Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[Didier]

All the uncomplicate libraries look really awesome. I'm going to give them 
a try out. I agree with you 100%, as a Community, we'll have to build more 
tools, write tutorials, add tests, etc., if we truly want Clojure to grow. 
Awesome job on those, I like their landing page, great description, good 
doc, very nice.

On Saturday, 25 March 2017 18:23:29 UTC-7, piast...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > doesn't drive me mad, but it does puzzle ans annoy 
> > me.  puzzle: why is it?  not sure, personally.
>
> I've seen this pattern at the last 2 startups that I've worked at: 
>
> The startup hires a bunch of people as they graduate from college. They 
> are hired to do data analysis, typically on some kind of financial data 
> (these are the types of startups I've been at). These newly hired people 
> have a background in math and statistics. They learned programming by 
> accident, incidentally. They learned Python, because that was what was 
> recommended in all of the college classes that they took. Then they 
> graduate and start work at the startup, and when they need to program, they 
> do it in Python, because that is what they know. They are learning a great 
> deal, very fast, about the business world, and financial analysis; they 
> don't feel they have the time to learn about a new programming language. 
>
> Meanwhile, from the perspective of the startup, the history of their 
> decisions went like this: they had an idea, so they contracted with a team 
> in India to build the prototype -- the founding team had no one technical 
> on staff, so they went with the cheapest option, which was PHP. So the crew 
> in India builds a flawed prototype in PHP. The basic idea for the startup 
> was good, and they make some money, so after a year they hire a CTO, who 
> immediately wants to scrap the prototype and build solid, high quality 
> software. The decision is made to move away from PHP. But what should they 
> move toward? They are already hiring a large number of data analysts who 
> know Python, so the most obvious option is to hire more Python programmers, 
> and standardize the company around Python. 
>
> I've seen this pattern more than once. 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, March 24, 2017 at 6:17:15 PM UTC-4, Gregg Reynolds wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 24, 2017 5:05 PM,  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score 
>> highly 
>> > on some of these metrics, what would those be?
>>
>> I'll be happy so long as Clojure is the popular choice for doing the 
>> things where it's advantages should matter: machine learning, AI, NLP, 
>> concurrent programming. 
>>
>> It drives me crazy that Python is doing so well in all of the areas where 
>> Clojure should be winning. There are such beautiful libraries for working 
>> with vectors and matrices with Clojure, which should obviously help with 
>> NLP, yet people use Python instead. Likewise, so much of machine learning 
>> should be done as work in parallel, and Clojure makes that easy, yet Python 
>> is preferred. Drives me crazy. 
>>
>>
>> doesn't drive me mad, but it does puzzle ans annoy me.  puzzle: why is 
>> it?  not sure, personally.
>>
>>
>> These last few years I've been at a lot of NLP startups, and the choice 
>> of Python makes me sad. 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 7:17:10 PM UTC-4, Luke Burton wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 22, 2017, at 2:26 PM, Gregg Reynolds  wrote:
>>>
>>> very interesting stuff, esp. the sociological bits:
>>>
>>> http://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017
>>>
>>> sadly, clojure does not even rank in popularity.  but it's number 1 in 
>>> pay worldwide.  o sweet vengeance!
>>>
>>>
>>> Some fun reading in there, Clojure features a couple of times. It would 
>>> be fun to watch for spikes in traffic to Clojure related resources, because 
>>> I'm sure that landing "most highly paid" will cause a few people to sit up 
>>> and take notice.
>>>
>>> This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score 
>>> highly on some of these metrics, what would those be? Or do none of them 
>>> adequately capture what is valued by the Clojure community?
>>>
>>> I think I'd claim that popularity is a terrible metric, even though it 
>>> can be gratifying to be popular. The fact that lots of people do a 
>>> particular thing doesn't mean that thing is inherently good, or worth 
>>> striving for. Some very popular things are bad lifestyle choices, like 
>>> smoking, a diet high in sugary foods, and writing JavaScript.
>>>
>>> Conversely some very, very good things can die from even the perception 
>>> of being unpopular. We often get people asking on the subreddit why they 
>>> find so many "abandoned" libraries in Clojure. The fact a piece of software 
>>> might have been written years ago, and still be perfectly usable, is such 
>>> an anomaly in more "popular" languages that people assume we've all curled 
>>> up and died. I recently had a 

Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[piastkrakow]

> doesn't drive me mad, but it does puzzle ans annoy 
> me.  puzzle: why is it?  not sure, personally.

