Re: Tools, Craftsman (Was: Model M case screws

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 7/2/2017 3:02 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:

For me new tools pretty much come for European companies, from estate
sales,
An old fellow pulled into an astronomy related material swap meet next 
to me several years ago, opened his trunk while I was standing there and 
pulled out one of the medium sized toolboxes.   Turned out to be full of 
tools, all old Craftsman.  He was going to sell them catch as catch can, 
but i asked how much, and he said $50 for the thing, including the case.


Very good stuff with made in USA.  I ever abuse tools to the point of 
replacement for that reason, and none of these have had any problems.  I 
also have my fathers which he bought when my mother worked @ 15th & 
Cleveland in Kansas City, Mo from 46 to 51, so I suspect those are 
pretty good.


Sears refused to take a verified credit card I had when I moved from KC 
to Irvine, CA in 1975, so I could buy a bed the first night in a new 
house, and I told them if they wouldn't take the card, I'd never set 
foot in a Sears store ever again.  Made good on my word.  No excuse 
including the store manager and the local store credit manager standing 
there eye ball to eyeball.


I had verified that it was good anywhere in the US prior to leaving with 
the intent of doing this thru channels, and I never bothered to follow 
up.  Put me sleeping on the rug, and there is no more interest in the 
operation.  Typical of the customer service they have that doomed them 
which started prior to that.

Re: Tools, Craftsman (Was: Model M case screws

[Pete Lancashire via cctalk]

Sears long ago stopped making tools. They finally got out of the holding
business with the products and sold them to Stanley Black & Decker.
While under Sears, they would lease the brand-name to pretty much the
highest bidder, if that bidder was also a company that made Harbor
Freight Sears could care less as long as the check did not bounce. It like
many companies made them money and were just a clerks job once
a year to send out the invoice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craftsman_(tools)

Beginning in 2010, hand tools manufactured for Craftsman by Apex Tool Group
such as ratchets, sockets, and wrenches began being
produced overseas (mainly in China although some are produced in Taiwan),

BTW Stanley B is also another 'holding' company. Some stuff made here,
some in China.

   - Craftsman  –
   private-label hand tools for Sears ,
   up until the mid-1980s. Reacquired by Stanley in 2017


All these companies spend millions on federal lobbying and are very very
non aligned to any political party, they "contribute" to the
highest bidder to keep the country of origin off the label.

For me new tools pretty much come for European companies, from estate
sales, or the few US companies that still care about their
reputation which usually means not yet acquired by the above and I keep my
eye on eBay for driver bits in bulk that are from when
their respective company gave a crap. Getting harder and harder to find.


On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 07/02/2017 01:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>
> > But Sears got SO bad for a while that in my Honda book I said, "better
> > to have a few good tools . . . than a lifetime supply of scrap metal
> > tools, ready and waiting to hurt you."  (p 236)
>
> I recently had the retainer ball (that holds sockets) on my 3/8"
> Craftsman ratchet fail (wouldn't hold onto sockets) and I took it to
> Sears for a replacement.
>
> I wasn't offered a replacement, but rather a "refurbished" ratchet.  I
> declined that and accepted a free refurb kit, which I installed myself.
> It's not quite as good as the original part, but it works.
>
> What with Sears teetering on insolvency, any of the "free replacement"
> guarantees will likely be history.
>
> Curiously, a lot of Menard's Master Force tools are made in the USA, by
> Allen, so, if you're careful, you can get some pretty decent stuff from
> a big-box store.
>
> I think a lot of USA-made Craftsman hand tools are made by Armstrong,
> which can often be purchased for less than the same Craftsman product.
> At least the two lines *look* the same.
>
> I like SK and Proto and many swear by Mac.
>
> I have a few tools from Sears that are celebrating their 50th birthday,
> as well as a few with the Power-Kraft brand from the long-defunct Monkey
> Wards.
>
> Some brands have suffered badly under the shadow of acquisition.   Klein
> used to be the best source for small pliers and cutters, but my
> experience with them lately has not demonstrated that.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Model M case screws

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

> On Sun, 2 Jul 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> About the best advice I've heard in this respect was "if you're looking
>> to assemble a good assortment of hand tools, make an offer for the
>> contents of the toolchest  to the widow of a recently deceased mechanic."

service cases and tool boxes show up fairly often on eBay

I bought a not very attractive one that I recognized as coming from a DEC
field service guy, which has all sorts of very handy little things for working 
on
disk drives that filled a very big hole in my tool chest.

