Re: HP Series 9000 early 1980’s computer hardware

[Frank McConnell via cctalk]

On May 17, 2018, at 15:48, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 4:15 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> HP-UX for them is very interesting from a historical perspective in that the 
> Unix kernel is a complete rewrite.  It is hosted on top of HP’s “SUN OS” 
> operating system (there is also a single-user BASIC system for the 9020, also 
> hosted on SUN OS) and written in HP’s MODCAL language.  The filesystem is 
> HP’s Structured Directory Format.  The userland is largely made up of ports 
> from AT System III (and later System V) and 4BSD.
> 
> HP-UX did a fairly extensive kernel rewrite, but implemented substantially 
> the same system call interface. This was apparent in a number of ways (the 
> binary format was different from other machines in ways I can't quite recall, 
> not quite COFF). They did ship mostly programs from BSD and SysV, though 
> through quirks of the legal minefield of the early days of Unix, they did it 
> under their System III license, at least in the early days... Don't know if 
> that ever changed to a System V license or not since they didn't have a 
> System V kernel...

I am thinking HP did at least four flavors of HP-UX.

First was HP-UX for the first-generation 9000s that became the Series 500.  I 
think it took System III as a baseline and reimplemented in MODCAL, and later 
added System V support.

Second was HP-UX for the 9836 (later Series 200).  That is a 68010 system and I 
think was a System III port.

Third was HP-UX for Series 300.  These are 680x0 systems for x>=2 and I think 
their HP-UX was a System III port later upgraded to System V.

Fourth was HP-UX for Series 800.  These are PA-RISC minis and I think their 
HP-UX was a 4BSD port with System V features for compatibility with series 300.

I’m not sure where the Integral fit in.  That was a single-user 68000, probably 
closest to series 200, with no MMU.
 
> So when it is running HP-UX it looks like Unix, with some exceptions.  One is 
> that if you open and read a directory from your C program there are no 
> entries for . (current) or .. (parent) directories; these are done in SDF’s 
> directory entry and not present in the actual Unix directory.  Yes, ls -a 
> shows them: it is faking them to make it look more like Unix!
> 
> I think they must have fixed this, or it wasn't true for readdir(). I ported 
> the OI toolkit to HP-UX once upon a time and the file dialog boxes just 
> worked, and we had . and .. in there…

Were you really working with a Series 500?  I don’t think anyone ever ported X 
libraries to them.  No usable TCP/IP stack on them unless you bought the 
Wollongong product.  (I am thinking HP had one for it too, for their NS/9000 
products, but it was IEEE 802.3 framing with 802.2 LLC header and not 
interoperable with Ethernet II.)

Series 300/400 (Motorola 680x0 for x >= 2) ran an HP-UX that I think is a 
System V derived kernel, or at least the later releases were, with a 4BSD TCP 
stack.  Series 800/700 ran an HP-UX that I think was a new port from 4BSD, but 
with System V features added for compatibility with the Series 300.
 
> -Frank McConnell (supported Wollongong’s TCP/IP on these)
> 
> Danger! The Sea Monster Comes!

Yup, my real thing there was supporting Wollongong’s WIN/TCP for MPE/V, which 
wasn’t really Wollongong’s TCP/IP but was instead Telnet, FTP, and SMTP clients 
and services on top of HP’s NetIPC TCP API.  Telnet and FTP were mostly 4BSD 
ports to CCS C/3000 and NetIPC and MPE.

(And in this message, y’all are getting all the wonder of Apple Mail promoting 
characters to Unicode and the horrible Gmail quoting with spaces.  I hope it’s 
understandable.)

