subject:"Re\: ka... ching\!"

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 6:34 PM, dwight  wrote:
> Surely someone can come up with a VideoBrain.

I have heard of the VideoBrain, but I have never seen one in person.

Excellent suggestion should one turn up, though I doubt it would
trigger much nostalgia in most attendees - fascination, surely, but
not nostalgia.

-ethan

Re: Gaming on old systems (was Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!])

2016-10-10 Thread dwight

Surely someone can come up with a VideoBrain.

Dwight

From: cctalk <cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org> on behalf of Ethan Dicks 
<ethan.di...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 1:56:40 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Gaming on old systems (was Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!])

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 4:58 AM, Peter Corlett <ab...@cabal.org.uk> wrote:
> Find better games :)
>
> The theme of this list means that I should recommend some retro games and
> gaming systems...

I am actively seeking lists of favorite games on all platforms prior
to 1995.  Specifically, things that require Windows and a Pentium and
newer are out of bounds.  I'm attempting to breathe some excitement
into a retro-gaming meetup I hold a few times a year at our
hackerspace.  I'm already bringing the hardware - to date, Commodore
PET, Commodore 64, Apple II, Atari 2600, PDP-8 (emulated for now), and
curses-based UNIX games, and would like to add more platforms.  I'm
especially interested in any favorites that run on dumb terminals (I
have numerous ones to bring in, and have a VT220 already in the
collection).

Yes, I know a bunch of games that run on those platforms.  I'm looking
for other people's favorites because that is what will stimulate
interest in the meetups.  I already bring my own favorites, but
learning what other people remember fondly - tapping into their
nostalgia - will be a big help.

In bounds are any machines from the 70s and 80s that a) are common
enough to lay hands on or b) have a reasonable emulator on modern
platforms.  I will probably add DOS games to the list, but that's not
the focus at first - 8-bit microcomputers and minicomputers are at the
top of the list.  Emulation via simh is acceptable but I'll try to dig
up the original hardware where possible.

If you've played anything in the past 3 years, I'd especially like to
hear about it since that speaks to enjoyment and replayability.  If
you like it, someone here will probably like it too.

Thanks for any and all suggestions!

-ethan

Gaming on old systems (was Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!])

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 4:58 AM, Peter Corlett  wrote:
> Find better games :)
>
> The theme of this list means that I should recommend some retro games and
> gaming systems...

I am actively seeking lists of favorite games on all platforms prior
to 1995.  Specifically, things that require Windows and a Pentium and
newer are out of bounds.  I'm attempting to breathe some excitement
into a retro-gaming meetup I hold a few times a year at our
hackerspace.  I'm already bringing the hardware - to date, Commodore
PET, Commodore 64, Apple II, Atari 2600, PDP-8 (emulated for now), and
curses-based UNIX games, and would like to add more platforms.  I'm
especially interested in any favorites that run on dumb terminals (I
have numerous ones to bring in, and have a VT220 already in the
collection).

Yes, I know a bunch of games that run on those platforms.  I'm looking
for other people's favorites because that is what will stimulate
interest in the meetups.  I already bring my own favorites, but
learning what other people remember fondly - tapping into their
nostalgia - will be a big help.

In bounds are any machines from the 70s and 80s that a) are common
enough to lay hands on or b) have a reasonable emulator on modern
platforms.  I will probably add DOS games to the list, but that's not
the focus at first - 8-bit microcomputers and minicomputers are at the
top of the list.  Emulation via simh is acceptable but I'll try to dig
up the original hardware where possible.

If you've played anything in the past 3 years, I'd especially like to
hear about it since that speaks to enjoyment and replayability.  If
you like it, someone here will probably like it too.

Thanks for any and all suggestions!

-ethan

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-10 Thread jim stephens




On 10/10/2016 1:38 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:

Douglas Adams was instrumental in a few games.
But, somebody once asked him what he most liked to play with on his Mac. He
said The Desktop.

It's like "Hunt the Wumpus" but with no Wumpus...

-ethan

At times I've been near playing "Whack-a-mole" on my machines with a 
real mallet.  Beat them into submission.


I like easy games, too, and in this modified game, there is only one mole.

thanks
jim

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-10 Thread jim stephens




On 10/10/2016 1:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 10/10/2016 01:21 PM, jim stephens wrote:



If you are talking about the arcade operation here in this thread,
that was separate from the programming staff for the consoles.

This would have been about 1974, so probably arcade stuff.  As a matter
of fact, I recall the job adverts from Atari in the Mercury-News from
that time made the same pronouncement of not wanting mainframe people.

--Chuck

He joined Atari in 78.  He moved to a manager spot in 81.
Thanks
Jim

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:
> Douglas Adams was instrumental in a few games.
> But, somebody once asked him what he most liked to play with on his Mac. He
> said The Desktop.

It's like "Hunt the Wumpus" but with no Wumpus...

-ethan

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Corey Cohen  wrote:
> Actually a lot of late 70's and early 80's computers were bought by a lot of 
> ham radio guys for their setups.
>
> The only people I knew in the late 70's or early 80's doing "Business" things 
> at home with personal computers were doing word processing and spreadsheets 
> from 9 to 5 and video games from 5:15 till midnight.

In the late 70s, I was a kid and the $1000 32K PET we got was used for
games and me learning about hardware and programming and developing my
nerd skills.  We did not own a CBM disk drive or printer for it (too
expensive after buying the CPU) so that limited its "business" use.
By 1982, I was writing code for the Commodore 64 as a contractor, so
things shifted to perhaps 50/50 games and "work".  Around that time, I
got my first PDP-8 which was back to games and expanding my skillset.
In 1985, I added a PDP-11/23 (made affordable by borrowing peripherals
from the PDP-8/a) and it was all games and such until that led to
paying work on RT-11 in 1986.  Games first, business to follow.

> Sure if you were rich enough to have a PDP or System 32 for your home 
> business you never ever played games, but no matter what their tax return 
> said they bought a personal computer for, they were used for games after 
> hours.

Absolutely.  By the mid-1980s, I was using a VAX all day at work, and
we had games on it too - EMPIRE.EXE was a favorite, then I grabbed
some stuff off of comp.sources.games and expanded my skillset by
learning how to port UNIX code to VMS and getting millebourne and
other BSD games to run.  It was awesome when I got the InfoTaskForce
z-machine pinfocom to compile and run on VMS.  $120,000 minicomputer
playing Zork!

> Games have always been part of detoxing after a long day of business on 
> personal computers.

Absolutely.  I used to love visiting family friends who had
microcomputers at home in the 1970s.  Evenings was all games.

So admittedly, people did not choose their business systems based on
what games there were, but pretty much everywhere I've worked, games
appeared on whatever systems we had.

-ethan

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-10 Thread Eric Smith

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 2:21 PM, jim stephens  wrote:
> One thing you got on the 2600, was almost nothing to do your programming on.
> There was the rom with lots of code space, but there was I think either 256
> or 512 bytes of ram total, and 1/2 of it was owned by the "system" such as
> it was.  Fun environment to code for.  The processor was 6502.

It was actually even worse!  The RAM was only 128 bytes total.
However, none of it was dedicated; the programmer could, and in fact
must, use it however they saw fit. There wasn't a "system"; the 2600
programmer was responsible for doing *everything*. It was only one
small step removed from bit-banging the video; the TIA chip did a
little bit of the work for you. Coding for the 2600 has been called
"racing the beam", in reference to having to output video data in time
for the electron beam of the CRT, and there's a good book about the
history of the 2600 using that title. The 2600 is an amazing study in
minimalist hardware.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-10 Thread Chuck Guzis

On 10/10/2016 01:21 PM, jim stephens wrote:

> If you are talking about the arcade operation here in this thread,
> that was separate from the programming staff for the consoles.

This would have been about 1974, so probably arcade stuff.  As a matter
of fact, I recall the job adverts from Atari in the Mercury-News from
that time made the same pronouncement of not wanting mainframe people.

--Chuck

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-10 Thread jim stephens




On 10/10/2016 1:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 10/10/2016 11:32 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote:


Apologies for saying this, but it almost sounds like to me that you
are validating their "no mainframe programmers wanted" stance. ;)


Not really--it seems to me that a great deal of early work with
microprocessors was successfully done by mainframe people.

No, I think that Nolan Bushnell was repulsed by the high level of
organization in the mainframe business and wanted more of a "bootleg"
software operation; i.e. not products that would last for years.

It was a bit ironic, because most of those feeding quarters into the
racecar game machine at Andy Capp's were, in fact, mainframe people.

--Chuck


A friend of mine was hired by them and moved up there.  He did the 
following games for the 2600, BERZERK, Mario Bothers, SwordQuest 
(Earthworld), Gravitar, and Elevator Action.


He went from Microdata to Atari.  His background was in assembly and 
basic.  While @ Microdata he wrote an 8080 emulator which would do a 
fair amount which ran in MPL on the 3200 systems we had, so that was 
something that surely helped him @ Atari.  His main work @ Microdata was 
diagnostic writing, as far as the "day" job.


I would say that Microdata with 2000+ employees was certainly a 
"mainframe" sized organization, and that didn't stop them from taking 
him on.


Leaving his name off the post, you can google it, so that he doesn't 
have yet another spam catcher in the archives of this list.