I've seen this pattern at the last 2 startups that I've worked at: 

The startup hires a bunch of people as they graduate from college. They are 
hired to do data analysis, typically on some kind of financial data (these 
are the types of startups I've been at). These newly hired people have a 
background in math and statistics. They learned programming by accident, 
incidentally. They learned Python, because that was what was recommended in 
all of the college classes that they took. Then they graduate and start 
work at the startup, and when they need to program, they do it in Python, 
because that is what they know. They are learning a great deal, very fast, 
about the business world, and financial analysis; they don't feel they have 
the time to learn about a new programming language. 

Meanwhile, from the perspective of the startup, the history of their 
decisions went like this: they had an idea, so they contracted with a team 
in India to build the prototype -- the founding team had no one technical 
on staff, so they went with the cheapest option, which was PHP. So the crew 
in India builds a flawed prototype in PHP. The basic idea for the startup 
was good, and they make some money, so after a year they hire a CTO, who 
immediately wants to scrap the prototype and build solid, high quality 
software. The decision is made to move away from PHP. But what should they 
move toward? They are already hiring a large number of data analysts who 
know Python, so the most obvious option is to hire more Python programmers, 
and standardize the company around Python. 

I've seen this pattern more than once. 







On Friday, March 24, 2017 at 6:17:15 PM UTC-4, Gregg Reynolds wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mar 24, 2017 5:05 PM,  wrote:
>
>
>
> > This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score 
> highly 
> > on some of these metrics, what would those be?
>
> I'll be happy so long as Clojure is the popular choice for doing the 
> things where it's advantages should matter: machine learning, AI, NLP, 
> concurrent programming. 
>
> It drives me crazy that Python is doing so well in all of the areas where 
> Clojure should be winning. There are such beautiful libraries for working 
> with vectors and matrices with Clojure, which should obviously help with 
> NLP, yet people use Python instead. Likewise, so much of machine learning 
> should be done as work in parallel, and Clojure makes that easy, yet Python 
> is preferred. Drives me crazy. 
>
>
> doesn't drive me mad, but it does puzzle ans annoy me.  puzzle: why is it? 
>  not sure, personally.
>
>
> These last few years I've been at a lot of NLP startups, and the choice of 
> Python makes me sad. 
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 7:17:10 PM UTC-4, Luke Burton wrote:
>
>>
>> On Mar 22, 2017, at 2:26 PM, Gregg Reynolds  wrote:
>>
>> very interesting stuff, esp. the sociological bits:
>>
>> http://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017
>>
>> sadly, clojure does not even rank in popularity.  but it's number 1 in 
>> pay worldwide.  o sweet vengeance!
>>
>>
>> Some fun reading in there, Clojure features a couple of times. It would 
>> be fun to watch for spikes in traffic to Clojure related resources, because 
>> I'm sure that landing "most highly paid" will cause a few people to sit up 
>> and take notice.
>>
>> This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score 
>> highly on some of these metrics, what would those be? Or do none of them 
>> adequately capture what is valued by the Clojure community?
>>
>> I think I'd claim that popularity is a terrible metric, even though it 
>> can be gratifying to be popular. The fact that lots of people do a 
>> particular thing doesn't mean that thing is inherently good, or worth 
>> striving for. Some very popular things are bad lifestyle choices, like 
>> smoking, a diet high in sugary foods, and writing JavaScript.
>>
>> Conversely some very, very good things can die from even the perception 
>> of being unpopular. We often get people asking on the subreddit why they 
>> find so many "abandoned" libraries in Clojure. The fact a piece of software 
>> might have been written years ago, and still be perfectly usable, is such 
>> an anomaly in more "popular" languages that people assume we've all curled 
>> up and died. I recently had a project steered away from Clojure (suffice to 
>> say it was a very good fit, I thought) due to concerns around the 
>> availability of Clojure programmers in the long term. In Silicon Valley. 
>> Where you can throw a rock in the air and be certain it will hit a 
>> programmer on the way down.
>>
>> Anyway, my personal metric for Clojure success would be: "for projects 
>> where Clojure is an appropriate technical fit, how often are you able to 
>> choose Clojure?" It's a selfish metric but the higher it goes, 

Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[Dragan Djuric]

Sure, I agree. I'm just saying that whoever would like to see whatever,
they'll have to commit some work or money into making it happen, or change
their preferences to other stuff :). For example, if someone is a
programmer who would like to learn ML to be able to land a better job, and
this employability is the main criterium, Python is the obvious choice. If
that programmer does not like Python and prefer Clojure, he or she has the
option to commit some work into making Clojure's ecosystem better, or to
learn to love Python. Likewise, if a company prefers Clojure, they can
open-source their libraries, or fund some work on Clojure open-source...

Many other small contributions can be made, even the simplest things like
writing getting starting guides, or improving the documentation and tests
of existing tools, but vast majority of people don't do even that. All in
all, if everyone just wait for the perfect solution to appear out of
nowhere, I'm afraid they will wait for a long time...

On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 9:23 PM, craig worrall <
craig.worr...@transacumen.com> wrote:

>
> Yes, if you have a 'product' perspective, but others will have a service
> provider perspective and would like to see employers committed to Clojure
> and looking to engage with practitioners.+
>
>
> On Sunday, March 26, 2017 at 4:49:45 AM UTC+11, Dragan Djuric wrote:
>>
>>
>> Isn't it advantageous in some sense to have access to stuff that your
>> competition doesn't have?
>>
>> On Friday, March 24, 2017 at 11:05:24 PM UTC+1, piast...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score
>>> highly
>>> > on some of these metrics, what would those be?
>>>
>>> I'll be happy so long as Clojure is the popular choice for doing the
>>> things where it's advantages should matter: machine learning, AI, NLP,
>>> concurrent programming.
>>>
>>> It drives me crazy that Python is doing so well in all of the areas
>>> where Clojure should be winning. There are such beautiful libraries for
>>> working with vectors and matrices with Clojure, which should obviously help
>>> with NLP, yet people use Python instead. Likewise, so much of machine
>>> learning should be done as work in parallel, and Clojure makes that easy,
>>> yet Python is preferred. Drives me crazy.
>>>
>>> These last few years I've been at a lot of NLP startups, and the choice
>>> of Python makes me sad.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 7:17:10 PM UTC-4, Luke Burton wrote:


 On Mar 22, 2017, at 2:26 PM, Gregg Reynolds  wrote:

 very interesting stuff, esp. the sociological bits:

 http://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017

 sadly, clojure does not even rank in popularity.  but it's number 1 in
 pay worldwide.  o sweet vengeance!


 Some fun reading in there, Clojure features a couple of times. It would
 be fun to watch for spikes in traffic to Clojure related resources, because
 I'm sure that landing "most highly paid" will cause a few people to sit up
 and take notice.

 This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score
 highly on some of these metrics, what would those be? Or do none of them
 adequately capture what is valued by the Clojure community?

 I think I'd claim that popularity is a terrible metric, even though it
 can be gratifying to be popular. The fact that lots of people do a
 particular thing doesn't mean that thing is inherently good, or worth
 striving for. Some very popular things are bad lifestyle choices, like
 smoking, a diet high in sugary foods, and writing JavaScript.

 Conversely some very, very good things can die from even the perception
 of being unpopular. We often get people asking on the subreddit why they
 find so many "abandoned" libraries in Clojure. The fact a piece of software
 might have been written years ago, and still be perfectly usable, is such
 an anomaly in more "popular" languages that people assume we've all curled
 up and died. I recently had a project steered away from Clojure (suffice to
 say it was a very good fit, I thought) due to concerns around the
 availability of Clojure programmers in the long term. In Silicon Valley.
 Where you can throw a rock in the air and be certain it will hit a
 programmer on the way down.

 Anyway, my personal metric for Clojure success would be: "for projects
 where Clojure is an appropriate technical fit, how often are you able to
 choose Clojure?" It's a selfish metric but the higher it goes, the happier
 I am ;)

 Luke.

