Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Rod Smallwood

> Let me see what artwork I have

I'm curious as to what you'd be able to find. Like I said, I'm pretty sure
DEC never did an RK11-C inlay; the engineering drawings for the 19" indicator
panel (included in the RF11 engineering drawings:

  http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/RF11_EngrDrws_Oct70.pdf

on pp. 187-188) list many inlays, but not an RK11 one. Also, I've looked
through the RK11-C manual:

  http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/RK11-C_manual1971.pdf

but it contains no mention of an indicator panel, which it surely would if
there was one.


> From: Henk Gooijen

> I have *two* DX11 front panels with the 144 lamps & 4 'paddle'
> connections boards. ... Given you have 144 lamps panel with the RK11-C
> front, what would you do to light up the lamps?

Uhhh... plug the paddle boards on the end of the flat cables from the
indicator panel into the pre-wired slots in the RK11-C backplane (see the
RK11-C engineering drawings:

  http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/RK11-C_schemFeb1971.pdf

pg. 36)? :-)

Hence my comment that to make use of the _inlay_ I proposed to produce, one
had to have an RK11-C _and_ a spare DEC indicator panel...

Noel

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

I would be interested in an inlay - I have an RK11-C, but no indicator 
panel.


Also, if someone (else, presumably) does up a replica of the indicator 
panel board (perhaps with the option to use LEDs, with some resistor 
packs that could be bypassed for lamps), I'd be interested in that, too.


As a BTW, when I got my PDP-11/20 from the U Wisc. ECE dept. they had a 
home grown 11.5" high indicator panel that watched the bus signals and 
displayed the registers and PSW in LED's.  I disconnected it, but I 
think I left the connector in place on the 11/20 for it.


JRJ

On 12/5/2021 1:12 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

Let me get this out before the list gets shut down _again_...


There is discussion of doing a run of indicator panel inlays:

   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html

for the RK11-C (which is wired for an indicator panel, although as far as
I know, DEC never did the inlay).

If you're interested... you will need a standard DEC indicator panel light
panel (with flat cables with plug-in-cards on the ends). (I don't have any
insight on how to get one of those. It shouldn't be _too_ hard to make
replicas, but I'll leave that topic for the moment.)

All I am proposing to do is create the silk-screened inlay that turns a DEC
indicator panel into an RK11-C indicator panel (starting with a functional
indicator penel without the inlay).


All DEC indicator panels use the same actual light panel and flat
cables/plug-in-cards (which have one conductor per light in the light panel);
which light comes on is set by the way the backplane slots the
cables/plug-in-cards plug into are wired.

So from the prints, which give the wiring to the indicator panel slots, I
managed to work out what an RK11-C panel would look like, roughly (captions
are made up, but the light locations are accurate):

   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_inlay.txt

Starting with that, Dave Bridgham managed to whip up a rough approcimation of
what the inlay would look like:

   http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-c.pdf

We had put a certain amount of work into identifying a font which looks like
the one DEC used, back when; I worked with a member the UK to produce a bunch
of blank inlays (right size/shape, with the black paint on the back with the
holes for the lights). Dave then found someone who could print the white
lettering on the front, and this is what the result looked like, on an
'RK11-F' (the QSIC with RK emulation microcode) panel:

   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/jpg/RK11F-F.jpg

You can compare with an original DEC inlay (TC08, IIRC) here:

   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/jpg/DasBlinken2F.jpg

That's on the same light panel, just the inlay is changed. (The lights in the
lower one are from the light panel Dave produced for use with the QSIC; it's
totally incompatible, electrically, with the DEC originals; 4 wires, IIRC, run
the whole thing (data, clock, latch and a ground), as opposed to the 'wire per
light' of the DEC originals. Looks _just_ like the originals (which Tech Sq
used to have a lot of, BITD), though.


Anyway, if anyone is interested, the next step would be to find out who all
wants an RK11-C inlay, and work out _exactly_ what would be printed on it.

Noel

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Todd Goodman via cctalk]

Board cost depends on quantity, the more you have made, the lower the 
per board cost.


PCBCart.com charges a "tooling" charge for a new design.  They do look 
over the designs carefully and reorders don't incur that charge.


To get an idea, I had a run of Joerg Hoppe's DEC Flip-Chip Extender Hex 
+5 boards made (http://retrocmp.com/tools/dec-flip-chip-extenders)


I had 20 made.  My total (board cost, share of tooling, share of 
shipping and share of customs at that time) per board cost is $42.60 
(I'm selling them for $42 as I didn't get the customs charge until later).


On 12/6/2021 7:21 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
I haven't priced anything out yet.  My current project will have 
reasonably large sized board but will be using DIN 41612 style 
connectors (so I don't need edge fingers).  I haven't gone to 
different board vendors yet to see what pricing will be yet (still 
settling on board size and number of layers...right now it looks like 
it'll be 4 layers).


On 12/6/21 3:50 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
For other boards without gold fingers where would you recommend and 
how expensive for omnibus size boards?


On 12/6/2021 5:07 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:


On 12/6/21 2:45 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:



If I may8 ask a question.  I have never had boards made before. How 
do I find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I 
specify the board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should 
have gold fingers on the edge connectors?


