Stus-List Bluetti Portable Power Station

[Kevin Wright via CnC-List]

Hi All,
Just to throw another idea out there.
I've just bought a Bluetti AC2000p and plan on hooking up my 4 100w solar
panels directly to it. then using a Blue Sea Systems AC Rotary Switch "Off
+ Shore Power + Generator Positions" to wire it to my AC panel.
The Bluetti has a built-in charge controller and inverter. This way I can
keep my house and start banks as is. Maybe not the most inexpensive route
but seems simple enough.
Am I missing anything? Anybody done something similar?
Thanks
Kevin

https://www.bluettipower.ca/products/bluetti-ac200p-2000wh-2000w
https://ca.binnacle.com/product_info.php?products_id=7642&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnNyUBhCZARIsAI9AYlEA3QxjkDbzzJz0klNKjTzJErirJGzSOarToU-nisyA2bS-z6-ySKMaAhMdEALw_wcB

S/V Raven
1985 Landfall 43
Midland ON.

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

It might be. I have the cheap version that is a $2 Zener diode across the 
alternator. They do help, but any sustained overvoltage will burn them up – 
literally.

Given how much a Balmar alternator costs, I might get one of these, especially 
if I was trying to directly charge a lithium bank. They look much better than 
the old Zeners which also have no indication they have failed unless they are 
totally melted.

 

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C&C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

 

 

 

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 12:58 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: davidakne...@gmail.com
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

While on the topic of wiring alternators to batteries, Balmar has a “new” 
alternator protection module. Worth $70?  

Sent from my iPhone





On Jun 1, 2022, at 9:57 AM, Joe Della Barba via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:



This is exactly why if I go lithium, the charging will work as follows:

Alternator > Start Battery > DC-DC Charger > Lithium Battery.

I also have the temp sensor on the alternator, which should help keep it from 
being roasted. That still doesn’t help with the issue of the BMS opening. 

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C&C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

 

 

 

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 9:38 AM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: Bill Coleman mailto:colt...@gmail.com> >
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

Thank you for outing the hack, sometimes it is hard to know who to believe when 
something (like this) is not your area of expertise.

I just found this on my Balmar regulator instructions, which gives me pause . 
.. 

 

LFP LiFeP04 Recommendations

Our LFP program is a generalized version of the recommendations provided by the 
top LFP battery manufacturers. For best performance and compatibility, please 
consult your battery manufacturer and use the regulator’s advanced programming 
features to adjust the LFP program as needed. LFP batteries are more sensitive 
to abuse than a traditional chemistry battery and can fail catastrophically. It 
is HIGHLY recommended that the charging system as a whole be installed or 
inspected by a qualified marine electrical installer that has experience with 
Balmar charging system products and LFP batteries. The LFP profile is intended 
to work with the battery manufacturer’s battery management systems (BMS). The 
LFP profile IS NOT a replacement for a BMS.

 

*Many LiFePo4 batteries have a Battery Management System (BMS) that may 
disconnect the battery from the alternator as a protective action or when 
charging is complete. The regulator must be shut down before the battery is 
disconnected .Running an alternator without a battery will damage the 
alternator and may damage any attached system. This is doubly true if the 
battery can be disconnected during high current charging, causing a load dump. 
The load dump can easily cause a high voltage spike which will destroy the 
alternator’s rectifier, at minimum. This is not a warrantable failure. To 
reiterate: THE ALTERNATOR MUST BE SHUT DOWN BEFORE DISCONNECTING THE BATTERY. 
THE ONLY SAFE WAY TO SHUT DOWN THE ALTERNATOR IS TO TURN OFF THE REGULATOR. The 
preferred method of turning off the regulator is disconnecting the regulator’s 
ignition (brown) wire, but if used as an EMERGENCY ONLY shutdown, disconnecting 
the regulator’s power input (red) wire in addition to the ignition wire has a 
very low chance of damaging the regulator.

 

*LFP batteries will readily accept a damaging amount of current. Applying too 
much charge current to a LFP battery will, at the very least, permanently 
damage the battery’s capacity. It is CRITICAL to ensure that the alternator is 
not capable of exceeding the maximum continuous charge current rating of your 
battery (or batteries). As always, check with your battery manufacturer for 
specifics. Your battery manufacturer may supply you with a “C-rate” for 
charging and discharging. The maximum amount of charging current your battery 
can safely handle is determined by multiplying the “C-Rate” by the capacity of 
the bank. i.e. 4x 100Ah 12V batteries rated at 0.5C charge = 400 Ah * 0.5C = 
200amps MAX. If your alternator is capable of outputting more current, at any 
time or condition, than the battery (or batteries) can handle, you may use the 
Amp Manager feature on the MC-624 to lower the maximum field drive output, and 
thereby lower the maximum alternator output current. See page 10 of your 
regulator manual for details and instructions. Be aware that it is not an exact 
1:1 correlation between field output and alternator output, so start with more 
reduction (lower output) than you think you need and adjust accordingly.

 

*It is strongly recommended that an alternator temperature sensor (MC-TS-A) be 
used when charging LFP batteries. Given the extremely high charge acceptance 
rate of LFP batteries, the alte

