Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

I spent a bit of time on this yesterday. I have four QT242s (all were NOS but 
two had broken plastic disk guides). It turns out that the only drive that 
works is one of the ones with broken plastic. So, I did a little swapping, 
connected it to my PC/AT and I now have MS-DOS 6.22 on an 8” floppy. 

Now, on to imaging. I located my Catweasel card – a CW ISA model. I also 
downloaded CW2DMK from Tim Mann so I want to play with that tonight. Even 
though the image format isn’t what I’d prefer, at least I want to try to image 
and re-create the MSDOS disk just to see if it all works.

I would still like to find a spare 8” drive of some sort – time to troll ePay 
or maybe if someone on-list has a decent spare I can buy, please contact me 
separately.

More to come – still lots of work to do on the Tarbell controller.

Rich
 
--
Rich Cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
 

On 8/10/17, 1:00 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk" 
 wrote:

www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55277-Selecting-an-8-quot-floppy-drive

for someone else's opinion of the Qume PsOS

On 8/10/17 9:57 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 8/10/17 9:25 AM, camiel.vanderhoeven--- via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> My workhorse 8" drives are some Ye-Data half-height ones. I still have 
about a dozen of them as NOS.
> 
> Glad they work out for you. Fairlight people like them, so I've been 
giving them away to them.
> I wont' try to recover anything I care about on those.
> 
> 

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

So based on this entire thread I should probably hunt down some Shugart 850s to 
be safe. 

Rich

Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail

On Friday, August 11, 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk  
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, camiel.vanderhoeven--- via cctalk wrote:
> My workhorse 8" drives are some Ye-Data half-height ones. I still have about 
> a dozen of them as NOS. I believe they were made in 1993.

If you mean the Y-E DATA YD-180, well, they are QumeTrack 242 ;-)

Christian

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, camiel.vanderhoeven--- via cctalk wrote:
My workhorse 8" drives are some Ye-Data half-height ones. I still have about 
a dozen of them as NOS. I believe they were made in 1993.


If you mean the Y-E DATA YD-180, well, they are QumeTrack 242 ;-)

Christian

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[camiel.vanderhoeven--- via cctalk]

Quoting Al Kossow via cctalk :


On 8/10/17 9:25 AM, camiel.vanderhoeven--- via cctalk wrote:

My workhorse 8" drives are some Ye-Data half-height ones. I still  
have about a dozen of them as NOS.


Glad they work out for you. Fairlight people like them, so I've been  
giving them away to them.

I wont' try to recover anything I care about on those.


They've served me well so far. Is there as particular problem with  
these that I should be aware of?

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?55277-Selecting-an-8-quot-floppy-drive

for someone else's opinion of the Qume PsOS

On 8/10/17 9:57 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 8/10/17 9:25 AM, camiel.vanderhoeven--- via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> My workhorse 8" drives are some Ye-Data half-height ones. I still have about 
>> a dozen of them as NOS.
> 
> Glad they work out for you. Fairlight people like them, so I've been giving 
> them away to them.
> I wont' try to recover anything I care about on those.
> 
> 

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 8/10/17 9:25 AM, camiel.vanderhoeven--- via cctalk wrote:

> My workhorse 8" drives are some Ye-Data half-height ones. I still have about 
> a dozen of them as NOS.

Glad they work out for you. Fairlight people like them, so I've been giving 
them away to them.
I wont' try to recover anything I care about on those.

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[camiel.vanderhoeven--- via cctalk]

Quoting Chuck Guzis via cctalk :


On 08/10/2017 01:29 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:


That really depends on the drive. Ok, I think the Qume is "smart"
enough to inhibit any write to side 1 on a SS media. But OTOH, many
other drives are just happy doing anything that you request (e.g. the
BASF drives I also use).


Well, I'll add that the Qume drives aren't my favorites--my workhorse
drives are Siemens FDD-200.  Really well-built units with lots of jumper
options.

The Qume 842s that I use are as backups.   In general, I don't care for
half-height 8" units of any manufacture.  Like the slimline 5.25" and
3.5" drives, they don't seem to hold up as well as their larger relatives.


My workhorse 8" drives are some Ye-Data half-height ones. I still have  
about a dozen of them as NOS. I believe they were made in 1993.


Camiel

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 08/10/2017 01:29 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:

> That really depends on the drive. Ok, I think the Qume is "smart"
> enough to inhibit any write to side 1 on a SS media. But OTOH, many
> other drives are just happy doing anything that you request (e.g. the
> BASF drives I also use).

