OT Re: email gripe

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: Dave Woyciesjes: Wednesday, July 08, 2015 7:17 AM
Ahh, the sweet smell of paranoia... :) Listen, if they want to track & 
watch you, they're doing it already. Using text-only email won't help 
much; give it up.


Oh, they are out to "get me", alright.  They've admitted as much 
repeatedly.  Otherwise I wouldn't be getting all these ads and 
emails saying essentially:


   "Hey, we totally "get" you, and to prove it, here's a list of 
   cool stuff you can buy from us or our friends".


Heck, almost the entire cost of my Android phone is paid for 
that way.  Not to mention virtually the entire cost of the Internet.


I'm OK with that -- it's the Internet, and they're mostly sort of 
up front (in a sleazy way) about it.  I just want to keep it out of 
email.  Especially high volume email, like this list :-).


Vince

--
o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email!

Re: email gripe

[Sean Conner]

It was thus said that the Great Dave Woyciesjes once stated:
> On 07/07/2015 09:06 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> >
> >   ...But I've tried using a GUI to check email and frankly, I
> >found it too painful to use.  It wasn't that the GUI was confusing or
> >inconsistent, but that it was *way too slow*.  Sluggish to display, and
> >painfully slow to download (it's not unusual for me to receive everal
> >hundred emails per day).  By checking email on the server using a command
> >line tool, I can do the filtering upon receipt (not when downloading) and
> >blast through two emails in the time it would take a GUI to display one.
> >
> >   Right now, I'm using an iPad (and a Bluetooth keyboard) with an SSH 
> >   client
> >to check my email.  I get to use an email client I'm familiar with for
> >reading, along with my preferred editor to write this email.
> >
>   Wait, what? The email GUI on an iPad is too slow? What's wrong with 
> that device? Or is there a problem with your server?

  The big ponderous GUI I was talking about is Thunderbird.  Using the
native iPad email client (or any third party ones, if there are any, I don't
know as I haven't checked) would be Yet Another Interface To Learn While I'm
On Vacation [1].

  -spc (I have enough trouble keeping up with the latest programming fads to
keep up with today's GUI du jour)

[1] For what I'm doing on vacation, an iPad with a bluetooth keyboard is
sufficient for my needs.

Re: email gripe

[Chuck Guzis]

On 07/08/2015 07:30 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:


 You said you use TBird, right? Have you looked in to the LookOut
Add-In for that ailment?
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/lookout/


Thanks for that tip--it definitely looks to be useful.

--Chuck

Re: email gripe

[Fred Cisin]

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!
:-)

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:
We had some difficulties with college administrators that resulted in, "The 
question is not 'are you paranoid?';

the question is 'are you paranoid enough?'"
("There is no expectation of privacy for any actions taken on the college's 
computers nor telephones", even one administrator who would temporarily join 
Yahoo groups in order to search archives for any disparaging remarks!  [Hey, 
John W, eat shit and die!])


NOT any of the John W's on this list!  Sorry about that!
This one was similar to the college president in "Horse Feathers".
"All college documents must be prepared in WordPerfect."

Re: email gripe

[Ian S. King]

Oh boy!  Another long, rambling and pointless email rant thread!

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: email gripe

[Fred Cisin]

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!
:-)


We had some difficulties with college administrators that resulted in, 
"The question is not 'are you paranoid?';

the question is 'are you paranoid enough?'"
("There is no expectation of privacy for any actions taken on the 
college's computers nor telephones", even one administrator who would 
temporarily join Yahoo groups in order to search archives for any 
disparaging remarks!  [Hey, John W, eat shit and die!])






It's not "they" (meaning some state sponsered spy program) that's the
big problem, it's the hundreds of spam malware that's sent using email
and image or other "auto loading features" of mail programs as an attack
vector.

It's why everyone I know who isn't really computer saavy and runs windows
has to wipe and reinstall regularly.

Todd



--
Fred Cisin  ci...@xenosoft.com
XenoSofthttp://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236

Re: email gripe

[Mouse]

> Listen, if they want to track & watch you, they're doing it already.
> Using text-only email won't help much; give it up.

While I didn't write the text (which I cut) that the above quote is
responding to, I too stick to text-only for security reasons - but not
just because of the "them" watching and tracking me.

