Re: PRI vs T1
outstanding!! "michael champion" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/28/00 02:45PM A T1 frame is 193 bits. 192 bits (24X8) corresponds to data, and 1 bit is used for synchronization. There are 8000 frames per second. T1 was originally defined for PCM-encoded voice (8 bits per channel, but 1 bit for signaling when needed - "robbed-bit signaling"), with 24 voice channels per frame. It is actually unfortunate that "T-1" became a generic term for anything that has a 1.544 Mbs bit-rate, because T1, DS1, and ISDN PRI should be defined completely differently. T1 should have been reserved for 24-channel voice, DS1 for 24-channel data, and PRI for 23-channel +1D-channel (ISDN). Regardless T1 frame= 24(8-bit voice + signaling) channels + 1sync bit DS1 frame = 24(8-bit digital data) + 1 sync bit ISDN frame = 23(8-bit digital data) + 1(8-bit signaling) + 1 sync-bit(as logically represented on a T1 carrier) Therefore, 193X8000 = 1544000 clock-rate for T1 (DS1). 192X8000 = 1536000 data-bits/sec for T1 (DS1). 1X8000 = 8000 sync-bits/sec for T1 (DS1). Notice that there is no defined signaling channel. If multiple sites are sharing a T1(DS1) link then without some form of common signaling there would have to be in-band signaling, which would reduce the 8-bits per channel to 7-bits per channel (ever heard of "switched-56K"?). Fractional T1 would allow common signaling for a higher user data-rate. Therefore, assuming that some form of out-of-band signaling exists, T1(DS1) provides 1.536 Mbs of bandwidth, with 8Kbs lost due to sync bits. The question for PRI becomes even more confused. 23 B-channels + 1 D-channel + 1 sync-bit, but the D-channel is primarily used for common signaling. The question is if there are 23 B-channels at 64Kbs each, how much of the D-channel's bandwidth can be used for user data, if any (for example, by running X25 on top of the signaling channel)? This would imply that PRI would have only 23X64Kbs for user data plus 64Kbs for signaling. Although ISDN is considered to be all digital, in reality PCM-encoded voice on a T1 line is a digital representation of an analog sample. ISDN still uses T1, T3, etc. lines to bundle multiple facilities on a common line, but the channels are interpreted differently. What is really fascinating is to see how ISDN achieves these rates via the data format from the U-interface. So the question is "which provides 1.544 Mbs of bandwidth, T1 or PRI?" is nebulous at best. Neither can provide 1.544 Mbs for exclusive use for user data. But both have a 1.544 Mbs clock-rate. MLC "NetEng" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 8qvlk4$vtv$[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:8qvlk4$vtv$[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Is there a difference between a PRI and a T-1? What has 23B + 1D? What one has 24B? The reason I ask is I have a practice question that asks, "what provides 1.544Mbs bandwidth." PRI and T-1 are answers, but only PRI is the correct answer (according to the test). What's the final answer **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: PRI vs T1
If you read what I wrote previously, you would not have jumped on what I said. Pri is logical T1 is physical. This is not that big of a topic. -Original Message- From: Brian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 3:47 PM To: Winchester, Derek S. Cc: 'NetEng'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: PRI vs T1 On Thu, 28 Sep 2000, Winchester, Derek S. wrote: Actually they are both one and the same. The coding in the way the T1 is setup at the CO makes it viable to be used as a T1. Both provides 1.544mbs bandwidth. The test is wrong unless it gears towards voice technology. They are not really one and the same. That is to say, if you have a T1 do you have a PRI? Maybe, but not necessarily. If you have a PRI do you have a T1? Yes (imho) because you have a DS1 data rate riding over copper. Derek S. Winchester Sr. WAN Engineer(CCNP) Data Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 410-953-4887 Cell: 443-562-3456 -Original Message- From: NetEng [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: PRI vs T1 Is there a difference between a PRI and a T-1? What has 23B + 1D? What one has 24B? The reason I ask is I have a practice question that asks, "what provides 1.544Mbs bandwidth." PRI and T-1 are answers, but only PRI is the correct answer (according to the test). What's the final answer **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Brian Feeny, CCNP, CCDA [EMAIL PROTECTED] Network Administrator ShreveNet Inc. (ASN 11881) **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PRI vs T1
Well... In North America a PRI is a T-1, but a T-1 is not necessarily a PRI. The T-1 will provide 1.536 Mbps in usable bandwidth, assuming it is using B8ZS linecoding... The PRI will offer 1.472 if it is configured as 23B+D (and the underlying T-1 is B8ZS)... Hope this helps some. -Ben Actually they are both one and the same. The coding in the way the T1 is setup at the CO makes it viable to be used as a T1. Both provides 1.544mbs bandwidth. The test is wrong unless it gears towards voice technology. Derek S. Winchester Sr. WAN Engineer(CCNP) Data Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 410-953-4887 Cell: 443-562-3456 -Original Message- From: NetEng [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: PRI vs T1 Is there a difference between a PRI and a T-1? What has 23B + 1D? What one has 24B? The reason I ask is I have a practice question that asks, "what provides 1.544Mbs bandwidth." PRI and T-1 are answers, but only PRI is the correct answer (according to the test). What's the final answer BN3 Hosted Customer Service Solution, basic service FREE. CRM enable your web site in 5 minutes! http://www.bn3.com **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: PRI vs T1
