Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
should work fine u got rca and vga on that card might not be colour but it should work
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
"should work fine u got rca and vga on that card might not be colour but it should work" Nope. Looks like a CGA card. It may also run in monochrome mode if you set the correct dip switches. The composite output can be used w a std TV set.
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
On Sun, 14 Aug 2016, Adrian Stoness wrote:
should work fine u got rca and vga on that card might not be colour but it
should work
??
What card is that?
The IBM 5150 was the PC.
The IBM 5151 was the IBm green screen "Monochrome" monitor. The card for
that ("Monichrome Display and Printer Card"), and the various clone MDA
cards, did NOT have RCA, and were NOT at composite video rates.
(18.43?KHz horizontal, 50Hz? vertical)
It had a DE9 for the monichrome monitor and a DB25 for printer ("Cenronics
compatible parallel")
Hercules' video card was an imitation of the MDP, with more RAM, and
monochrome 720x350 graphics.
On the other hand, the CGA card did have RCA composite video (close to
RS170), and "RGB" (DE9). About 15.75KHz?
It was NOT at the correct frequency for the 5151 monitor!
IBM did not even have sufficient protection in their circuits if you
plugged a monitor into the wrong card, or set the video card to
incompatible frequencies!
The IBM EGA card had TWO RCA jacks, but neither were composite output.
What is RCA and VGA??
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
On 08/14/2016 06:22 PM, Win Heagy wrote: > Does anyone have any info on this video card? I wasn't able to find > much. > > https://imgur.com/a/TjIzL > > The card came in a 5150, but whatever monitor they were using did > not come with the 5150. I'd like to see if it's possible to use this > card with a 5151. This looks to be your card: https://th99.bl4ckb0x.de/v/U-Z/50348.htm In which case, no, it can't be used with a 5151. Wrong scan frequencies, among other things. Monochrome cards should still be pretty common in the wild. One distinguishing characteristic is that they usually feature a DB-25F connector for a printer port. The exceptions being few, such as the do-both-CGA-and-MDA ATI Small Wonder. --Chuck
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
On 08/14/2016 08:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > What is RCA and VGA?? Didn't RCA make computers? Don't know who VGA was, though. Vertical Gizmo Authority?
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
My apologies for my previous post; I have not yet received the original post. Thank you, Matt, for having quoted it. It does, indeed look like an aftermarket CGA. The DE connector on there is 9 pin (see solder side), and is probably CGA RGB. (NOT VGA!!) The "real" OEM IBM CGA does not have that 4PST dip switch block. That MIGHT be significant. The "real" OEM IBM CGA also has a 4 pin berg connector, for use with an RF modulator (or the 5155 internal composite monitor), and a 6 pin connectoor for light pen. If that board IS CGA (15.75KHz?), then do NOT connect a 5151 to it! The 5151 is expecting MDA frequency, not CGA. If that board is CGA, you can connect the RCA to the composite (yellow) input of a TV. VCR, or other RS170 device. OTOH, it might be possible that that switch block might do various things, even permitting MDA frequencies? (The IBM EGA included a similar switch block) On Sun, 14 Aug 2016, Matt Patoray wrote: Looks to be a later 8 bit CGA card, non IBM. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 14, 2016, at 9:22 PM, Win Heagy wrote: Does anyone have any info on this video card? I wasn't able to find much. https://imgur.com/a/TjIzL The card came in a 5150, but whatever monitor they were using did not come with the 5150. I'd like to see if it's possible to use this card with a 5151. Thanks, Win
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
should work fine u got rca and vga on that card might not be colour but it > should work > This board is not likely to be VGA. The card says "CGA-IV", so it's likely a DE-9 RGB connector. An FCC ID search reveals it to be a Chinese product, from Yangtech Electric Co. Ltd.; the FCC action date is September 1986.