While that is part of it - and, while I recognize that "they" may well
be doing some tracking and watching, they are probably managing
significantly less for me than for most people, and every little bit
helps in any case - there is also a different "them" I'm concerned
with, that being the hordes of spammers, most of whom do not have the
resources to do that kind of wholesale monitoring.

However, there's a much bigger reason: I've yet to see an HTML-capable
MUA with an interface I can stand - and, even if I were to imagine one,
all it would bring over just reading the text/plain part is failing to
notice spam which has drastic differences in content between the
text/plain and text/html parts.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: email gripe

[Dave Woyciesjes]

On 07/08/2015 10:25 AM, Todd Goodman wrote:

* Dave Woyciesjes  [150708 10:17]:

On 07/07/2015 07:18 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:

From: jwsmobile: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 3:43 PM

If there were a technical reason to keep it in a simple format that
would be fine, but as Al K pointed out quite some time ago, Google
already indexes all of this quite fine as it and most search engines
do, so the list is text searchable.


For me, HTML mail is disdained because it's a security nightmare.
I don't want to worry about transparent tracking images, cookies,
javascript, and who knows what else they've invented or will invent.

I just want to read what you've got to say.

I might want to follow your link, if I have sufficient interest and
trust, but I want to have to make that decision *before* entering the
spy filled, all-singing, all-dancing hype arena.

 Vince


Ahh, the sweet smell of paranoia... :) Listen, if they want to track &
watch you, they're doing it already. Using text-only email won't help
much; give it up.


Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!
:-)


But that's a different subject for another thread :P


It's not "they" (meaning some state sponsered spy program) that's the
big problem, it's the hundreds of spam malware that's sent using email
and image or other "auto loading features" of mail programs as an attack
vector.

It's why everyone I know who isn't really computer saavy and runs windows
has to wipe and reinstall regularly.


I haven't had to. And I use TBird.


--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

Re: email gripe

[Dave Woyciesjes]

On 07/07/2015 11:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 07/07/2015 07:27 PM, wulfman wrote:

yes html email gets deleted for the most part


I don't have that option--customers send whatever they want.
Another annoyance is when they send attachments in that Outlook
winmail.dat format.  I think that Libre office can open it.

	You said you use TBird, right? Have you looked in to the LookOut Add-In 
for that ailment?

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/lookout/


--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

Re: email gripe

[Dave Woyciesjes]

On 07/07/2015 09:06 PM, Sean Conner wrote:


   ...But I've tried using a GUI to check email and frankly, I
found it too painful to use.  It wasn't that the GUI was confusing or
inconsistent, but that it was *way too slow*.  Sluggish to display, and
painfully slow to download (it's not unusual for me to receive everal
hundred emails per day).  By checking email on the server using a command
line tool, I can do the filtering upon receipt (not when downloading) and
blast through two emails in the time it would take a GUI to display one.

   Right now, I'm using an iPad (and a Bluetooth keyboard) with an SSH client
to check my email.  I get to use an email client I'm familiar with for
reading, along with my preferred editor to write this email.

	Wait, what? The email GUI on an iPad is too slow? What's wrong with 
that device? Or is there a problem with your server?



--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

Re: email gripe

[Todd Goodman]

* Dave Woyciesjes  [150708 10:17]:
> On 07/07/2015 07:18 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
> > From: jwsmobile: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 3:43 PM
> >> If there were a technical reason to keep it in a simple format that
> >> would be fine, but as Al K pointed out quite some time ago, Google
> >> already indexes all of this quite fine as it and most search engines
> >> do, so the list is text searchable.
> >
> > For me, HTML mail is disdained because it's a security nightmare.
> > I don't want to worry about transparent tracking images, cookies,
> > javascript, and who knows what else they've invented or will invent.
> >
> > I just want to read what you've got to say.
> >
> > I might want to follow your link, if I have sufficient interest and
> > trust, but I want to have to make that decision *before* entering the
> > spy filled, all-singing, all-dancing hype arena.
> >
> > Vince
> 
>   Ahh, the sweet smell of paranoia... :) Listen, if they want to track & 
> watch you, they're doing it already. Using text-only email won't help 
> much; give it up.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!
:-)

It's not "they" (meaning some state sponsered spy program) that's the
big problem, it's the hundreds of spam malware that's sent using email
and image or other "auto loading features" of mail programs as an attack
vector.

