Re: Stus-List Keel bolts comment/question
Did you try: Marine Museum of the Great Lakes at Kingston 53 Yonge Street, Kingston, Ontario K7M 6G4 613 542-2261 mana...@marmuseum.ca https://www.marmuseum.ca/ On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 at 22:43, Gregory Noye wrote: > Hi all, I would like to locate original drawings/ plans for a 1980c& c > land fall 38. I require them to put my vessel into survey here in New > Zealand . I have tried two Canadian maritime museums . > > thanks is in advance Gregory Noye > > On 13 February 2019 at 08:55 Rob Ball via CnC-List > wrote: > > All the C Keels have a safety factor of FIVE with the boat heeled 90 > degrees . . . . so that keel joint is pretty conservative. > > > > Cracks and ‘Smiles’ are normally the fiberglass bending (it is plastic > remember) outboard of the bolts and washers . . . > > > > The best thing to do (although we never did it) would be to have the > ‘washers’ the full *width* of the sump – to hold that corner down to the > keel top. You can’t get all the way, of course, but the farther (closer) > to the actual outboard corner, the better . . . > > > > *Rob Ball *C 34 > > > > *From:* Ken Heaton > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 12, 2019 2:39 PM > *To:* cnc-list > *Cc:* cenel...@aol.com; bwhitmore ; Rob Ball < > r...@edsonintl.com> > *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Keel bolts comment/question > > > > We had our keel off once a few years ago, to check the keel bolts, and to > do some repairs to the the keel sump where there had been some excessive > material removed in an earlier repair. Our keel weighs 7000 lbs but with > the nuts off, hanging on it own weight on just the bolts it didn't move at > all. Wedges were needed to break it loose and then a couple of very short > hydraulic jacks slipped into the gap to push the keel the rest of the way > off past the keel bolts. They tell me there was about 10,000 lbs. of > pressure on the jacks to push the keel bolts and keel down and off. > > > > That thing was not going to fall off on its own. ...and on examination > the keel bolts were perfect, not the slightest sign of crevice corrosion or > any other issues. > > > > Ken Heaton > S/V Salazar - Can 54955 > C 37/40 XL - Hull # 67 > Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia > > > > > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and > every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use > PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > > > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Keel bolts comment/question
All the C Keels have a safety factor of FIVE with the boat heeled 90 degrees . . . . so that keel joint is pretty conservative. Cracks and ‘Smiles’ are normally the fiberglass bending (it is plastic remember) outboard of the bolts and washers . . . The best thing to do (although we never did it) would be to have the ‘washers’ the full width of the sump – to hold that corner down to the keel top. You can’t get all the way, of course, but the farther (closer) to the actual outboard corner, the better . . . Rob Ball C 34 From: Ken Heaton Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2019 2:39 PM To: cnc-list Cc: cenel...@aol.com; bwhitmore ; Rob Ball Subject: Re: Stus-List Keel bolts comment/question We had our keel off once a few years ago, to check the keel bolts, and to do some repairs to the the keel sump where there had been some excessive material removed in an earlier repair. Our keel weighs 7000 lbs but with the nuts off, hanging on it own weight on just the bolts it didn't move at all. Wedges were needed to break it loose and then a couple of very short hydraulic jacks slipped into the gap to push the keel the rest of the way off past the keel bolts. They tell me there was about 10,000 lbs. of pressure on the jacks to push the keel bolts and keel down and off. That thing was not going to fall off on its own. ...and on examination the keel bolts were perfect, not the slightest sign of crevice corrosion or any other issues. Ken Heaton S/V Salazar - Can 54955 C 37/40 XL - Hull # 67 Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Keel bolts comment/question
We had our keel off once a few years ago, to check the keel bolts, and to do some repairs to the the keel sump where there had been some excessive material removed in an earlier repair. Our keel weighs 7000 lbs but with the nuts off, hanging on it own weight on just the bolts it didn't move at all. Wedges were needed to break it loose and then a couple of very short hydraulic jacks slipped into the gap to push the keel the rest of the way off past the keel bolts. They tell me there was about 10,000 lbs. of pressure on the jacks to push the keel bolts and keel down and off. That thing was not going to fall off on its own. ...and on examination the keel bolts were perfect, not the slightest sign of crevice corrosion or any other issues. Ken Heaton S/V Salazar - Can 54955 C 37/40 XL - Hull # 67 Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia https://c-c-37-40.blogspot.ca/p/salazar.html On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 at 14:32, bwhitmore via CnC-List wrote: > Thanks Rob! > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each > and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - > use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Keel bolts comment/question
Thanks Rob! Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone null___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Keel bolts comment/question
This was my experience when removing my keel. We had to “break it loose” when lifting the hull. Question for you Rob, my keel joint had epoxy for the keel stub/keel joint which I assumed was done by a PO when the bottom was peeled and epoxy coated. Was it actually done at the plant? Regards, Dave 1982 C 37 Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 12, 2019, at 13:11, Rob Ball via CnC-List > wrote: > > I have watched a number of keels removed from a hull. Most all the time the > epoxy held the keel when the nuts were removed. In fact there are special > wedges made to try to break it loose . . . . . It is a really tough job . . > . . > Bottom line, in my opinion, it will not matter whether the torquing is done > in or out of the water . . . . > > Rob Ball C 34 > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Keel bolts comment/question
I have watched a number of keels removed from a hull. Most all the time the epoxy held the keel when the nuts were removed. In fact there are special wedges made to try to break it loose . . . . . It is a really tough job . . . . Bottom line, in my opinion, it will not matter whether the torquing is done in or out of the water . . . . Rob Ball C 34 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Keel bolts comment/question
Hi Charlie, Sorry you have a leak. I believe you have a very unique centerboard version of the 34/36plus. I don't know if they ever made another. Anyway, can you see where the leak is coming from? Was the keel to hull joint showing when it was last on the hard? I would wait until the boat is on the hard to tighten keel bolts. I would want the weight of the keel supported and the weight of the hull resting properly on the keel, so gravity is your friend, compressing the joint for you. I wouldn't touch the system while in the water because in that state, gravity is trying to pull the 5000# keel off and if you snap a bolt, you may create a problem rather than solve one. Wild idea: Maybe take the boat to a dock that is deep at high tide, but when the tide goes out, the keel is aground, so you could use the mud to support the keel and tighten the keel bolts during the low tide with some hull weight pressing down on the joint. Fix the leak and float off on the high tide. If that doesn't fix the leak, I would try and schedule a short haulout to block the keel only, tighten the bolts you can get to and relaunch to see if that fixed the leak. If it doesn't, pull the mast so you can tighten those bolts, relaunch to see if that fixes the leak. If it doesn't, haul the boat again and drop the keel to reseal the joint. Be sure the boatyard catches the keel properly with large blocks positioned under the keel and no further aft than the end of the joint. Since our keels sweep back, don't let them block it further back where it could cause extra leverage and actually open the smile up front. And don't let them support the boat from the end of the bulb or wings. I've seen keels supported too far back when it's easy to do it properly. The stands are meant to support 10% of the weight so 90% is on the keel. I also like to see it level and plumb to best support everything. Chuck, Resolute, 1990 C 34R > On February 11, 2019 at 1:18 PM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List > wrote: > > I am not an engineer in any sense of the word but perhaps someone on the > list can critique these thoughts of mine: > > Keel bolts can be tightened on the hard (while resting on the keel) or in > the water while the keel is hanging from the bolts. > > I suspect the job would be considerably easier (assuming the bolts are > loose) it one did not have to lift the keel with the torque wrench while > tightening the bolts--at least until the keel has met the stub. > > The torque numbers recommended are presumably set by the > manufacturer/designer to provide enough pressure between the keel stub and > keel surface for both absolute stability in all directions of potential > motion (pitch, yaw and roll?) as well as to seal this joint against water > intrusion (along with some sealing compound). > > OTOH, after this torque number is reached further tightening is likely > counter-productive since it is either pulling the keel bolt out of the soft > lead of the keel, driving the nut/washer down through the stub or stripping > the bolt or nut threads--none of which is desirable. > > Assuming the above makes sense, as long as the recommended torque is > reached but not seriously exceeded, it seems the bolts can be tightened in > the water or out, hanging from the keel stub or resting on the keel, as long > as the recommended torque is reached. > > I have a practical reason for a list critique of this: > > I have a small water leak somewhere between my cb trunk/keel and the cb > trunk/keel stub that I noticed just before the boat was splashed back in > October but too late to fix then. > > My keel bolts have never been tightened. > > The boat will not be on the hard again until late summer of 2019. > > I am considering tightening the bolts I can reach to some > specification--but a few are under the mast to which some of the purchase for > the cb is also attached. Thus reaching all of them would require pulling the > mast AND undoing this cb purchase--which for me is best done by the yard this > summer. > > My question: should I tighten the bolts I can reach now or > forget-about-it until the yard can do it. > > > > > Charlie Nelson > Water Phantom > 1995 C 36 XL/kcb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each > and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use > PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