One thing you got on the 2600, was almost nothing to do your programming 
on.  There was the rom with lots of code space, but there was I think 
either 256 or 512 bytes of ram total, and 1/2 of it was owned by the 
"system" such as it was.  Fun environment to code for.  The processor 
was 6502.


If you are talking about the arcade operation here in this thread, that 
was separate from the programming staff for the consoles.

Thanks
jim

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-10 Thread Chuck Guzis

On 10/10/2016 11:32 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote:

> Apologies for saying this, but it almost sounds like to me that you
> are validating their "no mainframe programmers wanted" stance. ;)

Not really--it seems to me that a great deal of early work with
microprocessors was successfully done by mainframe people.

No, I think that Nolan Bushnell was repulsed by the high level of
organization in the mainframe business and wanted more of a "bootleg"
software operation; i.e. not products that would last for years.

It was a bit ironic, because most of those feeding quarters into the
racecar game machine at Andy Capp's were, in fact, mainframe people.

--Chuck

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-10 Thread Geoffrey Oltmans

On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 8:42 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> On 10/08/2016 06:13 PM, TeoZ wrote:
> >
> > Everybody has something they do to chill out, some drink or jog, or
> > play games.
>
> Certainly, but playing computer games after a hard day in front of the
> number-cruncher seems like a terrible way to detox.
>
> [...]



> I do recall that there was a small start-up that occupied part of the
> lower floor of the "Prudential building' on Moffet Park Drive--we had
> the upper floor as overflow from the main SVLOPS building. I think they
> called themselves "Atari".  A couple of us wandered into their offices
> during lunchtime  and asked about job opportunities.  We were rebuffed
> with a firm "no mainframe programmers wanted".
>

Apologies for saying this, but it almost sounds like to me that you are
validating their "no mainframe programmers wanted" stance. ;)

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-10 Thread Ian S. King

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 6:07 PM, Brad H <vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net>
wrote:

>
>
>  Original message 
> From: "Ian S. King" <isk...@uw.edu>
> Date: 2016-10-09  5:08 PM  (GMT-08:00)
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
>
> On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Brad H <vintagecomputer@
> bettercomputing.net>
> wrote:
>
> So the Cliff Notes version of this is I need to find a copy of SWTPC's
> assembler?  (Pretty sure I've seen it referenced somewhere)


If you want to run natively, i.e. assemble programs on the 6800, yes.  I'm
using asm68c to cross-assemble from a *nix machine.  It generates S-records
that can be transferred to the 6800 over the serial line.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]



 Original message 
From: "Ian S. King" <isk...@uw.edu> 
Date: 2016-10-09  5:08 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> 
Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!] 

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Brad H <vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net>
wrote:

>
>
>  Original message 
> From: "Ian S. King" <isk...@uw.edu>
> Date: 2016-10-09  2:30 PM  (GMT-08:00)
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
>
> On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 2:37 AM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad
> H
> > > Sent: 09 October 2016 07:41
> > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > > <cctalk@classiccmp.org>; jwsm...@jwsss.com
> > > Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'd like to learn more about programming, esp for my 6800.  It'd be fun
> > to test
> > > its limits and see what uses I can find for the graphics board I got. I
> > just don't
> > > understand how they programmed the thing. All the hex stuff throws me
> > > off.  :)
> >
> > Does it have a serial interface and memory. In which case it was probably
> > programmed in Assembler.
> > When I started with 6800 board and 256 bytes of memory, and toggle
> > switches to load it I used to hand assemble the programs to get the
> > hex/binary.
> > I soon got bored of the toggle switches and built a little box with an
> old
> > calculator keyboard and display and some TTL so I could enter data
> quickly.
> >
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > I recently acquired a SWTPC 6800, a machine I remember from when it was
> new.  :-)  There are many programming environments available for it - I'm
> working to get Forth running on mine, then I'll branch out.
>
> It's been said that the 6800 inherited a lot of ideas from the PDP-8, and I
> agree with that to some extent.  The ISA is actually very clean and neat,
> once you wrap your head around it - I used to program 6800 assembler
> professionally, my first paid job as a programmer!  Unlike the PDP-8, I/O
> is memory-mapped.  Depending on what monitor ROM you have (if any), you may
> have different system services available.  One very useful system is the
> one that can read S-records from the serial input, allowing you to easily
> transfer programs onto the machine.
>
> If you want to grok the 6800 in fullness, there are online scans of
> Motorola's programming manual for the device.  Another great resource is
> the swtpc.com site, even if you don't have a SWTPC machine (what do you
> have?).
>
> Have fun with it!  Cheers -- Ian
>
> --
> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
> The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
> Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
> Narrative Through a Design Lens
>
> Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
> Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>
>
> University of Washington
>
> >There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon >could go to China."
>
> I've an original SWTPC 6800.  Also have an ASCI System X and a Tektronix
> 6800 board bucket.  Right now I'm enjoying working with the SWTPC.  I'm
> trying to deck it out as completely as one could have.
> I don't quite understand assembly.. I assume to program in that, as with
> BASIC you need to load an 'assembler' language first?  I tried this with my
> Digital Group system with 5 different tapes marked 'assembler' but never
> got them to load.  Not sure if I understand the concept.


The assembler is a program that transforms (somewhat) human-readable text
into machine code.  There a few ways to go about structuring this
workflow.  So far I've been using a cross-assembler that runs on a
different system - for example, the original UNIX was cross-assembled on a
GE-635 mainframe for its PDP-7 target.  There are native assemblers as
well.  These often assumed some sort of secondary store, whether punched
tape, magtape or disk, that might hold intermediate stages of assembly and
certainly the final product.  A common workflow was:

- load native assembler program from 
- start native assembler program
- tell native assembler program where to find the source (which media)
- native assembler reads in source, transforms it to object (machine code),
sends the results to 
- programmer lo

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-09 Thread Charles Anthony

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Ian S. King  wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Brad H  bettercomputing.net>
> wrote:
>
>   So far I've been using a cross-assembler that runs on a
> different system - for example, the original UNIX was cross-assembled on a
> GE-635 mainframe for its PDP-7 target.
>

Was the cross assembler running under GCOS? If so, are any copies of it
known to exist?

-- Charles

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-09 Thread Ian S. King

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 3:07 PM, Brad H <vintagecompu...@bettercomputing.net>
wrote:

>
>
>  Original message 
> From: "Ian S. King" <isk...@uw.edu>
> Date: 2016-10-09  2:30 PM  (GMT-08:00)
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
>
> On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 2:37 AM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad
> H
> > > Sent: 09 October 2016 07:41
> > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > > <cctalk@classiccmp.org>; jwsm...@jwsss.com
> > > Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I'd like to learn more about programming, esp for my 6800.  It'd be fun
> > to test
> > > its limits and see what uses I can find for the graphics board I got. I
> > just don't
> > > understand how they programmed the thing. All the hex stuff throws me
> > > off.  :)
> >
> > Does it have a serial interface and memory. In which case it was probably
> > programmed in Assembler.
> > When I started with 6800 board and 256 bytes of memory, and toggle
> > switches to load it I used to hand assemble the programs to get the
> > hex/binary.
> > I soon got bored of the toggle switches and built a little box with an
> old
> > calculator keyboard and display and some TTL so I could enter data
> quickly.
> >
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > I recently acquired a SWTPC 6800, a machine I remember from when it was
> new.  :-)  There are many programming environments available for it - I'm
> working to get Forth running on mine, then I'll branch out.
>
> It's been said that the 6800 inherited a lot of ideas from the PDP-8, and I
> agree with that to some extent.  The ISA is actually very clean and neat,
> once you wrap your head around it - I used to program 6800 assembler
> professionally, my first paid job as a programmer!  Unlike the PDP-8, I/O
> is memory-mapped.  Depending on what monitor ROM you have (if any), you may
> have different system services available.  One very useful system is the
> one that can read S-records from the serial input, allowing you to easily
> transfer programs onto the machine.
>
> If you want to grok the 6800 in fullness, there are online scans of
> Motorola's programming manual for the device.  Another great resource is
> the swtpc.com site, even if you don't have a SWTPC machine (what do you
> have?).
>
> Have fun with it!  Cheers -- Ian
>
> --
> Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
> The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
> Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
> Narrative Through a Design Lens
>
> Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
> Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>
>
> University of Washington
>
> >There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon >could go to China."
>
> I've an original SWTPC 6800.  Also have an ASCI System X and a Tektronix
> 6800 board bucket.  Right now I'm enjoying working with the SWTPC.  I'm
> trying to deck it out as completely as one could have.
> I don't quite understand assembly.. I assume to program in that, as with
> BASIC you need to load an 'assembler' language first?  I tried this with my
> Digital Group system with 5 different tapes marked 'assembler' but never
> got them to load.  Not sure if I understand the concept.