It's why everyone I know who isn't really computer saavy and runs windows
has to wipe and reinstall regularly.

Todd

Re: email gripe

[Dave Woyciesjes]

On 07/07/2015 07:18 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:

From: jwsmobile: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 3:43 PM

If there were a technical reason to keep it in a simple format that
would be fine, but as Al K pointed out quite some time ago, Google
already indexes all of this quite fine as it and most search engines
do, so the list is text searchable.


For me, HTML mail is disdained because it's a security nightmare.
I don't want to worry about transparent tracking images, cookies,
javascript, and who knows what else they've invented or will invent.

I just want to read what you've got to say.

I might want to follow your link, if I have sufficient interest and
trust, but I want to have to make that decision *before* entering the
spy filled, all-singing, all-dancing hype arena.

Vince


	Ahh, the sweet smell of paranoia... :) Listen, if they want to track & 
watch you, they're doing it already. Using text-only email won't help 
much; give it up.


--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

Re: email gripe

[geneb]

On Tue, 7 Jul 2015, Sean Conner wrote:


[2] mutt.  I was forced to upgrade a decade ago because elm was no
longer maintained and non-Y2K compliant (I think that's why I
switched).


Alpine Forever! :)

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: email gripe

[Peter Coghlan]

jwsmobile  wrote:

On 7/7/2015 12:43 PM, Sean Conner wrote:

It was thus said that the Great jwsmobile once stated:

sending live URL's in the text that don't require a multi step copy
paste, or even save email edit, feed to lynx would be nice.  Html email
does that.

   There are some on this list (such as I) that do not use a graphical email
client, but a text-mode email  client. [1]

   -spc (And the etiquette for this list is inline or bottom posting, not
top)

[1] To even look at a attached PDF, for example, I have to save it
first, then download it to view it.
Most of us have either browser embedded PDF viewers, or Adobe associated 
with PDF's and are one click away.

Yes, I do check my email on the server using a command line program
[2].

[2] mutt.  I was forced to upgrade a decade ago because elm was no
longer maintained and non-Y2K compliant (I think that's why I
switched).


I just don't see inconveniencing an entire list because a few people 
want to run on internet connected 286 machines, with attached ASR33's.


And to say that should carry much weight on selecting the format of the 
email is pretty inconsiderate to everyone.


If there were a technical reason to keep it in a simple format that 
would be fine, but as Al K pointed out quite some time ago, Google 
already indexes all of this quite fine as it and most search engines do, 
so the list is text searchable.


As far as email browsing, I have used thunderbird and prior to that the 
same facility in the combined netscape.  The way of all emails seem to 
be towards letting some great and wonderful company such as your ISP, 
Google, Yahoo, or heaven forbid AOL keep all of your email, and present 
it, and even thunderbird has gone into "we don't support it anymore" 
status with Firefox.


So archiving my own email may end up in the same state as your argument 
for text archiving.  However the format of the email won't be an issue 
in my case.




I just can't figure out how Jay manages to keep putting up with us at all.

(I was going to reply to this message because when I read it first, it seemed
to contain some points which I thought I might have a different opinion on.
So I read it again to clarify my thoughts.  The more I re-read it, the less
sense it made to me and I eventually decided I can't disagree with any of
these points because I can't really figure out what they are.  I guess I am
losing my marbles.  My congratulations to those who managed to make enough
sense of it to make considered, insightful replies.)

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

OT: Re: email gripe

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: jwsmobile: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 5:47 PM

On 7/7/2015 4:18 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
I might want to follow your link, if I have sufficient interest and 
trust, but I want to have to make that decision *before* entering the 
spy filled, all-singing, all-dancing hype arena.


I agree with this.  I am not aware of a useful reader of email which 
supports html that does not block offline content.  Thunderbird requires 
you hit a button to activate remote content. 


I'm not aware of a "current" reader that won't let you configure 
at least some security settings to play it safe.  But I'm aware of 
many (especially web based ones) where the default settings 
are not what I'd call safe.  And the basic objection is to a world 
where I need to become an expert on what's "safe" just to read

my mail.