Well, I'll add that the Qume drives aren't my favorites--my workhorse
drives are Siemens FDD-200.  Really well-built units with lots of jumper
options.

The Qume 842s that I use are as backups.   In general, I don't care for
half-height 8" units of any manufacture.  Like the slimline 5.25" and
3.5" drives, they don't seem to hold up as well as their larger relatives.

--Chuck

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 8/10/17 1:29 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> I'll try again--it doesn't matter if the Qume 242 (I've got one)

I have a pretty strong dislike for the Qume drives, the 242 in particular
seems to like to eat the top side of media.

The design of the head actuator makes the heads
really difficult to clean.

I switched back to a SA 851, took off the plastic cover over the heads, and
cleaning the heads is easy.

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Richard Cini wrote:

Will do. These 242 drives are NOS and I have several. I'll swap them too.


One more note about QumeTrack 242 drives:
I have the problem that the head load is very sticky (on both of my 
drives). I had to clean and oil it to make it working again. But still, if 
the drive is unused for a couple of days, it needs some tries before it 
will correctly load the heads.


Christian

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Chuck Guzis wrote:

I'll try again--it doesn't matter if the Qume 242 (I've got one) is a
DSDD drive if you're using SS media.  Peek inside the drive and you'll
see that there are *two* index sensors--one for single-sided and the
other for double-sided media.  Unless you've got a hole punch handy, you
can't format single-sided media to use both sides.


That really depends on the drive. Ok, I think the Qume is "smart" enough 
to inhibit any write to side 1 on a SS media. But OTOH, many other drives 
are just happy doing anything that you request (e.g. the BASF drives I 
also use).


Oh BTW, speaking of Qume 242: this is the drive I have currently attached 
to my PC (running Linux) and that I use with my TI development board for 
doing flux level images. This drive *can't* handle hard sectored disks!

Unless... (yeah, there's a way) you do the following:
- remove jumper C (HEAD LOAD input)
- install jumper D (IN USE input)
- connect the left pin of jumper C (HEAD LOAD input) to the top pin of
  jumper HA (going to pin 10 of IC 2G)
You need to issue DRIVE SELECT *and* HEAD LOAD *and* IN USE to access the 
drive.


Christian

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

Mike -- 

I gave Bill Degnan the backstory in another thread but in short, I'm working on 
restoring VCF's Seattle Gazelle. It uses a DSDD drive system, although the 
original drives are still at Infoage. I have the original Seattle disks. The 
system was shelved in the mid-1990's. 

I have the system booting to the monitor (after performing all of the usual 
power supply work) but the main task is getting the disks imaged before getting 
everything booting using the original hardware. 

I have a PC/AT with an Adaptec HD/floppy card that per Dave should work for all 
density combinations. It indeed passes with a Teac 1.2Mb drive. 

So the plan is to connect an 8" drive to it and use it as an "imaging machine". 
So yes, to read and write 8" disks. 

The MSDOS part was just a simple way to test that the controller and drive 
worked as expected before working on original Seattle disks that aren't 
replaceable. There is MS Pascal, Norton Utilities, SCP-DOS and two versions of 
MSDOS (1.25 and 2.0). There are also some disks that may have code/sources on 
them. 

Rich

Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017, Mike Stein via cctech  
wrote:


- Original Message - 
From: "Richard Cini via cctech" 
To: "Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" 
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2017 8:54 PM
Subject: Disk imaging with IMD - question


Guys –

I’m working on a restoration project for VCF that requires imaging 8” disks 
(both SSSD and DSDD, mostly for the Tarbell controller) but I’m having trouble 
with it reading disks. So, I wanted to run through what I’ve done and see if 
I’m missing anything. 

It took me a while to hunt down a controller that would work with the PC/AT I 
have on the bench and that would pass all of the testfdc tests. The floppy 
drives are both 1.2MB drives. I located an Adaptec AHA-1522F. Testfdc passes.

Next, I connected my 8” drive (a QumeTrak 242) to the controller using the 8” 
floppy interface adapter from DBit. On reboot, the BIOS seeks the drive no 
problem so I would say that the physical interface works. 

I tried formatting an 8” DSDD disk for MSDOS and I can’t get that to work (not 
sure why since the 8” drive should be similar to the 1.2MB). Rerunning the 
testfdc program fails all tests with the 8”, and it doesn’t successfully read 
any of the non-critical sample disks I have.

