RE: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 08:00 -0700, Carol Anne Ogdin wrote: I actually DO subscribe to this list via gmail. However, I seldom bother doing so through webmail, because I like my information to come to me, rather than spending my time logging on, waiting for pages to refresh, etc. snip My experience with RHEL/CentOS is not as deep, and I'm eager to learn. I'd just like to help bridge the gap that--to my observation--impedes knowledge transfer. Carol Anne: Since you are subscribed to this wonderful mailing list, if you can, take the time to read all of the messages, not just the ones that you think apply to whatever you are interested in at the moment. YOU_WILL_LEARN! The Developers and many other extremely knowledgeable people participate in this list, daily, and you will learn, from their messages to the list. There is a Forum, and a Wiki, and you can learn there too, but this mailing list is, IMHO, your best route to learning and for support. Set your gmail up for IMAP, as Google suggests, and you will have everything in the list searchable, with the Google Search Engine, when you are using gmail on the web and you can search in your MUA, in your Desktop/Workstation, if you are offline. Lanny ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Can we drop this topic, it comes up very month or so, and with more than a 100 emails... -- Thanks http://www.911networks.com When the network has to work ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 20:55 -0400, Matt Shields wrote: snip I think the thing that's annoying about top posting is explained with this example (grabbed from a Boston Linux Unix Group signature). I'll have to admit when I'm not thinking about it, there have been a few times where I've top posted (bad habit from the corporate world), but if people would take 5 minutes to read a complete thread backwards with comments inserted in between other comments, it gets very confusing. Bottom posting or posting in between comments makes sense. A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting annoying in email? How did you get back on topic here? ;-) Regardless, after wading through almost all of these posts and remaining mum (in hopes that the futility of it all would eventually dawn on the various contributors), I've been overwhelmed by an irrational desire to address the underlying fundamentals of the netiquette for mailing lists and forums. Don't worry - I'll be very brief. Snipping: origins were in bandwidth limitations (I was already seasoned when 300 baud was blinding fast) of both the physical infrastructure and users. For many, infrastructure limits are now irrelevant, but for many, still relevant. SNIP PEOPLE! Top posting vs. embedded or bottom posting: the human brain is a very strong associative processor (my bad puns which you all have been spared is proof positive of this). Context strongly assists that process. Physical juxtaposition of related statements enhances context. All this enhances comprehension, formulation of ideas and responses and creativity. It also helps the bandwidth issues of human brains by making scanning faster, more comprehensible and less error prone (witness the number of times folks say I should have read the whole thing first). EMBED YOUR REPLIES FOLKS! Regardless of the above, common courtesy *demands* that one respect the accepted standards of their hosts. This is especially so when they provide great value for no recompense and expend their time and energy in support of *you*, their guest. To do less is to be extremely self-centered, selfish and inconsiderate. You increase their time consumption and effort by doing things, to suit yourself, that increase their burden. The same standards you would use when being a guest at someone's home should apply here or in any similar venue. Going off topic again here. I'm of the same mind as KS. I jumped into the forums for awhile trying to help others out. It was just too time consuming. The constant point and click, manually looking and selecting threads, the fly-by postings all conspired to make me question both the value of what I tried to contribute and the trade off of my time and energy. Contrarily, the mailing lists presents to me, allows fast scan and selection and processing, and I take a lot less time and energy garnering the benefits. This makes me more prone to contribute. I throttle the urge so as to avoid adding chaff. Searching the lists is easy regardless of the age of the topic (ditto for the forums when I'm doing a google). Preferred mailer: who really cares? That's pure personal preference. Opinions only help expose others to options and therefore have some value. But we all know that topic is peripheral to the main topic. 'Nuff said. I'm now going to delete all the rest of the posts related to this thread without reading them. -- Bill ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 10:55 PM, Jason Pyeron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just wish I could configure my outlook ... No excuse now :) http://quotefix.flupp.de/ Regards, Martyn -- Martyn Drake http://www.drake.org.uk http://www.mindthegapps.com ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Akemi Yagi wrote: On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Carol Anne Ogdin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was maintained on any of the quality bulletin board or Forum tools. It would reduce my eMail load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of interest to me at the moment, and I can eMail those posts to myself that are relevant to my own needs for further editing and documentation. I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A forum is more practical as a tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community. This eMail list just doesn't cut it for a knowledge base built up of our collective experience. Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium, a forum can eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who would like to search for a solution from a year or so ago could search the central resource. --Carol Anne I think this post gives us a good message. That is that, just like there are many people who hate the forums, there are many users who prefer the forums over the mailing lists. From what I have been observing by participating in the BOTH worlds for the last year or so, the number of people who are being helped in the forums outgrows that of the mailing lists. And if you do google searches, you tend to find forum posts more than mailing posts. BUT, my intention is not to make a comparison -- they just have different audience. The point I want to make is that if you feel one method is not as well-served as the other, efforts should be made to make the other method equally good. CentOS provides the two major venues, and we should be able to choose whichever the one we feel more comfortable without sacrificing the quality of help we get. The C in CentOS is the driving force of the whole project. We, community members, as a whole always need to think how best we can help others. My 2 cents worth, I just want to point out that there are forums for CentOS, we have several moderators and community members who answer questions there every day and we can akways use more users there answering questions. You can also search and read this list in several places that are available in a threaded format ... like: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.centos.general You can also search the archives using google and the site feature: in a google search box, do: site:http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/ Top Posting Regardless, forums, mailing lists and a wiki are all available for CentOS users ... and each medium is driven by CentOS Users who volunteer to participate for CentOS Users who are looking for help. We offer all 3 because different users prefer different methods. That is what open source is all about ... pick the method you like and use it :D Thanks, Johnny Hughes signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Akemi Yagi wrote: I think this post gives us a good message. That is that, just like there are many people who hate the forums, there are many users who prefer the forums over the mailing lists. That does not mean you go slaging off one communication medium in another. If IRC is the only thing that works for you, that does not mean its OK to go farking off in the lists and forums. On the other hand, if you are here in the lists, its reasonable to expect people to make an effort to make communication easier. Just as any medium of communication would have guidelines and ways to implement them. - KB ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Beyond casutic...who's slaging here karanbir? He expressed his opinion and last time i checked there wasn't a rule against that. While your reply was inflamatory you also have the right to fire back..however saying it's not ok to do something that wasn't against any of the rules of this forum is just being caustic for being caustic's sake. Karanbir Singh wrote: Akemi Yagi wrote: I think this post gives us a good message. That is that, just like there are many people who hate the forums, there are many users who prefer the forums over the mailing lists. That does not mean you go slaging off one communication medium in another. If IRC is the only thing that works for you, that does not mean its OK to go farking off in the lists and forums. On the other hand, if you are here in the lists, its reasonable to expect people to make an effort to make communication easier. Just as any medium of communication would have guidelines and ways to implement them. - KB ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos -- Registered Microsoft Partner My Foundation verse: Isa 54:17 ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
RE: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Thanks, Johnny, for your comments. Can you post some URLs for CentOS forums you mentioned in your reply? I've searched high-and-low with no success. The other thing I'd love is a link to a good RSS (or Atom) feed devoted to RHEL and/or CentOS. Any help would be most appreciated. --Carol Anne -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Johnny Hughes Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 2:42 AM To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting Akemi Yagi wrote: On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Carol Anne Ogdin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was maintained on any of the quality bulletin board or Forum tools. It would reduce my eMail load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of interest to me at the moment, and I can eMail those posts to myself that are relevant to my own needs for further editing and documentation. I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A forum is more practical as a tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community. This eMail list just doesn't cut it for a knowledge base built up of our collective experience. Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium, a forum can eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who would like to search for a solution from a year or so ago could search the central resource. --Carol Anne I think this post gives us a good message. That is that, just like there are many people who hate the forums, there are many users who prefer the forums over the mailing lists. From what I have been observing by participating in the BOTH worlds for the last year or so, the number of people who are being helped in the forums outgrows that of the mailing lists. And if you do google searches, you tend to find forum posts more than mailing posts. BUT, my intention is not to make a comparison -- they just have different audience. The point I want to make is that if you feel one method is not as well-served as the other, efforts should be made to make the other method equally good. CentOS provides the two major venues, and we should be able to choose whichever the one we feel more comfortable without sacrificing the quality of help we get. The C in CentOS is the driving force of the whole project. We, community members, as a whole always need to think how best we can help others. My 2 cents worth, I just want to point out that there are forums for CentOS, we have several moderators and community members who answer questions there every day and we can akways use more users there answering questions. You can also search and read this list in several places that are available in a threaded format ... like: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.centos.general You can also search the archives using google and the site feature: in a google search box, do: site:http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/ Top Posting Regardless, forums, mailing lists and a wiki are all available for CentOS users ... and each medium is driven by CentOS Users who volunteer to participate for CentOS Users who are looking for help. We offer all 3 because different users prefer different methods. That is what open source is all about ... pick the method you like and use it :D Thanks, Johnny Hughes ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 07:54:26AM -0700, Carol Anne Ogdin enlightened us: Thanks, Johnny, for your comments. Can you post some URLs for CentOS forums you mentioned in your reply? I've searched high-and-low with no success. www.centos.org - Support - Forums takes you to http://centos.org/modules/newbb/ The other thing I'd love is a link to a good RSS (or Atom) feed devoted to RHEL and/or CentOS. Any help would be most appreciated. http://planet.centos.org/ Matt -- Matt Hyclak Department of Mathematics Department of Social Work Ohio University (740) 593-1263 ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
RE: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
I actually DO subscribe to this list via gmail. However, I seldom bother doing so through webmail, because I like my information to come to me, rather than spending my time logging on, waiting for pages to refresh, etc. I have long experience in group communication and on-line knowledge accumulation (see, for example, http://www.deepwoods.com/transform/pubs/Community.htm). My focus has always been on the ease and efficiency with which individuals share knowledge with their peers (the rising tide lifts all boats). My experience with RHEL/CentOS is not as deep, and I'm eager to learn. I'd just like to help bridge the gap that--to my observation--impedes knowledge transfer. --Carol Anne -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bart Schaefer Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:31 PM To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Carol Anne Ogdin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A forum is more practical as a tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community. This eMail list just doesn't cut it for a knowledge base built up of our collective experience. Get yourself a gmail account and subscribe this list to it. The threaded presentation goes a long way, and a few additional minutes with the label setup tool can practically create your own personal forum layout, and if there are only a few things to catch up on you can quickly scan them under All Mail rather than having to check each of the different categories separately. I read nearly all my email lists in gmail now ... but, increasingly, email user agents like Thunderbird have similar features if you don't like a web interface (which given your attraction to forums is probably not an issue). ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Carol Anne Ogdin wrote: Can you post some URLs for CentOS forums you mentioned in your reply? I've searched high-and-low with no success. Eh? www.centos.org - support - forums Or wiki.centos.org - Help Or google - [centos forums] [x] I feel lucky The other thing I'd love is a link to a good RSS (or Atom) feed devoted to RHEL and/or CentOS. planet.centos.org And please edit your mails. Cheers, Ralph pgpjlTbvAJRqw.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 7:59 AM, Matt Hyclak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 07:54:26AM -0700, Carol Anne Ogdin enlightened us: Thanks, Johnny, for your comments. Can you post some URLs for CentOS forums you mentioned in your reply? I've searched high-and-low with no success. www.centos.org - Support - Forums takes you to http://centos.org/modules/newbb/ The other thing I'd love is a link to a good RSS (or Atom) feed devoted to RHEL and/or CentOS. Any help would be most appreciated. http://planet.centos.org/ http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos Carol, Just for your information. The CentOS forum has an RSS too. Scroll to the bottom of the forum page Matt referred to. Akemi ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
RE: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Les Mikesell questioned, ...who would go there to post any answers? The answer is the same people who share here...and probably many more who find this sparse medium harder to navigate. There's a thriving community I helped create and nurture, which I've described at http://www.deepwoods.com/transform/pubs/Community.htm When there's value provided, many people will rise to the challenge of adding even more value. And, yes, I know there's an archive of posts to this forum, but the question is one of focus: Do you hold more value for a lively (virtual) meeting with lots of participants, or a quiet library where information is archived? This medium feels to me more like the latter. --Carol Anne -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Les Mikesell Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 8:12 PM To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting Carol Anne Ogdin wrote: Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was maintained on any of the quality bulletin board or Forum tools. It would reduce my eMail load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of interest to me at the moment, and I can eMail those posts to myself that are relevant to my own needs for further editing and documentation. If people only looked for questions when they were interested in an answer, there wouldn't be any answers. I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A forum is more practical as a tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community. But who would go there to post any answers? Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium, a forum can eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who would like to search for a solution from a year or so ago could search the central resource. Huh? http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos This is on the bottom of every message. Click it sometime and follow the link there that says 'CentOS Archives'. But Google is the place to search since it has the list contents and a lot of other resources. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
RE: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Dear Mr. Singh: I understand you prefer this medium. I have practical experience with alternatives that have offered measurable and definite benefits to the communities they serve. Your opinions are louder than your putative experience. Unfortunately, in 51 years in the computer industry, I've sometimes had to cope with behaviors like yours. It still makes me sad to experience such unhappy people who think that attack is the best way to enrich a collaboration. --Carol Anne -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Karanbir Singh Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 6:07 PM To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting Carol Anne Ogdin wrote: Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was maintained on any of the quality bulletin board or Forum tools. It would reduce my eMail load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of interest to me at the moment, and I can eMail those posts to myself that are relevant to my own needs for further editing and documentation. I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A forum is more practical as a tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community. This eMail list just doesn't cut it for a knowledge base built up of our collective experience. Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium, a forum can eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who would like to search for a solution from a year or so ago could search the central resource. Excuse me for being caustic, but you sound delusional. I'd guess you have heard of this thing called 'search' ? it works best on text, that is context specific and goes with you in the list archive. Besides, Forums are a total and complete waste of time for me. I cant be asked to go clicking around all over the place looking for posts here and there in various websites and pages while on the other hand I can aggregate the list feeds that interest me into a common resource that is available to me on th move or whenever I might need. And I know that this is the state of play with a large number of people who dont have the time going out looking for things, but prefer letting info / content come to them. Most forums are populated by drive-by posters, since they have a lower barrier to entry and an ever lower barrier to exit. While is quite the opposite to the lists. The info comes to you once you are subscribed, and an easy search digs up relevant content when you need it. One of the reasons I have such high regard for the few people who stick it out in the CentOS Forums working and helping the people who come posting there is because I know just how much work it is and just how much time is taken up by it. I, for one, cant put in that effort. Anyway, if you dont like the lists, you can unsubscribe from them ( subscription info is included in the headers of each email sent form the list), and move to the forums on www.centos.org. Why are you even here wasting your time ? I'd give you 40 technical reasons why forums are not nearly as productive as lists, but I cant be asked really. -- Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/ : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 08:00:59AM -0700, Carol Anne Ogdin wrote: I actually DO subscribe to this list via gmail. However, I seldom bother ... Hi Carol (and all the other top posters), if you keep top posting, please could you at least DELETE the mail you are replying to? Tru snip!!! un-needed quoting -- Tru Huynh (mirrors, CentOS-3 i386/x86_64 Package Maintenance) http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xBEFA581B pgpsy0SwXKLhx.