Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[william degnan]

On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooi...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
>
> Van: Guy Sotomayor Jr<mailto:g...@shiresoft.com>
> Verzonden: woensdag 23 november 2016 17:29
> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<mailto:cctalk@
> classiccmp.org>
> Onderwerp: Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options
>
>
> > On Nov 23, 2016, at 7:11 AM, william degnan <billdeg...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > 3) I would not mind getting something like Guy's UA11 to test with.  Are
> > these available?
> >
>
> Yes, they are still available (along with KM11s)
>
> TTFN – Guy
> --
> I soldered my two KM11’s last Sunday!
> I bought them from you at least eight years ago!
>
> Going to put them to good use solving issues in my 11/10 and 11/40 …
>
> BTW, my 11/35 booted from RL02. But at the moment the 11/35 has issues ☹
> Regarding an SLU in slot 9: AFAIR, the M7800 does not use nor connect NPR,
> So the M7800 will go well in slot 9 regardless of BG and NPR present or
> not.
>
>
Please advise the order form/whatever to read about and if applicable order
a UA11, thanks

BTW - I put a 7800 (9600b) in my 11/40 in slot 9, works.  I usually have
the serial card in my 11DD-B backplane, slot 1.

b

RE: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[Henk Gooijen]

Van: Guy Sotomayor Jr<mailto:g...@shiresoft.com>
Verzonden: woensdag 23 november 2016 17:29
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options


> On Nov 23, 2016, at 7:11 AM, william degnan <billdeg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> 3) I would not mind getting something like Guy's UA11 to test with.  Are
> these available?
>

Yes, they are still available (along with KM11s)

TTFN – Guy
--
I soldered my two KM11’s last Sunday!
I bought them from you at least eight years ago!

Going to put them to good use solving issues in my 11/10 and 11/40 …

BTW, my 11/35 booted from RL02. But at the moment the 11/35 has issues ☹
Regarding an SLU in slot 9: AFAIR, the M7800 does not use nor connect NPR,
So the M7800 will go well in slot 9 regardless of BG and NPR present or not.

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[Guy Sotomayor Jr]

> On Nov 23, 2016, at 7:11 AM, william degnan  wrote:
> 
> 
> 3) I would not mind getting something like Guy's UA11 to test with.  Are
> these available?
> 

Yes, they are still available (along with KM11s)

TTFN - Guy

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[william degnan]

>
>
>> Interesting.  I suppose the LTC on the M7856 could also be disabled...
> I'll have to try that and see if it works.  The DL11-W manual doesn't seem
> to cover any special installation procedures for the 11/40, and the 11/40
> System Manual describes Slot 9 as a "SMALL PERIPHERAL CONTROLLER (USUALLY
> DL11)" slot without mentioning the lack of NPG and the LTC oddity.  Weird.
>
> I now have the CPU passing diagnostics with flying colors (there was a
> problem with the IR Decode logic causing incorrect reserved instruction
> traps), and I can boot RT-11 from the SCSI controller, yay.  Now to track
> down the EIS and Stack Limit options...
>
> - Josh
>

Josh,
Glad to hear.  Also this thread may have given me the clues I need to boot
an RL02 / 11/40 / RT-11.
1) I never thought to check to see if my system was used with a KW11-L in
the past, I too appear to have a CPU set that came from a different
system.  I need to check for a missing jumper in slot 3 of the CPU
backplane.  F03R2 and F03V2.

2)  I actually do have a KW11-L (M787), but whenever I attempt to use it I
can't do much other than toggle memory using the front panel.  Simple CPU
programs fail, and I can't boot using M9312.  (I actually tried 2 of these
cards, same result) I thus assumed I did not have a CPU backplane wired for
a KW11-L, but it could be that it actually *is* and the problem is with the
M787 card, a fault in the card.   I have 0 experience with altering or
testing backplane jumpers, but I will try.  I have always used an extender
card instead and probed signals form the extension card as a cheat.  It
seems like the NPG is OK AFAICT, but I did not check slot 9.  It does not
seem to matter whether I have a grant card in slot 9 or not either.

3) I would not mind getting something like Guy's UA11 to test with.  Are
these available?

4) I have been also working on getting a M7856 wired to 177560 so I can
emulate a TU58.  Made progress last night, will keep working on getting
XXDP running.  Up to this point I had been loading in one routine at a time
using PDPGUI.  Some success, used to learn my system was expecting a KJ11
(M737), which fortunately I had.  Since then I verified that my CPU cards
are correctly jumpered for what I have installed in the backplane.  Per
this conversation I believe I have the correct cards and enough working RAM
to operate RT-11.

