Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 04:22:27PM -0400, Dave McGuire via cctalk wrote: > I would posit that he does not have a museum; he has a collection > and a wish. When and if that wish pans out, and I hope it does, > then he will have a museum. But not before. +1. That's a positive way to look at it. mcl
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer
> On Mar 18, 2022, at 3:15 PM, W2HX wrote: > >> For a number of years they had on display the world's oldest broadcast >> transmitter, an FM transmitter from 1919 invented in The Hague by Hanso >> Idzerda. > > Interesting as that would have predated the invention of FM by Edwin Howard > Armstrong in 1933 (or at least what we thought was the invention). But > notably, vacuum tube technology that existed in 1919 might be hard-pressed to > be up to the task. I look forward to doing some more research on this topic. > Thanks! FWIW, in an article I wrote about Idzerda's work I mentioned an analogy: Leif Eriksson's discovery of America, well before the journeys of Columbus. The difference is that Eriksson's travels did not produce any historic followup while Columbus's travels did. Similarly, Idzerda's work was a technological dead end; while a few additional transmitters were built from his design, it disappeared in the late 1920s, and the reactance modulator used by Armstrong was a better technology. In the world of computers you can apply this analogy as well; the Analytical Engine, the ABC computer, and perhaps Zuse's computers would be examples of early work that didn't produce any real descendants. Somewhat different but similar are all the various dead end technology bits, from core rope ROM to bubble memory to magnetic card memory, all things that had a brief and very limited existence but faded and left no progeny. paul
RE: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer
> For a number of years they had on display the world's oldest broadcast > transmitter, an FM transmitter from 1919 invented in The Hague by Hanso > Idzerda. Interesting as that would have predated the invention of FM by Edwin Howard Armstrong in 1933 (or at least what we thought was the invention). But notably, vacuum tube technology that existed in 1919 might be hard-pressed to be up to the task. I look forward to doing some more research on this topic. Thanks! 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos -Original Message- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Paul Koning via cctalk Sent: Friday, March 18, 2022 2:47 PM To: dave.g4...@gmail.com; cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer They might also get rid of stuff, not necessarily for an obvious reason. I saw a case of this recently, in the Dutch museum Boerhaave in Leiden, which is a national science-related museum. For a number of years they had on display the world's oldest broadcast transmitter, an FM transmitter from 1919 invented in The Hague by Hanso Idzerda. Some time recently it was removed from the museum collection. In that case it went back to the organization it came from, the Picture and Sound Institute, but whether it will be displayed by them is not clear. In any case, that's an example of the uncertain future of artefacts in museum collections. paul
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer
> On Mar 18, 2022, at 1:31 PM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk > wrote: > > I missed a lot of this because g-mail decided to bounce some e-mails. > > I would like to make a couple of observations:- > > 1. Many real accredited museums have a smaller percentage of their artifacts > on display than private collectors. In the UK both TNMOC and the Science > Museum Group have large quantities of hardware that is not displayed. > The science museum usually catalogues it but it is not really helpful if you > can't see it. They might also get rid of stuff, not necessarily for an obvious reason. I saw a case of this recently, in the Dutch museum Boerhaave in Leiden, which is a national science-related museum. For a number of years they had on display the world's oldest broadcast transmitter, an FM transmitter from 1919 invented in The Hague by Hanso Idzerda. Some time recently it was removed from the museum collection. In that case it went back to the organization it came from, the Picture and Sound Institute, but whether it will be displayed by them is not clear. In any case, that's an example of the uncertain future of artefacts in museum collections. paul
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
On 3/18/22 04:19, Joshua Rice wrote: These are all valid concerns, especially since some collectors generally have eyes bigger then their belly, wanting more machines than they have the appropriate storage for. I fear i have been just as guilty (though i generally keep anything of value outside of the rat infested shed) Yes, that seems common. I myself have been guilty of that in the past. It's a slippery slope. However, there are a great many people who do try and keep their collections indoors and on display. Obviously, this is much easier with machines like the 80's micros than it is with 60's and 70's big iron and minicomputers, which is likely the reason (plus larger production volumes) that so many machines of the 80's and beyond survive and are relatively plentiful. Agreed 100%. It's also rather unfair to defame private collectors. A lot of them (especially the ones that come out of barns, leaky sheds, garages and basements) were the ones who saved the equipment from the scrappers in the first place. Much of this large system equipment survives (maybe in poor condition) purely because of the private collector. I believe that whilst climate controlled museums are ultimately the best place for functional equipment (where knowledge and skills can easily be pooled), the private collector has an important role in the preservation of equipment as well. My comments are borne of frustration. It is very hard to do what we're doing at LSSM, a lot harder than most people realize. A lot harder than I thought it'd be, for that matter. It's being made even harder by a lot of collectors that aren't conscientious about how they store things and how there usually aren't any estate disposition plans. You suggest that sitting in a leaky rodent-infested barn is better than the machine just being sent to a scrapper, and I agree. But as someone who has cleaned up far more of those "barn find" machines than just about anyone else here, it does get frustrating after awhile. Is it really so hard to arrange for appropriate storage? Surely you understand my position. I've been doing this at great personal expense, financial and otherwise, not for myself, but for the technology and for the public...including everyone here. But a lot of things, like this situation, make it pretty hard to maintain that motivation. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
