[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Steve Onnis]

41% earn between 60k-80k > Thats a pretty big gap though.

  _  

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 4:19 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey



Day 1 summary. Let me know if there is a stat you might be interested in.

 

7% of people have used ColdFusion for between 0 & 2 years.

38% of people use ColdFusion 75%-90% of the time

41% earn between 60k-80k

93% of people are on Coldfusion 7

76% of people will upgrade to CF8, 20% not sure and only 4% wont

87% of people are not moving to another technology

50% of the 13% people who are moving are going to .NET

69% of people will never move technology

17% of people will look to move to new technologies 1-2+ years from now.

 

I'll keep my eye on it, but there are decent numbers, so the % probably
won't slide much either way.

 

Overall, I think the stats are pretty good, only really bad one is the
number of new developers, which is a big worry. From an Adobe point of view,
lots of good things, big % to go to CF8 and big % never plan on not using
ColdFusion.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

  http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 1:13 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] ColdFusion Survey

 

If you are interested,

 

Take part in this, I will publish the results.

 

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=TQjDx4a4pDlpuzBwxiLW4A_3d_3d

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

 





 





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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Dale Fraser]

$20-40k 3%

$40-$60k 17%

$60-$80k 45%

$80-$100k 15%

$100k + 20%

 

0% of people using Coldfusion 5 :)

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

  http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Steve Onnis
Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 5:49 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

 

41% earn between 60k-80k > Thats a pretty big gap though.

 

  _  

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 4:19 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

Day 1 summary. Let me know if there is a stat you might be interested in.

 

7% of people have used ColdFusion for between 0 & 2 years.

38% of people use ColdFusion 75%-90% of the time

41% earn between 60k-80k

93% of people are on Coldfusion 7

76% of people will upgrade to CF8, 20% not sure and only 4% wont

87% of people are not moving to another technology

50% of the 13% people who are moving are going to .NET

69% of people will never move technology

17% of people will look to move to new technologies 1-2+ years from now.

 

I'll keep my eye on it, but there are decent numbers, so the % probably
won't slide much either way.

 

Overall, I think the stats are pretty good, only really bad one is the
number of new developers, which is a big worry. From an Adobe point of view,
lots of good things, big % to go to CF8 and big % never plan on not using
ColdFusion.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 1:13 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] ColdFusion Survey

 

If you are interested,

 

Take part in this, I will publish the results.

 

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=TQjDx4a4pDlpuzBwxiLW4A_3d_3d

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

 

 

 

http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[MrBuzzy]

We only got to choose one :)

On 6/26/07, Dale Fraser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> 0% of people using Coldfusion 5 :)
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Dale Fraser
>
>
>
> http://dalefraser.blogspot.com
>
>

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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[M@ Bourke]

I filled it out, how ever being in a diff country I don't think the wage
thing would be valid.
how ever if many people from other countries also do the survey it will
throw out the wage thing, for example a US person might think it's US $, a
UK person might convert to USD or know it's AUD etc.
I'd say somewhere it's just for aussie devs (if it doesn't already say on
it)

M@

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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Peter Tilbrook]

And I was forced to choose CF7 even though I am using CF8 exclusively.

On 26/06/07, M@ Bourke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I filled it out, how ever being in a diff country I don't think the wage
> thing would be valid.
> how ever if many people from other countries also do the survey it will
> throw out the wage thing, for example a US person might think it's US $, a
> UK person might convert to USD or know it's AUD etc.
> I'd say somewhere it's just for aussie devs (if it doesn't already say on
> it)
>
> M@
>
>
>  >
>


-- 
Peter Tilbrook
ColdGen Internet Solutions
President, ACT and Region ColdFusion Users Group
PO Box 2247
Queanbeyan, NSW, 2620
AUSTRALIA

http://www.coldgen.com/
http://www.actcfug.com/

Tel: +61-2-6284-2727
Mob: +61-0432-897-437

Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MSN Messenger Live: Desktop General