Not sure this is enough for someone to go on, but I thought I’d throw it out 
there. 

As a separate question, what kind of disk imaging setups are people using for 
8” disks? 

Thanks!
-
Hi Rich,

I'm not clear on what you're trying to do; archive 8" disks on a PC, create 8" 
disks on a PC, or both? 

Where does MS-DOS format come in? What system uses a Tarbell controller to 
read/write MS-DOS disks?

Probably not relevant for you but since you asked, FWIW I use a Cromemco system 
to DD/TAR/FTAR 8" disks to a file and then either copy that to a PC over a 
serial connection or copy it to a 3.5" or 5.25" HD disk that both the Cromemco 
and the PC can read & write.

m



Rich



--

Rich Cini

http://www.classiccmp.org/cini

http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 08/09/2017 03:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Yes.
> It is not clear whether the issue is with the disks, or with the
> hardware setup.

Again, maybe I'm reading too much into the comments, but I thought that
Rich had formatted a floppy using IMD and verified using the Analyze
function.

If IMD formats successfully, you can also run the "Test RPM" function,
which uses any readable header on a track (FM or MFM) to time the
rotation speed.   If IMD can't see any headers, it won't do the RPM test.

--Chuck

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

Will do. These 242 drives are NOS and I have several. I'll swap them too. 

Lots to do this weekend!

Rich

Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote:

There's also the possibility that the drive alignment is so far out of
whack that you're not seeing the data on the SCP disks. This is
unlikely in drives that haven't been diddled with, but unless you bought
the drive NOS, you don't know that.

Grab a known-good 8" floppy--the format doesn't really matter, as long
as it's fairly IBM 3740 compliant (Single-side, single-density, 128 byte
FM sectors). An RX01 floppy is good for that. See what IMD shows.

--Chuck

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

I think I have a Cromemco 16FDC laying around. Might be able to put a quick 
S100 Z80 system together. 

Rich

Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017, Fred Cisin  wrote:

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, rich.c...@verizon.net wrote:
> Hmmm. I might have. CW in my storage area. Good idea. I don't know the 
> version of if I have the software. Let me look later. Great idea.

alternatively, do you have ANY computer with 8" drive and WD 179x 
controller?

It's not too big a deal to write code to read a track into RAM, and then 
look at it.

I used to play with TRAKCESS on TRS-80

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

There's also the possibility that the drive alignment is so far out of
whack that you're not seeing the data on the SCP disks.   This is
unlikely in drives that haven't been diddled with, but unless you bought
the drive NOS, you don't know that.


While radial alignment would get in the way of reading those disks, it 
shouldn't affect his attempts to format a disk




Grab a known-good 8" floppy--the format doesn't really matter, as long
as it's fairly IBM 3740 compliant (Single-side, single-density, 128 byte
FM sectors).  An RX01 floppy is good for that.  See what IMD shows.


Yes.
It is not clear whether the issue is with the disks, or with the hardware 
setup.

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

There's also the possibility that the drive alignment is so far out of
whack that you're not seeing the data on the SCP disks.   This is
unlikely in drives that haven't been diddled with, but unless you bought
the drive NOS, you don't know that.

Grab a known-good 8" floppy--the format doesn't really matter, as long
as it's fairly IBM 3740 compliant (Single-side, single-density, 128 byte
FM sectors).  An RX01 floppy is good for that.  See what IMD shows.

--Chuck

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, rich.c...@verizon.net wrote:
Hmmm. I might have. CW in my storage area. Good idea. I don't know the 
version of if I have the software. Let me look later. Great idea.


alternatively, do you have ANY computer with 8" drive and WD 179x 
controller?


It's not too big a deal to write code to read a track into RAM, and then 
look at it.


I used to play with TRAKCESS on TRS-80

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 08/09/2017 01:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> That is SO compatible with the NEC 765 chips that I'm going to CALL it
> an NEC chip.
> I wonder if has the same "flash-blind" behavior following index?
> I'll go out on a limb saying that I think that it will NOT give you any
> chaange from using an NEC chip made by NEC or generic chinese, so long
> as they pass Dave's TESTFDC program(s)

The DP8473 is a classic example of a better-than-NEC controller.  It'll
even handle 128-byte MFM sectors, something the 765 fails miserably on.

Handy for those old 30-sector Superbrain 5.25" floppies...

