Re: Computers that never crash (Was: Microsoft-Paul Allen)

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/23/18 9:32 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:

> I have a RPi dedicated to a SIMH VAX-11/750 running BSD that I
> intended to leave up and rack up some impressive uptime. Then I was
> reminded by the local electricity provider that this isn’t the right
> place to try that. We get clear day, calm weather power outages
> here.
If it doesn't crash, you're not running a sufficiently varied and
demanding workload.

c.f.Jim Gray's 1985 paper here:

http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/tandem/TR-85.7.pdf

--Chuck

Re: source for smt probe clip

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/27/18 9:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 10/27/18 7:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
>> EZ-Hook XKM
> 
> thanks!
> 
> https://sigrok.org/wiki/Probe_comparison
> 
> is a breakdown. they note that Salae used to ship EZ-Hook but now ship a 
> knock-off (no EZ-Hook name molded on)

They don't mention the Pomona 5790, which is pretty much a clone of the
Tek probe.

Still not cheap--about $10 each, lowest price.

--Chuck

Re: source for smt probe clip

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/27/18 4:19 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> Has anyone seen a source for these clips?
> 
> http://bitsavers.org/mysteries/salea_clip.JPG
> 
> They come with the Salae logic analyzer, and are like the HP logic analyzer 
> clips
> in that the wire is detachable, instead of the common style you can buy
> where you have to solder on a wire.

Pomona 5790?

Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 11/10/18 7:55 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> Typically, both the motor pulley and belt are changed as a set to keep the 
> distance from motor to flywheel the same.
> In my younger days, a friend and I ground down a motor pulley, on a 50 Hz 
> Shugart 800, to be a 60 Hz. We used a file while the motor ran. After getting 
> the right size, we had to file mounting holes for the motor to keep the same 
> belt. It was not the best way but we couldn't afford a new drive and we got 
> the drive cheap, from surplus.
> If you change the flywheel, the distance will be to great to use the same 
> belt or even close to the same belt. It may not even fit in the area allowed 
> for the flywheel.
> According to the manual, for this drive, only the motor pulley needs to be 
> changed as there is enough adjustment to use the same belt.

I was gifted a brand-new Qume 842 220V 50Hz drive many years ago.   The
220V was no problem--I had a dual-primary transformer on the power
supply, so it could be reconfigured as a 240V autotransformer and still
have enough capability for the drive electronics.  The problem was the
60Hz line frequency.  Essentially, the motor turns somewhat faster, so
you need a smaller motor pulley.  I calculated what I needed and found a
flanged toothed pulley for a timing belt that was exactly the right
size.  While the original motor pulley was crowned, the timing pulley
worked exactly as calculated.  It was not necessary to change the drive
belt--the size difference was small enough that it could be swamped out
by loosening the motor mounting bolts and adjusting.

I still have the drive today--and it still works.

--Chuck

Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 11/10/18 12:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> He needs a larger pulley if going from 60 to 50 ( as a motor pulley
>>> ). It needs to be 20% bigger because the motor turns slower on 50 Hz.
>>> 6/5 to be exact.
> On Sat, 10 Nov 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> No argument there--but the size increment is pretty small.  Consider
>> that a typical motor pulley is about 19 mm in diameter, so a 20%
>> increase would be only about 23 mm.
> 
> Depending on the drive, WHICH pulley should be changed?

The motor drive pulley is the easiest.  You might even find a ready-made
one in an engineering findings catalog.

Alternatively, consider this YT video for a DIY frequency changer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEiUt56elAw

--Chuck

Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 11/10/18 11:42 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> He needs a larger pulley if going from 60 to 50 ( as a motor pulley ). It 
> needs to be 20% bigger because the motor turns slower on 50 Hz. 6/5 to be 
> exact.
> Dwight

No argument there--but the size increment is pretty small.  Consider
that a typical motor pulley is about 19 mm in diameter, so a 20%
increase would be only about 23 mm.

One could also take Tony's approach and simply cobble up a
crystal-controlled 60Hz source for the motor.  Shouldn't be too
difficult--I suspect that the motor doesn't draw more than about 30W.
If you had an excess of 12VDC, you could possibly use an inexpensive
inverter to do the job.

--Chuck

Re: Bill Godbout

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 11/12/18 1:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Google has no mention.  Yet.
> How can we confirm?

Bill's family confirms and has set up a GoFundMe page for his wife and son:

https://www.gofundme.com/godbouttuckcampfirerelieffund

--Chuck

Re: desoldering (was Re: VAX 9440)

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 11/13/18 7:38 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:

> Instead, I use two pencil-type irons, one in each hand, working under
> a stereo microscope. The tips are much better, and manipulating each
> tip independently provides great control of what's going on. Only
> drawback is that if you want to use a fancy, expensive iron, now you
> get to buy two of them. If you're tempted by a soldering station with
> two or more outputs, make sure that it can drive both simultaneously.
> There are dual-output stations that have two outputs but can only run
> one at a time, as well as ones which can drive two irons at once.

After seeing the video on the ZD-985 some years ago on Dave's EEVBlog:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft50m8UU5WQ

I've been wondering if it's a worthwhile tool.  Does anyone have one of
these things?

--Chuck

Sun doc: "Writing Device Drivers for the Sun Workstation"

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

I discovered this one (Document 800-1304-05, 19 September 1986
Still in shirnk-wrap, so pristine.

I offered it to Al, but got no response.

FFS USA

--Chuck

Re: Anyone know where uPD2167 SRAMs appeared?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/09/2018 05:13 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:

> I asked a version of this question earlier this year.  I have not been
> able to find any vintage machines that used these 16Kx1 55ns SRAMs.
> Anyone recognize them?  Lots of them for sale on eBay.  Probably few
> buyers.  One would want to know which systems used them, thus my
> question.

Same as the Intel 2167, or InMOS 1403, no?  Like most SRAM of the time,
kind of power-hungry (180 ma @ 5V is about a watt per chip.  I've got a
pile of the InMOS variety, scavenged from a Eurobus design of some sort.

--Chuck

Re: BPK-72 or Bubble Memory Dummy Module + Seed Module

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

I disposed of a BPK-72 on eBay some years ago.  I think it sold for $30.

My recollection was that the thing was really power-hungry, particularly
for something that stored only 128Kbits.

--Chuck

Re: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/05/2018 05:05 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 10/5/18 4:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> I seem to remember that there was a "combo" manual that covered the
>> 51/52, 91/82 and 101/102.   Also, there was a 52M, but I never
>> encountered it in the wild.
> 
> double sided 48tpi, with some micropolis-unique feature?

Check my shelves, I think the 52M is Micropolis, but 100 tpi.

I'd have to double-check, but it looks that way at first glance.

Damn, I'm getting old.  I used to remember stuff like this.

--Chuck

Re: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/05/2018 05:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> On 10/5/18 4:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>>> I seem to remember that there was a "combo" manual that covered the
>>> 51/52, 91/82 and 101/102.   Also, there was a 52M, but I never
>>> encountered it in the wild.
> 
> On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> double sided 48tpi, with some micropolis-unique feature?

Again, I don't recall.  I do have a couple of 100 tpi MPI 5.25"
drives--I'm just not sure about what they're called.

Micropolis interface also, IIRC, had a *slightly* different pinout from
the standard Shugart SA400.

(pause while he checks)

Pin 2 - Head load
Pin 6 - Ready
Pin 34  Drive select 4

Just different enough to make for a little confusion.

I do have a Tandon TM-100-4M here with a "96 TPI DSR" sticker under the
latch, so the factory probably wasn't too careful about that.

Of course, neither Tandon nor MPI produced a drive that was even close
to Micropolis.  But almost nobody was as expensive as Micropolis either.
 Micropolis never gave up, IIRC, on its 4-steps-per-cylinder precision
leadscrew setup.

I've got a Micropolis 1115-VI drive here and it's a heavy wonder to
behold.   The whole stepper motor, leadscrew and head assembly pivots on
the drive door--usually, the stepper is attached to the main body of the
drive.