I usually forward such to 
a yahoo or gmail account if I have doubts about the embedded content.  


Not clear how that would help.

What are you using which allows day zero type activation of any html 
content?  As I said, I don't use any web based readers or archivers for 
the reason you cite, but I've never had a problem with any content.


My phone does this, for example.  Though it is set up to block images, 
it seems happy to run javascript and accept cookies whether I want it 
to or not.


   Vince 

Re: email gripe

[John Robertson]

On 07/07/2015 6:14 PM, Chris Osborn wrote:


Begin forwarded message:


From: John Robertson 
Subject: Re: email gripe
Date: July 7, 2015 at 6:03:49 PM PDT
To: gene...@classiccmp.org,
   "discuss...@classiccmp.org":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 

Reply-To: pinb...@telus.net, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 

User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10;
  rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0

Not sure what you are talking about - my Thunderbird (OSX 31.7.0) when I hit reply (Apple-R) 
created the To: field as: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
".

Am I missing something here?

Check out the To: line that made it to the list, notice the first thing is 
gene...@classiccmp.org. If you go through the archives it only shows up when 
people using Thunderbird send a message.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com


Ah-ha! I turned on Show All Headers, and you are quite correct (as you 
knew) - it does address it as gene...@classiccmp.org. Oddly enough when 
I type in General into the To: field it does pop up with 
cct...@classiccmp.org as the recipient-to-be.


My address book had:

General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 

and

General Discussion: On-Topic Posts 

And I have now deleted the "General Discussion:" - perhaps the colon is 
throwing things off?


Let's see...

John :-#)#

--
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames)
 www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"

Re: email gripe

[Chuck Guzis]

On 07/07/2015 08:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

On Tue, 7 Jul 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

Let's see if my reply has the same problem as Chris cited.


Yep!
It took "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"

and parsed it into:
 gene...@classiccmp.org,
 discuss...@classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
 


Weird.

Let's try this--replace spaces with underscores...

--Chuck

Re: email gripe

[Fred Cisin]

On Tue, 7 Jul 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

Let's see if my reply has the same problem as Chris cited.


Yep!
It took 
"General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 

and parsed it into:
gene...@classiccmp.org,
discuss...@classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts

Re: email gripe

[Chuck Guzis]

On 07/07/2015 07:27 PM, wulfman wrote:

yes html email gets deleted for the most part


I don't have that option--customers send whatever they want.
Another annoyance is when they send attachments in that Outlook 
winmail.dat format.  I think that Libre office can open it.


--Chuck

Re: email gripe

[Chuck Guzis]

On 07/07/2015 06:41 PM, jwsmobile wrote:


Thunderbird does have a bad habit of interpolating and remembering
typos, however, so if you at some point in time type in
gene...@classicmp.org, there is an entry in the Thunderbird address book
called "collected addresses".  It may have your general @ classiccmp
entry and clearing out crap from there was a recent exercise for me.

Also when I go to enter an address there is an attempt to match an
address to what I'm typing that  had gotten messed up from typos that I
had had, and it took an act of congress to find out how to clear out
that crap.


I simply turned off the option to collect addresses; too many times, I'd 
wind up sending email to someone I didn't intend to.


Let's see if my reply has the same problem as Chris cited.

--Chuck

Re: email gripe

[wulfman]

yes html email gets deleted for the most part

On 7/7/2015 7:13 PM, Jay West wrote:
> Chris wrote...
>
> Boy, count another vote against HTML-izing this list if that's what's being
> considered.
> -
> No, forcing the list to send email as HTML has never been done, nor is it
> being considered.
>
> I do believe there is an option where each member can set their subscription
> to be plain text, which I believe is set by default.
>
> J
>
>
>


-- 
The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use 
of the named
addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any 
unauthorized use,
copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly 
prohibited by
the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please 
notify the sender
immediately and delete this e-mail.

RE: email gripe

[Jay West]

Chris wrote...

Boy, count another vote against HTML-izing this list if that's what's being
considered.
-
No, forcing the list to send email as HTML has never been done, nor is it
being considered.

I do believe there is an option where each member can set their subscription
to be plain text, which I believe is set by default.

