Re: Building a PC - then & now

[John Robertson]

On 01/13/2016 4:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 01/13/2016 03:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote:


In the old days, the shitty kit TVs would have continuous tuners.


In prewar days, it seems that there more than a couple of offerings. 
Didn't Meissner(they of the "Signal Shifter" VFO) offer a kit TV in 
the 30s/early 40s?  I do remember the continuous tuners, though--two 
bands--and one could even tune Channel 1.


A large number of Heathkit color TVs were built by vets using funding 
from the GI bill.  Those were Heath's good days...


--Chuck




I built one of the Heathkit colour TVs in time to watch the moon 
landings. I was 18 and built in one day (and night) and it worked from 
the first turn on. Lasted over twenty years as the main house set only 
needing service every few years until the picture tube gave out finally.


John :-#)#

--
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
 www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[geneb]

On Fri, 15 Jan 2016, John Robertson wrote:

I built one of the Heathkit colour TVs in time to watch the moon landings. I 
was 18 and built in one day (and night) and it worked from the first turn on. 
Lasted over twenty years as the main house set only needing service every few 
years until the picture tube gave out finally.



If you're astronomically bored, check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P1HMJOV0qA=PLEENdRyj_RZb7hgF_88AoF1yQEPvTqkiC

I finished the build over the holiday break.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

RE: Building a PC - then & now

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Raymond
> Wiker
> Sent: 14 January 2016 06:52
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Building a PC - then & now
> 
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 11:29 PM, Murray McCullough <
> c.murray.mccullo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a
> > PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a
> > refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a
> > computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck,
> > that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs
> > INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed?
> >
> 
> I'd say that we still have the freedom to build a computer; in fact, it's
> probably easier than it ever was. True, it may not be feasible to build a 
> high-
> performance computer based on current generation x86 chips, but there are
> so many alternatives: some of the 8-bit favourites are still being made (6502,
> z80); then there's the AVR, PIC, TI 430, the Propeller, various ARM chips.
> 
> There are free or low-cost CAD packages, and having small series of PCBs
> made is almost ridiculously cheap. You can get logic analyzers for $150 or so,
> and if you want to experiment with FPGAs, you can get useful development
> systems for well below $100.


I would say we have more freedom now than ever before. Perhaps Ghz mother 
boards are beyond most people, but other than that there are folks building 
every sort of computer, other than perhaps valve machines.

>From transistor based CPUs, through TTL based CPU's , Microprocessor machines 
>up to FPGA based CPU's...

Dave

RE: Building a PC - then & now

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> Koning
> Sent: 14 January 2016 00:58
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Building a PC - then & now
> 
> 
> > On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:01 PM, William Donzelli <wdonze...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Er...Heathkit is long gone.
> 
> It was for a while.  But it's back.  Check out heathkit.com.
> 
>   paul
> 

Only one kit that uses threaded screw down contacts to avoid soldering.

Dave

RE: Building a PC - then & now

[Dave Wade]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Cisin
> Sent: 14 January 2016 19:55
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Building a PC - then & now
> 
> Howzbout an updated version similar to Cardiac?
> 
> 
> Or, a DIY kit for an Antikythera?

Appart from the fact it is not actually programmable, I am a tad surprised
you can't 3d print one...

Dave

> 
> 

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[Jochen Kunz]

Am 14.01.16 um 11:09 schrieb Dave Wade:
> I would say we have more freedom now than ever before. Perhaps Ghz
> mother boards are beyond most people, but other than that there are
> folks building every sort of computer, other than perhaps valve
> machines.
There is the MUNIAC: http://www.cray-cyber.org/hardware/Hardware.php
Though, uncompleted. (IIRC they have the ALU mostly finished.) But still
a "modern" design valve computer build by hobbyists.
Some Geek-Porn:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/stiefkind/43091224
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Okona
http://www.cray-cyber.org/static/tours2004/LARGE/J_MUNIAC.jpg
http://www.cray-cyber.org/static/tours2004/LARGE/J_MUNIC-Roehrenrechner.jpg
-- 

tschüß,
   Jochen

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[Fred Cisin]

Howzbout an updated version similar to Cardiac?