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On May 16, 2008, at 10:54 AM, Carol Anne Ogdin wrote: Can you post some URLs for CentOS forums you mentioned in your reply? I've searched high-and-low with no success. http://www.centos.org in the navbar, look for Support-Forums. or pick the *very first hit* from a Google: http://www.google.com/search?q=centos+forums or look at the GettingHelp page on the CentOS wiki: http://wiki.centos.org/GettingHelp please search slightly higher and lower :) -steve -- If this were played upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction. - Fabian, Twelfth Night, III,v ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On May 16, 2008, at 11:14 AM, Carol Anne Ogdin wrote: Your opinions are louder than your putative experience. Unfortunately, in 51 years in the computer industry, I've sometimes had to cope with behaviors like yours. It still makes me sad to experience such unhappy people who think that attack is the best way to enrich a collaboration. hmm. perhaps we should put some of that 51 years of experience to use in evaluating this particular situation? while i can't see inside your head, i can refer to the policies you yourself have published (http://www.deepwoods.com/transform/pubs/DDB.htm). The core participants can be identified by seeing how many other people (core or not) refer to them by name. The named people are the core group. Make sure you remain sensitive to their concerns, for they implicitly speak for the entire population of participants. by any definition, Karanbir is one of the core participants of this forum and of the CentOS project. have you lurked here a while? if so, i'm surprised you don't know this. on the CentOS website, please check Information-The CentOS Team-Members and see if some of those names look familiar. please treat him with the respect he is due. If the boundaries are not clearly established, differing expectations will ensure that somebody feels the boundaries have been crossed. That's why it's important to have some published guidelines for behavior. the CentOS project does, in fact, have such published guidelines for mailing lists, available here: http://www.centos.org/modules/tinycontent/index.php?id=16 (that's Support-Mailing Lists off the main page). issues concerning posting and quoting are covered there, quite unambiguously. please respect the published guidelines of this forum, *as you yourself recommend*. Of course, the newcomer might immediately and inadvertently violate some local cultural norms, sort of like walking through the flower bed on the way to the front door. In this case, it's usually best to take the process of new party education off-line, into e-mail. Chastising people in public for not reading the published guidelines, or for doing something they shouldn't almost guarantees they'll never participate again. ok, make up your mind; which do you want to be? are you a tentative participant who doesn't know how to behave and needs to be acculturated to this forum's norms, or are you a seasoned professional with 117,000 messages worth of experience in community- building? if you're the first, please stop telling everyone else how to behave; if you're the second, please stop making newbie mistakes, since you should know better. thank you. -steve -- If this were played upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction. - Fabian, Twelfth Night, III,v ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Carol Anne Ogdin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Les Mikesell questioned, ...who would go there to post any answers? The answer is the same people who share here...and probably many more who find this sparse medium harder to navigate. I, for one, would be unlikely to go there to post answers. (Not that I'm a font of answers here, but see for example the zsh mailing lists). All forum software that I've used (which clearly doesn't include all forum software that exists) amplifies two of the most significant problems with asynchronous group communications: (1) failing to start a new thread when one should be started, and (2) starting a new thread when one should not. This happens on mailing lists too, of course, but at least with email I'm entirely in control of how I organize it, so I can re-group messages at will. Using forum software I'm forced to accept whatever (dis)organization the moderators or originator of the message chose. (If someone knows of forum software that doesn't have this problem -- that gives every user control over how his view of the postings is organized -- I'd be thrilled to hear about it. But if you want to tell me on-list, start a new thread. :-) ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
And, yes, I know there's an archive of posts to this forum, but the question is one of focus: Do you hold more value for a lively (virtual) meeting with lots of participants, or a quiet library where information is archived? This medium feels to me more like the latter. --Carol Anne It's a pretty rowdy library, as the archives might indicate. If I might engage in generalism, it gets much more lively when we're not really talking about CentOS. I'd guess that a large set of the folks subscribed to this list aren't here to be social, and aren't really interested in being excruciatingly social in a, Hi, I just dropped by the list to say 'Hi!' sort of way. I don't see this as a meeting with many virtual participants. I don't really think many here do, nor would I expect that the majority would even see meetings as anything more than time wasting when they could be getting something technical done. I'm not sure what the CentOS Leadership envision, but I'm pretty sure that the uber-for-the-users-ubuntu-facade isn't really what they're aiming for. The general tone as I perceive it is more of a If you're here, you should already mostly know what you're doing. We were all newbs once, and we'll answer beginner questions grudgingly, but if you didn't bother to do your homework, we don't have much use for you. And that might not be such a bad place to be. If you haven't used Google before you ask on the list, you're missing a good bet. Since the mailing list archives and forums are both searchable via Google, and probably permanent fixtures on the internet (as permanent as anything is on the internet), Google to me acts as the central repository of all the accumulated knowledge on this particular topic. My guess is that most folks do something similar. I recommend it as a course of action. Emailing the list with the expectation that someone else is going to do your thinking for you will likely be met with an extra dose of caustic and grump, for that is, at best, begging, and, at worst, outright theft. Sincerely, Jacob Leaver Sr. System Administrator ReachONE Internet ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 02:06 +0100, Karanbir Singh wrote: Carol Anne Ogdin wrote: Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was maintained on any of the quality bulletin board or Forum tools. It would reduce my eMail load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of interest to me at the moment, and I can eMail those posts to myself that are relevant to my own needs for further editing and documentation. I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A forum is more practical as a tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community. This eMail list just doesn't cut it for a knowledge base built up of our collective experience. Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium, a forum can eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who would like to search for a solution from a year or so ago could search the central resource. Excuse me for being caustic, but you sound delusional. I'd guess you have heard of this thing called 'search' ? it works best on text, that is context specific and goes with you in the list archive. Besides, Forums are a total and complete waste of time for me. I cant be asked to go clicking around all over the place looking for posts here and there in various websites and pages while on the other hand I can aggregate the list feeds that interest me into a common resource that is available to me on th move or whenever I might need. And I know that this is the state of play with a large number of people who dont have the time going out looking for things, but prefer letting info / content come to them. Most forums are populated by drive-by posters, since they have a lower barrier to entry and an ever lower barrier to exit. While is quite the opposite to the lists. The info comes to you once you are subscribed, and an easy search digs up relevant content when you need it. One of the reasons I have such high regard for the few people who stick it out in the CentOS Forums working and helping the people who come posting there is because I know just how much work it is and just how much time is taken up by it. I, for one, cant put in that effort. Anyway, if you dont like the lists, you can unsubscribe from them ( subscription info is included in the headers of each email sent form the list), and move to the forums on www.centos.org. Why are you even here wasting your time ? I'd give you 40 technical reasons why forums are not nearly as productive as lists, but I cant be asked really. Common thread to all of this, is that we are all individuals with different work flows that work better for us. What puzzles me, is why people are so religiously fanatical and disrespectful of the views of others, preferring to chastise and even go as far as you have here, to call her view and choice to be here, regardless of her preference, as a waste of her time. We should all remember, that the very policies that we have, came from the free flow exchange of ideas and beliefs, in a respectful manner, that they are not written in stone, and absolutely should be challenged continually, as the tools, technologies, and environment changes, which is constant. It is these free flow exchange of beliefs and ideas, that will pave the way for us to the future. You don't have to agree with someone else, you are allowed to do and use what works best for you, and to share with everyone your own beliefs about such, but you do have to respect each others right to their belief, and agree to disagree. I think both of you are right on your technology preference here, because you know what works for you most efficiently. There is no place for this belittlement and chastising, and name calling for that matter (which happened to me on this subject), amongst professionals. That is all very childish IMHO. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Carol Anne Ogdin wrote: Les Mikesell questioned, ...who would go there to post any answers? The answer is the same people who share here...and probably many more who find this sparse medium harder to navigate. There's a thriving community I helped create and nurture, which I've described at http://www.deepwoods.com/transform/pubs/Community.htm I don't really want a community in my mail box. I want answers to technical problems and if I happen to have an answer someone else needs, I'll post it. When there's value provided, many people will rise to the challenge of adding even more value. And, yes, I know there's an archive of posts to this forum, but the question is one of focus: Do you hold more value for a lively (virtual) meeting with lots of participants, or a quiet library where information is archived? This medium feels to me more like the latter. When everything works right, there should be no traffic on this list at all. No news is good news in the technical problems department. If you are looking for instructions on something that works and is documented, this is the wrong place to start. If following the documentation didn't work, you are doing something new, or you are surprised by your results, then bring it on and you are likely to find someone who just solved the same problem. Or if you are just confused you'll probably get a friendly pointer to the right starting point, but that's not what I think of as a community and it's mostly not discussion for discussion's sake. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Carol Anne Ogdin wrote: And, yes, I know there's an archive of posts to this forum, but the question is one of focus: Do you hold more value for a lively (virtual) meeting with lots of participants, or a quiet library where information is archived? This medium feels to me more like the latter. with ~ 60-70 messages since midnight last night?!? 100+ email messages/day is a fairly busy email list by any standards. but, yes, I'd rather go to the library and read a well written book than hang out at a party where 300 people are all small-talking at once. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 10:01 AM, John R Pierce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: with ~ 60-70 messages since midnight last night?!? 100+ email messages/day is a fairly busy email list by any standards. but, yes, I'd rather go to the library and read a well written book than hang out at a party where 300 people are all small-talking at once. (w.r.t. this whole thread, including my own contributions) Well, there goes my social life. mhr :-) ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
RE: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Thanks, Steve. I dunno how I missed that source. --Carol Anne -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Huff Sent: Friday, May 16, 2008 8:19 AM To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting On May 16, 2008, at 10:54 AM, Carol Anne Ogdin wrote: Can you post some URLs for CentOS forums you mentioned in your reply? I've searched high-and-low with no success. http://www.centos.org in the navbar, look for Support-Forums. or pick the *very first hit* from a Google: http://www.google.com/search?q=centos+forums or look at the GettingHelp page on the CentOS wiki: http://wiki.centos.org/GettingHelp please search slightly higher and lower :) -steve -- If this were played upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction. - Fabian, Twelfth Night, III,v ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Jason Pyeron wrote: I just wish I could configure my outlook ... Configure it? Don't you know how to move the cursor? The point is that you are supposed to delete the irrelevant context as you move down, replying underneath the parts you leave so it lands it the right place conversation-wise. I know that, but it was a lot easier in pine. I'm not sure I've ever seen the words 'easy' and 'pine' used in the same sentence before. Pine has to have the most counterintuitive interface known to man. I usually hold the shift key down while using the down-arrow to move over the parts to remove which will select/highlight it, hit delete at the end of the irrelevant part, arrow on down past the relevant context to add my response below it, repeating if there is more than one section continuing in the conversation. Seems natural to me, works in just about every GUI-type mailer and the cursor moves down as fast as I can read so it doesn't slow anything down. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Fri, 16 May 2008, R P Herrold wrote: There's the problem, Les !! -- the pine (now, alpine) editor, pico, does not work that way. Fortunately, [al]pine will honor an EDITOR environment variable for those preferring a different editor, so one can go nuts, and even, say, use emacs. I love alpine. It works with UTF-8 so you can read spam in the original Hebrew or Chinese, but it's text-only so you avoid NSFW images. You get foreign language practice in an HR-acceptable manner. Woohoo! -- Paul Heinlein [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.madboa.com/ ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
