Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On 30 June 2010 06:33, cageface milese...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 29, 12:54 pm, Chas Emerick cemer...@snowtide.com wrote: Indeed, there are many nontrivial personas that actively wish for a smaller (or at least not maximally large), more exclusive community. Only a fool would actively wish for a smaller community. Some of just recognize that selling a sports car to grandma might not be in her or our best interests. Make Clojure as easy as possible for the beginner as long as you don't make it less useful for the expert in the process. I swear, step by step Clojure is falling into the Common Lisp death spiral. As usual, too, it's the community at fault, not the creator. Are you *trying* to evoke the Smug Lisp Weenie vibe, cageface, or is this just a natural byproduct of being a burgeoning Smug Clojure Weenie? -- Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot. --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the don't be evil mantra. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On 30 June 2010 11:04, cageface milese...@gmail.com wrote: A language advocate is a salesman. A good salesman knows his product and his audience. A good salesman also doesn't come across as smugly self-satisfied and projecting a sense of superiority. Maybe you need a job in sales for a while. -- Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot. --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the don't be evil mantra. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On 30 June 2010 11:15, cageface milese...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 29, 6:25 pm, Michael Richter ttmrich...@gmail.com wrote: Are you *trying* to evoke the Smug Lisp Weenie vibe, cageface, or is this just a natural byproduct of being a burgeoning Smug Clojure Weenie? How many times do I have to say I'm in favor of making things as easy as possible for beginners before I'm exempt from this charge? You're exempt from this charge (I view it more as a trivially obvious observation myself) when you stop talking like a Smug Lisp Weenie. Hint: you're not coming across as a Smug Lisp Weenie because of the make it as easy as possible for beginners portion of your posts. -- Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot. --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the don't be evil mantra. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure's n00b attraction problem
On 29 June 2010 02:26, cageface milese...@gmail.com wrote: Stuart's book is a big help here but I'm afraid that Clojure is simply over the heads of a lot of noobs anyway. Ah. The Clojure community has already started down the road to Common Lisp-style, smugness-generated obscurity and disdain. Bravo! Well-played! Just a little suggestion: instead of thinking of Clojure users as elites who are over the heads of n00bs, perhaps you can figure out a way to get the n00bs to join the self-proclaimed elite. I mean really, if the elites are even *half* as intelligent as they claim to be, surely they can tackle this human relations problem with the same zeal and formidable intellect that they apply to software-related problems. Or is this too difficult? -- Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot. --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the don't be evil mantra. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: The end goal
On 23 March 2010 22:43, Joel Martin nos...@martintribe.org wrote: I'll know that this problem is solved when the Setup and Getting Started sections of the main Getting Started page resemble this: - For debian and Ubuntu users: apt-get install clojure For Fedora and CentOS users: yum install clojure For other distributions: wget XXX.tgz tar xvzf XXX.tgz ./XXX/install.sh source /etc/profile Now run the REPL: clj - This implies several things: - The clojure package is in the universe or equivalent repo for respective distros - The clojure package is a meta-package that pulls in all the basics needed for a useable clojure environment: - clojure-base (or whatever it is named as long as it's not 'clojure') - clojure-contrib - Java - documentation and examples - emacs config/example/integration - vim config/syntax highlight files, etc) - a default repl launcher with command line history and one that catches Ctrl-C - Clojure is a first class citizen on the system. It is installed to normal system locations, paths/classpaths are configured to work out of the box, the repl launcher is in /usr/bin (or at least in the system default path) Until Clojure is quite popular, distributions are unlikely to spend effort on packaging it, but Clojure won't become popular until it is packaged well for popular distributions (this is a typical problem actually). This means that the Clojure community will have to have people who know and are willing to endure the tedium of distro packaging. I don't know the process, but I'm willing to endure the tedium of packaging clojure for Ubuntu (and by extension Debian) if this is the kind of thing that can be a two-person job. -- Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot. --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the don't be evil mantra. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words REMOVE ME as the subject.
Re: The end goal
On 25 March 2010 00:05, Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan vu3...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:36 AM, Michael Richter ttmrich...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know the process, but I'm willing to endure the tedium of packaging clojure for Ubuntu (and by extension Debian) if this is the kind of thing that can be a two-person job. clojure and clojure-contrib are already in Debian (and so in Ubuntu). They're also dated versions. -- Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot. --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the don't be evil mantra. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words REMOVE ME as the subject.