Or, a DIY kit for an Antikythera?

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[Jerry Kemp]

Sure you can build a car.

Assuming I have the spare $, I could build a brand new 1969 Camaro.  With 
out ever going to GM.


Assuming you have the know how and skills, your biggest problem might be 
deciding which vendor your money will go to for various parts.


Plenty of other US cars could be built in a similar fashion, but the Chevrolet 
is probably one of the more popular ones.


Some also mentioned VW's.  Another good canidate.

Jerry


On 01/13/16 04:29 PM, Murray McCullough wrote:

I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a
PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a
refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a
computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck,
that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs
INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed?

Happy computing.

Murray  :)

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[ben]

On 1/14/2016 12:24 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote:


There is the MUNIAC: http://www.cray-cyber.org/hardware/Hardware.php
Though, uncompleted. (IIRC they have the ALU mostly finished.) But still
a "modern" design valve computer build by hobbyists.
Some Geek-Porn:


Arg!  The PDF links are dead. How about posting the PDF's if you have 
them to bitsavers.

Ben.

RE: Building a PC - then & now

[Paul Birkel]

The Internet Archive Wayback Machine is our friend!

https://web.archive.org/web/20100220165315/http://static.cray-cyber.org/Hardware/MUNIAC.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/20100220165315/http://static.cray-cyber.org/Hardware/PaperMUNIAC.pdf
 

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 3:00 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Building a PC - then & now

On 1/14/2016 12:24 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote:

> There is the MUNIAC: http://www.cray-cyber.org/hardware/Hardware.php
> Though, uncompleted. (IIRC they have the ALU mostly finished.) But 
> still a "modern" design valve computer build by hobbyists.
> Some Geek-Porn:

Arg!  The PDF links are dead. How about posting the PDF's if you have them to 
bitsavers.
Ben.

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[William Donzelli]

> The radio kit they're selling is an embarassment.

So was the O-1.

--
Will

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[geneb]

On Wed, 13 Jan 2016, Paul Koning wrote:




On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:01 PM, William Donzelli  wrote:

Er...Heathkit is long gone.


It was for a while.  But it's back.  Check out heathkit.com.


The radio kit they're selling is an embarassment.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[Raymond Wiker]

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 11:29 PM, Murray McCullough <
c.murray.mccullo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a
> PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a
> refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a
> computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck,
> that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs
> INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed?
>

I'd say that we still have the freedom to build a computer; in fact, it's
probably easier than it ever was. True, it may not be feasible to build
a high-performance computer based on current generation x86 chips,
but there are so many alternatives: some of the 8-bit favourites are still
being made (6502, z80); then there's the AVR, PIC, TI 430, the Propeller,
various ARM chips.

There are free or low-cost CAD packages, and having small series of PCBs
made is almost ridiculously cheap. You can get logic analyzers for $150 or
so, and if you want to experiment with FPGAs, you can get useful
development systems for well below $100.

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[Guy Sotomayor]

> On Jan 13, 2016, at 3:01 PM, William Donzelli  wrote:
> 
> Er...Heathkit is long gone.
> 
> However, there are at least a few car guys that might have a thing or
> two to say about the original post.
> 

I agree.  Kit cars are still around.  ;-)

I don’t know about how easy it would be to build a TV (from scratch…something
Heathkit didn’t do BTW…tuner was pre-assembled and “tuned”) given that the
over-the-air signal is now a digital signal vs analog (ie I can’t recall if 
there’s any
encryption involved that would require decryption keys).

TTFN - Guy

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[Ian S. King]

Can't build a TV?  Heathkit.