Anything the size of an Omnibus board with gold fingers is *not* 
going to be "reasonable" especially if you want "hard gold" (which 
IMHO is the only way to go if you want reasonable life of the boards 
and sockets).


I've used Advanced Circuits for all my boards that needed gold 
fingers (they are *not* cheap...you've been warned).  When you 
submit your Gerber files, you also specify if you have edge fingers 
and how you want them plated.  I have been 100% satisfied with the 
boards that I've received from them.


TTFN - Guy

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Todd Goodman via cctalk]

I've used PCBCart.com to have thousands of boards produced. Mostly with 
gold fingers


They've done a good job with the boards, though they're mostly two-layer 
and not overly complicated.


You just tell them how many gold fingers you want (and if you get it 
wrong, their design check will clarify with you).


You also can specify if you want a chamfer on the edge and the degree of 
that chamfer


Things weren't good when the tariffs were in effect and the shippers 
didn't understand what the PCB tariffs applied to and what they didn't.  
That added a lot to the cost.


That's back to normal now but prices are up (like everything else).

Todd

On 12/6/2021 5:45 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
One of my zillions of projects is to redesign Oscar Vermilion's 
PdDP-8/I using the Raspberry Pi Pico board and these LEDs.


I would use one core for SIMH (the PDP-8 simulator) and one core for 
the Incandescent Emulation.


Right now I'm too busy finding parts for my real PDP-8/E and getting 
it running.


Think of the addressable LEDs and LEDs with the shift register built 
in .


When you are ready for a redesign, you might consider it for a cost 
reduction.


If I may8 ask a question.  I have never had boards made before. How do 
I find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I specify the 
board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should have gold fingers 
on the edge connectors?


Thanks and good luck,

  Mike

On 12/6/2021 2:07 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote:

On 12/6/21 10:36 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:



Each LED requires 24 bits of data.  That would be 3,456 bits.  The
WS2812B has a 300uS low start indication and 1.25 uS per bit. That
would mean it would take. 4.62mS to update the all of the LEDs.


If I'd known about those when I designed my boards, I might well have
gone that way.  They're surprisingly inexpensive even.

Instead, I ended up using a 16-LED driver chip that basically looks like
a shift-register.  I clock in the 144 bits (just on-off, no fancy
tri-color LEDs I'm afraid), toggle the latch signal, and there it is.
If you want to support more indicator panels, it's just a longer shift
register.  I then added RS422 driver chips for noise immunity and there
I was.

Dave

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Paul Anderson via cctalk]

If anyone needs a backplane or two please contact me off list.

Thanks, Paul

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 11:02 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > On 12/6/21 5:50 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
> > For other boards without gold fingers where would you recommend and how
> expensive for omnibus size boards?
>
>
> > On 12/06/2021 6:33 PM Jon Elson via cctalk 
> wrote:
> > I've been using PCBway in China. Usually, the DHL shipping is more
> expensive than the boards themselves. Larger boards will be less than US
> $20 each, if you get a few copies made.
>
> > On Dec 6, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk 
> wrote:
> > Another good option is jlcpcb.com in China.  They are very similar to
> PCBWay.  I and others I know have been very pleased with them.
>
> I’ve had good experiences lately with both pcbway and jlpcb.
>
>
>

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Fritz Mueller via cctalk]

> On 12/6/21 5:50 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
> For other boards without gold fingers where would you recommend and how 
> expensive for omnibus size boards?


> On 12/06/2021 6:33 PM Jon Elson via cctalk  wrote:
> I've been using PCBway in China. Usually, the DHL shipping is more expensive 
> than the boards themselves. Larger boards will be less than US $20 each, if 
> you get a few copies made.

> On Dec 6, 2021, at 5:52 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk  
> wrote:
> Another good option is jlcpcb.com in China.  They are very similar to PCBWay. 
>  I and others I know have been very pleased with them.

I’ve had good experiences lately with both pcbway and jlpcb.

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Will Cooke via cctalk]

> On 12/06/2021 6:33 PM Jon Elson via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 12/6/21 5:50 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
> > For other boards without gold fingers where would you
> > recommend and how expensive for omnibus size boards?
> I've been using PCBway in China. Usually, the DHL shipping
> is more expensive than the boards themselves. Larger boards
> will be less than US $20 each, if you get a few copies made.
> 
> Jon

Another good option is jlcpcb.com in China.  They are very similar to PCBWay.  
I and others I know have been very pleased with them.

Will

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

I am currently using kicad for the stuff from other PDP-8/omnibus 
creators but I intensely dislike the user interface paradigm on kicad.


We use Altium at work and I have been thinking about using that.

On 12/6/2021 6:44 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote:

On 12/6/21 17:45, Mike Katz wrote:

If I may8 ask a question.  I have never had boards made before. How 
do I find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I specify 
the board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should have gold 
fingers on the edge connectors?



I was planning to try PCBWay for my boards. They say they do hard gold 
fingers and they have a board assembly option that looks like it can 
do what I need. I haven't used them before so this will be an 
experiment in that direction as well.


If you're using KiCad for your designs (and if the Omnibus uses the 
standard DEC boards), I have templates for double and quad height  
boards that you're welcome to. Since I haven't yet made boards from 
them, check yourself that they're right before ordering but at least 
they'd be a start.