Further, it's a drive that features a microcontroller for drive spindle
speed control (no adjustments) as well as for providing a "buffered
seek" capability.   Fire step pulses at it at rates slower than 6
msec/step and it behaves normally.  Fire pulses at between 3-5 msec and
the drive goes into buffered seek mode.

It's a wonder to behold and, IIRC, was substantially more expensive than
anyone else's 5.25" floppy drives.   Sort of the antithesis of Jugi
Tandon's "make 'em cheap" approach.

No wonder Micropolis went out of the floppy business.

--Chuck

Re: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/05/2018 04:04 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:

> The 91/92 is pretty rare compared to the 51/52.   I bet one could glean
> *most* of what one would need from the 51/52 manual, but not all.  Could be
> totally different too.  The guy who contacted me I think wants to make his
> 91 "into" a 51.   But wow the 91/92 manual is not already scanned,
> surprised.

I seem to remember that there was a "combo" manual that covered the
51/52, 91/82 and 101/102.   Also, there was a 52M, but I never
encountered it in the wild.

--Chuck

Re: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

One last tidbit on the Micropolis floppy drives--the early drives (1014,
etc.) used a body/chassis made of steel plate.   The later drives (1115)
used cast body parts.

It's also worth observing that the leadscrew positioner is probably the
best, as it's the dominant technology in 135 tpi 3.5" drives.

--Chuck

Re: Milwaukee Computers MC-1200

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/03/2018 07:58 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

> One thing I noticed that made me nervous is looking at the code there is no
> checksum on either the sector address or data fields on the floppy. I made an
> image of a floppy that I bulk-erased and initialized this morning, and all you
> see are the sync bytes and data, no trailing data where a crc would be.

Looking at the ROM code disassembly, that certainly appears to be the
case.   Perhaps the attitude was "if you want to check your data,
include a check in the data yourself".   It wouldn't be the first time
that this was done.

Contrast with the Moto app note here for an 8" 3740-compatible setup
using the 6852:

http://www.bitsavers.org/components/motorola/6800/exorciser/AN764_A_Floppy_Disk_Controller_Using_the_MC6852_Oct76.pdf

I recall that a friend had a KIM-1 with the KMISI expansion and a single
SA400 floppy disk drive.  I don't recall the details, but getting
reliable operation was nearly impossible.

--Chuck

Re: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/20/2018 08:20 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
> Anyone have advice on making thermite? Ingredients, sources, proportions?
> 
> The internet seems to think that just using aluminum powder with ferric
> oxide is relatively hard to ignite, and that some manganese dioxide would
> help with that.
> 
> Without spending too much time shopping, it looks like I can get:
> * aluminum powder, 5 micron, 2 lb for $34
> * ferric oxide, 10 lb for $27
> * manganese dioxide, 1 lb for $39

I'd just give the drive to my friend with a big chipper "hog" and watch
the destruction. Maybe run over it with his D8 Cat a few times.   A good
hydraulic press should help.  Or just melt the thing down in a forge.

--Chuck

Re: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Anyone headed for Hawaii?  It'd be interesting to see what some molten
lava would do to one...

--Chuck

Re: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/24/2018 05:40 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> The only Raytheon I know of is Bob's 704
> http://dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/704.jpg
> 

These are all pretty boring--8-bit multiple word size, etc.

How about some 22-bit or 13 bit architectures?

--Chuck

Re: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Hi Gerard,

Yes, it's been there for some time.  Al K. uploaded it upon my request.
It turns out that my guesses about the architecture based on floppy disk
data were correct!

Thanks,
Chuck


On 09/25/2018 07:47 AM, GerardCJAT via cctech wrote:
> @ Chuck,
> 
> I know you know about the FST1 computer ( 24 bit ).
> Do you know that there is ( now ?? ) a bit of documentation about it on 
> Bytesavers ??
> 
> in  PDF/Fairchild/Sentry  
> 

Re: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

I haven't heard any discussion about the Fujitsu coax terminals.  I had
a few, but scrapped them back in the mid 1980s.   I saved a couple of
the hermaphroditic twinaxial connectors from them, however.  I don't
recall seeing such connectors anywhere else.

--Chuck

Re: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/25/2018 08:45 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Sep 2018, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> How about some 22-bit or 13 bit architectures?
> 
> How about our Dietz MINCAL 523? 19 bit architecture, memory is 20 bits
> with parity. Microprogrammed machine, microcode within normal address
> space, mixed twos-complement and sign-magnitude arithmetic. Completely
> reverse-engineered due to lack of information :-))
> 8K core memory, microcode and boot loader stored in foil ROMs (similar
> to wire rope ROMs).

I was wondering if anyone would rise to the challenge.  In fact, some
Harvard-architecture MCUs have unusual *instruction* word lengths.

I think the PB250 was 22/44 bits and, of course, there was a whole horde
of 36-bit mainframes, some extending well into the 1980s, as well as
other systems with multiples of 6 bit lengths.

How many of today's ISAs are *not* byte-addressable nor implement a
stack?  I'm somewhat curious as to how HLLs have influenced our thought
regarding architecture.

--Chuck

Re: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/27/18 10:32 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:

> If you want something that can easily be shipped and moved around one
> option is a Qualstar 1052. I wasn't impressed with the quality and
> performance of those. I gave away the ones I had. They do 1600 (and
> 3200), but not 6250.

The 1260 (or later) will do 6250, but I can't recommend it--it isn't
terribly good at reading tapes that the Fuji does fine on.  I suspect a
couple of reasons for this--the transport mechanism itself and the very
low speed at 6250 (less induced EMF in the head).

If that's not important, it is pretty lightweight and comes in a SCSI
version as well.

--Chuck

Re: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/27/18 9:46 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 9:17 AM W2HX via cctalk  wrote:
>>
>> I've been building up a nice little PDP-11/23+ with cabinets, RL02's etc. To 
>> really round things off, I'm looking for a open reel-to-reel style 9-track 
>> tape drive to add to the system (don't ask why, punishment must be somewhere 
>> in my nature).  Not interested in the autoloading/drawer type drives.
>>
>> There are some fujitsu drives on ebay at the moment, but shipping from CA to 
>> NY is both costly and risky.
>>
>> Does anyone have a (preferably working) 9-track drive that can be used with 
>> a PDP-11 (like a pertec interface) for sale? Willing to drive anywhere from 
>> Philly to Boston for one.
>>
> 
> If you can find a Fujitsu M2444AC within driving distance that is a
> good option. The cache buffer in the drive can prevent a lot of
> start/stop action with a slower host. I have used one to install
> 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 on PDP-11 systems with Pertec controller
> boards. But at somewhere around 200 pounds they are not something you
> want to ship.

If you;re only interested in 1600 PE and 6250 GCR, the Fuji drive is a
great choice--well-constructed and easy to operate.  Yes, it is pretty
heavy, but in the universe of open-reel tape drives, it's a
featherweight.  Not sure about 200 lbs, though.  I managed to get mine
off a pickup truck bed onto a dolly, up a short flight of stairs and
into a 6' rack single-handedly.

Maybe I was just lucky or stupid.

--Chuck

Re: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/29/18 11:49 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> I just passed along three boxes of these to the VCFed collection.
> Eventually I assume there will be a library to make these available onsite,
> not sure.

Stupid question, but doesn't IEEE CS already have these archived?  (Yes,
I know for access, you need to cross their palm with silver, but it
might point to copyright issues).

--Chuck

Re: CDC transistor boards

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/29/18 12:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
> I think the Cyber 70s used the later modules (the multilayer and/or IC 
> things).

Nope, the Cyber 70s were very minor upgrades to the 6000 series.  A
bunch of QSEs were made standard features, such as CMU (lower Cyber),
CEJ, ILR, etc.  Same cordwood modules, though.  Blue-glass and fake wood
skins, mostly.  I witnessed a 6400 being upgraded to a Cyber 73; most of
it was cosmetic.

The 170s were quite different, however.

--Chuck

Re: Osborne-1 with prototype-based motherboard

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/29/18 12:53 PM, Brad H via cctalk wrote:

> I've posted a blog about it here with a picture of the board for those
> curious:  http://bradhodge.ca/blog/?p=1186

If you can run down any of the old Sorcim crowd, say, Richard Frank or
Marty Herbach, they might have saved some information.