William Warren wrote: Beyond casutic...who's slaging here karanbir? He expressed his opinion and last time i checked there wasn't a rule against that. While your reply was inflamatory you also have the right to fire back..however saying it's not ok to do something that wasn't against any of the rules of this forum is just being caustic for being caustic's sake. Karanbir Singh wrote: That does not mean you go slaging off one communication medium in another. If IRC is the only thing that works for you, that does not mean its OK to go farking off in the lists and forums. I think you need to read the posts again, I am not being caustic for the sake of being caustic at all. My point is simply that if the lists dont work for you, leave. But if you intend to hang around you are expected to make an effort at being in sync with what the other longer term users on these lists expect. eg. trimming posts and not top posting is a good start. Two very basic things, trivial to handle and execute, yet so many users dont bother to do. -- Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/ : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Doug Tucker wrote: I'd give you 40 technical reasons why forums are not nearly as productive as lists, but I cant be asked really. Common thread to all of this, is that we are all individuals with different work flows that work better for us. What puzzles me, is why people are so religiously fanatical and disrespectful of the views of others, preferring to chastise and even go as far as you have here, to call her view and choice to be here, regardless of her preference, as a waste of her time. Doug, if you reread my post you will notice that I am not fanatical about any single form of communication and quite openly acknowledged the work done by other people in other communication venues. All you are doig is re-iterating my point : different people have different needs and uses. Some are here on the list since thats what works for them and the lists come with some guidelines. We ( the CentOS Project ) expect users in these lists to make an effort to adhere to these rules and guidelines. I see nothing unreasable in that whatsoever. Anyway, as has already been said quite a few times - if the lists dont work for you, leave. Subscription info is included in each email sent from the list. -- Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/ : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Hi, Carol Anne Ogdin wrote: Dear Mr. Singh: I understand you prefer this medium. I have practical experience with alternatives that have offered measurable and definite benefits to the communities they serve. Which is quite fair, and the point I was making as well. However, the poit I was also making ( and have now repeated about 4 times ) is- this is the lists not the forums. We have some guidelines and the moderaters will make an effort to implement them. Your opinions are louder than your putative experience. Unfortunately, in 51 years in the computer industry, I've sometimes had to cope with behaviors like yours. It still makes me sad to experience such unhappy people who think that attack is the best way to enrich a collaboration. ok, so you are 51 years old. Which was good to know. I'll respect you for your age. Apart from that you've made no real contribution to the conversation here. -- Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/ : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Karanbir Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Carol Anne Ogdin wrote: Dear Mr. Singh: I understand you prefer this medium. I have practical experience with alternatives that have offered measurable and definite benefits to the communities they serve. Which is quite fair, and the point I was making as well. However, the poit I was also making ( and have now repeated about 4 times ) is- this is the lists not the forums. We have some guidelines and the moderaters will make an effort to implement them. Your opinions are louder than your putative experience. Unfortunately, in 51 years in the computer industry, I've sometimes had to cope with behaviors like yours. It still makes me sad to experience such unhappy people who think that attack is the best way to enrich a collaboration. ok, so you are 51 years old. Which was good to know. I'll respect you for your age. Apart from that you've made no real contribution to the conversation here. I think the thing that's annoying about top posting is explained with this example (grabbed from a Boston Linux Unix Group signature). I'll have to admit when I'm not thinking about it, there have been a few times where I've top posted (bad habit from the corporate world), but if people would take 5 minutes to read a complete thread backwards with comments inserted in between other comments, it gets very confusing. Bottom posting or posting in between comments makes sense. A: Yes. Q: Are you sure? A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. Q: Why is top posting annoying in email? -- -matt ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 16:48 -0500, Doug Tucker wrote: On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:56 -0500, Scott Nelson wrote: On May 14, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Doug Tucker wrote: ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last month...user base is over 4000... I *think* Scott wrote: Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one). Same concepts. I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists, let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom post. Doug, you *still* are missing the point! The *rules* written in the days of Usenet are *still* applicable today. Why? Because the reason for their existence hasn't changed. Originally there was Usenet *groups* now there are email lists. What's the difference? The names. Bob -- Bob Taylor ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Bob Taylor wrote: On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 16:48 -0500, Doug Tucker wrote: On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:56 -0500, Scott Nelson wrote: On May 14, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Doug Tucker wrote: ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last month...user base is over 4000... I *think* Scott wrote: Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one). Same concepts. I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists, let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom post. Doug, you *still* are missing the point! The *rules* written in the days of Usenet are *still* applicable today. Why? Because the reason for their existence hasn't changed. Originally there was Usenet *groups* now there are email lists. What's the difference? The names. Bob I second Bob on that! I do a lot of support and top posting is a *PITA*. It's like reading a book from bottom to top, right to left! It's doable but nor very confortable IMHO. I'm not saying i have absolute truth, just sharing the view of somebody that do tech support since 15 years. Guy Boisvert, ing. IngTegration inc. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