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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Dale Fraser]

It is called the ColdFusion Australian Developer Survey

 

And since I only posted here, most people will be Aussies.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of M@ Bourke
Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 6:42 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

 

I filled it out, how ever being in a diff country I don't think the wage
thing would be valid.
how ever if many people from other countries also do the survey it will
throw out the wage thing, for example a US person might think it's US $, a
UK person might convert to USD or know it's AUD etc. 
I'd say somewhere it's just for aussie devs (if it doesn't already say on
it)

M@



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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Dale Fraser]

Well at least you would have been a yes for upgrade.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Peter Tilbrook
Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 7:06 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


And I was forced to choose CF7 even though I am using CF8 exclusively.

On 26/06/07, M@ Bourke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I filled it out, how ever being in a diff country I don't think the wage
> thing would be valid.
> how ever if many people from other countries also do the survey it will
> throw out the wage thing, for example a US person might think it's US $, a
> UK person might convert to USD or know it's AUD etc.
> I'd say somewhere it's just for aussie devs (if it doesn't already say on
> it)
>
> M@
>
>
>  >
>


-- 
Peter Tilbrook
ColdGen Internet Solutions
President, ACT and Region ColdFusion Users Group
PO Box 2247
Queanbeyan, NSW, 2620
AUSTRALIA

http://www.coldgen.com/
http://www.actcfug.com/

Tel: +61-2-6284-2727
Mob: +61-0432-897-437

Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MSN Messenger Live: Desktop General




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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Peter Tilbrook]

M@ is an Aussie but working overseas (London I think).

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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[M@ Bourke]

But wage differences would throw out the results if Aussies in diff
countries were to fill it out, and then someone in oz wanted to work out
market rates of oz roles.
on a diff note, state would have been a good option for the survey, to see
if Brisvegas is still the cf capital

On 6/26/07, Peter Tilbrook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> M@ is an Aussie but working overseas (London I think).
>
>
>

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[cfaussie] Interesting (and depressing) reading: Communications Infrastructure and Services Availability in Australia 2006-07

[ACTCFUG]

The Communications Infrastructure and Services Availability Report
2006-07 is a joint report issued by ACMA and the Australian
Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC). The report provides an
update to ACMA's Communications Services Availability in Australia
2005-06 report and the ACCC's Telecommunications Infrastructure in
Australia 2004.

ACMA and the ACCC have issued a joint report as part of a program of
cooperation to minimise overlap in information collection and
reporting between the two agencies. The report provides an overview of
infrastructure and service availability for internet, fixed voice,
mobile voice, mobile data, television and radio broadcasting services.

The report is available to download by chapter or in its entirety in
PDF and Word formats.

Full info available at:

http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD..PC//pc=PC_100215


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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Dale Fraser]

Well it's just a survey.

 

People lie in Surveys also, put higher salaries etc. So I'd use the figures
as a guide not gospel. There are differences between VIC / NSW also but I
wanted to keep it simple.

 

Regards

Dale Fraser

 

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

 

From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of M@ Bourke
Sent: Tuesday, 26 June 2007 8:27 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

 

But wage differences would throw out the results if Aussies in diff
countries were to fill it out, and then someone in oz wanted to work out
market rates of oz roles.
on a diff note, state would have been a good option for the survey, to see
if Brisvegas is still the cf capital 

On 6/26/07, Peter Tilbrook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


M@ is an Aussie but working overseas (London I think).







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[cfaussie] Cfqueryparam and Dates

[Scott Thornton]

Hi,

Any one got any tips on handling null\blank dates with queryparams?

Turns out


throws an error as CreateODBCDateTime() in the value attrib expects a date, and 
my query result does not have one.

I guess I could use

= 
  

  



but is seems a bit verbose.


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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Haikal Saadh]

> 50% of the 13% people who are moving are going to .NET
>
What about the other 50%? Java?