-Frank McConnell

Re: HP 9000 model 300 (was: HP Series 9000 early 1980’s computer hardware)

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

What is  all with the basic  box?  thanks ed#
 
In a message dated 5/18/2018 10:39:45 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

 
HP 9000 Series 300

HP 9000 model 300 (was: HP Series 9000 early 1980’s computer hardware)

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

Is there interest here in the HP 9000 Series 300? I know nothing about them, 
but there is one in the AS-IS section at the local computer recycler (RePC in 
Seattle) for $40.

alan 

> On May 17, 2018, at 3:15 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> The 9000 Series 500 is very different from later 9000s.
> 
> I don’t think there more than one speed of CPU, although there was an early 
> and later CPU with the later CPU having a floating-point unit onboard.  What 
> you get out of a 9000 Series 550 over a Series 520 (aka 9020) is mostly more 
> I/O slots, as I recall the 9020 had a short I/O cage.  But I think the 
> processor cage is the same size and can host about the same sets of cards.
> 
> The CPU is a 32-bit stack machine, very like a wide classic-3000, and there 
> can be up to three CPUs in a system.  There is an IOP that front-ends a 
> CIO-type I/O bus (same bus and some of the same peripheral cards used in 
> early PA-RISC systems) and I think you can have two IOPs in a system.
> 
> HP-UX for them is very interesting from a historical perspective in that the 
> Unix kernel is a complete rewrite.  It is hosted on top of HP’s “SUN OS” 
> operating system (there is also a single-user BASIC system for the 9020, also 
> hosted on SUN OS) and written in HP’s MODCAL language.  The filesystem is 
> HP’s Structured Directory Format.  The userland is largely made up of ports 
> from AT System III (and later System V) and 4BSD.
> 
> So when it is running HP-UX it looks like Unix, with some exceptions.  One is 
> that if you open and read a directory from your C program there are no 
> entries for . (current) or .. (parent) directories; these are done in SDF’s 
> directory entry and not present in the actual Unix directory.  Yes, ls -a 
> shows them: it is faking them to make it look more like Unix!
> 
> -Frank McConnell (supported Wollongong’s TCP/IP on these)
> 
>> On May 17, 2018, at 13:48, Ed Sharpe wrote:
>> 
>> actually we are lacking 9000 gear for smecc. where is it located? we are in 
>> AZ...
>> HP Computer Museum overseas is awesome... The site has saved us mauna time 
>> with the excellent documents there.
>> 
>> ed#
>> 
>> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
>> 
>> On Thursday, May 17, 2018 David Collins via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>> I agree with Al. Chas approached the HP Computer Museum on this and as much 
>> as they would be great to add to the collection, the shipping costs to 
>> Australia and the fact that the museum is more in a consolidation mode than 
>> acquisition meant we weren’t able to take them in. 
>> 
>> Hopefully someone close by to him would like to have these units!
>> 
>> David Collins
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On 18 May 2018, at 1:35 am, Al Kossow via cctalk  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Series 500 machines are quite rare. Someone should save these.
>>> 
 On 5/16/18 10:00 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote:
 
 I own several HP 9020 work stations along with peripheral gear associated 
 with that series.
>>> 
>>> 
> 

Re: HP Series 9000 early 1980’s computer hardware

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

Thanks  for the  update. I do not have  much knowledge on the HP-UX  as   I 
spent user time  on the  HP-3000  MPE  side . (well and  before that  HP2000 
and a little HP-1000 and PDP-8) 
 
Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 5/18/2018 7:34:58 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
space...@gmail.com writes:

 
On Thu, May 17, 2018, 17:57 Ed Sharpe via cctalk  wrote:
Is HP UX that it  runs similar  to what is on the HP INTEGRAL ?
 
No, the fake-Unix-on-HP-Sun-OS HP-UX was only on the 9000/500 series. All the 
other HP-UX versions are "normal".
 
 

Re: HP Series 9000 early 1980’s computer hardware

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Thu, May 17, 2018, 17:57 Ed Sharpe via cctalk 
wrote:

> Is HP UX that it  runs similar  to what is on the HP INTEGRAL ?
>

No, the fake-Unix-on-HP-Sun-OS HP-UX was only on the 9000/500 series. All
the other HP-UX versions are "normal".

Re: HP Series 9000 early 1980’s computer hardware

[r.stricklin via cctalk]

On May 17, 2018, at 8:35 AM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote:

> Series 500 machines are quite rare. Someone should save these.

I contacted him yesterday evening about it, but haven't had a reply yet.

ok
bear.

-- 
until further notice

Re: HP Series 9000 early 1980’s computer hardware

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

Is HP UX that it  runs similar  to what is on the HP INTEGRAL ?
 
