Re: Off Topic - CCIE LAB and NDA [7:34244]
On Jun 25, 7:08pm, Chuck Larrieu wrote: } } before I shut down for the evening, a few random thoughts on the CCIE Lab } and NDA. Inspired by several posts here of late from persons asking about } topology, IOS versions, or speaking of rumors about equipment changes. } } 1) It is unclear what really constitutes NDA. Caslow? The ECP1 class? NLI's } practice labs? Caslow's new prep class? Cisco's own ASET lab? All of these } could be considered violations of NDA in many ways, from topic content to } lab topology. Cisco's own ASET program used real but retired CCIE labs. It is very clear. Cisco's NDA only covers materials produced by Cisco. That means Caslow, ECP1, NLI, etc. aren't covered. If those people want protection, then they will have to produce their own NDA agreement and have you sign it. If any of them break Cisco's NDA in producing their material, then that is their problem, not yours. If you can show that you got something from a source other then Cisco then you are in the clear. As for the ASET program, I don't know. You would have to ask Cisco if the NDA applies to it. This one ranks as a maybe, which means that you better ask before revealing anything that isn't on the public web site. } 2) what is it Cisco really considers CCIE level skill? In the past, things Presumably whatever is covered the info at http://www.cisco.com/go/ccie/ . } like DecNet, Apollo, and Vines were core topics. Cisco has recently dropped } those, plus ATM LANE, presumably in response to market conditions. Which } leads one to ask - why token ring? The only real world token ring project I That is a very good question. Maybe it is because they thing it is still relevant. In that case, one would have to wonder why the 3900 has been discontinued. Maybe because it ties in nicely with dlsw. Of course, everything else that is even remotely related to SNA is gone from the lab. Another reason might be because removing it would mean replacing the token ring equipment in the lab with ethernet equipment and revising the labs accordingly. That takes more planning and costs more then simply dropping something that is strictly a matter of IOS configurations. Of course, it would probably be a good thing since having more ethernet switches would make it possible to have more complex and realistic switching scenarios. A network would have to be very small to have only one switch. Also, with only one switch spanning tree pretty much drops out of the picture, and on larger networks it is a major issue, so not having to deal with it on the CCIE lab means that the lab lacks realism. } have been involved with the past couple of years is ripping them out and } replacing them with ethernet. The apologia that there are still some major } token ring networks around is a bit lame. There are still some major DecNet } networks around, I'm sure. Until very recently ( and maybe they still are ), } a major utility company out this way was still running Vines. As was the U.S } Navy. The B.C. provincial government used Vines quite heavily until recently as well. I know very little about it. On the other hand, I still have networks using Appletalk and IPX as well as IP (sometines all three on the same wire). } 3) Is the CCIE a forward looking certification or not? Based on what I am } seeing in the marketplace, the advanced skill levels that one needs to meet } demand center around VPN, VoIP, wireless, security, and the underlying } infrastructure required to support these technologies. that means lots of } QoS, switching, L2-L3 interaction, ATM, giga-whatever, etc. I don't see much ATM. From what I see, ATM is goner. It's benefits are being replaced by things like QoS and MPLS. I don't think it keeps up with GigE much less 10GigE which is rapidly hitting the market. Breaking packets up into cels is a huge overhead. With things like GigE, you're better off just shipping the packet and being done with it. The only people that seem interested in it are telcos and the like that have already heavily invested in it. Advanced data people, i.e. CANARIE (see http://www.canarie.ca/ ) aren't at all interested in it. What you mention is probably too much to cover in a one day lab. Note that security (which includes VPN) has its own lab. } I would purely love to see discussed good focused discussion on core } competencies, core issues. But there is that awful specter of NDA that hangs } over all of our heads. NDA certainly shouldn't cause problems with discussing core competencies and issues. NDA prevents you from discussing exactly what is on the lab. It doesn't prevent you from discussing things like the intricate details of how OSPF or BGP behave in various situations. You just can't say what situations are presented by the lab. Besides, the idea is that you should be preparing for anything, not just what is on the lab. Especially, since what is on the lab can change at any time. }
RE: Off Topic - CCIE LAB and NDA [7:34244]
We could debate the TR vs. Ethernet thing 'till the cows come home Are there any new Token-Ring networks being deployed? Probably not. Unfortunately, there are still a TON of Token-Ring networks in use. Lately, I've seen these in financial settings mostly. I know of one brokerage company (who shall remain anonymous) that recently moved some legacy AS/400's from one location to another and had to update a bunch of DLSw peering statements (~200) so a customer contact database application still worked. The Financial industry (banks, brokerages, etc.) is notorious for using really old technology. Anyone ever see how ATM (Automatic Teller Machine) networks are built? There are a lot of them still running on analog multi-drop 4.8K lines. Some of the on-line brokerages send their orders via old bi-synch or x.25 technology rather than the various IP-based methods available (don't believe all the commercials