I first saw the O1 when Richard showed me into a room with the various
bits strewn about on a tabletop (no case yet).  I opined that it would
never sell with the tiny display.

--Chuck

Re: wanted back issues IEEE ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING bound or unbound... dtop us a line off list please.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

I wish I would have known.  I joined IEEE Annals at the beginning.   I
eventually dropped my subscription because I found that the inaccuracies
would just make me mad.

I threw out a bunch of ACM SIGPLAN notices (the local library didn't
want them) from the 1978s.  Still need to get rid of a pile of old CACM
rags as well as IEEE Computer.  I'm staring at a pile of IEEE Micro and
a bunch of PC-related magazines from the 80s-90s (e.g. "DOS Developer's
Journal", which became "Windows/DOS Developer's Journal", which became
"Windows Developer's Journal", which was then thankfully put out of its
misery by merging into Doctor Dobbs').

I still have a bunch of "PC Tech Journal" and other various periodicals.

If anyone's looking for something special, let me know.  They'll all be
gone to the recycler by the end of January.

--Chuck

Re: CDC transistor boards

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Were the brackets on the 1700 cordwood modules shorter than the 6000
series?  I've got a switch module here in a desk drawer--it's a
3-position switch labeled A O C and is illuminated with a couple of reed
relays on the PCB.   PCB size is the same as 6000, as is the connector,
but bracket is definitely shorter.  Top PCB is labeled E03A; bottom is E04A.

I never did discover what it belonged to.

--Chuck

Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 1/2/19 10:44 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:

> Also, recall that there are different forms of micro-code: horizontal
> and vertical.  I think that IBM (in the S/360, S/370, S/390, z/Series)
> uses the term micro-code for horizontal micro-code and millicode
> for vertical microcode.

On the CDC STAR-100, "microcode" as such was a relatively recent concept
and the designers went overboard, mostly because of an ill-defined
customer base (hence, BCD and other commerical-class instructions, like
translate, edit and mark, etc.).  The STAR is basically a RISC-type
vector architecture with a pile of microcoded instructions bolted on.
While this results in a great many instructions, many were used little.
It's hard to grasp that the same guy who designed the CDC 6400 (a RISC
architecture) also designed the STAR-100.

It's worth noting that all 256 8-bit opcodes are used; many are modified
by another 8-bit modifier quantity whose meaning varies greatly.  In
effect, you have something closer to 1000 distinct instructions, if not
more.

For a compiler writer, or even an assembly coder, this was more of a
problem--which combination of instructions could be used to the greatest
effect?  And why do I have to have the hardware manual on my desk to
look up instructions?

Subsequent embodiments of the architecture dropped a great many
microcoded instructions, with, as far as I can tell, no deleterious effect.

The manual for the STAR-100 hardware description is on bitsavers under
cdc/cyber/cyber_200 if you're curious.

Some earlier computers implemented additional instructions by
hard-coding subroutines whose entry address was determined by the
op-code of the instruction.  Macro-coding, if you will.

--Chuck

Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for modern designs

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 1/2/19 8:02 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

> Random logic instruction decode was a REAL issue in about 1960 - 1965,
> when computers were built with discrete transistors.  The IBM 7092, for
> instance, had 55,000 transistors on 11,000 circuit boards.  I don't know
> how much of that was instruction decode, but I'll guess that a fair bit
> was.  The IBM 360's benefited from microcode, allowing them to have a
> much more complex and orthogonal instruction set with less logic.
> 
> But, once ICs were available, the control logic was less of a problem. 
> But, microcode still made sense, as memory was so slow that performance
> was dictated by memory cycle time, and the microced did not slow the
> system down.  Once fast cache became standard, then eliminating
> performance bottlenecks became important.  And, once we went from lots
> of SSI chips to implement a CPU to one big chip, then it was possible to
> implement the control logic within the CPU chip efficiently.

I don't know--"microcode" in today's world is a very slippery term.   If
you're talking about vertical microcode, then I'm inclined to agree with
you.  But even ARM, which is held up as the golden example of
microcode-less CPU design, is programmed via HDL, which is then compiled
into a hardware design, at least in instruction decoding. So ARM is a
programmed implementation.   I suspect that if x86 microcode were to be
written out in HDL and compiled, Intel could make the same claim.

I think of it as being akin to "interpreted" vs. "compiled"
languages--the boundary can be rather fuzzy (e.g. "tokenizing",
"p-code", "incremental compilation"... etc.)

--Chuck

Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!)))

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 1/4/19 8:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> Would be  interesting when you find it.
> Not necessarily "tiny"
> Remember WATFOR?   (very impressive!)

I guesss not too many numerical methods types hwere, but ELTRAN is a
subroutine in the EISPACK linear programming set.  Yes, it's all FORTRAN:

>From the subroutine:

c
c this subroutine is a translation of the algol procedure elmtrans,
c num. math. 16, 181-204(1970) by peters and wilkinson.
c handbook for auto. comp., vol.ii-linear algebra, 372-395(1971).
c
c this subroutine accumulates the stabilized elementary
c similarity transformations used in the reduction of a
c real general matrix to upper hessenberg form by  elmhes.

--Chuck

Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!)))

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Since it was a 53-year old high-school project, I doubt that you're
going to find much on it.   However, see the post by Steve Schweda here:

https://community.hpe.com/t5/Operating-System-OpenVMS/Left-shift-by-more-than-32-bits-gt-undefined-in-DEC-C/td-p/5054212

He may actually have some familiarity with ELTRAN and know where some
documentation exists.

--Chuck




On 1/5/19 10:10 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Okay, I think I found the reference to it.
> 
> It turns out that it was a high-school student's project entered in the
> "Fourth Annual Computer Programming Contest for Grades 7 to 12'.  To quote:

Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!)))

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Okay, I think I found the reference to it.

It turns out that it was a high-school student's project entered in the
"Fourth Annual Computer Programming Contest for Grades 7 to 12'.  To quote:

"The 1966 winner was William J. Elliott, a 12th grade student at West
High School in Minneapolis.  His project, ELTRAN, is an algorithmic
language compiler system for the UNIVAC 422 computer.  Until the
development of ELTRAN, no compiler existed for the computer."

See PDF page 10 here:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/computersAndAutomation/196701.pdf

--Chuck

P.S.  One of these days, I'm going to host a course on "how to use Google".

Re: EmuVR & videogames & monitors...

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 1/17/19 10:04 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:

> Monolith in a bedroom, anybody?

Speaks of the generation, I guess--a bookcase with no books.

--Chuck

Re: EmuVR & videogames & monitors...

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 1/17/19 12:57 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 17, 2019 at 11:29:54AM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> On 1/17/19 10:04 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> Monolith in a bedroom, anybody?
>>
>> Speaks of the generation, I guess--a bookcase with no books.
> 
> Just in case you have just judged me: if I post a link it really only
> means I notice a trend, not that I endorse it. :-)

It's interesting, is all--no reflection on you.  Maybe paper is obsolete
and I'm just behind the times.

--Chuck

Boxes ready to send, need address confirmation.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Hi Gene,

I have two 35 lb. boxes of magazines ready to go; I just need address
confirmation.

Thanks,
Chuck

Re: Boxes ready to send, need address confirmation.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Oops, please ignore, wasn't supposed to go to the list.

--Chuck

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/17/18 9:51 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:

> Except it is *much* more expensive than MRAM.  32x8 NVSRAM is $18.50 in qty 1 
> from Digikey.
> A 64Kx16 MRAM is $11.84 in qty 1 from Digikey.  MRAM requires no additional 
> circuitry so that
> also reduces the overall cost (and has unlimited write endurance).

nvSRAM is sole-sourced technology, so there's a premium.

The crazy thing is that I was using the Xicor NOVRAM in the late
70s-early 80s.  I still have a parts drawer full of X2444 8-pin DIPs
from about that time.  The technology appears to be roughly the same.

Xicor got gobbled up by Intersil V2; Intersil V1 got gobbled up by
Harris and then spun off again as Intersil V2 and then gobbled up by
Renesas.

You really need a program to tell the players apart.