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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Mark Mandel]

I was thinking about 'moving technology' as I drove into work today...

If I ever want to do that, the first place I would end up moving would
be to something like Flex or AIR applications, simply because of the
demand, and because I could keep my hands in CF still.

>From there I would probably move to Java - but realistically I would
want to stay in Adobe space for as long as I could - and I think that
there are enough jobs out there to do that without any trouble.

Mark

On 6/27/07, Haikal Saadh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> > 50% of the 13% people who are moving are going to .NET
> >
> What about the other 50%? Java?
>
> >
>


-- 
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: www.compoundtheory.com

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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Dale Fraser]

Here are the status for people moving to new technologies.

.NET42%
PHP 29%
Other 15%
Java14%
Ruby   0%

Remember that only 13% of people surveyed are moving.

I wonder what the other is, did I miss some key technology?

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com


-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Haikal Saadh
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:12 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey



> 50% of the 13% people who are moving are going to .NET
>
What about the other 50%? Java?




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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Dale Fraser]

Personally I would put Java down the list, probably about the position it
got ranked.

The reasons are numerous, but in summary

1. It's overly complicated java classes etc
2. It changes too much
3. It's desktop development is years behind .NET

I think that's probably why .NET won, because you can use one language and
framework and develop for web, mobiles, desktop, server etc. But I'm
probably biased as we develop both client and server components, currently
in C++ and ColdFusion.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Mark Mandel
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:22 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


I was thinking about 'moving technology' as I drove into work today...

If I ever want to do that, the first place I would end up moving would
be to something like Flex or AIR applications, simply because of the
demand, and because I could keep my hands in CF still.

>From there I would probably move to Java - but realistically I would
want to stay in Adobe space for as long as I could - and I think that
there are enough jobs out there to do that without any trouble.

Mark

On 6/27/07, Haikal Saadh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> > 50% of the 13% people who are moving are going to .NET
> >
> What about the other 50%? Java?
>
> >
>


-- 
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: www.compoundtheory.com




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[cfaussie] Re: Cfqueryparam and Dates

[Andrew Scott]

Yes and no,

Try doing this instead.


  


There are two things here, by default the DB will set that field to null if
it is not passed. Unless you have set the DB up to default to another value.

If I was you I would maybe look at transfer / Reactor, these things are
handled already and would minimise your code that you need to write and
worry about as well.


Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273


-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Scott Thornton
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 9:55 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Cfqueryparam and Dates


Hi,

Any one got any tips on handling null\blank dates with queryparams?

Turns out


throws an error as CreateODBCDateTime() in the value attrib expects a date,
and my query result does not have one.

I guess I could use

= 
  

  



but is seems a bit verbose.



No virus found in this incoming message.
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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Andrew Scott]

Not sure about key...

But there is perl, awk, lisp to name a few off the top of my head.



Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:32 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Here are the status for people moving to new technologies.

.NET42%
PHP 29%
Other 15%
Java14%
Ruby   0%

Remember that only 13% of people surveyed are moving.

I wonder what the other is, did I miss some key technology?

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Dale Fraser]

Andrew,

Seriously?

Someone is moving from ColdFusion to perl, awk or lisp?

I don't think so.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Andrew Scott
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:43 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Not sure about key...

But there is perl, awk, lisp to name a few off the top of my head.



Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:32 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Here are the status for people moving to new technologies.

.NET42%
PHP 29%
Other 15%
Java14%
Ruby   0%

Remember that only 13% of people surveyed are moving.

I wonder what the other is, did I miss some key technology?

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

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Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Andrew Scott]

Dale,

Hmm, I think you and I are not on the same page.

As far as over complicated classes, I will disagree. I would love that
complication in CF, and the reason behind that is Design Patterns and
Coldfusion can do these patterns just not efficient enough.

Well we go interfaces anyway, and that will be the most ever used new
feature to come out of CF8.



Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:40 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Personally I would put Java down the list, probably about the position it
got ranked.

The reasons are numerous, but in summary

1. It's overly complicated java classes etc
2. It changes too much
3. It's desktop development is years behind .NET

I think that's probably why .NET won, because you can use one language and
framework and develop for web, mobiles, desktop, server etc. But I'm
probably biased as we develop both client and server components, currently
in C++ and ColdFusion.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.9/872 - Release Date: 26/06/2007
6:43 PM
 


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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Andrew Scott]

No, that was not what I was implying. Just that there are certainly more
options out there from a cgi perspective than what you listed.

So other could be covering up to 20 more technologies that aren't
mainstream.


Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:47 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Andrew,

Seriously?

Someone is moving from ColdFusion to perl, awk or lisp?

I don't think so.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com



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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Dale Fraser]

I'm talking about the Java classes you get to work with. They are ugly.

Simple things become very complicated, reading a text file for example and
writing to a text file are totally different classes with different methods
etc.

There are heaps of examples like this.

Java have hurt themselves more than anyone else has, the create confusion
with branding choices, the have fights with bigger companies getting them
selves excluded.

Just my opinion, but they are right down on my list.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Andrew Scott
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:51 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Dale,

Hmm, I think you and I are not on the same page.

As far as over complicated classes, I will disagree. I would love that
complication in CF, and the reason behind that is Design Patterns and
Coldfusion can do these patterns just not efficient enough.

Well we go interfaces anyway, and that will be the most ever used new
feature to come out of CF8.



Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:40 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Personally I would put Java down the list, probably about the position it
got ranked.

The reasons are numerous, but in summary

1. It's overly complicated java classes etc
2. It changes too much
3. It's desktop development is years behind .NET

I think that's probably why .NET won, because you can use one language and
framework and develop for web, mobiles, desktop, server etc. But I'm
probably biased as we develop both client and server components, currently
in C++ and ColdFusion.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Dale Fraser]

Yeah, but what?

What is this % of people moving to from ColdFusion. I can't even think of
another option to consider than what I listed.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Andrew Scott
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:54 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


No, that was not what I was implying. Just that there are certainly more
options out there from a cgi perspective than what you listed.

So other could be covering up to 20 more technologies that aren't
mainstream.


Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:47 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Andrew,

Seriously?

Someone is moving from ColdFusion to perl, awk or lisp?

I don't think so.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com



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Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.9/872 - Release Date: 26/06/2007
6:43 PM
 





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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Robin Hilliard]

On 26/06/2007, at 4:56 PM, Andrew Scott wrote:
>  Provide a mechanism to allow better plugin support, CFX  
> has not been improved since V5.0

By plug-in do you specifically mean custom tags?  What's wrong with  
all the other stuff (web services, gateways, direct Java class  
access, .NET assembly support in CF8) that allows you to extend CF?

> The biggest problem is the cost of Coldfusion, and not the  
> difference between the USD and AUD but the cost of Enterprise  
> deployment. Coldfusion has the potential to be a market leader for  
> its RAD, but is let down by the license cost.  Open source will  
> kill Coldfusion

Is your issue cost or Open Source?  They are different things.  Cost- 
wise, you know that there have always been free alternatives to  
ColdFusion.  And I'd argue that ColdFusion IS the leader in the paid- 
for, commercial application  server market.  Compare it to Websphere,  
Weblogic, Oracle and others that aren't provided for free (with or  
without an OS) and it's orders of magnitude cheaper and more  
popular.  You may say that's being selective, but really, is a market  
where everything is free still a market?

I can't see the business case for Macromedia/Adobe to have made  
ColdFusion free 5-6 years ago.  Perhaps you could tell us what your  
pitch to the Macromedia shareholders would have been: presumably  
something better than "Hey, if we make ColdFusion free we can earn no  
revenue and pay a few million in salary each year for a greater usage  
of ColdFusion". There is no later point at which Adobe benefits  
financially from ColdFusion adaptation.  In this it is unlike the  
free Flex SDK and Flash players - these drive migration to the Flash  
platform, and Adobe earns licensing revenue later on from licensing  
Flash on hardware devices.

