Re: OT - UI problems
> While creativity, by its very definition, cannot be picked up by a book, > usability and other important UI concerns can. And it's important when > discussing real-world corporate experience to point out that most > real-world > corporate applications have awful UIs, and no one really cares that much. Hear hear Dave! This isn't UI entirely, but someone from Australia mentioned an experience with an HP site and being asked for contact info in a US-centric format (which he couldn't enter). It just goes to show that we can theorize ourselves to death..but alot of times what sells is NOT high quality customer focused appsit's the app with the pretty swirling doo-hickey that the investor with $20 million likes ;-) I'm sure in he cae of the HP site...some manager that didn't know any better said "Wow...that looks great...fire it up live!" my 2 cents for ya Cheers Bryan Stevenson B.Comm. VP & Director of E-Commerce Development Electric Edge Systems Group Inc. phone: 250.480.0642 fax: 250.480.1264 cell: 250.920.8830 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: www.electricedgesystems.com.cfm/54 ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:198868 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: OT - UI problems
> Unlike most developers theses days, I don't believe that > usability or UI creativity can be picked up in a book. There > needs to be a solid basis of artistic merit coupled with a > clean, modern, intuitive way of thinking. > > Through the good and the bad, real-world corporate experience > is what counts. The more the better. While creativity, by its very definition, cannot be picked up by a book, usability and other important UI concerns can. And it's important when discussing real-world corporate experience to point out that most real-world corporate applications have awful UIs, and no one really cares that much. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:198862 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: OT - UI problems
> Here's what's on my bookshelf. Of these, I > like Mullet /Sano and Spolsky the best: I would also recommend "Don't Make Me Think!" by Steve Krug. I would hold off and wait for the second edition due in July before buying it though. The first edition is great, but getting a little dated. -Justin Scott ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:198849 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: OT - UI problems
Unlike most developers theses days, I don't believe that usability or UI creativity can be picked up in a book. There needs to be a solid basis of artistic merit coupled with a clean, modern, intuitive way of thinking. Through the good and the bad, real-world corporate experience is what counts. The more the better. Cheers, Kevin -- http://www.keslabs.com Coldfusion Remote Dashboard :: http://www.keslabs.com/crd -Original Message- From: Mickael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 8:51 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: OT - UI problems Hello All, My developer and I are working on a CMS for various clients. Our clients keep coming up with new requirements as the project grow or change. We are not having any issues meeting these requirement for new functionality on the website. But in my opinion we are not achieving an elegant and easy to use interface. As I review the interfaces I am finding that they are very configurable, very scalable yet I feel that they are written for programmers or people of a technical background which kind of defeats the purpose of creating a CMS in the first place. I am sure that many people on this have faced the same issue. Can any one suggest a good resource for making easy to understand user interfaces, books, sites anything. BTW if anyone feels that they are an expert in this field I am also open to paying for Consulting in this matter. Thanks Mike ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:198848 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT - UI problems
Thomas Chiverton wrote: > > on this have faced the same issue. Can any one suggest a good resource for > > making easy to understand user interfaces, books, sites anything. > > I'd be interested in hearing of any too. Here's what's on my bookshelf. Of these, I like Mullet /Sano and Spolsky the best: Title: The Humane Interface Author: Jef Raskin ISBN: 0-201-37937-6 Jef Raskin invented the Macintosh user interface. This is an interesting read, with some applicability to design inside a browser environment, but mostly aimed at programmers IMHO. Title: Designing Visual Interfaces Authors: Kevin Mullet, Darrell Sano ISBN: 0-13-303389-9 "Describes fundamental techniques that can be used to enhance the visual quality of graphical user interfaces." I like this book a lot, and wish more web designers would read it. Title: Constructing the User Interface with Statecharts Author: Ian Horrocks ISBN: 0-201-34278-2 Highly technical exposition of the Statecharts method for user interface design. Formal methods. Aimed at software engineers. Title: Usability Engineering Author: Jacob Nielsen ISBN: 1-12-518406-9 "The purpose of Nielsen's Usability Engineering is to help nontechnical people improve the systems so that they are not only error-free, but easier and more pleasant to use, and more efficient." User Interface Design for Programmers Author: Joel Spolsky ISBN: 1-893115-94-1 Chapter 9: People Can't Read. Chapter 10: People Can't Control the Mouse. Chapter 11: People can't Remember. Chapter 13: Those Pesky Usability Tests. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:198847 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT - UI problems
On Sunday 13 Mar 2005 14:50 pm, Mickael wrote: > on this have faced the same issue. Can any one suggest a good resource for > making easy to understand user interfaces, books, sites anything. I'd be interested in hearing of any too. -- Tom Chiverton Advanced ColdFusion Programmer ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:198778 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT - UI problems