--Chuck

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

Hmmm. I might have. CW in my storage area. Good idea. I don't know the version 
of if I have the software. Let me look later. Great idea. 

Rich

Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017, Fred Cisin  wrote:

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> Interesting reading here under disk formats:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS
> Sounds like there were two Tarbell controllers, single and double 
> density but both single-sided ?

NO
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS#Disk_formats
includes a 1232K DSDD 8" format, with Tarbell 1791/1793

> Also sounds like the FAT12 disk formats were not quite MS-DOS compatible...

Well, the LAST ones, . . . 
even then, "modern" MS-DOS handles a VERY limited repertoire of the FAT12 
MS-DOS formats.


Do you have access to a flux-transition board (CP, Cat-weasel,Kryoflux, 
etc.)?

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

Interesting reading here under disk formats:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS
Sounds like there were two Tarbell controllers, single and double 
density but both single-sided ?


NO
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS#Disk_formats
includes a 1232K DSDD 8" format, with Tarbell 1791/1793


Also sounds like the FAT12 disk formats were not quite MS-DOS compatible...


Well, the LAST ones, . . . 
even then, "modern" MS-DOS handles a VERY limited repertoire of the FAT12 
MS-DOS formats.



Do you have access to a flux-transition board (CP, Cat-weasel,Kryoflux, 
etc.)?

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 08/09/2017 01:29 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
> I don't have the screen print handy but if you look on Dave Dunfield's site 
> under Disk/Software he has a controller registry. I'm using the Adaptec 
> AHA-1522A which uses the National DP8437AV chip. 

That should work with most common WD1793 formats.

However, there's always the odd chance that there's something really
strange about these disks.  I assume that the IMD "analyze" function
gives no results either.

This is where I'd probably pull out the Catweasel and see what's going on.

--Chuck

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
Thanks Fred. The Adaptec controller I'm using has a NatSemi controller 
and passes all IMD tests. I have an SBC floating around with a WD37xx 
chip so maybe I'll try that this weekend.


That is SO compatible with the NEC 765 chips that I'm going to CALL it an 
NEC chip.

I wonder if has the same "flash-blind" behavior following index?
I'll go out on a limb saying that I think that it will NOT give you any 
chaange from using an NEC chip made by NEC or generic chinese, so long as 
they pass Dave's TESTFDC program(s)



I don't think that any of the Gazelle formats described in:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS#Disk_formats
should provide any significant problems for a FM capable NEC chip.
BUT, I could  be wrong, and the 1793 is CAPABLE of doing things that NEC 
can't tolerate.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

I don't have the screen print handy but if you look on Dave Dunfield's site 
under Disk/Software he has a controller registry. I'm using the Adaptec 
AHA-1522A which uses the National DP8437AV chip. 

Rich

Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote:

On 08/09/2017 12:41 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> My naming convention is flawed. I think that at one point Western
> Digital made an "NEC compatible" controller, that isn't what I call
> "wd-style"

Yup, the WD37C65. Anyone need any? I've got a tubeful that I'm never
going to use. Used in the 8-bit ISA WD1002A-FOX controller board--and
a number of other similar ones, such as the Sysgen Omnibridge.

Downside of this particular chip is that it uses two crystals (an 8MHz
and a 9.6MHz one), unlike later "PC-AT controller on a chip" ICs, that
generally used either a single 24 or 48 MHz crystal.

Patterned, as Fred said, after the NEC uPD765/Inel 8272 and very unlike
the WD 17xx and 27xx chips.

Rich, you said your setup passed fdtest. Specifically, what portions of
it? It's a rare FDC that will pass all of the tests.

--Chuck

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

Thanks Fred. The Adaptec controller I'm using has a NatSemi controller and 
passes all IMD tests. I have an SBC floating around with a WD37xx chip so maybe 
I'll try that this weekend. 

Rich

Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
wrote:

> If you can use IMD to format both FM and MFM at 500Kbps on your 242--and
> "Analyze" reads the format okay, your SCP disks aren't probably standard
> IBM 3740 or System/3 type diskettes. They could be in a proprietary
> recording format, such as Intel MMFM or Futuredata GCR.

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
> Thanks Chuck. The Gazelle uses the Tarbell DD controller which uses a 
> 1793 which I believe is 3742 and s/34 compatible.