J

Re: email gripe

[jwsmobile]

On 7/7/2015 6:14 PM, Chris Osborn wrote:


Begin forwarded message:


From: John Robertson 
Subject: Re: email gripe
Date: July 7, 2015 at 6:03:49 PM PDT
To: gene...@classiccmp.org,
   "discuss...@classiccmp.org":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 

Reply-To: pinb...@telus.net, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 

User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10;
  rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0

Not sure what you are talking about - my Thunderbird (OSX 31.7.0) when I hit reply (Apple-R) 
created the To: field as: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
".

Am I missing something here?

Check out the To: line that made it to the list, notice the first thing is 
gene...@classiccmp.org. If you go through the archives it only shows up when 
people using Thunderbird send a message.


All of my email ever has come from thunderbird, and it never sends out that.

Thunderbird does have a bad habit of interpolating and remembering 
typos, however, so if you at some point in time type in 
gene...@classicmp.org, there is an entry in the Thunderbird address book 
called "collected addresses".  It may have your general @ classiccmp 
entry and clearing out crap from there was a recent exercise for me.


Also when I go to enter an address there is an attempt to match an 
address to what I'm typing that  had gotten messed up from typos that I 
had had, and it took an act of congress to find out how to clear out 
that crap.


thanks
Jim

Re: email gripe

[Chris Osborn]

Begin forwarded message:

> From: John Robertson 
> Subject: Re: email gripe
> Date: July 7, 2015 at 6:03:49 PM PDT
> To: gene...@classiccmp.org,
>   "discuss...@classiccmp.org":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> 
> Reply-To: pinb...@telus.net, "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
> Posts" 
> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10;
>  rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0
> 
> Not sure what you are talking about - my Thunderbird (OSX 31.7.0) when I hit 
> reply (Apple-R) created the To: field as: "General Discussion: On-Topic and 
> Off-Topic Posts ".
> 
> Am I missing something here?

Check out the To: line that made it to the list, notice the first thing is 
gene...@classiccmp.org. If you go through the archives it only shows up when 
people using Thunderbird send a message.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com

Re: email gripe

[Sean Conner]

It was thus said that the Great jwsmobile once stated:
> 
> 
> On 7/7/2015 12:43 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> >It was thus said that the Great jwsmobile once stated:
> >>sending live URL's in the text that don't require a multi step copy
> >>paste, or even save email edit, feed to lynx would be nice.  Html email
> >>does that.
> >   There are some on this list (such as I) that do not use a graphical 
> >   email
> >client, but a text-mode email  client. [1]
> >
> >   -spc (And the etiquette for this list is inline or bottom posting, not
> > top)
> >
> >[1]  To even look at a attached PDF, for example, I have to save it
> > first, then download it to view it.
> Most of us have either browser embedded PDF viewers, or Adobe associated 
> with PDF's and are one click away.

  True enough.  But I've tried using a GUI to check email and frankly, I
found it too painful to use.  It wasn't that the GUI was confusing or
inconsistent, but that it was *way too slow*.  Sluggish to display, and
painfully slow to download (it's not unusual for me to receive everal
hundred emails per day).  By checking email on the server using a command
line tool, I can do the filtering upon receipt (not when downloading) and
blast through two emails in the time it would take a GUI to display one.

  Right now, I'm using an iPad (and a Bluetooth keyboard) with an SSH client
to check my email.  I get to use an email client I'm familiar with for
reading, along with my preferred editor to write this email.

> > Yes, I do check my email on the server using a command line program
> > [2].
> >
> >[2]  mutt.  I was forced to upgrade a decade ago because elm was no
> > longer maintained and non-Y2K compliant (I think that's why I
> > switched).
> >
> >
> I just don't see inconveniencing an entire list because a few people 
> want to run on internet connected 286 machines, with attached ASR33's.

  I think  that's only Tony who does that.  

> As far as email browsing, I have used thunderbird and prior to that the 
> same facility in the combined netscape.  The way of all emails seem to 
> be towards letting some great and wonderful company such as your ISP, 
> Google, Yahoo, or heaven forbid AOL keep all of your email, and present 
> it, and even thunderbird has gone into "we don't support it anymore" 
> status with Firefox.
> 
> So archiving my own email may end up in the same state as your argument 
> for text archiving.  