Actually they are both one and the same. The coding in the way the T1 is setup at the CO makes it viable to be used as a T1. Both provides 1.544mbs bandwidth. The test is wrong unless it gears towards voice technology. Derek S. Winchester Sr. WAN Engineer(CCNP) Data Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 410-953-4887 Cell: 443-562-3456 -Original Message- From: NetEng [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: PRI vs T1 Is there a difference between a PRI and a T-1? What has 23B + 1D? What one has 24B? The reason I ask is I have a practice question that asks, "what provides 1.544Mbs bandwidth." PRI and T-1 are answers, but only PRI is the correct answer (according to the test). What's the final answer **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
FW: PRI vs T1
T1 provides 1.536 MBs bandwidth so that's why PRI is the correct answer. -Original Message- From: NetEng [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 7:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: PRI vs T1 Is there a difference between a PRI and a T-1? What has 23B + 1D? What one has 24B? The reason I ask is I have a practice question that asks, "what provides 1.544Mbs bandwidth." PRI and T-1 are answers, but only PRI is the correct answer (according to the test). What's the final answer **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PRI vs T1
OK. I understand. Where is the additional 8k at? Is it the communication channel for a T-1? ""NetEng"" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 8qvlk4$vtv$[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:8qvlk4$vtv$[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Is there a difference between a PRI and a T-1? What has 23B + 1D? What one has 24B? The reason I ask is I have a practice question that asks, "what provides 1.544Mbs bandwidth." PRI and T-1 are answers, but only PRI is the correct answer (according to the test). What's the final answer **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: PRI vs T1
John: A T1 is rated at 1.554mbs. A PRI is physically a T1 different configuration makes it a PRI. Let me have your source that tells you otherwise and I will say you are misrepresenting the information. Derek S. Winchester Sr. WAN Engineer(CCNP) Data Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 410-953-4887 Cell: 443-562-3456 -Original Message- From: John Robinett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 11:21 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: FW: PRI vs T1 T1 provides 1.536 MBs bandwidth so that's why PRI is the correct answer. -Original Message- From: NetEng [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 7:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: PRI vs T1 Is there a difference between a PRI and a T-1? What has 23B + 1D? What one has 24B? The reason I ask is I have a practice question that asks, "what provides 1.544Mbs bandwidth." PRI and T-1 are answers, but only PRI is the correct answer (according to the test). What's the final answer **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: PRI vs T1
PRI has 23B+1D. T1 (also called a "channalized" T1) has 24 B-channels. Therefore, you have a 64k bandwidth difference. The book is correct because only T1 has 1.544MB (usable) bandwidth. Both use a T1 circuit. The difference can be important if you're using the circuit for dial-up modem users. If you have 48 modems in an AS5300 with two PRIs for the dial-up, only 46 modems can be used concurrently. If you have two T1s, all 48 modems can be used concurrently. Edward Watson, CCNA Consulting Engineer Info Avenue 3545 Centre Circle Drive Suite A Fort Mill, SC 29716 803.802.6507 (voice) 888.662.5835 pin-15309 (pager) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.infoave.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of NetEng Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: PRI vs T1 Is there a difference between a PRI and a T-1? What has 23B + 1D? What one has 24B? The reason I ask is I have a practice question that asks, "what provides 1.544Mbs bandwidth." PRI and T-1 are answers, but only PRI is the correct answer (according to the test). What's the final answer **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: PRI vs T1
And that is correct. T1 is basically a physical standard for a Pipe. PRI is basically a logical standard for a pipe. The framing and line coding are the same. Derek S. Winchester Sr. WAN Engineer(CCNP) Data Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 410-953-4887 Cell: 443-562-3456 -Original Message- From: Clay Stuckey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 11:57 AM To: Winchester, Derek S. Subject: Re: PRI vs T1 with my experience, a pri denotes primare rate interface referring to frame relay and is not specific to a particular pipe size. A T1 is a 1.5 Mb PRI. You can have a 64k PRI - Original Message - From: "Winchester, Derek S." [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'NetEng'" [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 11:19 AM Subject: RE: PRI vs T1 Actually they are both one and the same. The coding in the way the T1 is setup at the CO makes it viable to be used as a T1. Both provides 1.544mbs bandwidth. The test is wrong unless it gears towards voice technology. Derek S. Winchester Sr. WAN Engineer(CCNP) Data Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 410-953-4887 Cell: 443-562-3456 -Original Message- From: NetEng [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: PRI vs T1 Is there a difference between a PRI and a T-1? What has 23B + 1D? What one has 24B? The reason I ask is I have a practice question that asks, "what provides 1.544Mbs bandwidth." PRI and T-1 are answers, but only PRI is the correct answer (according to the test). What's the final answer **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PRI vs T1