Dave

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[David Bridgham via cctalk]

On 12/6/21 17:45, Mike Katz wrote:

If I may8 ask a question.  I have never had boards made before. How do 
I find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I specify the 
board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should have gold fingers 
on the edge connectors?



I was planning to try PCBWay for my boards. They say they do hard gold 
fingers and they have a board assembly option that looks like it can do 
what I need. I haven't used them before so this will be an experiment in 
that direction as well.


If you're using KiCad for your designs (and if the Omnibus uses the 
standard DEC boards), I have templates for double and quad height  
boards that you're welcome to. Since I haven't yet made boards from 
them, check yourself that they're right before ordering but at least 
they'd be a start.


Dave

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

Thank you.

On 12/6/2021 6:33 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

On 12/6/21 5:50 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
For other boards without gold fingers where would you recommend and 
how expensive for omnibus size boards?


I've been using PCBway in China.  Usually, the DHL shipping is more 
expensive than the boards themselves. Larger boards will be less than 
US $20 each, if you get a few copies made.


Jon

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 12/6/21 5:50 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
For other boards without gold fingers where would you 
recommend and how expensive for omnibus size boards?


I've been using PCBway in China.  Usually, the DHL shipping 
is more expensive than the boards themselves. Larger boards 
will be less than US $20 each, if you get a few copies made.


Jon

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Guy Sotomayor via cctalk]

I haven't priced anything out yet.  My current project will have 
reasonably large sized board but will be using DIN 41612 style 
connectors (so I don't need edge fingers).  I haven't gone to different 
board vendors yet to see what pricing will be yet (still settling on 
board size and number of layers...right now it looks like it'll be 4 
layers).


On 12/6/21 3:50 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
For other boards without gold fingers where would you recommend and 
how expensive for omnibus size boards?


On 12/6/2021 5:07 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:


On 12/6/21 2:45 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:



If I may8 ask a question.  I have never had boards made before. How 
do I find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I specify 
the board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should have gold 
fingers on the edge connectors?


Anything the size of an Omnibus board with gold fingers is *not* 
going to be "reasonable" especially if you want "hard gold" (which 
IMHO is the only way to go if you want reasonable life of the boards 
and sockets).


I've used Advanced Circuits for all my boards that needed gold 
fingers (they are *not* cheap...you've been warned).  When you submit 
your Gerber files, you also specify if you have edge fingers and how 
you want them plated.  I have been 100% satisfied with the boards 
that I've received from them.


TTFN - Guy





--
TTFN - Guy

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

For other boards without gold fingers where would you recommend and how 
expensive for omnibus size boards?


On 12/6/2021 5:07 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:


On 12/6/21 2:45 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:



If I may8 ask a question.  I have never had boards made before. How 
do I find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I specify 
the board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should have gold 
fingers on the edge connectors?


Anything the size of an Omnibus board with gold fingers is *not* going 
to be "reasonable" especially if you want "hard gold" (which IMHO is 
the only way to go if you want reasonable life of the boards and 
sockets).


I've used Advanced Circuits for all my boards that needed gold fingers 
(they are *not* cheap...you've been warned).  When you submit your 
Gerber files, you also specify if you have edge fingers and how you 
want them plated.  I have been 100% satisfied with the boards that 
I've received from them.


TTFN - Guy

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Guy Sotomayor via cctalk]

On 12/6/21 2:45 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:



If I may8 ask a question.  I have never had boards made before. How do 
I find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I specify the 
board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should have gold fingers 
on the edge connectors?


Anything the size of an Omnibus board with gold fingers is *not* going 
to be "reasonable" especially if you want "hard gold" (which IMHO is the 
only way to go if you want reasonable life of the boards and sockets).


I've used Advanced Circuits for all my boards that needed gold fingers 
(they are *not* cheap...you've been warned).  When you submit your 
Gerber files, you also specify if you have edge fingers and how you want 
them plated.  I have been 100% satisfied with the boards that I've 
received from them.


TTFN - Guy

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

Ethan,

I completely agree with reducing the strip size.

One of my projects is a redesign of Oscar Vermilion's PiDP-8/I using 
addressable LEDs.  I was thinking of breaking the 88 LEDs into separate 
strands based on function (step counter & Multiplier Quotient [17 LEDs], 
accumulator and link [13 LEDs], Memory Buffer [12 LEDs], Memory Address 
[12 LEDs], Data & Instruction Fields and Program Counter [18 bits], 
Instruction & States [17 :LEDs]).  That would require 6 GPIOs.


I don't know if the PIO can handle 6 separate GPIOs like that but it's 
worth a try.


   Mike

On 12/6/2021 3:05 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 10:36 AM Mike Katz via cctalk
 wrote:

One dumb suggestion to make it easier to control 144 lamps is to use
addressable LEDs.  You can control them in banks or all in a single
serial line.  If you use a single line you can control all of them with
just 1 GPIO.

Each LED requires 24 bits of data.  That would be 3,456 bits.  The
WS2812B has a 300uS low start indication and 1.25 uS per bit.  That
would mean it would take. 4.62mS to update the all of the LEDs.