  Did I mention I run my own email  sever?

> However the format of the email won't be an issue 
> in my case.

  Would that be HTML?  HTML 2?  HTML 3?  HTML 3.2?  HTML 4? HTML 5?

  -spc (Or even XHTML?)

Re: email gripe

[John Robertson]

On 07/07/2015 4:44 PM, Chris Osborn wrote:

On Jul 7, 2015, at 4:18 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:


using Thunderbird

Which I’ve noticed has problems parsing the

"General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 


No matter which platform anyone is using, it’s always Thunderbird that creates 
the gene...@classiccmp.org address into the To: field.

Not sure what you are talking about - my Thunderbird (OSX 31.7.0) when I 
hit reply (Apple-R) created the To: field as: "General Discussion: 
On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ".


Am I missing something here?

John :-#)#
(mostly lurking from Vancouver, BC)

Re: email gripe

[jwsmobile]

On 7/7/2015 5:43 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:

On Jul 7, 2015, at 3:43 PM, jwsmobile  wrote:


If there were a technical reason to keep it in a simple format that would be 
fine, but as Al K pointed out quite some time ago, Google already indexes all 
of this quite fine as it and most search engines do, so the list is text 
searchable.

There are (at least) two fallacies here:

1) The entire planet has 24x7 ubiquitous and effectively free internet 
connectivity, and

2) All the visually impaired have software that can cleanly, accurately, and 
efficiently scrape the browser results these various web search pages display, 
and can articulate them clearly in an alternate format.  This also goes for 
figuring out how to use the search pages to begin with.

--lyndon

Not sure what fallacy you see here.   The list goes to a location online 
that is searchable.   Search engines index the information from there.  
Near as I can tell Jay plans on it being online 24/7 and there are no 
blocks to search engines reading the information and including it in 
their indexes.


Nothing about html format prevents search engines from capturing the 
information as accurately as text formatting.  My point is, that keeping 
it in text format is not a requirement to make put it in a form that it 
can be indexed.


And I pointed out that some people had warned that all of our 
discussions were being included in search engines , as a 
possible source of objection.  I only included that point because the 
same people lobbying for text form may also be the ones who may not want 
list traffic in search engines, and I conceded that is a separate 
point.  Apologies to Al for dragging his name into the thread.


Not sure where your 2 points came from.

thanks
Jim

Re: email gripe

[jwsmobile]

On 7/7/2015 4:18 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:

From: jwsmobile: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 3:43 PM
If there were a technical reason to keep it in a simple format that 
would be fine, but as Al K pointed out quite some time ago, Google 
already indexes all of this quite fine as it and most search engines 
do, so the list is text searchable.


For me, HTML mail is disdained because it's a security nightmare.
I don't want to worry about transparent tracking images, cookies, 
javascript, and who knows what else they've invented or will invent.


I just want to read what you've got to say.

I might want to follow your link, if I have sufficient interest and 
trust, but I want to have to make that decision *before* entering the 
spy filled, all-singing, all-dancing hype arena.


I agree with this.  I am not aware of a useful reader of email which 
supports html that does not block offline content.  Thunderbird requires 
you hit a button to activate remote content.  I usually forward such to 
a yahoo or gmail account if I have doubts about the embedded content.  
However none of the emails I read are any different than a text 
formatted message with summary blocking of where graphical  content will 
appear.


What are you using which allows day zero type activation of any html 
content?  As I said, I don't use any web based readers or archivers for 
the reason you cite, but I've never had a problem with any content.



   Vince
--
o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email!

Re: email gripe

[Chris Elmquist]

On Tuesday (07/07/2015 at 04:18PM -0700), Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
> 
> For me, HTML mail is disdained because it's a security nightmare.
> I don't want to worry about transparent tracking images, cookies,
> javascript, and who knows what else they've invented or will invent.
> 
> I just want to read what you've got to say.
> 
> I might want to follow your link, if I have sufficient interest and
> trust, but I want to have to make that decision *before* entering
> the spy filled, all-singing, all-dancing hype arena.

Boy, count another vote against HTML-izing this list if that's what's
being considered.