FWIW, there seems to be increasing interest in NVDIMMs:

https://www.electronicdesign.com/industrial-automation/why-are-nvdimms-suddenly-hot

I have no doubt that by the time they're wiping the drool from my face
and wheeling me in front of the TeeVee to pass the time, that engineers
will be discussing their favorite 20 psec. 8 exabyte non-volatile RAM
chips...

--Chuck

Re: Data Electronics Incorporated (DEI) CMTD-300S2 tape drive manual

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

I've got a 3M DCD drive that's very similar--fixed multi-track head.
I've never seen a practical use for it, however, given the terribleness
of old QIC carts.

DEI also re-packaged the Exabyte 8mm transports in their own enclosures
with their own LCD readouts.   I've got one such drive here.

--Chuck



On 12/14/18 9:46 PM, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote:
> For view or download:  http://bit.ly/2RZK28Q
> 
> I came across this, and noticed that this early of a DEI model was not yet
> archived at
> 
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dei
> 
> I'm not sure that it is scanned to the requirements of bitsavers, but I
> don't have access to the original, so I offer this if it is usable or of
> interest to anyone here.
> 
> I'll probably also post it on one of my sites, at http://QICreader.com
> 
> I also just acquired this DEI 301034-2 QIC Tape Drive, and have begun to
> reverse-engineer it.
> https://ebay.to/2EjyxFn
> 
> Best always,

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/15/18 1:30 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:

> True. Lessening the pain still doesn't make it right :). MRAM or FRAM does
> sound a lot simpler to use...

How about nvRAM?  Faster, with high capacity.   Stores into flash
(every CMOS RAM cell is paired with a flash cell) when the supply drops
below a certain level; restores data to RAM upon power-up.

http://www.cypress.com/products/nvsram-nonvolatile-sram

--Chuck

Re: ◾NSC 8477 Was: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/19/18 10:40 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote:
>> No, the CCIV initially had a plain-jane Intel rev 0 82077AA in a 68 pin
>> PLCC.  After Intel "improved" the chip to the 82077AA-1, FM ceased to
>> work.  Fortunately, as I mentioned NSC 8477 is a plug-in replacement,
>> with the exception of not needing an extra external cap (the pin is NC
>> on the National chip).
> 
> Chuck,
> 
> I read through the thread at VCF and see that the 8473 is not drop-in 
> swappable with the 8477. One more question on the 8477 do you know if there 
> is a significant difference between the 8477AV and the 8477BV revision? 
> Thanks.

No, I'm not aware of any specifics.  Both versions have worked for me.

--CHuck

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/21/18 11:32 AM, allison via cctech wrote:

> And the automotive reference was not it.  It was the straight as in not
> later lettered
> versions.  Best similar use is:  Whiskey straight, water on the side.

Could be--but I was pointed out that "straight eight" was an automotive
term familiar to the laity that pre-dated DEC by a goodly number of
years.  We live in a world dominated by automobile marketing.

I suspect the same common connection to "turbo", popularized by the auto
marketeers.

On the other hand, I've never seen a computer advertised with  a
"Turbo-Hydra-Matic" or "Dynaflow" feature.

--Chuck

Re: OCR old software listing.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/26/18 3:17 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 12/26/18 2:55 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Scan them all as-is, put them up and 'crowd source' this list
> 
> And TYPE the programs in again

I've found that it's often the best course of action and consumes the
least time overall.  You also have a better chance of understanding the
code.

--Chuck

DG Nova 4 for pickup on Lon Gisland

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Cribbed from VCF:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Data-General-NOVA4-Nova-4-nova-desktop-computer-minicomputer-8-floppy-vintage/332940164292?hash=item4d84c7bcc4:g:2skAAOSwqIhcDrmI:rk:39:razz:f:0

Chuck

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/16/18 11:21 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> If you simply want non-volatile memory, the obvious answer is SRAM with 
> battery backup and a small FPGA to do the interfacing.

I proposed nvRAM - CMOS SRAM backed by cell-for-cell flash.  Loads SRAM
from flash on power-up and stores into flash at power-down.  All that's
needed is a capacitor to extend the power-down cycle a bit.

Very fast, available in 8 to 32-bit wide architectures, up to 16Mbit per
package.

Claims to be guaranteed for 1M power cycles and doesn't require a battery.


--Chuck

Re: wanted any and all XSCRIBE closed caption related and steno typer key board related ... docs... parts.. units building up an working analog CC demo chain for display in our Deaf and Hard of Hearin

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/23/18 5:52 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:
> wanted any and all XSCRIBE closed caption related and steno typer key board  
> related ... docs... parts.. units building up an  working analog CC  demo 
> chain for display in our Deaf and Hard of Hearing assisting tech area.  will 
> consider othe brand gear to if even just for static display too
> Interested in ad materials photos, war stories. etc etc 
>   thanks. Ed Sharpe

My experience with CC conversion for Fox Home Video was that the WGBH
system was used for closed-captioning on the early stuff.   IIRC, the
systems used were Zilog MCZ with custom software.  (132 byte
hard-sectored floppies).   I also did some 5.25" stuff from a later time
but I don't recall the details, just that it was different--but
generally followed the FCC standard.

--Chuck

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/15/18 10:01 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
> FRAM or MRAM.  I make extensive use of them in my projects.
> 
> Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v).  As I recall they run ~$20/ea for 4Mb 
> (512K x 8 or 256K x 16).

As neither MRAM nor FRAM requires a write-after-read refresh, I fail to
see the "realism" in this that couldn't be satisfied with simple
battery-backed RAM or even flash-backed RAM.

Yes, MRAM is magnetic, but ti's not the same principle as real core.

FWIW,
Chuck

Re: Origin of 'Straight 8' name

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Back in the first half the 20th century, there were various
configurations of 8-cylinder internal combustion engines.

We're all familiar with the V-8, but there were inline 8-cylinder
designs used primarily on luxury cars, making for a wonderfully long
engine compartment.  Cord, Buick, Packard, Chrysler and Oldsmobile all
offered the "straight 8" on their high-end models.  Those were called
"straight-eights", I suspect because of the attractiveness of rhyming
name. "Straight 8" configuration was also used on some aircraft as well.

I suspect the name for the early PDP-8 is just a convenient adaptation
of a once well-known automotive term, much like "V-8".

For what it's worth, Ford experimented with an X-8 configuration as
well, but never put it into production.

--Chuck

Re: More old stuff incoming

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/19/18 11:59 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote:
> On 2018-12-19 2:33 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

>>
>> when will someone be coming out with another sound card with a
>> vacuum tube on it?
>>
>> bill
>>
> 
> Hm, I do have some 12AX7's lying around...


Well, there have been PC motherboards (I can't remember the brand) with
a single tube installed...

--Chuck

Re: 34 pin Card Edge “Male to Male” Connector

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 11/28/18 5:13 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Nov 28, 2018, at 8:01 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure you're quite getting it... they say a picture is worth a 
>> thousand words:
>>
>> http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/20181128_194316.jpg
>>
>> Assuming I make up some gerbers myself, two questions:
>>
>> 1) how do you specify the slightly beveled edge required for easy insertion?
>> 2) is there some way to specify "hardened" or whatever plating for the 
>> connector traces?
>>
>> And actually a third: Does anyone have a particular PCB company that they 
>> like, communications wise?

My last order from OSHPark came with all traces gold-plated.
Apparently, it's getting to be standard practice.

--Chuck

Re: CDC floppy disks on Ebay.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/9/18 3:30 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote:

> FWIW, years ago a friend of mine found some important floppies of his had all
> developped mold on the magnetic surfaces. Which fouled read heads, making them
> useless. We found that slitting open the covers, taking out the disks and
> literally washing them in the bathtub with soap and water, drying, then 
> putting
> back in the covers, worked!

Back in the day, I was working with a group on a four-month project,
where the final version on 8" floppies of the (source) software was put
on display for a little celebration.  Management sprang for bottles of
bubbly, some munchies and some T-shirts--and the department had a small
party.

What no one noticed until the next day was that the stack of floppies
had been soaked through with champagne, and put away for the weekend.

