Re: Should I switch to Clojure after 3 years of learning another full stack ?

[Paul Gowder]

Another thing worth thinking about is that Cojure(script) is great for pure 
front-end applications ("single page applications").  The reagent library is a 
scarily magical way of just abstracting away the dom, and figwheel is a scarily 
effective build tool. This template is a convenient way to get started: 
https://github.com/reagent-project/reagent-frontend-template.  I actually built 
a static site using reagent once, hard-coding the content into the 
clojurescript for shits and giggles gowder.io), but that's pretty stupid. :-)

If you don't need to do anything heavy server-side, reagent might be a good 
starting point, and then no need to think about things like webservers and 
databases and routing. 

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Re: Should I switch to Clojure after 3 years of learning another full stack ?

[Gregg Reynolds]

On Oct 13, 2016 12:59 AM, "Mars0i"  wrote:
>
> Others have meatier, more detailed answers.  Here's one more factor that
might matter:
>
> Clojure makes me happy.  I'm happier programming in Clojure than in other
languages that are also very suitable for my projects.  I enjoy myself
more, and it's easier.  I even prefer to use Clojure when I could probably
do a project more quickly using something else.  It's not the only language
that can make me feel that way, but it's the best one for me right now.
You may not feel the same way after you get comfortable with Clojure--but
you might.
>

+1

fill in the blank:  "it's just *fun* to program in ."  for me at least
Clojure is the only word that makes that a sentence. and I've programmed in
a lot of languages.

g
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Re: Should I switch to Clojure after 3 years of learning another full stack ?

[Mars0i]

Others have meatier, more detailed answers.  Here's one more factor that 
might matter: 

Clojure makes me happy.  I'm happier programming in Clojure than in other 
languages that are also very suitable for my projects.  I enjoy myself 
more, and it's easier.  I even prefer to use Clojure when I could probably 
do a project more quickly using something else.  It's not the only language 
that can make me feel that way, but it's the best one for me right now.  
You may not feel the same way after you get comfortable with Clojure--but 
you might.

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Re: Should I switch to Clojure after 3 years of learning another full stack ?

[James Gatannah]

On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 4:39:43 PM UTC-5, Xman wrote:
>
> It's been many years of postponing learning programming, because I 
> considered the popular languages of that time not right.
>

It's been my experience that there are no "right languages." They all have 
major flaws. No matter what, when you really dig into
one, you'll hit "I really wish I could..." itches.

Any lisp, by its nature, makes those itches easier to scratch. But there's 
always something. That's part of what makes this such a fascinating and 
exciting field of knowledge.

 

> It took me nearly 3 years to learn and build a website using another stack 
> (I wont advertise here), 
>

Congratulations!

Having built something puts you far ahead of most people. It doesn't matter 
how you did it. The fact that you did is something to be proud of.


 

> and without having much previous knowledge in programming.
>

I think the old Nike slogan fits well here: just do it.
 

>  I have not deployed the website yet.
> I would like to know if Clojure is a great option to make websites ?
>

I think that others have addressed this particular question very well.

I think your subject question was more interesting (though others have also 
done a great job addressing it):

> Should I switch to Clojure after 3 years of learning another full stack ?

This is the sort of question that you will always have to answer for 
yourself.

Are there good reasons for learning clojure?

Absolutely.

Are there good reasons for learning any other technology that's also been 
mentioned in this thread?

Absolutely.

Are any of those reasons good enough for you to dedicate your valuable time 
to learning them?

No one but you can make that decision. Or, really, even know what your 
pros/cons are.

I think it's probably safe for me to recommend that you shouldn't translate 
your existing
site/app to a new technology until/unless the current one has proved that 
it really won't
work. And, even then, there's a good chance you could find someone to help 
you figure
out how to make it work well in whatever language you started with.

(It would probably be stronger/lighter/faster/more ductile/less tough if 
you'd written it it clojure
in the first place, but working code beats "probably" every time).
 

>
> I found out that there are new features on the web that Clojure is better 
> for, but I don't use those features in the present.
>

Are you sure about that?

There are a lot of really nice features that have been built into clojure. 
Most useful programs in other languages have to find ways to work around 
them.

If your website works fine, then there probably isn't a good reason to 
switch it over.

You can do that while also learning clojure. It's perfectly fine (and, 
honestly, pretty good) to be multi-lingual.

If that's your cup of tea, of course. If learning one programming language 
was all you care about, that's perfectly fine!

But, honestly, it sounds to me like you're poking around at the idea of 
learning another. Which is pretty
cool too. Actually, it's a lot of fun. If you're into that sort of thing, 
it can turn into a good career.

But maybe you're past the whole "career" thing and just looking for ways to 
amuse yourself as an alternative to
doing crossword puzzles now that you're retired.

If you're interested in the craft of programming, clojure really is a good 
one to learn.

Then again, so are languages like python and ruby and C# (and a slew of 
others).

Take your pick.

These days, C and javascript are the 900 pound gorillas. If you want to get 
into nitty-gritty, or you're doing something very simple,
they're good choices. I personally think there's more black voodoo magic 
there than craft, but black voodoo magic has its place
too.