Can someone send me Jim's note I did not get it, strange? - Original Message - From: "Calvin Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 10:30 AM Subject: RE: OT - UI problems > I have to disagree. This is very much on topic in my opinion. Since when is > discussing UI design for a CF application not appropriate for cf-talk? > > I liked the rest of your post, very useful and well written. > > - Calvin > > -Original Message- > From: Jim Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 3:59 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: RE: OT - UI problems > > > -Original Message- > > From: Mickael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 9:51 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: OT - UI problems > > > > Hello All, > > First off you might consider posting this to cf-community - the discussion > there could go much farther than here. > > > ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:198655 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: OT - UI problems
I have to disagree. This is very much on topic in my opinion. Since when is discussing UI design for a CF application not appropriate for cf-talk? I liked the rest of your post, very useful and well written. - Calvin -Original Message- From: Jim Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 3:59 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: OT - UI problems > -Original Message- > From: Mickael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 9:51 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: OT - UI problems > > Hello All, First off you might consider posting this to cf-community - the discussion there could go much farther than here. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:198651 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: OT - UI problems
I have really gotten a lot of useful information from a book called The Design of Sites. It is like no other book I've seen in terms of its usefulness. It covers each aspect of a site from use cases through revisions and has a unique color system within the book to help you understand how your navigation decisions, for example, might affect various other aspects of the site. Very cool. It's about twice as much as the other books I looked at but worth it. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/020172149X/102-1025727-7573765?%5Fencoding= UTF8&n=507846&s=books&v=glance -Original Message- From: Mickael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 7:51 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: OT - UI problems Hello All, My developer and I are working on a CMS for various clients. Our clients keep coming up with new requirements as the project grow or change. We are not having any issues meeting these requirement for new functionality on the website. But in my opinion we are not achieving an elegant and easy to use interface. As I review the interfaces I am finding that they are very configurable, very scalable yet I feel that they are written for programmers or people of a technical background which kind of defeats the purpose of creating a CMS in the first place. I am sure that many people on this have faced the same issue. Can any one suggest a good resource for making easy to understand user interfaces, books, sites anything. BTW if anyone feels that they are an expert in this field I am also open to paying for Consulting in this matter. Thanks Mike ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:198615 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT - UI problems
Offering people money around here is often a good way to get yourself mobbed in a big way... many of us (like ME! ;) ) are independent and often looking for paying work to keep ourselves busy between personal/internal projects. I'd love to help, in any way I can... especially if there's dollars involved. But you have to keep in mind the fact that you may not like what you hear. In all honesty, what you've presented sounds a bit like a losing proposition because the problems that have started cropping up are based on some basic issues that could have been solved at the instigation of the project. What Continuum Media Group (my company... http://www.web-relevant.com) is currently looking for in prospecitve clients is a long-term commitment to the project, the technology, and the work it takes to create a successful project. We've got some defined strategies to help with issues like you're facing, but it may take some painful decisions to get your project back on track. I'll concur with everything Jim says in his post... a runaway project is a nasty thing to deal with, and we've had to deal with these things in the past, gently reminding clients that Phase 1 is for establishing basic functionality and identifying new features for future phases. Phase 2 is for including the primary features discovered in Phase 1... etc. This structure works well for several reasons, not the least of which is keeping clients interested in that long-term project cycle that we like to see. It makes for a much more mature, well-developed system. Hope this helps, and if you're interested in further conversations, please let me know at [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have a fantastic week! J On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 09:50:34 -0500, Mickael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello All, > > My developer and I are working on a CMS for various clients. Our clients > keep coming up with new requirements as the project grow or change. We are > not having any issues meeting these requirement for new functionality on the > website. But in my opinion we are not achieving an elegant and easy to use > interface. As I review the interfaces I am finding that they are very > configurable, very scalable yet I feel that they are written for programmers > or people of a technical background which kind of defeats the purpose of > creating a CMS in the first place. I am sure that many people on this have > faced the same issue. Can any one suggest a good resource for making easy to > understand user interfaces, books, sites anything. > > BTW if anyone feels that they are an expert in this field I am also open to > paying for Consulting in this matter. > > Thanks > > Mike -- Continuum Media Group LLC Burnsville, MN 55337 http://www.web-relevant.com http://cfobjective.neo.servequake.com ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:198609 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: OT - UI problems