In a message dated 5/17/2018 3:48:52 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

 
HP-UX did a fairly extensive kernel rewrite, but implemented substantially
the same system call interface. This was apparent in a number of ways (the
binary format was different from other machines in ways I can't quite
recall, not quite COFF). They did ship mostly programs from BSD and SysV,
though through quirks of the legal minefield of the early days of Unix,
they did it under their System III license, at least in the early days...
Don't know if that ever changed to a System V license or not since they
didn't have a System V kernel...

Re: HP Series 9000 early 1980’s computer hardware

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 4:15 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> HP-UX for them is very interesting from a historical perspective in that
> the Unix kernel is a complete rewrite.  It is hosted on top of HP’s “SUN
> OS” operating system (there is also a single-user BASIC system for the
> 9020, also hosted on SUN OS) and written in HP’s MODCAL language.  The
> filesystem is HP’s Structured Directory Format.  The userland is largely
> made up of ports from AT System III (and later System V) and 4BSD.
>

HP-UX did a fairly extensive kernel rewrite, but implemented substantially
the same system call interface. This was apparent in a number of ways (the
binary format was different from other machines in ways I can't quite
recall, not quite COFF). They did ship mostly programs from BSD and SysV,
though through quirks of the legal minefield of the early days of Unix,
they did it under their System III license, at least in the early days...
Don't know if that ever changed to a System V license or not since they
didn't have a System V kernel...


> So when it is running HP-UX it looks like Unix, with some exceptions.  One
> is that if you open and read a directory from your C program there are no
> entries for . (current) or .. (parent) directories; these are done in SDF’s
> directory entry and not present in the actual Unix directory.  Yes, ls -a
> shows them: it is faking them to make it look more like Unix!
>

I think they must have fixed this, or it wasn't true for readdir(). I
ported the OI toolkit to HP-UX once upon a time and the file dialog boxes
just worked, and we had . and .. in there...


> -Frank McConnell (supported Wollongong’s TCP/IP on these)


Danger! The Sea Monster Comes!

Warner


> On May 17, 2018, at 13:48, Ed Sharpe wrote:
> >
> > actually we are lacking 9000 gear for smecc. where is it located? we are
> in AZ...
> > HP Computer Museum overseas is awesome... The site has saved us mauna
> time with the excellent documents there.
> >
> >  ed#
> >
> > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
> >
> > On Thursday, May 17, 2018 David Collins via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > I agree with Al. Chas approached the HP Computer Museum on this and as
> much as they would be great to add to the collection, the shipping costs to
> Australia and the fact that the museum is more in a consolidation mode than
> acquisition meant we weren’t able to take them in.
> >
> > Hopefully someone close by to him would like to have these units!
> >
> > David Collins
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> >> On 18 May 2018, at 1:35 am, Al Kossow via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Series 500 machines are quite rare. Someone should save these.
> >>
> >>> On 5/16/18 10:00 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I own several HP 9020 work stations along with peripheral gear
> associated with that series.
> >>
> >>
>
>

Re: HP Series 9000 early 1980’s computer hardware

[Frank McConnell via cctalk]

The 9000 Series 500 is very different from later 9000s.

I don’t think there more than one speed of CPU, although there was an early and 
later CPU with the later CPU having a floating-point unit onboard.  What you 
get out of a 9000 Series 550 over a Series 520 (aka 9020) is mostly more I/O 
slots, as I recall the 9020 had a short I/O cage.  But I think the processor 
cage is the same size and can host about the same sets of cards.

The CPU is a 32-bit stack machine, very like a wide classic-3000, and there can 
be up to three CPUs in a system.  There is an IOP that front-ends a CIO-type 
I/O bus (same bus and some of the same peripheral cards used in early PA-RISC 
systems) and I think you can have two IOPs in a system.

HP-UX for them is very interesting from a historical perspective in that the 
Unix kernel is a complete rewrite.  It is hosted on top of HP’s “SUN OS” 
operating system (there is also a single-user BASIC system for the 9020, also 
hosted on SUN OS) and written in HP’s MODCAL language.  The filesystem is HP’s 
Structured Directory Format.  The userland is largely made up of ports from 
AT System III (and later System V) and 4BSD.