 

> When I choose to learn a language I decide by myself, and after listening 
> to a video talk, it gives me reasons to think that its better.
>

I hate to go to absolutes, but there's very rarely a blanket "better" in 
any aspect of engineering. Listening to a talk can
be great, but...that's honestly just the marketing pitch.

This gets into personal motivations, so it doesn't really have any place in 
a technical discussion list. But that's really what
the talks are all about.

Do the ideas resonate enough with you to convince you to dedicate the time 
that it takes to learn a language?

It took years for clojure to convince me to make a serious investment in it.

Maybe it never will for you. Again: there's nothing wrong with that.

 

> I want to learn the language and "frameworks" (or how to create the 
> architecture) much quicker than previous attempt.
>

This is up to you.

Odds are, it should be faster.

But that depends on how much difference you're trying to manage.

Personally, I've never been able to make sense out of perl.

I know people who use it to do thin

Re: Should I switch to Clojure after 3 years of learning another full stack ?

[Matt Mitchell]

My first Clojure "app" was a CLI utility that pulled data from a SQL 
database, mapped records into another form, and pushed them into a search 
engine app. It took me about 3 weeks to do that with no lisp experience at 
all, and I was super rusty on Java at that point. It was "hard", but I 
really only remember that as a very enjoyable learning experience. I don't 
think Clojure is any more difficult than language X, Y or Z really. From 
what I've seen from other developers, it's mostly a matter of getting over 
the parens/syntax (seriously). Once that's over, it's like any other 
language - it'll all click - "variables", conditionals, functions, state 
etc.. Just get started, don't hesitate. Peel back the layers one at a time 
and enjoy the learning experience. After a while, you might even find 
yourself preferring Clojure (those parens are there for a really good 
reason), and then eventually, every other language will look inferior (just 
kidding, maybe).

More to your question though - Clojure can definitely be used to build 
websites. A minimalist toolset would be (think Sinatra or Express) Ring and 
Bidi or Compojure. Throw in some common Ring middleware (static assets, 
sessions, file-type info) and you're getting somewhere. If you want 
something like Rails, I'm sure others here could recommend something.

- Matt

On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 5:39:43 PM UTC-4, Xman wrote:
>
> It's been many years of postponing learning programming, because I 
> considered the popular languages of that time not right.
> It took me nearly 3 years to learn and build a website using another stack 
> (I wont advertise here), 
> and without having much previous knowledge in programming.  I have not 
> deployed the website yet. 
> I would like to know if Clojure is a great option to make websites ?
>
> I found out that there are new features on the web that Clojure is better 
> for, but I don't use those features in the present. 
> When I choose to learn a language I decide by myself, and after listening 
> to a video talk, it gives me reasons to think that its better.
> I want to learn the language and "frameworks" (or how to create the 
> architecture) much quicker than previous attempt.
>
> I'd like to know if its possible to do that in less than 6 months or if I 
> should stay with the framework I know ?
>

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Re: Should I switch to Clojure after 3 years of learning another full stack ?

[Nando Breiter]

> I want to learn the language and "frameworks" (or how to create the
> architecture) much quicker than previous attempt.
>

I recently came across an excellent course:
https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn that I think can be
very helpful for someone trying to learn something efficiently, especially
on their own. Essentially, the course explains how the brain learns things,
and unless you have picked up a knack for this along the way, it's not all
all obvious.

In a nutshell, our brains have only 4 "slots" of working memory. As
programmers, whether learning something new or developing a program in a
language we know, we often have a need to significantly overload our
working memory - 4 slots isn't enough. In the course, that process is
called "chunking" - grouping bits of knowledge together to free up working
memory so that you can continue to learn, or think about something complex.
In the end, learning Clojure efficiently will boil down to how efficiently
you can chunk and store in long term memory how to program in Clojure.

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Re: Should I switch to Clojure after 3 years of learning another full stack ?

[TR NS]

On Thursday, October 6, 2016 at 5:39:43 PM UTC-4, Xman wrote:
>
> It's been many years of postponing learning programming, because I 
> considered the popular languages of that time not right.
> It took me nearly 3 years to learn and build a website using another stack 
> (I wont advertise here), 
>

I am going to take a guess that it was either PHP or Ruby on Rails. Don't 
consider it advertising but it would help to know where you are coming 
from. We all started somewhere.
 

> and without having much previous knowledge in programming.  I have not 
> deployed the website yet. 
> I would like to know if Clojure is a great option to make websites ?
>

Sure. But there are a lot options people consider "great" these days.
 

>
> I found out that there are new features on the web that Clojure is better 
> for, but I don't use those features in the present. 
> When I choose to learn a language I decide by myself, and after listening 
> to a video talk, it gives me reasons to think that its better.
> I want to learn the language and "frameworks" (or how to create the 
> architecture) much quicker than previous attempt.
>
> I'd like to know if its possible to do that in less than 6 months or if I 
> should stay with the framework I know ?
>

Depends. Lisp may be a bit of a learning curve for you, not to mention it's 
JVM underpinnings. There are a variety of good complete options out there 
today, Node.js based options like Angler and Meteor, and ReactJS has blown 
up, also Elm is getting a lot talk these days. Then there is the 
Elixir/Phoenix option which is looking pretty sweet, especially if you 
expect heavy loads. Having said all that, Clojure is pretty impressive too. 
So it has more to do with what you want to achieve and the reason you would 
like to learn it then with any specific platform. IMO.