Monday arrived--and the disks were a sticky mess.  Fortunately, the
treatment of washing and re-jacketing did the trick.  But there were
some very nervous people in the meantime.

Needless to say, we made several backup sets and sent two of them off to
the vault.

--Chuck

Re: TCL Terminal

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Don't know the exact product, but TCL INc. was in Fremont, CA and was a
maker of various bits of LAN gear.

--Chuck

Re: TCL Terminal

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 11/25/18 9:55 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 'TCL' are the initials of the person who created the first Ethernet 
> transceiver (Tat Lam).
> 
> 
> https://books.google.com/books?id=ooBqdIXIqbwC=PA73=PA73

I note that the same section mentions Jim Theornton.  I recall on a trip
to CDC ARHOPS in Arden Hills, seeing a backhoe trenching around the
employee parking lot.  The path didn't make much sense, so I asked a
co-worker about it.  "Oh, that's Jim Thornton laying his coax loop."...

--Chuck

Re: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 11/25/18 2:53 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 23:42, Grant Taylor via cctalk
>  wrote:
> 
>> I bet you see all sorts of things that I'm ignorant of.
> 
> It's been enlightening!

I routinely get Turkish and Greek spam in my mailbox--and I've gotten
Cyrillic-alphabet stuff as well.

Shrug.  We all live on the same planet.

--Chuck

Re: Text encoding Babel. Was Re: George Keremedjiev

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 11/27/18 6:23 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> I love the use of an arrow for assignment.  In teaching, a student's
> FIRST encounter with programming can be daunting.  Use of an equal sign
> immediately runs up against the long in-grained concept of commutative
> equality.  You would be surprised how many first time students try to
> say 3 = X .  Then, of course,
> N = 1
> N = N + 1
> is a mathematical "proof by induction" that all numbers are equal!
> (Don't let a mathematician see that, or the universe will cease to
> exist, and be replaced by something even more inexplicable!)

It's worth noting that in 1963 ASCII, hex 5E was the up-arrow (now the
circumflex) and hex 5F was the left-arrow (now underline).

It's also worth nothing that in the original CDC 6-bit display code,
there were symbols, not only for left-to-right arrow, but not equals,
logical OR and AND, up- and down-arrow, equivalence, logical NOT,
less-than-or-equal, and greater-than-or equal--pretty much the original
Algool-60 special characters.

--Chuck

Re: FixMeStick

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 11/26/18 9:57 PM, ED MAJDEN via cctalk wrote:
> 
> Hello group:
>   Has anyone used a FixMeStick to fix computer issues like virus problems 
> and key tracking hacking?  Does it really fix such problems or create new 
> ones?  
> Thanx for any comments that are posted.
> Ed

A friend loaned me one and it didn't do a thing--but then, I'm running
Linux.

--Chuck

Re: Bogus "account hacked" message

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 1/8/19 12:20 PM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote:
> Delete it don’t respond and ignore it.. been getting them too.. change your 
> password
> If your that concerned.. it’s a fishing trip.. 

Yeah, I get the one occasionally that claims to have compromising video
taken with my PC's webcam.   Except, of course, my computer doesn't have
and never has had a webcam.

About the most persistent spam that I receive on my cctalk email are ads
from an outfit offering cheap Canadian drugs.

--Chuck

Re: OT? Upper limits of FSB

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 1/8/19 1:23 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote:

> Why so (why surprising, I mean)? Understood an unrolled loop executes
> faster...

That can't always be true, can it?

I'm thinking of an architecture where the instruction cache is slow to
fill and multiple overlapping operations are involved and branch
prediction assumes a branch taken.  I'd say it was very close in that case.

--Chuck

Re: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 1/8/19 1:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>
> I first encountered it about 60 years ago, in fifth grade.  Our textbook
> said, "PI is about 3.1416 or 22/7."  Our teacher insisted that that
> sentence meant "PI is about 3.1416, or exactly 22/7."  I argued it.  I
> pointed out that 22/7 was about 3.1429, and "why would they say 'about
> 3.1416' instead of 'about 3.1429' if it were actually 22/7?"  I got sent
> to the principal's office.  My father, who COULD recite a dozen digits
> of PI gave me a hard time about "staying out of trouble".
>

3.142 was good enough for Edward Elgar.

--Chuck

Re: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 1/8/19 3:04 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> But, using a crude code of 'A' = 1, 'B' = 2, 'C' = 3, etc.
> "ELGAR" appears in PI at decimal digits 7608455

I suspect that Pi, to a sufficient number of places could decode
anyone's surname.

No, I'm thinking of "Nimrod"...

--Chuck

Re: Anyone want an irman (Infrared to serial dongles)

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 1/8/19 8:18 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:
> 
> Chuck we would like a couple..  ed at smecc

For the keyboards, my source is Electronics Goldmine
(https://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/) for the keyboards.  Usually
$10 each, but go on sale every now and then for $5.

"Blue Pills" can be gotten off of ebay or aliexpress.  I use a 38 kHz
TSOP4838 DIP-3 IR Receiver.   For the USB version, it's mostly a matter
of soldering on the sensor to the Blue Pill and programming it.

So no custom boards or anything.  I like cheap.

--Chuck

Re: Bogus "account hacked" message

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 1/8/19 9:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> 
> "Windows Technical Department"
> "Windows Company"  !!?!
> 

I used to get one of those calls every few days, but I'm using a
screening service, so I haven't gotten one in months.

Too bad!  I used to have a lot of fun playing dumb.  "Vindows" key?
Where is that (I'm using an IBM Model M)?  Now, go to your start menu
and select "Run program".   Huh?  What do you mean "start menu"?  (I'm
running Linux) I have several more computers, would you like me to try them?

Sometimes I could tie the scammer up for 15-20 minutes before he'd hang
up, very often after uttering an obscenity.

--Chuck

Re: Anyone want an irman (Infrared to serial dongles)

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 1/8/19 3:05 PM, David Brownlee via cctalk wrote:
> While tidying up I've found a few Irman infrared to serial dongles
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20060314052558/http://www.evation.com/irman/index.html
> 
> they connect via a 9 pin serial plug and then convert any consumer
> remote IR signals they receive into serial.

I just posted on github a little project that takes a cheap surplus (my
last ones cost $5 NOS) IBM iPoint IR keyboard and converts it to PS/2
keyboard protocol using a cheap STM32F103 "Blue Pill" and a 3-terminal
38KHz IR receiver.   I'm currently writing the USB version which will
support the "nipple mouse" as well.

The keyboards aren't bad--they're made by Silitek ca. 1992 and have a
decent feel for a rubber dome keyboard.

The point is that with modern MCUs, any IR stuff is easy-peasy.  My
little Chinese LCR tester even reads and displays IR codes.

--Chuck

Re: Interest in a DiscFerret?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 1/10/19 5:16 PM, Chris Pye via cctalk wrote:

> There is a 13 sector version of ADTPro. All you need is a working
> Apple II or IIe with a floppy drive and serial card (or ethernet
> card). It can even bootstrap the Apple into 13 sector DOS 3.2 mode
> and then you can read and transfer disk images to a PC via serial or
> ethernet. Then use CiderPress to read the files from the disk
> images.

Jim Sather's "Understanding the Apple IIe" has a wonderful exposition on
the workings of the Apple II disk controller.  Without having an Apple
II at my disposal in the 80s, I was able to construct a rather simple
ISA card for a PC that would read Apple floppies.

Then I got a MatchPoint PC card.

Now, of course, handling Apple II floppies can be done with $3
microcontroller card.

--Chuck

Re: ELTRAN THE COMPILER ANY DOCS? (NOT THE SEMICONDUCTOR STUFF!)))

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 1/13/19 11:47 AM, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote:

>   Yup.  He did it intentionally because, as he said, most of his friends
> were hard of seeing, and by using ALL CAPS the letters were bigger and thus,
> easier to read.  But the new Chromebook removed the CAPSLOCK key.
> 
>   The fact that most email clients [1] could use a larger font was lost on
> him.

Ctrl-"+"?

Being an old hard-of-seeing guy myself, I much prefer mixed-case to
all-caps.  All caps destroys the "shape" of words.