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
Looks to be a later 8 bit CGA card, non IBM. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 14, 2016, at 9:22 PM, Win Heagy wrote: > > Does anyone have any info on this video card? I wasn't able to find much. > > https://imgur.com/a/TjIzL > > The card came in a 5150, but whatever monitor they were using did not > come with the 5150. I'd like to see if it's possible to use this card > with a 5151. > > Thanks, > Win
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
That one has a lightpen connector, which his dorsn't. Not usually important, but it might have other differences, such as different functions for the switchrs. There were some MDA boards without printer. Plugging 5151 into CGA could damage the 5151. Even plugging it into EGA with wrong switch settings could. On Sun, 14 Aug 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: On 08/14/2016 06:22 PM, Win Heagy wrote: Does anyone have any info on this video card? I wasn't able to find much. https://imgur.com/a/TjIzL The card came in a 5150, but whatever monitor they were using did not come with the 5150. I'd like to see if it's possible to use this card with a 5151. This looks to be your card: https://th99.bl4ckb0x.de/v/U-Z/50348.htm In which case, no, it can't be used with a 5151. Wrong scan frequencies, among other things. Monochrome cards should still be pretty common in the wild. One distinguishing characteristic is that they usually feature a DB-25F connector for a printer port. The exceptions being few, such as the do-both-CGA-and-MDA ATI Small Wonder. --Chuck
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
On 08/14/2016 09:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > That one has a lightpen connector, which his dorsn't. Not usually > important, but it might have other differences, such as different > functions for the switchrs. Take another look--the one in the photo has the header in the same place as that in the cited drawing. Taiwanese makers were extremely, er, incestuous, back in the day. The other telling thing is that there's no crystal/XCO on the board. CGA cards, generally don't have one--they take their timebase from the 14.318 MHz ISA bus signal. MDA/MGA cards all have their own timebase (crystal/XCO). EGA cards may have several. --Chuck
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
This is a CGA clone. It can work with CGA and Hercules monitors/modes, and usually were switched by a program called MONO.COM. I Believe I have some boards like that. Possibly I have the manual and disk. 2016-08-15 1:53 GMT-03:00 Chuck Guzis : > On 08/14/2016 09:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > That one has a lightpen connector, which his dorsn't. Not usually > > important, but it might have other differences, such as different > > functions for the switchrs. > > Take another look--the one in the photo has the header in the same place > as that in the cited drawing. > > Taiwanese makers were extremely, er, incestuous, back in the day. > > The other telling thing is that there's no crystal/XCO on the board. > CGA cards, generally don't have one--they take their timebase from the > 14.318 MHz ISA bus signal. MDA/MGA cards all have their own timebase > (crystal/XCO). EGA cards may have several. > > > --Chuck >
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
That one has a lightpen connector, which his dorsn't. Not usually On Sun, 14 Aug 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: Take another look--the one in the photo has the header in the same place as that in the cited drawing. You're right. I only sae the resistor pack. That does look like the one. why the unnecessary switches? (CGA does mode switching in software, and enables simultaneous composite and RGB, hence the IBM vetsion dorsn't need switches)
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
sad when you think of all the cards that have been scrapped over the last 20 years for early PC Ed# In a message dated 8/14/2016 10:55:54 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ccl...@sydex.com writes: On 08/14/2016 10:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > why the unnecessary switches? (CGA does mode switching in software, > and enables simultaneous composite and RGB, hence the IBM vetsion > dorsn't need switches) I think that the switches mostly relate to output configurations; that is, they don't change the basic operation. For example, the "monochrome composite" is probably just luminance, blank and sync (VBS), whereas the "color composite" is the complete CVBS signal. I suspect that setting either of the two composite modes probably disables the output at the DE-9. It would be interesting to see what other combinations of switches produce something useful. Of course, this is all wild-hare speculation on my part, as I don't have anything like this card sitting in my hellbox. FWIW, Chuck
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
On 08/14/2016 10:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > why the unnecessary switches? (CGA does mode switching in software, > and enables simultaneous composite and RGB, hence the IBM vetsion > dorsn't need switches) I think that the switches mostly relate to output configurations; that is, they don't change the basic operation. For example, the "monochrome composite" is probably just luminance, blank and sync (VBS), whereas the "color composite" is the complete CVBS signal. I suspect that setting either of the two composite modes probably disables the output at the DE-9. It would be interesting to see what other combinations of switches produce something useful. Of course, this is all wild-hare speculation on my part, as I don't have anything like this card sitting in my hellbox. FWIW, Chuck
RE: 5150/5151 Video Card??