The assembler is a program that transforms (somewhat) human-readable text
into machine code.  There a few ways to go about structuring this
workflow.  So far I've been using a cross-assembler that runs on a
different system - for example, the original UNIX was cross-assembled on a
GE-635 mainframe for its PDP-7 target.  There are native assemblers as
well.  These often assumed some sort of secondary store, whether punched
tape, magtape or disk, that might hold intermediate stages of assembly and
certainly the final product.  A common workflow was:

- load native assembler program from 
- start native assembler program
- tell native assembler program where to find the source (which media)
- native assembler reads in source, transforms it to object (machine code),
sends the results to 
- programmer loads object from  and runs it

If you're loading an assembler program from tape, you probably need to give
the monitor a 'go' instruction once it's completed (that's how MIKBUG
works, anyway).  The assembler may prompt for the input source or may just
assume

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

 Original message 
From: "Ian S. King" <isk...@uw.edu> 
Date: 2016-10-09  2:30 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> 
Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!] 

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 2:37 AM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H
> > Sent: 09 October 2016 07:41
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk@classiccmp.org>; jwsm...@jwsss.com
> > Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
> >
> >
> >
> > I'd like to learn more about programming, esp for my 6800.  It'd be fun
> to test
> > its limits and see what uses I can find for the graphics board I got. I
> just don't
> > understand how they programmed the thing. All the hex stuff throws me
> > off.  :)
>
> Does it have a serial interface and memory. In which case it was probably
> programmed in Assembler.
> When I started with 6800 board and 256 bytes of memory, and toggle
> switches to load it I used to hand assemble the programs to get the
> hex/binary.
> I soon got bored of the toggle switches and built a little box with an old
> calculator keyboard and display and some TTL so I could enter data quickly.
>
>
> Dave
>
> I recently acquired a SWTPC 6800, a machine I remember from when it was
new.  :-)  There are many programming environments available for it - I'm
working to get Forth running on mine, then I'll branch out.

It's been said that the 6800 inherited a lot of ideas from the PDP-8, and I
agree with that to some extent.  The ISA is actually very clean and neat,
once you wrap your head around it - I used to program 6800 assembler
professionally, my first paid job as a programmer!  Unlike the PDP-8, I/O
is memory-mapped.  Depending on what monitor ROM you have (if any), you may
have different system services available.  One very useful system is the
one that can read S-records from the serial input, allowing you to easily
transfer programs onto the machine.

If you want to grok the 6800 in fullness, there are online scans of
Motorola's programming manual for the device.  Another great resource is
the swtpc.com site, even if you don't have a SWTPC machine (what do you
have?).

Have fun with it!  Cheers -- Ian

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

>There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon >could go to China."

I've an original SWTPC 6800.  Also have an ASCI System X and a Tektronix 6800 
board bucket.  Right now I'm enjoying working with the SWTPC.  I'm trying to 
deck it out as completely as one could have.
I don't quite understand assembly.. I assume to program in that, as with BASIC 
you need to load an 'assembler' language first?  I tried this with my Digital 
Group system with 5 different tapes marked 'assembler' but never got them to 
load.  Not sure if I understand the concept.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-09 Thread Ian S. King

On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 2:37 AM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H
> > Sent: 09 October 2016 07:41
> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk@classiccmp.org>; jwsm...@jwsss.com
> > Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
> >
> >
> >
> > I'd like to learn more about programming, esp for my 6800.  It'd be fun
> to test
> > its limits and see what uses I can find for the graphics board I got. I
> just don't
> > understand how they programmed the thing. All the hex stuff throws me
> > off.  :)
>
> Does it have a serial interface and memory. In which case it was probably
> programmed in Assembler.
> When I started with 6800 board and 256 bytes of memory, and toggle
> switches to load it I used to hand assemble the programs to get the
> hex/binary.
> I soon got bored of the toggle switches and built a little box with an old
> calculator keyboard and display and some TTL so I could enter data quickly.
>
>
> Dave
>
> I recently acquired a SWTPC 6800, a machine I remember from when it was
new.  :-)  There are many programming environments available for it - I'm
working to get Forth running on mine, then I'll branch out.

It's been said that the 6800 inherited a lot of ideas from the PDP-8, and I
agree with that to some extent.  The ISA is actually very clean and neat,
once you wrap your head around it - I used to program 6800 assembler
professionally, my first paid job as a programmer!  Unlike the PDP-8, I/O
is memory-mapped.  Depending on what monitor ROM you have (if any), you may
have different system services available.  One very useful system is the
one that can read S-records from the serial input, allowing you to easily
transfer programs onto the machine.

If you want to grok the 6800 in fullness, there are online scans of
Motorola's programming manual for the device.  Another great resource is
the swtpc.com site, even if you don't have a SWTPC machine (what do you
have?).

Have fun with it!  Cheers -- Ian

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-09 Thread Mouse

>> Still don't. Playing a computer game is about as entertaining to me
>> as putting my money into an online slot machine.
> Find better games :)

Heh.  Not everybody thinks the same way, and some people just don't
react to games the way you (or I) do.

> The theme of this list means that I should recommend some retro games
> and gaming systems, but those old games generally lacked depth and
> tried to cover it up by making the game insanely difficult and
> relying on extremely good timing and motor skills.

To a point, perhaps.  But some of the old games were just _good_.  My
own favourite is Tempest, one of the few colour vector games.  24
_kilo_bytes for the entire game, and it's still one of the most
engaging games I've ever played.

> I rather enjoyed the two Portal games,

Me too - well, the first one; I think I haven't played the second.  But
I like puzzle games.  I also greatly enjoyed Swapper - the first new
game mechanic I'd seen since Portal, and its author(s?) built a highly
engaging puzzle game around it.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

RE: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-09 Thread Fred Cisin


> Find better games :)
Nope, not even.  Has as much appeal as base jumping.  I'd rather be


On Sun, 9 Oct 2016, tony duell wrote:

I think I'm with you on this one. The only computer games I find even


Douglas Adams was instrumental in a few games.
But, somebody once asked him what he most liked to play with on his Mac. 
He said The Desktop.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-09 Thread COURYHOUSE

no real interest in  playing games though the curiously ofseeing  star 
trek game on  friends  Digital Group Computer   ( had little screen in the 
front of it... I want  one  for SMECC   display  working or  not)
group and  getting a baudot   teletype  model 14  lead to me starting a  
computer  company  in 1979...

The big and best  game for me was THE HARDWARE  and   running  timeshare 
systems  ) hp-2000 then  later  hp-3000  later   also became  full line  
Independent HP PC  products  dealer but  that  was  just selling  stuff   
not 
 the  feel of  thrill and adventure   the  other  phases  had!

Ed#   _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  

In a message dated 10/9/2016 9:07:45 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
a...@p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes:

>  > Find better games :)
> 
> Nope, not even.  Has as much  appeal as base jumping.  I'd rather be

I think I'm with you on  this one. The only computer games I find even
mildly interesting are ones  that involve thought and/or hackery to
complete. I found the HP67 Games Pac  (A set of programs for a 
handheld calculator with a numeric display) to be  much more
entertaining than anything on a modern console.

But even  so, I even enjoy those games that much. Relaxation for
me is reading the  service manual for something I don't own,
figuring out what the schematics  really mean, etc. Or mindlessly
stuffing a PCB.  

-tony
=

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]



Flipping is just treasure hunting by another name.  Estate and storage locker 
sales are the modern equivalent of digging for pirate gold.  I think people 
worldwide love that stuff but particularly Americans because they have that 
brash adventurer spirit embedded in the national character.


Sent from my Samsung device

 Original message 
From: et...@757.org 
Date: 2016-10-09  8:46 AM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> 
Cc: gene...@classiccmp.org 
Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!] 

>>>  Just like the car collecting, comic book collection and just about 
>>> most other hobbies when they mature.  The same type of people who

The comic book market crashed due to the flipping side of it as far as I 
know. When it changes from a hobby to a speculative mania, I suppose that 
is when things eventually explode?

They can go on a lot longer if backed by the government and low interest 
rates, see speculation in housing. Plus weak returns in other markets.

Unlike basic needs like the housing market bubble (which has yet to crash, 
but probably will which isn't a bad thing) hobbies like Classic Computers 
probably have interest waves. Certain people who grew up with such and 
such hold it dear. Eventually interest in it will probably fade as the 
people with memories of the subject fufill reliving the experience, or 
die. And there is a lot of money to be made, then vendors might swoop in 
to make cash (see Roland and Yamaha with their recent Botique recreations 
of vintage analog synthesizers.)

Also for much of the younger generation housing costs are so high (and 
perhaps job opportunities weak) that collecting things becomes more of a 
burden. It costs a lot of time to move stuff from apartment to apartment, 
and money to store it. Buying a house with low prospects of job stability 
is also a risk and can damage chances of relocating for jobs after 
layoffs. The damage of the years of offshoring and outsourcing is hidden 
behind the national debt, student loan debt and housing debt.

Also there is some sort of American obsession with flipping stuff. A lot 
less shows about building new things versus shows about flipping stuff (be 
it Pawn shops, Storage Units, American Pickers type stuff, and of course 
-- housing flip shows.)

RE: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-09 Thread tony duell


> > Find better games :)
> 
> Nope, not even.  Has as much appeal as base jumping.  I'd rather be

I think I'm with you on this one. The only computer games I find even
mildly interesting are ones that involve thought and/or hackery to
complete. I found the HP67 Games Pac (A set of programs for a 
handheld calculator with a numeric display) to be much more
entertaining than anything on a modern console.

But even so, I even enjoy those games that much. Relaxation for
me is reading the service manual for something I don't own,
figuring out what the schematics really mean, etc. Or mindlessly
stuffing a PCB. 