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

While on the topic of wiring alternators to batteries, Balmar has a “new” 
alternator protection module. Worth $70?  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 1, 2022, at 9:57 AM, Joe Della Barba via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> This is exactly why if I go lithium, the charging will work as follows:
> Alternator > Start Battery > DC-DC Charger > Lithium Battery.
> I also have the temp sensor on the alternator, which should help keep it from 
> being roasted. That still doesn’t help with the issue of the BMS opening.
>  
> Joe Della Barba
> Coquina C&C 35 MK I
> Kent Island MD USA
>  
>  
>  
> From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
> Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 9:38 AM
> To: 'Stus-List' 
> Cc: Bill Coleman 
> Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again
>  
> Thank you for outing the hack, sometimes it is hard to know who to believe 
> when something (like this) is not your area of expertise.
> I just found this on my Balmar regulator instructions, which gives me pause . 
> ..
>  
> LFP LiFeP04 Recommendations
> Our LFP program is a generalized version of the recommendations provided by 
> the top LFP battery manufacturers. For best performance and compatibility, 
> please consult your battery manufacturer and use the regulator’s advanced 
> programming features to adjust the LFP program as needed. LFP batteries are 
> more sensitive to abuse than a traditional chemistry battery and can fail 
> catastrophically. It is HIGHLY recommended that the charging system as a 
> whole be installed or inspected by a qualified marine electrical installer 
> that has experience with Balmar charging system products and LFP batteries. 
> The LFP profile is intended to work with the battery manufacturer’s battery 
> management systems (BMS). The LFP profile IS NOT a replacement for a BMS.
>  
> FMany LiFePo4 batteries have a Battery Management System (BMS) that may 
> disconnect the battery from the alternator as a protective action or when 
> charging is complete. The regulator must be shut down before the battery is 
> disconnected .Running an alternator without a battery will damage the 
> alternator and may damage any attached system. This is doubly true if the 
> battery can be disconnected during high current charging, causing a load 
> dump. The load dump can easily cause a high voltage spike which will destroy 
> the alternator’s rectifier, at minimum. This is not a warrantable failure. To 
> reiterate: THE ALTERNATOR MUST BE SHUT DOWN BEFORE DISCONNECTING THE BATTERY. 
> THE ONLY SAFE WAY TO SHUT DOWN THE ALTERNATOR IS TO TURN OFF THE REGULATOR. 
> The preferred method of turning off the regulator is disconnecting the 
> regulator’s ignition (brown) wire, but if used as an EMERGENCY ONLY shutdown, 
> disconnecting the regulator’s power input (red) wire in addition to the 
> ignition wire has a very low chance of damaging the regulator.
>  
> FLFP batteries will readily accept a damaging amount of current. Applying too 
> much charge current to a LFP battery will, at the very least, permanently 
> damage the battery’s capacity. It is CRITICAL to ensure that the alternator 
> is not capable of exceeding the maximum continuous charge current rating of 
> your battery (or batteries). As always, check with your battery manufacturer 
> for specifics. Your battery manufacturer may supply you with a “C-rate” for 
> charging and discharging. The maximum amount of charging current your battery 
> can safely handle is determined by multiplying the “C-Rate” by the capacity 
> of the bank. i.e. 4x 100Ah 12V batteries rated at 0.5C charge = 400 Ah * 0.5C 
> = 200amps MAX. If your alternator is capable of outputting more current, at 
> any time or condition, than the battery (or batteries) can handle, you may 
> use the Amp Manager feature on the MC-624 to lower the maximum field drive 
> output, and thereby lower the maximum alternator output current. See page 10 
> of your regulator manual for details and instructions. Be aware that it is 
> not an exact 1:1 correlation between field output and alternator output, so 
> start with more reduction (lower output) than you think you need and adjust 
> accordingly.
>  
> FIt is strongly recommended that an alternator temperature sensor (MC-TS-A) 
> be used when charging LFP batteries. Given the extremely high charge 
> acceptance rate of LFP batteries, the alternator will be driven to full 
> output for almost all of the charge cycle. This can cause overheating in 
> automotive style alternators resulting in a significantly shortened lifespan. 
> When equipped with the MC-TS-A temperature sensor, the MC-624 will help you 
> protect your investment by reducing the field voltage to your alternator by 
> 50% when over the “AL1” temperature threshold. If you cannot use an MC-TS-A 
> in your application, you should monitor the alternator’s temperature (measure 
> as close to the loop ends of the stator as possible) and discontinue charging 
> if the alternator temperature rises above the maximum recommend

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Batteries again

[Neil Andersen via CnC-List]

Which I believe is code…

Neil Andersen, W3NEA
Rock Hall, MD 21661
484-354-8800

From: dwight veinot via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 10:33:25 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: dwight veinot 
Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Batteries again

For safer storage of lead/acid batteries onboard mine are in leak proof battery 
boxes which are held in place with straps attached to solid support

On Tue, May 31, 2022 at 9:48 AM Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

Pretty much that. If you don’t mind having wet batteries those are probably 
fine. Having a battery crack open and dump acid in the bilge during a hurricane 
was a stinky situation I do not care to repeat.

Joe

Coquina



From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 6:51 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: David Knecht mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Batteries again



The battery you indicated appears not to be an AGM.  Flooded batteries in 
general are much cheaper than the AGM.  My battery compartment is not easily 
accessible, so having to maintain the water level in the battery,  worries 
about operating it while healed plus the potential danger of spills makes me 
much happier to spend the extra $$$ for AGM batteries.  One less thing to worry 
about.  Dave



S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

[cid:1811fabb392ad7999131]



On May 30, 2022, at 11:57 PM, Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:



I have used Dyno batteries without issue.  They cost less than 1/2.  Am I 
missing something?



https://www.fisheriessupply.com/dyno-battery-heavy-duty-m30-marine-batteries/m30hh

Tom Buscaglia

S/V Alera

1990 C&C 37+/40

Vashon WA

P 206.463.9200

C 305.409.3660





On May 30, 2022, at 9:30 AM, Korbey Hunt via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:



I highly recommend Lifeline group 31



Get Outlook for Android



From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 9:40:31 AM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: j...@dellabarba.com 
mailto:j...@dellabarba.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again



There is a lot of reason to be concerned about off brands. Pretty much all 
cycling batteries of the same size will be about the same AH rating. There is 
no magic in lead batteries, the AH per pound is pretty consistent.  What 
matters *hugely* is the number of cycles that they can endure before being 
trashed. The various cheap Chinese imports are highly variable to say the 
least, their reviews are all over the place. Lifeline is usually considered the 
best AGM maker.

FYI – Deka makes all the West Marine AGMs, you might call around your local 
battery shop and see what they charge. They are worse than Lifelines, but if 
they crap out after a week at least you can return them to the store 😉

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C&C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA







From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 11:25 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: David Knecht mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Batteries again



I have been following the battery discussion and have a question.  I need to 
replace my two 9 year old AGM batteries this season.  I have separate start and 
house batteries which can be combined if needed.  I don’t have large power 
needs (electronics, autopilot and fridge when cruising).  I have been reading 
and researching this and I am unsure of what to purchase.  From what I have 
read, AH is the important number to focus on.  Last time, I got Lifeline AGM 
group 27 from Defender.  Defender has 3 different group 27 batteries

Powertech rated at 92AH  which cost about $330

Lifeline  rated at 100AH for 432

Northstar   rated at 92AH for 457



From Amazon, I can get a VMAX group 27 with 100AH for $289 or a Universal with 
110 AH for $239.  Is there any reason to be concerned about less known (to me) 
brands from Amazon or does it make sense to just focus on the numbers?  Thanks- 
Dave



S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT





--
Sent from Gmail Mobile

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Matthew via CnC-List]

FWIW, I periodically revisit this issue as technologies improve, and so far I 
have reached the same conclusion as Charlie.  For how I use my boat, my 
old-fashioned lead acid battery system is good enough.