If 200Hz isn't fast enough for updates, and you have more GPIOs, you
can implement this as, say, 4 strands and write out nybbles.  There
are cheap video wall that use MCUs with DMA engines and pump out 8
strips at once.


Since these are tri-color LEDs you can control the color and simulate
incandescent lamps

Definitely


Another advantage to the LEDs is once they are set, you don't have to
talk to them again until you need to change something.

Yep.  Self-latching.


I am going to use a Raspberry Pi Pico RP2040 CPU's PIO co-processor to
drive the LEDS from a 432 byte array in memory.  All I do is update
which LEDs I want to change and the PIO DMAs the entire array to the LED
chain once every 10mS (or slower depending on need).

Sounds like a great approach.  I have a couple of Picos but haven't
dug into the PIO engines yet.

I've been working with WS2812B LEDs for a while now and enjoyed
watching the cost per LED plummet from a few years ago.

-ethan

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

One of my zillions of projects is to redesign Oscar Vermilion's PdDP-8/I 
using the Raspberry Pi Pico board and these LEDs.


I would use one core for SIMH (the PDP-8 simulator) and one core for the 
Incandescent Emulation.


Right now I'm too busy finding parts for my real PDP-8/E and getting it 
running.


Think of the addressable LEDs and LEDs with the shift register built in .

When you are ready for a redesign, you might consider it for a cost 
reduction.


If I may8 ask a question.  I have never had boards made before. How do I 
find a good board house that is reasonable and how do I specify the 
board especially for the PDP-8 Omnibus which should have gold fingers on 
the edge connectors?


Thanks and good luck,

  Mike

On 12/6/2021 2:07 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote:

On 12/6/21 10:36 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:



Each LED requires 24 bits of data.  That would be 3,456 bits.  The
WS2812B has a 300uS low start indication and 1.25 uS per bit.  That
would mean it would take. 4.62mS to update the all of the LEDs.


If I'd known about those when I designed my boards, I might well have
gone that way.  They're surprisingly inexpensive even.

Instead, I ended up using a 16-LED driver chip that basically looks like
a shift-register.  I clock in the 144 bits (just on-off, no fancy
tri-color LEDs I'm afraid), toggle the latch signal, and there it is.
If you want to support more indicator panels, it's just a longer shift
register.  I then added RS422 driver chips for noise immunity and there
I was.

Dave

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 5:28 PM Paul Koning  wrote:
> Raspberry Pico PIO engines are seriously cool.  I used them to implement 
> DDCMP synchronous line protocol in a small USB device wrapped around one of 
> those devices.  That includes the "integral mode" modulate/clock 
> recovery/demodulate functions.

Ooh!  That's neat.  Sounds like it could also become a nice Bisync or
SDLC serial adapter for IBM protocols (something from _my_ background)

But it should probably get its own thread.  ;-)

-ethan

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Dec 6, 2021, at 4:05 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 10:36 AM Mike Katz via cctalk
>  wrote:
> 
> Sounds like a great approach.  I have a couple of Picos but haven't
> dug into the PIO engines yet.

Raspberry Pico PIO engines are seriously cool.  I used them to implement DDCMP 
synchronous line protocol in a small USB device wrapped around one of those 
devices.  That includes the "integral mode" modulate/clock recovery/demodulate 
functions.

Something I haven't tried but appears possible: 10 Mb/s Ethernet using the PIO. 
 At least full duplex, and perhaps even half duplex.  Not a whole lot of point 
in that, I suppose.  

paul

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 10:36 AM Mike Katz via cctalk
 wrote:
> One dumb suggestion to make it easier to control 144 lamps is to use
> addressable LEDs.  You can control them in banks or all in a single
> serial line.  If you use a single line you can control all of them with
> just 1 GPIO.
>
> Each LED requires 24 bits of data.  That would be 3,456 bits.  The
> WS2812B has a 300uS low start indication and 1.25 uS per bit.  That
> would mean it would take. 4.62mS to update the all of the LEDs.

If 200Hz isn't fast enough for updates, and you have more GPIOs, you
can implement this as, say, 4 strands and write out nybbles.  There
are cheap video wall that use MCUs with DMA engines and pump out 8
strips at once.

> Since these are tri-color LEDs you can control the color and simulate
> incandescent lamps

Definitely

> Another advantage to the LEDs is once they are set, you don't have to
> talk to them again until you need to change something.

Yep.  Self-latching.

> I am going to use a Raspberry Pi Pico RP2040 CPU's PIO co-processor to
> drive the LEDS from a 432 byte array in memory.  All I do is update
> which LEDs I want to change and the PIO DMAs the entire array to the LED
> chain once every 10mS (or slower depending on need).

Sounds like a great approach.  I have a couple of Picos but haven't
dug into the PIO engines yet.

I've been working with WS2812B LEDs for a while now and enjoyed
watching the cost per LED plummet from a few years ago.

-ethan

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[David Bridgham via cctalk]

On 12/6/21 10:36 AM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:


> Each LED requires 24 bits of data.  That would be 3,456 bits.  The
> WS2812B has a 300uS low start indication and 1.25 uS per bit.  That
> would mean it would take. 4.62mS to update the all of the LEDs.