-tony

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-09 Thread ethan

 Just like the car collecting, comic book collection and just about 
most other hobbies when they mature.  The same type of people who


The comic book market crashed due to the flipping side of it as far as I 
know. When it changes from a hobby to a speculative mania, I suppose that 
is when things eventually explode?


They can go on a lot longer if backed by the government and low interest 
rates, see speculation in housing. Plus weak returns in other markets.


Unlike basic needs like the housing market bubble (which has yet to crash, 
but probably will which isn't a bad thing) hobbies like Classic Computers 
probably have interest waves. Certain people who grew up with such and 
such hold it dear. Eventually interest in it will probably fade as the 
people with memories of the subject fufill reliving the experience, or 
die. And there is a lot of money to be made, then vendors might swoop in 
to make cash (see Roland and Yamaha with their recent Botique recreations 
of vintage analog synthesizers.)


Also for much of the younger generation housing costs are so high (and 
perhaps job opportunities weak) that collecting things becomes more of a 
burden. It costs a lot of time to move stuff from apartment to apartment, 
and money to store it. Buying a house with low prospects of job stability 
is also a risk and can damage chances of relocating for jobs after 
layoffs. The damage of the years of offshoring and outsourcing is hidden 
behind the national debt, student loan debt and housing debt.


Also there is some sort of American obsession with flipping stuff. A lot 
less shows about building new things versus shows about flipping stuff (be 
it Pawn shops, Storage Units, American Pickers type stuff, and of course 
-- housing flip shows.)

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-09 Thread Chuck Guzis

On 10/09/2016 01:58 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 08, 2016 at 04:20:55PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: [...]
>> Still don't. Playing a computer game is about as entertaining to me
>> as putting my money into an online slot machine.
> 
> Find better games :)

Nope, not even.  Has as much appeal as base jumping.  I'd rather be
working my shop banging on some sheet metal or playing tuba--or
splitting firewood.

We're all different--and some of us don't like to play games.

--Chuck

Re: ka... ching!

2016-10-09 Thread Peter Corlett

On Mon, Oct 03, 2016 at 08:28:50AM -0700, Ali wrote:
[Amiga 3000s]
>> I'm not surprised that someone would _ask_ EUR800, but are they *getting*
>> it?

They relisted it at EUR720 and now again for EUR695, so I assume that they
would accept at EUR650 offer. I had made a EUR500 offer last time, maybe I'll
offer EUR450 this time to make a point.

It's not like I don't already have several other Amigas to be getting on with
until realisation dawns on this seller.

> And just like that the price of the A3000 goes up. :) Although, to be fair
> though it seems that things do sell for more overseas. I've always chucked it
> up to a lack of supply but that really would not explain the Amiga. I would
> think they would be more plentiful in Europe...

The A3000 was extremely rare in the UK as most Amigas were bought for gaming so
it was mainly A500s and A1200s. I found sales figures for Germany where this
eBay seller is, and the A3000 was by far the least popular machine there with
just 8,300 sales, versus 1.1M for the A500 and 100k for the A1200.

RE: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-09 Thread Dave G4UGM

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad H
> Sent: 09 October 2016 07:41
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>; jwsm...@jwsss.com
> Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
> 
> 
> 
> I'd like to learn more about programming, esp for my 6800.  It'd be fun to 
> test
> its limits and see what uses I can find for the graphics board I got. I just 
> don't
> understand how they programmed the thing. All the hex stuff throws me
> off.  :)

Does it have a serial interface and memory. In which case it was probably 
programmed in Assembler. 
When I started with 6800 board and 256 bytes of memory, and toggle switches to 
load it I used to hand assemble the programs to get the hex/binary.
I soon got bored of the toggle switches and built a little box with an old 
calculator keyboard and display and some TTL so I could enter data quickly.


Dave

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-09 Thread jim stephens


On 10/9/2016 1:58 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:

Playing a computer game is about as entertaining to me as
>putting my money into an online slot machine.

Find better games
I'm more interested in the technology of the implementing games, and the 
coming VR that
might be interesting.  Remote reality is now possibly in reach. 
Certainly forms of it are used
at JPL for the Mars Rover projects.   You can go in a room, wonder 
around and bend down and
look at things with their telepresence technologies.  For quite a long 
time.


Also though maybe not a video game, Microsoft FS-X is amazing.  I'd love 
to have the room, resources
and time to hook up a reasonable simulator.  But going around shooting 
bad guys and looking at random
scores, boring.  Adventure pretty much was the diversion, never have 
looked back.  What I get from that
game doesn't need graphics, and has as much fun to me as you could have 
with all the gamer stuff.


I thank games for bringing out incredible power to desktop systems, I 
use them for build servers and
the like.  Games, not so much.  I wish I had time to get into the GPU 
processing, but maybe someday,

right now not enough time.

--
Note change in email address.  Please use reply-to
address.  TWC is changing their email and this may
change again reply to is jwsm...@jwsss.com

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-09 Thread Peter Corlett

On Sat, Oct 08, 2016 at 04:20:55PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
[...]
> Still don't. Playing a computer game is about as entertaining to me as
> putting my money into an online slot machine.

Find better games :)

The theme of this list means that I should recommend some retro games and
gaming systems, but those old games generally lacked depth and tried to cover
it up by making the game insanely difficult and relying on extremely good
timing and motor skills. I never really got on with retro games.

There are still plenty of mindless first-person shooters with no depth coming
out, but at least there are more gems to be found amongst the rough. I rather
enjoyed the two Portal games, which superficially look like shooters -- your
interface with its universe is called a Portal gun -- it's really a 3D puzzle
game with some interesting plot twists. Goat Simulator is a bizarre sandbox in
which there is the minimum of game elements required to hold all the satirical
easter eggs together.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]



I'd like to learn more about programming, esp for my 6800.  It'd be fun to test 
its limits and see what uses I can find for the graphics board I got. I just 
don't understand how they programmed the thing. All the hex stuff throws me 
off.  :)


Sent from my Samsung device

 Original message 
From: william degnan <billdeg...@gmail.com> 
Date: 2016-10-08  8:54 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: jwsm...@jwsss.com, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk@classiccmp.org> 
Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!] 

To me, getting old computers up and running, or programming on them *is*
the game as far as I am concerned.  More fun than most packaged software
games.  I have made my own games, and I certainly play computer games, but
that's not why I am interested in vintage computing.

I just spent a few hours tonight attempting to network my NeXTstation color
computer and get to the post of accessing the vcfed.org forum so I could
post a message on there.  Just for fun, using ancient dawn of the WWW
technology.    Feels like a game to me, there is no practical purpose to
doing this other than enjoyment.

My point is for those of us who pooh pooh vintage gamers not to take
themselves too seriously.  We're all just playing games if you ask me.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-08 Thread Ian S. King

On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 8:54 PM, william degnan  wrote:

> To me, getting old computers up and running, or programming on them *is*
> the game as far as I am concerned.  More fun than most packaged software
> games.  I have made my own games, and I certainly play computer games, but
> that's not why I am interested in vintage computing.
>
> I just spent a few hours tonight attempting to network my NeXTstation color
> computer and get to the post of accessing the vcfed.org forum so I could
> post a message on there.  Just for fun, using ancient dawn of the WWW
> technology.Feels like a game to me, there is no practical purpose to
> doing this other than enjoyment.
>
> My point is for those of us who pooh pooh vintage gamers not to take
> themselves too seriously.  We're all just playing games if you ask me.
>

Maybe thirty years ago, I had a friend who was into computers as a hobby,
as was I, and both of us also worked with them in our day jobs.  We'd get
together and he'd tell me about his latest game acquisition.  Then it was
my turn to talk, and I'd tell him about hacking the 0.98 Linux kernel to do
something I thought was interesting.

I've never been a gamer, but always played games down in the kernel.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-08 Thread william degnan

To me, getting old computers up and running, or programming on them *is*
the game as far as I am concerned.  More fun than most packaged software
games.  I have made my own games, and I certainly play computer games, but
that's not why I am interested in vintage computing.

I just spent a few hours tonight attempting to network my NeXTstation color
computer and get to the post of accessing the vcfed.org forum so I could
post a message on there.  Just for fun, using ancient dawn of the WWW
technology.Feels like a game to me, there is no practical purpose to
doing this other than enjoyment.

My point is for those of us who pooh pooh vintage gamers not to take
themselves too seriously.  We're all just playing games if you ask me.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-08 Thread jim stephens



On 10/8/2016 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

So computers were not part of my formative years and that's perhaps why
I don't see the attraction of computer games--or Twitter, for that matter.
I had the luck to have an Olivetti Programma 101 when I was in 5th grade 
in the early 60's.


I had learned about programming, stored programming, and the like from 
programming it.  It had the capability to create commands in its storage 
registers and execute them, and I credit that bit as a help when I later 
took up programming as such things were not a mystery.


The bad news is now that I'm playing in an expensive playground, but 
luckily have 2 of them as well as spares.  It is an expensive 
neighborhood, headed to the cost of the Lisa parts market unfortunately.


thanks
Jim

--
Note change in email address.  Please use reply-to
address.  TWC is changing their email and this may
change again reply to is jwsm...@jwsss.com

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

On 10/08/2016 07:00 PM, Brad H wrote:

> When I was a kid we had the IBM PCjr through PS/2.  Concurrently I
> had my own Commodore 64.  Up until we got our AT, the Commodore was
> the game machine.  