 

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2022 11:15 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: j...@dellabarba.com; cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

Thanks all--and to paraphrase Joe's remarks, this is exactly why I will never 
go lithium on Water Phantom.

 

My boat use is for pleasure, not live aboard or extended cruising. Keeping up 
with even the simplest systems, when there are many of them, is enough 
engagement for me with the intricacies of boat maintenance. Do I want to add 
even more? You have got to be kidding me!!

 

Now and probably for some time, IMHO a lithium battery on a boat violates the 
KISS principle big time!

 

Charlie Nelson

Water Phantom 36XL/kcb
New Bern, NC

 

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Charlie Nelson via CnC-List]

Thanks all--and to paraphrase Joe's remarks, this is exactly why I will never 
go lithium on Water Phantom.
My boat use is for pleasure, not live aboard or extended cruising. Keeping up 
with even the simplest systems, when there are many of them, is enough 
engagement for me with the intricacies of boat maintenance. Do I want to add 
even more? You have got to be kidding me!!
Now and probably for some time, IMHO a lithium battery on a boat violates the 
KISS principle big time!
Charlie NelsonWater Phantom 36XL/kcb
New Bern, NC

-Original Message-
From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List 
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: j...@dellabarba.com
Sent: Wed, Jun 1, 2022 9:57 am
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

This is exactly why if I go lithium, the 
charging will work as follows:Alternator > Start Battery > DC-DC Charger > 
Lithium Battery.I also have the temp sensor on the alternator, which should 
help keep it from being roasted. That still doesn’t help with the issue of the 
BMS opening.   Joe Della BarbaCoquina C&C 35 MK IKent Island MD USA      From: 
Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 9:38 AM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again  Thank you for outing the hack, 
sometimes it is hard to know who to believe when something (like this) is not 
your area of expertise.I just found this on my Balmar regulator instructions, 
which gives me pause . ..   LFP LiFeP04 RecommendationsOur LFP program is a 
generalized version of the recommendations provided by the top LFP battery 
manufacturers. For best performance and compatibility, please consult your 
battery manufacturer and use the regulator’s advanced programming features to 
adjust the LFP program as needed. LFP batteries are more sensitive to abuse 
than a traditional chemistry battery and can fail catastrophically. It is 
HIGHLY recommended that the charging system as a whole be installed or 
inspected by a qualified marine electrical installer that has experience with 
Balmar charging system products and LFP batteries. The LFP profile is intended 
to work with the battery manufacturer’s battery management systems (BMS). The 
LFP profile IS NOT a replacement for a BMS.  FMany LiFePo4 batteries have a 
Battery Management System (BMS) that may disconnect the battery from the 
alternator as a protective action or when charging is complete. The regulator 
must be shut down before the battery is disconnected .Running an alternator 
without a battery will damage the alternator and may damage any attached 
system. This is doubly true if the battery can be disconnected during high 
current charging, causing a load dump. The load dump can easily cause a high 
voltage spike which will destroy the alternator’s rectifier, at minimum. This 
is not a warrantable failure. To reiterate: THE ALTERNATOR MUST BE SHUT DOWN 
BEFORE DISCONNECTING THE BATTERY. THE ONLY SAFE WAY TO SHUT DOWN THE ALTERNATOR 
IS TO TURN OFF THE REGULATOR. The preferred method of turning off the regulator 
is disconnecting the regulator’s ignition (brown) wire, but if used as an 
EMERGENCY ONLY shutdown, disconnecting the regulator’s power input (red) wire 
in addition to the ignition wire has a very low chance of damaging the 
regulator.  FLFP batteries will readily accept a damaging amount of current. 
Applying too much charge current to a LFP battery will, at the very least, 
permanently damage the battery’s capacity. It is CRITICAL to ensure that the 
alternator is not capable of exceeding the maximum continuous charge current 
rating of your battery (or batteries). As always, check with your battery 
manufacturer for specifics. Your battery manufacturer may supply you with a 
“C-rate” for charging and discharging. The maximum amount of charging current 
your battery can safely handle is determined by multiplying the “C-Rate” by the 
capacity of the bank. i.e. 4x 100Ah 12V batteries rated at 0.5C charge = 400 Ah 
* 0.5C = 200amps MAX. If your alternator is capable of outputting more current, 
at any time or condition, than the battery (or batteries) can handle, you may 
use the Amp Manager feature on the MC-624 to lower the maximum field drive 
output, and thereby lower the maximum alternator output current. See page 10 of 
your regulator manual for details and instructions. Be aware that it is not an 
exact 1:1 correlation between field output and alternator output, so start with 
more reduction (lower output) than you think you need and adjust accordingly.  
FIt is strongly recommended that an alternator temperature sensor (MC-TS-A) be 
used when charging LFP batteries. Given the extremely high charge acceptance 
rate of LFP batteries, the alternator will be driven to full output for almost 
all of the charge cycle. This can cause overheating in automotive style 
alternators resulting in a significantly shortened lifespan. When equipped with 
the MC-TS-A temperature sensor, the MC-624 will help you protect your 
investment by reducing the fi

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Batteries again

[Kevin Wright via CnC-List]

Hi All,
Just to throw another idea out there.
I've just bought a Bluette AC2000p and plan on hooking up my 4 100w solar
panels directly to it. then using a Blue Sea Systems AC Rotary Switch "Off
+ Shore Power + Generator Positions" to wire it to my AC panel.
The Bluetti has a built-in charge controller and inverter. This way I can
keep my house and start banks as is. Maybe not the most inexpensive route
but seems simple enough.
Am I missing anything? Anybody done something similar?
Thanks
Kevin

https://www.bluettipower.ca/products/bluetti-ac200p-2000wh-2000w
https://ca.binnacle.com/product_info.php?products_id=7642&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnNyUBhCZARIsAI9AYlEA3QxjkDbzzJz0klNKjTzJErirJGzSOarToU-nisyA2bS-z6-ySKMaAhMdEALw_wcB

S/V Raven
1985 Landfall 43
Midland ON.

>

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Batteries again

[Matthew via CnC-List]

I’d have to experience a roll-through to be concerned about battery movement on 
my boat.  

 

From: dwight veinot via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2022 10:33 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: dwight veinot 
Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Batteries again

 

For safer storage of lead/acid batteries onboard mine are in leak proof battery 
boxes which are held in place with straps attached to solid support

 

On Tue, May 31, 2022 at 9:48 AM Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

Pretty much that. If you don’t mind having wet batteries those are probably 
fine. Having a battery crack open and dump acid in the bilge during a hurricane 
was a stinky situation I do not care to repeat. 

Joe

Coquina

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 6:51 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: David Knecht mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com> >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

The battery you indicated appears not to be an AGM.  Flooded batteries in 
general are much cheaper than the AGM.  My battery compartment is not easily 
accessible, so having to maintain the water level in the battery,  worries 
about operating it while healed plus the potential danger of spills makes me 
much happier to spend the extra $$$ for AGM batteries.  One less thing to worry 
about.  Dave

 

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT




 

On May 30, 2022, at 11:57 PM, Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

 

I have used Dyno batteries without issue.  They cost less than 1/2.  Am I 
missing something?

 

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/dyno-battery-heavy-duty-m30-marine-batteries/m30hh

Tom Buscaglia

S/V Alera 

1990 C&C 37+/40

Vashon WA

P 206.463.9200

C 305.409.3660

 

 

On May 30, 2022, at 9:30 AM, Korbey Hunt via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:



I highly recommend Lifeline group 31

 

Get Outlook for Android  


  _  


From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 9:40:31 AM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: j...@dellabarba.com   mailto:j...@dellabarba.com> >
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

There is a lot of reason to be concerned about off brands. Pretty much all 
cycling batteries of the same size will be about the same AH rating. There is 
no magic in lead batteries, the AH per pound is pretty consistent.  What 
matters *hugely* is the number of cycles that they can endure before being 
trashed. The various cheap Chinese imports are highly variable to say the 
least, their reviews are all over the place. Lifeline is usually considered the 
best AGM maker.

FYI – Deka makes all the West Marine AGMs, you might call around your local 
battery shop and see what they charge. They are worse than Lifelines, but if 
they crap out after a week at least you can return them to the store 😉

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C&C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

 

 

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 11:25 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: David Knecht mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com> >
Subject: Stus-List Batteries again

 

I have been following the battery discussion and have a question.  I need to 
replace my two 9 year old AGM batteries this season.  I have separate start and 
house batteries which can be combined if needed.  I don’t have large power 
needs (electronics, autopilot and fridge when cruising).  I have been reading 
and researching this and I am unsure of what to purchase.  From what I have 
read, AH is the important number to focus on.  Last time, I got Lifeline AGM 
group 27 from Defender.  Defender has 3 different group 27 batteries

Powertech rated at 92AH  which cost about $330

Lifeline  rated at 100AH for 432

Northstar   rated at 92AH for 457

  

>From Amazon, I can get a VMAX group 27 with 100AH for $289 or a Universal with 
>110 AH for $239.  Is there any reason to be concerned about less known (to me) 
>brands from Amazon or does it make sense to just focus on the numbers?  
>Thanks- Dave  

 

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT




 

-- 

Sent from Gmail Mobile

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Batteries again

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

That is as it should be. Long story with the hurricane, but a battery box had 
cracked, I hadn’t got a replacement for it yet, and trying to get upwind and 
upcurrent in a hurricane was not only futile, it was enough of a beating to 
crack the battery and crack the case more. The stinky acid solution was not 
only stinky, it got into a locker with all my spare canned food and ate holes 
in the cans ☹ Note that straps across the top of the BOX is not like straps 
across the battery, it can still move a little.
I swore never again would I have wet batteries!
Joe
Coquina




From: dwight veinot via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 10:33 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: dwight veinot 
Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Batteries again

For safer storage of lead/acid batteries onboard mine are in leak proof battery 
boxes which are held in place with straps attached to solid support

On Tue, May 31, 2022 at 9:48 AM Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Pretty much that. If you don’t mind having wet batteries those are probably 
fine. Having a battery crack open and dump acid in the bilge during a hurricane 
was a stinky situation I do not care to repeat.
Joe
Coquina

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Batteries again

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

For safer storage of lead/acid batteries onboard mine are in leak proof
battery boxes which are held in place with straps attached to solid support

On Tue, May 31, 2022 at 9:48 AM Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Pretty much that. If you don’t mind having wet batteries those are
> probably fine. Having a battery crack open and dump acid in the bilge
> during a hurricane was a stinky situation I do not care to repeat.
>
> Joe
>
> Coquina
>
>
>
> *From:* David Knecht via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 31, 2022 6:51 AM
> *To:* CnC CnC discussion list 
> *Cc:* David Knecht 
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Batteries again
>
>
>
> The battery you indicated appears not to be an AGM.  Flooded batteries in
> general are much cheaper than the AGM.  My battery compartment is not
> easily accessible, so having to maintain the water level in the battery,
>  worries about operating it while healed plus the potential danger of
> spills makes me much happier to spend the extra $$$ for AGM batteries.  One
> less thing to worry about.  Dave
>
>
>
> S/V Aries
>
> 1990 C&C 34+
>
> New London, CT
>
>
>
>
> On May 30, 2022, at 11:57 PM, Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I have used Dyno batteries without issue.  They cost less than 1/2.  Am I
> missing something?
>
>
>
>
> https://www.fisheriessupply.com/dyno-battery-heavy-duty-m30-marine-batteries/m30hh
>
> Tom Buscaglia
>
> S/V Alera
>
> 1990 C&C 37+/40
>
> Vashon WA
>
> P 206.463.9200
>
> C 305.409.3660
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 30, 2022, at 9:30 AM, Korbey Hunt via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> 
>
> I highly recommend Lifeline group 31
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android 
> --
>
> *From:* Joe Della Barba via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 26, 2022 9:40:31 AM
> *To:* 'Stus-List' 
> *Cc:* j...@dellabarba.com 
> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: Batteries again
>
>
>
> There is a lot of reason to be concerned about off brands. Pretty much all
> cycling batteries of the same size will be about the same AH rating. There
> is no magic in lead batteries, the AH per pound is pretty consistent.  What
> matters **hugely** is the number of cycles that they can endure before
> being trashed. The various cheap Chinese imports are highly variable to say
> the least, their reviews are all over the place. Lifeline is usually
> considered the best AGM maker.
>
> FYI – Deka makes all the West Marine AGMs, you might call around your
> local battery shop and see what they charge. They are worse than Lifelines,
> but if they crap out after a week at least you can return them to the store
>  😉
>
> Joe Della Barba
>
> Coquina C&C 35 MK I
>
> Kent Island MD USA
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* David Knecht via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 26, 2022 11:25 AM
> *To:* CnC CnC discussion list 
> *Cc:* David Knecht 
> *Subject:* Stus-List Batteries again
>
>
>
> I have been following the battery discussion and have a question.  I need
> to replace my two 9 year old AGM batteries this season.  I have separate
> start and house batteries which can be combined if needed.  I don’t have
> large power needs (electronics, autopilot and fridge when cruising).  I
> have been reading and researching this and I am unsure of what to
> purchase.  From what I have read, AH is the important number to focus on.
> Last time, I got Lifeline AGM group 27 from Defender.  Defender has 3
> different group 27 batteries
>
> Powertech rated at 92AH  which cost about $330
>
> Lifeline  rated at 100AH for 432
>
> Northstar   rated at 92AH for 457
>
>
>
> From Amazon, I can get a VMAX group 27 with 100AH for $289 or a Universal
> with 110 AH for $239.  Is there any reason to be concerned about less known
> (to me) brands from Amazon or does it make sense to just focus on the
> numbers?  Thanks- Dave
>
>
>
> S/V Aries
>
> 1990 C&C 34+
>
> New London, CT
>
>
> 
>
>
>
-- 
Sent from Gmail Mobile