If I'd known about those when I designed my boards, I might well have
gone that way.  They're surprisingly inexpensive even.

Instead, I ended up using a 16-LED driver chip that basically looks like
a shift-register.  I clock in the 144 bits (just on-off, no fancy
tri-color LEDs I'm afraid), toggle the latch signal, and there it is. 
If you want to support more indicator panels, it's just a longer shift
register.  I then added RS422 driver chips for noise immunity and there
I was.

Dave

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[David Bridgham via cctalk]

On 12/6/21 10:13 AM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:


> If this RK11-C “blinkenlight” panel would also become available in a 60% 
> scaled format,
> I would buy it immediately. It would be an “übercool” addition to the 
> PiDP-11/70 and
> my 60% scaled (“working”) RK05 drive. I only modified the files pdp11_cpu and 
> pdp11_rk05,
> and added my own code to handle the 2 switches, 8 indicators and the door / 
> disk loading.
> see https://www.pdp-11.nl/pidp1170/rk05/rk05startpage.html (at the bottom of 
> the page).
> I will check whether it could be scaled to 60% using standard 3 mm 
> (warm-white) LEDs
> (if those exist, else I would probably use yellow-ish).


I do agree that it would be very cool to add a scaled indicator panel to
your PiDP-11 and scaled RK05.  You'd have to do new scaled circuit
boards to be driven from the RPi and a new scaled bezel and light-shield
as well as the inlay.  It's all possible but I don't think I'll be doing
it.  You are most welcome, though, to the work I've done on any and all
of those pieces if you want to take them and scale them down.

If you watched the little video I posted of my early blinking lights,
you probably noticed how blue those white LEDs were.  I've since
switched to a different LED that looks, at least to my eye, a whole lot
better.  In these pictures you can see a comparison.

http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/new-led.jpg

http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/new-led-2.jpg

Dave

Reproduction DEC 144-lamp indicator panels (was Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?)

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 9:42 AM David Bridgham via cctalk
 wrote:
> The inlays are mostly not done with any tools I have.  I do the graphics
> with Inkscape.  Rod made up the blanks with silk screening.  Then I have
> the white printing done at a printshop I found who has a large, flatbed
> printer that can print white ink.  I do have some ideas about how I
> might try to make up blanks with a laser etcher I have access to but at
> the moment we have an ample supply.

Cool.

> Also, I've experimented with making my own bezels out of PVC board from
> Home Depot using a CNC router.  In the pictures below, the yellowed
> bezels are old DEC bezels while the white ones are ones I made.  I
> figured that if we ever get the QSIC shipping and people want indicator
> panels (I hope they'll want indicator panels), I'd rather not depend on
> them ripping apart old DEC bezels to make this work.

Yes.  I'd rather not demolish my only indicator panel.  I was planning
on demolishing a blank (I have a few short blanks, but most people do
not)

> Anyway, I'd be most happy to have another person with more tools to help
> build bits and pieces of this stuff.  I've noticed that as I gained
> access to different tools, I came up with different ideas about how to
> make things.  I didn't think the laser etcher was all that useful until
> I started using it.

I have a small 40W laser etcher that I essentially haven't used since
I have had access to large-format 80-120W laser cutters.

As for tools, I can rent a 4'x8' Shopbot router at our local
Makerspace that can turn out the light blocking bar or, from your
file, the frame.  We also have a local company (IC3D) that makes
cubic-meter 3D Printers and makes their own filament from pellets,
keeping costs down.  The founders are friends of mine and I've helped
repair sensors on their manufacturing line.  If I had an STL, I could
get a bid on what it would take to 3D print one.  It wouldn't be as
smooth as a machined PVC foam milled one, but it would be strong.
With a little post processing, a 3D Printed frame may give an adequate
look.  Just a possibility.  I haven't worked with PVC foam much but I
understand the principle.

>  Now I want to use it for everything.  Turns out it
> can't quite handle 3/8" Delrin; it just melts it and makes a mess.

That sounds like a power problem.  Normally, Delrin lasers quite
nicely, at least at 80W.  Thick stuff is hard in any printer because
of lenses, beam diffusion, etc.  We sometimes have problems with 1/2"
material of any kind in ours.  I've done some stuff in 2 passes, one
high, one low (refocusing/repositioning Z axis between job runs).  We
also have multiple lenses for different focal points.  One is only
good for etching/surface work, and one is good for cutting 3/8" and
thicker materials.  We usually use the middle one since 99% of what
goes into our laser is 3-6mm stock.

> Speaking of help, if anyone wants to review the QSIC design, I'd welcome
> that.  This is by far the most complex circuit board I've ever designed.

I could take a look at it, I have some background in making Qbus and
Unibus interfaces, but how useful I'd be depends on what kind of
feedback you are looking for.

> Back to indicator panels, here's a picture showing a bit of the
> evolution of my indicator panels...
>
> http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/indicator-panel-stack.jpg
>
> ... The only real thing I'd like to
> change is the gloss.  Somehow, DEC's inlay is as flat as flat can be.

I did notice that.  I have no idea what to recommend.  AFAIK, DEC just
used an acrylic with a specific surface texture.  The only stuff I can
get is like what you have - smooth as window glass.