>>> --
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Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[craig worrall]

Yes, if you have a 'product' perspective, but others will have a service 
provider perspective and would like to see employers committed to Clojure 
and looking to engage with practitioners.+

On Sunday, March 26, 2017 at 4:49:45 AM UTC+11, Dragan Djuric wrote:
>
>
> Isn't it advantageous in some sense to have access to stuff that your 
> competition doesn't have?
>
> On Friday, March 24, 2017 at 11:05:24 PM UTC+1, piast...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score 
>> highly 
>> > on some of these metrics, what would those be?
>>
>> I'll be happy so long as Clojure is the popular choice for doing the 
>> things where it's advantages should matter: machine learning, AI, NLP, 
>> concurrent programming. 
>>
>> It drives me crazy that Python is doing so well in all of the areas where 
>> Clojure should be winning. There are such beautiful libraries for working 
>> with vectors and matrices with Clojure, which should obviously help with 
>> NLP, yet people use Python instead. Likewise, so much of machine learning 
>> should be done as work in parallel, and Clojure makes that easy, yet Python 
>> is preferred. Drives me crazy. 
>>
>> These last few years I've been at a lot of NLP startups, and the choice 
>> of Python makes me sad. 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 7:17:10 PM UTC-4, Luke Burton wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 22, 2017, at 2:26 PM, Gregg Reynolds  wrote:
>>>
>>> very interesting stuff, esp. the sociological bits:
>>>
>>> http://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017
>>>
>>> sadly, clojure does not even rank in popularity.  but it's number 1 in 
>>> pay worldwide.  o sweet vengeance!
>>>
>>>
>>> Some fun reading in there, Clojure features a couple of times. It would 
>>> be fun to watch for spikes in traffic to Clojure related resources, because 
>>> I'm sure that landing "most highly paid" will cause a few people to sit up 
>>> and take notice.
>>>
>>> This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score 
>>> highly on some of these metrics, what would those be? Or do none of them 
>>> adequately capture what is valued by the Clojure community?
>>>
>>> I think I'd claim that popularity is a terrible metric, even though it 
>>> can be gratifying to be popular. The fact that lots of people do a 
>>> particular thing doesn't mean that thing is inherently good, or worth 
>>> striving for. Some very popular things are bad lifestyle choices, like 
>>> smoking, a diet high in sugary foods, and writing JavaScript.
>>>
>>> Conversely some very, very good things can die from even the perception 
>>> of being unpopular. We often get people asking on the subreddit why they 
>>> find so many "abandoned" libraries in Clojure. The fact a piece of software 
>>> might have been written years ago, and still be perfectly usable, is such 
>>> an anomaly in more "popular" languages that people assume we've all curled 
>>> up and died. I recently had a project steered away from Clojure (suffice to 
>>> say it was a very good fit, I thought) due to concerns around the 
>>> availability of Clojure programmers in the long term. In Silicon Valley. 
>>> Where you can throw a rock in the air and be certain it will hit a 
>>> programmer on the way down.
>>>
>>> Anyway, my personal metric for Clojure success would be: "for projects 
>>> where Clojure is an appropriate technical fit, how often are you able to 
>>> choose Clojure?" It's a selfish metric but the higher it goes, the happier 
>>> I am ;)
>>>
>>> Luke.
>>>
>>

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Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[Dragan Djuric]

Clojure offers full support for GPU computing. See 
http://clojurecl.uncomplicate.org, as far as I know, Python doesn't have so 
well integrated GPU programming. It also supports full high-performance CPU 
acceleration. Also, although Neanderthal 
(http://neanderthal.uncomplicate.org) is not yet on par feature-wise with 
what Python offers with Numpy and other libraries, it is gaining features 
rapidly (major update comes next week), and what's there is, IMHO, much 
better than what Python offers. I'll also create ClojureCUDA, and integrate 
that into Neanderthal. cuDNN Clojure library is then relatively 
straightforward to create. 

Lots of stuff is there, and even more coming up, but what can you do... we 
have the best features no one knows about :)

On Saturday, March 25, 2017 at 7:23:40 PM UTC+1, Didier wrote:
>
> Is Clojure so great at AI, ML, NLP and concurrent programming?
>
> It seems to me the libraries are lacking. I also know there's a race for 
> performance, and it looks like CPU parallelization isn't even fast enough, 
> so distributed or GPU based solutions are being built, which I'm also not 
> sure Clojure offers much support for.
>

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Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[Didier]

Is Clojure so great at AI, ML, NLP and concurrent programming?