--Chuck

Re: CDC transistor boards

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/29/18 10:47 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> Statistically, it is more likely to be a 1700 module (a more common
> machine). The front bracket is missing, which is the easy way to
> distinguish the two types.

That's an interesting observation, but I'm not sure I'd agree with you.
While there were more 1700s in circulation, the sheer number of modules
used in 6000/Cyber machines and peripherals might tilt the balance the
other way.

--Chuck

Re: CDC transistor boards

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/29/18 10:47 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> Statistically, it is more likely to be a 1700 module (a more common
> machine). The front bracket is missing, which is the easy way to
> distinguish the two types.

Don't know what the 1700 count was, but each 6600 had about 6,000
modules--and then there were the 6400s, 6500s and 6700s, as well as ECS
controllers...not to mention the CYBER 70 series...

--Chuck

Re: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/28/18 10:46 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:

> I have a Qualstar 1260 (Pertec Interface) and connected it to a
> PDP-11/23 with an Emulex TC02.  It was fun to see it spin the tape and
> read/write data.  I could just imagine what torture it was to collect
> data or install operating systems that way.

Didn't seem like torture back in the day.  If you were in systems
development, it was a convenient way to test various
configurations--just grab the right tape and IPL/Deadstart/Boot from it.

In fact, disk storage was initially meant to be "working store", not
storage for masses of data.   If a disk drive crashed (and they did),
you had the more reliable tape.   If you were the systems type, you
probably had a stash of your own tapes in your office.

I can remember hopping the "noon balloon" out of San Jose with a large
Samsonite briefcase full of tapes (you could carry 6 reels in it; I
still have the case.   It was often the best and least expensive way to
get a mass of sensitive data cross-country.

Anyone remember 7090 IBSYS or FMS?  TOS/360?

--Chuck

Re: WTD: 9 track open reel for PDP-11

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/28/18 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> But, not quite as much bandwidth as a station wagon full of tapes
> hurtling down the highway.

I once rode on an USAF general's jet with a load of 844 packs.  That
probably was pretty good bandwidth for the time...

One thing that escapes many who have never "been there" is that tape is
*cheap* compared to other forms of storage for the same time.
Government, institutions and corporations didn't just buy them by the
pallet-load; they bought them by the truckload.

Another thing often not considered is that open-reel tape is extremely
durable.  Use a reel for a year or two, have it cleaned and recertified,
and you're off and running.   Usually, during the process, the tapes got
shorter, as they tended to wear more at the beginning of the reel.
Discard the dicey section, put on a new BOT marker and you're good for
another year or two.  A five-to-ten year working life on a reel of tape
was not unusual at all.

Let's see you do that with your LTO carts!

--Chuck

Re: CDC transistor boards

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/28/18 12:42 PM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctech wrote:
> Gentlemen of advanced years who can remember CDC, cradle of Cray. 
> 
> Can you tell me which CDC computer type these three boards belonged to? It
> is for labeling purposes in my personal museum.
> 
> https://postimg.cc/crJHv3Lt 
> https://postimg.cc/Z0HnYH4h
> https://postimg.cc/6TtTNgs0
> 
> I am sure this will be easy for the right person. Many thanks!
> 
> peter
> 
The second one is a 6000-series "cordwood" module.

--Chuck

Re: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

For those musically uninitiated, my reference to Elgar was the
interesting discovery by an amateur musician that the "enigma" of the
"Nimrod" variation, which has been debated by musicologists for the last
century or so, is very likely pi.

Consider that by assigning a number to the degrees of the scale, you
have 3.142 =

mi do fa re, or the opening notes that Elgar referred to in his letters
for his "small circle of friends".

Here's a YT performance of Nimrod so you can see how often this theme
occurs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUgoBb8m1eE

Musicologists generally don't like the proposed solution, but bear in
mind that the "Enigma Variations" were composed at nearly the same time
that the Indiana Pi Bill was being ridiculed by the literate world.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill

Politicians!

--Chuck

Re: Teaching Approximations (was Re: Microcode, which is a no-go for

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 1/9/19 9:36 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:

> I always wondered how do people know that those computed digits of pi,
> out to millions and millions of digits, are correct?
> 
> Do different algorithms or methods give the same answer?

That's basically the idea.   For example, you can start with the series
approximation of arctangent(1) which is basically

1-1/3+1/5-1/7...

and multiply by 4, and it will converge (slowly) to pi.  Using any of
the other methods enumerated on Wolfram:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PiFormulas.html

yield the same converging-to-pi result..

Wolfram also has some interesting "approximations" to pi that I had
never encountered:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PiApproximations.html

The point is that pi figures deeply into mathematics and so can be
"discovered" by a variety of methods.

--Chuck

Re: Unknown US manufacturer - try again

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

I suspect that it's from a trainer of some sort.


Stewart-Warner quad 2-input NAND DTL stuff.  So probably not RCA.


--Chuck

Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 17

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/17/2018 12:11 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote:
> I recall the SAGE was an integrated system of control for Interceptors.
> It began in the 1950's and became fully operational with the
> F106 fighter interceptor aircraft.  It could control an entire
> intercept from wheels up to flare on landing.  I never thought I'd SEE
> a chunk of the system.  Thanks!  I think it stood for Semi-Automatic
> Ground Environment, or some such.
> 
> What kind of cores does it use?  I once saw a board of Ruby Rod core
> memory at a junkyard.  Very beautiful.

Dunno, but I had a manager with SAGE experience.  He said it was very
useful for keeping one's lunch warm.

--Chuck

Re: Beehive terminals

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 09/11/2018 02:35 AM, Jeffrey H. Johnson via cctalk wrote:
> The Beehive ATL-008 (ANSI/VT102 terminal) might be an obscure
> terminal today, but it holds a special place in my heart as the first
> hardware terminal I used extensively, and was advanced (for 1982),
> supporting user programming in C.
> 
> It was based on the 68008 and had quite the nice interface, and
> extensions like soft keys.

Durango used Beehive VT100/VT220 (I'm not sure which)) on their Poppy
systems (which are probably even rarer than the terminals).  The
terminals were re-badged as Durango.

I was a bit surprised to find that the Super Bee (of which I was very
fond in the day) was re-badged as an HP 2616A.

8008 CPU, with shift-register memory, IIRC.  A heavy, slab-sided
terminal with a welded (?) aluminum case.  Several illuminated keys.


--Chuck.

Re: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL WAS: RE: More old stuff incoming

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/19/18 12:10 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote:

> The controller chip used on that FDC is the same as found on some Adaptec
> AHA-15xx series cards, which have been the go-to for a long time on adding
> FM support to PCs whose onboard controllers don't support it.

I don't think that's correct, when I look at my Adaptec 1542, which uses
(as did some Future Domain and DTC) SCSI controllers, the NSC 8473,
which was a very nice chip--it even supports writing 128-byte MFM
encoded sectors

The item shown uses the National 8477, which is basically a clone of the
old Intel 82077.   Still good for FM, but not writing 128 byte sector MFM.

Micro Solutions initially shipped the CompatiCard IV with the Intel
chip--and it worked well.  Intel then revised the chip as the 82077AA-1
to add tape support and broke the FM capability.  When I inquired about
this to Intel, I got the response "Who uses FM anymore?".   Micro
Solutions sent a bunch of retrofit kits with NSC chips in them to a
small bunch of CC IV purchasers after they discovered the problem.
Fortunately, the 8477 is pin-compatible with the 82077.

I remember working with Andrew on his card and assembled a prototype,
which worked, but showed some component placement issues.  My objection
was the serial port and large ROM was completely unnecessary; in fact, I
left that unpopulated on my board.

FWIW,
Chuck

Re: More old stuff incoming

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/19/18 7:41 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote:
>> Really? Show me one that is 1) in current production, 2) offers the
>> full ISA bus (not just some decoded address lines and 8 data lines),
>> 3) plugs into a PCI slot.
>> Christian
> 
> Surprised no one has used something like an ATMega or cheap USB
> connected ARM to build a USB to ISA adapter with tie in to DOSBox or
> some other emulator.
> 

For what it's worth, I've never seen an ISA to USB or ISA to PCI
"bridge" implementation that was fully functional--and that includes P4
and later motherboards using a bridge chip.  I've been round the block
with a couple of motherboard vendors.