The [WD] 1793 is normally used for "standard" FM and MFM formats
(What I call "IBM/WD Stle formats", and that I think Chuck called "IMD 
formats")

BUT, it could be used for some OTHER formats that the NEC-style FDC can't 
handle, since unlike the NEC-style chips, the WD-style chips have the 
capability of a "track write"/"track read", with seriously different 
sector header structures.
Not enough diffeernt to do GCR, but maybe enough to do Amiga?

The NEC can do a multi-sector read/write, but that isn't the same, and it 
can't do ANYTHING other than "IBM/WD-style" formats.

PC normally uses an NEC-style controller, and that is the only type that 
the BIOS supports.
At one point, there was an after-market WD-style controller with device 
driver support, but the added capabilities weren't enough to make it a 
market success.
If anybody has one, it has the capability of reading a number of disks 
that the NEC can't.


My naming convention is flawed. I think that at one point Western Digital 
made an "NEC compatible" controller, that isn't what I call "wd-style"


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

There's a way to make the disk more compatible by changing the media ID byte, 
but I don't even need that right now. 

I'd have to pull the manual but I believe the TDD is one or two sided. 

Rich

Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017, Mike Stein <mhs.st...@gmail.com> wrote:

Interesting reading here under disk formats:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS

Sounds like there were two Tarbell controllers, single and double density but 
both single-sided ?

Also sounds like the FAT12 disk formats were not quite MS-DOS compatible...

m

- Original Message - 
From: "Richard Cini via cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
To: <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2017 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question


> Thanks Chuck. The Gazelle uses the Tarbell DD controller which uses a 1793 
> which I believe is 3742 and s/34 compatible. 
> 
> Rich
> 
> Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail
> 
>
On Wednesday, August 9, 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> 
wrote:
> 
> On 08/09/2017 10:57 AM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> "DON'T ASSUME..." AS THEY SAY ON TV. I'M OK WITH THE ADDITIONAL CLARITY. 
>> SINCE YOU HAVE A WORKING 242, WOULD YOU MIND CONFIRMING THE JUMPER SETTINGS 
>> FOR ME? JUST TRYING TO ELIMINATE AS MANY POTENTIAL ERROR POINTS. 
> 
> I had a look and a mental fart. I have the 842--the full-height model.
> I suspect that the jumpers are completely different.
> 
> If you can use IMD to format both FM and MFM at 500Kbps on your 242--and
> "Analyze" reads the format okay, your SCP disks aren't probably standard
> IBM 3740 or System/3 type diskettes. They could be in a proprietary
> recording format, such as Intel MMFM or Futuredata GCR.
> 
> --Chuck
> 
>

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 08/09/2017 12:41 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> My naming convention is flawed.  I think that at one point Western
> Digital made an "NEC compatible" controller, that isn't what I call
> "wd-style"

Yup, the WD37C65.  Anyone need any?  I've got a tubeful that I'm never
going to use.   Used in the 8-bit ISA WD1002A-FOX controller board--and
a number of other similar ones, such as the Sysgen Omnibridge.

Downside of this particular chip is that it uses two crystals (an 8MHz
and a 9.6MHz one), unlike later "PC-AT controller on a chip" ICs, that
generally used either a single 24 or 48 MHz crystal.

Patterned, as Fred said, after the NEC uPD765/Inel 8272 and very unlike
the WD 17xx and 27xx chips.

Rich, you said your setup passed fdtest.  Specifically, what portions of
it?  It's a rare FDC that will pass all of the tests.

--Chuck

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:

Interesting reading here under disk formats:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS
Sounds like there were two Tarbell controllers, single and double 
density but both single-sided ?

Also sounds like the FAT12 disk formats were not quite MS-DOS compatible...


There are also, of course MANY MS-DOS formats that are not PC-DOS 
compatible, nor compatible with "modern" MS-DOS.


Some are hardware incompatible, such as Sirius/Victor 9000.

Some are not recognized by "modern" MS-DOS, but nevertheless are 
straight-forward to read/write with IMD, XenoCopy, 22Disk, etc.
Those range from ones with different sector sizes, to ones that are ALMOST 
PC-DOS, but with different number of DIRectory sectors, etc.

HP
Atari ST
Gavilan
Canon
NEC
etc.

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

If you can use IMD to format both FM and MFM at 500Kbps on your 242--and
"Analyze" reads the format okay, your SCP disks aren't probably standard
IBM 3740 or System/3 type diskettes. They could be in a proprietary
recording format, such as Intel MMFM or Futuredata GCR.


On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
Thanks Chuck. The Gazelle uses the Tarbell DD controller which uses a 
1793 which I believe is 3742 and s/34 compatible.