> My apologies for my previous post; I have not yet received the original > post. Thank you, Matt, for having quoted it. > > It does, indeed look like an aftermarket CGA. I assume the 'CGA' in the name in the silkscreen is relevant! > The DE connector on there is 9 pin (see solder side), and is probably CGA > RGB. (NOT VGA!!) It only has 16K RAM, a pair of 4416s so it's not EGA or VGA. BUT There were a lot of 3rd party cards that could be configured (DIP switches) to be either MDA (often hercules compatible graphics) or CGA. You had to use the right monitor, of course. A trace going to pin 7 of the DE9 is a clue (it's unused on the original CGA board, it's video on the MDA) but not always. Some CGA-only cards put the composite signal on pin 7. -tony
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
On Mon, 15 Aug 2016, Alexandre Souza wrote: This is a CGA clone. Apparently It can work with CGA [monitors] Presumably and Hercules monitors/modes, and really? connecting a "hercules" monitor, such as a 5151 to CGA can damage the monitor. usually were switched by a program called MONO.COM. such as: MOV AX, 0002h ; Set mode to CGA B&W Int 10h Int 20h MOV AX, 003h ; Set mode to CGA color Int 10h Int 20h MOV AX, 0007h ; Set mode to MDA Int 10h Int 20h They can be shortened a byte by using INT 3, instead of INT 20h, or lengthened with MOV AX 4C00h Int 21h. But, since each program is going to occupy a 512 byte sector, the difference won't matter. or using MODE.COM: MODE BW80 MODE CO80 MODE MONO I Believe I have some boards like that. Possibly I have the manual and disk. Does THIS particular board handle BOTH CGA and MDA frequencies? If not, telling him to connect his 5151 or "hercules" monitor, is going to cost him a monitor. If so, telling him to connect his 5151 or "hercules" monitor without the right switch settings, is going to cost him a monitor. 5151 and "hercules" (MDA) monitors do not like wrong frequencies. SERIOUSLY: connecting a 5151 or "hercules" monitor to the wrong signals can damage it.
RE: 5150/5151 Video Card??
> Does THIS particular board handle BOTH CGA and MDA frequencies? > If not, telling him to connect his 5151 or "hercules" monitor, is going to > cost him a monitor. > If so, telling him to connect his 5151 or "hercules" monitor without the > right switch settings, is going to cost him a monitor. > > 5151 and "hercules" (MDA) monitors do not like wrong frequencies. > > SERIOUSLY: connecting a 5151 or "hercules" monitor to the wrong signals > can damage it. That depends on the MDA/hercules monitor. The IBM5151 does not have a horizontal oscillator. It will attempt to run at whatever frequency you give it. Give it the wrong horizontal frequency and the horizontak output stage will not like it very much. Most other MDA type monitors were more conventional with an intenral horizontal oscillator that attempts to lock to the incoming sync signal. In any reasonable one, if the incoming frequency in way off, the oscilllator will not lock to it, it will remain running at a frequncy close enough to normal that there will be no damage. The common Zenith MDA monitor, the one with that well-known power supply [1] is like that, [1] The one that combines the efficiency of a linear with the reliability of a switcher. And which malfunctions if you replace the green power-on LED with a red one. Ask me if you have seriously never come across this. In any case it rarely costs you the monitor if you get it wrong. A horizontal output transistor, sure. But they are not that expensive. -tony
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
- Original Message - From: "tony duell" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 15, 2016 1:26 PM Subject: RE: 5150/5151 Video Card?? > ...The common Zenith MDA monitor, ... The one that combines the efficiency of > a linear with the reliability of a switcher. Double take, resulting in coffee in nasal cavity ... ;-)
RE: 5150/5151 Video Card??