Some leave out legacy DMA support; others are so incomplete that the
legacy drivers don't even see the ISA card in question or that the
memory space isn't accurately mapped.

Using an ATMega to access a 16-bit ISA board with full DMA, interrupt
and local ROM seems to be a bit beyond the MCU's capabilities.

I'll be happy to be proved wrong.

--Chuck

Re: NSC 8477 Was: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/19/18 5:38 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote:
>> Micro Solutions initially shipped the CompatiCard IV with the Intel
>> chip--and it worked well.  Intel then revised the chip as the 82077AA-1
>> to add tape support and broke the FM capability.  When I inquired about
>> this to Intel, I got the response "Who uses FM anymore?".   Micro
>> Solutions sent a bunch of retrofit kits with NSC chips in them to a
>> small bunch of CC IV purchasers after they discovered the problem.
>> Fortunately, the 8477 is pin-compatible with the 82077.
> 
> Chuck,
> 
> Are you saying that CCIV initially had an NSC 8477 or an 8473? Or that it had 
> an Intel chip and when Intel came out with a new revision they went to an NSC 
> chip? Also are all CCIVs retrofitable? i.e. can I order an NSC chip and plop 
> it into my CCIV to get FM back? Finally can you drop in an NSC 8473 in a CCIV 
> to get 128-byte MFM or the best you can do is switch to a NSC 8477? TIA!

No, the CCIV initially had a plain-jane Intel rev 0 82077AA in a 68 pin
PLCC.  After Intel "improved" the chip to the 82077AA-1, FM ceased to
work.  Fortunately, as I mentioned NSC 8477 is a plug-in replacement,
with the exception of not needing an extra external cap (the pin is NC
on the National chip).

--Chuck

Re: More old stuff incoming

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/19/18 7:32 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote:
>>  I don't know how functional their solutions are and I've never had any
>> of
>> their products nor I have anything to do with them, but I've had this
>> link:  in my bookmarks just in case since
>> 2005.
>> I guess if they have been in that business for so long now, they must
>> have
>> been doing things right.
> 
> I can tell you for a fact that they do NOT support DMA so a non-starter for
> many things.

ISA is a bit more complex to emulate as it might at first appear.  Real
ISA supports I/O port addressing, memory addressing, DMA and interrupts.

The last chipset that I'm aware of that directly supported real ISA was
the Intel 440BX family (440Bx, GX and ZX).   Later chipsets use a
"bridge chip" that introduces incompatibilieis.

--Chuck

Re: MV II help

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/2/19 9:44 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

> A number of choices for OS.  OpenBSD or NetBSD should still work
> depending on the actual configuration of the system and VMS still
> has a hobbyist license.

PDP11s were used in various places around the USAF.  I duplicated a
bunch of RX50 floppies for the 11s used at Warner-Robbins as part of the
setup for maintaining C130s.  I probably have the images kicking around
in case someone has a C130 parked in their garage waiting for service.

--Chuck

Re: MV II help

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/2/19 12:44 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

> Ummm...  That's MV II or MicroVAX-II, not PDP-11.
> 
> Of course, I do have PDP-11's running here but no C-130's parked
> around the place.  Was impressed with the improvements in the J
> model in 2009, however.  :-)

Could be--I generally don't pay much attention to content, but could
well have been anything DEC-ish.  Just that it took RS50 floppies and I
know what it was used for.  But MV sounds better.

--Chuck

Re: Burroughs BU4400 tape drive. What is it?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/2/19 3:04 PM, mike--- via cctalk wrote:

> Looks like you're right! I'm pretty sure it's a cleaner. Everything on
> it seems to work well, once I figured out how it was intended to work.
> Just had fool the tape optical sensor (BOT/EOT?) with a piece of paper
> and it started up fine. It only seems to want to go 'slow' in reverse,
> but that may be something to do with the lack of tape. I like the tape
> counter a lot. It shows error codes when they occur, and is a dot matrix
> style LED display (perhaps not true dot matrix, just something nicer
> looking than a 7-segment display).

If you're going to use this thing, do check the carbide (sometimes
ceramic) cleaning blade.  You want the edge to be sharp and smooth; if
it's nicked or chipped, it will end up doing more harm than good.

I suspect that a carbide insert for machine tools might be cobbled up as
a replacement, if required.

--Chuck

Re: Burroughs BU4400 tape drive. What is it?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/2/19 7:23 PM, mike--- via cctalk wrote:

> The shipping guess was damn close - $97.94 (approx. NZD143.54), plus
> US$10 for the actual tapes. It actually sounds like quite a good deal,
> for brand new tapes. Thanks for the offer of the tape, if I get stuck
> I'll drop you a note.

It's $60 shipping inside the US, so $100 shipping sounds like a bargain.

However, if you'd like a full-szied 10.5" reel, these aren't that.  Look
like 600' reels, rather than the full-length 2400' ones.

--Chuck

Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 3/27/19 1:36 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> Most all 8 inch drives were synchronous capacitive phased AC motors. That is 
> until 3 phase low voltage motors started showing up on 5.25 disk drives.
> The ac motors on the 8 inch drives rarely had jumper options for 120/240V AC. 
> Most were fixed voltage and cycles. I can't recall any that I've seen that 
> had a voltage option.
> Dwight

I picked up a new Qume 842 for 220V 50 Hz and simply substituted a
flanged timing pulley for the crowned one, adjusted for the frequency
variation.   I powered it from the power supply transformer primaries
hooked as an autotransformer to give 240VAC.   Worked just fine.

--Chuck

Re: George Comstock

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 3/26/19 8:53 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> https://www.almanacnews.com/news/2019/03/25/george-comstock-silicon-valley-pioneer-and-portola-valley-civic-leader-dies

Thanks for that--I remember George well.

--Chuck

Re: Refillable spray can

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 3/24/19 2:34 AM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote:
>> Looks like a great idea but the reviews say otherwise. Dangerous even.
> 
>> How about a cheap airbrush kit?
> 
> Reminds me of something I picked up years back, and haven't seen another
> of - a rechargeable compressed air sprayer. Works more or less like the
> disposable "canned air" sprayers you get by the half dozen at Fry's or
> Microcenter, complete with the plastic straw to direct the air. But this
> one had a bicycle pump valve on the bottom so you could refill it as
> needed.

Isn't that what Fred pointed to?

--Chuck

Re: Refillable spray can

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 3/24/19 11:32 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> So this?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/EWK-Aluminum-Pneumatic-Refillable-Compressed/dp/B00JKED4MS
> 
> Just be sure to use a dryer on your compressor output.  Compressed air
> can hold a lot of moisture.

I'll also add that at 90 PSI, this won't hold much air for long--in the
reviews, that's the major complaint.   Better is a small "pony tank"
that can be charged and transported.

--Chuck

Re: Refillable spray can

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 3/24/19 10:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> Reminds me of something I picked up years back, and haven't seen another
>>> of - a rechargeable compressed air sprayer. Works more or less like the
>>> disposable "canned air" sprayers you get by the half dozen at Fry's or
>>> Microcenter, complete with the plastic straw to direct the air. But this
>>> one had a bicycle pump valve on the bottom so you could refill it as
>>> needed.
> 
> On Sun, 24 Mar 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> Isn't that what Fred pointed to?
> 
> Almost, and that part overlaps.
> I pointed to a refillable liquid sprayer. (we were talking about
> spraying paint)
> He's asking about a refillable air duster. (as opposed to the disposable
> "Dust-Off" from Fry's, etc.)

So this?

https://www.amazon.com/EWK-Aluminum-Pneumatic-Refillable-Compressed/dp/B00JKED4MS

Just be sure to use a dryer on your compressor output.  Compressed air
can hold a lot of moisture.


-Chuck

Storage for 1/2" open reel tape

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

I've noted earlier that the vinyl "hanger strips" for 1/2" magnetic tape
have been degrading, becoming brittle and simply breaking away,
sometimes in small particles.

So I set off looking for a low-cost substitute--any hangers that I could
rustle up would probably be on their last legs at this late date.

