[cfaussie] Re: Quoting - calculate the planning to dev to testing ratio
I've posted a excel spreadsheet I've done before (in the past) which helps break down the work load into ratings of high/medium/low. http://www.mossyblog.com/archives/504.cfm I've been getting more and more into BPMN / UML with simulations attached. In that breakdown a project into BPMN using various tools (www.igrafx.com is my fav atm) once thats pegged down it also gives the client(s) or stakeholder(s) a reply in terms of what they want vs need. Based on that, one is able to focus on each task / process more in depth (ie 3 tiers of breakdown is generally a rule of thumb... the 4th tier would then be more UML focused). This is for quite large projects but for small once, i use the excel spreadsheet solution to simply rate high/med/low on classes and methods associated with them or more to the point actions that need making and it is pretty close to the mark in terms of quoting - when used heh. On 4/23/06, Mike Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Over the last 10 years I've had quite a few clients who havent had much more of an idea of what they want than i need a web site for my online store. Early on, I made the silly mistake of getting started on designs in the hope that if i gave them some idea of what it could look like, that would help them pin down more specifically what they needed. Dumb idea. I ended up doing a lot of work only to have the client say well i dont like that much, so I'll see if i can get a better idea from someone else. Lesson: no design work until you work out from the client what they want and get a payment up front. Not even a few suggested ideas. Similarly, no dev work either for much the same reason. And I reckon you cant work out what your design or development component is going to take you in terms of time and resources until you pin down what's going to be there. Do you need a flash expert? DBA? Designer? How do you know (and therefore how can you cost for it) if you havent specified out the site? It's amazing how many people not in the IT business are a bit surprised by my approach to it.They wouldnt ask a builder for a quote on building a house before they even decide how many bedrooms they need. As to Duncan's initial question about a rule of thumb as to proportions of time spent on the different phases of the project -i doubt whether you could draw a rule of thumb, since so few projects are just cookie-cutter versions of previous projects.You have to spec the job first, then cost all the rest of the project based on that. I guess you could keep track of how much time you spent doing the spec and build that into the quote, either as a cost/overhead recovery or a specific quoted item. Even when I look back at the sites I've built that are structurally similar, I can't really say there is a pattern about the amount of time spent on the different phases. Even for the same as that other job sites, there are significant differences in the amount of time spent.on each phase. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On 4/23/06, Peter Tilbrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree about the design component. But if the client has no idea of what they want - or even some of the steps to get there... -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Quoting - calculate the planning to dev to testing ratio
Over the last 10 years I've had quite a few clients who havent had much more of an idea of what they want than i need a web site for my online store. Early on, I made the silly mistake of getting started on designs in the hope that if i gave them some idea of what it could look like, that would help them pin down more specifically what they needed. Dumb idea. I ended up doing a lot of work only to have the client say well i dont like that much, so I'll see if i can get a better idea from someone else. Lesson: no design work until you work out from the client what they want and get a payment up front. Not even a few suggested ideas. Similarly, no dev work either for much the same reason. And I reckon you cant work out what your design or development component is going to take you in terms of time and resources until you pin down what's going to be there. Do you need a flash expert? DBA? Designer? How do you know (and therefore how can you cost for it) if you havent specified out the site? It's amazing how many people not in the IT business are a bit surprised by my approach to it.They wouldnt ask a builder for a quote on building a house before they even decide how many bedrooms they need. As to Duncan's initial question about a rule of thumb as to proportions of time spent on the different phases of the project -i doubt whether you could draw a rule of thumb, since so few projects are just cookie-cutter versions of previous projects.You have to spec the job first, then cost all the rest of the project based on that. I guess you could keep track of how much time you spent doing the spec and build that into the quote, either as a cost/overhead recovery or a specific quoted item. Even when I look back at the sites I've built that are structurally similar, I can't really say there is a pattern about the amount of time spent on the different phases. Even for the same as that other job sites, there are significant differences in the amount of time spent.on each phase. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com ColdFusion, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month On 4/23/06, Peter Tilbrook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree about the design component. But if the client has no idea of what they want - or even some of the steps to get there... --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Quoting - calculate the planning to dev to testing ratio
