[Cerowrt-devel] 10gige and 2.5gige
has really got cheap. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually using 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achieved rate by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit. https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=179145#p897836 -- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC ___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
Re: [Cerowrt-devel] 10gige and 2.5gige
Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper. Since its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has a 10 GigE fiber backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lots of 10 GigE NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a Thunderbolt 3 external adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull Canyon NUC. I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because twisted pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 Gig - mostly due to power and heat. BTW, it's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, too, and USB-C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rates. Those adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently different about the electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate logic than the ethernet MAC. So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is mainly market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a datacenter product, you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 in computers and switches. Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Internet Access Providers start offering "Cable Modems" that support customers who want more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOCSIS 3 CMTS's etc. out there, it's just a configuration change. So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig? On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" said: > has really got cheap. > > https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter > > On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually using > 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achieved rate > by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit. > > https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=179145#p897836 > > > -- > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > ___ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > ___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
Re: [Cerowrt-devel] 10gige and 2.5gige
Heat issues you mention with UTP are gone; with the 803.bz stuff (i.e Base-N). It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old and out of line with the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power consumption than SFP+ cages were rated to draw and aforementioned heat problems; this is not a problem with newer kit. It went away with the move to smaller silicon processes and now UTP based 10G in the home devices are more common and don't suffer from the fragility issues of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC chipsets were the first to introduce it but most other vendors have finally picked it up after 5 years or feet dragging. On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David P. Reed wrote: > Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper. > > > > Since its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has a 10 > GigE fiber backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lots of 10 > GigE NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a Thunderbolt 3 > external adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull Canyon NUC. > > > > I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because twisted > pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 Gig - mostly > due to power and heat. > > > > BTW, it's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, too, and > USB-C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rates. Those > adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently different about the > electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate logic than the > ethernet MAC. > > > > So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is mainly > market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a datacenter > product, you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 in computers > and switches. > > > > Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Internet Access > Providers start offering "Cable Modems" that support customers who want > more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOCSIS 3 CMTS's etc. out > there, it's just a configuration change. > > > > So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig? > > > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" > said: > > > has really got cheap. > > > > https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter > > > > On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually using > > 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achieved rate > > by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit. > > > > https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=179145#p897836 > > > > > > -- > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > > > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > ___ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > > ___ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > ___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
Re: [Cerowrt-devel] 10gige and 2.5gige
Thanks, That's good to know...The whole SFP+ adapter concept has seemed to me to be a "tweener" in hardware design space. Too many failure points. That said, I like fiber's properties as a medium for distances. On Thursday, December 16, 2021 2:31pm, "Joel Wirāmu Pauling" said: Heat issues you mention with UTP are gone; with the [ 803.bz ]( http://803.bz ) stuff (i.e Base-N). It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old and out of line with the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power consumption than SFP+ cages were rated to draw and aforementioned heat problems; this is not a problem with newer kit. It went away with the move to smaller silicon processes and now UTP based 10G in the home devices are more common and don't suffer from the fragility issues of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC chipsets were the first to introduce it but most other vendors have finally picked it up after 5 years or feet dragging. On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David P. Reed <[ dpr...@deepplum.com ]( mailto:dpr...@deepplum.com )> wrote: Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper. Since its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has a 10 GigE fiber backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lots of 10 GigE NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a Thunderbolt 3 external adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull Canyon NUC. I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because twisted pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 Gig - mostly due to power and heat. BTW, it's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, too, and USB-C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rates. Those adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently different about the electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate logic than the ethernet MAC. So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is mainly market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a datacenter product, you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 in computers and switches. Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Internet Access Providers start offering "Cable Modems" that support customers who want more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOCSIS 3 CMTS's etc. out there, it's just a configuration change. So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig? On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" <[ dave.t...@gmail.com ]( mailto:dave.t...@gmail.com )> said: > has really got cheap. > > [ https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ]( > https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ) > > On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually using > 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achieved rate > by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit. > > [ https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=179145#p897836 ]( > https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=179145#p897836 ) > > > -- > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > [ https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ]( > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ) > > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > ___ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( > mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) > [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ) >___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel )___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
