RE: Money for Nothing Chicks for Free?
Someone going by the nym "Hydra" said: I continue to be mystified by these kinds of discussions. Would someone take a moment to explain this phenomenon? Kindly. If someone really writes a "FreeCF" and the Allaire Corp. goes down the tubes, then will we really all be better off? What what? Who said anything about Allaire going down the tubes? Who said anything about trying to put Allaire out of business? Certainly not me. I happen to *like* CF. While I'm glad that my employer has to pay for it (and Studio) and not me, I certainly don't want Allaire to go away any time soon. When all software is OpenSource, free, etc. then how do developers make a living? You know, it's funny you asked this. I was just having this discussion with a friend of mine last night down at IHOP. (Mmmm, blueberry blintzes. Num.) We came to the conclusion that our society is trained to think that things that you don't pay for have no value. Sad. Very sad. Let me educate you a bit on how the majority of the free software (note the lack of capitalization) industry works. When someone writes a chunk of code and gives it away (for free), it normally goes with an understanding that it is actually *unsupported*. You can have it for free, and use it for free, but don't come whining to me if it breaks. Let's take the most prominant example: Linux. Most versions of Linux are available for download at no cost. The Red Hat distribution is probably the most popular (last time I checked) and you can download it from their web site. However, and this is the catch, if you don't pay for it then it is unsupported. Where does Red Hat make their money? Support contracts. I, as a single user, have no problem with running an unsupported copy of Red Hat Linux at home. My employer, like most other companies, is a bit hazy on the whole unsupported thing. So, they are willing to shell out the cash just for the peace of mind in knowing that if they are needed, somewhere operators are standing by. Have you ever seen how much Microsoft charges for support? It's obscene. The $1K for the OS is trvial by comparison. Support is where the money is. Even with a FreeCF, Allaire would still be around. Why? Companies like having people they can point the finger at when something goes wrong. Getting back on topic ... Peter Teobald said: If the original poster is really serious about writing a FreeCF, why doesn't he make better use of his valuable time and join the PHP project? I can think of a couple of my personal motivations: 1. Because it's there. (read: because I'm a coder geek and it sounds like fun to me) 2. Because if I want to run CF at my house so I can mess around with it off-hours, I don't want to have to shell out $5K of my own money. 3. Because it'd be nice to point out a bug in CF to Allaire and then say "the FreeCF folks had it fixed in a week, what's your deal?". (read: competition is highly motivating) 4. Because it would then open the door for companies who could make a living at supporting FreeCF. (By giving away software you'd be creating jobs? Yep. Cool, huh?) 5. Because maybe, just maybe, it'd get to the point where FreeCF was actually more useful to me than CF. 6. Really cool bragging rights. Why not PHP or Mozilla or something? I did Mozilla. (Look at the list of names of people who've submitted code. I'm in there.) PHP just doesn't interest me. It's a rhetorical question, but what makes PHP a more valuable project than a FreeCF? Joe Hoffman writes: Allaire gets how many thousand dollars per copy of CF? You say that as if maybe there is something wrong with that. Didn't mean to sound like I think that there is anything *inherently* wrong with it. I do think $5K is a bit outrageous, but there are more than enough arguments about that one. Definitely don't want to start one here. :) It's the basis of a capitalist, free market economy. You work, you make the money ... not the motherland. Oh, definitely. I'm a capitalist-pig-dog like any other red-blooded American. :) However ... From what I understand from your post ... you want an independent solution Precisely. I want competition. Remember that money is only half of capitalism - competition is the other half. ;) (By the way, I'm quite amused to see a post about capitalism coming from a .gov address. Had a good chuckle at that one.) Summing up: Would a FreeCF put Allaire out of business? Nope. Would it annoy the stuffing out of them (especially their tech support)? Hopefully. What is the primary benefit of having a FreeCF? Freedom of choice. Yes, I really am this naive and optimistic. No, I haven't lived with my parents in quite some time. Yes, I do write quite a bit of software that I give away for free and I still manage to make quite a decent living. You don't have to screw people over to get ahead in life. Really, you don't. -Rick -- Archives:
RE: Money for Nothing Chicks for Free?