On Mon, 15 Aug 2016, tony duell wrote: In any case it rarely costs you the monitor if you get it wrong. A horizontal output transistor, sure. But they are not that expensive. Yes, readily repairable, and therefore "cost a monitor" is an exaggeration. But, somebody who is still unaware of the problem, and blithely plugs anything in that will fit, without knowing what kind of card they are connecting to, might not have the basic expertise to fix it. For example, at the college, they purchased replacements and dumpstered every monitor that failed. (I am referring to the local community college, but I know of examples of the same at UC Berkeley!) I am pleased to hear that aftermarket competitors made appropriate changes to protect against that vulnerability. I just looked at Wikipedia, and found some amazing errors, such as statement that IBM mono came along much later than CGA, caling it MDA instead of MDP, that Hercules innovatively had a "Centronics port" (sic) because that was much faster than the serial printing with the IBM mono, that PCs HAD TO HAVE both displays, because "no business software would work on CGA", no mention of the "Hercules clones" that Jenkins had tantrums about, etc. I edited a few of them, but there is just too much misinformation.
RE: 5150/5151 Video Card??
> > ...The common Zenith MDA monitor, ... The one that combines the efficiency > > of a linear with the reliability of a switcher. > Double take, resulting in coffee in nasal cavity ... ;-) I am not joking. This PSU is a 'classic'. Let me describe the circuit. The monitor circuitry needs 12V DC. This powers the CRT heater, the small-signal circuits and the horizontal side of things. In the conventional way, other voltages are produced from the flyback transformer. So the PSU has to provide 12V DC from the mains. Here's how it does it. Mains comes in and is rectified/voltage doubled to get about 350V DC. Just like in a switcher. This feeds a chopper transsitor/transformer circuit. But there is NO regulation applied to that chopper. It free-runs, using an extra winding on the transformer to drive the base of said transistor. This circuit produces about 18V AC. It _is_ a switcher at this point, with the advantage that the transformer and secondary-side smoothing capacitors can be smaller than they would be if it was a mains-frequency circuit. On the other hand that chopper does fail! OK, we now have 18V or so AC from the chopper transformer. It is half-wave rectified and smoothed. It now feeds a _linear_ regulator circuit made of discrete transistors. Hence my comment about the efficiency of a linear. It is a linear PSU now. But there is another quirk up its sleeve. A linear regulator works by comparing the output voltage to a reference voltage and controlling the pass transistor appropriately. Conventionally that reference voltage comes from a zener diode. Not here. They used the forward voltage of the power-on indicator, a green LED, for this. OK, the forward voltage of an LED is approximately constant, and doing this saves a zener diode (a few pence/cents). Of course if you happen to replace that green LED with a red one (lower forward voltage), the PSU output voltage goes down too. -tony
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
On 08/15/2016 11:18 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I just looked at Wikipedia, and found some amazing errors, such as > statement that IBM mono came along much later than CGA, caling it > MDA instead of MDP, that Hercules innovatively had a "Centronics > port" (sic) because that was much faster than the serial printing > with the IBM mono, that PCs HAD TO HAVE both displays, because "no > business software would work on CGA", no mention of the "Hercules > clones" that Jenkins had tantrums about, etc. I edited a few of > them, but there is just too much misinformation. On matters of historical technical accuracy, I've pretty much given up on WikiP. Oh, it's still useful, but I find myself muttering to myself "Vass you dere, Shollie?" when reading some of the stuff. It doesn't really matter--in a couple of decades, we'll all be dead and the "historians" can write whatever they want without being challenged. --Chuck
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
On Mon, 15 Aug 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: On matters of historical technical accuracy, I've pretty much given up on WikiP. Oh, it's still useful, but I find myself muttering to myself "Vass you dere, Shollie?" when reading some of the stuff. It doesn't really matter--in a couple of decades, we'll all be dead and the "historians" can write whatever they want without being challenged. Than you for the words of wisdom. I have difficulty resisting correcting even minor errors of fact. It is distressing to me how badly history can get mangled over what seems to me to be a very short period of time. Admittedly, we all see different parts of the elephant, and some topics, such as early history of the internet will always suffer from incompatible perspectives. But, it's hard to see how somebody could think that Comdex originated as a successor to the West Coast Computer Faire, or that IBM Mono was a later development after CGA.
