Re: Proposal: for F26, move Cloud Base Image to Server WG

2016-08-28 Thread Matthew Miller 
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 05:03:21PM -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
> In this case, it's a combination of routing issue and bandwidth; the routing
> issue here is that the people who watch the `anaconda` bugzilla entries don't
> currently intersect much with Atomic Host.  In general, please add me to
> CC for any critical bugs you find.
> Or alternatively, raise any blockers on the cloud@ or atomic-devel@ lists.

As I understand it, AutoCloud creates these issues:
https://pagure.io/atomic-images/issues

We should probably subscribe one or both of those lists to those
tickets.

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Re: Proposal: for F26, move Cloud Base Image to Server WG

2016-08-26 Thread Adam Williamson 
On Fri, 2016-08-26 at 17:03 -0400, Colin Walters wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016, at 04:45 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I will note that I filed
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1331864 - an unavoidable
> > crash when installing from the Atomic installer image - in *April*, and
> > no-one appears to care that the Atomic installer image has been broken
> > since then.
> 
> In this case, it's a combination of routing issue and bandwidth; the routing
> issue here is that the people who watch the `anaconda` bugzilla entries don't
> currently intersect much with Atomic Host.  In general, please add me to
> CC for any critical bugs you find.
> 
> Or alternatively, raise any blockers on the cloud@ or atomic-devel@ lists.

I CC'ed Adam Miller, figuring he'd CC anyone else who was interested,
but OK, I'll add you in future. I think I have mentioned it a couple
times before in IRC and stuff, but never mind.
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Re: Proposal: for F26, move Cloud Base Image to Server WG

2016-08-26 Thread Stephen John Smoogen 
On 26 August 2016 at 16:45, Adam Williamson  wrote:
> On Fri, 2016-08-26 at 14:27 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
>> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 04:43:50PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
>> >
>> > There are a lot of images being produced and I have no idea if they're
>> > really needed. That a release blocking image (cloud base qcow2) nearly
>> > caused F25 alpha to slip because it was busted at least suggests it
>> > probably shouldn't be release blocking anymore. FWIW, cloud base qcow2
>> > now gets grub2 in lieu of extlinux as the work around for the
>> > breakage.
>>
>> Puts us back at 231M for the qcow2, instead of 195M for F24. Ah well;
>> at least it boots.
>>
>> Rather than having the Cloud Base Image — or its Server-based successor
>> — be blocking, I'd like to it as see an updated, automatically-tested
>> two-week image. Ideally, we'd have a solid one on release day, but if
>> we don't for some reason, it'd be less of a crisis.
>>
>> We also, obviously, have a process breakdown with what to do with
>> failure reports from autocloud.
>
> Right. We *have* the automated testing, but automated testing is no use
> if no-one looks at the results and fixes the bugs. This is not really a
> QA responsibility (even though I seem to be the one who always winds up
> doing it for Server and Workstation; I do not have time to do it for
> Cloud). Of course, in an 'ideal' world we'd have a more CI-ish setup
> where changes that cause the tests to start failing get rejected, and
> people are working on that - but the fact that we don't have it already
> is not an excuse to ignore the test systems we already have in place.
>
> I will note that I filed
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1331864 - an unavoidable
> crash when installing from the Atomic installer image - in *April*, and
> no-one appears to care that the Atomic installer image has been broken
> since then. This bug still shows up like clockwork in every F25 and
> Rawhide compose tested in openQA. It makes me wonder why I put in the
> effort to implement the openQA testing, if no-one cares when it finds a
> bug.

I feel your pain on this but think it is also a good thing. Maybe
no-one cares  about this target but we didn't have data on it
until you put in a tool which could measure how much people actually
care. Look at these tools as part of the cost people need to pay for
having various targets of the distribution. People say they want stuff
as long as it is free to them even if they never use it.. but when a
cost is actually associated with the thing they are a lot pickier
about what they want to spend on.




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Re: Proposal: for F26, move Cloud Base Image to Server WG

2016-08-26 Thread Colin Walters 
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016, at 04:45 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:

> I will note that I filed
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1331864 - an unavoidable
> crash when installing from the Atomic installer image - in *April*, and
> no-one appears to care that the Atomic installer image has been broken
> since then.

In this case, it's a combination of routing issue and bandwidth; the routing
issue here is that the people who watch the `anaconda` bugzilla entries don't
currently intersect much with Atomic Host.  In general, please add me to
CC for any critical bugs you find.

Or alternatively, raise any blockers on the cloud@ or atomic-devel@ lists.
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Re: Proposal: for F26, move Cloud Base Image to Server WG

2016-08-26 Thread Adam Williamson 
On Fri, 2016-08-26 at 14:27 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 04:43:50PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> > 
> > There are a lot of images being produced and I have no idea if they're
> > really needed. That a release blocking image (cloud base qcow2) nearly
> > caused F25 alpha to slip because it was busted at least suggests it
> > probably shouldn't be release blocking anymore. FWIW, cloud base qcow2
> > now gets grub2 in lieu of extlinux as the work around for the
> > breakage.
> 
> Puts us back at 231M for the qcow2, instead of 195M for F24. Ah well;
> at least it boots.
> 
> Rather than having the Cloud Base Image — or its Server-based successor
> — be blocking, I'd like to it as see an updated, automatically-tested
> two-week image. Ideally, we'd have a solid one on release day, but if
> we don't for some reason, it'd be less of a crisis.
> 
> We also, obviously, have a process breakdown with what to do with
> failure reports from autocloud.

Right. We *have* the automated testing, but automated testing is no use
if no-one looks at the results and fixes the bugs. This is not really a
QA responsibility (even though I seem to be the one who always winds up
doing it for Server and Workstation; I do not have time to do it for
Cloud). Of course, in an 'ideal' world we'd have a more CI-ish setup
where changes that cause the tests to start failing get rejected, and
people are working on that - but the fact that we don't have it already
is not an excuse to ignore the test systems we already have in place.

I will note that I filed
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1331864 - an unavoidable
crash when installing from the Atomic installer image - in *April*, and
no-one appears to care that the Atomic installer image has been broken
since then. This bug still shows up like clockwork in every F25 and
Rawhide compose tested in openQA. It makes me wonder why I put in the
effort to implement the openQA testing, if no-one cares when it finds a
bug.
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Re: Proposal: for F26, move Cloud Base Image to Server WG

2016-08-26 Thread Matthew Miller 
On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 04:43:50PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> There are a lot of images being produced and I have no idea if they're
> really needed. That a release blocking image (cloud base qcow2) nearly
> caused F25 alpha to slip because it was busted at least suggests it
> probably shouldn't be release blocking anymore. FWIW, cloud base qcow2
> now gets grub2 in lieu of extlinux as the work around for the
> breakage.

Puts us back at 231M for the qcow2, instead of 195M for F24. Ah well;
at least it boots.

Rather than having the Cloud Base Image — or its Server-based successor
— be blocking, I'd like to it as see an updated, automatically-tested
two-week image. Ideally, we'd have a solid one on release day, but if
we don't for some reason, it'd be less of a crisis.

We also, obviously, have a process breakdown with what to do with
failure reports from autocloud.


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Fedora Project Leader
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Re: Proposal: for F26, move Cloud Base Image to Server WG

2016-08-25 Thread Chris Murphy 
On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Stephen John Smoogen  wrote:
> On 25 August 2016 at 13:34, Matthew Miller  wrote:
>>
>> We've talked about this for a while, but let's make it formal. The plan
>> is to transition from Cloud as a Fedora Edition to Something Container
>> Clustery (see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/ProjectFAO).
>>
>> But, we still need cloud as a _deploy target_. The FAO-container-thing
>> will continue to have cloud image deploy targets (as well as bare
>> metal). I think it makes sense to _also_ have Fedora Server as a cloud
>> deploy target.
>>
>
> Could we make sure that whatever targets we have are actually getting
> tested? The fact that autocloud has said it was broken for months but
> the cloud sig wasn't looking or fixing says that before we get to step
> 2, we need to say 'is anyone more than 2 people really interested?' It
> should be ok to say 'no we aren't.' without people diving into the
> fire trying to rescue something that unless it was on fire they
> wouldn't have helped.

There are a lot of images being produced and I have no idea if they're
really needed. That a release blocking image (cloud base qcow2) nearly
caused F25 alpha to slip because it was busted at least suggests it
probably shouldn't be release blocking anymore. FWIW, cloud base qcow2
now gets grub2 in lieu of extlinux as the work around for the
breakage.


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Proposal: for F26, move Cloud Base Image to Server WG

2016-08-25 Thread Matthew Miller 

We've talked about this for a while, but let's make it formal. The plan
is to transition from Cloud as a Fedora Edition to Something Container
Clustery (see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives/ProjectFAO).

But, we still need cloud as a _deploy target_. The FAO-container-thing
will continue to have cloud image deploy targets (as well as bare
metal). I think it makes sense to _also_ have Fedora Server as a cloud
deploy target.

This could possibly be both a Fedora Server Minimal Cloud Image and
Fedora Server Batteries Included Image — but that'd be up to Server WG,
I think.

Overall, I'm proposing:

   1. Dissolve Cloud WG (See below; don't panic)

   2. Form new Atomic WG or FAO WG (name to be bikeshedded)
  (a lot of overlap in membership with current Cloud WG, of course!)

   3. _Keep_ Cloud SIG as a gathering point around cloud technology and
  covering shared underlying technology (fedimg, koji cloud image
  production, autocloud). Think of this as analogous in some ways
  to something like the ARM SIG.

   4. Change https://getfedora.org/cloud/ to
  https://getfedora.org/atomic/ or https://getfedora.org/fao/

   5. Create new http://cloud.fedoraproject.org/ in the same style as
  https://arm.fedoraproject.org/

   6. New Atomic/FAO WG produces Whatever New Deliverable (starting
  with Two Week Atomic)

   7. Cloud Base Image becomes base (uh, see what I did there?) for new
  Fedora Server cloud image (or images).

   8. Vagrant image _probably_ the same — or maybe becomes its own
  thing?

   9. ???

   10. Profit!

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