The [WD] 1793 is normally used for "standard" FM and MFM formats
(What I call "IBM/WD Stle formats", and that I think Chuck called "IMD 
formats")


BUT, it could be used for some OTHER formats that the NEC-style FDC can't 
handle, since unlike the NEC-style chips, the WD-style chips have the 
capability of a "track write"/"track read", with seriously different 
sector header structures.

Not enough diffeernt to do GCR, but maybe enough to do Amiga?

The NEC can do a multi-sector read/write, but that isn't the same, and it 
can't do ANYTHING other than "IBM/WD-style" formats.


PC normally uses an NEC-style controller, and that is the only type that 
the BIOS supports.
At one point, there was an after-market WD-style controller with device 
driver support, but the added capabilities weren't enough to make it a 
market success.
If anybody has one, it has the capability of reading a number of disks 
that the NEC can't.



My naming convention is flawed.  I think that at one point Western Digital 
made an "NEC compatible" controller, that isn't what I call "wd-style"



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Mike Stein via cctalk]

Interesting reading here under disk formats:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS

Sounds like there were two Tarbell controllers, single and double density but 
both single-sided ?

Also sounds like the FAT12 disk formats were not quite MS-DOS compatible...

m

- Original Message - 
From: "Richard Cini via cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
To: <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2017 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question


> Thanks Chuck. The Gazelle uses the Tarbell DD controller which uses a 1793 
> which I believe is 3742 and s/34 compatible. 
> 
> Rich
> 
> Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail
> 
> On Wednesday, August 9, 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org> 
> wrote:
> 
> On 08/09/2017 10:57 AM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> "DON'T ASSUME..." AS THEY SAY ON TV. I'M OK WITH THE ADDITIONAL CLARITY. 
>> SINCE YOU HAVE A WORKING 242, WOULD YOU MIND CONFIRMING THE JUMPER SETTINGS 
>> FOR ME? JUST TRYING TO ELIMINATE AS MANY POTENTIAL ERROR POINTS. 
> 
> I had a look and a mental fart. I have the 842--the full-height model.
> I suspect that the jumpers are completely different.
> 
> If you can use IMD to format both FM and MFM at 500Kbps on your 242--and
> "Analyze" reads the format okay, your SCP disks aren't probably standard
> IBM 3740 or System/3 type diskettes. They could be in a proprietary
> recording format, such as Intel MMFM or Futuredata GCR.
> 
> --Chuck
> 
>

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

Thanks Chuck. The Gazelle uses the Tarbell DD controller which uses a 1793 
which I believe is 3742 and s/34 compatible. 

Rich

Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote:

On 08/09/2017 10:57 AM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:

> "DON'T ASSUME..." AS THEY SAY ON TV. I'M OK WITH THE ADDITIONAL CLARITY. 
> SINCE YOU HAVE A WORKING 242, WOULD YOU MIND CONFIRMING THE JUMPER SETTINGS 
> FOR ME? JUST TRYING TO ELIMINATE AS MANY POTENTIAL ERROR POINTS. 

I had a look and a mental fart. I have the 842--the full-height model.
I suspect that the jumpers are completely different.

If you can use IMD to format both FM and MFM at 500Kbps on your 242--and
"Analyze" reads the format okay, your SCP disks aren't probably standard
IBM 3740 or System/3 type diskettes. They could be in a proprietary
recording format, such as Intel MMFM or Futuredata GCR.

--Chuck

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 08/09/2017 10:57 AM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:

> "DON'T ASSUME..." AS THEY SAY ON TV. I'M OK WITH THE ADDITIONAL CLARITY. 
> SINCE YOU HAVE A WORKING 242, WOULD YOU MIND CONFIRMING THE JUMPER SETTINGS 
> FOR ME? JUST TRYING TO ELIMINATE AS MANY POTENTIAL ERROR POINTS. 

I had a look and a mental fart.  I have the 842--the full-height model.
I suspect that the jumpers are completely different.

If you can use IMD to format both FM and MFM at 500Kbps on your 242--and
"Analyze" reads the format okay, your SCP disks aren't probably standard
IBM 3740 or System/3 type diskettes.  They could be in a proprietary
recording format, such as Intel MMFM or Futuredata GCR.

--Chuck

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

See below. Hopefully inline works. I'm not shouting, just using caps. 