-- Original Message -- From: "Dave McGuire via cctalk" To: "P Gebhardt" ; "cctalk" Sent: Thursday, 17 Mar, 2022 At 21:37 Subject: Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA As I've said privately today to three people who have emailed me off-list about this, since starting the LSSM project about ten years ago, I've seen many, probably 25, situations in which widows have junked their dead spouse's prized computer hardware. We've all heard of those situations, but as we've been actively looking for hardware, we see it a lot more, and even I was shocked about just how common this actually is. This is a fate that seems to befall most private collections. That, combined with rodent infestations, rust, etc resulting from the typical garage/barn/shed/basement storage that we've seen over and over, has impacted my opinion of private collections. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA These are all valid concerns, especially since some collectors generally have eyes bigger then their belly, wanting more machines than they have the appropriate storage for. I fear i have been just as guilty (though i generally keep anything of value outside of the rat infested shed) However, there are a great many people who do try and keep their collections indoors and on display. Obviously, this is much easier with machines like the 80's micros than it is with 60's and 70's big iron and minicomputers, which is likely the reason (plus larger production volumes) that so many machines of the 80's and beyond survive and are relatively plentiful. It's also rather unfair to defame private collectors. A lot of them (especially the ones that come out of barns, leaky sheds, garages and basements) were the ones who saved the equipment from the scrappers in the first place. Much of this large system equipment survives (maybe in poor condition) purely because of the private collector. I believe that whilst climate controlled museums are ultimately the best place for functional equipment (where knowledge and skills can easily be pooled), the private collector has an important role in the preservation of equipment as well. Cheers, Josh Rice
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
> On Mar 17, 2022, at 1:56 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > I mean what is a museum really? What about low attendence museums versus > private collections that serve tons of people? Aren't museums private > collections too? Some museums are government establishments, but they don't necessarily play any better than any other collector. paul
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
On 3/17/22 17:27, P Gebhardt wrote: > Ok, it hit $1200, we're out of the running. I hope these systems go to a good home, and don't disappear into the black hole of a private collection. I think that next time, you should consider to rephrase this in a more considerate way. There are public museums on both sides of the great pond where stuff is stored in the basements for preservation and does not become accessible for years and years, even if one asks for it. And I am not only meaning hardware or software, I also mean documentation (this is based on personal experience). In my point of view, black holes exist in private as well as public museums, regardless of the different reasons for this. Some do a great job in making their collection accessible in public either for real or online via a website, and some don't. It just depends from case to case and generalising here doesn't seem appropriate. You are correct, and I will try harder. LSSM does, like most museums, have things in storage that are not always on exhibit. Most museums have more exhibits than they have space to show off at any one time. We rotate them every other year or so, but still, there are things even at LSSM that aren't readily visible. (of course you can always request a visit to the storage building around the corner.. ;)) As I've said privately today to three people who have emailed me off-list about this, since starting the LSSM project about ten years ago, I've seen many, probably 25, situations in which widows have junked their dead spouse's prized computer hardware. We've all heard of those situations, but as we've been actively looking for hardware, we see it a lot more, and even I was shocked about just how common this actually is. This is a fate that seems to befall most private collections. That, combined with rodent infestations, rust, etc resulting from the typical garage/barn/shed/basement storage that we've seen over and over, has impacted my opinion of private collections. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
> Ok, it hit $1200, we're out of the running. I hope these systems go > to a good home, and don't disappear into the black hole of a private > >collection. > I think that next time, you should consider to rephrase this in a more considerate way. There are public museums on both sides of the great pond where stuff is stored in the basements for preservation and does not become accessible for years and years, even if one asks for it. And I am not only meaning hardware or software, I also mean documentation (this is based on personal experience). In my point of view, black holes exist in private as well as public museums, regardless of the different reasons for this. Some do a great job in making their collection accessible in public either for real or online via a website, and some don't. It just depends from case to case and generalising here doesn't seem appropriate. Cheers, Pierre
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
> On Mar 17, 2022, at 4:22 PM, Dave McGuire via cctalk
> wrote:
>
> On 3/17/22 14:19, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote:
>>> In LSSM's case, it's a wholly-occupied 14,000 square foot commercial
>>> storefront building that nobody lives in, in a downtown shopping district,
>>> as distinguished from the typical private collection in a garage, basement,
>>> etc.