Noel - Do you ever make a trip up my way?  If you ever have time to stop by
to help me with my system I'll trade you some hardware or food for  your
trouble...

Thanks

Bill

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[Guy Sotomayor Jr]

> On Nov 22, 2016, at 5:43 PM, william degnan  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:13 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr  wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 22, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> So... maybe I just completely missed the memo on this, and maybe there's
>> still something wrong with my backplane... is it possible that slot 9 of
>> the 11/40's CPU backplane is wired *specifically* for an M7800?  I guess I
>> need to spend some time tonight seeing what the differences are... but now
>> I need to go attend to a cranky 2yo who just woke up from a nap…
>>> 
>> 
>> I seem to recall something similar with one of the 11/40’s I was working
>> on.  I believe that because the 11/40 CPU backplane is wired for an M787
>> that things don’t work quite right if you try and install an M7856 into the
>> SPC slot in the backplane and try and use it and not the M787.  There is a
>> way to jumper the CPU backplane so you can use na M7856 and not the M787.
>> I haven’t really investigated it in detail (and it’s been a long time since
>> I messed around with the 11/40 at that level).
>> 
>> TTFN - Guy
>> 
>> 
> I have my 11/40 fired up right now too.  I can load BASIC and I have a
> M9312 with a M7800 that returns serial signals/monitor running.  I have the
> CPU backplane, two core planes (empty), a DD11B and an DD11C.   I can
> operate without a grant card in slot, but I can't boot up using RL02 either
> way, still trying to track down if I have a UNIBUS issue.
> 
> If there is something I can measure for you, for comparison purposes, let
> me know.  I will be around tomorrow too during the day.  I live near Phila,
> it's 845PM Tuesday at the moment here.
> 

Hmm.  I just realized that folks are having trouble booting an 11/40 from an
RL02.  My 11/40 (which is a *big* configuration) has an RL11 in addition to
the RK11D and in the past I’ve booted it from an RL02 with no problems.  So
I suspect it’s some sort of Unibus configuration issue.  I haven’t fired up
the system since I moved it a few years ago so it would likely take a bit to
check things out.

TTFN - Guy

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[william degnan]

>
>
> I have my 11/40 fired up right now too.  I can load BASIC and I have a
> M9312 with a M7800 that returns serial signals/monitor running.  I have the
> CPU backplane, two core planes (empty), a DD11B and an DD11C.   I can
> operate without a grant card in slot, but I can't boot up using RL02 either
> way, still trying to track down if I have a UNIBUS issue.
>
> If there is something I can measure for you, for comparison purposes, let
> me know.  I will be around tomorrow too during the day.  I live near Phila,
> it's 845PM Tuesday at the moment here.
>
> BIll
>

...slot 9 that is, system does not seem to notice.  I have only a M737, no
M787 installed but my CPU is not expecting a M787

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[william degnan]

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:13 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr  wrote:

>
> > On Nov 22, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:
> >
> >
> > So... maybe I just completely missed the memo on this, and maybe there's
> still something wrong with my backplane... is it possible that slot 9 of
> the 11/40's CPU backplane is wired *specifically* for an M7800?  I guess I
> need to spend some time tonight seeing what the differences are... but now
> I need to go attend to a cranky 2yo who just woke up from a nap…
> >
>
> I seem to recall something similar with one of the 11/40’s I was working
> on.  I believe that because the 11/40 CPU backplane is wired for an M787
> that things don’t work quite right if you try and install an M7856 into the
> SPC slot in the backplane and try and use it and not the M787.  There is a
> way to jumper the CPU backplane so you can use na M7856 and not the M787.
> I haven’t really investigated it in detail (and it’s been a long time since
> I messed around with the 11/40 at that level).
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>
I have my 11/40 fired up right now too.  I can load BASIC and I have a
M9312 with a M7800 that returns serial signals/monitor running.  I have the
CPU backplane, two core planes (empty), a DD11B and an DD11C.   I can
operate without a grant card in slot, but I can't boot up using RL02 either
way, still trying to track down if I have a UNIBUS issue.

If there is something I can measure for you, for comparison purposes, let
me know.  I will be around tomorrow too during the day.  I live near Phila,
it's 845PM Tuesday at the moment here.