Rich

Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote:

On 08/09/2017 09:52 AM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
> It's funny -- I didn't see the original reply from Bill to this
> message.
> 
> I am aware of the track differences and I thought Dos would format
> it but just slam the head for the last three tracks. No such luck. It
> actually complains about the disk from the beginning.
> 
> The Qume 242 is a DSDD drive in case that was asked in the original
> thread, and should work in this situation.


I'll try again--it doesn't matter if the Qume 242 (I've got one) is a
DSDD drive if you're using SS media. Peek inside the drive and you'll
see that there are *two* index sensors--one for single-sided and the
other for double-sided media. Unless you've got a hole punch handy, you
can't format single-sided media to use both sides.

YES I KNOW. I HAVE BOTH KINDS OF MEDIA. RIGHT NOW USING 3M DSDD MEDIA. 

Okay, a DOS format is more than a simple IMD-type format, which does
little more than instruct the FDC to write a bunch of E5-filled sectors
and headers.

OK, DIDNT KNOW THAT. 

A DOS format also writes a boot sector, FAT and root directory. If most
late versions of DOS don't see a valid boot sector, you'll get a
"General Failure" error. If you use IMD to format the disk, use the
"Analyze" option to verify what you've got.

UNDERSTAND WHAT DOS WRITES. I WILL SEE WHAT ACTUALLY GETS WRITTEN. USING 
ANALYZE. 

INTERESTINGLY IMD CLAIMS NOT TO BE ABLE TO READ ONE OF THE DISKS THATS TO BE 
IMAGED -- AN 8" MDSOS 2.0 DISK FROM A GAZELLE. I WOULD CONSIDER THE DISKS IN AN 
UNKNOWN CONDITION. CHICKEN AND EGG. THESE ARE ORIGINAL SCP DISKS SO I DONT WANT 
TO EXPERIMENT MUCH ON THEM. 

I hope I've been clear--lately, I tend to assume too much.

"DON'T ASSUME..." AS THEY SAY ON TV. I'M OK WITH THE ADDITIONAL CLARITY. SINCE 
YOU HAVE A WORKING 242, WOULD YOU MIND CONFIRMING THE JUMPER SETTINGS FOR ME? 
JUST TRYING TO ELIMINATE AS MANY POTENTIAL ERROR POINTS. 

Thanks all. 

--Chuck

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 08/09/2017 09:52 AM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
> It's funny -- I didn't see the original reply from Bill to this
> message.
> 
> I am aware of  the track differences and I thought Dos would format
> it but just slam the head for the last three tracks. No such luck. It
> actually complains about the disk from the beginning.
> 
> The Qume 242 is a DSDD drive in case that was asked in the original
> thread, and should work in this situation.


I'll try again--it doesn't matter if the Qume 242 (I've got one) is a
DSDD drive if you're using SS media.  Peek inside the drive and you'll
see that there are *two* index sensors--one for single-sided and the
other for double-sided media.  Unless you've got a hole punch handy, you
can't format single-sided media to use both sides.

Okay, a DOS format is more than a simple IMD-type format, which does
little more than instruct the FDC to write a bunch of E5-filled sectors
and headers.

A DOS format also writes a boot sector, FAT and root directory.  If most
late versions of DOS don't see a valid boot sector, you'll get a
"General Failure" error.   If you use IMD to format the disk, use the
"Analyze" option to verify what you've got.

I hope I've been clear--lately, I tend to assume too much.

--Chuck

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

Bill -- the drive and disks are double-sided double density. Are you saying 
that's quad density?

I may try a different host setup again. I have five different computers that 
passed the testfdc program with varying levels of success, although none with 
single-density. 

Rich

Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017, william degnan  wrote:

NOTE - I was able to make a bootable 8" DOS 6.22 disk even though it slammed 
the last three tracks, on my imaging computer.  The computer thought it was 
writing to a 1.2M 5 1/4 disk.

BUT you're saying a quad density SS disk.  I never tried that and if you say it 
does not work then I can't dispute that without trying it myself.

BIll

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk 
 wrote:
It's funny -- I didn't see the original reply from Bill to this message.

I am aware of  the track differences and I thought Dos would format it but just 
slam the head for the last three tracks. No such luck. It actually complains 
about the disk from the beginning.

The Qume 242 is a DSDD drive in case that was asked in the original thread, and 
should work in this situation.

I tried to format a disk with both IMD and NFORMAT (utility I downloaded) and 
neither products a disk format that DOS likes. I'm sure it's my selection of 
parameters more so than the program itself.