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 2:40 PM, ben  wrote:

> On 1/13/2016 3:29 PM, Murray McCullough wrote:
>
>> I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a
>> PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a
>> refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a
>> computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck,
>> that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs
>> INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed?
>>
>> Happy computing.
>>
>> Murray  :)
>>
>>
>> I still think you can build a Car, but VW parts are not as common
> as it was once.
> Ben.
> PS: BUILD A PDP-K, a nice 18 bit that never was.
>
>


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Building a PC - then & now

[Murray McCullough]

I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a
PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a
refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a
computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck,
that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs
INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed?

Happy computing.

Murray  :)

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[ben]

On 1/13/2016 3:29 PM, Murray McCullough wrote:

I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a
PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a
refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a
computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck,
that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs
INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed?

Happy computing.

Murray  :)



I still think you can build a Car, but VW parts are not as common
as it was once.
Ben.
PS: BUILD A PDP-K, a nice 18 bit that never was.

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[William Donzelli]

Er...Heathkit is long gone.

However, there are at least a few car guys that might have a thing or
two to say about the original post.

--
Will

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 5:54 PM, Ian S. King  wrote:
> Can't build a TV?  Heathkit.
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 2:40 PM, ben  wrote:
>
>> On 1/13/2016 3:29 PM, Murray McCullough wrote:
>>
>>> I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a
>>> PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a
>>> refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a
>>> computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck,
>>> that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs
>>> INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed?
>>>
>>> Happy computing.
>>>
>>> Murray  :)
>>>
>>>
>>> I still think you can build a Car, but VW parts are not as common
>> as it was once.
>> Ben.
>> PS: BUILD A PDP-K, a nice 18 bit that never was.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
> The Information School 
> Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
> Narrative Through a Design Lens
>
> Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
> Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 
>
> University of Washington
>
> There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[Jon Elson]

On 01/13/2016 04:29 PM, Murray McCullough wrote:

I was reading in a dated magazine article on the "freedom to build(a
PC)": Well you can't build phone; can't build a car; can't build a
refrigerator; can't build a TV. Do we have the freedom to build a
computer? We did in the earliest days of the PC- the 8-bit era. Heck,
that's all one could do! It was limited and is to this day. AMD vs
INTEL control what we can do. Has anything really changed?


Hmmm, well.  I can build a phone (not a cell phone, of 
course, but a land-line phone is relatively simple.)
Some people have definitely built cars, and gotten them 
licensed.  I have built things that are essentially 
refrigerators.  We have one of those ice cream makers that 
takes about a ton of ice cubes to make one quart of ice 
cream.  I hacked up some refrigeration components to chill 
the brine, which gets re-used.  Works great!


My insane friend Walter turned his Tek RM35 scope into a TV, 
and watched TV on a 5" green screen while he was in 
college.  Hmm, Walter also cloned a Data General Nova with 
piles of TTL chips. Probably very little by AMD or Intel in 
there, either.


Jon

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[Ian S. King]

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Guy Sotomayor  wrote:

>
> > On Jan 13, 2016, at 3:01 PM, William Donzelli 
> wrote:
> >
> > Er...Heathkit is long gone.
> >
> > However, there are at least a few car guys that might have a thing or
> > two to say about the original post.
> >
>
> I agree.  Kit cars are still around.  ;-)
>
> I don’t know about how easy it would be to build a TV (from
> scratch…something
> Heathkit didn’t do BTW…tuner was pre-assembled and “tuned”) given that the
> over-the-air signal is now a digital signal vs analog (ie I can’t recall
> if there’s any
> encryption involved that would require decryption keys).
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>
>
Certainly, but the OP seemed to be referring to the historical context of
the construction of so-called "personal computers", especially 8-bit
machines.  And just to stretch the point a bit, amateur radio operators
were building and using slow-scan TV systems in the 1970s.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[William Donzelli]

> I don’t know about how easy it would be to build a TV (from scratch…something
> Heathkit didn’t do BTW…tuner was pre-assembled and “tuned”) given that the
> over-the-air signal is now a digital signal vs analog (ie I can’t recall if 
> there’s any
> encryption involved that would require decryption keys).

In the old days, the shitty kit TVs would have continuous tuners.