>> Right, I know you have a real building and are open to the public and
>> operate what I would consider a real museum.
That's a good definition. But the fact that an organization has a building, is
open to the public, and has a separate legal identity, doesn't necessarily
protect adequately. The LCM fits that definition, I believe, yet it long acted
as a gray hole, and now seems to have gone essentially full black.
For that matter, there are examples in "traditional" musea, as in places with
paintings and sculptures in them, going rogue. I remember an infamous court
case in the USA involving a museum obliged to be in a particular town, by its
founding documents, yet it decided unilaterally to pick up and move and somehow
got a court to agree it could do so.
Another consideration is how items get removed from the collection. Often
there is a storage building that holds much of the collection, while the actual
museum displays only a fraction. That's a consideration if access is a
concern. A bigger question is how a museum can decide to get rid of
("deaccess" I think is the buzzword used) things in its collection, and if it
does so, what becomes of them.
paul
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
On 3/17/2022 10:56 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: Our stuff is ALWAYS going out and getting played with. This is great! I very much applaud you doing this. In a similar vein, I am also trying to get to a point where I can share my very meager "collection" with others who might appreciate it. I certainly understand that there exists a continuum of private collectors/museums with different attitudes towards sharing, from those like yourself who openly and enthusiastically share their possessions, to those who choose to hide them away and let them collect dust. The point of my earlier message was simply to say that I support the former while regretting the latter. --Jay
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
On 3/17/22 14:19, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: In LSSM's case, it's a wholly-occupied 14,000 square foot commercial storefront building that nobody lives in, in a downtown shopping district, as distinguished from the typical private collection in a garage, basement, etc. Right, I know you have a real building and are open to the public and operate what I would consider a real museum. But where does one define a museum when it comes to randos, the small shops, the people just collecting donations for the price break, etc. The definition of "museum" is something that is bandied about quite a bit in museum circles, believe it or not. There is no universally-accepted definition. But when standing in someone's garage, basement, storage locker, etc, one can usually make a call that nobody would argue with. Someone I know has a museum, collects stuff, no business entity for it, and it doesn't usually see the light of day. He says he plans to open a museum someday, but he has no real business plan AFAIK. He does have some stuff on display at another museum though. I would posit that he does not have a museum; he has a collection and a wish. When and if that wish pans out, and I hope it does, then he will have a museum. But not before. It CAN happen. For decades I had a collection and a wish. Now there's a museum that showcases part of that collection, and parts of others' collections, and things of its own. It's not easy to do, but it is possible. Encourage your friend! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
In LSSM's case, it's a wholly-occupied 14,000 square foot commercial storefront building that nobody lives in, in a downtown shopping district, as distinguished from the typical private collection in a garage, basement, etc. -Dave Right, I know you have a real building and are open to the public and operate what I would consider a real museum. But where does one define a museum when it comes to randos, the small shops, the people just collecting donations for the price break, etc. Someone I know has a museum, collects stuff, no business entity for it, and it doesn't usually see the light of day. He says he plans to open a museum someday, but he has no real business plan AFAIK. He does have some stuff on display at another museum though. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
On 3/17/22 13:56, Ethan O'Toole wrote: I interpreted "disappear into the black hole of a private collection" as meaning "regrettably unavailable for viewing and/or use by anyone but the collector". This has nothing to do with how well the systems are preserved. And while the particular choice of words may be somewhat inflammatory (although not to me), I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. Private collector of computers, older video game stuff, pinball machines, synth/music toys and now dabbling into 35mm stuff. A few friends in this space. Our stuff is ALWAYS going out and getting played with. From the Smithsonian (SAAM events) to MAGFest events to Vintage Computer Festival events (Remember, most of those systems on display for play are from private collectors there to share!), to events that happened in Norfolk VA and Chesapeake VA. Some of my stuff will probably be at the upcoming event in Philly (Too many games.) This is absolutely fantastic, but it's very much the exception rather than the rule, especially where big iron is concerned, which is the context here. Anything could happen, but I doubt we'll see those two DG Novas at any festivals. I mean what is a museum really? What about low attendence museums versus private collections that serve tons of people? Aren't museums private collections too? In LSSM's case, it's a wholly-occupied 14,000 square foot commercial storefront building that nobody lives in, in a downtown shopping district, as distinguished from the typical private collection in a garage, basement, etc. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