Re: Tools, Craftsman (Was: Model M case screws

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 7/2/17 2:15 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> Some brands have suffered badly under the shadow of acquisition.   Klein
> used to be the best source for small pliers and cutters, but my
> experience with them lately has not demonstrated that.

Xcelite was never the greatest stuff in the world, but you can see the 
progression
to garbage with each company that bought the name. They claim to be make in the 
US
but I have a tough time beleiving it.

My latest adventure was trying to find a circlip pliers to lube the bearing on 
a Boxer
fan. Finally bought a Knipex 48 11 J0 which was a decent tool at a medium 
price. Anything
cheaper was worthless crap.

Re: Model M case screws

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 2 Jul 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

About the best advice I've heard in this respect was "if you're looking
to assemble a good assortment of hand tools, make an offer for the
contents of the toolchest  to the widow of a recently deceased mechanic."


Thanks
I'm updating my will  (ER confirms that upcoming next attempt at prostate 
surgery will not be laparoscopic)

Re: Model M case screws

[Chris Pye via cctalk]

> 
> It was on a test-bench setup.   Part of my job back then was calibrating
> the stroke of cylinders to the 3-15 psi control signal.  Plant air
> (power supply for the cylinder) was around 50 psi, IIRC.

Lucky it was just the pliers. Pneumatics can be rather dangerous at that 
pressure.

> 
> Just one of those things, where you forget where you left things.  Of
> course, nowadays, more than a half-century later, I forget where I leave
> my keys, glasses, wife, etc.   So it's not something that's remedied
> with age…

I’m sure your wife loves that..

When I was an electrician working in the HVAC industry, we had fortnightly 
catchups to swap tools that we had found (or left) in ceiling cavities. I still 
have stuff with other peoples names engraved on them.

> 
> Indeed, lately I seem to be suffering increasingly with the "where did I
> put that?" problem, even if the "when" was only a few minutes earlier.

I’m not even fifty, and I have that problem.

Re: Model M case screws

[systems_glitch via cctalk]

Good advice on buying the whole toolchest.

Wiha does make excellent drivers and insert bits. Their security bits are
top-notch as well -- I ended up buying their general security
"bits-selector" set after wasting $5 on one of those Harbor Freight
assortments.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 07/02/2017 07:36 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote:
>
> > I'm a little late to this thread but I didn't see anyone mention the Wiha
> > brand which also have a slim Nut Driver set with a 7/32" bit in the kit.
> > When I was refurbing a couple model M here, I invested in this Wiha set,
>
> I've got a few smaller Wiha drivers and they are pretty good.
>
> About the best advice I've heard in this respect was "if you're looking
> to assemble a good assortment of hand tools, make an offer for the
> contents of the toolchest  to the widow of a recently deceased mechanic."
>
> --Chuck
>
>

Re: Model M case screws

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 07/02/2017 07:36 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote:

> I'm a little late to this thread but I didn't see anyone mention the Wiha
> brand which also have a slim Nut Driver set with a 7/32" bit in the kit.
> When I was refurbing a couple model M here, I invested in this Wiha set,

I've got a few smaller Wiha drivers and they are pretty good.

About the best advice I've heard in this respect was "if you're looking
to assemble a good assortment of hand tools, make an offer for the
contents of the toolchest  to the widow of a recently deceased mechanic."

--Chuck

Re: Model M case screws

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 07/02/2017 09:45 AM, Chris Pye wrote:

> Chuck, dare may I ask what you were doing with electricians pliers that close 
> to a pneumatic cylinder?

It was on a test-bench setup.   Part of my job back then was calibrating
the stroke of cylinders to the 3-15 psi control signal.  Plant air
(power supply for the cylinder) was around 50 psi, IIRC.

Just one of those things, where you forget where you left things.  Of
course, nowadays, more than a half-century later, I forget where I leave
my keys, glasses, wife, etc.   So it's not something that's remedied
with age...

Indeed, lately I seem to be suffering increasingly with the "where did I
put that?" problem, even if the "when" was only a few minutes earlier.

--Chuck

Re: Model M case screws

[Chris Pye via cctalk]

> On 2 Jul 2017, at 4:03 pm, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> I once got a pair of electrician's pliers caught between the yoke and
> body of a 6" pneumatic cylinder.  Snapped the handles right off, it did.
>  The local Sears store replaced the pliers without
> questioning--although they did marvel at the damage.
> 
> --Chuck

Chuck, dare may I ask what you were doing with electricians pliers that close 
to a pneumatic cylinder?