BIll

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[Guy Sotomayor Jr]

> On Nov 22, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:
> 
> 
> So... maybe I just completely missed the memo on this, and maybe there's 
> still something wrong with my backplane... is it possible that slot 9 of the 
> 11/40's CPU backplane is wired *specifically* for an M7800?  I guess I need 
> to spend some time tonight seeing what the differences are... but now I need 
> to go attend to a cranky 2yo who just woke up from a nap…
> 

I seem to recall something similar with one of the 11/40’s I was working on.  I 
believe that because the 11/40 CPU backplane is wired for an M787 that things 
don’t work quite right if you try and install an M7856 into the SPC slot in the 
backplane and try and use it and not the M787.  There is a way to jumper the 
CPU backplane so you can use na M7856 and not the M787.  I haven’t really 
investigated it in detail (and it’s been a long time since I messed around with 
the 11/40 at that level).

TTFN - Guy

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[Josh Dersch]

On 11/22/16 4:00 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:




On 11/22/16 9:27 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Josh Dersch derschjo at gmail.com

 > see if the same is true for other bus grants -- I can run the 
system
 > with no grant continuity card at all in slot 9 and everything 
works.


Well, the BG4-BG7 grants definitely _are_ run through the SPC slot 9 
(see

below) - at least, on a stock system. It's _possible_ that the software
you're loading doesn't use interrupts. (I have this vague memory 
that, unlike
the -11/34, the /40 doesn't complain if there's a non-continuous 
grant line.)
Or perhaps someone wired them across on that slot, to avoid 
knuckle-mashing

trying to put a G727 down there.
Yes, I'd expect them to be run through the slot (though I expected the 
NPG, too :)).  And there does seem to be continuity between the BG 
pins on the CPU backplane and those on the DD11.


If I remove the grant continuity card from slot 9, I can still boot 
XXDP.  If I remove a grant continuity card from the DD11 (with NPG 
still intact), I can't  -- it hangs as I'd expect with a hole in the 
grant chain.


No one's done anything cute like hard-wiring the grants in and there's 
no evidence of any modifications.  All expected voltages are present 
on the backplane pins in the right places.  I put a little contact 
cleaner in the slot too, just in case.  I still can't get an SLU to 
function in that slot, though the CSR addresses seem to respond and 
the console/diagnostic PROM chugs along happily when I power the 
machine up (though nothing appears on the serial line).


Tonight I may try running the SLU on an extender board and verifying 
that all the proper voltages are actually making it to the board. The 
fact that the board appears to be responding but I'm getting nothing 
over the serial line makes me think that maybe the -15V isn't present 
for some reason...


Ad: mystery solved (?).  I had borrowed the SLU I was using in the 
11/40 from my 11/34.  This was an M7856 (DL11-W).  Thought I'd grab 
another SLU from my UNIBUS drawer and configure it up so I could put the 
7856 back in the 11/34, but all I had left were the older, more annoying 
to configure M7800s (DL11-D).  So I jumpered it up (max of 2400 baud 
with the crystal that's currently installed, blah) and installed it.  
Works fine in the DD11 backplane.


Moved it to slot 9 of the CPU backplane.  Still works.

So... maybe I just completely missed the memo on this, and maybe there's 
still something wrong with my backplane... is it possible that slot 9 of 
the 11/40's CPU backplane is wired *specifically* for an M7800?  I guess 
I need to spend some time tonight seeing what the differences are... but 
now I need to go attend to a cranky 2yo who just woke up from a nap...


- Josh

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[Josh Dersch]

On 11/22/16 9:27 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Josh Dersch derschjo at gmail.com

 > see if the same is true for other bus grants -- I can run the system
 > with no grant continuity card at all in slot 9 and everything works.

Well, the BG4-BG7 grants definitely _are_ run through the SPC slot 9 (see
below) - at least, on a stock system. It's _possible_ that the software
you're loading doesn't use interrupts. (I have this vague memory that, unlike
the -11/34, the /40 doesn't complain if there's a non-continuous grant line.)
Or perhaps someone wired them across on that slot, to avoid knuckle-mashing
trying to put a G727 down there.
Yes, I'd expect them to be run through the slot (though I expected the 
NPG, too :)).  And there does seem to be continuity between the BG pins 
on the CPU backplane and those on the DD11.


If I remove the grant continuity card from slot 9, I can still boot 
XXDP.  If I remove a grant continuity card from the DD11 (with NPG still 
intact), I can't  -- it hangs as I'd expect with a hole in the grant chain.


No one's done anything cute like hard-wiring the grants in and there's 
no evidence of any modifications.  All expected voltages are present on 
the backplane pins in the right places.  I put a little contact cleaner 
in the slot too, just in case.  I still can't get an SLU to function in 
that slot, though the CSR addresses seem to respond and the 
console/diagnostic PROM chugs along happily when I power the machine up 
(though nothing appears on the serial line).