I hit on the idea of using 16mm move film plastic "cans".  Much to my
surprise, I found that there is still an active market for these things.

After getting a few samples, I've discovered that the 800' cans fit  a
10.5" reel (virtually all of the tape that I get) quite well.   I'm not
yet finished evaluating samples, but here's a photo of a can from Tuscan
Corporation holding a reel of tape:

https://i.imgur.com/KPKg75s.jpg

The cans are vented, so not hermetically sealed.  In the case of film,
this is apparently done intentionally, as the acetate base of older film
outgasses acetic acid, which only hastens degradation.

If anyone's interested, I'll continue to post updates.  I've got some
from Larry Urbanski coming in Monday.  Larry seems to have the lowest
price on these--about $5.75 each.

--Chuck

Re: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/5/19 5:31 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

> If this works, which is most of the time, it's a great time saver.  As an 
> operator you just hang the reel on the spindle, hit "load" and walk away to 
> the next task.
> 
> I think IBM may have originated this magic; several of the later DEC tape 
> drives supported it as well (TU77 and TU/TA78, if memory serves).

Univac had an interesting setup for Uniservo tape drives--I see a lot of
reels with a short (maybe 6") "leader" with a hole spliced onto tapes.
I'm not sure how that worked--but on many, if not most of the reels I've
seen, the splicing tape has dried out and the little leader just falls
right off.

--Chuck

Re: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/5/19 2:58 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/5/19 3:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> See how each reel of tape hangs from a slot in a horizontal bar? Those
>> white-and-black strips wrapped around the tapes are what I'm referring
>> to as being deteriorated.
> 
> How does that come off the reel?
> 
> Does the reel slide out?  Does it unlatch?  Do you have a picture of one
> without the tape reel in it?

The IRS facility photo used the IBM style; not flexible, but rather a
two-part sliding rigid plastic arrangement.  I think that the IRS also
used a robotic "picker.

I'd have to take a photo of one, I think, though if you have a very
ancient Wright-Line catalog, it's probably in there.

But basically, just behind the "hook", there's a black plastic latch.
When closed, it tensions the white band.

https://www.electronicsurplus.it/open2b/var/products/27/92/0-d95b2a25-800.jpg

what was convenient with those is that the latch-and-hook are attached
to the vinyl band by fitting with a couple of holes punched in the band.
 In a pinch, you could make hangers for smaller (than 10.5") reels by
cutting and punching new holes.

--Chuck

Re: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/5/19 1:49 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote:
>> I hit on the idea of using 16mm move film plastic "cans".  Much to my
>> surprise, I found that there is still an active market for these
>> things.
> 
> Chuck,
> 
> For the uneducated amongst us exactly what are you referring to? Are you 
> talking about the plastic can where the tape sits in? Or the strap that goes 
> around the plastic cover or something entirely different?


Take a look at the image here:

https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/photo/historic-image-of-an-old-computer-tape-high-res-stock-photography/128587299

See how each reel of tape hangs from a slot in a horizontal bar?  Those
white-and-black strips wrapped around the tapes are what I'm referring
to as being deteriorated.

Here's a photo of a single tape reel with one:

http://ibmcollectable.com/gallery/album124/2400ft_tape

IBM used a somewhat different attachment for their auto-loading drives.
I can't find an online photo of one, but I have several of those.
Rather than using a single flexible strip, they used a multi-part rigid
plastic surround.

--Chuck

Re: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/5/19 4:15 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

> ACK
> 
> I'm getting the mental impression that it's somewhat like a spring form
> pan.  The latch opens and releases tension off of the strip that goes
> around the tape reel.  When it's latched, it cinches against it.  When
> it's unlatched, there's enough play to allow the tape reel to come out.
> 
> Am I remotely close?

You're very close--same idea.  When I get a chance, I'll do some
close-ups on the mechanism.   But same idea--the latch puts the band
under tension.  That works fine, so long as the structural integrity of
the band is maintained.  Failures commonly occur around the "holes"
punched in the vinyl, but I've seem some bands that are neatly split
down the middle.

> I wonder if some of this could be 3D printed.

I don't know--and I don't know if it would be economically feasible.  At
less than $6 for a poly "can" that completely encloses the tape, that's
a tough target.

The nutty thing is that I remember when CDC Sunnyvale went to the vinyl
band "hangers" in their facility rather than the wire "racks" that held
the reel and its acrylic case (tremendous variation there).  I recall
seeing dumpsters full of the acrylic cases.  Maybe somewhere there's a
landfill stuffed full with them...

I wonder how long it will be before no non-senior adult remembers CD
jewel cases.  I recall getting rid of several boxes of Plextor-type CD
caddies only a couple of decades ago.

--Chuck

Re: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/5/19 6:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

> I had to re-thread the UNISERVO that is on display at CHM. I have to try
> to find my pictures that I took.
> 
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/univac/magtape/PX899_Mechanical_Parts_of_UNISERVO_Apr58.pdf
> 
> show it.
> 

My guess on the vintage of these is Uniservo VIII (late 60s).

Re: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

This is what the end of a short 6" Univac leader looks like:

https://i.imgur.com/wPH93Cz.jpg

Apologies for the poor quality, but even with the naked eye, it's hard
to see that the leader end is "looped"  I might be able to enhance this
a bit with some image finagling, if anyone's interested.

The other end is cut in 45 degree traditional splice.


--Chuck

Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 3/27/19 4:06 PM, dwight wrote:
> A friend an I did almost the same thing. We used the transformer primary
> from another box as an auto transformer and used a file to grind the
> motor pulley down. We did have to file the mounting slots some as well.
> It worked fine.
> This was about 25 years ago.
> Dwight

Well, I bought two pulleys, so if anyone has an 842 220V 50Hz unit they
want to try this on, I'm happy to part with one.

--Chuck

Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/6/19 11:09 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals
> It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era
> disk and tape channel controllers are there too
> 
> On 4/6/19 7:04 AM, jos via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw

Interesting--it really does belong in a museum--it's not something a
hobbyist would be able to usey; even if it was practical (or possible)
to get it running again.   The 2020 was "sort of" a System/360, with
halfword registers and a simplified instruction set. (To do any real
arithmetic, you pretty much had to use the packed BCD instructions).

I recognize the 2560 Mother F* Card Mulcher, which brings up some
interesting memories.

--Chuck

1/2" tape storage.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Argh!  I just got a batch of 10.5" open-reel tape in and about one-third
of the batch has vinyl "hanger strips" that heave either self-destructed
in shipment or are about to do so.

Given that the durned things have lapsed into the land of the
unobtainium, I wonder if plastic (probably polypropylene) 16mm film cans
will work.  The 1200' size looks to be about right.

Has anyone tried this?

--Chuck

Re: Kemners Surplus - Real time walkthrough

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 2/18/19 2:31 PM, TeoZ wrote:
> I passed on mint complete word processors at a recyclers ages ago
> because I had no use for them. I almost picked up a huge IBM typewriter
> but changed my mind.
> Everybody has limited space so we try not to fill it with things way
> outside of our normal collecting. If anything I regret not grabbing some
> terminals when I had the chance.
> 
> I guess if you are in the business of reading old word processing
> floppies with proprietary formats then snagging a few machines might be
> worth it.

WuPros are interesting from the standpoint that their reign was
comparatively brief, barely more than a decade.  After the IBM PC
arrived, they were pretty much history--but even before that, the 8-bit
personal systems could meet perhaps 90% of a company's word processing
workload.

By the time that graphic-interface operating systems were available
(e.g. MacOS, Windows), WPs were a quaint throwback.

The very low-end word processors (most notably Brother) hung on for
awhile longer, aimed to the computer-phobic crowd--or those who wanted a
little more than a smart typewriter.  By about 1995, anyone with a
moderately powerful personal system could out-perform an expensive
document preparation package on a high-end workstation.  You too, could
have beautiful typefaces and formatting, complete with grammar and
spelling errors.

I can remember sitting in discussions about "killer apps" (they may have
not been called that), but word processing, spreadsheet and the basic
accounting (AP, AR, GL, Payroll and Inventory) suite were essentially
the way you sold a business computer.

--Chuck