I suspect that you might have put your finger on the nub of it all.  I
did not have any familiarity with computers in either elementary school
or high school.   I finally got to use a computer in college, but it was
all punch cards and I/O clerks.  Classes needing computation were taught
using a slide rule.

So computers were not part of my formative years and that's perhaps why
I don't see the attraction of computer games--or Twitter, for that matter.

--Chuck

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-08 Thread Brad H

 Original message 
From: Chuck Guzis <ccl...@sydex.com> 
Date: 2016-10-08  2:17 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> 
Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!] 

On 10/08/2016 09:46 AM, j...@cimmeri.com wrote:

> I think the people who complain about "Altairs just sitting on
> desks" might be doing so for at least one reason being because a
> particular purpose seems to violate the original spirit, intent, and
> purpose behind the creation.  I hear that a lot eg. "it's a shame
> it's just sitting there, not being used."
> 
> It's when other purposes come in, and begin to make this hobby
> purpose more difficult to engage in and "unobtainium", that the
> hobbyists lament.  If there were enough for everyone, then there'd be
> no complaining.

I have to confess to a certain amount of bemusement when I witness the
phenomenon of game-obsession with early PCs.  With the exception of
"home" systems, such as Commodore and perhaps Apple and the like, I knew
very few people who *purchased* a PC for game playing.  Did people play
games on PCs?  Sure--but that was rarely the reason that anyone ponied
up for a 1970s or 80s multiple-kilobuck system.  Mind you, this was
around the time that one could purchase a Porsche 914 for little more
than $3000.

Most of the people I knew purchased a PC to do business applications
(AR, AP, GL, inventory, payroll or word processing) or worked with
spreadsheets.   Yet, very little of this is ever discussed on fora such
as the Vintage Computer Federation site.

Indeed, I think it's safe to speculate that the bulk of Intel Inboard
cards were sold to those running Lotus 1-2-3.

After we're all gone, what will future generations think of us? That we
developed new hardware and software solely to play games?

Wow.

--Chuck
>
When I was a kid we had the IBM PCjr through PS/2.  Concurrently I had my own 
Commodore 64.  Up until we got our AT, the Commodore was the game machine.  
There were lots of PC versions of games out there but they *sucked* in terms of 
graphics and sound (we also lacked a joystick for the PCs) compared to the 
Commodore.  King's Quest was the earliest game I played on PC.. but I don't 
recall it being available on Commodore at the time.  One of my best memories 
was of the computer lab at our school.  We had 30 64s up there chained to a 
4040 (I think) via C64 Link expanders.  We had a game day every so many weeks 
and had all kinds of fun trying to get games to load via that setup.
I remember thinking of gaming on 'Dad's computer' as an odd idea.  But then 
Test Drive came out.  Then our school dumped the Commodores and went to PCs.  
People started showing up at school for game day with PC games like Empire.  
And then the PC finally started to catch up and surpass the Commodore in 
quality and the games reached a level the Commodore couldn't do.  Between that 
and the ease of loading things quickly from hard drive.. the C64 ended up going 
into hibernation.  After that it was all about upgrading the PC to run Falcon 
or some such acceptably.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-08 Thread Charles Anthony

On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> On 10/08/2016 06:13 PM, TeoZ wrote:
> >
> > Everybody has something they do to chill out, some drink or jog, or
> > play games.
>
> Certainly, but playing computer games after a hard day in front of the
> number-cruncher seems like a terrible way to detox.
>
> For some years, for me, it was bicycling and bridge.

Heh. For me it was games, bicycling and bridge.

Since I was no good at computer games or bridge, the bicycling came to
dominate.

As the jobs got more and more stressful, more and more miles.

PBP 95 finisher

(Sorry for drifting off-topic.. twiggys to collectors to obsession to
workplace stress to displacement activities)

-- Charles

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

On 10/08/2016 06:13 PM, TeoZ wrote:
> 
> Everybody has something they do to chill out, some drink or jog, or
> play games.

Certainly, but playing computer games after a hard day in front of the
number-cruncher seems like a terrible way to detox.

For some years, for me, it was bicycling and bridge.  The SF Bay area
used to be mostly semi-rural--a bicyclist's dream with light traffic.
Cherries from Sunnyvale, Italian prunes from Santa Clara, wine from the
hills around south San Jose.

Then later music and charitable work.  But computer games?  No, there
are better ways to spend your life.

Remember when IBM did a product announcement for their PS/2 line?  The
demonstration software did not include, to the best of my knowledge,
"Where in the world is Carmen Sandiego", but rather employed a
copy-protected hack of Lotus 1-2-3 (the PS/2 5.25" drive wasn't yet
available).

Serious stuff, not games.

I do recall that there was a small start-up that occupied part of the
lower floor of the "Prudential building' on Moffet Park Drive--we had
the upper floor as overflow from the main SVLOPS building. I think they
called themselves "Atari".  A couple of us wandered into their offices
during lunchtime  and asked about job opportunities.  We were rebuffed
with a firm "no mainframe programmers wanted".

I did do a port from a DECsystem 10 tape with the "Adventure" game on it
to CDC SCOPE--it was all FORTRAN and data statements.  But since I had
the travel tables already, it ceased to be interesting after a few times
through.   So much for my interest in games.

So color me a raving loon.  :)

--Chuck

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-08 Thread TeoZ



Everybody has something they do to chill out, some drink or jog, or play 
games.


Anyway my first computers in the 80's were for gaming (Timex 2068 and then a 
C64). Both were cheap systems. I went to a 286 for school work and since I 
sold the C64 to help pay for it I did some gaming on it. Most of my computer 
upgrades in the 90's were for added speed in whatever apps I was using and 
it also helped with gaming. There was a point where I started upgrading just 
for gaming and that ended mostly around 2000 where I started falling behind 
the bleeding edge curve. I don't really care for new games but I do play the 
old ones.


Everybody collects different things for different reasons, but quite a bit 
of the 286-Pentiums end up being snagged for gaming. I think I am one of the 
few people who bother with vintage application software for old systems 
purchased for non gaming reasons.



-Original Message- 
From: Chuck Guzis

Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2016 7:20 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

That's probably why I'm borderline loony in my old age--I never bothered
to detox.

Still don't.  Playing a computer game is about as entertaining to me as
putting my money into an online slot machine.

--Chuck 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

On 10/08/2016 03:13 PM, Corey Cohen wrote:

> Games have always been part of detoxing after a long day of business
> on personal computers.

That's probably why I'm borderline loony in my old age--I never bothered
to detox.

Still don't.  Playing a computer game is about as entertaining to me as
putting my money into an online slot machine.

--Chuck

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ
> On Oct 8, 2016, at 5:17 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
>> On 10/08/2016 09:46 AM, j...@cimmeri.com wrote:
>> 
>> I think the people who complain about "Altairs just sitting on
>> desks" might be doing so for at least one reason being because a
>> particular purpose seems to violate the original spirit, intent, and
>> purpose behind the creation.  I hear that a lot eg. "it's a shame
>> it's just sitting there, not being used."
>> 
>> It's when other purposes come in, and begin to make this hobby
>> purpose more difficult to engage in and "unobtainium", that the
>> hobbyists lament.  If there were enough for everyone, then there'd be
>> no complaining.
> 
> I have to confess to a certain amount of bemusement when I witness the
> phenomenon of game-obsession with early PCs.  With the exception of
> "home" systems, such as Commodore and perhaps Apple and the like, I knew
> very few people who *purchased* a PC for game playing.  Did people play
> games on PCs?  Sure--but that was rarely the reason that anyone ponied
> up for a 1970s or 80s multiple-kilobuck system.  Mind you, this was
> around the time that one could purchase a Porsche 914 for little more
> than $3000.
> 
> Most of the people I knew purchased a PC to do business applications
> (AR, AP, GL, inventory, payroll or word processing) or worked with
> spreadsheets.   Yet, very little of this is ever discussed on fora such
> as the Vintage Computer Federation site.
> 
> Indeed, I think it's safe to speculate that the bulk of Intel Inboard
> cards were sold to those running Lotus 1-2-3.
> 
> After we're all gone, what will future generations think of us? That we
> developed new hardware and software solely to play games?
> 
> Wow.
> 
> --Chuck
> 

Actually a lot of late 70's and early 80's computers were bought by a lot of 
ham radio guys for their setups.  

The only people I knew in the late 70's or early 80's doing "Business" things 
at home with personal computers were doing word processing and spreadsheets 
from 9 to 5 and video games from 5:15 till midnight.  

Sure if you were rich enough to have a PDP or System 32 for your home business 
you never ever played games, but no matter what their tax return said they 
bought a personal computer for, they were used for games after hours.  Heck we 
did the same thing in the early 90's.  the moment 5:00 came around the company 
intercom and conference lines were used for group chats while we all played 
network doom as teams for an hour or two until we went to the bar for a couple 
of beers.  

Games have always been part of detoxing after a long day of business on 
personal computers. 