Chris..

Re: Model M case screws

[Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk]

> On Jul 1, 2017, at 11:12 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
>> The quality of tools has declined.  It used to be that Sears Roebuck
>> "Craftsman" hand tools were among the best and were sold with an
>> unconditional warranty.  Not so any more.
> 
> The best spanners I have come across are made by Stahlwille. But be
> sitting down when they quote the price. The few I have I expect to
> last for the rest of my life though.
> 

Snap-on brand tools are the best that I’ve come across though they are
shockingly expensive.

I did have first hand experience in the difference between my “good”
Sears Craftsman (30 years ago) tools and Snap-on and it showed me
how much better the Snap-on tools were.

TTFN - Guy

Re: Model M case screws

[Jules Richardson via cctalk]

On 07/02/2017 01:03 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 07/01/2017 10:27 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:


I was told years ago that in general the thinner-wall sockets are better
quality -- they have to be made from stronger steel alloy to work at
all. Obviously there are exceptions


It wouldn't surprise me if some of the cheaper stuff was made from pot
metal.  I encountered a small Chinese adjustable wrench that was, in
fact, made just that way with a nice chromium plating.  I think it was
intended to be more decorative than functional.


Yes, I expect that's the case. This socket I got for the M feels heavy 
enough to be real metal, but I still doubt it can be that high quality for 
$3! Still, it did the job and the keyboard's all nice and clean again 
(although when I opened it up I found that several of the heat stakes are 
no longer doing their thing, so it may need some TLC in the near future)



The quality of tools has declined.  It used to be that Sears Roebuck
"Craftsman" hand tools were among the best and were sold with an
unconditional warranty.  Not so any more.


Their power tools weren't bad, either - I've got a few old ones kicking 
around bought from yard sales etc. because it's nice to have a backup, and 
they seem to be quite robust.



I once got a pair of electrician's pliers caught between the yoke and
body of a 6" pneumatic cylinder.  Snapped the handles right off, it did.


That's impressive. I actually grabbed a pair of cheapo Masterforce 
lineman's pliers (i.e. same brand as the socket I got for the model M) as a 
spare pair for when I can't find my good ones, and the pivot started going 
bad after only a few uses.


The problem I have these days is that you just don't get what you pay for - 
throwing more money at a tool doesn't seem to equate to better quality, and 
a lot of the high end stuff's using weak plastic parts or sharing the same 
motors and such with the lower-end products. I can never decide whether to 
buy new and deal with short lifespan, or buy old and put time/effort into 
fixing any wear.



  The local Sears store replaced the pliers without questioning--
although they did marvel at the damage.


I don't think we have a Sears here any more, at least not a real one. They 
moved a few years ago and I think the new one just sells fridges and things 
like that.


cheers

Jules

Re: Model M case screws

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 7:03 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:
> On 07/01/2017 10:27 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
>
>> I was told years ago that in general the thinner-wall sockets are better
>> quality -- they have to be made from stronger steel alloy to work at
>> all. Obviously there are exceptions
>
> It wouldn't surprise me if some of the cheaper stuff was made from pot
> metal.  I encountered a small Chinese adjustable wrench that was, in
> fact, made just that way with a nice chromium plating.  I think it was
> intended to be more decorative than functional.

Over here you get things like that in 'pound shops' (equivalent of
dollar stores). Spanners that seem to be made of unbaked
clay or something of similar strength.

>
> The quality of tools has declined.  It used to be that Sears Roebuck
> "Craftsman" hand tools were among the best and were sold with an
> unconditional warranty.  Not so any more.

The best spanners I have come across are made by Stahlwille. But be
sitting down when they quote the price. The few I have I expect to
last for the rest of my life though.

-tony

Re: Model M case screws

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 07/01/2017 10:27 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:

> I was told years ago that in general the thinner-wall sockets are better
> quality -- they have to be made from stronger steel alloy to work at
> all. Obviously there are exceptions

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the cheaper stuff was made from pot
metal.  I encountered a small Chinese adjustable wrench that was, in
fact, made just that way with a nice chromium plating.  I think it was
intended to be more decorative than functional.

The quality of tools has declined.  It used to be that Sears Roebuck
"Craftsman" hand tools were among the best and were sold with an
unconditional warranty.  Not so any more.

I once got a pair of electrician's pliers caught between the yoke and
body of a 6" pneumatic cylinder.  Snapped the handles right off, it did.
  The local Sears store replaced the pliers without
questioning--although they did marvel at the damage.