Re: The end goal
On 25 March 2010 09:20, Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan vu3...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 6:38 AM, Michael Richter ttmrich...@gmail.com wrote: On 25 March 2010 00:05, Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan vu3...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:36 AM, Michael Richter ttmrich...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know the process, but I'm willing to endure the tedium of packaging clojure for Ubuntu (and by extension Debian) if this is the kind of thing that can be a two-person job. clojure and clojure-contrib are already in Debian (and so in Ubuntu). They're also dated versions. It has 1.1, which is the last stable release of clojure. $ dpkg -l clojure* Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold | Status=Not/Inst/Cfg-files/Unpacked/Failed-cfg/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend |/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) ||/ Name Version Description +++-=-=-== ii clojure 1.1.0+dfsg-1 a Lisp dialect for the JVM ii clojure-contrib 1.1.0-2 a user contributed set of libraries for clojure Weird. I'm showing 1.0 for those. mich...@isolde:~$ aptitude search clojure p clojure - a Lisp dialect for the JVM mich...@isolde:~$ aptitude show clojure Package: clojure New: yes State: not installed Version: 1.0.0+dfsg-1~jaunty1 Priority: optional Section: universe/devel Maintainer: Ubuntu MOTU Developers ubuntu-m...@lists.ubuntu.com Uncompressed Size: 1507k Depends: openjdk-6-jre | java2-runtime, libasm3-java Description: a Lisp dialect for the JVM Clojure is a dynamic programming language that targets the Java Virtual Machine. It is designed to be a general-purpose language, combining the approachability and interactive development of a scripting language with an efficient and robust infrastructure for multithreaded programming. Clojure is a compiled language - it compiles directly to JVM bytecode, yet remains completely dynamic. Every feature supported by Clojure is supported at runtime. Clojure provides easy access to the Java frameworks, with optional type hints and type inference, to ensure that calls to Java can avoid reflection. Clojure is a dialect of Lisp, and shares with Lisp the code-as-data philosophy and a powerful macro system. Clojure is predominantly a functional programming language, and features a rich set of immutable, persistent data structures. When mutable state is needed, Clojure offers a software transactional memory system and reactive Agent system that ensure clean, correct, multithreaded designs. Homepage: http://clojure.org -- Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot. --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the don't be evil mantra. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words REMOVE ME as the subject.
Re: Why I have chosen not to employ clojure
On 23 March 2010 00:13, Luc Préfontaine lprefonta...@softaddicts.ca wrote: I looked at these videos and they are a very good starting point. Then do we have a communication problem getting these things known ? Are these videos listed on the Getting started page ? Let's see if I can get this across without profanity. *VIDEOS ARE NOT DOCUMENTATION!* Yeah. That gets my most of my utter contempt of this recent trend of using videos to document software across without the profanity. If you want the full deal, throw the f-bomb in between each word and append a piece of profanity that ends with suckers. -- Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot. --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the don't be evil mantra. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words REMOVE ME as the subject.
Re: Why I have chosen not to employ clojure
On 23 March 2010 23:11, Brian Hurt bhur...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 11:07 AM, cageface milese...@gmail.com wrote: So perhaps it would be worthwhile to create, like jruby, a single zip/ tgz file containing clojure, clojure-contrib, and a reasonable bin/clj file that will find at least the core clojure jar files on its own? I don't see how you're going to actually deploy any clojure apps, or connect to a database, or really use any third party code at all without understanding how java's classpath works but at least you can get a REPL going. I comment that if you buy the Pragmatic Programmer's Clojure book, you get effectively this. Or you can just download the environment from the Pragmatic web sitehttp://www.pragprog.com/titles/shcloj/source_code . -- Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot. --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the don't be evil mantra. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words REMOVE ME as the subject.
Re: Why I have chosen not to employ clojure
To add the perspective of a true newbie to this dogpile, I'm going to have to say that the OP was just plain wrong. He made a major mistake -- wanting to compile clojure for himself on a platform that's not exactly friendly to Java development in the first place (Slackware, not Linux in general) -- and promptly blamed that on the wrong tool. Are there some barriers to entry for a newbie? Hell, yes. I, for example, can't stand EMACS (insert the great OS with crappy editor gag here), so the EMACS-centric nature of the tools currently available is definitely a downer, as is the community assumption that anybody who'd want to use clojure is OBVIOUSLY an EMACS user. That's OK, though. On the Java side the assumption is that everybody uses Eclipse and I hate that more than I hate EMACS. This hasn't stopped me from using Java when I've needed to. Another, slightly worse, problem is that Clojure is a moving target. I have the book *Programming Clojure* and have noted already that the language is changing out from underfoot. If I'm not careful I suspect that in a years' time what I know about Clojure will be out of date or quite possibly even flatly wrong. This is a more serious problem than I don't get JAR files like the OP had, especially since there doesn't seem to be a coherent resource anywhere describing the changes -- lots of work is being put into changes but not so much is being put into *communicating* those changes. (Insert the usual round of people utterly missing the point by linking to blog X here and blog Y here and blog Z here talking about the changes.) Again I don't think this is a major problem, though. Clojure is a young language and at this early stage in its development it's inevitable that there will be large changes (as theory hits the real world). Further, anybody who's been in the industry for as long as the OP has claimed to have been knows full well that documentation *always* lags behind development. I think it telling that he's pointing to mature (and, in the case of Rebol, beyond end-of-life) products to show how documentation should be done. It indicates to me that he's not got a lot of experience with new programming environments. TL;DR summary: this newbie thinks that yes, there are a few barriers to entry for new Clojure users but they're nowhere near as serious as the OP claims they are and are not even unusually bad for what is normal in this industry. -- Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot. --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the don't be evil mantra. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words REMOVE ME as the subject.
Re: Simple functional programming lexicon?
Also the Learn you a Haskell for Great Good tutorial is a pretty nice and light-hearted introduction to FP with Haskell which might also help you to understand some of the concepts better: http://learnyouahaskell.com/ If you don't mind taking a detour into the Haskell world, the book Real World Haskell also does a very good job of explaining key functional vocabulary using pragmatic examples (for the most part). I may never use Haskell in anger, but I found learning the language and reading this one book a very good exploration of the functional programming space. -- Perhaps people don't believe this, but throughout all of the discussions of entering China our focus has really been what's best for the Chinese people. It's not been about our revenue or profit or whatnot. --Sergey Brin, demonstrating the emptiness of the don't be evil mantra. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words REMOVE ME as the subject.