Cheers,
Corey

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-08 Thread Ian S. King

On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 9:07 AM, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:

>
>
> On 10/8/2016 6:06 AM, Corey Cohen wrote:
>
>> ...
>>
>> So does this mean you should hoard everything you have until the price
>> goes up?  I don't have a crystal ball to tell you what is the next item of
>> value.  Who knew that a movie about the Tucker automobile would make a
>> Tucker one of the most desirable cars to a rare car collector.
>>
>
> Nice post, but not everyone is in to old computers for future potential
> investment value.  The thought never even occurred to me when I was
> acquiring the machines I have, I don't care what their value is or becomes,
> and the sight of hoarders doing so to hit upon some jackpot kind sickens my
> stomach.  I just have a severe aversion to all forms of greed.
>

I was talking to a non-collector acquaintance just a few minutes ago who
asked whether I was going to sell my TeleVideo TPC-I now that it works.
For a moment I thought he'd lapsed into a foreign language

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

RE: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-08 Thread Ali

> After we're all gone, what will future generations think of us? That we
> developed new hardware and software solely to play games?
> 
> Wow.

In a word: yes.

I am being a bit tongue in cheek when I say that but not entirely. Initially
this may not have been true - i.e. in the 80s people upgraded so CAD
applications would run faster, or 1-2-3 worked faster but at a certain point
(I say early Pentium era) computers got fast "enough" for 99% of the
business applications out there. What continues to drive the needs for
faster/newer systems has been bloatware (specially the OS which requires
more and more and overhead) and games/entertainment (e.g. initially playing
DVDs, then BD, then streaming, interactive web sites, Flash, etc..). 

I seriously doubt anyone needs a new graphics card and upgraded CPU every
six to twelve months to make sure Excel is running "fast enough". The people
who are going through voluntary frequent upgrade cycles are the gamers who
need the fastest/latest machines to play the newest games. As I type this I
am using a nine year old Thinkpad w/ a HDD (not SSD). The only thing I have
done is upgraded to a full 8GB of RAM. I run Win 7, Office 2007, and IE for
the most part in this machine and it is still as zippy as it was when I got
it.

So when you look back at the last twenty years of PC development new HW was
essentially developed to continue generate profit for the manufacturers and
this was justified by more and more demanding games/entertainment software. 

-Ali

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-08 Thread Al Kossow

On 10/8/16 2:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> After we're all gone, what will future generations think of us? That we
> developed new hardware and software solely to play games?
>

Probably, given how many cycles are being given to saving every copy-protected
Apple II game, compared to a couple guys trying to read 45 year old OS magtapes.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

On 10/08/2016 09:46 AM, j...@cimmeri.com wrote:

> I think the people who complain about "Altairs just sitting on
> desks" might be doing so for at least one reason being because a
> particular purpose seems to violate the original spirit, intent, and
> purpose behind the creation.  I hear that a lot eg. "it's a shame
> it's just sitting there, not being used."
> 
> It's when other purposes come in, and begin to make this hobby
> purpose more difficult to engage in and "unobtainium", that the
> hobbyists lament.  If there were enough for everyone, then there'd be
> no complaining.

I have to confess to a certain amount of bemusement when I witness the
phenomenon of game-obsession with early PCs.  With the exception of
"home" systems, such as Commodore and perhaps Apple and the like, I knew
very few people who *purchased* a PC for game playing.  Did people play
games on PCs?  Sure--but that was rarely the reason that anyone ponied
up for a 1970s or 80s multiple-kilobuck system.  Mind you, this was
around the time that one could purchase a Porsche 914 for little more
than $3000.

Most of the people I knew purchased a PC to do business applications
(AR, AP, GL, inventory, payroll or word processing) or worked with
spreadsheets.   Yet, very little of this is ever discussed on fora such
as the Vintage Computer Federation site.

Indeed, I think it's safe to speculate that the bulk of Intel Inboard
cards were sold to those running Lotus 1-2-3.

After we're all gone, what will future generations think of us? That we
developed new hardware and software solely to play games?

Wow.

--Chuck

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-08 Thread COURYHOUSE

Right on...  The  most important thing is IS THE OBJECT BEING  SAVED?
 
Even if  you restore something today it will be  crap in another  50 years 
If  you do not  restore it now it  will run like crap  too.
SO... in 50 years  both are equal.. they will both run like  crap  no 
matter if  restored now or  not.
 
The only caveat  to the above examples  is in ANY and  EVERY case make sure 
the old batteries are out of it!
 
And lastly... usually the people that   raise the most   protest 'about 
something not being used'  are those that  do not have  one.   Draw  your own 
conclusions...
 
 
Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 10/8/2016 9:46:04 A.M. US Mountain  
...


>   Just like the car collecting, comic book  collection and just about 
most other hobbies when they mature.   The  same type of people who complained 
about the price of an Xmen#1 because people  would just buy and display them 
and not read them, complain when someone buys  an ALTAIR to sit on their 
desk and doesn't turn it on.   Better that  than the garbage heap, without 
money coming into our hobby it would eventually  die out and many artifacts 
would be lost to the  dump.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-08 Thread Roberto Waltman




On 2016-10-08 07:06, Corey Cohen wrote:

So does this mean you should hoard everything you have until the price goes up?
The expression I used is "Wait until what every wife calls 'A basement 
full of junk' becomes AliBaba's treasure cave."


--
Roberto Waltman

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]


> On Oct 8, 2016, at 12:46 PM, "j...@cimmeri.com"  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/8/2016 11:22 AM, Corey Cohen wrote:
>>> On Oct 8, 2016, at 12:07 PM, "j...@cimmeri.com"  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The fact that a friggin' *movie* raises the value of something, also really 
>>> irks me.  How did movies ever become the be-all, end-all?
>>> 
>>> I'm sure others are irked as well by the intrusions of greed or 
>>> irrationality into what can otherwise be a pure, unadulterated, hobby.  
>>> Isn't it funny that the word "adult" is used in "adulterated" -- as if the 
>>> notion of adulthood renders things impure.  Well, in this case, certain 
>>> forms of adulthood do due render this hobby impure.
>>> 
>>> - J.
>> I think you misunderstood my points.
> 
> I actually completely understood them.  Maybe you misunderstand mine.
> 
> 
>> The hobby has already changed.
> 
> Not for me it hasn't.  You write of "the hobby" as a monolith.  It's not 
> monolithic; there's more than one hobby (or outcome), circling around these 
> material items.  In other words, there's these material items out there in 
> the marketplace (or that eventually reach a marketplace), and these items can 
> go down different roads depending on why they're purchased.   There's *this* 
> particular hobbyist road, then there's the investment road, the museum road, 
> and so on.  Some people also combine purposes.
> 
> 
> 
>>  Just like the car collecting, comic book collection and just about most 
>> other hobbies when they mature.   The same type of people who complained 
>> about the price of an Xmen#1 because people would just buy and display them 
>> and not read them, complain when someone buys an ALTAIR to sit on their desk 
>> and doesn't turn it on.   Better that than the garbage heap, without money 
>> coming into our hobby it would eventually die out and many artifacts would 
>> be lost to the dump.
> 
> I think the people who complain about "Altairs just sitting on desks" might 
> be doing so for at least one reason being because a particular purpose seems 
> to violate the original spirit, intent, and purpose behind the creation.  I 
> hear that a lot eg. "it's a shame it's just sitting there, not being used."
> 
> It's when other purposes come in, and begin to make this hobby purpose more 
> difficult to engage in and "unobtainium", that the hobbyists lament.  If 
> there were enough for everyone, then there'd be no complaining.
> 
> 
> I partially disagree that money needs to come into *our* hobby to keep it 
> alive.  Rather, I hold that money needs to go into *their* investment purpose 
> to keep THAT purpose alive.   I think we'd do just fine, paying reasonable 
> amounts, to keep our hobby alive without these other purposes in the game.
> 
> 
> - J.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

I think we will just have to agree to disagree. Which is totally cool with me, 
each of us have a different opinion on this stuff.   I have multiple collecting 
hobbies and they all resemble one another eventually.  

Cheers,
Corey

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-08 Thread j...@cimmeri.com

On 10/8/2016 11:22 AM, Corey Cohen wrote:

On Oct 8, 2016, at 12:07 PM, "j...@cimmeri.com" wrote:

The fact that a friggin' *movie* raises the value of something, also really
irks me. How did movies ever become the be-all, end-all?

I'm sure others are irked as well by the intrusions of greed or irrationality into what can
otherwise be a pure, unadulterated, hobby. Isn't it funny that the word "adult" is used
in "adulterated" -- as if the notion of adulthood renders things impure. Well, in this
case, certain forms of adulthood do due render this hobby impure.

- J.

I think you misunderstood my points.

I actually completely understood them.
Maybe you misunderstand mine.

The hobby has already changed.

Not for me it hasn't. You write of "the
hobby" as a monolith. It's not
monolithic; there's more than one hobby
(or outcome), circling around these
material items. In other words, there's
these material items out there in the
marketplace (or that eventually reach a
marketplace), and these items can go
down different roads depending on why
they're purchased. There's *this*
particular hobbyist road, then there's
the investment road, the museum road,
and so on. Some people also combine
purposes.

Just like the car collecting, comic book collection and just about most other
hobbies when they mature. The same type of people who complained about the
price of an Xmen#1 because people would just buy and display them and not read
them, complain when someone buys an ALTAIR to sit on their desk and doesn't
turn it on. Better that than the garbage heap, without money coming into our
hobby it would eventually die out and many artifacts would be lost to the dump.