> -Original Message- > From: Mickael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 9:51 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: OT - UI problems > > Hello All, First off you might consider posting this to cf-community - the discussion there could go much farther than here. > My developer and I are working on a CMS for various clients. Our clients > keep coming up with new requirements as the project grow or change. We > are not having any issues meeting these requirement for new functionality > on the website. But in my opinion we are not achieving an elegant and Scope creep without planning will kill an interface very quickly. Any elegant interface can have features nailed on, but doing so will quickly spoil the original plan. > easy to use interface. As I review the interfaces I am finding that they > are very configurable, very scalable yet I feel that they are written for Highly configurable interfaces almost always indicate a poor initial design. In my experience at least people spend way too much time on "skins" and interface customization and not nearly enough on the basic, default interface (which most people will use). An interface that's easy to use but only minimally configurable is vastly preferable to a difficult interface than can be customized. > programmers or people of a technical background which kind of defeats the > purpose of creating a CMS in the first place. I am sure that many people > on this have faced the same issue. Can any one suggest a good resource > for making easy to understand user interfaces, books, sites anything. Oh... there are thousands upon thousands of resources. For many Jakob Neilson's work (his books and the materials at http://www.useit.com/ ) is considered dogma. It's a great place to start, but you do have to climb over his ego to find the good information. ;^) His book "Homepage Usability: 50 Websites Deconstructed" is an excellent "coffee table" book that discusses in brief fifty web home pages. It's not as applicable to application development, but is still fairly applicable to most web application development. An older book of his (recently reissued) may be most useful: "Coordinating User Interfaces for Consistency". It's an excellent book but it is dated (it was first written over 10 years ago). Alan Cooper's book "About Face: The Essentials of User Interface Design" is excellent and presented from a application, rather than web, standpoint. It's very good. Edward Tufte's books on information visualization ARE dogma. Although are not directly related to software usability nearly every word of them are applicable. Steve Krug's "Don't Make Me Think" is short, easy to read but still thought provoking. It focuses on the simplicity of web interfaces and how to maintain that simplicity without losing features. For basic usability materials (mostly focused on accessibility and such) there's no better resource than http://www.Usability.gov. The publications available from the Microsoft Usability team are excellent all-around: http://www.microsoft.com/usability/publications.htm I Macromedia's area was larger, but it's still good: http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/topics/usability.html Finally there is at least one great resource for finding other resources: http://usableweb.com/ > BTW if anyone feels that they are an expert in this field I am also open > to paying for Consulting in this matter. Well... I'm a professional in the field, does that count. ;^) If you want to talk more then I'd be happy to, but for now here are some common issues you might want to consider: +) Consistency is king. Across the board one of the most common problems is that the interface is inconsistent. Inconsistency leads to confusion. Labels should be consistent (and simple) and, if possible, short. They should also be consistent in concept: avoid mixing verbs with nouns for example. Values and widgets should be consistent: text areas, input fields and values (dates, numbers, money values, etc) should all be in the same format. Don't show a pop-up calendar for one date, for example, and not for others. Lastly be consistent with the environment: the OS, the browser, other applications in a suite, etc. There's an old usability adage: Err on the side of consistency unless you can improve usability by more than 100%. In other words a de facto standard, even if wrong, should be adhered to unless you can more than double its effectiveness. +) Context is Queen. Context is the state of the process and the needs to complete it. When doing an "Oil change" process the "drip pan", the "filter wrench" and the "box wrench" are all in context for the process and need to be readily available for the proc
OT - UI problems
Hello All, My developer and I are working on a CMS for various clients. Our clients keep coming up with new requirements as the project grow or change. We are not having any issues meeting these requirement for new functionality on the website. But in my opinion we are not achieving an elegant and easy to use interface. As I review the interfaces I am finding that they are very configurable, very scalable yet I feel that they are written for programmers or people of a technical background which kind of defeats the purpose of creating a CMS in the first place. I am sure that many people on this have faced the same issue. Can any one suggest a good resource for making easy to understand user interfaces, books, sites anything. BTW if anyone feels that they are an expert in this field I am also open to paying for Consulting in this matter. Thanks Mike ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:198590 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