Rich

Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote:

On 08/09/2017 01:41 AM, william degnan wrote:

> How about booting into dos and just formatting a disk that way?

Go back and read what I wrote, Bill. If single-sided media is being
used, DOS formatting will fail as there is no single-sided high-density
format available.

Of course, if double-sided media is used, DOS formatting as a 1.2MB DOS
disk should work--up to track 76. Note that 8" drives are 77
track/cylinder, not 80, as the 5.25" drives are.

IMD can handle the issues quite readily, as its formatting facility will
do whatever you tell it to do.

--Chuck

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[william degnan via cctalk]

NOTE - I was able to make a bootable 8" DOS 6.22 disk even though it
slammed the last three tracks, on my imaging computer.  The computer
thought it was writing to a 1.2M 5 1/4 disk.

BUT you're saying a quad density SS disk.  I never tried that and if you
say it does not work then I can't dispute that without trying it myself.

BIll

On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> It's funny -- I didn't see the original reply from Bill to this message.
>
> I am aware of  the track differences and I thought Dos would format it but
> just slam the head for the last three tracks. No such luck. It actually
> complains about the disk from the beginning.
>
> The Qume 242 is a DSDD drive in case that was asked in the original
> thread, and should work in this situation.
>
> I tried to format a disk with both IMD and NFORMAT (utility I downloaded)
> and neither products a disk format that DOS likes. I'm sure it's my
> selection of parameters more so than the program itself.
>
>
>
> Rich
>
> Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail
>
> On Wednesday, August 9, 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On 08/09/2017 01:41 AM, william degnan wrote:
>
> > How about booting into dos and just formatting a disk that way?
>
> Go back and read what I wrote, Bill. If single-sided media is being
> used, DOS formatting will fail as there is no single-sided high-density
> format available.
>
> Of course, if double-sided media is used, DOS formatting as a 1.2MB DOS
> disk should work--up to track 76. Note that 8" drives are 77
> track/cylinder, not 80, as the 5.25" drives are.
>
> IMD can handle the issues quite readily, as its formatting facility will
> do whatever you tell it to do.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Richard Cini via cctalk]

It's funny -- I didn't see the original reply from Bill to this message. 

I am aware of  the track differences and I thought Dos would format it but just 
slam the head for the last three tracks. No such luck. It actually complains 
about the disk from the beginning. 

The Qume 242 is a DSDD drive in case that was asked in the original thread, and 
should work in this situation. 

I tried to format a disk with both IMD and NFORMAT (utility I downloaded) and 
neither products a disk format that DOS likes. I'm sure it's my selection of 
parameters more so than the program itself. 



Rich

Sent from Verizon/AOL Mobile Mail

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote:

On 08/09/2017 01:41 AM, william degnan wrote:

> How about booting into dos and just formatting a disk that way? 

Go back and read what I wrote, Bill. If single-sided media is being
used, DOS formatting will fail as there is no single-sided high-density
format available.

Of course, if double-sided media is used, DOS formatting as a 1.2MB DOS
disk should work--up to track 76. Note that 8" drives are 77
track/cylinder, not 80, as the 5.25" drives are.

IMD can handle the issues quite readily, as its formatting facility will
do whatever you tell it to do.

--Chuck

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 08/09/2017 01:41 AM, william degnan wrote:

> How about booting into dos and just formatting a disk that way?  

Go back and read what I wrote, Bill.   If single-sided media is being
used, DOS formatting will fail as there is no single-sided high-density
format available.

Of course, if double-sided media is used, DOS formatting as a 1.2MB DOS
disk should work--up to track 76.   Note that 8" drives are 77
track/cylinder, not 80, as the 5.25" drives are.

IMD can handle the issues quite readily, as its formatting facility will
do whatever you tell it to do.

--Chuck

Re: Disk imaging with IMD - question

[william degnan via cctalk]

On Aug 9, 2017 1:34 AM, "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" 
wrote:
>
> Quick question, Rich--what kind of media are you using to test by
> formatting to 1.2MB?
>
> If they're SS media (as indicated by the position of the index
> aperture), your drive will probably barf if you try to access the disk
> as double-sided.   We've all been spoiled by 5.25" and 3.5" media which
> doesn't differentiate between single- or double-sided.
>
> Try using the format capability in IMD to test things.
>
> --Chuck

How about booting into dos and just formatting a disk that way?