> And my boss a Coldfusion developer, knows what Coldfusion can  
> deliver but will not look at adding that much cost to an  
> application we plan on selling, it is not cost effective to us and  
> our business model.

Have you have investigated OEM licensing of ColdFusion - or what  
about an ASP model?

Cheers,
Robin




Robin Hilliard

CEO - RocketBoots Pty Limited
Consulting . Recruitment . Software Licensing . Training
http://www.rocketboots.com.au

m+61 418 414 341
e[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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[cfaussie] Cfqueryparam and Dates

[Scott Thornton]

err, I think that would have to be (on Update):


 mydatefield =  


?

And if I leave it out, the fields keeps the same value.

I think I will go with the approach below.

I think if I were starting a new project I would look into these fandangled 
frameworks, but meanwhile I am stuck with the current coding standard (or lack 
thereof.. Its not my system, and the guy who owns it will never change!).

I must confess that every time I start looking into them after a few hours I 
get too confused over the many choices and give up at the moment.



>>> Andrew Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 27/06/2007 10:40 am >>>

Yes and no,

Try doing this instead.


  


There are two things here, by default the DB will set that field to null if
it is not passed. Unless you have set the DB up to default to another value.

If I was you I would maybe look at transfer / Reactor, these things are
handled already and would minimise your code that you need to write and
worry about as well.


Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au 
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273


-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Scott Thornton
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 9:55 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com 
Subject: [cfaussie] Cfqueryparam and Dates


Hi,

Any one got any tips on handling null\blank dates with queryparams?

Turns out


throws an error as CreateODBCDateTime() in the value attrib expects a date,
and my query result does not have one.

I guess I could use

= 
  

  



but is seems a bit verbose.



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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Andrew Scott]

And .Net falls into the same category as Java.

The thing is abstraction, both Java and .Net provide a safe mechanism to use
the underlying framework, and it's up to you if you decide to use the lower
level API or the higher level API.

File access is a good example, of how you can raw read, or an the interface
for buffering the file, it is not complicated when you understand why they
exist and when to use them.

One of the best things is that it has been designed to allow for refactoring
easily as has .Net


Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 11:08 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


I'm talking about the Java classes you get to work with. They are ugly.

Simple things become very complicated, reading a text file for example and
writing to a text file are totally different classes with different methods
etc.

There are heaps of examples like this.

Java have hurt themselves more than anyone else has, the create confusion
with branding choices, the have fights with bigger companies getting them
selves excluded.

Just my opinion, but they are right down on my list.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Andrew Scott
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:51 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Dale,

Hmm, I think you and I are not on the same page.

As far as over complicated classes, I will disagree. I would love that
complication in CF, and the reason behind that is Design Patterns and
Coldfusion can do these patterns just not efficient enough.

Well we go interfaces anyway, and that will be the most ever used new
feature to come out of CF8.



Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:40 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Personally I would put Java down the list, probably about the position it
got ranked.

The reasons are numerous, but in summary

1. It's overly complicated java classes etc
2. It changes too much
3. It's desktop development is years behind .NET

I think that's probably why .NET won, because you can use one language and
framework and develop for web, mobiles, desktop, server etc. But I'm
probably biased as we develop both client and server components, currently
in C++ and ColdFusion.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.9/872 - Release Date: 26/06/2007
6:43 PM
 






No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.9/872 - Release Date: 26/06/2007
6:43 PM
 

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Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.9/872 - Release Date: 26/06/2007
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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Andrew Scott]

Dale,

You will be surprised what people will look at, they might know a perl
evangelist and was talked into going to perl. They might have had a C/C++
background and have been asked to write true CGI interfacing.