Tonight I may try running the SLU on an extender board and verifying 
that all the proper voltages are actually making it to the board. The 
fact that the board appears to be responding but I'm getting nothing 
over the serial line makes me think that maybe the -15V isn't present 
for some reason...


Anyway, the wire list in the drawings show all four lines (although they are
listed in two places, under "BGx" and "BUS BGx"). E.g. BG4 is shown on pg. 79
as going from D07E2 (Source - K4-6, pg. 63, top right) to D09S2 (which is the
correct BG4 'in' pin for SPC), and as BUS BG4 on pg. 84 as going from D09T2
(SPC BG4 'out' pin) to B09E2 (correct BG4 UNIBUS 'out' pin).

 > I now have the system booting XXDP

Yahh!!

 > I did find out why there was that wire missing on the backplane; the
 > KW11-L requires a wire (carrying one of the bus grant signals) be
 > removed from slot 3.

Right, BG6 is wired through that KW11-L slot because the clock needs
interrupts - the wire list shows that on pg. 79, where the BG6 entry is longer
than the other BGn entries, because of that. If I'm reading the notations
correctly, it shows the jumper installed by default - I guess it was removed
by hand on systems sold with a KW11-L?
The KW11-L manual suggests that this is the case, the installation 
instructions specifically call out removing that wire.  Apparently my 
40's backplane had been reconfigured in such a manner at some point.





There must also be some way to indicate that the jumper should be wired on
top at both ends (so the F03V2 to D09M2 wire wouldn't have to be removed to
pull the F03R2 to F03V2 jumper) - although maybe they just did _all_
multi-pin runs as alternating low on both ends, high on both ends, repeat to
make removal/replacement easier.

Speaking of notation, dunno if you knew this (I didn't), but the wire list
for the 11/40 includes etch also; you can tell etch entries from an 'H' in
the "Q" column and 'P' in the "Remark" column. Don't confuse them with the
'H' in the "A/P" column, which also also has some 'L' entries; not sure what
that is about, unless it tells whether the signal is asserted high or low.


That's useful information to have, thanks!

- Josh




Noel

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Josh Dersch derschjo at gmail.com 

> see if the same is true for other bus grants -- I can run the system
> with no grant continuity card at all in slot 9 and everything works.

Well, the BG4-BG7 grants definitely _are_ run through the SPC slot 9 (see
below) - at least, on a stock system. It's _possible_ that the software
you're loading doesn't use interrupts. (I have this vague memory that, unlike
the -11/34, the /40 doesn't complain if there's a non-continuous grant line.)
Or perhaps someone wired them across on that slot, to avoid knuckle-mashing
trying to put a G727 down there.

Anyway, the wire list in the drawings show all four lines (although they are
listed in two places, under "BGx" and "BUS BGx"). E.g. BG4 is shown on pg. 79
as going from D07E2 (Source - K4-6, pg. 63, top right) to D09S2 (which is the
correct BG4 'in' pin for SPC), and as BUS BG4 on pg. 84 as going from D09T2
(SPC BG4 'out' pin) to B09E2 (correct BG4 UNIBUS 'out' pin).

> I now have the system booting XXDP

Yahh!!

> I did find out why there was that wire missing on the backplane; the
> KW11-L requires a wire (carrying one of the bus grant signals) be
> removed from slot 3.

Right, BG6 is wired through that KW11-L slot because the clock needs
interrupts - the wire list shows that on pg. 79, where the BG6 entry is longer
than the other BGn entries, because of that. If I'm reading the notations
correctly, it shows the jumper installed by default - I guess it was removed
by hand on systems sold with a KW11-L?

There must also be some way to indicate that the jumper should be wired on
top at both ends (so the F03V2 to D09M2 wire wouldn't have to be removed to
pull the F03R2 to F03V2 jumper) - although maybe they just did _all_
multi-pin runs as alternating low on both ends, high on both ends, repeat to
make removal/replacement easier.

Speaking of notation, dunno if you knew this (I didn't), but the wire list
for the 11/40 includes etch also; you can tell etch entries from an 'H' in
the "Q" column and 'P' in the "Remark" column. Don't confuse them with the
'H' in the "A/P" column, which also also has some 'L' entries; not sure what
that is about, unless it tells whether the signal is asserted high or low.