you see to the contrary). What are the chances that a CCIE candidate will see Token-Ring in a production network? I guess it depends on the industry they work in. Up until a year ago CCIE candidates needed to know AppleTalk for the lab; I would bet that the percentage of engineers who have to support TR/DLSw/Bridging in their regular jobs is quite a bit higher than those who support AppleTalk networks. (sorry Priscilla :) Cisco may remove TR at some point just as they did with AT and DECNet, etc. but for now it's on the test so buck-up and learn it :) My $0.02 Ben -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Priscilla Oppenheimer Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Off Topic - CCIE LAB and NDA [7:34244] Token Ring is still on the written because Cisco doesn't seem to have the resources to update the test?? Is it still on the lab? (Or can't you tell me because of NDA?) ;-) I haven't run into a Token Ring shop that wasn't planning to update to Ethernet in a long time. But that planning to update can take years.. Priscilla At 12:32 AM 2/3/02, Chuck Larrieu wrote: before I shut down for the evening, a few random thoughts on the CCIE Lab and NDA. Inspired by several posts here of late from persons asking about topology, IOS versions, or speaking of rumors about equipment changes. 1) It is unclear what really constitutes NDA. Caslow? The ECP1 class? NLI's practice labs? Caslow's new prep class? Cisco's own ASET lab? All of these could be considered violations of NDA in many ways, from topic content to lab topology. Cisco's own ASET program used real but retired CCIE labs. 2) what is it Cisco really considers CCIE level skill? In the past, things like DecNet, Apollo, and Vines were core topics. Cisco has recently dropped those, plus ATM LANE, presumably in response to market conditions. Which leads one to ask - why token ring? The only real world token ring project I have been involved with the past couple of years is ripping them out and replacing them with ethernet. The apologia that there are still some major token ring networks around is a bit lame. There are still some major DecNet networks around, I'm sure. Until very recently ( and maybe they still are ), a major utility company out this way was still running Vines. As was the U.S Navy. 3) Is the CCIE a forward looking certification or not? Based on what I am seeing in the marketplace, the advanced skill levels that one needs to meet demand center around VPN, VoIP, wireless, security, and the underlying infrastructure required to support these technologies. that means lots of QoS, switching, L2-L3 interaction, ATM, giga-whatever, etc. I would purely love to see discussed good focused discussion on core competencies, core issues. But there is that awful specter of NDA that hangs over all of our heads. In a very strange way, NDA is kinda like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. We all know what's in the Lab. We all know what study materials are designed to model the Lab. But we don't dare speak the truth in front of the children ( those who haven't been yet ) for fear that some higher authority will trou nce on us if we do. I'm not sure if there is a real point to this message. Maybe what I want to say to all of those who keep asking about Lab equipment, Lab topology, Lab IOS versions, and the like, is that understanding of the core topics is the most important thing. If you have them down cold, the equipment and the topology will not matter. I'd like to comment on the rumor about changes in the equipment, but that damn NDA. Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=34333t=34244 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Off Topic - CCIE LAB and NDA [7:34244]
Chuck, There are still some very large Token Ring installations, although I don't know why. I would think it would be cheaper to phase it out during regular maintenance. As for forward looking? I don't think that's what the CCIE is for. CCIE means you know (or should know) what you are doing with current core technologies. Not new, popular, technologies. Although, there is the CCIE Security certification, which deals with newer stuff. People at Cisco have talked about a AVVID type CCIE certification, too. My opinion is CCIE is right for what people need. You can show your strengths by selecting the one matching your skills the best. Or for that matter, by selecting multiples. Besides, it provides Cisco with another revenue stream. Ken Chuck Larrieu 02/02/02 11:32PM [snip] 2) what is it Cisco really considers CCIE level skill? In the past, things like DecNet, Apollo, and Vines were core topics. Cisco has recently dropped those, plus ATM LANE, presumably in response to market conditions. Which leads one to ask - why token ring? The only real world token ring project I have been involved with the past couple of years is ripping them out and replacing them with ethernet. The apologia that there are still some major token ring networks around is a bit lame. There are still some major DecNet networks around, I'm sure. Until very recently ( and maybe they still are ), a major utility company out this way was still running Vines. As was the U.S Navy. 3) Is the CCIE a forward looking certification or not? Based on what I am seeing in the marketplace, the advanced skill levels that one needs to meet demand center around VPN, VoIP, wireless, security, and the underlying infrastructure required to support these technologies. that means lots of QoS, switching, L2-L3 interaction, ATM, giga-whatever, etc. [snip] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=34272t=34244 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Off Topic - CCIE LAB and NDA [7:34244]