 

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Re: Should I switch to Clojure after 3 years of learning another full stack ?

[Sean Corfield]

On 10/6/16, 2:05 PM, "'Xman' via Clojure"  wrote:

> I would like to know if Clojure is a great option to make websites ?

 

Yes and no. There are a lot of folks here building web _applications_ with 
Clojure and according to the annual informal “State of Clojure” survey, web 
development is the more common use for Clojure. See my comments on “frameworks” 
below…

 

> I found out that there are new features on the web that Clojure is

> better for, but I don't use those features in the present. 

 

Well, immutability, the abstractions, and the ease with which you can write 
code that can safely use multiple threads are applicable to even fairly basic 
web applications. I think you’d find that if you were using Clojure, you would 
just naturally use those features.

 

> I want to learn the language and "frameworks" (or how to create the 
> architecture)

 

…many technologies used for web sites leverage frameworks. Clojure’s approach 
is generally more focused on composing libraries to construct a solution. One 
of the things that a lot of folks coming to Clojure find confusing or strange 
is that there really are no actively maintained “frameworks” in the sense of 
Django or Rails or Drupal etc.

 

There’s also really no “standard” architecture for a Clojure web application. 
At its core, it’s almost certain to have Ring (or http-kit), maybe Compojure, 
some “standard” middleware (a concept not always familiar to folks from other 
technologies), and then the rest will be built to suit whatever they prefer… 
much will depend on what persistent storage technology they decide to use, 
whether they are comfortable with an asynchronous programming model, and so on…

 

> I'd like to know if its possible to do that in less than 6 months

 

Possible? Yes, it should be. If you have just a few years of programming 
experience, you likely won’t have any deeply ingrained habits that would make 
learning Clojure more difficult (as can be the case sometimes for folks deeply 
steeped in OOP thinking). It’s hard to say how proficient you’d be after six 
months. Some folks take to FP (functional programming) a lot quicker than 
others, regardless of their background. But, overall, Clojure itself is a 
relatively small, simple language. The idioms can be harder to internalize.

 

> or if I should stay with the framework I know ?

 

That depends on why you are learning programming in the first place. If you 
want to become a better programmer in general, then learning a functional 
programming language such as Clojure is going to be a good thing, even if you 
ultimately decide to stick with the other technology. The “Pragmatic 
Programmer” book suggests attempting to learn a new programming language every 
year – that may not be practical for everyone but it’s certainly a good 
“stretch goal” for self-improvement.

 

Most people who learn Clojure seem to really enjoy using it. Hoping to 
experience that “joy” is a good reason to try it out.

 

Sean Corfield -- (970) FOR-SEAN -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood

 

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Re: Should I switch to Clojure after 3 years of learning another full stack ?

[Gregg Reynolds]

the

On Oct 6, 2016 4:39 PM, "'Xman' via Clojure" 
wrote:
>
> It's been many years of postponing learning programming, because I
considered the popular languages of that time not right.
> It took me nearly 3 years to learn and build a website using another
stack (I wont advertise here),
> and without having much previous knowledge in programming.  I have not
deployed the website yet.
> I would like to know if Clojure is a great option to make websites ?
>

yes.

> I found out that there are new features on the web that Clojure is better
for, but I don't use those features in the present.
> When I choose to learn a language I decide by myself, and after listening
to a video talk, it gives me reasons to think that its better.
> I want to learn the language and "frameworks" (or how to create the
architecture) much quicker than previous attempt.
>
> I'd like to know if its possible to do that in less than 6 months or if I
should stay with the framework I know ?
>

welcome to clojure. but, this is a question that cannot be answered in any
meaningful way.  of course it is possible, but  I dare say that that's not
your real question.  you want to know if it is worth the effort, no?  if
you have an open mind and are capable of learning (not always the case)
then yes, it is worth the effort.   then again, since you have not said
what "framework" you're talking about, maybe no.

how are we to know what "much quicker than previous attempt" is supposed to
mean?

gregg

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Should I switch to Clojure after 3 years of learning another full stack ?

['Xman' via Clojure]

It's been many years of postponing learning programming, because I 
considered the popular languages of that time not right.
It took me nearly 3 years to learn and build a website using another stack 
(I wont advertise here), 
and without having much previous knowledge in programming.  I have not 
deployed the website yet. 
I would like to know if Clojure is a great option to make websites ?

I found out that there are new features on the web that Clojure is better 
for, but I don't use those features in the present. 
When I choose to learn a language I decide by myself, and after listening 
to a video talk, it gives me reasons to think that its better.
I want to learn the language and "frameworks" (or how to create the 
architecture) much quicker than previous attempt.

I'd like to know if its possible to do that in less than 6 months or if I 
should stay with the framework I know ?

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