So when it is running HP-UX it looks like Unix, with some exceptions.  One is 
that if you open and read a directory from your C program there are no entries 
for . (current) or .. (parent) directories; these are done in SDF’s directory 
entry and not present in the actual Unix directory.  Yes, ls -a shows them: it 
is faking them to make it look more like Unix!

-Frank McConnell (supported Wollongong’s TCP/IP on these)

On May 17, 2018, at 13:48, Ed Sharpe wrote:
> 
> actually we are lacking 9000 gear for smecc. where is it located? we are in 
> AZ...
> HP Computer Museum overseas is awesome... The site has saved us mauna time 
> with the excellent documents there.
> 
>  ed#
> 
> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
> 
> On Thursday, May 17, 2018 David Collins via cctalk  
> wrote:
> I agree with Al. Chas approached the HP Computer Museum on this and as much 
> as they would be great to add to the collection, the shipping costs to 
> Australia and the fact that the museum is more in a consolidation mode than 
> acquisition meant we weren’t able to take them in. 
> 
> Hopefully someone close by to him would like to have these units!
> 
> David Collins
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On 18 May 2018, at 1:35 am, Al Kossow via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Series 500 machines are quite rare. Someone should save these.
>> 
>>> On 5/16/18 10:00 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote:
>>> 
>>> I own several HP 9020 work stations along with peripheral gear associated 
>>> with that series.
>> 
>> 

Re: HP Series 9000 early 1980’s computer hardware

[Ed Sharpe via cctalk]

actually we are lacking 9000 gear for smecc. where is it located? we are in 
AZ...
HP Computer Museum overseas is awesome... The site has saved us mauna time with 
the excellent documents there.

  ed#

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Thursday, May 17, 2018 David Collins via cctalk  
wrote:
I agree with Al. Chas approached the HP Computer Museum on this and as much as 
they would be great to add to the collection, the shipping costs to Australia 
and the fact that the museum is more in a consolidation mode than acquisition 
meant we weren’t able to take them in. 

Hopefully someone close by to him would like to have these units!

David Collins

Sent from my iPad

> On 18 May 2018, at 1:35 am, Al Kossow via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Series 500 machines are quite rare. Someone should save these.
> 
>> On 5/16/18 10:00 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>> I own several HP 9020 work stations along with peripheral gear associated 
>> with that series.
> 
> 

Re: HP Series 9000 early 1980’s computer hardware

[David Collins via cctalk]

I agree with Al.  Chas approached the HP Computer Museum on this and as much as 
they would be great to add to the collection, the shipping costs to Australia 
and the fact that the museum is more in a consolidation mode than acquisition 
meant we weren’t able to take them in. 

Hopefully someone close by to him would like to have these units!

David Collins

Sent from my iPad

> On 18 May 2018, at 1:35 am, Al Kossow via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Series 500 machines are quite rare. Someone should save these.
> 
>> On 5/16/18 10:00 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>> I own several HP 9020 work stations along with peripheral gear associated 
>> with that series.
> 
> 

Re: HP Series 9000 early 1980’s computer hardware

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

Series 500 machines are quite rare. Someone should save these.

On 5/16/18 10:00 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote:

> I own several HP 9020 work stations along with peripheral gear associated 
> with that series.

HP Series 9000 early 1980’s computer hardware

[Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk]

The following was sent to the list as an attachment so I am forwarding 
it. Please don't reply to me but rather to Mr Parker. I have removed his 
full address and phone number.


To:  classiccmp.org
Re: HP Series 9000 early 1980’s computer hardware

Hi,

I own several HP 9020 work stations along with peripheral gear 
associated with that series. That gear includes several types of hard 
drives and tape drives, standalone monitors and even an impact 132 
character line printer. I also have a CPU, that I think is a 9000/550. 
Not a work station but a more powerful CPU using the same technology as 
the 9000/520. Plus cables and extra circuit boards used in that series 
equipment. All of the stuff worked the last time it was fired up. I also 
have the disks and tapes for the software shipped with that equipment.


I am getting along in years and rather leaving it to be trashed in the 
future I am looking for a new home for the stuff. So can you suggest 
someone who might be interested in it?


Sincerely,

Charles D. Parker

Howell, MI 48844
chas.par...@comcast.net

--
Lawrence Wilkinson  lawrence at ljw.me.uk
The IBM 360/30 page   http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360