Noel

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[Josh Dersch]

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Noel Chiappa 
wrote:

> > It's possible that they didn't bother wiring NPG to that slot, but
> sent
> > it directly to the NPG pin on the 'UNIBUS out' connector
>
> Sho'nuff; the 11/40 prints indicate (pg. 86) that "BUS NPG" goes directly
> from
> C07P2 ("Source" - you can see the generation on print K4-5, pg. 62, lower
> right side), to A09U1 (NPG on the UNIBUS Out connector), do not pass
> through
> SPC slot 9, do not collect a grant.
>
> I dunno about any other oddities you're seeing, but I think this one is
> solved. :-)
>
> Noel
>

Interesting.  I'll have to look tonight and see if the same is true for
other bus grants -- I can run the system with no grant continuity card at
all in slot 9 and everything works.  Which seems strange to me.

I went through and cleaned the edge connectors on all of the boards,
grants, and UNIBUS jumpers, and I went through the CPU set to make sure all
jumpers (etc.) are in the right place for running without an MMU, EIS, LTC,
Stack Limit, etc.  I now have the system booting XXDP (from a SCSI2SD via
the SCSI controller) and things are mostly sane.  Occasionally the
diagnostics start trapping to 10 (reserved instruction trap) so something's
amiss but I didn't have time last night to dig into things.

I did find out why there was that wire missing on the backplane; the KW11-L
requires a wire (carrying one of the bus grant signals) be removed from
slot 3.  My machine is a bit of a mongrel -- the CPU set that it came with
was not original to the machine, so nothing matches up... but things seem
to be rectified now.  Just need to solve the slot 9 mystery and work on
getting diagnostics to pass more reliably.

Thanks,
Josh

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[Noel Chiappa]

> It's possible that they didn't bother wiring NPG to that slot, but sent
> it directly to the NPG pin on the 'UNIBUS out' connector

Sho'nuff; the 11/40 prints indicate (pg. 86) that "BUS NPG" goes directly from
C07P2 ("Source" - you can see the generation on print K4-5, pg. 62, lower
right side), to A09U1 (NPG on the UNIBUS Out connector), do not pass through
SPC slot 9, do not collect a grant.

I dunno about any other oddities you're seeing, but I think this one is
solved. :-)

Noel

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Josh Dersch

> There appears to be no continuity between CA1/CB1 of slot 9 and CA1/CB1
> of the SPC/MUD slots in the rest of the system.

Is that the only issue? If so, that should be 'not too hard' to track down.

It's possible that they didn't bother wiring NPG to that slot, but sent it
directly to the NPG pin on the 'UNIBUS out' connector; when the -11/40 was
done, there were no single-board DMA devices.

> It's very puzzling.

BTDT! :-)


> I have an RK11 and an RK05

Ah, you're good then - Unix V6 will run fine with a single RK. (Ah, memories:
my first experience as a sys-admin was on an 11/40 with a single RK...) The
standard V6 distro include systems that will run on an RK. (The V7 distro
does not, but it's possible to build RK-based systems. You'd need to bring it
up on an emulator to do so.)

> (with the option of a 2nd RK05 if I ever get some mounting rails for
> it.) I know the RK05s are tight storage-wise.

Well, you can't put all the source and documentation online with a single RK
(or even two), but that shouldn't be an issue. If you were actually trying to
do _real work_ on the system, a single RK might be something of a PITA.

> I also have an RL02 but I need to repair an RL11 first.

Put that online, and you'll have plenty of room. Also, with two controllers,
you'll get higher performance (not that you care :-); you could put e.g.
swapping on the RK, and most files on the RL.


> I should be able to wrangle bits onto media either using what I have,
> or by using stuff at the LCM, but the VTServer option sounds nice too.

OK, I'll probably get back to work on it 'soon'.

> The RL bootstrap and driver would be very useful to have, thanks!

They're available on my "Bringing up V6 Unix on the Ersatz-11 PDP-11
Emulator" page, here:

  http://mercury.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html#RL 

That page (and it's partner, "Improving V6 Unix") probably contains some
other useful stuff, if you're serious about running V6.

One off the top of my head: the C on the 'vanilla' V6 distro is fairly
primitive. There are no longs or unsigneds, casts don't work, etc, etc. There
is a later version (which I think might be the so-called 'phototypsetter C'),
available from the 'Shoppa disks', you might want to get that.