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
- Original Message - From: "tony duell" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 15, 2016 2:32 PM Subject: RE: 5150/5151 Video Card?? > > ...The common Zenith MDA monitor, ... The one that combines the efficiency > > of a linear with the reliability of a switcher. > Double take, resulting in coffee in nasal cavity ... ;-) I am not joking. - Well, linears are noted more for their weight and caloric output than efficiency while switchers seem to have sacrificed reliability for higher efficiency so I took it as a delightful bit of irony, like a car combining the safety of a Pinto with the graceful lines of an Edsel... Oh well, I got a chuckle out of it...
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
On 08/15/2016 10:22 PM, tony duell wrote: > Of course I was being ironic. The 'not joking' part refers to the > fact that it really is a switcher with a linear regulator. Which is not uncommon in multi-output switchers. Not at all unusual to see the main (e.g. 5V) output directly regulated, but secondary outputs handled by 78xx/79xx linear regulators. That's not to say that the secondary outputs can't be switch-regulated. The "simple switcher" ICs are well-suited to that application. --Chuck
RE: 5150/5151 Video Card??
> > > > ...The common Zenith MDA monitor, ... The one that combines the > > > > efficiency > > > > of a linear with the reliability of a switcher. > > > > Double take, resulting in coffee in nasal cavity ... ;-) > > I am not joking. > > - > > Well, linears are noted more for their weight and caloric output than > efficiency > while switchers seem to have sacrificed reliability for higher efficiency so I > took it as a delightful bit of irony, like a car combining the safety of a > Pinto > with the graceful lines of an Edsel... > Oh well, I got a chuckle out of it... Of course I was being ironic. The 'not joking' part refers to the fact that it really is a switcher with a linear regulator. The reverse (mains transformer feeding low-voltage switching regulators) was relatively common (think of the older PDP11 PSUs, for example). These are big and heavy (massive iron-core transformer) and not as efficient as a mains switch-mode PSU, but are more efficient than a linear regulator (obviously) and seem quite reliable. -tony
RE: 5150/5151 Video Card??
> > Of course I was being ironic. The 'not joking' part refers to the > > fact that it really is a switcher with a linear regulator. > > Which is not uncommon in multi-output switchers. Not at all unusual to > see the main (e.g. 5V) output directly regulated, but secondary outputs > handled by 78xx/79xx linear regulators. Of course. But the PSU in that Zenith monitor only has one output -- +12V. And there is no regulation feedback loop to the chopper stage. On multi-output switchers often the main out has a much higher power limit than the others. Perhaps 5V at 60A and +/-12V at a couple of amps In which case it is not unreasonable to use linear regulators for the latter, the power wasted is not that much. As an aside, there is at least one DEC printer (LA324 I think) where the main output from the SMPSU is the 36V one (that is the one that is sensed to regulate the chopper), used for the motors, printhead, etc. The 5V rail (used for the logic, of course) comes off a linear regulator. One to watch for... > That's not to say that the secondary outputs can't be switch-regulated. > The "simple switcher" ICs are well-suited to that application. You can of course do it with older technology too. The PDP11/44 PSU and the HP9845 PSU spring to mind. A lot of ICs, chopper transistors, etc in there. -tony
Re: 5150/5151 Video Card??
On 08/16/2016 06:53 AM, tony duell wrote: > You can of course do it with older technology too. The PDP11/44 PSU > and the HP9845 PSU spring to mind. A lot of ICs, chopper transistors, > etc in there. Sure, it's possible to use the veneered-and-generated LM723 as an element of either a linear or switching regulator. Part of the original app notes for the thing, IIRC. --Chuck