--Chuck

Re: Model M case screws

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 12:09 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk
 wrote:

> Anyway, I picked up a cheap 7/32" deep socket from Menards ($3 or so) - and
> as it happens, it Just Works without modification. It's not marketed as
> thin-walled; I expect they just made it cheap by leaving out a bunch of
> metal, but that works in my favor in this case. (It's a Master Force one,
> just in case any future beings reading this need to know)

I was told years ago that in general the thinner-wall sockets are better
quality -- they have to be made from stronger steel alloy to work at
all. Obviously there are exceptions

-tony

Re: Model M case screws

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 07/01/2017 01:23 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:

> It does look like I can get a 7/32" socket for a couple of bucks, though
> - so maybe I'll go that route for now and just shave it down a little
> with the bench grinder. It can live on the shelf with the homebrew Mac
> case dismantling tool ;)

Don't.   You need a *thinshell*  nutdriver--ordinary sockets are too
thick. Like others, I use a 7/32 Xcelite full-size driver.

--Chuck

Re: Model M case screws

[Jules Richardson via cctalk]

On 07/01/2017 02:12 PM, Adam Sampson via cctalk wrote:

Jules Richardson via cctalk  writes:


Google suggests that they might be 7/32", but I'm not sure; that's
less of a common size (vs. 3/16" or 1/4", say) - I'm not even sure I
could find a driver like that around here.


Yes, they're 7/32", but in a narrow hole that means some bits won't
reach.


Hmm, well I'll see what I can find when I go into town in a little bit - 
looking at websites for local stores though it seems I'm probably not going 
to have any luck with a 7/32" driver.


It does look like I can get a 7/32" socket for a couple of bucks, though - 
so maybe I'll go that route for now and just shave it down a little with 
the bench grinder. It can live on the shelf with the homebrew Mac case 
dismantling tool ;)


cheers

Jules

Re: Model M case screws

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 8:12 PM, Adam Sampson via cctalk
 wrote:
> Jules Richardson via cctalk  writes:
>
>> Google suggests that they might be 7/32", but I'm not sure; that's
>> less of a common size (vs. 3/16" or 1/4", say) - I'm not even sure I
>> could find a driver like that around here.
>
> Yes, they're 7/32", but in a narrow hole that means some bits won't
> reach. Xcelite do a nut driver that fits nicely:
> https://stuff.offog.org/model-m-screwdriver.jpg
>
> I got mine in the UK a few years ago from Mouser, part numbers 578-997
> for the driver and 578-99-1 for the handle.

That's what I use as well, Xcellite System 99. I bought almost the complete
range over the years, it's the easiest way to get Bristol spline keys (needed
for the Friden Flexowriter, IBM5155 monitor, etc) in the UK.

Incidentally the System 99 torx bits on an X5 extension will fit the recessed
screws of a Mac Plus (etc).

-tony

Re: Model M case screws

[Adam Sampson via cctalk]

Jules Richardson via cctalk  writes:

> Google suggests that they might be 7/32", but I'm not sure; that's
> less of a common size (vs. 3/16" or 1/4", say) - I'm not even sure I
> could find a driver like that around here.

Yes, they're 7/32", but in a narrow hole that means some bits won't
reach. Xcelite do a nut driver that fits nicely:
https://stuff.offog.org/model-m-screwdriver.jpg

I got mine in the UK a few years ago from Mouser, part numbers 578-997
for the driver and 578-99-1 for the handle.

-- 
Adam Sampson  

Re: Model M case screws

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 07/01/2017 09:28 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:

> Google suggests that they might be 7/32", but I'm not sure; that's less
> of a common size (vs. 3/16" or 1/4", say) - I'm not even sure I could
> find a driver like that around here.

That's exactly what I use--get a decent one; some of the Chinese imports
have too thick a "shell" to work in this application.  I think a 5.5mm
driver will also work, but I haven't tried it.

--Chuck

Model M case screws

[Jules Richardson via cctalk]

Can anyone tell me the size of the Model M keyboard case screws? The one I 
use on my main 'modern' PC could use a good clean, but the case recesses 
are a little too narrow for a typical socket to fit - I either need a nut 
driver, or to shave a little material off the outside of a socket to narrow 
it some.


Google suggests that they might be 7/32", but I'm not sure; that's less of 
a common size (vs. 3/16" or 1/4", say) - I'm not even sure I could find a 
driver like that around here.


cheers

Jules