I think the people who complain about
"Altairs just sitting on desks" might be
doing so for at least one reason being
because a particular purpose seems to
violate the original spirit, intent, and
purpose behind the creation. I hear
that a lot eg. "it's a shame it's just
sitting there, not being used."

It's when other purposes come in, and
begin to make this hobby purpose more
difficult to engage in and
"unobtainium", that the hobbyists
lament. If there were enough for
everyone, then there'd be no complaining.

I partially disagree that money needs to
come into *our* hobby to keep it alive.
Rather, I hold that money needs to go
into *their* investment purpose to keep
THAT purpose alive. I think we'd do
just fine, paying reasonable amounts, to
keep our hobby alive without these other
purposes in the game.

- J.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

> On Oct 8, 2016, at 12:07 PM, "j...@cimmeri.com"  wrote:
> 
> 
>> 
> 
> The fact that a friggin' *movie* raises the value of something, also really 
> irks me.  How did movies ever become the be-all, end-all?
> 
> I'm sure others are irked as well by the intrusions of greed or irrationality 
> into what can otherwise be a pure, unadulterated, hobby.  Isn't it funny that 
> the word "adult" is used in "adulterated" -- as if the notion of adulthood 
> renders things impure.  Well, in this case, certain forms of adulthood do due 
> render this hobby impure.
> 
> - J.

I think you misunderstood my points.  The hobby has already changed.  Just like 
the car collecting, comic book collection and just about most other hobbies 
when they mature.   The same type of people who complained about the price of 
an Xmen#1 because people would just buy and display them and not read them, 
complain when someone buys an ALTAIR to sit on their desk and doesn't turn it 
on.   Better that than the garbage heap, without money coming into our hobby it 
would eventually die out and many artifacts would be lost to the dump.   

Cheers,
Corey

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-08 Thread j...@cimmeri.com




On 10/8/2016 6:06 AM, Corey Cohen wrote:

...

So does this mean you should hoard everything you have until the price goes up? 
 I don't have a crystal ball to tell you what is the next item of value.  Who 
knew that a movie about the Tucker automobile would make a Tucker one of the 
most desirable cars to a rare car collector.


Nice post, but not everyone is in to old 
computers for future potential 
investment value.  The thought never 
even occurred to me when I was acquiring 
the machines I have, I don't care what 
their value is or becomes, and the sight 
of hoarders doing so to hit upon some 
jackpot kind sickens my stomach.  I just 
have a severe aversion to all forms of 
greed.


The fact that a friggin' *movie* raises 
the value of something, also really irks 
me.  How did movies ever become the 
be-all, end-all?


I'm sure others are irked as well by the 
intrusions of greed or irrationality 
into what can otherwise be a pure, 
unadulterated, hobby.  Isn't it funny 
that the word "adult" is used in 
"adulterated" -- as if the notion of 
adulthood renders things impure.  Well, 
in this case, certain forms of adulthood 
do due render this hobby impure.


- J.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-08 Thread Noel Chiappa

> From: Fred Cisin

>> Did you tell the dumpsterers that they'd thrown out stuff worth
>> thousands of dollars? (I would have made to sure to let them know
>> that, with great spite.)

> "So?  Boss said throw out everything in the closets. ..."

Clearly, the Indians weren't to blame. But I sure hope someone told the
chief...


> From: Corey Cohen

> As for stuff in vintage computer that is going up, it's not just Apple.
> It has to do with how mainstream and how rare something is. ... I do
> agree the rare Apple stuff is growing faster, but that's because it can
> pull from the business community as buyers who love the comeback story
> of Apple and what it represents.

Oh, I don't have any issue with Altairs going for $1-2K; I think one can make
a rational case for that; they were a key machine the growth of personal
computers, etc, etc. But I do think that when it comes to Apples, there is a
certain level of irrationality in some/many buyers. ($20K for a pair of
floppies?) There is definitely an Apple cult, which I think is a factor.

Let me make another analogy with cars (which I also used to collect). I think
early Ferraris are really, really cool - and the 330 P4 is, in my eyes, one
of the most beautiful race cars ever built (maybe _the_ most beautiful). But
if I had $10M, I sure as hell wouldn't spend the whole lot on an original P4;
I think better value would be to buy a down-to-the-last-bolt-exact replica,
for say $500K, and have $9.5M left over to buy other cool stuff with.

This goes quintuply for an original GTO, at $50M. One could do all sorts of
amazing things with that much money. Is having an original _really_ worth as
much (or more) than all those other things? Like I said, a certain level of
irrationality.

Noel

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

Been following this thread a bit a realized it's time to chime in. 

The Mustang analogy is a good one.  This hobby is becoming like collecting 
cars.  You really can't predict which stuff is going to be worth big money but 
the stuff that does always surprises the guys who owned one back in the day.  

Think about all the guys who basically threw away or sold for next to nothing 
their muscle cars in the 70's.  How many split window corvettes survived the 
gas shortage.   Today one of those cars needing restoration could go for more 
than the average home price in the US, make that more than two average homes.  

Parts can go for ridiculous amounts for someone who wants a complete set.  I 
can remember searching for 6 months for a perfect tool set for my Porsche a few 
years back.  If I would have found a NOS tool kit, I might have paid big money 
just to keep myself sane.  

As for stuff in vintage computer that is going up, it's not just Apple.  It has 
to do with how mainstream and how rare something is.  That Cromemco set went 
for good money, actually a little less than I would have guessed but more than 
it would have been only a few years ago.   What do I mean by mainstream...  
we'll just because only two of an item exists, someone has to care.  The 
dazzler was a big deal because of the display on the street in NYC which might 
have been the first time people saw computer generated video in person.  So 
while the general population doesn't remember the name Cromemco (if they did it 
would have gone for more than 2k) the set itself is mainstream enough for 
people who know a little about 1970's computers who collect to want one and 
spend the money.  The increasing price is because of unobtanium.  Those 
joysticks are very rare.  Sure this may bring more out of the closet, but 
unless they turn out to be C64 common, the price is set now.  

As for other stuff that is gaining in price, I do agree the rare Apple stuff is 
growing faster, but that's because it can pull from the business community as 
buyers who love the comeback story of Apple and what it represents.  Here are 
some other non Apple examples...  a Sol-20 could have been had for a few 
hundred bucks not too long ago.  Now unless you want a rust bucket they are 
minimally 1k and a good working example can cost 2 to 3k.  ALTAIR are another 
example.  Grant Stocky's replica kit used to be more expensive than buying a 
real rev-0.   Don't even get me started on ASR-33 or an ADM terminal.  

So does this mean you should hoard everything you have until the price goes up? 
 I don't have a crystal ball to tell you what is the next item of value.  Who 
knew that a movie about the Tucker automobile would make a Tucker one of the 
most desirable cars to a rare car collector.  Before then they were just a 
failed car company along with many others so they stuff wasn't worth big money. 
 Or the fact I could buy a vintage Maserati for 10k back in the 90's when it 
looked they they wouldn't survive which is now worth 200k or more since the 
company not only survived but became a "hip" car to own. 

Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to draw some tarot cards to set my eBay search 
list...

Cheers,
Corey

corey cohen
uǝɥoɔ ʎǝɹoɔ

> On Oct 7, 2016, at 11:46 PM, Brent Hilpert  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2016-Oct-07, at 5:17 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> 
>>> On 10/7/2016 5:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> 
>>> That simply defies logic. I *really* don't get this collecting business.
>> 
>> It's Apple-related. Some Apple devotees seem to have an, ah, excessive
>> attachment to things Apple. (Q.v. $1M Apple I's.) I'm suprised that some of
>> them didn't commit suttee when Steve died.
> 
> I agree this valuation is primarily "Apple"-driven rather than say 
> "vintage-computer" driven,
> but here's an interesting non-Apple sale, just completed:
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cromemco-Dazzler-JP-1-Joysticks-D-7A-S-100-Card-Docs-Games-for-MITS-Altair-IMSAI-/29151989
>

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-07 Thread Brad H

 Original message 
From: Brent Hilpert <hilp...@cs.ubc.ca> 
Date: 2016-10-07  8:46 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> 
Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!] 

On 2016-Oct-07, at 5:17 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

>> On 10/7/2016 5:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> 
>> That simply defies logic. I *really* don't get this collecting business.
> 
> It's Apple-related. Some Apple devotees seem to have an, ah, excessive
> attachment to things Apple. (Q.v. $1M Apple I's.) I'm suprised that some of
> them didn't commit suttee when Steve died.

I agree this valuation is primarily "Apple"-driven rather than say 
"vintage-computer" driven,
but here's an interesting non-Apple sale, just completed:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cromemco-Dazzler-JP-1-Joysticks-D-7A-S-100-Card-Docs-Games-for-MITS-Altair->IMSAI-/29151989

And yet the untouched original Mark-8 boards I bought only went for $1500.  I 
don't get it.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-07 Thread Brent Hilpert


On 2016-Oct-07, at 5:17 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

>> On 10/7/2016 5:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> 
>> That simply defies logic. I *really* don't get this collecting business.
> 
> It's Apple-related. Some Apple devotees seem to have an, ah, excessive
> attachment to things Apple. (Q.v. $1M Apple I's.) I'm suprised that some of
> them didn't commit suttee when Steve died.