There are a lot of people doing 110% around here! Lately I have been of the impression that generally you should spend plenty of time in design, and less in dev and about the same again in testing because if you get the design right, wireframes, func spec etc then the client can see what they will get before you actually get dirty. This way the dirty stage doesnt get ugly when you have to change things because you didnt get the right questions asked in req gathering stage. I was wondering how this view is received by others. Duncan On 4/18/06, M@ Bourke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The requirement stage is the most important stage of any project as the dev and testing stage will refer directly back to the requirement stage I say 30% requirement stage (allowing back and forth crap during dev) 55% dev 20% testing (allowing back and forth crap) 5% maths classes M@ -- Duncan I Loxton [EMAIL PROTECTED] --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Quoting - calculate the planning to dev to testing ratio
I agree about the design component. But if the client has no idea of what they want - or even some of the steps to get there... --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Quoting - calculate the planning to dev to testing ratio
The wonderful debate over what is known as prop work. How much do you give them before you start charging? This can range from documentation to design. Larger studios have the benefit of developed intelectual property of automated templates and well structured methodology to handle a wide range of projects. If there is doubt as to the scope of the project, be up front about it. Quote what you know, build in boundries and a project schedule that allows for quote review at the milestones. It's all about open communication. As Covey says, Win-Win-No Deal. Either they win and you win, or no deal and that's OK. Chad who says no deal... and that's OK On 4/18/06, Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We are trying to come up with some sort of rough basis so that we can get a ballpark figure back to the client before launching into the Func spec stage. Some dont even want to progress past intial quote with out knowing how much they are letting themselves in for. This, on smaller projects means its a waste of time (because we dont get paid) to go out and do a func spec only for the client to say no. Someone told me that this stuff exists somewhere, but I havent been able to find it. Probably because I am a developer not a project manager. Lets say we have these categories: Func Spec Tech Spec Development Test Scripts Testing Rework Dev documentation User Documentation Implementation What proportion of your time would you spend on these if say your dev hours for project x were 5 days? On 4/18/06, Chad Renando [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No formula here. Factors to consider include the experience of the programmer, the intellectual property of the studio, the level of customization required (including use of pre-built and pre-tested code), the amount of support available for similar types of application (bleeding edge technology vs. crunch and punch), and the main time delayer... amount of client-supplied content or requirements involved. Or you could just use the factor of 2. How long until you're finished? Oh, a couple of hours When will you deliver? In a couple of days How long for build? 2 weeks When will we get paid? In a couple of months :) Chad who will be done in a couple of hours On 4/18/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A bit OT I know but does any one work with a formula that takes an estimated number of hours in dev and then calculates (roughly) how much time is required for specs, dev, documentation, testing? -- Duncan I Loxton [EMAIL PROTECTED] --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Quoting - calculate the planning to dev to testing ratio
The requirement stage is the most important stage of any projectas the dev and testing stage will refer directly back to the requirement stageI say 30% requirement stage (allowing back and forth crap during dev) 55% dev20% testing (allowing back and forth crap)5% maths classesM@ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Quoting - calculate the planning to dev to testing ratio
Rule of thumb at Andersen Consulting (now Accenture) was 40% development (i.e. to unit test complete stage), 60% for the rest. You did say roughly :-) Anyway that would give you a lower limit - AC is a reasonably process heavy organisation. Robin __ Robin Hilliard Director - RocketBoots Pty Ltd Consulting . Software Licensing . Recruitment . Training http://www.rocketboots.com.au For schedule/availability call Pamela Higgins: w+61 7 5451 0362 m+61 419 677 151 f+61 3 9923 6261 e[EMAIL PROTECTED] or Direct: m+61 418 414 341 e[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Worldwide Adobe Licensing - Volume discounts now start at one point *** On 18/04/2006, at 10:32 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A bit OT I know but does any one work with a formula that takes an estimated number of hours in dev and then calculates (roughly) how much time is required for specs, dev, documentation, testing? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[cfaussie] Re: Quoting - calculate the planning to dev to testing ratio
No formula here. Factors to consider include the experience of the programmer, the intellectual property of the studio, the level of customization required (including use of pre-built and pre-tested code), the amount of support available for similar types of application (bleeding edge technology vs. crunch and punch), and the main time delayer... amount of client-supplied content or requirements involved. Or you could just use the factor of 2. How long until you're finished? Oh, a couple of hours When will you deliver? In a couple of days How long for build? 2 weeks When will we get paid? In a couple of months :) Chad who will be done in a couple of hours On 4/18/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A bit OT I know but does any one work with a formula that takes an estimated number of hours in dev and then calculates (roughly) how much time is required for specs, dev, documentation, testing? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups cfaussie group. To post to this group, send email to cfaussie@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cfaussie -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