--
Will

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[Chuck Guzis]

On 01/13/2016 03:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote:


In the old days, the shitty kit TVs would have continuous tuners.


In prewar days, it seems that there more than a couple of offerings. 
Didn't Meissner(they of the "Signal Shifter" VFO) offer a kit TV in the 
30s/early 40s?  I do remember the continuous tuners, though--two 
bands--and one could even tune Channel 1.


A large number of Heathkit color TVs were built by vets using funding 
from the GI bill.  Those were Heath's good days...


--Chuck

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[Paul Koning]

Must be.  New kits, old manuals, upgrades for old kits -- at least a brief 
glance gave me a  pretty positive impression.

paul

> On Jan 13, 2016, at 8:07 PM, William Donzelli  wrote:
> 
> Is that the guy that bought the Heath IP?
> 
> --
> Will
> 
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 7:57 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:01 PM, William Donzelli  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Er...Heathkit is long gone.
>> 
>> It was for a while.  But it's back.  Check out heathkit.com.
>> 
>>paul
>> 
>> 

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[ben]

On 1/13/2016 4:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote:

I don’t know about how easy it would be to build a TV (from scratch…something
Heathkit didn’t do BTW…tuner was pre-assembled and “tuned”) given that the
over-the-air signal is now a digital signal vs analog (ie I can’t recall if 
there’s any
encryption involved that would require decryption keys).


In the old days, the shitty kit TVs would have continuous tuners.


But then again you only had 1 TV channel at most in the AREA.

*** THE TWILIGHT ZONE ***

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[Ian S. King]

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> On 01/13/2016 03:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
>
> In the old days, the shitty kit TVs would have continuous tuners.
>>
>
> In prewar days, it seems that there more than a couple of offerings.
> Didn't Meissner(they of the "Signal Shifter" VFO) offer a kit TV in the
> 30s/early 40s?  I do remember the continuous tuners, though--two bands--and
> one could even tune Channel 1.
>
> A large number of Heathkit color TVs were built by vets using funding from
> the GI bill.  Those were Heath's good days...
>
> --Chuck
>
>
ISTR ads in magazines like Popular Electronics offering courses on TV
repair that employed the Heathkit as the learning platform.


-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[William Donzelli]

Is that the guy that bought the Heath IP?

--
Will

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 7:57 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
>
>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:01 PM, William Donzelli  wrote:
>>
>> Er...Heathkit is long gone.
>
> It was for a while.  But it's back.  Check out heathkit.com.
>
> paul
>
>

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[COURYHOUSE]

I think the Pilot brand  TV at the museum  may be continuous  and yes has  
chan 1
 
Ed!
 
 
In a message dated 1/13/2016 5:54:46 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
ccl...@sydex.com writes:

On  01/13/2016 03:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote:

> In the old days, the  shitty kit TVs would have continuous tuners.

In prewar days, it seems  that there more than a couple of offerings. 
Didn't Meissner(they of the  "Signal Shifter" VFO) offer a kit TV in the 
30s/early 40s?  I do  remember the continuous tuners, though--two 
bands--and one could even tune  Channel 1.

A large number of Heathkit color TVs were built by vets  using funding 
from the GI bill.  Those were Heath's good  days...

--Chuck

Re: Building a PC - then & now

[Paul Koning]

> On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:01 PM, William Donzelli  wrote:
> 
> Er...Heathkit is long gone.

It was for a while.  But it's back.  Check out heathkit.com.

paul

Heathkit (Re: Building a PC - then & now)

[Jay Jaeger]

On 1/13/2016 7:15 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

> Must be.  New kits, old manuals, upgrades for old kits -- at least a brief 
> glance gave me a  pretty positive impression.
> 
>   paul
> 

Meh.  It has taken them, like, 5 years to come out with this seriously
overpriced radio, and it isn't even superhet for crying out loud.  The
rest are just pieces parts.

They created a lot of hype, but have done almost nothing real.

Maybe someday they will be real, but not yet.

JRJ