Hitachi. > > The 1112 was an experiment to see how well the machine sold. It did > reasonably well, and that was enough for Singer to slowly begin to dismantle > the Friden electronic calculator development operation, and start selling > OEM-acquired (from Hitachi initially) calculators under the Singer/Friden > badge. By coincidence I bought a Hitachi KK521 (later version with vacuum fluorescent display tubes, not Nixies) a couple of weeks back. I read that it was also sold as the Friden EC1117A. -tony
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On 9/1/23 10:23, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > They made pistols: > https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23340620/singer-sewing-machine-company-45-pistol-gun/ > I love these seeming corporate mismatches. You know, Exxon purchasing Zilog (and a number of other unrelated businesses). My favorite was Ex-cell-o, starting business as a machine tool maker, making waxed-paper milk cartons and purchasing disk maker Bryant. But then we also have Ball Brothers, they of the canning (Mason) jars, going into aerospace and making OEM "kit" monitors... --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
> On 09/01/2023 12:42 PM CDT Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 9/1/23 10:23, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > They made pistols: > > https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23340620/singer-sewing-machine-company-45-pistol-gun/ > > > I love these seeming corporate mismatches. You know, Exxon purchasing > Zilog (and a number of other unrelated businesses). My favorite was > Ex-cell-o, starting business as a machine tool maker, making waxed-paper > milk cartons and purchasing disk maker Bryant. > > But then we also have Ball Brothers, they of the canning (Mason) jars, > going into aerospace and making OEM "kit" monitors... > > --Chuck My favorite is Votrax (speech synthesizers) being a division of Federal Screw Works. Will If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea. Antoine de Saint-Exupery
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Fri, 1 Sep 2023, dwight via cctalk wrote: My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard. I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a transformer power supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transformer for the main supply. I went to several secondhand stores and found one that would work. The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they only made sewing machines ). Dwight Singer/Friden Flexowriter Singer made many things. But sewing machines were successful in the market.
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
With all this talk about Friden and Singer, perhaps someone can help me jog my memory. We were working on a contract that, as remote terminals, included a card reader (singer) and a printing terminal (singer also). The terminal consisted of a leadscrew-fed printing head with a vertical typewheel rotating perpendicular to the (tractor-feed) paper. Said typewheel was in contact with an ink-soaked felt wheel. Carriage return was accomplished via a large spring. Utter steampunk simplicity. What I remember the printers most for was that every printing session started and ended with a page eject, as the ink from the constantly-spinning typewheel made a glorious streak on any stationary paper. I think the printers were eventually scrapped, but I wonder if anyone remembers them. Terminals involving card punching used Univac keypunches--the ones with the LCD display and buffer memory--you typed a card and then hit "feed" and the blank was punched all at once. Apparently, there was an option to hook the thing to a remote server. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On 9/1/23 14:38, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: With all this talk about Friden and Singer, perhaps someone can help me jog my memory. We were working on a contract that, as remote terminals, included a card reader (singer) and a printing terminal (singer also). The terminal consisted of a leadscrew-fed printing head with a vertical typewheel rotating perpendicular to the (tractor-feed) paper. Said typewheel was in contact with an ink-soaked felt wheel. Carriage return was accomplished via a large spring. Utter steampunk simplicity. I remember a Kleinschmidt (I think) printer that had a wheel that spun on a horizontal shaft that was in front of the paper. The wheel had a spline so that it turned synchronously with the shaft, but could be slid left and right, maybe by a toothed belt. Then. I guess there was a hammer behind the paper that pressed it against the ribbon and type wheel when the right character passed by. It printed at 30 chars/second. I looked for this model online but didn't find anything. Jon
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
Chuck wrote: > The terminal consisted of a leadscrew-fed printing head with a vertical > typewheel rotating > perpendicular to the (tractor-feed) paper. Said typewheel was in contact > with an ink-soaked felt > wheel. Carriage return was accomplished via a large spring. Utter > steampunk simplicity. This alphanumeric printer was an extension of the printer internally developed by Friden for its first line of printing electronic calculators, the Friden 115x series. See my online exhibit for one of the 115x calculators, the 1152 at https://oldcalculatormuseum.com/friden1152.html These kind of sucked because of there actually was an intermediate "print wheel inker" drum between the ink-soaked cartridge-loaded ink-source, and the wheel. This intermediate wheel was made of a rubber compound that both A) degraded due to solvent in the ink, and B) degraded due to rubber's usual degradation due to ozone in the atmosphere. In time, this intermediate roller turned into a wad of black, sticky goo that clogged up the works of the printer. I have a number of Friden 115x calculators where this has happened, and replacing that roller is not easy to do, as it's a very precise diameter. I am pretty sure that the alphanumeric version of this printer (which Singer/Friden also sold to OEM customers...not sure if they had many takers) had the same intermediate drum that acted to transfer the ink from the ink roll to the print wheel. In theory, it was kind of a neat design. In practice, it sucked.One thing that was interesting is that the characters on the print wheel were organized in a helical form to help offset the fact that that the carriage motion was constant (it didn't stop when the hammer was fired). The print wheel for an alphanumeric version was larger in diameter to allow for the extra characters beyond those used in a printing calculator.
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On Fri, 1 Sep 2023, wrco...@wrcooke.net wrote: My favorite is Votrax (speech synthesizers) being a division of Federal Screw Works. We have one attached to our lab8/e :-) Christian
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On 9/1/2023 11:45 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard. I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a transformer power supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transformer for the main supply. I went to several secondhand stores and found one that would work. The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they only made sewing machines ). Believe it or not, at one time they even made Flight Simulators. Early 70's I wanted to work at their Binghamton, NY facility but like IBM in Endicott I couldn't even get my foot in the door. bill
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
> On 2 Sep 2023, at 15:07, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > > On 9/1/2023 11:45 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard. >> I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a >> transformer power supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a >> transformer for the main supply. I went to several secondhand stores and >> found one that would work. >> The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they >> only made sewing machines ). > > > Believe it or not, at one time they even made Flight Simulators. Early 70's I > wanted > > to work at their Binghamton, NY facility but like IBM in Endicott I couldn't > even get my > > foot in the door. > > > bill > > The Singer Link F-16 simulator used Norsk Data superminis (initially ND50, but later ND500). This is not really relevant to S-100 and video monitors, but I like to mention Norsk Data whenever the opportunity arises.
[cctalk] Re: Silly question about S-100 and video monitors
On 9/4/2023 3:31 AM, Raymond Wiker via cctalk wrote: On 2 Sep 2023, at 15:07, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 9/1/2023 11:45 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: My first computer was a Poly-88. I had no monitor and no keyboard. I read and understood the instructions about finding a TV that used a transformer power supply. Many newer TV's of that day were not using a transformer for the main supply. I went to several secondhand stores and found one that would work. The keyboard was from a surplus Singer data entry machine ( I thought they only made sewing machines ). Believe it or not, at one time they even made Flight Simulators. Early 70's I wanted to work at their Binghamton, NY facility but like IBM in Endicott I couldn't even get my foot in the door. bill The Singer Link F-16 simulator used Norsk Data superminis (initially ND50, but later ND500). This is not really relevant to S-100 and video monitors, but I like to mention Norsk Data whenever the opportunity arises. Our Singer Link facility was gone by the time the F-16 came around. Think F-4 and maybe even F-104 when I was trying to get a job. Not sure if they did helicopters, too but it would have been UH-1, Cobra and Chinook. bill