Noel

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[allison]

On 11/21/2016 05:44 PM, william degnan wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Jerry Weiss  wrote:
>
>>> On Nov 21, 2016, at 2:13 PM, william degnan 
>> wrote:
>>> On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:
>>>
 Hi all --

 I'm finally turning my attention back to my 11/40 (which I started
>> working
 on 7 years ago and never quite got around to finishing -- I've learned a
 lot since then and I'm hoping to be able to debug it properly now).

 My ultimate goal is to run V6 or V7 UNIX on it -- I have the MMU but I'm
 looking for an M787 (line-time clock) and M7237 (stack limit register)
>> to
 complete the set.  I have other DEC stuff for trade, drop me a line...

 Thanks!
 Josh

>>> Just curious, are you aware whether these two are required to boot a RL02
>>> disk or certain versions of RT-11?  I have been experiencing
>> difficulties,
>>> I only have the m737 iinstalled in my system.
>>> Bill
>>
>> RT11 will run w/o an LTC.
>>
>> TTBOMR the stack limit register is not need for Single Job and the
>> other RT11 OS variants.  However a  program could overwrite the vector area
>> and cause an ungraceful shutdown.  Make sure the jumpers on the KD11-A
>> are set
>> correctly for this configuration.
>>
>> Using an RL02 to boot RT11 should be okay as well.
>>
>> Jerry
>> j...@ieee.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Not exactly what TTBOMR is but I can say that given zero luck booting RT-11
> from an RL02 on my 11/40 my next move is to emulate a TU58 drive on a 2nd
> serial card and run XXDP.I can run BASIC with no problem, but it seems
> like my known working (elsewhere) M7762 RT11 controller card does not wake
> up when called by the bootstrap 9312 ROM, etc.
>
> b
>
Rt-11 must be configured for the controller that boots it at the CSR and
vector its using
(try the standard addresses/Vector). RT has few needs and will run on a
16K machine
with minimal hardware (console and boot device).   I have a 11/2 with
28KW and
DLV11J that boots RT-11FB from TU58 (very slowly but it does!).   That's
a tiny 4
slot Qbus machine (BA11VA) and is very minimal.

Also make sure your trying to boot RT11SJ initially as that has the
lowest needs.


Allison

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[Josh Dersch]

On 11/21/16 5:47 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:


 > From: Josh Dersch

 > The 11/40 is mostly working ... but I've been unable to boot anything
 > (like XXDP, for example).

What are you trying to boot from?
I've tried an emulated TU58 and (most recently) a UNIBUS SCSI controller 
that I'm fortunate enough to have.





 > Slot 9 of the CPU backplane is supposed to be an SPC slot but it
 > doesn't seem to work

Missing/hard-wired BG/NPG jumpers on that slot, maybe?
The NPG jumper on slot 9 is not present, and it has no effect on the NPG 
chain if i jumper it or not (the bus seems happy otherwise...) There 
appears to be no continuity between CA1/CB1 of slot 9 and CA1/CB1 of the 
SPC/MUD slots in the rest of the system.  It's very puzzling.  I need to 
sit down with the wire list (and copious Excedrin) and probe things out.




If not, plug one of Guy's UA11's into that slot, and see what's up! :-)


 > I assumed I needed the KJ11-A because the KT11-D manual specifies
 > (bottom of page 2-1): "When the KT11-D Memory Management Option is
 > added to an existing PDP-11 system, the KJ11-A Stack Limit Register
 > Option must also be added." So I assumed the MMU required this option
 > be present...

Hmm, I didn't recall that; not sure I ever knew that! (Sorry!)

I spent a short time looking at the KT11-D and KJ11-A prints, trying to see
exactly what the KT11-D wanted, but I wasn't able (yet) to fully grok the
interaction.

>From the KJ11-A prints, you can probably work around not having a KJ11-A card
by strapping the relevant outputs high or low (as the case might be), i.e.
simulating a KJ11-A which is not reporting a problem. Like I said, V6 doesn't
use the SLR for anything, so it's it's not actually working (i.e. reporting
stack transgressions), no biggie.

If you're determined, I did scan in a KJ11's PCB, so it would probably be
possible to produce 'after-marked' ones - it's not a very complicated card.


Thanks for looking into it.  I'm not desperate for a KJ11 yet, but it's 
good to have resources should one need to be built...





 >> You will also need the KE11-E (M7238), as the Unix C compiler emits
 >> MUL, DIV etc, and even the bootstrap uses them. The KE11-F (M7239) is
 >> useless; the V6 Unix C compiler doesn't generate that type of PDP-11
 >> floating point.