Cheers,

-ethan

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Mike Katz via cctalk]

One dumb suggestion to make it easier to control 144 lamps is to use 
addressable LEDs.  You can control them in banks or all in a single 
serial line.  If you use a single line you can control all of them with 
just 1 GPIO.


Each LED requires 24 bits of data.  That would be 3,456 bits.  The 
WS2812B has a 300uS low start indication and 1.25 uS per bit.  That 
would mean it would take. 4.62mS to update the all of the LEDs.


Since these are tri-color LEDs you can control the color and simulate 
incandescent lamps (Simh and the PiDP-8/i do this with LED PWM via an 
x/y matrix).


Another advantage to the LEDs is once they are set, you don't have to 
talk to them again until you need to change something.


I am going to use a Raspberry Pi Pico RP2040 CPU's PIO co-processor to 
drive the LEDS from a 432 byte array in memory.  All I do is update 
which LEDs I want to change and the PIO DMAs the entire array to the LED 
chain once every 10mS (or slower depending on need).


On 12/6/2021 9:13 AM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:

Van: David Bridgham via cctalk<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: maandag 6 december 2021 15:52
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

On 12/5/21 4:43 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:


I am definitely interested. Never saw the RK-11C (except once on eBay some 15 
years ago)!
However, I have *two* DX11 front panels with the 144 lamps & 4 ”paddle” 
connections boards.
I developed a 100x160 mm (Euro-card size) PCB with a PIC18F252 and 10 MCP23S17 
ICs.
You serially send a command to the PIC and the PIC controls the MCP23S17 
outputs.
Per command you control 8 lamps. On the PCB is one difficult part: a 4 position 
one-slot block
to put the 4 paddle boards in.

Fun.  That's a way to get some more lights into your life.  I like it.



Given you have 144 lamps panel with the RK11-C front, what would you do to 
light up the lamps?


I think the only reason to have an RK11-C inlay is if you have an
RK11-C.  Otherwise I can't see that it makes much sense.

The one other place I might, maybe, possibly see one being used is along
with one of our QSICs or USICs.  I could add an option to drive an
RK11-C inlay if someone really thought that was what they wanted but the
RK11-F inlay that we came up with really is a better match and more
functional (which is why we came up with it) as well as supporting the
RP11 implementation that I'm sure I'll get working any day now (snort).

Dave

If this RK11-C “blinkenlight” panel would also become available in a 60% scaled 
format,
I would buy it immediately. It would be an “übercool” addition to the 
PiDP-11/70 and
my 60% scaled (“working”) RK05 drive. I only modified the files pdp11_cpu and 
pdp11_rk05,
and added my own code to handle the 2 switches, 8 indicators and the door / 
disk loading.
see https://www.pdp-11.nl/pidp1170/rk05/rk05startpage.html (at the bottom of 
the page).
I will check whether it could be scaled to 60% using standard 3 mm (warm-white) 
LEDs
(if those exist, else I would probably use yellow-ish).

Henk, PA8PDP

RE: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Henk Gooijen via cctalk]

Van: David Bridgham via cctalk<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: maandag 6 december 2021 15:52
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

On 12/5/21 4:43 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:

> I am definitely interested. Never saw the RK-11C (except once on eBay some 15 
> years ago)!
> However, I have *two* DX11 front panels with the 144 lamps & 4 ”paddle” 
> connections boards.
> I developed a 100x160 mm (Euro-card size) PCB with a PIC18F252 and 10 
> MCP23S17 ICs.
> You serially send a command to the PIC and the PIC controls the MCP23S17 
> outputs.
> Per command you control 8 lamps. On the PCB is one difficult part: a 4 
> position one-slot block
> to put the 4 paddle boards in.

Fun.  That's a way to get some more lights into your life.  I like it.


> Given you have 144 lamps panel with the RK11-C front, what would you do to 
> light up the lamps?


I think the only reason to have an RK11-C inlay is if you have an
RK11-C.  Otherwise I can't see that it makes much sense.

The one other place I might, maybe, possibly see one being used is along
with one of our QSICs or USICs.  I could add an option to drive an
RK11-C inlay if someone really thought that was what they wanted but the
RK11-F inlay that we came up with really is a better match and more
functional (which is why we came up with it) as well as supporting the
RP11 implementation that I'm sure I'll get working any day now (snort).

Dave

If this RK11-C “blinkenlight” panel would also become available in a 60% scaled 
format,
I would buy it immediately. It would be an “übercool” addition to the 
PiDP-11/70 and
my 60% scaled (“working”) RK05 drive. I only modified the files pdp11_cpu and 
pdp11_rk05,
and added my own code to handle the 2 switches, 8 indicators and the door / 
disk loading.
see https://www.pdp-11.nl/pidp1170/rk05/rk05startpage.html (at the bottom of 
the page).
I will check whether it could be scaled to 60% using standard 3 mm (warm-white) 
LEDs
(if those exist, else I would probably use yellow-ish).