Re: [Cerowrt-devel] 10gige and 2.5gige
another valuable featur of fiber for home use is that fiber can't contribute to ground loops the way that copper cables can. and for the paranoid (like me :-) ) fiber also means that any electrical disaster that happens to one end won't propgate through and fry other equipment David Lang On Thu, 16 Dec 2021, David P. Reed wrote: Thanks, That's good to know...The whole SFP+ adapter concept has seemed to me to be a "tweener" in hardware design space. Too many failure points. That said, I like fiber's properties as a medium for distances. On Thursday, December 16, 2021 2:31pm, "Joel Wirāmu Pauling" said: Heat issues you mention with UTP are gone; with the [ 803.bz ]( http://803.bz ) stuff (i.e Base-N). It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old and out of line with the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power consumption than SFP+ cages were rated to draw and aforementioned heat problems; this is not a problem with newer kit. It went away with the move to smaller silicon processes and now UTP based 10G in the home devices are more common and don't suffer from the fragility issues of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC chipsets were the first to introduce it but most other vendors have finally picked it up after 5 years or feet dragging. On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David P. Reed <[ dpr...@deepplum.com ]( mailto:dpr...@deepplum.com )> wrote: Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper. Since its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has a 10 GigE fiber backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lots of 10 GigE NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a Thunderbolt 3 external adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull Canyon NUC. I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because twisted pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 Gig - mostly due to power and heat. BTW, it's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, too, and USB-C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rates. Those adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently different about the electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate logic than the ethernet MAC. So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is mainly market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a datacenter product, you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 in computers and switches. Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Internet Access Providers start offering "Cable Modems" that support customers who want more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOCSIS 3 CMTS's etc. out there, it's just a configuration change. So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig? On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" <[ dave.t...@gmail.com ]( mailto:dave.t...@gmail.com )> said: has really got cheap. [ https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ]( https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ) On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually using 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achieved rate by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit. [ https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=179145#p897836 ]( https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=179145#p897836 ) -- I tried to build a better future, a few times: [ https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ]( https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ) Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC ___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ) ___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( mailto:Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel )___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
Re: [Cerowrt-devel] 10gige and 2.5gige
Yes but as much as I like fibre; it's too fragile for the average household structured cabling real world use case. Not to mention nothing consumwe comes with SFP+ in the home space. On Fri, 17 Dec 2021, 10:43 am David Lang, wrote: > another valuable featur of fiber for home use is that fiber can't > contribute to > ground loops the way that copper cables can. > > and for the paranoid (like me :-) ) fiber also means that any electrical > disaster that happens to one end won't propgate through and fry other > equipment > > David Lang > > On Thu, 16 Dec 2021, David P. Reed wrote: > > > Thanks, That's good to know...The whole SFP+ adapter concept has seemed > to me to be a "tweener" in hardware design space. Too many failure points. > That said, I like fiber's properties as a medium for distances. > > > > > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 2:31pm, "Joel Wirāmu Pauling" < > j...@aenertia.net> said: > > > > > > > > > > Heat issues you mention with UTP are gone; with the [ 803.bz ]( > http://803.bz ) stuff (i.e Base-N). > > It was mostly due to the 10G-Base-T spec being old and out of line with > the SFP+ spec ; which led to higher power consumption than SFP+ cages were > rated to draw and aforementioned heat problems; this is not a problem with > newer kit. > > It went away with the move to smaller silicon processes and now UTP > based 10G in the home devices are more common and don't suffer from the > fragility issues of the earlier copper based 10G spec. The AQC chipsets > were the first to introduce it but most other vendors have finally picked > it up after 5 years or feet dragging. > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 7:16 AM David P. Reed <[ dpr...@deepplum.com ]( > mailto:dpr...@deepplum.com )> wrote: > > Yes, it's very cheap and getting cheaper. > > > > Since its price fell to the point I thought was cheap, my home has a 10 > GigE fiber backbone, 2 switches in my main centers of computers, lots of 10 > GigE NICs in servers, and even dual 10 GigE adapters in a Thunderbolt 3 > external adapter for my primary desktop, which is a Skull Canyon NUC. > > > > I strongly recommend people use fiber and sfp+ DAC cabling because > twisted pair, while cheaper, actually is problematic at speeds above 1 Gig > - mostly due to power and heat. > > > > BTW, it's worth pointing out that USB 3.1 can handle 10 Gb/sec, too, and > USB-C connectors and cables can carry Thunderbolt at higher rates. Those > adapters are REALLY CHEAP. There's nothing inherently different about the > electronics, if anything, USB 3.1 is more complicate logic than the > ethernet MAC. > > > > So the reason 10 GigE is still far more expensive than USB 3.1 is mainly > market volume - if 10 GigE were a consumer product, not a datacenter > product, you'd think it would already be as cheap as USB 3.1 in computers > and switches. > > > > Since DOCSIS can support up to 5 Gb/s, I think, when will Internet > Access Providers start offering "Cable Modems" that support customers who > want more than "a full Gig"? Given all the current DOCSIS 3 CMTS's etc. out > there, it's just a configuration change. > > > > So when will consumer "routers" support 5 Gig, 10 Gig? > > > > On Thursday, December 16, 2021 11:20am, "Dave Taht" <[ > dave.t...@gmail.com ]( mailto:dave.t...@gmail.com )> said: > > > > > > > >> has really got cheap. > >> > >> [ https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ]( > https://www.tomshardware.com/news/innodisk-m2-2280-10gbe-adapter ) > >> > >> On the other hand users are reporting issues with actually using > >> 2.5ghz cable with this router in particular, halving the achieved rate > >> by negotiating 2.5gbit vs negotiating 1gbit. > >> > >> [ https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=179145#p897836 ]( > https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=179145#p897836 ) > >> > >> > >> -- > >> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > >> [ https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ]( > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org ) > >> > >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >> ___ > >> Cerowrt-devel mailing list > >> [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( mailto: > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) > >> [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ) > >> ___ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > [ Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ]( mailto: > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net ) > > [ https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ]( > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > )___ > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > ___ Cerowrt-devel mailing list Cerowrt-devel@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel