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Matthew via CnC-List]

It sounds like you need to do a complete re-fit – batteries, charger, 
alternator – and not simply swap batteries.

 

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2022 9:38 AM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

Thank you for outing the hack, sometimes it is hard to know who to believe when 
something (like this) is not your area of expertise.

I just found this on my Balmar regulator instructions, which gives me pause . 
.. 

 

LFP LiFeP04 Recommendations

Our LFP program is a generalized version of the recommendations provided by the 
top LFP battery manufacturers. For best performance and compatibility, please 
consult your battery manufacturer and use the regulator’s advanced programming 
features to adjust the LFP program as needed. LFP batteries are more sensitive 
to abuse than a traditional chemistry battery and can fail catastrophically. It 
is HIGHLY recommended that the charging system as a whole be installed or 
inspected by a qualified marine electrical installer that has experience with 
Balmar charging system products and LFP batteries. The LFP profile is intended 
to work with the battery manufacturer’s battery management systems (BMS). The 
LFP profile IS NOT a replacement for a BMS.

 

*Many LiFePo4 batteries have a Battery Management System (BMS) that may 
disconnect the battery from the alternator as a protective action or when 
charging is complete. The regulator must be shut down before the battery is 
disconnected .Running an alternator without a battery will damage the 
alternator and may damage any attached system. This is doubly true if the 
battery can be disconnected during high current charging, causing a load dump. 
The load dump can easily cause a high voltage spike which will destroy the 
alternator’s rectifier, at minimum. This is not a warrantable failure. To 
reiterate: THE ALTERNATOR MUST BE SHUT DOWN BEFORE DISCONNECTING THE BATTERY. 
THE ONLY SAFE WAY TO SHUT DOWN THE ALTERNATOR IS TO TURN OFF THE REGULATOR. The 
preferred method of turning off the regulator is disconnecting the regulator’s 
ignition (brown) wire, but if used as an EMERGENCY ONLY shutdown, disconnecting 
the regulator’s power input (red) wire in addition to the ignition wire has a 
very low chance of damaging the regulator.

 

*LFP batteries will readily accept a damaging amount of current. Applying too 
much charge current to a LFP battery will, at the very least, permanently 
damage the battery’s capacity. It is CRITICAL to ensure that the alternator is 
not capable of exceeding the maximum continuous charge current rating of your 
battery (or batteries). As always, check with your battery manufacturer for 
specifics. Your battery manufacturer may supply you with a “C-rate” for 
charging and discharging. The maximum amount of charging current your battery 
can safely handle is determined by multiplying the “C-Rate” by the capacity of 
the bank. i.e. 4x 100Ah 12V batteries rated at 0.5C charge = 400 Ah * 0.5C = 
200amps MAX. If your alternator is capable of outputting more current, at any 
time or condition, than the battery (or batteries) can handle, you may use the 
Amp Manager feature on the MC-624 to lower the maximum field drive output, and 
thereby lower the maximum alternator output current. See page 10 of your 
regulator manual for details and instructions. Be aware that it is not an exact 
1:1 correlation between field output and alternator output, so start with more 
reduction (lower output) than you think you need and adjust accordingly.

 

*It is strongly recommended that an alternator temperature sensor (MC-TS-A) be 
used when charging LFP batteries. Given the extremely high charge acceptance 
rate of LFP batteries, the alternator will be driven to full output for almost 
all of the charge cycle. This can cause overheating in automotive style 
alternators resulting in a significantly shortened lifespan. When equipped with 
the MC-TS-A temperature sensor, the MC-624 will help you protect your 
investment by reducing the field voltage to your alternator by 50% when over 
the “AL1” temperature threshold. If you cannot use an MC-TS-A in your 
application, you should monitor the alternator’s temperature (measure as close 
to the loop ends of the stator as possible) and discontinue charging if the 
alternator temperature rises above the maximum recommended level. You may also 
use the Amp Manager feature on your MC-624 to reduce maximum output until a 
tolerable alternator temperature is maintained under all conditions.

 

*Most LFP battery manufacturers specify minimum and maximum charging 
temperatures to be from freezing (32°F, 0°C) to around 111°F (44°C). Again, 
consult with your battery manufacturer for specifics. When equipped with a 
MC-TS-B, the MC-624 can disable charging if the battery temperature exceeds the 
“B1L” temperature threshold and re-enable charging when the temperature drops 
below the threshold. This feature 

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

I don't know Prowse, but would hardly call him a hack.  He has reviewed
batteries and found that the advertised specs were not true and has exposed
shoddy construction.
He's not an engineer, but never claimed to be.  He's just another free
resource out there in the wild.

My 2 cents

Joel

On Wed, Jun 1, 2022 at 9:39 AM Bill Coleman via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Thank you for outing the hack, sometimes it is hard to know who to believe
> when something (like this) is not your area of expertise.
>
> I just found this on my Balmar regulator instructions, which gives me
> pause . ..
>
>
>
> LFP LiFeP0*4 *Recommendations
>
> Our LFP program is a generalized version of the recommendations provided
> by the top LFP battery manufacturers. For best performance and
> compatibility, please consult your battery manufacturer and use the
> regulator’s advanced programming features to adjust the LFP program as
> needed. LFP batteries are more sensitive to abuse than a traditional
> chemistry battery and can fail catastrophically. It is HIGHLY recommended
> that the charging system as a whole be installed or inspected by a
> qualified marine electrical installer that has experience with Balmar
> charging system products and LFP batteries. The LFP profile is intended to
> work with the battery manufacturer’s battery management systems (BMS). The
> LFP profile IS NOT a replacement for a BMS.
>
>
>
> FMany LiFePo4 batteries have a Battery Management System (BMS) that may
> disconnect the battery from the alternator as a protective action or when
> charging is complete. The regulator must be shut down before the battery is
> disconnected .Running an alternator without a battery will damage the
> alternator and may damage any attached system. This is doubly true if the
> battery can be disconnected during high current charging, causing a load
> dump. The load dump can easily cause a high voltage spike which will
> destroy the alternator’s rectifier, at minimum. This is not a warrantable
> failure. To reiterate: THE ALTERNATOR MUST BE SHUT DOWN BEFORE
> DISCONNECTING THE BATTERY. THE ONLY SAFE WAY TO SHUT DOWN THE ALTERNATOR IS
> TO TURN OFF THE REGULATOR. The preferred method of turning off the
> regulator is disconnecting the regulator’s ignition (brown) wire, but if
> used as an EMERGENCY ONLY shutdown, disconnecting the regulator’s power
> input (red) wire in addition to the ignition wire has a very low chance of
> damaging the regulator.
>
>
>
> FLFP batteries will readily accept a damaging amount of current. Applying
> too much charge current to a LFP battery will, at the very least,
> permanently damage the battery’s capacity. It is CRITICAL to ensure that
> the alternator is not capable of exceeding the maximum continuous charge
> current rating of your battery (or batteries). As always, check with your
> battery manufacturer for specifics. Your battery manufacturer may supply
> you with a “C-rate” for charging and discharging. The maximum amount of
> charging current your battery can safely handle is determined by
> multiplying the “C-Rate” by the capacity of the bank. i.e. 4x 100Ah 12V
> batteries rated at 0.5C charge = 400 Ah * 0.5C = 200amps MAX. If your
> alternator is capable of outputting more current, at any time or condition,
> than the battery (or batteries) can handle, you may use the Amp Manager
> feature on the MC-624 to lower the maximum field drive output, and thereby
> lower the maximum alternator output current. See page 10 of your regulator
> manual for details and instructions. Be aware that it is not an exact 1:1
> correlation between field output and alternator output, so start with more
> reduction (lower output) than you think you need and adjust accordingly.
>
>
>
> FIt is strongly recommended that an alternator temperature sensor
> (MC-TS-A) be used when charging LFP batteries. Given the extremely high
> charge acceptance rate of LFP batteries, the alternator will be driven to
> full output for almost all of the charge cycle. This can cause overheating
> in automotive style alternators resulting in a significantly shortened
> lifespan. When equipped with the MC-TS-A temperature sensor, the MC-624
> will help you protect your investment by reducing the field voltage to your
> alternator by 50% when over the “AL1” temperature threshold. If you cannot
> use an MC-TS-A in your application, you should monitor the alternator’s
> temperature (measure as close to the loop ends of the stator as possible)
> and discontinue charging if the alternator temperature rises above the
> maximum recommended level. You may also use the Amp Manager feature on your
> MC-624 to reduce maximum output until a tolerable alternator temperature is
> maintained under all conditions.
>
>
>
> FMost LFP battery manufacturers specify minimum and maximum charging
> temperatures to be from freezing (32°F, 0°C) to around 111°F (44°C). Again,
> consult with your battery manufacturer for specifics. When equipped w

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

This is exactly why if I go lithium, the charging will work as follows:

Alternator > Start Battery > DC-DC Charger > Lithium Battery.

I also have the temp sensor on the alternator, which should help keep it from 
being roasted. That still doesn’t help with the issue of the BMS opening. 

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C&C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

 

 

 

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2022 9:38 AM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Bill Coleman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

 

Thank you for outing the hack, sometimes it is hard to know who to believe when 
something (like this) is not your area of expertise.

I just found this on my Balmar regulator instructions, which gives me pause . 
.. 

 

LFP LiFeP04 Recommendations

Our LFP program is a generalized version of the recommendations provided by the 
top LFP battery manufacturers. For best performance and compatibility, please 
consult your battery manufacturer and use the regulator’s advanced programming 
features to adjust the LFP program as needed. LFP batteries are more sensitive 
to abuse than a traditional chemistry battery and can fail catastrophically. It 
is HIGHLY recommended that the charging system as a whole be installed or 
inspected by a qualified marine electrical installer that has experience with 
Balmar charging system products and LFP batteries. The LFP profile is intended 
to work with the battery manufacturer’s battery management systems (BMS). The 
LFP profile IS NOT a replacement for a BMS.

 

*Many LiFePo4 batteries have a Battery Management System (BMS) that may 
disconnect the battery from the alternator as a protective action or when 
charging is complete. The regulator must be shut down before the battery is 
disconnected .Running an alternator without a battery will damage the 
alternator and may damage any attached system. This is doubly true if the 
battery can be disconnected during high current charging, causing a load dump. 
The load dump can easily cause a high voltage spike which will destroy the 
alternator’s rectifier, at minimum. This is not a warrantable failure. To 
reiterate: THE ALTERNATOR MUST BE SHUT DOWN BEFORE DISCONNECTING THE BATTERY. 
THE ONLY SAFE WAY TO SHUT DOWN THE ALTERNATOR IS TO TURN OFF THE REGULATOR. The 
preferred method of turning off the regulator is disconnecting the regulator’s 
ignition (brown) wire, but if used as an EMERGENCY ONLY shutdown, disconnecting 
the regulator’s power input (red) wire in addition to the ignition wire has a 
very low chance of damaging the regulator.

 

*LFP batteries will readily accept a damaging amount of current. Applying too 
much charge current to a LFP battery will, at the very least, permanently 
damage the battery’s capacity. It is CRITICAL to ensure that the alternator is 
not capable of exceeding the maximum continuous charge current rating of your 
battery (or batteries). As always, check with your battery manufacturer for 
specifics. Your battery manufacturer may supply you with a “C-rate” for 
charging and discharging. The maximum amount of charging current your battery 
can safely handle is determined by multiplying the “C-Rate” by the capacity of 
the bank. i.e. 4x 100Ah 12V batteries rated at 0.5C charge = 400 Ah * 0.5C = 
200amps MAX. If your alternator is capable of outputting more current, at any 
time or condition, than the battery (or batteries) can handle, you may use the 
Amp Manager feature on the MC-624 to lower the maximum field drive output, and 
thereby lower the maximum alternator output current. See page 10 of your 
regulator manual for details and instructions. Be aware that it is not an exact 
1:1 correlation between field output and alternator output, so start with more 
reduction (lower output) than you think you need and adjust accordingly.

 

*It is strongly recommended that an alternator temperature sensor (MC-TS-A) be 
used when charging LFP batteries. Given the extremely high charge acceptance 
rate of LFP batteries, the alternator will be driven to full output for almost 
all of the charge cycle. This can cause overheating in automotive style 
alternators resulting in a significantly shortened lifespan. When equipped with 
the MC-TS-A temperature sensor, the MC-624 will help you protect your 
investment by reducing the field voltage to your alternator by 50% when over 
the “AL1” temperature threshold. If you cannot use an MC-TS-A in your 
application, you should monitor the alternator’s temperature (measure as close 
to the loop ends of the stator as possible) and discontinue charging if the 
alternator temperature rises above the maximum recommended level. You may also 
use the Amp Manager feature on your MC-624 to reduce maximum output until a 
tolerable alternator temperature is maintained under all conditions.

 

*Most LFP battery manufacturers specify minimum and maximum charging 
temperatures to be from freezing (32°F, 0°C) to around 111°F (44°C). Again, 
consult with your battery man

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

Thank you for outing the hack, sometimes it is hard to know who to believe when 
something (like this) is not your area of expertise.

I just found this on my Balmar regulator instructions, which gives me pause . 
.. 

 

LFP LiFeP04 Recommendations

Our LFP program is a generalized version of the recommendations provided by the 
top LFP battery manufacturers. For best performance and compatibility, please 
consult your battery manufacturer and use the regulator’s advanced programming 
features to adjust the LFP program as needed. LFP batteries are more sensitive 
to abuse than a traditional chemistry battery and can fail catastrophically. It 
is HIGHLY recommended that the charging system as a whole be installed or 
inspected by a qualified marine electrical installer that has experience with 
Balmar charging system products and LFP batteries. The LFP profile is intended 
to work with the battery manufacturer’s battery management systems (BMS). The 
LFP profile IS NOT a replacement for a BMS.

 

FMany LiFePo4 batteries have a Battery Management System (BMS) that may 
disconnect the battery from the alternator as a protective action or when 
charging is complete. The regulator must be shut down before the battery is 
disconnected .Running an alternator without a battery will damage the 
alternator and may damage any attached system. This is doubly true if the 
battery can be disconnected during high current charging, causing a load dump. 
The load dump can easily cause a high voltage spike which will destroy the 
alternator’s rectifier, at minimum. This is not a warrantable failure. To 
reiterate: THE ALTERNATOR MUST BE SHUT DOWN BEFORE DISCONNECTING THE BATTERY. 
THE ONLY SAFE WAY TO SHUT DOWN THE ALTERNATOR IS TO TURN OFF THE REGULATOR. The 
preferred method of turning off the regulator is disconnecting the regulator’s 
ignition (brown) wire, but if used as an EMERGENCY ONLY shutdown, disconnecting 
the regulator’s power input (red) wire in addition to the ignition wire has a 
very low chance of damaging the regulator.

 

FLFP batteries will readily accept a damaging amount of current. Applying too 
much charge current to a LFP battery will, at the very least, permanently 
damage the battery’s capacity. It is CRITICAL to ensure that the alternator is 
not capable of exceeding the maximum continuous charge current rating of your 
battery (or batteries). As always, check with your battery manufacturer for 
specifics. Your battery manufacturer may supply you with a “C-rate” for 
charging and discharging. The maximum amount of charging current your battery 
can safely handle is determined by multiplying the “C-Rate” by the capacity of 
the bank. i.e. 4x 100Ah 12V batteries rated at 0.5C charge = 400 Ah * 0.5C = 
200amps MAX. If your alternator is capable of outputting more current, at any 
time or condition, than the battery (or batteries) can handle, you may use the 
Amp Manager feature on the MC-624 to lower the maximum field drive output, and 
thereby lower the maximum alternator output current. See page 10 of your 
regulator manual for details and instructions. Be aware that it is not an exact 
1:1 correlation between field output and alternator output, so start with more 
reduction (lower output) than you think you need and adjust accordingly.

 

FIt is strongly recommended that an alternator temperature sensor (MC-TS-A) be 
used when charging LFP batteries. Given the extremely high charge acceptance 
rate of LFP batteries, the alternator will be driven to full output for almost 
all of the charge cycle. This can cause overheating in automotive style 
alternators resulting in a significantly shortened lifespan. When equipped with 
the MC-TS-A temperature sensor, the MC-624 will help you protect your 
investment by reducing the field voltage to your alternator by 50% when over 
the “AL1” temperature threshold. If you cannot use an MC-TS-A in your 
application, you should monitor the alternator’s temperature (measure as close 
to the loop ends of the stator as possible) and discontinue charging if the 
alternator temperature rises above the maximum recommended level. You may also 
use the Amp Manager feature on your MC-624 to reduce maximum output until a 
tolerable alternator temperature is maintained under all conditions.

 

FMost LFP battery manufacturers specify minimum and maximum charging 
temperatures to be from freezing (32°F, 0°C) to around 111°F (44°C). Again, 
consult with your battery manufacturer for specifics. When equipped with a 
MC-TS-B, the MC-624 can disable charging if the battery temperature exceeds the 
“B1L” temperature threshold and re-enable charging when the temperature drops 
below the threshold. This feature is meant to supplement, not replace, your 
BMS’s temperature protection features. “B1L” should be adjusted to be slightly 
less than BMS’s temperature threshold. Note that the regulator does not have 
the capability to prevent charging during low temperatures.

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Batteries again

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

On paper the VMAX batteries look very good -actually a lot better than very 
good.
I would be pretty surprised if they can actually do what they claim, but I 
don’t know that they don’t. This brings up the main issue with these batteries, 
many of them get quite erratic reviews. You might get a good one or you might 
not. I would do some research before buying, see what you can find on the 
various forums.