It seems to me the libraries are lacking. I also know there's a race for 
performance, and it looks like CPU parallelization isn't even fast enough, so 
distributed or GPU based solutions are being built, which I'm also not sure 
Clojure offers much support for.

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Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[Dragan Djuric]

But why is it bad news if your competition don't use the best tool 
available (if it is true, of course)? I consider it a competitive advantage.

On the other hand, it is perfectly clear why everyone uses Python for ML 
and (almost) nobody uses Clojure:
1) All serious literature is in Python. There is almost no literature for 
Clojure. No, Pact books do not count as good literature in my opinion.
2) There are numerous turnkey solutions in Python. There are only partial 
solutions in Clojure. It doesn't matter whether Clojure is better or not; 
most people, naively in my opinion, want to become ML masters in a weekend 
or so, and Python gives them that promise.
3) I'm sure other people in the thread can come up with more reasons...

What is the solution, then? Well, other than creating and releasing good 
software and writing about it, I am not sure. To return to the starting 
point: is it so important? Isn't it advantageous in some sense to have 
access to stuff that your competition doesn't have?

On Friday, March 24, 2017 at 11:05:24 PM UTC+1, piast...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score 
> highly 
> > on some of these metrics, what would those be?
>
> I'll be happy so long as Clojure is the popular choice for doing the 
> things where it's advantages should matter: machine learning, AI, NLP, 
> concurrent programming. 
>
> It drives me crazy that Python is doing so well in all of the areas where 
> Clojure should be winning. There are such beautiful libraries for working 
> with vectors and matrices with Clojure, which should obviously help with 
> NLP, yet people use Python instead. Likewise, so much of machine learning 
> should be done as work in parallel, and Clojure makes that easy, yet Python 
> is preferred. Drives me crazy. 
>
> These last few years I've been at a lot of NLP startups, and the choice of 
> Python makes me sad. 
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 7:17:10 PM UTC-4, Luke Burton wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mar 22, 2017, at 2:26 PM, Gregg Reynolds  wrote:
>>
>> very interesting stuff, esp. the sociological bits:
>>
>> http://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017
>>
>> sadly, clojure does not even rank in popularity.  but it's number 1 in 
>> pay worldwide.  o sweet vengeance!
>>
>>
>> Some fun reading in there, Clojure features a couple of times. It would 
>> be fun to watch for spikes in traffic to Clojure related resources, because 
>> I'm sure that landing "most highly paid" will cause a few people to sit up 
>> and take notice.
>>
>> This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score 
>> highly on some of these metrics, what would those be? Or do none of them 
>> adequately capture what is valued by the Clojure community?
>>
>> I think I'd claim that popularity is a terrible metric, even though it 
>> can be gratifying to be popular. The fact that lots of people do a 
>> particular thing doesn't mean that thing is inherently good, or worth 
>> striving for. Some very popular things are bad lifestyle choices, like 
>> smoking, a diet high in sugary foods, and writing JavaScript.
>>
>> Conversely some very, very good things can die from even the perception 
>> of being unpopular. We often get people asking on the subreddit why they 
>> find so many "abandoned" libraries in Clojure. The fact a piece of software 
>> might have been written years ago, and still be perfectly usable, is such 
>> an anomaly in more "popular" languages that people assume we've all curled 
>> up and died. I recently had a project steered away from Clojure (suffice to 
>> say it was a very good fit, I thought) due to concerns around the 
>> availability of Clojure programmers in the long term. In Silicon Valley. 
>> Where you can throw a rock in the air and be certain it will hit a 
>> programmer on the way down.
>>
>> Anyway, my personal metric for Clojure success would be: "for projects 
>> where Clojure is an appropriate technical fit, how often are you able to 
>> choose Clojure?" It's a selfish metric but the higher it goes, the happier 
>> I am ;)
>>
>> Luke.
>>
>

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Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[Joe Python]

Scipy/Numpy had a head start in this area long before others should up in 
the Open source space.

On Friday, March 24, 2017 at 10:46:18 PM UTC-4, Mars0i wrote:
>
>
>
> On Friday, March 24, 2017 at 5:17:15 PM UTC-5, Gregg Reynolds wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 24, 2017 5:05 PM,  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score 
>> highly 
>> > on some of these metrics, what would those be?
>>
>> I'll be happy so long as Clojure is the popular choice for doing the 
>> things where it's advantages should matter: machine learning, AI, NLP, 
>> concurrent programming. 
>>
>> It drives me crazy that Python is doing so well in all of the areas where 
>> Clojure should be winning. There are such beautiful libraries for working 
>> with vectors and matrices with Clojure, which should obviously help with 
>> NLP, yet people use Python instead. Likewise, so much of machine learning 
>> should be done as work in parallel, and Clojure makes that easy, yet Python 
>> is preferred. Drives me crazy. 
>>
>>
>> doesn't drive me mad, but it does puzzle ans annoy me.  puzzle: why is 
>> it?  not sure, personally.
>>
>>
>> These last few years I've been at a lot of NLP startups, and the choice 
>> of Python makes me sad. 
>>
>>
> I thought that Python had a big head start.  Is that incorrect?
>
> OO is still dominant, overall, and FP requires a big transition.  If 
> you're a Java programmer, which is a more natural choice? Python or 
> Clojure?  Sure, Clojure is more closely tied to the JVM, but you don't 
> write JVM code.
>

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Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[Mars0i]

On Friday, March 24, 2017 at 5:17:15 PM UTC-5, Gregg Reynolds wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mar 24, 2017 5:05 PM,  wrote:
>
>
>
> > This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score 
> highly 
> > on some of these metrics, what would those be?
>
> I'll be happy so long as Clojure is the popular choice for doing the 
> things where it's advantages should matter: machine learning, AI, NLP, 
> concurrent programming. 
>
> It drives me crazy that Python is doing so well in all of the areas where 
> Clojure should be winning. There are such beautiful libraries for working 
> with vectors and matrices with Clojure, which should obviously help with 
> NLP, yet people use Python instead. Likewise, so much of machine learning 
> should be done as work in parallel, and Clojure makes that easy, yet Python 
> is preferred. Drives me crazy. 
>
>
> doesn't drive me mad, but it does puzzle ans annoy me.  puzzle: why is it? 
>  not sure, personally.
>
>
> These last few years I've been at a lot of NLP startups, and the choice of 
> Python makes me sad. 
>
>
I thought that Python had a big head start.  Is that incorrect?

OO is still dominant, overall, and FP requires a big transition.  If you're 
a Java programmer, which is a more natural choice? Python or Clojure?  
Sure, Clojure is more closely tied to the JVM, but you don't write JVM code.

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Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[Gregg Reynolds]

On Mar 24, 2017 5:05 PM,  wrote:



> This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score
highly
> on some of these metrics, what would those be?

I'll be happy so long as Clojure is the popular choice for doing the things
where it's advantages should matter: machine learning, AI, NLP, concurrent
programming.

It drives me crazy that Python is doing so well in all of the areas where
Clojure should be winning. There are such beautiful libraries for working
with vectors and matrices with Clojure, which should obviously help with
NLP, yet people use Python instead. Likewise, so much of machine learning
should be done as work in parallel, and Clojure makes that easy, yet Python
is preferred. Drives me crazy.


doesn't drive me mad, but it does puzzle ans annoy me.  puzzle: why is it?
 not sure, personally.


These last few years I've been at a lot of NLP startups, and the choice of
Python makes me sad.