 > Yeah, that might be harder to find, I'd forgotten about that
 > requirement. I suppose I could run Ultrix-11 instead (I have that on my
 > 11/34 at the moment) as it'll run sans floating point hardware,

We seem to be having a communication failure. You don't need floating point
to run V6 or V7 on an 11/40. In addition, the hardware floating point
hardware on the 11/40 (the FIS) is a variety that Unix doesn't support anyway
(in the sense of, the C compiler doesn't generate FIS instructions).

It's the Exteded Instruction Set (EIS) card (which supports MUL, DIV, ASHC,
etc) which is necessary. No way UNIX (of any flavour) will run without those
instuctions (and thus, that card). If you don't have an M7238, start
looking
Sorry, sorry -- long day and it's been awhile since I looked at the 
11/40 in depth (just dusted it off last night).  I thought I had picked 
up an EIS years ago shortly after I picked up the machine but either my 
memory is faulty or it's disappeared somewhere (the former is more 
likely at this point, I actually do have things somewhat organized 
here).  So that adds another level of fun.


Maybe at this point I should be happy to get RT-11 working :).





BTW, what is your mass storage device? RL's? If so, vanilla V6 doesn't support
RL's, but I do have a V6 RL driver, I can either build you a system that will
run on an RL, or (if you bring up V6 under an emulator, so you can build
systems, etc) provide it so you can add it. You'll also need an RL bootstrap
(again, those are available, but not in vanilla V6).

Also, how are you getting the bits onto the mass storage? V6 can only be
'cold installed' onto a blank machine from a TM11 or TM02 tape drive. Failing
that, you have to put a V6 filesystem onto a disk on some other machine. Do
you have the ability to write packs on another machine/OS, and the ability to
get a Unix file system onto that system? Failing that, I'm in the process of
getting VTServer working to transfer V6 over a serial line to a blank machine
(my situation) - I got distracted before I got 100% finished, but I have it
all scoped out, and can get it done in a couple of hours from where I am now.


I have an RK11 and an RK05 (with the option of a 2nd RK05 if I ever get 
some mounting rails for it.)  I know the RK05s are tight storage-wise. I 
also have an RL02 but I need to repair an RL11 first.  (And there's 
always the SCSI controller, should I get up the nerve to backport an 
MSCP driver...) I should be able to wrangle bits onto media either using 
what I have, or by using stuff at the LCM, but the VTServer option 
sounds nice too.  The 

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Josh Dersch

> The 11/40 is mostly working ... but I've been unable to boot anything
> (like XXDP, for example).

What are you trying to boot from?

> Slot 9 of the CPU backplane is supposed to be an SPC slot but it
> doesn't seem to work

Missing/hard-wired BG/NPG jumpers on that slot, maybe?

If not, plug one of Guy's UA11's into that slot, and see what's up! :-)


> I assumed I needed the KJ11-A because the KT11-D manual specifies
> (bottom of page 2-1): "When the KT11-D Memory Management Option is
> added to an existing PDP-11 system, the KJ11-A Stack Limit Register
> Option must also be added." So I assumed the MMU required this option
> be present...

Hmm, I didn't recall that; not sure I ever knew that! (Sorry!)

I spent a short time looking at the KT11-D and KJ11-A prints, trying to see
exactly what the KT11-D wanted, but I wasn't able (yet) to fully grok the
interaction.

>From the KJ11-A prints, you can probably work around not having a KJ11-A card
by strapping the relevant outputs high or low (as the case might be), i.e.
simulating a KJ11-A which is not reporting a problem. Like I said, V6 doesn't
use the SLR for anything, so it's it's not actually working (i.e. reporting
stack transgressions), no biggie.

If you're determined, I did scan in a KJ11's PCB, so it would probably be
possible to produce 'after-marked' ones - it's not a very complicated card.


>> You will also need the KE11-E (M7238), as the Unix C compiler emits
>> MUL, DIV etc, and even the bootstrap uses them. The KE11-F (M7239) is
>> useless; the V6 Unix C compiler doesn't generate that type of PDP-11
>> floating point.

> Yeah, that might be harder to find, I'd forgotten about that
> requirement. I suppose I could run Ultrix-11 instead (I have that on my
> 11/34 at the moment) as it'll run sans floating point hardware,

We seem to be having a communication failure. You don't need floating point
to run V6 or V7 on an 11/40. In addition, the hardware floating point
hardware on the 11/40 (the FIS) is a variety that Unix doesn't support anyway
(in the sense of, the C compiler doesn't generate FIS instructions).