RE: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was maintained on any of the quality bulletin board or Forum tools. It would reduce my eMail load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of interest to me at the moment, and I can eMail those posts to myself that are relevant to my own needs for further editing and documentation. I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A forum is more practical as a tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community. This eMail list just doesn't cut it for a knowledge base built up of our collective experience. Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium, a forum can eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who would like to search for a solution from a year or so ago could search the central resource. --Carol Anne -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Guy Boisvert Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 5:03 PM To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting Bob Taylor wrote: On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 16:48 -0500, Doug Tucker wrote: On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:56 -0500, Scott Nelson wrote: On May 14, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Doug Tucker wrote: ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last month...user base is over 4000... I *think* Scott wrote: Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one). Same concepts. I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists, let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom post. Doug, you *still* are missing the point! The *rules* written in the days of Usenet are *still* applicable today. Why? Because the reason for their existence hasn't changed. Originally there was Usenet *groups* now there are email lists. What's the difference? The names. Bob I second Bob on that! I do a lot of support and top posting is a *PITA*. It's like reading a book from bottom to top, right to left! It's doable but nor very confortable IMHO. I'm not saying i have absolute truth, just sharing the view of somebody that do tech support since 15 years. Guy Boisvert, ing. IngTegration inc. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Carol Anne Ogdin wrote: Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was maintained on any of the quality bulletin board or Forum tools. It would reduce my eMail load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of interest to me at the moment, and I can eMail those posts to myself that are relevant to my own needs for further editing and documentation. I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A forum is more practical as a tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community. This eMail list just doesn't cut it for a knowledge base built up of our collective experience. Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium, a forum can eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who would like to search for a solution from a year or so ago could search the central resource. Excuse me for being caustic, but you sound delusional. I'd guess you have heard of this thing called 'search' ? it works best on text, that is context specific and goes with you in the list archive. Besides, Forums are a total and complete waste of time for me. I cant be asked to go clicking around all over the place looking for posts here and there in various websites and pages while on the other hand I can aggregate the list feeds that interest me into a common resource that is available to me on th move or whenever I might need. And I know that this is the state of play with a large number of people who dont have the time going out looking for things, but prefer letting info / content come to them. Most forums are populated by drive-by posters, since they have a lower barrier to entry and an ever lower barrier to exit. While is quite the opposite to the lists. The info comes to you once you are subscribed, and an easy search digs up relevant content when you need it. One of the reasons I have such high regard for the few people who stick it out in the CentOS Forums working and helping the people who come posting there is because I know just how much work it is and just how much time is taken up by it. I, for one, cant put in that effort. Anyway, if you dont like the lists, you can unsubscribe from them ( subscription info is included in the headers of each email sent form the list), and move to the forums on www.centos.org. Why are you even here wasting your time ? I'd give you 40 technical reasons why forums are not nearly as productive as lists, but I cant be asked really. -- Karanbir Singh : http://www.karan.org/ : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 11:04:08AM -0700, MHR wrote: This is way OT, which we know (the Subject: line...) - can we dismiss it as beaten to death one more time and go on? :-) You must be new to the Internet. There's no such thing as too much beating for any horse, dead or not. :) -- /\oo/\ / /()\ \ David Mackintosh | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.xdroop.com pgp8b56YqbSPB.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Carol Anne Ogdin wrote: Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was maintained on any of the quality bulletin board or Forum tools. It would reduce my eMail load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of interest to me at the moment, and I can eMail those posts to myself that are relevant to my own needs for further editing and documentation. If people only looked for questions when they were interested in an answer, there wouldn't be any answers. I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A forum is more practical as a tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community. But who would go there to post any answers? Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium, a forum can eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who would like to search for a solution from a year or so ago could search the central resource. Huh? http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos This is on the bottom of every message. Click it sometime and follow the link there that says 'CentOS Archives'. But Google is the place to search since it has the list contents and a lot of other resources. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Carol Anne Ogdin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A forum is more practical as a tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community. This eMail list just doesn't cut it for a knowledge base built up of our collective experience. Get yourself a gmail account and subscribe this list to it. The threaded presentation goes a long way, and a few additional minutes with the label setup tool can practically create your own personal forum layout, and if there are only a few things to catch up on you can quickly scan them under All Mail rather than having to check each of the different categories separately. I read nearly all my email lists in gmail now ... but, increasingly, email user agents like Thunderbird have similar features if you don't like a web interface (which given your attraction to forums is probably not an issue). ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 8:09 PM, David Mackintosh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 11:04:08AM -0700, MHR wrote: This is way OT, which we know (the Subject: line...) - can we dismiss it as beaten to death one more time and go on? :-) You must be new to the Internet. There's no such thing as too much beating for any horse, dead or not. :) Possibly - I've only been on it since 1984 or so. :-) But you know, every once in a while sanity strikes (this list!) and people move on. It can happen. (Angels in the Outfield) mhr ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Carol Anne Ogdin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jumping in late here: I sincerely wish that this list was maintained on any of the quality bulletin board or Forum tools. It would reduce my eMail load, allow me to zoom in on just the issues of interest to me at the moment, and I can eMail those posts to myself that are relevant to my own needs for further editing and documentation. I find the entire USENET and eMail list thing utterly antediluvian, and wicked hard to use. Often, I can only barely remember that *maybe* something relevant was discussed months ago, but is now relevant to my current issue today. A forum is more practical as a tool for building a collective knowledge of the CentOS community. This eMail list just doesn't cut it for a knowledge base built up of our collective experience. Of course, for those of you who still prefer this medium, a forum can eMail you posts, just like you see them today. But people who would like to search for a solution from a year or so ago could search the central resource. --Carol Anne I think this post gives us a good message. That is that, just like there are many people who hate the forums, there are many users who prefer the forums over the mailing lists. From what I have been observing by participating in the BOTH worlds for the last year or so, the number of people who are being helped in the forums outgrows that of the mailing lists. And if you do google searches, you tend to find forum posts more than mailing posts. BUT, my intention is not to make a comparison -- they just have different audience. The point I want to make is that if you feel one method is not as well-served as the other, efforts should be made to make the other method equally good. CentOS provides the two major venues, and we should be able to choose whichever the one we feel more comfortable without sacrificing the quality of help we get. The C in CentOS is the driving force of the whole project. We, community members, as a whole always need to think how best we can help others. My 2 cents worth, Akemi ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On May 14, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Doug Tucker wrote: ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last month...user base is over 4000... Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one). Same concepts. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:56 -0500, Scott Nelson wrote: On May 14, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Doug Tucker wrote: ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last month...user base is over 4000... Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one). Same concepts. I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists, let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom post. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Doug Tucker wrote: I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists, let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom post. Not on this or most any other technical list, with the probable exception of Microsoft Outlook users who seem to think they are the center of the universe and that everyone else should bow to their non-standards-compliant client's quirks. have you ever seen an email list digest? digests and archives filled with fully quoted top posted mail are completely unreadable.most of the lists I manage personally, over half the subscribers use the 'digest' (and the vast majority of these rarely if ever post). here's another good discussion on this. http://mailformat.dan.info/quoting/top-posting.html A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right. Q: Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: The lost context. Q: What makes top-posted replies harder to read than bottom-posted? A: Yes. Q: Should I trim down the quoted part of an email to which I'm replying? ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
Jason Pyeron wrote: ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last month...user base is over 4000... Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one). Same concepts. I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists, let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom post. There is business email where you reply immediately and expect the recipient to remember the context he sent so top-posting works and internet email where you reply when you get around to it and most of the readers aren't going to remember any context so top-posting doesn't work. I just wish I could configure my outlook ... Configure it? Don't you know how to move the cursor? The point is that you are supposed to delete the irrelevant context as you move down, replying underneath the parts you leave so it lands it the right place conversation-wise. -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
RE: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - - - Jason Pyeron PD Inc. http://www.pdinc.us - - Principal Consultant 10 West 24th Street #100- - +1 (443) 269-1555 x333Baltimore, Maryland 21218 - - - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, purge the message from your system and notify the sender immediately. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Les Mikesell Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 6:59 PM To: CentOS mailing list Subject: Re: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting Jason Pyeron wrote: ...all but dead...I run a usenet server here, had 3 logins last month...user base is over 4000... Usenet is almost dead but e-mail lists abound (you are using one). Same concepts. I know, but my point was, since we all use email to read email lists, let's get off the old usenet etiquette, and use email etiquette, which you will find yourself in the very minute minority that replies bottom post. There is business email where you reply immediately and expect the recipient to remember the context he sent so top-posting works and internet email where you reply when you get around to it and most of the readers aren't going to remember any context so top-posting doesn't work. I just wish I could configure my outlook ... Configure it? Don't you know how to move the cursor? The point is that you are supposed to delete the irrelevant context as you move down, replying underneath the parts you leave so it lands it the right place conversation-wise. Point, and click. Okay got it. Hmm, what am I forgetting to do before sending? -- Les Mikesell [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
RE: [CentOS] OT: Top Posting
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Les Mikesell Jason Pyeron wrote: I just wish I could configure my outlook ... Configure it? Don't you know how to move the cursor? The point is that you are supposed to delete the irrelevant context as you move down, replying underneath the parts you leave so it lands it the right place conversation-wise. I know that, but it was a lot easier in pine. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- - - - Jason Pyeron PD Inc. http://www.pdinc.us - - Principal Consultant 10 West 24th Street #100- - +1 (443) 269-1555 x333Baltimore, Maryland 21218 - - - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, purge the message from your system and notify the sender immediately. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