I just want to read people's words.  Not execute programs that they send
to my inbox.

I don't want to use a graphical email client because they are huge
software pigs, slow and ridden with bugs and security holes and force me
to use far more computer horsepower just to support the GUI than should
ever be required to handle simple email.

I don't want to have to guess what they quoted because they colored that
blue and put their response in in pink and my HTML to text conversion
doesn't do colors.  Nor do I want to guess which text was in bold and
which was in italics because the conversion throws all that away too.

People get reduced to putting their initials in front of their inline
replies just so you can find the new text they wrote.

What would be the benefit to HTML-izing the list?

Chris
-- 
Chris Elmquist
I joined The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email!

Re: email gripe

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-07-08 01:44, Chris Osborn wrote:


On Jul 7, 2015, at 4:18 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:


using Thunderbird


Which I’ve noticed has problems parsing the

"General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 


No matter which platform anyone is using, it’s always Thunderbird that creates 
the gene...@classiccmp.org address into the To: field.


Just checking. This reply was written in thunderbird, and the 
to:-address certainly looks like "cctalk@classiccmp.org" to me. Let's 
see if something happens along the way...


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: email gripe

[Dale H. Cook]

At 07:18 PM 7/7/2015, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:

>For me, HTML mail is disdained because it's a security nightmare.
>I don't want to worry about transparent tracking images, cookies, javascript, 
>and who knows what else they've invented or will invent.

That is one reason why I still run Eudora Pro, with HTML disabled.

>I just want to read what you've got to say.

As do I, but with a message that begins by quoting, unedited, an entire 
previous post, I never get to what the person has to say. I send those messages 
to the bit bucket - my reasoning is that if someone cannot take the time to 
edit their quotes they probably have not taken sufficient time in framing their 
response.

Vincent's post was an excellent example of a succinctly edited post, so it got 
read.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 

Re: email gripe

[Chris Osborn]

On Jul 7, 2015, at 4:18 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> using Thunderbird 

Which I’ve noticed has problems parsing the 

"General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 


No matter which platform anyone is using, it’s always Thunderbird that creates 
the gene...@classiccmp.org address into the To: field.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com

Re: email gripe

[Chuck Guzis]

On 07/07/2015 03:43 PM, jwsmobile wrote:


I just don't see inconveniencing an entire list because a few people
want to run on internet connected 286 machines, with attached ASR33's.

And to say that should carry much weight on selecting the format of the
email is pretty inconsiderate to everyone.


Well, I started out with the basic Unix mail program years ago, 
collecting my incoming mail using uucp.  It was better than most of the 
alternatives, including Compuserve and BBS setups (which I also used).


When things went to a GUI under Windows 3.1, I adopted Eudora, then 
Calypso, then...a list of others and finally am using Thunderbird under 
Linux.


It's pretty decent.  I don't have any problems viewing content.

Generally, I maintain two levels in my personal work--one is mostly 
up-to-date in tools; the other is mostly older tools that I'm used to 
and can use efficiently.  That includes a full-screen editor that hails 
back to my 8080 days and has been 'ported many times.


--Chuck

Re: email gripe

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: jwsmobile: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 3:43 PM
If there were a technical reason to keep it in a simple format that 
would be fine, but as Al K pointed out quite some time ago, Google 
already indexes all of this quite fine as it and most search engines do, 
so the list is text searchable.


For me, HTML mail is disdained because it's a security nightmare.
I don't want to worry about transparent tracking images, cookies, 
javascript, and who knows what else they've invented or will 
invent.


I just want to read what you've got to say.

I might want to follow your link, if I have sufficient interest and 
trust, but I want to have to make that decision *before* entering 
the spy filled, all-singing, all-dancing hype arena.


   Vince
--
o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email!

Re: email gripe

[jwsmobile]

On 7/7/2015 12:43 PM, Sean Conner wrote:

It was thus said that the Great jwsmobile once stated:

sending live URL's in the text that don't require a multi step copy
paste, or even save email edit, feed to lynx would be nice.  Html email
does that.

   There are some on this list (such as I) that do not use a graphical email
client, but a text-mode email  client. [1]

   -spc (And the etiquette for this list is inline or bottom posting, not
top)

[1] To even look at a attached PDF, for example, I have to save it
first, then download it to view it.
Most of us have either browser embedded PDF viewers, or Adobe associated 
with PDF's and are one click away.