It's the Exteded Instruction Set (EIS) card (which supports MUL, DIV, ASHC,
etc) which is necessary. No way UNIX (of any flavour) will run without those
instuctions (and thus, that card). If you don't have an M7238, start
looking


BTW, what is your mass storage device? RL's? If so, vanilla V6 doesn't support
RL's, but I do have a V6 RL driver, I can either build you a system that will
run on an RL, or (if you bring up V6 under an emulator, so you can build
systems, etc) provide it so you can add it. You'll also need an RL bootstrap
(again, those are available, but not in vanilla V6).

Also, how are you getting the bits onto the mass storage? V6 can only be
'cold installed' onto a blank machine from a TM11 or TM02 tape drive. Failing
that, you have to put a V6 filesystem onto a disk on some other machine. Do
you have the ability to write packs on another machine/OS, and the ability to
get a Unix file system onto that system? Failing that, I'm in the process of
getting VTServer working to transfer V6 over a serial line to a blank machine
(my situation) - I got distracted before I got 100% finished, but I have it
all scoped out, and can get it done in a couple of hours from where I am now.

Noel

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[william degnan]

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Jerry Weiss  wrote:

>
> > On Nov 21, 2016, at 2:13 PM, william degnan 
> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all --
> >>
> >> I'm finally turning my attention back to my 11/40 (which I started
> working
> >> on 7 years ago and never quite got around to finishing -- I've learned a
> >> lot since then and I'm hoping to be able to debug it properly now).
> >>
> >> My ultimate goal is to run V6 or V7 UNIX on it -- I have the MMU but I'm
> >> looking for an M787 (line-time clock) and M7237 (stack limit register)
> to
> >> complete the set.  I have other DEC stuff for trade, drop me a line...
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >> Josh
> >>
> >
> > Just curious, are you aware whether these two are required to boot a RL02
> > disk or certain versions of RT-11?  I have been experiencing
> difficulties,
> > I only have the m737 iinstalled in my system.
> > Bill
>
>
> RT11 will run w/o an LTC.
>
> TTBOMR the stack limit register is not need for Single Job and the
> other RT11 OS variants.  However a  program could overwrite the vector area
> and cause an ungraceful shutdown.  Make sure the jumpers on the KD11-A
> are set
> correctly for this configuration.
>
> Using an RL02 to boot RT11 should be okay as well.
>
> Jerry
> j...@ieee.org
>
>
>
>
Not exactly what TTBOMR is but I can say that given zero luck booting RT-11
from an RL02 on my 11/40 my next move is to emulate a TU58 drive on a 2nd
serial card and run XXDP.I can run BASIC with no problem, but it seems
like my known working (elsewhere) M7762 RT11 controller card does not wake
up when called by the bootstrap 9312 ROM, etc.

b

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[Jerry Weiss]

> On Nov 21, 2016, at 2:13 PM, william degnan  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:
> 
>> Hi all --
>> 
>> I'm finally turning my attention back to my 11/40 (which I started working
>> on 7 years ago and never quite got around to finishing -- I've learned a
>> lot since then and I'm hoping to be able to debug it properly now).
>> 
>> My ultimate goal is to run V6 or V7 UNIX on it -- I have the MMU but I'm
>> looking for an M787 (line-time clock) and M7237 (stack limit register) to
>> complete the set.  I have other DEC stuff for trade, drop me a line...
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> Josh
>> 
> 
> Just curious, are you aware whether these two are required to boot a RL02
> disk or certain versions of RT-11?  I have been experiencing difficulties,
> I only have the m737 iinstalled in my system.
> Bill


RT11 will run w/o an LTC.  

TTBOMR the stack limit register is not need for Single Job and the
other RT11 OS variants.  However a  program could overwrite the vector area
and cause an ungraceful shutdown.  Make sure the jumpers on the KD11-A are 
set
correctly for this configuration.

Using an RL02 to boot RT11 should be okay as well. 

Jerry 
j...@ieee.org

Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options

[william degnan]

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:

> Hi all --
>
> I'm finally turning my attention back to my 11/40 (which I started working
> on 7 years ago and never quite got around to finishing -- I've learned a
> lot since then and I'm hoping to be able to debug it properly now).
>
> My ultimate goal is to run V6 or V7 UNIX on it -- I have the MMU but I'm
> looking for an M787 (line-time clock) and M7237 (stack limit register) to
> complete the set.  I have other DEC stuff for trade, drop me a line...
>
> Thanks!
> Josh
>

Just curious, are you aware whether these two are required to boot a RL02
disk or certain versions of RT-11?  I have been experiencing difficulties,
I only have the m737 iinstalled in my system.
Bill