On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 7:17:10 PM UTC-4, Luke Burton wrote:

>
> On Mar 22, 2017, at 2:26 PM, Gregg Reynolds  wrote:
>
> very interesting stuff, esp. the sociological bits:
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017
>
> sadly, clojure does not even rank in popularity.  but it's number 1 in pay
> worldwide.  o sweet vengeance!
>
>
> Some fun reading in there, Clojure features a couple of times. It would be
> fun to watch for spikes in traffic to Clojure related resources, because
> I'm sure that landing "most highly paid" will cause a few people to sit up
> and take notice.
>
> This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score
> highly on some of these metrics, what would those be? Or do none of them
> adequately capture what is valued by the Clojure community?
>
> I think I'd claim that popularity is a terrible metric, even though it can
> be gratifying to be popular. The fact that lots of people do a particular
> thing doesn't mean that thing is inherently good, or worth striving for.
> Some very popular things are bad lifestyle choices, like smoking, a diet
> high in sugary foods, and writing JavaScript.
>
> Conversely some very, very good things can die from even the perception of
> being unpopular. We often get people asking on the subreddit why they find
> so many "abandoned" libraries in Clojure. The fact a piece of software
> might have been written years ago, and still be perfectly usable, is such
> an anomaly in more "popular" languages that people assume we've all curled
> up and died. I recently had a project steered away from Clojure (suffice to
> say it was a very good fit, I thought) due to concerns around the
> availability of Clojure programmers in the long term. In Silicon Valley.
> Where you can throw a rock in the air and be certain it will hit a
> programmer on the way down.
>
> Anyway, my personal metric for Clojure success would be: "for projects
> where Clojure is an appropriate technical fit, how often are you able to
> choose Clojure?" It's a selfish metric but the higher it goes, the happier
> I am ;)
>
> Luke.
>
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Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[piastkrakow]

> This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score 
highly 
> on some of these metrics, what would those be?

I'll be happy so long as Clojure is the popular choice for doing the things 
where it's advantages should matter: machine learning, AI, NLP, concurrent 
programming. 

It drives me crazy that Python is doing so well in all of the areas where 
Clojure should be winning. There are such beautiful libraries for working 
with vectors and matrices with Clojure, which should obviously help with 
NLP, yet people use Python instead. Likewise, so much of machine learning 
should be done as work in parallel, and Clojure makes that easy, yet Python 
is preferred. Drives me crazy. 

These last few years I've been at a lot of NLP startups, and the choice of 
Python makes me sad. 




On Wednesday, March 22, 2017 at 7:17:10 PM UTC-4, Luke Burton wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 22, 2017, at 2:26 PM, Gregg Reynolds  > wrote:
>
> very interesting stuff, esp. the sociological bits:
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017
>
> sadly, clojure does not even rank in popularity.  but it's number 1 in pay 
> worldwide.  o sweet vengeance!
>
>
> Some fun reading in there, Clojure features a couple of times. It would be 
> fun to watch for spikes in traffic to Clojure related resources, because 
> I'm sure that landing "most highly paid" will cause a few people to sit up 
> and take notice.
>
> This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score 
> highly on some of these metrics, what would those be? Or do none of them 
> adequately capture what is valued by the Clojure community?
>
> I think I'd claim that popularity is a terrible metric, even though it can 
> be gratifying to be popular. The fact that lots of people do a particular 
> thing doesn't mean that thing is inherently good, or worth striving for. 
> Some very popular things are bad lifestyle choices, like smoking, a diet 
> high in sugary foods, and writing JavaScript.
>
> Conversely some very, very good things can die from even the perception of 
> being unpopular. We often get people asking on the subreddit why they find 
> so many "abandoned" libraries in Clojure. The fact a piece of software 
> might have been written years ago, and still be perfectly usable, is such 
> an anomaly in more "popular" languages that people assume we've all curled 
> up and died. I recently had a project steered away from Clojure (suffice to 
> say it was a very good fit, I thought) due to concerns around the 
> availability of Clojure programmers in the long term. In Silicon Valley. 
> Where you can throw a rock in the air and be certain it will hit a 
> programmer on the way down.
>
> Anyway, my personal metric for Clojure success would be: "for projects 
> where Clojure is an appropriate technical fit, how often are you able to 
> choose Clojure?" It's a selfish metric but the higher it goes, the happier 
> I am ;)
>
> Luke.
>

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Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[Mars0i]

On Thursday, March 23, 2017 at 7:49:40 PM UTC-5, Mars0i wrote:
>
> The highest-paid win suggests there's greater demand than supply, so 
> people who aren't comfortable with FP or lisp may be forced to code in 
> Clojure, or try to for the sake of a job without doing it right, and are 
> unhappy as a result.


There are better explanations in the #off-topic channel of the Clojurians 
group in slack. 