Or god forbid they looked at the need for lotus notes development, and have
been persuaded by the dark side.

There are many reasons for one's decision. Like mine to Java, it is forced
upon me and the others if I want to remain with this company. Just like your
Java developers when you took your position, learn or move on.


Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 11:09 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Yeah, but what?

What is this % of people moving to from ColdFusion. I can't even think of
another option to consider than what I listed.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Andrew Scott
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:54 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


No, that was not what I was implying. Just that there are certainly more
options out there from a cgi perspective than what you listed.

So other could be covering up to 20 more technologies that aren't
mainstream.


Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:47 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Andrew,

Seriously?

Someone is moving from ColdFusion to perl, awk or lisp?

I don't think so.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com



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6:43 PM
 






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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Andrew Scott]

Robin,

 

Yes I am talking about tag / function development.

 

Web services, can't fault that as java2wsdl and wsdl2java is the most used.
Gateways, well natively I have to use what is implemented, but what if I
want to override that functionality with another 3rd party. The only way to
do this is to write more code to interface into this, which is not providing
a mechanism to override.

 

Java and .Net access is not the issue, unless I could run the 2 in the same
template as CFML (Coldfusion 8 can't handle that) Bluedragon yes, coldfusion
no.

 

As for cost vs open source, yes they are different.

 

Open source, let's look at the .Net integration currently this use the JNDI
.Net bridge which costs to use and in 6 months time someone releases an open
source version. How can I incorporate that into Coldfusion to override the
implemented one in Coldfusion now. So that I could use the same code without
having to rewrite every CreateObject? You have to love design patterns, that
is why they exist so that refactoring is kept to a minimal.

 

You can't compare coldfusion to Application Servers, coldfusion is a
scripting interpreter that runs on an Application server. Now JRun is behind
the eight ball, sure it has been patched to run Coldfusion 8 but how many
J2EE applications do not run on JRun.

 

I tried to get Roller (apache weblogger) running on JRun, to find that there
is an issue running struts on JRun. Jira the most popular ticketing / issue
tracker will not install on JRun nor will confluence. So if you want to make
a comparison of Application Servers then compare JRun to JBoss, Websphere
etc.

 

Now the argument I make is simple, how can I incorporate rendering engines
like sitemesh or verlocity into Coldfusion easily or wish to incorporate our
rendering engine for templating API's into coldfusion it can't be done at
the level it needs to be done.

 

Now as you can see I am talking at an Enterprise level, these sort of things
wouldn't be the average cup of tea for standard every day users. But the
thing is that the Cost of coldfusion is $10k for a 2 cpu license, we spent
around $2k developing the infrastructure to incorporate all that we need
(open source projects) into an Application to run on any Application Server,
except JRun due to the limitations of JRun.

 

Now in the infrastructure we are looking at, that's $2k compared to $750k.

 

Now tell me how Coldfusion cost is valid?

 

And we get to patch our application anytime we want, we do not rely on a
closed application and we can fix the open source code any time and submit
back to the application development team. But the thing is that we are not
hindered into moving forward at anytime, nor are we waiting 2 years for a
solution to a problem and if something is not working we remove and replace
with something that is maybe better and due to design patterns in place the
factory patterns have allowed us to do this with minimal impact to our
application.

 

Coldfusion is not going to win Enterprise development, unless it is hosting
companies where they can maybe make some of their money back by
virtualisation of the servers.

 

Look I am a diehard coldfusion developer, I will remain developing in my
spare time but I can't justify what we need to do in an Enterprise solution,
and even consider Coldfusion for that matter. And we are not alone, this is
why Coldfusion will not make a serious impact anymore on Enterpirse
deployments (notice I said deployments) Because we are not going to tie our
application to one Application server and the license of coldfusion places
to much cost on our application.