Yes, I do check my email on the server using a command line program
[2].

[2] mutt.  I was forced to upgrade a decade ago because elm was no
longer maintained and non-Y2K compliant (I think that's why I
switched).


I just don't see inconveniencing an entire list because a few people 
want to run on internet connected 286 machines, with attached ASR33's.


And to say that should carry much weight on selecting the format of the 
email is pretty inconsiderate to everyone.


If there were a technical reason to keep it in a simple format that 
would be fine, but as Al K pointed out quite some time ago, Google 
already indexes all of this quite fine as it and most search engines do, 
so the list is text searchable.


As far as email browsing, I have used thunderbird and prior to that the 
same facility in the combined netscape.  The way of all emails seem to 
be towards letting some great and wonderful company such as your ISP, 
Google, Yahoo, or heaven forbid AOL keep all of your email, and present 
it, and even thunderbird has gone into "we don't support it anymore" 
status with Firefox.


So archiving my own email may end up in the same state as your argument 
for text archiving.  However the format of the email won't be an issue 
in my case.

Re: email gripe

[Mouse]

>> sending live URL's in the text that don't require a multi step copy
>> paste, or even save email edit, feed to lynx would be nice.

This is a client-side issue; there is no need to uglify the rest of the
email just because someone has an email reader that doesn't know what
to do with URLs.

>> Html email does that.

Only if the mail reader already knows how to handle such horrors.  And
there's no reason a GUI MUA can't turn URLs in text/plain text into
clickable links; I've seen it happen (over others' shoulders).

> There are some on this list (such as I) that do not use a graphical
> email client, but a text-mode email  client.

Me too.  Not that that is necessarily incompatible with HTML, though I
am not aware of any text MUAs that do anything with HTML but display it
like any other text.

But, send me mail that's HTML-only and it will be refused at SMTP time;
send me mail that's plain-and-HTML multipart and I will usually stop
reading when I see the HTML-uglified version.  (And yes, that means
right at the beginning if you put the HTML part first - which would be
a strange thing to do anyway, as multipart is defined to express sender
preference by ordering, with later parts more preferred.)

> [1]   To even look at a attached PDF, for example, I have to save it
>   first, then download it to view it.

Somewhat similar here: quit the less(1) that's reading the text, run
mimesplit on the message file ("mimesplit `mmpath cur`" is the usual
incantation), step through and save the attachment when I get to it,
then start up gs or pdftotext or whatever on it - possibly after
copying it to my desktop machine, possibly running on the mail-reading
machine but displaying on my desktop (those two machines sit less than
a foot apart and are in the same broadcast domain on my house network).

>   Yes, I do check my email on the server using a command line
>   program

So do I: my routine mail-reading machine is the same machine that my MX
record points to, the machine that handles incoming mail.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: email gripe

[Sean Conner]

It was thus said that the Great jwsmobile once stated:
> 
> sending live URL's in the text that don't require a multi step copy 
> paste, or even save email edit, feed to lynx would be nice.  Html email 
> does that.

  There are some on this list (such as I) that do not use a graphical email
client, but a text-mode email  client. [1]

  -spc (And the etiquette for this list is inline or bottom posting, not 
top)

[1] To even look at a attached PDF, for example, I have to save it
first, then download it to view it.  

Yes, I do check my email on the server using a command line program
[2].

[2] mutt.  I was forced to upgrade a decade ago because elm was no
longer maintained and non-Y2K compliant (I think that's why I
switched).

Re: email gripe

[jwsmobile]

sending live URL's in the text that don't require a multi step copy 
paste, or even save email edit, feed to lynx would be nice.  Html email 
does that.


thanks
Jim

On 7/7/2015 7:44 AM, dwight wrote:

What happened to email. If your into looking at something, look at the
source of this simple email.
What is all that html code for?
This is just a few simple text strings with nothing special needed.
Dwight
  
  		 	   		

email gripe

[dwight]

What happened to email. If your into looking at something, look at the
source of this simple email.
What is all that html code for?
This is just a few simple text strings with nothing special needed.
Dwight