Henk, PA8PDP

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[David Bridgham via cctalk]

On 12/5/21 4:43 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:

> I am definitely interested. Never saw the RK-11C (except once on eBay some 15 
> years ago)!
> However, I have *two* DX11 front panels with the 144 lamps & 4 ”paddle” 
> connections boards.
> I developed a 100x160 mm (Euro-card size) PCB with a PIC18F252 and 10 
> MCP23S17 ICs.
> You serially send a command to the PIC and the PIC controls the MCP23S17 
> outputs.
> Per command you control 8 lamps. On the PCB is one difficult part: a 4 
> position one-slot block
> to put the 4 paddle boards in.

Fun.  That's a way to get some more lights into your life.  I like it.


> Given you have 144 lamps panel with the RK11-C front, what would you do to 
> light up the lamps?


I think the only reason to have an RK11-C inlay is if you have an
RK11-C.  Otherwise I can't see that it makes much sense.

The one other place I might, maybe, possibly see one being used is along
with one of our QSICs or USICs.  I could add an option to drive an
RK11-C inlay if someone really thought that was what they wanted but the
RK11-F inlay that we came up with really is a better match and more
functional (which is why we came up with it) as well as supporting the
RP11 implementation that I'm sure I'll get working any day now (snort).

Dave

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[David Bridgham via cctalk]

On 12/5/21 3:24 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:

> This would be really cool as a debugging tool
> more than just as amazing lights.


A great lead-in to my story.  I was working away on the RK11
implementation in the QSIC and when I felt like taking a break but still
wanted to get something done, I'd work on the indicator panel.  Of
course, the indicator panel ended working before the RK11.  Just having
144 lights that I could assign to any purpose was useful but then came
the day when the RK11 was mostly working.  I loaded up an RK11 exerciser
program that Noel wrote and just sat back to bask in the glow of the
blinking lights.  It was a good feeling.

Then I noticed something that wasn't right.  Even though the exerciser
was working, I saw a pattern in the lights that showed up a bug in my
implementation.  I'd really only implemented the indicator panel because
I thought it was fun but it lead me to a bug to fix right off.

Here's a short video clip of the indicator panel in operation and
showing that bug.  I'll leave this for a day or two (or until I remember
again or someone asks) and then say what it is I saw.  I think anyone
with a reasonable familiarity with the QBUS will be able to pick it out
though I'll say that "Latched Address" is the address "half" of the
data/Address Lines, that is the value of those signals when SYNC is
asserted.

http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/ip-full.mp4


> P.S. - not to derail things, but definitely loop me in on the (future)
> thread for making reproductions.  I have access to some tools that
> might make parts of it easier.


The inlays are mostly not done with any tools I have.  I do the graphics
with Inkscape.  Rod made up the blanks with silk screening.  Then I have
the white printing done at a printshop I found who has a large, flatbed
printer that can print white ink.  I do have some ideas about how I
might try to make up blanks with a laser etcher I have access to but at
the moment we have an ample supply.

Also, I've experimented with making my own bezels out of PVC board from
Home Depot using a CNC router.  In the pictures below, the yellowed
bezels are old DEC bezels while the white ones are ones I made.  I
figured that if we ever get the QSIC shipping and people want indicator
panels (I hope they'll want indicator panels), I'd rather not depend on
them ripping apart old DEC bezels to make this work.

Anyway, I'd be most happy to have another person with more tools to help
build bits and pieces of this stuff.  I've noticed that as I gained
access to different tools, I came up with different ideas about how to
make things.  I didn't think the laser etcher was all that useful until
I started using it.  Now I want to use it for everything.  Turns out it
can't quite handle 3/8" Delrin; it just melts it and makes a mess. 
Speaking of help, if anyone wants to review the QSIC design, I'd welcome
that.  This is by far the most complex circuit board I've ever designed.


Back to indicator panels, here's a picture showing a bit of the
evolution of my indicator panels.  The video above shows it really
early, when I just taped a paper inlay to the circuit boards.  Then the
bottom panel in this picture is taping that paper inlay to an MDF light
shield.  The top panel is using one of Rod's blanks with paper labels
taped to it.  And then the third panel down is a printed inlay like
we're talking about now for the RK11-C.  The second indicator panel is a
TC08 inlay that I borrowed from Noel to use as a model as I worked on
the graphics for our own.

http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/indicator-panel-stack.jpg

Here's a close-up of the TC08 and our printed inlay.  I'm rather pleased
with how it looks, I have to admit.  The only real thing I'd like to
change is the gloss.  Somehow, DEC's inlay is as flat as flat can be. 
There is no glare to it whatsoever while ours are quite glossy.  I've
looked at frosted acrylic and it's a little better though really it just
diffuses the glare, it doesn't eliminate it.  I've also tried some
spray-on frosting which helps a little but it also has a tendency for
its solvents to melt the printing that's already there so that's a bit
fraught.

http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/indicator-panel-printed.jpg

Dave

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Josh Dersch via cctalk]

On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 12:24 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 2:12 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk
>  wrote:
>
> > Anyway, if anyone is interested, the next step would be to find out who
> all
> > wants an RK11-C inlay, and work out _exactly_ what would be printed on
> it.
>
> Put me down for one.  I've had this RK11-C for a long time and haven't
> done anything with it.


Ditto me.  I snagged an RK11-C earlier this year and my plan is to get to
restoring it sometime next year.