 

Oh and when I beta Tested the very first carnation of Coldfusion Rebort
Builder, I posted a bug that stated while Report builder can not place
boxes, lines etc across sections they are cutting their own throats. You
can't use an application like report builder and be serious about providing
a service for reports, when open source and free alternatives provide a
better solution. And yet there is no way to override the cftags, you need to
provide a facade to the problem.

 

I could go on and on, but after 5 years report builder is still a pathetic
abortion to something that was a half assed attempt to provide a solution,
this is something that as annoyed me with every new release of Coldfusion
and we can't override or fix these annoyances and have to keep complaining
till they get fixed.

 

We as a company can't afford to wait 5 years for something that might or
might not get fixed, and look for an alternative solution now. And this is
why management are not seriously looking into Coldfusion on an Enterprise
level. We have a project manager here who used to work for eBay and he hates
Microsoft, but he is good at what he does and I tell you know I am only
echoing what I and others are up against when trying to defend coldfusion,
how can we when we have no leg to stand on?

 



Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
HYPER

[cfaussie] Re: Cfqueryparam and Dates

[Andrew Scott]

Scott,

As for ORM frameworks it was only a suggestion


Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Scott Thornton
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 11:27 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Cfqueryparam and Dates


err, I think that would have to be (on Update):


 mydatefield =  


?

And if I leave it out, the fields keeps the same value.

I think I will go with the approach below.

I think if I were starting a new project I would look into these fandangled
frameworks, but meanwhile I am stuck with the current coding standard (or
lack thereof.. Its not my system, and the guy who owns it will never
change!).

I must confess that every time I start looking into them after a few hours I
get too confused over the many choices and give up at the moment.



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Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.9/872 - Release Date: 26/06/2007
6:43 PM
 


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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Dale Fraser]

Andrew,

"when you took your position, learn or move on"

I did learn it, and I did move on, moved on to ColdFusion.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Andrew Scott
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 11:38 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Dale,

You will be surprised what people will look at, they might know a perl
evangelist and was talked into going to perl. They might have had a C/C++
background and have been asked to write true CGI interfacing.

Or god forbid they looked at the need for lotus notes development, and have
been persuaded by the dark side.

There are many reasons for one's decision. Like mine to Java, it is forced
upon me and the others if I want to remain with this company. Just like your
Java developers when you took your position, learn or move on.


Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 11:09 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Yeah, but what?

What is this % of people moving to from ColdFusion. I can't even think of
another option to consider than what I listed.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Andrew Scott
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:54 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


No, that was not what I was implying. Just that there are certainly more
options out there from a cgi perspective than what you listed.

So other could be covering up to 20 more technologies that aren't
mainstream.


Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 10:47 AM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Andrew,

Seriously?

Someone is moving from ColdFusion to perl, awk or lisp?

I don't think so.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com



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Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.9/872 - Release Date: 26/06/2007
6:43 PM
 






No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.9/872 - Release Date: 26/06/2007
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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.9/872 - Release Date: 26/06/2007
6:43 PM
 





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[cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey

[Andrew Scott]

Sorry Dale,

That was worded wrong, I wasn't referring to you I meant your java
developers. But I applauded you for winning over the Java development
mentality.


Andrew Scott
Senior Coldfusion Developer
Aegeon Pty. Ltd.
www.aegeon.com.au
Phone: +613  8676 4223
Mobile: 0404 998 273



-Original Message-
From: cfaussie@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dale Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 12:15 PM
To: cfaussie@googlegroups.com
Subject: [cfaussie] Re: ColdFusion Survey


Andrew,

"when you took your position, learn or move on"

I did learn it, and I did move on, moved on to ColdFusion.

Regards
Dale Fraser

http://dalefraser.blogspot.com

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.9/872 - Release Date: 26/06/2007
6:43 PM
 


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[cfaussie] column order

[Mark Ireland]

How can I work out how it is that the column order is preserved in a 
wddxPacket and not in a cfquery?





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