On 3/17/22 13:14, Jay Logue wrote: If I'd known that opening a museum would be met wish such hostility, from day one, I'd never have gone to the trouble. > Please don't say that. Now is the time to thicken the skin and persevere. I appreciate your efforts, as do a lot of other people I suspect. Accordingly, I have just made another donation to the LSSM to help further your cause. Thank you Jay, we appreciate that very much! Yeah, I've never had a very thick skin; my skills lie elsewhere. ;) We are actively looking for people to get involved in LSSM, by the way. Tech work, marketing, docent work, fundraising, social media evangelism, even dusting and cleaning are all areas in which we need help. There are no paid positions available (that could change with fundraising) but for people who want to "get into something", plus have access to a really fantastic set of machines, it might be a great thing to sink one's teeth into. Contact me if interested! Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
I interpreted "disappear into the black hole of a private collection" as meaning "regrettably unavailable for viewing and/or use by anyone but the collector". This has nothing to do with how well the systems are preserved. And while the particular choice of words may be somewhat inflammatory (although not to me), I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. Private collector of computers, older video game stuff, pinball machines, synth/music toys and now dabbling into 35mm stuff. A few friends in this space. Our stuff is ALWAYS going out and getting played with. From the Smithsonian (SAAM events) to MAGFest events to Vintage Computer Festival events (Remember, most of those systems on display for play are from private collectors there to share!), to events that happened in Norfolk VA and Chesapeake VA. Some of my stuff will probably be at the upcoming event in Philly (Too many games.) I mean what is a museum really? What about low attendence museums versus private collections that serve tons of people? Aren't museums private collections too? - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
On 3/17/2022 9:20 AM, Dave McGuire via cctalk wrote: If I'd known that opening a museum would be met wish such hostility, from day one, I'd never have gone to the trouble. Please don't say that. Now is the time to thicken the skin and persevere. I appreciate your efforts, as do a lot of other people I suspect. Accordingly, I have just made another donation to the LSSM to help further your cause. --Jay
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
I interpreted "disappear into the black hole of a private collection" as meaning "regrettably unavailable for viewing and/or use by anyone but the collector". This has nothing to do with how well the systems are preserved. And while the particular choice of words may be somewhat inflammatory (although not to me), I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. --Jay
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
On 3/17/22 12:10, Jay Logue wrote: I interpreted "disappear into the black hole of a private collection" as meaning "regrettably unavailable for viewing and/or use by anyone but the collector". This has nothing to do with how well the systems are preserved. Thank you Jay, that's the biggest issue in my view, at least in the shorter term. And while the particular choice of words may be somewhat inflammatory (although not to me), I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment. I will try to choose my words better in the future. If I'd known that opening a museum would be met wish such hostility, from day one, I'd never have gone to the trouble. Even with my less-than-rosy opinion of human nature, I never saw it coming. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
On 3/17/22 09:30, Tom Hunter wrote: Your following comment is offensive: "I hope these systems go to a good home, and don't disappear into the black hole of a private collection." So sorry. You equate private collections with black holes. I think on the contrary many private collectors do a better job at preserving old systems than "museums". And now you equate all museums, with your quotes suggesting illegitimacy. Your opinion of the museum community is clear. Does this mean there is no room whatsoever for any museum to earn your respect? I was a private collector for decades before I embarked on the project of building a public museum. I know the score from both sides. There is a lot of good AND a lot of bad on both sides. (I have quite a lot to say on this subject, but it would be counterproductive to discuss it further.) I remember several "museums" which have failed in recent years. At least four of them have been much too greedy and took on way more than they could handle and in effect turned the collections into scrap. Oh yes, it happens all the time. If you think LSSM is in this category, I disagree. But either way, you're welcome to come and help. And then there is of course the sorry saga of the Living Computer "Museum" in Seattle which has sucked up a lot of old systems from private collectors. Of course. That debacle gave the entire museum world a bad name. And, it has nothing whatsoever to do with us. In fact, I promise you that we're a lot more angry about it than you are. I'm sorry you took offense to my statement. It was said in frustration, and that was my fault. But it was not an inaccurate representation of my direct and frequent experience with many private collections. There is no need for animosity here; we were (and are) concerned for the disposition of the machines. There isn't much DG hardware out there, and very little of even that is accessible. Once again, as you suggest we're doing a poor job, you're welcome to come and help. Just give us a date and time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