this it is a clear and very good mail. thanks Rick - Original Message - From: Rick Osborne (Mojo) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: CF-Talk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Peter Theobald' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Hoffman, Joe (CIT)' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 2:52 PM Subject: RE: Money for Nothing Chicks for Free? Someone going by the nym "Hydra" said: I continue to be mystified by these kinds of discussions. Would someone take a moment to explain this phenomenon? Kindly. If someone really writes a "FreeCF" and the Allaire Corp. goes down the tubes, then will we really all be better off? What what? Who said anything about Allaire going down the tubes? Who said anything about trying to put Allaire out of business? Certainly not me. I happen to *like* CF. While I'm glad that my employer has to pay for it (and Studio) and not me, I certainly don't want Allaire to go away any time soon. When all software is OpenSource, free, etc. then how do developers make a living? You know, it's funny you asked this. I was just having this discussion with a friend of mine last night down at IHOP. (Mmmm, blueberry blintzes. Num.) We came to the conclusion that our society is trained to think that things that you don't pay for have no value. Sad. Very sad. Let me educate you a bit on how the majority of the free software (note the lack of capitalization) industry works. When someone writes a chunk of code and gives it away (for free), it normally goes with an understanding that it is actually *unsupported*. You can have it for free, and use it for free, but don't come whining to me if it breaks. Let's take the most prominant example: Linux. Most versions of Linux are available for download at no cost. The Red Hat distribution is probably the most popular (last time I checked) and you can download it from their web site. However, and this is the catch, if you don't pay for it then it is unsupported. Where does Red Hat make their money? Support contracts. I, as a single user, have no problem with running an unsupported copy of Red Hat Linux at home. My employer, like most other companies, is a bit hazy on the whole unsupported thing. So, they are willing to shell out the cash just for the peace of mind in knowing that if they are needed, somewhere operators are standing by. Have you ever seen how much Microsoft charges for support? It's obscene. The $1K for the OS is trvial by comparison. Support is where the money is. Even with a FreeCF, Allaire would still be around. Why? Companies like having people they can point the finger at when something goes wrong. Getting back on topic ... Peter Teobald said: If the original poster is really serious about writing a FreeCF, why doesn't he make better use of his valuable time and join the PHP project? I can think of a couple of my personal motivations: 1. Because it's there. (read: because I'm a coder geek and it sounds like fun to me) 2. Because if I want to run CF at my house so I can mess around with it off-hours, I don't want to have to shell out $5K of my own money. 3. Because it'd be nice to point out a bug in CF to Allaire and then say "the FreeCF folks had it fixed in a week, what's your deal?". (read: competition is highly motivating) 4. Because it would then open the door for companies who could make a living at supporting FreeCF. (By giving away software you'd be creating jobs? Yep. Cool, huh?) 5. Because maybe, just maybe, it'd get to the point where FreeCF was actually more useful to me than CF. 6. Really cool bragging rights. Why not PHP or Mozilla or something? I did Mozilla. (Look at the list of names of people who've submitted code. I'm in there.) PHP just doesn't interest me. It's a rhetorical question, but what makes PHP a more valuable project than a FreeCF? Joe Hoffman writes: Allaire gets how many thousand dollars per copy of CF? You say that as if maybe there is something wrong with that. Didn't mean to sound like I think that there is anything *inherently* wrong with it. I do think $5K is a bit outrageous, but there are more than enough arguments about that one. Definitely don't want to start one here. :) It's the basis of a capitalist, free market economy. You work, you make the money ... not the motherland. Oh, definitely. I'm a capitalist-pig-dog like any other red-blooded American. :) However ... From what I understand from your post ... you want an independent solution Precisely. I want competition. Remember that money is only half of capitalism - competition is the other half. ;) (By the way, I'm quite amused to see a post about capitalism coming from a .gov address. Had a good chuckle at that one.) Summing up: Would a FreeCF put Allaire out of business? Nope. Would it annoy the stuffing out of them (especially their tech support)? Hopefully. What is
RE: Money for Nothing Chicks for Free?
Hear, Hear, good comments and rationale. Oh, and we mustn't forget good 'feelings' to for those who place more value there. It sounds like you have the background to do the coding and it would be a challenge to set up an infrastructure to support it. Yea, I'm interested. That would be competition comming in from the far reaches of the galaxy (ie totally unexpected). Let's talk offline if you want to pursue it further. Richard -Original Message- From: Rick Osborne (Mojo) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 6:52 AM To: CF-Talk Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Peter Theobald'; 'Hoffman, Joe (CIT)' Subject: RE: Money for Nothing Chicks for Free? Someone going by the nym "Hydra" said: I continue to be mystified by these kinds of discussions. Would someone take a moment to explain this phenomenon? Kindly. If someone really writes a "FreeCF" and the Allaire Corp. goes down the tubes, then will we really all be better off? What what? Who said anything about Allaire going down the tubes? Who said anything about trying to put Allaire out of business? Certainly not me. I happen to *like* CF. While I'm glad that my employer has to pay for it (and Studio) and not me, I certainly don't want Allaire to go away any time soon. When all software is OpenSource, free, etc. then how do developers make a living? You know, it's funny you asked this. I was just having this discussion with a friend of mine last night down at IHOP. (Mmmm, blueberry blintzes. Num.) We came to the conclusion that our society is trained to think that things that you don't pay for have no value. Sad. Very sad. Let me educate you a bit on how the majority of the free software (note the lack of capitalization) industry works. When someone writes a chunk of code and gives it away (for free), it normally goes with an understanding that it is actually *unsupported*. You can have it for free, and use it for free, but don't come whining to me if it breaks. Let's take the most prominant example: Linux. Most versions of Linux are available for download at no cost. The Red Hat distribution is probably the most popular (last time I checked) and you can download it from their web site. However, and this is the catch, if you don't pay for it then it is unsupported. Where does Red Hat make their money? Support contracts. I, as a single user, have no problem with running an unsupported copy of Red Hat Linux at home. My employer, like most other companies, is a bit hazy on the whole unsupported thing. So, they are willing to shell out the cash just for the peace of mind in knowing that if they are needed, somewhere operators are standing by. Have you ever seen how much Microsoft charges for support? It's obscene. The $1K for the OS is trvial by comparison. Support is where the money is. Even with a FreeCF, Allaire would still be around. Why? Companies like having people they can point the finger at when something goes wrong. Getting back on topic ... Peter Teobald said: If the original poster is really serious about writing a FreeCF, why doesn't he make better use of his valuable time and join the PHP project? I can think of a couple of my personal motivations: 1. Because it's there. (read: because I'm a coder geek and it sounds like fun to me) 2. Because if I want to run CF at my house so I can mess around with it off-hours, I don't want to have to shell out $5K of my own money. 3. Because it'd be nice to point out a bug in CF to Allaire and then say "the FreeCF folks had it fixed in a week, what's your deal?". (read: competition is highly motivating) 4. Because it would then open the door for companies who could make a living at supporting FreeCF. (By giving away software you'd be creating jobs? Yep. Cool, huh?) 5. Because maybe, just maybe, it'd get to the point where FreeCF was actually more useful to me than CF. 6. Really cool bragging rights. Why not PHP or Mozilla or something? I did Mozilla. (Look at the list of names of people who've submitted code. I'm in there.) PHP just doesn't interest me. It's a rhetorical question, but what makes PHP a more valuable project than a FreeCF? Joe Hoffman writes: Allaire gets how many thousand dollars per copy of CF? You say that as if maybe there is something wrong with that. Didn't mean to sound like I think that there is anything *inherently* wrong with it. I do think $5K is a bit outrageous, but there are more than enough arguments about that one. Definitely don't want to start one here. :) It's the basis of a capitalist, free market economy. You work, you make the money ... not the motherland. Oh, definitely. I'm a capitalist-pig-dog like any other red-blooded American. :) However ... From what I understand from your post ... you want an independent solution Precisely. I want competition. Remember that money is only half of capitalism - competition is the other half. ;) (By the way, I'm qu
RE: Money for Nothing Chicks for Free?
Rick Osborne wrote: Allaire gets how many thousand dollars per copy of CF? You say that as if maybe there is something wrong with that. It's the basis of a capitalist, free market economy. You work, you make the money ... not the motherland. From what I understand from your post ... you want an independent solution ... and like a lot of others ... that 15 minutes of fame :) Coleman wrote: Would someone take a moment to explain this phenomenon? Dreamers with a good imagination.. More power to them ... I'm still contemplating perpetual motion. Joe Hoffman mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] National Institutes of Health Center for Information Technology Division of Computer System Services -Original Message- From: Hydra [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 1:49 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Money for Nothing Chicks for Free? I continue to be mystified by these kinds of discussions. Would someone take a moment to explain this phenomenon? If someone really writes a "FreeCF" and the Allaire Corp. goes down the tubes, then will we really all be better off? When all software is OpenSource, free, etc. then how do developers make a living? Do all of you live at home with your parents or what??? -Original Message- From: Rick Osborne (Mojo) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 12:34 PM To: CF-Talk Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Crazy idea? (topical, but not programming) Allaire gets how many thousand dollars per copy of CF? Do we *really* think they're going to GPL (or even just OpenSource) it any time soon? I'm naive, but I'm not *that* naive. :) I've often pondered the feasibility of writing a "FreeCF" of some sort. (More and more lately, actually.) Of course, I have no doubt that it would be vastly inferior to the real thing. But then, that's not the point, is it? I've got the SourceForge account, I've got the compiler, and I've certainly got the motivation. My ODBC, ISAPI, and Apache mod_ skillz aren't where they were, but I'm sure I could get back up there. Now all I need is the free time. :) But, actually, you know what my numero uno motivation for writing FreeCF would be? I want a CF interpreter object library that I can embed in my applications without a web server. (Yes, yes, I know, I've thought about it, you'd still have to emulate a CGI environment, I know.) You've seen how many posts we get on "CF on a CD" and all that rot. I've thought about it, as I'm sure have most others on the list. I would *kill* for that functionality. That, and in a more selfish vein, think about the recognition for doing something like that. Allaire would sent out the men in the black sedans, but everyone else would buy you lots of free beer. (Or your favorite non-alcoholoic equivalent.) shiver Gives my ego the willies just thinkin' about it. :) Okay, that's my non-programming post for the month. I'll get back to work now. -Rick -Original Message- From: Juan Andres Alvarez Valenzuela [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 11:46 To: CF-Talk Subject: Crazy idea? any topic about a Coldfusion Open source ? what about CFML especs ? any ideas ? is it a crazy idea to have a GNU Coldfusion servers ? JUANDRES -- Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk or send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 'unsubscribe' in the body. -- Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk or send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 'unsubscribe' in the body. -- Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk or send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 'unsubscribe' in the body.
Re: Money for Nothing Chicks for Free?
-Original Message- From: Hydra [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] To: CF-Talk I continue to be mystified by these kinds of discussions. Would someone take a moment to explain this phenomenon? If someone really writes a "FreeCF" and the Allaire Corp. goes down the tubes, then will we really all be better off? When all software is OpenSource, free, etc. then how do developers make a living? Do all of you live at home with your parents or what??? There area already many alternatives to CF - ASP, IHTML, XML, PHP, SOAP to name but a few - but CF continues to go from strength to strength. The reason it does so is the same reason that we all use it here - there is no better solution right now for creating dynamic, data driven services and sites. Whether the development tool is free or commecial is irrelevant - developers make their money from using the tools to create apps, rather than selling the tool itself. Allaire though is extremely exposed as a company (IMO) having said that - it is still ostensibly a one product company unless Spectra takes off big time, and even that is still based on the same fundamental product. I want to see Allaire survive and prosper to keep on developing CF as a commercial product, but they had better diversify and fast, or exist as a takeover target. Adrian Cooper. -- Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk or send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 'unsubscribe' in the body.
VERY OT : Re: Money for Nothing Chicks for Free?
Although this is very OT: I suggest you read more about Free Software. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html Just because OS, etc are free doesn't mean programmers can't make a living. For example C/C++ is free (open standard ) since the 70's , yet C programmers still get paid $400 a day... Justin MacCarthy - Original Message - From: "Hydra" [EMAIL PROTECTED] If someone really writes a "FreeCF" and the Allaire Corp. goes down the tubes, then will we really all be better off? When all software is OpenSource, free, etc. then how do developers make a living? -- Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk or send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 'unsubscribe' in the body.
RE: Money for Nothing Chicks for Free?
There area already many alternatives to CF - ASP, IHTML, XML, PHP, SOAP to name Uh... SOAP isn't an alternative to CF. It may be an alternative to WDDX, but... Perhaps you mean Zope? Allaire ... is still ostensibly a one product company unless Spectra takes off big time, JRun is a separate product, and (not very arguably) a better product. And when they merge the two, I doubt you'll complain about it being one product. ;) Ed -- Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk or send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 'unsubscribe' in the body.
Re: Money for Nothing Chicks for Free?
- Original Message - From: "Ed Toon" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 9:09 PM JRun is a separate product, and (not very arguably) a better product. And when they merge the two, I doubt you'll complain about it being one product. ;) I wasn't complaining - just making an observation. Of course there is also "Tron" and "Harvest", and I seem to remember seeing mention of next generation CF (compiled I think) called "Pharaoh" or something like that - maybe that is the integration of CF and JRun. The sooner the better for all concerned I think. Adrian Cooper. -- Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk or send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 'unsubscribe' in the body.
RE: Money for Nothing Chicks for Free?
If the original poster is really serious about writing a FreeCF, why doesn't he make better use of his valuable time and join the PHP project? At 09:23 AM 9/24/00 -0400, Hoffman, Joe (CIT) wrote: Rick Osborne wrote: Allaire gets how many thousand dollars per copy of CF? You say that as if maybe there is something wrong with that. It's the basis of a capitalist, free market economy. You work, you make the money ... not the motherland. From what I understand from your post ... you want an independent solution ... and like a lot of others ... that 15 minutes of fame :) Coleman wrote: Would someone take a moment to explain this phenomenon? Dreamers with a good imagination.. More power to them ... I'm still contemplating perpetual motion. Joe Hoffman mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] National Institutes of Health Center for Information Technology Division of Computer System Services -Original Message- From: Hydra [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 1:49 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Money for Nothing Chicks for Free? I continue to be mystified by these kinds of discussions. Would someone take a moment to explain this phenomenon? If someone really writes a "FreeCF" and the Allaire Corp. goes down the tubes, then will we really all be better off? When all software is OpenSource, free, etc. then how do developers make a living? Do all of you live at home with your parents or what??? -Original Message- From: Rick Osborne (Mojo) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 12:34 PM To: CF-Talk Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Crazy idea? (topical, but not programming) Allaire gets how many thousand dollars per copy of CF? Do we *really* think they're going to GPL (or even just OpenSource) it any time soon? I'm naive, but I'm not *that* naive. :) I've often pondered the feasibility of writing a "FreeCF" of some sort. (More and more lately, actually.) Of course, I have no doubt that it would be vastly inferior to the real thing. But then, that's not the point, is it? I've got the SourceForge account, I've got the compiler, and I've certainly got the motivation. My ODBC, ISAPI, and Apache mod_ skillz aren't where they were, but I'm sure I could get back up there. Now all I need is the free time. :) But, actually, you know what my numero uno motivation for writing FreeCF would be? I want a CF interpreter object library that I can embed in my applications without a web server. (Yes, yes, I know, I've thought about it, you'd still have to emulate a CGI environment, I know.) You've seen how many posts we get on "CF on a CD" and all that rot. I've thought about it, as I'm sure have most others on the list. I would *kill* for that functionality. That, and in a more selfish vein, think about the recognition for doing something like that. Allaire would sent out the men in the black sedans, but everyone else would buy you lots of free beer. (Or your favorite non-alcoholoic equivalent.) shiver Gives my ego the willies just thinkin' about it. :) Okay, that's my non-programming post for the month. I'll get back to work now. -Rick -Original Message- From: Juan Andres Alvarez Valenzuela [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 11:46 To: CF-Talk Subject: Crazy idea? any topic about a Coldfusion Open source ? what about CFML especs ? any ideas ? is it a crazy idea to have a GNU Coldfusion servers ? JUANDRES -- Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk or send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 'unsubscribe' in the body. -- Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk or send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 'unsubscribe' in the body. -- Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk or send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 'unsubscribe' in the body. --- Peter Theobald, Chief Technology Officer LiquidStreaming http://www.liquidstreaming.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone 1.212.545.1232 x204 Fax 1.212.679.8032 -- Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=listsbody=lists/cf_talk or send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 'unsubscribe' in the body.