Token Ring is still on the written because Cisco doesn't seem to have the resources to update the test?? Is it still on the lab? (Or can't you tell me because of NDA?) ;-) I haven't run into a Token Ring shop that wasn't planning to update to Ethernet in a long time. But that planning to update can take years.. Priscilla At 12:32 AM 2/3/02, Chuck Larrieu wrote: before I shut down for the evening, a few random thoughts on the CCIE Lab and NDA. Inspired by several posts here of late from persons asking about topology, IOS versions, or speaking of rumors about equipment changes. 1) It is unclear what really constitutes NDA. Caslow? The ECP1 class? NLI's practice labs? Caslow's new prep class? Cisco's own ASET lab? All of these could be considered violations of NDA in many ways, from topic content to lab topology. Cisco's own ASET program used real but retired CCIE labs. 2) what is it Cisco really considers CCIE level skill? In the past, things like DecNet, Apollo, and Vines were core topics. Cisco has recently dropped those, plus ATM LANE, presumably in response to market conditions. Which leads one to ask - why token ring? The only real world token ring project I have been involved with the past couple of years is ripping them out and replacing them with ethernet. The apologia that there are still some major token ring networks around is a bit lame. There are still some major DecNet networks around, I'm sure. Until very recently ( and maybe they still are ), a major utility company out this way was still running Vines. As was the U.S Navy. 3) Is the CCIE a forward looking certification or not? Based on what I am seeing in the marketplace, the advanced skill levels that one needs to meet demand center around VPN, VoIP, wireless, security, and the underlying infrastructure required to support these technologies. that means lots of QoS, switching, L2-L3 interaction, ATM, giga-whatever, etc. I would purely love to see discussed good focused discussion on core competencies, core issues. But there is that awful specter of NDA that hangs over all of our heads. In a very strange way, NDA is kinda like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. We all know what's in the Lab. We all know what study materials are designed to model the Lab. But we don't dare speak the truth in front of the children ( those who haven't been yet ) for fear that some higher authority will trou nce on us if we do. I'm not sure if there is a real point to this message. Maybe what I want to say to all of those who keep asking about Lab equipment, Lab topology, Lab IOS versions, and the like, is that understanding of the core topics is the most important thing. If you have them down cold, the equipment and the topology will not matter. I'd like to comment on the rumor about changes in the equipment, but that damn NDA. Priscilla Oppenheimer http://www.priscilla.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=34286t=34244 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Off Topic - CCIE LAB and NDA [7:34244]
Chuck, Thanks... for another great post. Maybe we could get Paul to make this standard reading for all who join the list, this way we avoid what we all fear...I dare not say the letters..for they spell fear themselves.. Of course the letter I refer to are NDA! This definitely is Food for Thought Nigel - Original Message - From: Chuck Larrieu To: Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 12:32 AM Subject: Off Topic - CCIE LAB and NDA [7:34244] before I shut down for the evening, a few random thoughts on the CCIE Lab and NDA. Inspired by several posts here of late from persons asking about topology, IOS versions, or speaking of rumors about equipment changes. 1) It is unclear what really constitutes NDA. Caslow? The ECP1 class? NLI's practice labs? Caslow's new prep class? Cisco's own ASET lab? All of these could be considered violations of NDA in many ways, from topic content to lab topology. Cisco's own ASET program used real but retired CCIE labs. 2) what is it Cisco really considers CCIE level skill? In the past, things like DecNet, Apollo, and Vines were core topics. Cisco has recently dropped those, plus ATM LANE, presumably in response to market conditions. Which leads one to ask - why token ring? The only real world token ring project I have been involved with the past couple of years is ripping them out and replacing them with ethernet. The apologia that there are still some major token ring networks around is a bit lame. There are still some major DecNet networks around, I'm sure. Until very recently ( and maybe they still are ), a major utility company out this way was still running Vines. As was the U.S Navy. 3) Is the CCIE a forward looking certification or not? Based on what I am seeing in the marketplace, the advanced skill levels that one needs to meet demand center around VPN, VoIP, wireless, security, and the underlying infrastructure required to support these technologies. that means lots of QoS, switching, L2-L3 interaction, ATM, giga-whatever, etc. I would purely love to see discussed good focused discussion on core competencies, core issues. But there is that awful specter of NDA that hangs over all of our heads. In a very strange way, NDA is kinda like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. We all know what's in the Lab. We all know what study materials are designed to model the Lab. But we don't dare speak the truth in front of the children ( those who haven't been yet ) for fear that some higher authority will trou nce on us if we do. I'm not sure if there is a real point to this message. Maybe what I want to say to all of those who keep asking about Lab equipment, Lab topology, Lab IOS versions, and the like, is that understanding of the core topics is the most important thing. If you have them down cold, the equipment and the topology will not matter. I'd like to comment on the rumor about changes in the equipment, but that damn NDA. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=34248t=34244 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