A T1 frame is 193 bits. 192 bits (24X8) corresponds to data, and 1 bit is used for synchronization. There are 8000 frames per second. T1 was originally defined for PCM-encoded voice (8 bits per channel, but 1 bit for signaling when needed - "robbed-bit signaling"), with 24 voice channels per frame. It is actually unfortunate that "T-1" became a generic term for anything that has a 1.544 Mbs bit-rate, because T1, DS1, and ISDN PRI should be defined completely differently. T1 should have been reserved for 24-channel voice, DS1 for 24-channel data, and PRI for 23-channel +1D-channel (ISDN). Regardless T1 frame= 24(8-bit voice + signaling) channels + 1sync bit DS1 frame = 24(8-bit digital data) + 1 sync bit ISDN frame = 23(8-bit digital data) + 1(8-bit signaling) + 1 sync-bit(as logically represented on a T1 carrier) Therefore, 193X8000 = 1544000 clock-rate for T1 (DS1). 192X8000 = 1536000 data-bits/sec for T1 (DS1). 1X8000 = 8000 sync-bits/sec for T1 (DS1). Notice that there is no defined signaling channel. If multiple sites are sharing a T1(DS1) link then without some form of common signaling there would have to be in-band signaling, which would reduce the 8-bits per channel to 7-bits per channel (ever heard of "switched-56K"?). Fractional T1 would allow common signaling for a higher user data-rate. Therefore, assuming that some form of out-of-band signaling exists, T1(DS1) provides 1.536 Mbs of bandwidth, with 8Kbs lost due to sync bits. The question for PRI becomes even more confused. 23 B-channels + 1 D-channel + 1 sync-bit, but the D-channel is primarily used for common signaling. The question is if there are 23 B-channels at 64Kbs each, how much of the D-channel's bandwidth can be used for user data, if any (for example, by running X25 on top of the signaling channel)? This would imply that PRI would have only 23X64Kbs for user data plus 64Kbs for signaling. Although ISDN is considered to be all digital, in reality PCM-encoded voice on a T1 line is a digital representation of an analog sample. ISDN still uses T1, T3, etc. lines to bundle multiple facilities on a common line, but the channels are interpreted differently. What is really fascinating is to see how ISDN achieves these rates via the data format from the U-interface. So the question is "which provides 1.544 Mbs of bandwidth, T1 or PRI?" is nebulous at best. Neither can provide 1.544 Mbs for exclusive use for user data. But both have a 1.544 Mbs clock-rate. MLC "NetEng" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message 8qvlk4$vtv$[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:8qvlk4$vtv$[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Is there a difference between a PRI and a T-1? What has 23B + 1D? What one has 24B? The reason I ask is I have a practice question that asks, "what provides 1.544Mbs bandwidth." PRI and T-1 are answers, but only PRI is the correct answer (according to the test). What's the final answer **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PRI vs T1
Actually, the total bandwidth depends on the line coding and framing on a T1 circuit. b8zs with esf gives you 64k per channel use ami with sf (sometimes called d4), and you loose bandwidth to signaling, so you just get 56k per channel This is the way I learned anyway..I could always be wrong. It happens :) Richard A. Holland Voice/Data Integrator Telec, Inc. http://www.telecinc.com CCDA,CCNP,MCSE -Original Message- From: Edward Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: NetEng [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Cisco List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, September 28, 2000 12:20 PM Subject: RE: PRI vs T1 PRI has 23B+1D. T1 (also called a "channalized" T1) has 24 B-channels. Therefore, you have a 64k bandwidth difference. The book is correct because only T1 has 1.544MB (usable) bandwidth. Both use a T1 circuit. The difference can be important if you're using the circuit for dial-up modem users. If you have 48 modems in an AS5300 with two PRIs for the dial-up, only 46 modems can be used concurrently. If you have two T1s, all 48 modems can be used concurrently. Edward Watson, CCNA Consulting Engineer Info Avenue 3545 Centre Circle Drive Suite A Fort Mill, SC 29716 803.802.6507 (voice) 888.662.5835 pin-15309 (pager) [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.infoave.net -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of NetEng Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 10:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: PRI vs T1 Is there a difference between a PRI and a T-1? What has 23B + 1D? What one has 24B? The reason I ask is I have a practice question that asks, "what provides 1.544Mbs bandwidth." PRI and T-1 are answers, but only PRI is the correct answer (according to the test). What's the final answer **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] **NOTE: New CCNA/CCDA List has been formed. For more information go to http://www.groupstudy.com/list/Associates.html _ UPDATED Posting Guidelines: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/guide.html FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