- Josh



> I have always planned to put it back on the
> 11/20 it came with, but first I need to get the 11/20 going so that's
> pushed down the RK11-C.  This would be really cool as a debugging tool
> more than just as amazing lights.
>
> -ethan
>
> P.S. - not to derail things, but definitely loop me in on the (future)
> thread for making reproductions.  I have access to some tools that
> might make parts of it easier.
>

RE: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Henk Gooijen via cctalk]

Van: Noel Chiappa via cctalk
Verzonden: zondag 5 december 2021 20:12
Aan: cctalk@classiccmp.org
CC: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Onderwerp: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?


Anyway, if anyone is interested, the next step would be to find out who all
wants an RK11-C inlay, and work out _exactly_ what would be printed on it.

Noel

I am definitely interested. Never saw the RK-11C (except once on eBay some 15 
years ago)!
However, I have *two* DX11 front panels with the 144 lamps & 4 ”paddle” 
connections boards.
I developed a 100x160 mm (Euro-card size) PCB with a PIC18F252 and 10 MCP23S17 
ICs.
You serially send a command to the PIC and the PIC controls the MCP23S17 
outputs.
Per command you control 8 lamps. On the PCB is one difficult part: a 4 position 
one-slot block
to put the 4 paddle boards in.

Given you have 144 lamps panel with the RK11-C front, what would you do to 
light up the lamps?

Henk, PA8PDP

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Dec 5, 2021, at 3:24 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> I have both an RK11-C, _and_ a DX11 light panel sitting around (got it
> loose some years back)

Now *that* is a wonderfully obscure device.  I wonder if any software for it 
exists anywhere.

paul

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 2:12 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk
 wrote:
> There is discussion of doing a run of indicator panel inlays:
> for the RK11-C (which is wired for an indicator panel, although as far as
> I know, DEC never did the inlay).
>
> If you're interested... you will need a standard DEC indicator panel light
> panel (with flat cables with plug-in-cards on the ends). (I don't have any
> insight on how to get one of those. It shouldn't be _too_ hard to make
> replicas, but I'll leave that topic for the moment.)

I have both an RK11-C, _and_ a DX11 light panel sitting around (got it
loose some years back)

> Starting with that, Dave Bridgham managed to whip up a rough approcimation of
> what the inlay would look like:
>
>   http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-c.pdf

Looks cool.

> Anyway, if anyone is interested, the next step would be to find out who all
> wants an RK11-C inlay, and work out _exactly_ what would be printed on it.

Put me down for one.  I've had this RK11-C for a long time and haven't
done anything with it.  I have always planned to put it back on the
11/20 it came with, but first I need to get the 11/20 going so that's
pushed down the RK11-C.  This would be really cool as a debugging tool
more than just as amazing lights.

-ethan

P.S. - not to derail things, but definitely loop me in on the (future)
thread for making reproductions.  I have access to some tools that
might make parts of it easier.

Re: RK11-C indicator panel inlays?

[Rod Smallwood via cctalk]

Yes I have the blanks for these.

Let me see what artwork I have

Rod


On 05/12/2021 19:12, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

Let me get this out before the list gets shut down _again_...


There is discussion of doing a run of indicator panel inlays:

   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html

for the RK11-C (which is wired for an indicator panel, although as far as
I know, DEC never did the inlay).

If you're interested... you will need a standard DEC indicator panel light
panel (with flat cables with plug-in-cards on the ends). (I don't have any
insight on how to get one of those. It shouldn't be _too_ hard to make
replicas, but I'll leave that topic for the moment.)

All I am proposing to do is create the silk-screened inlay that turns a DEC
indicator panel into an RK11-C indicator panel (starting with a functional
indicator penel without the inlay).


All DEC indicator panels use the same actual light panel and flat
cables/plug-in-cards (which have one conductor per light in the light panel);
which light comes on is set by the way the backplane slots the
cables/plug-in-cards plug into are wired.

So from the prints, which give the wiring to the indicator panel slots, I
managed to work out what an RK11-C panel would look like, roughly (captions
are made up, but the light locations are accurate):

   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_inlay.txt

Starting with that, Dave Bridgham managed to whip up a rough approcimation of
what the inlay would look like:

   http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/inlay-rk11-c.pdf

We had put a certain amount of work into identifying a font which looks like
the one DEC used, back when; I worked with a member the UK to produce a bunch
of blank inlays (right size/shape, with the black paint on the back with the
holes for the lights). Dave then found someone who could print the white
lettering on the front, and this is what the result looked like, on an
'RK11-F' (the QSIC with RK emulation microcode) panel:

   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/jpg/RK11F-F.jpg

You can compare with an original DEC inlay (TC08, IIRC) here:

   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/jpg/DasBlinken2F.jpg

That's on the same light panel, just the inlay is changed. (The lights in the
lower one are from the light panel Dave produced for use with the QSIC; it's
totally incompatible, electrically, with the DEC originals; 4 wires, IIRC, run
the whole thing (data, clock, latch and a ground), as opposed to the 'wire per
light' of the DEC originals. Looks _just_ like the originals (which Tech Sq
used to have a lot of, BITD), though.


Anyway, if anyone is interested, the next step would be to find out who all
wants an RK11-C inlay, and work out _exactly_ what would be printed on it.

Noel