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Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[Mars0i]

The highest-paid win suggests there's greater demand than supply, so people who 
aren't comfortable with FP or lisp may be forced to code in Clojure, or try to 
for the sake of a job without doing it right, and are unhappy as a result.

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Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[Didier]

As I understand it, the Most Love metric asks people who work with the language 
how happy they are with it.

So I find this metric very interesting. Clojure foes rank well in this, but it 
falls below a lot of others. I'd like to know why?

Why doesn't everyone who uses Clojure loves it?

I can see either because it's not everyone's cup of tea. Like a love it or you 
don't situation. Or it actually has pain points, and as a community we should 
try to address those. 

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Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[Gregg Reynolds]

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Luke Burton  wrote:

>
> On Mar 22, 2017, at 2:26 PM, Gregg Reynolds  wrote:
>
> very interesting stuff, esp. the sociological bits:
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017
>
> sadly, clojure does not even rank in popularity.  but it's number 1 in pay
> worldwide.  o sweet vengeance!
>
>
> Some fun reading in there, Clojure features a couple of times. It would be
> fun to watch for spikes in traffic to Clojure related resources, because
> I'm sure that landing "most highly paid" will cause a few people to sit up
> and take notice.
>
> This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score
> highly on some of these metrics, what would those be? Or do none of them
> adequately capture what is valued by the Clojure community?
>
> I think I'd claim that popularity is a terrible metric, even though it can
> be gratifying to be popular. The fact that lots of people do a particular
> thing doesn't mean that thing is inherently good, or worth striving for.
> Some very popular things are bad lifestyle choices, like smoking, a diet
> high in sugary foods, and writing JavaScript.
>

Yeah, well, I can't vouch for the methodology.  Smalltalk is number 2 in
Most Loved? Who knew?  (Hint: it's a very self-selecting sample).

Personally I don't think the language popularity stuff is very meaningful.
More interesting to a greybeard like me is e.g. "years since learning to
code", where "20 or more years" is wy ahead of anything else, but is
listed at the bottom and not even mentioned in the commentary!  Ditto for
"years coding professionally, where "20 or more years" is in fifth place,
but is listed at the bottom; and "years coded professionally in the past,
where "20 or more years" wins by a mile, but again is not mentioned in the
commentary.  haha.  Remember that age and treachery beats youth and talent
any day of the week! ;)

g

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Re: off-topic: stackof developer survey

[Luke Burton]

> On Mar 22, 2017, at 2:26 PM, Gregg Reynolds  wrote:
> 
> very interesting stuff, esp. the sociological bits:
> 
> http://stackoverflow.com/insights/survey/2017 
> 
> 
> sadly, clojure does not even rank in popularity.  but it's number 1 in pay 
> worldwide.  o sweet vengeance!

Some fun reading in there, Clojure features a couple of times. It would be fun 
to watch for spikes in traffic to Clojure related resources, because I'm sure 
that landing "most highly paid" will cause a few people to sit up and take 
notice.

This did get me thinking though. If the community *did* want to score highly on 
some of these metrics, what would those be? Or do none of them adequately 
capture what is valued by the Clojure community?

I think I'd claim that popularity is a terrible metric, even though it can be 
gratifying to be popular. The fact that lots of people do a particular thing 
doesn't mean that thing is inherently good, or worth striving for. Some very 
popular things are bad lifestyle choices, like smoking, a diet high in sugary 
foods, and writing JavaScript.

Conversely some very, very good things can die from even the perception of 
being unpopular. We often get people asking on the subreddit why they find so 
many "abandoned" libraries in Clojure. The fact a piece of software might have 
been written years ago, and still be perfectly usable, is such an anomaly in 
more "popular" languages that people assume we've all curled up and died. I 
recently had a project steered away from Clojure (suffice to say it was a very 
good fit, I thought) due to concerns around the availability of Clojure 
programmers in the long term. In Silicon Valley. Where you can throw a rock in 
the air and be certain it will hit a programmer on the way down.

Anyway, my personal metric for Clojure success would be: "for projects where 
Clojure is an appropriate technical fit, how often are you able to choose 
Clojure?" It's a selfish metric but the higher it goes, the happier I am ;)

Luke.

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