I agree this valuation is primarily "Apple"-driven rather than say 
"vintage-computer" driven,
but here's an interesting non-Apple sale, just completed:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cromemco-Dazzler-JP-1-Joysticks-D-7A-S-100-Card-Docs-Games-for-MITS-Altair-IMSAI-/29151989

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-07 Thread COURYHOUSE

90 mm f 2 summacron was a great lens!
wish I had one back  for our  M2.

In a message dated 10/7/2016 7:15:36 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
ci...@xenosoft.com writes:

On Fri,  7 Oct 2016, couryho...@aol.com wrote:
> Leicas dumpstered?OMG !?
> oh the  humanity!!!

Indeed!
M2 AND M3,  with marvelous lenses.  CHead had promised me the Summicrons, 
which I  have always dreamed of having.
I found 2 cases that the dumpsterers missed,  containing a mint 2-1/4x3-1/4 
Graflex and lenses, and a Visoflex  Tele-Elmarit with serious cosmetic 
damage due to the foam  deteriorating.  When it became clear that the rest 
were gone, I did a  quick sale of the Tele-Elmarit for $1000, kept a 47mm 
Super-Angulon  (almost fills 4x5!), and gave the Graflex with the rest of 
its lenses to  another of CHead's friends who wanted to learn what HE 
considered "large  format".  I'm currently playing with swings and tilts 
with the Super  Angulon on a Hama/Kenlock/Spiratone bellows as a miniature 
technical  camera.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]


On Fri, 7 Oct 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote:

Did you tell the dumpsterers that they'd thrown out stuff worth thousands of
dollars? (I would have made to sure to let them know that, with great spite.)
And if so, what did they say?


"So?  Boss said throw out everything in the closets.  We don't open those 
suitcases.  We'd get fired if we did."
To be fair, there WAS enough useless stuff, such as a few PBM-1000s, 
carousel trays, Pradovit slide projector, dollar store purchases, etc., 
to fill the dumpster.


I hope that CHead haunts them to the max.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-07 Thread Noel Chiappa

> From: Fred Cisin

> I found 2 cases that the dumpsterers missed ... I did a quick sale of
> the Tele-Elmarit for $1000

Did you tell the dumpsterers that they'd thrown out stuff worth thousands of
dollars? (I would have made to sure to let them know that, with great spite.)

And if so, what did they say?

Noel

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]


On Fri, 7 Oct 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote:

Well, as we all know, Apple invented the personal computer--and probably
the microprocessor...


I hear that there is "prior art" for transistors!

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-07 Thread Jon Elson


On 10/07/2016 05:12 PM, Al Kossow wrote:

ouch!

this is about 2x what I thought they would go for

On 10/1/16 7:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291894250804




Groan!  I've been collecting the WRONG stuff!

Jon

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]


On Fri, 7 Oct 2016, couryho...@aol.com wrote:

Leicas dumpstered?   OMG !?
oh the  humanity!!!


Indeed!
M2 AND M3, with marvelous lenses.  CHead had promised me the Summicrons, 
which I have always dreamed of having.
I found 2 cases that the dumpsterers missed, containing a mint 2-1/4x3-1/4 
Graflex and lenses, and a Visoflex Tele-Elmarit with serious cosmetic 
damage due to the foam deteriorating.  When it became clear that the rest 
were gone, I did a quick sale of the Tele-Elmarit for $1000, kept a 47mm 
Super-Angulon (almost fills 4x5!), and gave the Graflex with the rest of 
its lenses to another of CHead's friends who wanted to learn what HE 
considered "large format".  I'm currently playing with swings and tilts 
with the Super Angulon on a Hama/Kenlock/Spiratone bellows as a miniature 
technical camera.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-07 Thread Brad H

I'd like to see a dig like they did for the Atari ET carts where the Lisas are 
buried.  Although, I think they were all Lisa 2s?

Sent from my Samsung device

 Original message 
From: Chuck Guzis <ccl...@sydex.com> 
Date: 2016-10-07  4:58 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> 
Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!] 

On 10/07/2016 04:41 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> 
> 
> On 10/7/16 4:32 PM, j...@cimmeri.com wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> how astonishingly retarded that they sold for that much.
> 
> nah.. maybe Alan in Soquel will list the ones he's been hoarding.

In non-computer-related sales that initially commanded an outrageous
price, I've seen the prices of subsequent sales decline precipitously.

So Alan may not be in such a deliriously happy place.

Sort of like a stamp collector selling a specimen thought to be the only
one in existence and then discovering that there were 10 more out there.

In particular, I have to wonder how much of this stuff is buried in
overseas e-waste piles.

--Chuck

Re: ka... ching!

2016-10-07 Thread j...@cimmeri.com




On 10/1/2016 5:52 PM, Santo Nucifora wrote:

For those who are bidding on the twiggy drives, you can have a Lisa 1
faceplate here:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/62204758 and a matching Lisa 
1 mouse here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/172360487433

These are a little on the expensive side too :)



re: www.ebay.com/itm/172360487433

I have a Lisa 1 mouse here in better 
shape, and far lower serial #008439.  
That ebay seller is asking a mere $3000 
plus -- let's not forget -- $9 shipping 
(greedy f**k!).


So if I list mine at $2000 with *** FREE 
*** shipping, is that a good deal for 
someone?  lol


- J.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-07 Thread Kevin Griffin

Not sure...I just was saying he wasn't that far off what people will pay
based on the eBay action of he twiggys at 20.6k.  Drives that are
unverified at that.

On Friday, October 7, 2016, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:

>
>
> On 10/7/2016 7:38 PM, Kevin Griffin wrote:
>
>> This guy was spot on about if his Lisa1 had Twiggys
>> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/sys/5797104896.html
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>
>
> How does this SF guy so confidently know --> $30k plus?Is there a
> place where these Lisas regularly sell for that?
>
> - J.
>

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-07 Thread j...@cimmeri.com




On 10/7/2016 7:38 PM, Kevin Griffin wrote:

This guy was spot on about if his Lisa1 had Twiggys
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/sys/5797104896.html

Kevin



How does this SF guy so confidently know 
--> $30k plus?Is there a place where 
these Lisas regularly sell for that?


- J.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-07 Thread COURYHOUSE

Leicas dumpstered?   OMG !?

oh the  humanity!!!

In a message dated 10/7/2016 5:18:44 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
ci...@xenosoft.com writes:

On Fri,  7 Oct 2016, couryho...@aol.com wrote:
> but if  you were a  hardcore mustang collector  you would not  sleep
> until you  had  every part that went  with it...

Having been around when  they came out, and still around when I did not buy 
non-running rolling  rebuildables for a few hundred dollars, I'm not likely 
to ever become that  hardcore Mustang collector!

I will sell my Leicas to the  hardcore!   (So that they won't get 
dumpstered after I die, like  CHead's did!)

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-07 Thread Chuck Guzis

On 10/07/2016 05:17 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> It's Apple-related. Some Apple devotees seem to have an, ah,
> excessive attachment to things Apple. (Q.v. $1M Apple I's.) I'm
> suprised that some of them didn't commit suttee when Steve died.

Well, as we all know, Apple invented the personal computer--and probably
the microprocessor...

--Chuck

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-07 Thread Kevin Griffin

This guy was spot on about if his Lisa1 had Twiggys
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/sys/5797104896.html

Kevin

On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 5:18 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:

> On Fri, 7 Oct 2016, couryho...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> but if  you were a hardcore mustang collector  you would not  sleep
>> until you had  every part that went  with it...
>>
>
> Having been around when they came out, and still around when I did not buy
> non-running rolling rebuildables for a few hundred dollars, I'm not likely
> to ever become that hardcore Mustang collector!
>
> I will sell my Leicas to the hardcore!   (So that they won't get
> dumpstered after I die, like CHead's did!)
>
>
>

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]


On Fri, 7 Oct 2016, couryho...@aol.com wrote:

but if  you were a hardcore mustang collector  you would not  sleep
until you had  every part that went  with it...


Having been around when they came out, and still around when I did not buy 
non-running rolling rebuildables for a few hundred dollars, I'm not likely 
to ever become that hardcore Mustang collector!


I will sell my Leicas to the hardcore!   (So that they won't get 
dumpstered after I die, like CHead's did!)

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-07 Thread Noel Chiappa

> On 10/7/2016 5:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> That simply defies logic. I *really* don't get this collecting business.

It's Apple-related. Some Apple devotees seem to have an, ah, excessive
attachment to things Apple. (Q.v. $1M Apple I's.) I'm suprised that some of
them didn't commit suttee when Steve died.

Noel

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]

2016-10-07 Thread COURYHOUSE

but if  you were a hardcore mustang collector  you would not  sleep
until you had  every part that went  with it...
 
 
Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 10/7/2016 5:07:12 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
ci...@xenosoft.com writes:

If I had  a 65 Mustang, missing the ashtray, the only reason that I would 
pay  anything significant for NOS replacement would be if I had immediate 
plans  to sell it to somebody for whom that stuff matters.
Yes, I can see the  differences between the original headlight assembly on 
the Honda, and the  Chinese imitation replacement.  But, I don't  care.

Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]