> On Mar 17, 2022, at 9:30 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk > wrote: > > Dave, > > Your following comment is offensive: > > "I hope these systems go to a good home, and don't disappear into the black > hole of a private collection." > > You equate private collections with black holes. I think on the contrary > many private collectors do a better job at preserving old systems than > "museums". > > I remember several "museums" which have failed in recent years. > At least four of them have been much too greedy and took on way more than > they could handle and in effect turned the collections into scrap. > > And then there is of course the sorry saga of the Living Computer "Museum" > in Seattle which has sucked up a lot of old systems from private collectors. Perhaps better than taking offense is to work with those who do a good job in this area and help them do so. Yes, some of us saw the warning signs about the LCM years ago. And I know of various musea doing things contrary to the wishes of their donors, sometimes even with the aid and comfort of the courts. But, with care, it's possible for both private collections and musea to do a good job. The "with care" is the key point, and it applies to every collector. paul
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
Dave, Your following comment is offensive: "I hope these systems go to a good home, and don't disappear into the black hole of a private collection." You equate private collections with black holes. I think on the contrary many private collectors do a better job at preserving old systems than "museums". I remember several "museums" which have failed in recent years. At least four of them have been much too greedy and took on way more than they could handle and in effect turned the collections into scrap. And then there is of course the sorry saga of the Living Computer "Museum" in Seattle which has sucked up a lot of old systems from private collectors. On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 6:05 AM Dave McGuire via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/16/22 16:56, Dave McGuire via cctalk wrote: > >> The LSSM is very interested in this machine for public display. It > would > >> complement the museum's collection of PDP-11s and other 16 bit machines. > > > >By "very interested", Mark means "is actively pursuing". Some of our > > donors are willing to foot the bill for the acquisition and subsequent > > retrieval trip; we've just about got it covered. > > > >For those who may be unaware, LSSM is a public minicomputer/mainframe > > museum in Pittsburgh, a registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, > > that has been open for about six years. The two DG machines in this > > auction will have a good home with us; it is our intention to restore > > them and place them on public exhibit for use. We have an established > > track record of "getting the job done" in this context. > > > >I'm letting this crowd know in case any of the current bidders are > > here and just trying to keep these machines out of the scrap stream, > > etc. We are donor-funded and don't have a lot to spend on this. > > > >If you would like to support us in this endeavor, we accept donations > > by check or via PayPal, see http://www.lssmuseum.org for more > > information. Donations may be tax-deductible depending on your personal > > tax situation. > > > >Thank you for your consideration. > >Ok, it hit $1200, we're out of the running. I hope these systems go > to a good home, and don't disappear into the black hole of a private > collection. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA >
Re: LSSM is chasing this, was Re: General Data? Computer Equipment Auction - GSA
On 3/16/22 16:56, Dave McGuire via cctalk wrote: The LSSM is very interested in this machine for public display. It would complement the museum's collection of PDP-11s and other 16 bit machines. By "very interested", Mark means "is actively pursuing". Some of our donors are willing to foot the bill for the acquisition and subsequent retrieval trip; we've just about got it covered. For those who may be unaware, LSSM is a public minicomputer/mainframe museum in Pittsburgh, a registered 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, that has been open for about six years. The two DG machines in this auction will have a good home with us; it is our intention to restore them and place them on public exhibit for use. We have an established track record of "getting the job done" in this context. I'm letting this crowd know in case any of the current bidders are here and just trying to keep these machines out of the scrap stream, etc. We are donor-funded and don't have a lot to spend on this. If you would like to support us in this endeavor, we accept donations by check or via PayPal, see http://www.lssmuseum.org for more information. Donations may be tax-deductible depending on your personal tax situation. Thank you for your consideration. Ok, it hit $1200, we're out of the running. I hope these systems go to a good home, and don't disappear into the black hole of a private collection. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA
