Re: Stus-List halyard stoppers

[Chuck S via CnC-List]

Some people thicken the line where it passes through the clutch in one of two 
ways. If the core is hollow, it's easy to pull a short length of small diameter 
line into it. If the core is solid, it's a little harder to can add a cover. 
The jib halyard clutch area is small if all of your sails are full hoist, and 
three to six feet should be enough. You need to allow for reefing the main so a 
longer line or cover is required on the main halyard, but that can be measured 
on the boat by hoisting the sail and marking the line. 

The main halyard and jib halyard present the highest loads and should be routed 
the most direct route possible to the right side of the winch drum, while other 
lines like the pole lift, cunningham, vang, spin halyards, etc, can take the 
bendier paths. This little detail helps reduce friction and allows me to hand 
hoist my main. 

Chuck 
Resolute 
1990 C&C 34R 
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md 

- Original Message -

From: "Josh Muckley via CnC-List"  
To: "C&C List" , "Bradley Lumgair"  
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 9:48:01 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List halyard stoppers 



My 1989 37+ has lewmar triples. The design hasn't changed much so find a 
picture on google and see if you can remember well enough what yours look like. 
Mine have no trouble with 5/16ths up to 1/2 inch. 

Josh Muckley 
S/V Sea Hawk 
Solomons, MD 
On Mar 21, 2015 9:42 PM, "Bradley Lumgair via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> wrote: 


Replacing the original 7/16 halyards on our 1985 C&C 33 MKII. Got a GOOD price 
on some 3/8 Warpspeed from W.M. Does anyone know what brand/size of halyard 
clutches C&C used in '85? There is a set of double Schaefer clutches mounted 
outboard of the original triples, either side of the companionway, pictures I 
have aren't good enough to identify them and the boat is 3 hrs from here. 
Thanks 
Brad 
Sarnia ON 
1985 C&C 33 "Pulse" 

Sent, miraculously through cyberspace, 
from my iPad! 

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Re: Stus-List halyard stoppers

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

My 1989 37+ has lewmar triples.  The design hasn't changed much so find a
picture on google and see if you can remember well enough what yours look
like.  Mine have no trouble with 5/16ths up to 1/2 inch.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
Solomons, MD
On Mar 21, 2015 9:42 PM, "Bradley Lumgair via CnC-List" <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Replacing the original 7/16 halyards on our 1985 C&C 33 MKII. Got a GOOD
> price on some 3/8 Warpspeed from W.M. Does anyone know what brand/size of
> halyard clutches  C&C used in '85? There is a set of double Schaefer
> clutches mounted outboard of the original triples, either side of the
> companionway, pictures I have aren't good enough to identify them and the
> boat is 3 hrs from here.
> Thanks
> Brad
> Sarnia ON
> 1985 C&C 33 "Pulse"
>
> Sent, miraculously through cyberspace,
> from my iPad!
>
> ___
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> bottom of page at:
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Stus-List halyard stoppers

[Bradley Lumgair via CnC-List]

Replacing the original 7/16 halyards on our 1985 C&C 33 MKII. Got a GOOD price 
on some 3/8 Warpspeed from W.M. Does anyone know what brand/size of halyard 
clutches  C&C used in '85? There is a set of double Schaefer clutches mounted 
outboard of the original triples, either side of the companionway, pictures I 
have aren't good enough to identify them and the boat is 3 hrs from here.
Thanks
Brad
Sarnia ON
1985 C&C 33 "Pulse"

Sent, miraculously through cyberspace, 
from my iPad!

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Re: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

[Ron Casciato via CnC-List]

Chuck et al.

 

According to my reading of the rating adjustments in this link
http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping/handicap_adjustments   ; Whisker
pole may only be = to J dimension.  The rest of this tome makes my head hurt
often.

 

However, we have figured out how to get the 38MKII to rate at 145 in a mixed
fleet using only jib and mainin all of the Wednesday series races. In
pursuit races the "cruising rating" is 142..(Cruising rating of 132 + 10).  

 

The discussion this past year over the ratings of boats with bow sprits and
the oversized ASYMS has been a painful exercise in not satisfying
anybody...so the topic is shelved until sometime in the futurethe rating
adjustments here work for our C&C's .  The issue has been for boats like the
older J35 which would have been wacked to match a new J109absurd

 

Ron

Impromptu

C&C 38MKIIC..'77

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Chuck S
via CnC-List
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 11:20 AM
To: CNC boat owners, cnc-list
Subject: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

 

Ron, Gary, Rick,  

Curious.  Does your RC allow adjustable whisker poles longer than J length
to be used during a race in your areas?


Chuck
Resolute
1990 C&C 34R
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md

 

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Re: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Don't the rules call for the inboard end of the whisker pole to be attached
at the mast?

Dwight Veinot
C&C 35 MKII, *Alianna*
Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
d.ve...@bellaliant.net


On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Gary Nylander via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

>  The three local RC's I race with have no specific rules about whisker
> poles, thus rely on PHRF definition which says it cannot be longer than J
> without penalty. An adjustable pole must be marked at J.
>
> Gary Nylander
> 30-1
> St. Michaels Maryland
>
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Chuck S via CnC-List 
> *To:* CNC boat owners, cnc-list 
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2015 11:19 AM
> *Subject:* Stus-List Racing w whisker poles
>
>  Ron, Gary, Rick,
> Curious.  Does your RC allow adjustable whisker poles *longer than J
> length* to be used during a race in your areas?
>
> Chuck
> Resolute
> 1990 C&C 34R
> Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md
>
>  --
>
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Re: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

The three local RC's I race with have no specific rules about whisker poles, 
thus rely on PHRF definition which says it cannot be longer than J without 
penalty. An adjustable pole must be marked at J.

Gary Nylander
30-1
St. Michaels Maryland

  - Original Message - 
  From: Chuck S via CnC-List 
  To: CNC boat owners, cnc-list 
  Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 11:19 AM
  Subject: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles


  Ron, Gary, Rick,  
  Curious.  Does your RC allow adjustable whisker poles longer than J length to 
be used during a race in your areas?


  Chuck
  Resolute
  1990 C&C 34R
  Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md





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Re: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

[D.J. Platt via CnC-List]

PHRF is inherently unfair.  Some boats are relatively better in some conditions 
than others.   My boat, for example,  will sail consistently better than it's 
rating in heavy air.  Having said that, on lake Ontario the differential 
between spi and non spi boats is 20 seconds per mile.  Forget about the 
unfairness of the process and go and have fun.  

Cheers

david
Wanderer
C&C32


From: Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List 
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 12:41 PM
To: Chuck S ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles


Unfortunately we're limited to J.  It's OK for DDW, but doesn't allow much 
reaching up in the lighter airs.  Allowing 80% of the genoa's LP, as someone 
mentioned earlier as the most efficient pole length, would be better.  If I did 
my math right, that translates to a pole length of 124% of J for the 155% genny 
that most use.
That would also be a major improvement for beam reaching.  Normally the clew of 
the genny will start to curl in on the 155% on a beam reach, so having the pole 
to extend the curl back to smooth flow would be more efficient.
Ron
Wild Cheri
C&C 30-1
STL






From: Chuck S via CnC-List 
To: "CNC boat owners, cnc-list"  
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 10:19 AM
Subject: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles



Ron, Gary, Rick,  
Curious.  Does your RC allow adjustable whisker poles longer than J length to 
be used during a race in your areas?


Chuck
Resolute
1990 C&C 34R
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md 
















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Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet

[William Walker via CnC-List]

Rick,
   I am no expert, but talking with Lake Michigan PHRF folks in past as Regatta 
Chair at our yacht club I am certain others have given good advice: it can't be 
done fairly.  Wind angle, speed course length etc etc all impact.  It is hard 
enough over 12 race season to feel like phrf is fair sometimes. 
  Stick with two fleets.  Fewer hard feelings.  
Bill Walker
Pentwater Mi
Evening Star
CnC 36___

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Re: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

[Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List]

Unfortunately we're limited to J.  It's OK for DDW, but doesn't allow much 
reaching up in the lighter airs.  Allowing 80% of the genoa's LP, as someone 
mentioned earlier as the most efficient pole length, would be better.  If I did 
my math right, that translates to a pole length of 124% of J for the 155% genny 
that most use.That would also be a major improvement for beam reaching.  
Normally the clew of the genny will start to curl in on the 155% on a beam 
reach, so having the pole to extend the curl back to smooth flow would be more 
efficient.RonWild CheriC&C 30-1STL

  From: Chuck S via CnC-List 
 To: "CNC boat owners, cnc-list"  
 Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 10:19 AM
 Subject: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles
   
Ron, Gary, Rick,  Curious.  Does your RC allow adjustable whisker poles longer 
than J length to be used during a race in your areas?

Chuck
Resolute
1990 C&C 34R
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md





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Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

[Chuck S via CnC-List]

Ron, Gary, Rick, 
Curious. Does your RC allow adjustable whisker poles longer than J length to be 
used during a race in your areas? 

Chuck 
Resolute 
1990 C&C 34R 
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md 

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Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet

[Ron Casciato via CnC-List]

Hi Rick:

 

I claim advantage since I also have a 38MKII, '77 vintage.

 

You could check the NEPHRF.org website to see if your current handicaps are
close for the boats racing.if you have boats that are not registered,
you could assign a rating comparable with the list found there.  

 

However, there are always discrepancies.the "known list" portends to be
applicable to a boat that is in "racing shape"  in our case that means that
the sails and equipment are up to snuff and the bottom is cleanI would
expect that some of your participants won't match those criteria

 

What we do in the Hingham fleet is to establish a "racing and a cruising"
rating for each boat.  Racing rating considers that the regular symmetrical
spinnaker will be used on a pole.  The cruising rating covers boats using
Jib and main only.  For our regular Wednesday night races, we don't have
enough boats to race separate races in each fleet so if I want to race in
the B fleet (which we won overall last year), and we don't want to use a
spinnaker (which I don't have, only an ASYM) we let "cruising boats race
with the spinnaker boats and add 10% to the cruising ratingThat worked
very well for us last year.

 

IN our pursuit races, and we have several with over 100 boats entered, we
also (by necessity) have both types of boats racing in the same raceall
in one fleet.  IN that case, boats that are racing "Cruising" get 10sec.
added to their cruising rating.  Again worked well for us last year. 

 

In your Pursuit race..simply assign a base handicap to each boat and
then adjust it for spinnaker or not racing.  Since the pursuit race starting
time already takes the handicap into accountthen as usual, the first
boat across the finish line wins

 

You could also check out a web site; www.regattaman.com
   these guys do the race management for most of
the events in New Englandfind the calendar page and check out the Great
Chase Raceyou'll find NOR's, Sailing instructions, and ratings for over
100 boats from Rhodes 19's to Swan 42's and beyond...

 

If you need more info, check with me off line and I'll send what I can.

 

Best,

 

Ron Casciato

Impromptu

C&C 38MKIIC...'77

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Brass via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 9:17 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet

 

OK. I know this has been discussed before. But I just spent almost two hours
in the mail archives rereading a whole bunch of previous messages, trying to
come up with a consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin
and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet.

 

What I firmly believe I have discovered is that, sort of like economists and
politicians, if you laid all the opinions end to end they would never reach
a conclusion.

 

I know that a number of PHRF organizations give a boat both a Spin and a
non-spin rating. And I understand that local some local organizations with
small fleets running in a single event will adjust the ratings of boats in
non-spin to promote more even competition. From what I can see, the credit
for running non-spin seems to be in the range of 10-18 seconds, or 10-15% of
the boat's PHRF.

 

What I'm trying to do is plan for a "C&C Cup" to be run as part of a local
charity regatta called Pirates on the Pungo, in Belhaven, NC on the weekend
of May 15-17. More on that later.

 

The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and
finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. I know of
about 15 C&Cs within a day's travel of Belhaven, so I'm guessing the fleet
would include 8-10 boats, with some cruisers and 1 or 2 real racers. To
promote camaraderie and competition, and also so I don't have to pony up too
much for the prizes (the winner will get a half hull of his own boat made by
Andrew Burton), we would have a single fleet.

 

So help me here:

 

How does your local PHRF or sailing club adjust the ratings between Spin and
JAM to allow both types of boats in a single fleet? And how equitable are
the results based on your experience?

 

 

Rick Brass

Imzadi  C&C 38 mk 2

la Belle Aurore C&C 25 mk1

Washington, NC

 

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Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

Rick, you probably have seen some of my earlier postings from earlier debates. 
We have two small fleets around St. Michaels. Our Herring Island Sailing Fleet 
uses a 15% rating adjustment for non spinnaker boats, with a 7.5% adjustment if 
the boat has a cruising spinnaker (gennaker?) tacked to the bow - no poles 
allowed. It has worked pretty well over a number of years.

