RE: accesskey conundrum
Most disabled people use their own programs to provide access, from Screen Readers for the blind, to screen browsers (such as IBM Home page reader) for the dyslexic, to screen magnifiers for those who have limited visibility. Its not that helpful to add in your own. The standards to follow would be WCAG 1.0 from the W3c. http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10 The browsers by themselves don't take care of accessibility, we as developers need to follow the standards so that browsers that also follow the standards work well. Its a partnership, one side can't do it alone. Sandra Clark == http://www.shayna.com Training in Cascading Style Sheets and Accessibility -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 1:42 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: accesskey conundrum Hey Sandra! I figured out how to do TextToSpeech using FreeTTS and ColdFusion, but is this even a helpful feature, accessibility wise? I'm doubting it, as a screen-reader already does the job much better. Probably only helpful for the half-accessible people, where alt. versions of docs (larger text, spoken word, etc.) are better than all or nuthin, so to speak. Accessibility is interesting. Most of this is getting taken care of by the browsers now, neh? Special browsers. Better to follow the standards for the screen readers and such than to provide "extra" accessibility. Hmmm. Sounds like a cleaner solve. At any rate, if anyone's interested in text to speech, holler, I'll help. Next, speech to text... ;-) :Denny On 6/8/06, Sandra Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Except for people of course who can't see the underlines. > > If you are going to use accesskeys (and really they cause more > accessibility problems than they solve), then you also need to create > and link to an accessibility statement for the page which gives a > reference to the access keys used and what they do. > > > Sandra Clark > == > http://www.shayna.com > Training in Cascading Style Sheets and Accessibility -Original > Message- > From: Rob Wilkerson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 9:53 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: accesskey conundrum > > I'm not a big fan of access keys because of how they interfere with > the shortcuts I've set up in my environment and much-discussed > accessibility issues, but when I do use them on forms for whatever > reason, I tend to follow the Windows UI standard of underlining the > letter in the label that, in conjunction with the Alt key activates > the shortcut. Most of the people that are likely to use the shortcuts > generally seem to recognize the convention, from what I've seen. > > On 6/8/06, Andy Matthews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Damien... > > > > I like your idea of jumping to the first field in each section. > > Because honestly. Who's going to remember every key command for your > > form? Just give them 5 or 10 and they'll be happy. > > > > > andy matthews > > web developer > > certified advanced coldfusion programmer ICGLink, Inc. > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > 615.370.1530 x737 > > --//-> > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:01 PM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: OT: accesskey conundrum > > > > > > Here's the story. I'm working on a series of somewhat long forms > > that I'd like to make completely accessible using accesskeys in > > addition to other basics (labels, pure CSS layout, etc). The > > problem is that I'm ending up with more fields than accesskeys makes > > sense for, and there are multiple fields that could/should use the > > same key. One idea I had was to have one accesskey defined for the > > top field in each fieldset then just let them tab between the > > different fields, but that isn't great in e.g. OSX that has fairly > > crappy keyboard navigation anyway. So what do y'all do to overcome > > this for your accessible forms? Thanks. > > > > -- > > Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The > > Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 > > #include > > > > > > > > > > ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:243017 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: accesskey conundrum
Hey Sandra! I figured out how to do TextToSpeech using FreeTTS and ColdFusion, but is this even a helpful feature, accessibility wise? I'm doubting it, as a screen-reader already does the job much better. Probably only helpful for the half-accessible people, where alt. versions of docs (larger text, spoken word, etc.) are better than all or nuthin, so to speak. Accessibility is interesting. Most of this is getting taken care of by the browsers now, neh? Special browsers. Better to follow the standards for the screen readers and such than to provide "extra" accessibility. Hmmm. Sounds like a cleaner solve. At any rate, if anyone's interested in text to speech, holler, I'll help. Next, speech to text... ;-) :Denny On 6/8/06, Sandra Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Except for people of course who can't see the underlines. > > If you are going to use accesskeys (and really they cause more > accessibility > problems than they solve), then you also need to create and link to an > accessibility statement for the page which gives a reference to the access > keys used and what they do. > > > Sandra Clark > == > http://www.shayna.com > Training in Cascading Style Sheets and Accessibility > -Original Message- > From: Rob Wilkerson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 9:53 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: accesskey conundrum > > I'm not a big fan of access keys because of how they interfere with the > shortcuts I've set up in my environment and much-discussed accessibility > issues, but when I do use them on forms for whatever reason, I tend to > follow the Windows UI standard of underlining the letter in the label > that, > in conjunction with the Alt key activates the shortcut. Most of the > people > that are likely to use the shortcuts generally seem to recognize the > convention, from what I've seen. > > On 6/8/06, Andy Matthews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Damien... > > > > I like your idea of jumping to the first field in each section. > > Because honestly. Who's going to remember every key command for your > > form? Just give them 5 or 10 and they'll be happy. > > > > > andy matthews > > web developer > > certified advanced coldfusion programmer ICGLink, Inc. > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > 615.370.1530 x737 > > --//-> > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:01 PM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: OT: accesskey conundrum > > > > > > Here's the story. I'm working on a series of somewhat long forms that > > I'd like to make completely accessible using accesskeys in addition to > > other basics (labels, pure CSS layout, etc). The problem is that I'm > > ending up with more fields than accesskeys makes sense for, and there > > are multiple fields that could/should use the same key. One idea I > > had was to have one accesskey defined for the top field in each > > fieldset then just let them tab between the different fields, but that > > isn't great in e.g. OSX that has fairly crappy keyboard navigation > > anyway. So what do y'all do to overcome this for your accessible > > forms? Thanks. > > > > -- > > Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu > > Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include > > > > > > > > > > > > ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:243004 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: accesskey conundrum
LOL. Good point. On 6/8/06, Sandra Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Except for people of course who can't see the underlines. > > If you are going to use accesskeys (and really they cause more accessibility > problems than they solve), then you also need to create and link to an > accessibility statement for the page which gives a reference to the access > keys used and what they do. > > > Sandra Clark > == > http://www.shayna.com > Training in Cascading Style Sheets and Accessibility > -Original Message- > From: Rob Wilkerson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 9:53 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: accesskey conundrum > > I'm not a big fan of access keys because of how they interfere with the > shortcuts I've set up in my environment and much-discussed accessibility > issues, but when I do use them on forms for whatever reason, I tend to > follow the Windows UI standard of underlining the letter in the label that, > in conjunction with the Alt key activates the shortcut. Most of the people > that are likely to use the shortcuts generally seem to recognize the > convention, from what I've seen. > > On 6/8/06, Andy Matthews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Damien... > > > > I like your idea of jumping to the first field in each section. > > Because honestly. Who's going to remember every key command for your > > form? Just give them 5 or 10 and they'll be happy. > > > > > andy matthews > > web developer > > certified advanced coldfusion programmer ICGLink, Inc. > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > 615.370.1530 x737 > > --//-> > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:01 PM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject: OT: accesskey conundrum > > > > > > Here's the story. I'm working on a series of somewhat long forms that > > I'd like to make completely accessible using accesskeys in addition to > > other basics (labels, pure CSS layout, etc). The problem is that I'm > > ending up with more fields than accesskeys makes sense for, and there > > are multiple fields that could/should use the same key. One idea I > > had was to have one accesskey defined for the top field in each > > fieldset then just let them tab between the different fields, but that > > isn't great in e.g. OSX that has fairly crappy keyboard navigation > > anyway. So what do y'all do to overcome this for your accessible > > forms? Thanks. > > > > -- > > Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu > > Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include > > > > > > > > > > > > ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:242932 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: accesskey conundrum
Except for people of course who can't see the underlines. If you are going to use accesskeys (and really they cause more accessibility problems than they solve), then you also need to create and link to an accessibility statement for the page which gives a reference to the access keys used and what they do. Sandra Clark == http://www.shayna.com Training in Cascading Style Sheets and Accessibility -Original Message- From: Rob Wilkerson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 9:53 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: accesskey conundrum I'm not a big fan of access keys because of how they interfere with the shortcuts I've set up in my environment and much-discussed accessibility issues, but when I do use them on forms for whatever reason, I tend to follow the Windows UI standard of underlining the letter in the label that, in conjunction with the Alt key activates the shortcut. Most of the people that are likely to use the shortcuts generally seem to recognize the convention, from what I've seen. On 6/8/06, Andy Matthews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Damien... > > I like your idea of jumping to the first field in each section. > Because honestly. Who's going to remember every key command for your > form? Just give them 5 or 10 and they'll be happy. > > andy matthews > web developer > certified advanced coldfusion programmer ICGLink, Inc. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 615.370.1530 x737 > --//-> > > -Original Message- > From: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:01 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: OT: accesskey conundrum > > > Here's the story. I'm working on a series of somewhat long forms that > I'd like to make completely accessible using accesskeys in addition to > other basics (labels, pure CSS layout, etc). The problem is that I'm > ending up with more fields than accesskeys makes sense for, and there > are multiple fields that could/should use the same key. One idea I > had was to have one accesskey defined for the top field in each > fieldset then just let them tab between the different fields, but that > isn't great in e.g. OSX that has fairly crappy keyboard navigation > anyway. So what do y'all do to overcome this for your accessible > forms? Thanks. > > -- > Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu > Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include > > > > ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:242923 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: accesskey conundrum
I'm not a big fan of access keys because of how they interfere with the shortcuts I've set up in my environment and much-discussed accessibility issues, but when I do use them on forms for whatever reason, I tend to follow the Windows UI standard of underlining the letter in the label that, in conjunction with the Alt key activates the shortcut. Most of the people that are likely to use the shortcuts generally seem to recognize the convention, from what I've seen. On 6/8/06, Andy Matthews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Damien... > > I like your idea of jumping to the first field in each section. Because > honestly. Who's going to remember every key command for your form? Just give > them 5 or 10 and they'll be happy. > > andy matthews > web developer > certified advanced coldfusion programmer > ICGLink, Inc. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 615.370.1530 x737 > --//-> > > -Original Message- > From: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:01 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: OT: accesskey conundrum > > > Here's the story. I'm working on a series of somewhat long forms > that I'd like to make completely accessible using accesskeys in > addition to other basics (labels, pure CSS layout, etc). The problem > is that I'm ending up with more fields than accesskeys makes sense > for, and there are multiple fields that could/should use the same > key. One idea I had was to have one accesskey defined for the top > field in each fieldset then just let them tab between the different > fields, but that isn't great in e.g. OSX that has fairly crappy > keyboard navigation anyway. So what do y'all do to overcome this for > your accessible forms? Thanks. > > -- > Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 > #include > > > ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:242918 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: accesskey conundrum
Damien... I like your idea of jumping to the first field in each section. Because honestly. Who's going to remember every key command for your form? Just give them 5 or 10 and they'll be happy. -Original Message- From: Damien McKenna [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:01 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: OT: accesskey conundrum Here's the story. I'm working on a series of somewhat long forms that I'd like to make completely accessible using accesskeys in addition to other basics (labels, pure CSS layout, etc). The problem is that I'm ending up with more fields than accesskeys makes sense for, and there are multiple fields that could/should use the same key. One idea I had was to have one accesskey defined for the top field in each fieldset then just let them tab between the different fields, but that isn't great in e.g. OSX that has fairly crappy keyboard navigation anyway. So what do y'all do to overcome this for your accessible forms? Thanks. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:242906 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: OT: accesskey conundrum
There are a myriad of problems with access keys. The most important being that with the exception of about 3 or 4 combinations, that using access keys ends up conflicting with screen reader key combinations and makes them useless. Even though WAI says to use them, the reality is that they actually make an application or form less accessible to the people who would benefit from them the most. Better rule of thumb is to use fieldsets to group your fields into related sets. Sandra Clark == http://www.shayna.com Training in Cascading Style Sheets and Accessibility -Original Message- From: Denny Valliant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 8:49 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: OT: accesskey conundrum This really belongs in a JavaScript forum, dood. ;-) Just kidding. You could do it using Flash and actionscript too, probably. Or a myrad of other things. "Best" is probably javascript, and key-capturing. Use the same letter like a tab, eg, if it's "J" and then another "J" (with no other keys in between) tab to the second "J" field. There may even be a JS keycapturing API or whatnot out there, who knows. ** I dissagree with Dave (not the disrupter, the OTHER Dave (there ARE only two on cf-talk, right?) and the idea that anything is un-biased. Especially since he said allthingseven, linux is better ;) It's a nice goal, and maybe doable in real life, but not on paper. ;^) Heh. Nuff joking around. If you find a nifty javascript key-capture API, please let us know... someday I hope to have an accessible site myself. On a sorta similar OT note, I thought I saw a tag utilizing the java speech API (maybe on cfopen.org?), but now I can't find it. It was just a little proof of concept.. I can't seem to locate it now though. Ring any bells for anyone? Thanks, :D On 6/7/06, Damien McKenna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Here's the story. I'm working on a series of somewhat long forms that > I'd like to make completely accessible using accesskeys in addition to > other basics (labels, pure CSS layout, etc). The problem is that I'm > ending up with more fields than accesskeys makes sense for, and there > are multiple fields that could/should use the same key. One idea I > had was to have one accesskey defined for the top field in each > fieldset then just let them tab between the different fields, but that > isn't great in e.g. OSX that has fairly crappy keyboard navigation > anyway. So what do y'all do to overcome this for your accessible > forms? Thanks. > > -- > Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu > Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include > > > > > ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:242870 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: OT: accesskey conundrum
This really belongs in a JavaScript forum, dood. ;-) Just kidding. You could do it using Flash and actionscript too, probably. Or a myrad of other things. "Best" is probably javascript, and key-capturing. Use the same letter like a tab, eg, if it's "J" and then another "J" (with no other keys in between) tab to the second "J" field. There may even be a JS keycapturing API or whatnot out there, who knows. ** I dissagree with Dave (not the disrupter, the OTHER Dave (there ARE only two on cf-talk, right?) and the idea that anything is un-biased. Especially since he said allthingseven, linux is better ;) It's a nice goal, and maybe doable in real life, but not on paper. ;^) Heh. Nuff joking around. If you find a nifty javascript key-capture API, please let us know... someday I hope to have an accessible site myself. On a sorta similar OT note, I thought I saw a tag utilizing the java speech API (maybe on cfopen.org?), but now I can't find it. It was just a little proof of concept.. I can't seem to locate it now though. Ring any bells for anyone? Thanks, :D On 6/7/06, Damien McKenna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Here's the story. I'm working on a series of somewhat long forms > that I'd like to make completely accessible using accesskeys in > addition to other basics (labels, pure CSS layout, etc). The problem > is that I'm ending up with more fields than accesskeys makes sense > for, and there are multiple fields that could/should use the same > key. One idea I had was to have one accesskey defined for the top > field in each fieldset then just let them tab between the different > fields, but that isn't great in e.g. OSX that has fairly crappy > keyboard navigation anyway. So what do y'all do to overcome this for > your accessible forms? Thanks. > > -- > Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 > #include > > > > ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:242866 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
OT: accesskey conundrum
Here's the story. I'm working on a series of somewhat long forms that I'd like to make completely accessible using accesskeys in addition to other basics (labels, pure CSS layout, etc). The problem is that I'm ending up with more fields than accesskeys makes sense for, and there are multiple fields that could/should use the same key. One idea I had was to have one accesskey defined for the top field in each fieldset then just let them tab between the different fields, but that isn't great in e.g. OSX that has fairly crappy keyboard navigation anyway. So what do y'all do to overcome this for your accessible forms? Thanks. -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:242846 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations & Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