Joe
Coquina

From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2022 10:15 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Batteries again

I am actually leaning toward the VMAX group 31, which I can buy directly from 
the company.  They are made in the US and Vietnam, appear to have good and 
complete specifications (cycling, design etc.).  I can get the Group 31 with 
135Ah for $349 vs. the Lifeline Group 31 which is 105 Ah for $428 from 
Defender.  It would be great if someone with more expertise looks at their data 
and see if I am missing something.  Dave

https://www.vmaxtanks.com/XTR31-135-12Volts-135AH-Deep-Cycle-XTREME-AGM-Battery-_p_176.html

https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?name=lifeline-agm-deep-cycle-marine-battery-(gpl-31t)&path=-1|328|2289954|2289956&id=152242

David Knecht
Rear Commodore
Thames Yacht Club
New London, CT




On May 26, 2022, at 11:11 PM, Korbey Hunt via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

I highly recommend Lifeline group 31

Get Outlook for Android

From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 9:40:31 AM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: j...@dellabarba.com 
mailto:j...@dellabarba.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: Batteries again

There is a lot of reason to be concerned about off brands. Pretty much all 
cycling batteries of the same size will be about the same AH rating. There is 
no magic in lead batteries, the AH per pound is pretty consistent.  What 
matters *hugely* is the number of cycles that they can endure before being 
trashed. The various cheap Chinese imports are highly variable to say the 
least, their reviews are all over the place. Lifeline is usually considered the 
best AGM maker.
FYI – Deka makes all the West Marine AGMs, you might call around your local 
battery shop and see what they charge. They are worse than Lifelines, but if 
they crap out after a week at least you can return them to the store 😉
Joe Della Barba
Coquina C&C 35 MK I
Kent Island MD USA






From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2022 11:25 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: David Knecht mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Batteries again


I have been following the battery discussion and have a question.  I need to 
replace my two 9 year old AGM batteries this season.  I have separate start and 
house batteries which can be combined if needed.  I don’t have large power 
needs (electronics, autopilot and fridge when cruising).  I have been reading 
and researching this and I am unsure of what to purchase.  From what I have 
read, AH is the important number to focus on.  Last time, I got Lifeline AGM 
group 27 from Defender.  Defender has 3 different group 27 batteries
Powertech rated at 92AH  which cost about $330
Lifeline  rated at 100AH for 432
Northstar   rated at 92AH for 457


From Amazon, I can get a VMAX group 27 with 100AH for $289 or a Universal with 
110 AH for $239.  Is there any reason to be concerned about less known (to me) 
brands from Amazon or does it make sense to just focus on the numbers?  Thanks- 
Dave


S/V Aries
1990 C&C 34+
New London, CT

Stus-List Re: Batteries again

[Riley Anderson via CnC-List]

Paul makes some good points but I want to remind everyone that there is no
such thing as a drop in replacement lithium battery for boats.
Accommodations must be made on the charge side. Charge profiles need to be
3 stage and specific to lithium chemistries. Also, you can do serious
damage to your alternator if you try hooking up a large lithium bank to a
small alternator. The internal resistance of lithium cells is so low, the
alternator will quickly burn out trying to supply the load. Additionally,
the drop in replacement type batteries pose an additional hazard in that a
high voltage disconnect would also destroy your alternator if precautions
are not taken.

One last gripe, the YouTuber, Will Prowse, is a hack. He is not an
engineer, nor an expert on lithium batteries. He is an expert in online
marketing. His business model is to promote the cheapest of products with
affiliate links so he gets a kickback of anything he mentions. People
always want cheap, and are fooled into believing they're getting cheap and
great when someone on the internet purports to be an expert.

On Thu, May 26, 2022, 3:24 PM Dreuge via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Dave,
>
> As I mentioned in previously replies to the list, it no longer makes any
> sense to buy lead acid batteries(i.e. flooded, gel, or AGM)  for a house
> bank.   For lead acid, the AH capacity is highly dependent on the current
> load due to the Peukert Effect.   Deep cycle lead acid batteries are rated
> at C/20.  For a 100AH rated battery, this is 100AH/20H = 5A.   This is
> often called the 20H rate, i.e.  5A * 20H = 100AH. If the actual load
> is 20A, then the same 100AH rated lead acid battery would only provide 60AH
> (or 10AH at 100A).  And worse, one should only use 50% of a lead acid
> battery’s capacity as going below 50% substantially degrades the battery
> lifetime.   This means that a 100AH lead acid battery has an effective 50AH
> @ 5A (or 30AH @ 20A).
>
> Let’s assume a 100AH lead acid battery price of $264 (the average of the
> Amazon prices), then 2 batteries would cost one $528 and one would get an
> effective 100AH (50%*200AH) at 5A loads.
>
> Now,  the price of LiFePO4 batteries have come way down in the last few
> years and their performance and lifetimes are a magnitude better.   A 100AH
> LiFePO4 battery is typically rated at 1C.  That is they can deliver 100AH
> at 100A for 1H(or 5A at 20H or 20A at 5H).  They can also charge at amps up
> to 100A which is impossible for a lead acid battery.   And LiFePO4
> batteries live 5 times longer.  That is,  one would expect to replace 5
> sets of lead acid batteries before replacing a LiFePO4 battery.Yes,
> LiFePO4 batteries are more complex as they require a battery management
> system (i.e. BMS), but there are companies which provide 12V drop in
> replacements with the BMS built internal to the battery.   Top companies
> like Battle Born sell a 100AH LiFePO4 for $874 and provide a 10yr warranty.
>   Renogy sells a 100AH LiFePO4 for $765.   A company, CurrentConnected.com, 
> sells
> a SOK 100AH LiFePO4 battery for $569 and it has a 10 yr warranty!
> YouTuber Will Prowse rates the SOK as the best value LiFePO4 12V drop in
> replacement (see https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/lithium-batteries.html).
> There are a plethora of cheaper 100AH LiFePO4 batteries that can be found
> on Amazon, Ebay, AliExpres, …, but one gets little service and limited
> warrantees,  so I would recommend avoiding these.
>
> Rather than buying 2 100AH lead acid batteries for $528 at a total weight
> of 140lbs(70lbs each) , one could just buy 1 100AH LiFePO4 for $569
> weighing only 28lbs and get a better performing battery.  That is basically
> the same price.   If one takes into account the increased lifetime, the
> saving is HUGE!
>
> If one builds their own DIY LiFePO4 battery, the savings is much much
> greater.   Last year I replaced 2 100AH lead acid batteries with one DIY
> 560AH LiFePO4 battery for a little over $900 (see my blog link below).  The
> DIY LiFePO4 battery occupies the same location and physical space as the
> previous 2 lead acid batteries, it weighs much less (95 lbs vs 125 lbs),
> but has 5 TIMES the capacity.
>
> I recently gave a talk on off-grid solar systems a local  amateur radio
> society meeting.  The discuss the battery as the heart of the system and
> make the case for LiFePO4 batteries.  My slides from the talk are available
> on my blog:
>
> https://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2021/10/solar-off-grid-system.html
>
>
> Also, the details of my DIY 560AH LiFePO4 are posted at the link below
> which includes details about alternator charging.
>
>
> https://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/2021/06/adding-new-lifepo4-to-house-battery.html
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Paul E.
> 1981 C&C Landfall 38
> S/V Johanna Rose
> Fort Walton Beach, FL
>
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
>
> On May 26, 2022, at 11:24 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> I have been following the battery discussio