Our Wednesday Night Fleet uses a flat 10% adjustment for non spinnaker boats - 
white sails only.

We have been doing this for about 15 years - anything more 'fancy' creates 
confusion. The Charleston fleet has a sliding scale dependent on the style of 
boat, but when trying to explain it to the troops, all I got were rolling 
eyeballs.

In each case, the skipper must make his/her decision before the course is 
posted - no 'cheating' when it is an all reaching course or some other factor. 
In most cases, it is because the wind is too strong, or the crew is too small. 
In strong wind (inexperienced skipper or crew) some racers would not 
participate if they couldn't get some relief for not flying a chute. However, 
when it is blowing and the boat would be near or at hull speed without a chute, 
the adjustment may be too large. 

One caveat - we have series races - Herring Island has three four race series - 
from May to the beginning of October and the Wednesday is one long series of up 
to 22 races all summer - and both have throw-outs.

If you are trying this for a single race, you may want to come up with a 
sliding scale - when it is blowing hard enough to have boats get up toward hull 
speed without a chute, a 15% adjustment would be excessive. I have had races 
where I was near 6 knots in my 30-1 with a poled out genoa and competitors were 
fighting to keep their boats under the chutes and were only going a wee bit 
faster. In medium to light conditions, 15% may not make it even.

Good luck - if you are only dealing with C&C boats (traditional ones, not the 
new 30) you can probably choose something which will be equitable, when you get 
into a fleet like ours (C&C 115 at PHRF 75 to Triton at 252...), then it is 
tougher.

Gary Nylander
30-1 Maryland

From: Rick Brass via CnC-List 
  To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
  Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 9:17 PM
  Subject: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet


  OK. I know this has been discussed before. But I just spent almost two hours 
in the mail archives rereading a whole bunch of previous messages, trying to 
come up with a consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to allow spin 
and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet.

   

  What I firmly believe I have discovered is that, sort of like economists and 
politicians, if you laid all the opinions end to end they would never reach a 
conclusion.

   

  I know that a number of PHRF organizations give a boat both a Spin and a 
non-spin rating. And I understand that local some local organizations with 
small fleets running in a single event will adjust the ratings of boats in 
non-spin to promote more even competition. From what I can see, the credit for 
running non-spin seems to be in the range of 10-18 seconds, or 10-15% of the 
boat's PHRF.

   

  What I'm trying to do is plan for a "C&C Cup" to be run as part of a local 
charity regatta called Pirates on the Pungo, in Belhaven, NC on the weekend of 
May 15-17. More on that later.

   

  The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and 
finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. I know of 
about 15 C&Cs within a day's travel of Belhaven, so I'm guessing the fleet 
would include 8-10 boats, with some cruisers and 1 or 2 real racers. To promote 
camaraderie and competition, and also so I don't have to pony up too much for 
the prizes (the winner will get a half hull of his own boat made by Andrew 
Burton), we would have a single fleet.

   

  So help me here:

   

  How does your local PHRF or sailing club adjust the ratings between Spin and 
JAM to allow both types of boats in a single fleet? And how equitable are the 
results based on your experience?

   

   

  Rick Brass

  Imzadi  C&C 38 mk 2

  la Belle Aurore C&C 25 mk1

  Washington, NC

   



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Stus-List Restoring Grip to Winches

[Joe at Zialater via CnC-List]

Hi Kevin - I had the same problem with the Barient primaries on my 30 MK1.
It would have cost $75 each to have then done at a shop and it would have
taken weeks.  So I chose the cheap alternative and it worked like a charm.
I used a sharp nail punch and lightly punched a bunch of indentations in a
pattern on each winch.  I didn't even have to remove the drums to do this.
Still working great after 2 years.

Cheers,

Joe
Zia
1975 30MK1
Annapolis
**


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Re: Stus-List Whisker Pole

[D.J. Platt via CnC-List]

If DDW is 180 then by extending the pole and moving the clew forward while 
keeping the leach tight, depending on wind strength, I can sometimes get to 150 
apparent.  160 is achievable on my boat in almost any wind strength. 

Cheers

david
Wanderer C&C 32






From: Ronald B. Frerker 
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 12:34 PM
To: D.J. Platt ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Whisker Pole


Sorry, not quite understanding.
By "fairly deep angles downwind" do you mean more dead downwind or do you mean 
reaching up and getting away from DDW?
Ron
Wild Cheri
C&C 30-1
STL






From: D.J. Platt via CnC-List 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Whisker Pole



With a slightly longer pole and a means of keeping some tension on the jib 
leach you can reach at fairly deep angles downwind with a pole.  It is 
sometimes the fastest option in lighter air.  Won a 12 miler doing just that 
last year.

Cheers

david
Wanderer C&C 32





From: Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 12:46 PM
To: Jean-Francois J Rivard ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Whisker Pole


With chutes the general rule is to reach up in the lighter winds and sail more 
DDW in the stronger winds.
It would seem that would also work for JAM racing.







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Re: Stus-List PHRF Adjustments for Spin and JAM in a single fleet

[Ian Matthew via CnC-List]

This is what we do at our club, Tiburon YC on San Francisco Bay.  We take
the PHRF rating and if the boat is sailing non-spinnaker we add 18 seconds
per mile to the PHRF rating.  We have done this for over 15 years ago and
it seems to work in our mixed fleets.

On Friday, March 20, 2015, Eric Baumes via CnC-List 
wrote:

> For racing on Long Island and the Hudson River the spin and non-spin
> ratings are not intended to be used to combine fleets.
>
> These ratings reflect differences in a boats ability when racing in either
> a spin or non-spin fleet. For example if you use a spinnaker pole as a
> whisker pole in non-spinnaker you can get a credit. Also a boat designed
> with a standard blade jib is seen to be at a disadvantage when racing with
> out a spinnaker as they have less sail area in the jib to project to
> windward and may get a different non-spinnaker base rating.
>
> Eric
> 34/36
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:45 PM, Joel Aronson via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Rick,
>>
>> This has been discussed recently for shorthanded sailing  on the
>> Chesapeake.  Bottom line is there is no way to race spin and non-spin
>> together fairly.  You can come up with a differential, bu it nothing more
>> than a SWAG
>>
>> Joel
>>
>> On Friday, March 20, 2015, Rick Brass via CnC-List > > wrote:
>>
>>> OK. I know this has been discussed before. But I just spent almost two
>>> hours in the mail archives rereading a whole bunch of previous messages,
>>> trying to come up with a consensus opinion on how to adjust PHRF ratings to
>>> allow spin and JAM boats to compete in a single (small) fleet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What I firmly believe I have discovered is that, sort of like economists
>>> and politicians, if you laid all the opinions end to end they would never
>>> reach a conclusion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I know that a number of PHRF organizations give a boat both a Spin and a
>>> non-spin rating. And I understand that local some local organizations with
>>> small fleets running in a single event will adjust the ratings of boats in
>>> non-spin to promote more even competition. From what I can see, the credit
>>> for running non-spin seems to be in the range of 10-18 seconds, or 10-15%
>>> of the boat’s PHRF.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What I’m trying to do is plan for a “C&C Cup” to be run as part of a
>>> local charity regatta called Pirates on the Pungo, in Belhaven, NC on the
>>> weekend of May 15-17. More on that later.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The race on Saturday is a longish (10-12NM) pursuit race that starts and
>>> finishes in the harbor and has north, south, east, and west legs. I know of
>>> about 15 C&Cs within a day’s travel of Belhaven, so I’m guessing the fleet
>>> would include 8-10 boats, with some cruisers and 1 or 2 real racers. To
>>> promote camaraderie and competition, and also so I don’t have to pony up
>>> too much for the prizes (the winner will get a half hull of his own boat
>>> made by Andrew Burton), we would have a single fleet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So help me here:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How does your local PHRF or sailing club adjust the ratings between Spin
>>> and JAM to allow both types of boats in a single fleet? And how equitable
>>> are the results based on your experience?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rick Brass
>>>
>>> *Imzadi  *C&C 38 mk 2
>>>
>>> *la Belle Aurore *C&C 25 mk1
>>>
>>> Washington, NC
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Joel
>> 301 541 8551
>>
>> ___
>>
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>>
>>
>

-- 
Ian Matthew
"Siento el Viento" C&C 29 mk 1
San Francisco Bay

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