Re: Stus-List Survey About Racing
Comments below Michael Brown Windburn C 30-1 From: Randy Stafford To: cnc-list Sent: 6/27/2019 10:16 AM Subject: Stus-List Survey About Racing Hello Listers, I’d like to conduct a little survey about racing, tapping into the broad experience, geography, and boat diversity represented on this list. What prompted this is a discussion in my club about ratings, which expanded into a discussion about courses, tactics, and relative performance. I’d like to get perspective from the collective knowledge on this list, to add into that discussion. So here are some fairly objective survey questions, for those of you who race your boats: 1. Where do you race? Lake Ontario 2. What wind conditions are the rule and exception there? 6 - 14 knots in the spring. Lots of light or dead air in the summer. Frequent storms, squalls may hit 40 - 60 knots briefly. When the lake is cold there can be wind shear. 3. What kind of courses do you sail? W/L club races and at regattas, short ( < 20 nm ) medium ( < 100 nm ) and one long ( Lake Ontario 300 ) course race, 4. What sail plan do you fly? Mainly flying sail. 195% spinnakers both asymm and symm from a pole. 5. What model of boat are you racing? C 30-1 < 506 6. What PHRF rating do you race with? (please list adjustments) PHRF-LO FS: 175 NFS: 199 credit of 4 sec/mile for the main, -3 sec/mile penalty for 195% spin. Note that PHRF-LO adjusts based on main sail area but calculates the standard area using a default with lots of roach. My main does touch the backstay, lightly hangs up on tacks. 7. What is your boat’s fastest point of sail? Surfing under spinnaker. The C 30-1 is difficult to get over hull speed so even reaching at 30+ knots doesn't get close to planning ;-) 8. Is there leapfrogging in your races, or do boat-for-boat positions stay fairly constant? Some of the division have a wide rating spread, the fast boats pull ahead and stay there. With light summer wind and the random wind hole lead reversals are common. 9. How many boats are you usually competing against? As little as 4, as much as 11. 10. In general, how well do you perform in racing results? Windburn even for a C 30-1 is heavy. We are disadvantaged in light air, do well in heavy air. As a guess 75% of the time we are in the top 3. On our best days we have taken first at the Youngstown Levels, Lake Ontario 300 and LOSHRS races. And now a few more subjective questions: 11. Do you think your boat’s rating assumes you’ll race it on a particular kind of course with a particular sail plan? PHRF-LO states that the rating is suitable ( paraphrasing it here ) for windward leeward course of one mile legs in winds of 4 to 18 knots. No data from triangular or course racing is analyzed for rating reviews. 12. How do you think your local rating authority determines the rating for your boat? Initially a new boat ( class ) goes through an assessment at a handicapper's district meeting. We discuss everything including US PHRF data, sister classes and comparable. We make a best estimate then the rating is adjusted by -6 sec/mile "Protect The Fleet" for the first year until race data is available. 13. What do you think are the most important factors in your performance against your competition? Making the best of a heavy C 30-1. Recently the addition of North Sails 3Di 155% raw genoa and main has helped a lot in the light wind. 14. What do you think are the most important race tactics for beating your competition? Calling lay lines, watching for shifts, avoiding wind holes Thank you very much in advance for your responses to this survey. Best Regards, Randy Stafford S/V Grenadine C 30-1 #7 Ken Caryl, CO ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Survey About Racing
Read Dennis Conner “no excuse to lose” On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 12:55 PM Ian Matthew via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > Randy > > Here's my information > 1. Where do you race? > San Francisco Bay > 2. What wind conditions are the rule and exception there? > Summer - Westerly winds up to 30 knots (every afternoon) in the summer - a > lot lighter and more variable October - February > 3. What kind of courses do you sail? > All sorts - I prefer the longer races > 4. What sail plan do you fly? > Main, #3 jib (110%) usually in the summer, #1 (155%) in the lighter winds, > spinnaker > 5. What model of boat are you racing? > C 29 mk 1 > 6. What PHRF rating do you race with? (please list adjustments) > 174 > 7. What is your boat’s fastest point of sail? > Most competitive on very broad reach to run. Upwind is a struggle in the > high winds, but I play the currents well. > 8. Is there leapfrogging in your races, or do boat-for-boat positions stay > fairly constant? > Depends - I usually do a lot of catching up off the wind > 9. How many boats are you usually competing against? > club racing: 5-10, inter-club racing on the bay: 50-150. Most I have > raced against is 350 (Three Bridge Fiasco in January) > 10. In general, how well do you perform in racing results? > Usually on the podium > > And now a few more subjective questions: > > 11. Do you think your boat’s rating assumes you’ll race it on a particular > kind of course with a particular sail plan? > Well yes!! I race against Newport 30's , Olson 25's, J-24's and a Cal 34 > Mk 1 which is rated 174. (He has me easily upwind and I overtake him > downwind!!) > 12. How do you think your local rating authority determines the rating for > your boat? > The NCPHRF is a good committee and I think they do a really good job.The > committee includes well known racers such as Seadon Wijsen, Jim Antrim, > Stan Honey and Kame Richards (Pineapple Sails) > 13. What do you think are the most important factors in your performance > against your competition? > Tactics!! Good start, playing the currents and being aggressive on my > competitors downwind. I have a superb crew that can handle the spinnaker > really well. Takedowns occur inside 2 boatlengths of the leeward mark. > 14. What do you think are the most important race tactics for beating your > competition? > Being smart - thinking ahead. And race preparation, studying the wind > forecast and knowing what the currents are going to do. The San Francisco > Bay is a very technical race zone. > > Hope this helps you. > -- > Ian Matthew > "Siento el Viento" C 29-1 > San Francisco Bay > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each > and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - > use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > > -- Sent from Gmail Mobile ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Survey About Racing
Randy Here's my information 1. Where do you race? San Francisco Bay 2. What wind conditions are the rule and exception there? Summer - Westerly winds up to 30 knots (every afternoon) in the summer - a lot lighter and more variable October - February 3. What kind of courses do you sail? All sorts - I prefer the longer races 4. What sail plan do you fly? Main, #3 jib (110%) usually in the summer, #1 (155%) in the lighter winds, spinnaker 5. What model of boat are you racing? C 29 mk 1 6. What PHRF rating do you race with? (please list adjustments) 174 7. What is your boat’s fastest point of sail? Most competitive on very broad reach to run. Upwind is a struggle in the high winds, but I play the currents well. 8. Is there leapfrogging in your races, or do boat-for-boat positions stay fairly constant? Depends - I usually do a lot of catching up off the wind 9. How many boats are you usually competing against? club racing: 5-10, inter-club racing on the bay: 50-150. Most I have raced against is 350 (Three Bridge Fiasco in January) 10. In general, how well do you perform in racing results? Usually on the podium And now a few more subjective questions: 11. Do you think your boat’s rating assumes you’ll race it on a particular kind of course with a particular sail plan? Well yes!! I race against Newport 30's , Olson 25's, J-24's and a Cal 34 Mk 1 which is rated 174. (He has me easily upwind and I overtake him downwind!!) 12. How do you think your local rating authority determines the rating for your boat? The NCPHRF is a good committee and I think they do a really good job.The committee includes well known racers such as Seadon Wijsen, Jim Antrim, Stan Honey and Kame Richards (Pineapple Sails) 13. What do you think are the most important factors in your performance against your competition? Tactics!! Good start, playing the currents and being aggressive on my competitors downwind. I have a superb crew that can handle the spinnaker really well. Takedowns occur inside 2 boatlengths of the leeward mark. 14. What do you think are the most important race tactics for beating your competition? Being smart - thinking ahead. And race preparation, studying the wind forecast and knowing what the currents are going to do. The San Francisco Bay is a very technical race zone. Hope this helps you. -- Ian Matthew "Siento el Viento" C 29-1 San Francisco Bay ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Survey About Racing
Thank you Don, very helpful. Cheers, Randy > On Jul 16, 2019, at 6:17 PM, Don Kern wrote: > > > > On 6/27/2019 10:16 AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List wrote: >> Hello Listers, I’d like to conduct a little survey about racing, tapping >> into the broad experience, geography, and boat diversity represented on this >> list. What prompted this is a discussion in my club about ratings, which >> expanded into a discussion about courses, tactics, and relative performance. >> I’d like to get perspective from the collective knowledge on this list, to >> add into that discussion. So here are some fairly objective survey >> questions, for those of you who race your boats: > 1. Where do you race? Narragansett Bay, Buzzards Bay, Long Island Sound > > 2. What wind conditions are the rule and exception there? 12 to 18 kts Spring > & Fall , 5-10 kts late Jul to mid Aug Note: all three regions experience > Tidal Currents up to 4 kts > > 3. What kind of courses do you sail? Round the nav buoys > > 4. What sail plan do you fly? Main, Genoa, sym Spin > > 5. What model of boat are you racing? C Mk-2 (1974) > > 6. What PHRF rating do you race with? (please list adjustments) PHRF-NB > 134/156 (Base 126, Genoa+2, Main +9 (boom 2' short), Misc -3 (6' draft)) > PHRF-ECSA (OSC) 126/148 (Base 123, Main+6, LP of J +1, pole Spin g/spl -1, > Keel mod -3) > > 7. What is your boat’s fastest point of sail? Reaching > > 8. Is there leapfrogging in your races, or do boat-for-boat positions stay > fairly constant? Very dependent on wind conditions especially in July Aug > where boats can sail into a hole and one has to very aware of current > patterns in the light air > > 9. How many boats are you usually competing against? 10 to 18 in starting > class > > 10. In general, how well do you perform in racing results? Usually top three > > And now a few more subjective questions: > > 11. Do you think your boat’s rating assumes you’ll race it on a particular > kind of course with a particular sail plan? PHRF-NB rates boats for around > the buoys racing. the rating assumes a specific sail and hull plan - > modifications from standard are adjusted, Sails are rated for both bigger > and smaller than normal. Most clubs in the area scoring is done using Time > on Time calculation method. > > 12. How do you think your local rating authority determines the rating for > your boat? By boat/class ie; C Mk2. (Only three C Mk2 still racing on > Narr. Bay; 2 offshore racers one Narra Bay only) My rating has been fairly > consistent for the last 35 yrs slowly increasing, no big jumps, incrementally > +1 every few years = boats older, i am older, we are getting slower > > If a specific boat competitor is doing extremely well the rating committee > will look at boat modifications, boat preparation (who did the bottom, wet or > dry sanded, how often cleaned), sail material, age of sails, crew experience > (we have world class sailors racing here) and if needed make an adjustment. > If the boat was optimally prepared, with no modifications, and is getting 1st > 2nd and 3rds and the crew is semi professional (lots of sail lofts and boat > builders/designers here) they will leave the rating as is. If the boat was > not optionally prepared they will look for modifications and adjust > accordingly. The rating is for the boat, not for the crew, tactics nor > sailing knowledge. > > That said, there is adjustment by some of the clubs (Off Soundings, Twenty > Hundred) to level the winners and give others a chance to win by imposing a > Burden of Winning (BOW) penalty. In the Off Soundings series for achieving > 1st, 2nd and 3rd place you will receive Performance Penalty Points factor of > 3, 2 or 1 respectively where each point equals 8 seconds. BOW Penalties > points do accumulate to a maximum factor of 9 points and expire after 3 > yearly series. For the Twenty Hundred Club series if you place in 1st, 2nd > or 3rd position you receive a penalty which subtracts from your race rating > 15 sec/mile, 10 sec/mile or 5 sec/mile for first, second or third > respectively. This penalty is only imposed the for that series in the > following year. > > 13. What do you think are the most important factors in your performance > against your competition? Crew work, the correct sail choice, a good start, > knowing the venue (wind & water), and knowing the boat's polars > > 14. What do you think are the most important race tactics for beating your > competition? Good start - on the line moving at speed, If ahead do not let > nearest competitors split, If following clear your air and take advantage of > current and wind shifts. > > Don Kern > Fireball C Mk2 > Bristol, RI > > > Thank you very much in advance for your responses to this survey. Best > Regards, Randy Stafford S/V Grenadine C 30-1 #7 Ken Caryl, CO > ___ Thanks everyone for > supporting
Re: Stus-List Survey About Racing
> On Jun 27, 2019, at 10:16 AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List > wrote: > > Hello Listers, > > I’d like to conduct a little survey about racing, tapping into the broad > experience, geography, and boat diversity represented on this list. > > What prompted this is a discussion in my club about ratings, which expanded > into a discussion about courses, tactics, and relative performance. I’d like > to get perspective from the collective knowledge on this list, to add into > that discussion. > > So here are some fairly objective survey questions, for those of you who race > your boats: > > 1. Where do you race? New London, CT > 2. What wind conditions are the rule and exception there? 8-12 > 3. What kind of courses do you sail? W/L > 4. What sail plan do you fly Main and Genoa > 5. What model of boat are you racing? C 34+ > 6. What PHRF rating do you race with? (please list adjustments) 121 (non spinnaker, feathering prop, roller furling) > 7. What is your boat’s fastest point of sail? reach > 8. Is there leapfrogging in your races, or do boat-for-boat positions stay > fairly constant? fairly constant > 9. How many boats are you usually competing against? 3-6 > 10. In general, how well do you perform in racing results? Top 3 > > And now a few more subjective questions: > > 11. Do you think your boat’s rating assumes you’ll race it on a particular > kind of course with a particular sail plan? No > 12. How do you think your local rating authority determines the rating for > your boat? Base rating from historical plus adjustments. Nothing specific to the boat or crew > 13. What do you think are the most important factors in your performance > against your competition? Experience. We have gotten faster each year as we learn to make the boat go. The biggest jump was new laminated main and jib last year and a sailmaker who told me how to optimize sail trim. Getting a whisker pole also was a big jump in downwind performance. > 14. What do you think are the most important race tactics for beating your > competition? Good starts and then going to the correct side of the course. Bad start puts you in dirty air making it even harder to recover from the bad start. We start in a fairly narrow channel and wind and tide can be quite different in different places depending on wind direction. Also, getting the boat up to speed as quickly as possible instead of trying to pinch relative to the competition. > > Thank you very much in advance for your responses to this survey. > > Best Regards, > Randy Stafford > S/V Grenadine > C 30-1 #7 > Ken Caryl, CO > ___ > > Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and > every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use > PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > Dr. David Knecht Professor of Molecular and Cell Biology University of Connecticut 91 N. Eagleville Rd. Storrs, CT 06269-3125 ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Survey About Racing
On 6/27/2019 10:16 AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List wrote: Hello Listers, I’d like to conduct a little survey about racing, tapping into the broad experience, geography, and boat diversity represented on this list. What prompted this is a discussion in my club about ratings, which expanded into a discussion about courses, tactics, and relative performance. I’d like to get perspective from the collective knowledge on this list, to add into that discussion. So here are some fairly objective survey questions, for those of you who race your boats: 1. Where do you race? Narragansett Bay, Buzzards Bay, Long Island Sound 2. What wind conditions are the rule and exception there? 12 to 18 kts Spring & Fall , 5-10 kts late Jul to mid Aug Note: all three regions experience Tidal Currents up to 4 kts 3. What kind of courses do you sail? Round the nav buoys 4. What sail plan do you fly? Main, Genoa, sym Spin 5. What model of boat are you racing? C Mk-2 (1974) 6. What PHRF rating do you race with? (please list adjustments) PHRF-NB 134/156 (Base 126, Genoa+2, Main +9 (boom 2' short), Misc -3 (6' draft)) PHRF-ECSA (OSC) 126/148 (Base 123, Main+6, LP of J +1, pole Spin g/spl -1, Keel mod -3) 7. What is your boat’s fastest point of sail? Reaching 8. Is there leapfrogging in your races, or do boat-for-boat positions stay fairly constant? Very dependent on wind conditions especially in July Aug where boats can sail into a hole and one has to very aware of current patterns in the light air 9. How many boats are you usually competing against? 10 to 18 in starting class 10. In general, how well do you perform in racing results? Usually top three And now a few more subjective questions: 11. Do you think your boat’s rating assumes you’ll race it on a particular kind of course with a particular sail plan? PHRF-NB rates boats for around the buoys racing. the rating assumes a specific sail and hull plan - modifications from standard are adjusted, Sails are rated for both bigger and smaller than normal. Most clubs in the area scoring is done using Time on Time calculation method. 12. How do you think your local rating authority determines the rating for your boat? By boat/class ie; C Mk2. (Only three C Mk2 still racing on Narr. Bay; 2 offshore racers one Narra Bay only) My rating has been fairly consistent for the last 35 yrs slowly increasing, no big jumps, incrementally +1 every few years = boats older, i am older, we are getting slower If a specific boat competitor is doing extremely well the rating committee will look at boat modifications, boat preparation (who did the bottom, wet or dry sanded, how often cleaned), sail material, age of sails, crew experience (we have world class sailors racing here) and if needed make an adjustment. If the boat was optimally prepared, with no modifications, and is getting 1st 2nd and 3rds and the crew is semi professional (lots of sail lofts and boat builders/designers here) they will leave the rating as is. If the boat was not optionally prepared they will look for modifications and adjust accordingly. The rating is for the boat, not for the crew, tactics nor sailing knowledge. That said, there is adjustment by some of the clubs (Off Soundings, Twenty Hundred) to level the winners and give others a chance to win by imposing a Burden of Winning (BOW) penalty. In the Off Soundings series for achieving 1st, 2nd and 3rd place you will receive Performance Penalty Points factor of 3, 2 or 1 respectively where each point equals 8 seconds. BOW Penalties points do accumulate to a maximum factor of 9 points and expire after 3 yearly series. For the Twenty Hundred Club series if you place in 1st, 2nd or 3rd position you receive a penalty which subtracts from your race rating 15 sec/mile, 10 sec/mile or 5 sec/mile for first, second or third respectively. This penalty is only imposed the for that series in the following year. 13. What do you think are the most important factors in your performance against your competition? Crew work, the correct sail choice, a good start, knowing the venue (wind & water), and knowing the boat's polars 14. What do you think are the most important race tactics for beating your competition? Good start - on the line moving at speed, If ahead do not let nearest competitors split, If following clear your air and take advantage of current and wind shifts. Don Kern /Firebal//l /C Mk2 Bristol, RI Thank you very much in advance for your responses to this survey. Best Regards, Randy Stafford S/V Grenadine C 30-1 #7 Ken Caryl, CO ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your
Re: Stus-List Survey About Racing
1. Where do you race? Nova Scotia. Mostly Halifax Harbour and Approaches. 2. What wind conditions are the rule and exception there? Evening races in summer 10 knots SW. Spring windier and more from North 3. What kind of courses do you sail? Mostly WL but RC now throwing in a reaching leg approx. every 2nd race 4. What sail plan do you fly? Full inventory. 155 genoa, 140 genoa, 100 jib, sym spin, main 5. What model of boat are you racing? Frers 33 6. What PHRF rating do you race with? (please list adjustments) 114 7. What is your boat’s fastest point of sail? Downwind reach apparent wind just aft of beam 8. Is there leapfrogging in your races, or do boat-for-boat positions stay fairly constant? Yes. Which side of course you pick makes a huge difference 9. How many boats are you usually competing against? 15 – 16 in our class on good night 10-12 on other nights 10. In general, how well do you perform in racing results? Top 5 most nights And now a few more subjective questions: 11. Do you think your boat’s rating assumes you’ll race it on a particular kind of course with a particular sail plan? PHRF is designed for triangle courses. Our boat rating favours WL a bit 12. How do you think your local rating authority determines the rating for your boat? We use 5 comparison areas with similar wind conditions and fleet makeup. Average of those areas for a rating for a model new to area. Reviews use median back corrected rating in area regattas. Boat must be consistently sailing 12 or more sec/mile faster than rating to even be considered for a change. Any further questions contact me directly as I am very involved in this 13. What do you think are the most important factors in your performance against your competition? Boat prep, crew work and going the right way 14. What do you think are the most important race tactics for beating your competition? Getting clean air and sailing where the wind and currents are most favourable ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Re: Stus-List Survey About Racing
Survey monkey might make this survey easier! Charlie Nelson -Original Message- From: Randy Stafford via CnC-List To: cnc-list Cc: Randy Stafford Sent: Thu, Jun 27, 2019 10:17 am Subject: Stus-List Survey About Racing Hello Listers, I’d like to conduct a little survey about racing, tapping into the broad experience, geography, and boat diversity represented on this list. What prompted this is a discussion in my club about ratings, which expanded into a discussion about courses, tactics, and relative performance. I’d like to get perspective from the collective knowledge on this list, to add into that discussion. So here are some fairly objective survey questions, for those of you who race your boats: 1. Where do you race? 2. What wind conditions are the rule and exception there? 3. What kind of courses do you sail? 4. What sail plan do you fly? 5. What model of boat are you racing? 6. What PHRF rating do you race with? (please list adjustments) 7. What is your boat’s fastest point of sail? 8. Is there leapfrogging in your races, or do boat-for-boat positions stay fairly constant? 9. How many boats are you usually competing against? 10. In general, how well do you perform in racing results? And now a few more subjective questions: 11. Do you think your boat’s rating assumes you’ll race it on a particular kind of course with a particular sail plan? 12. How do you think your local rating authority determines the rating for your boat? 13. What do you think are the most important factors in your performance against your competition? 14. What do you think are the most important race tactics for beating your competition? Thank you very much in advance for your responses to this survey. Best Regards, Randy Stafford S/V Grenadine C 30-1 #7 Ken Caryl, CO ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray ___ Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions. Each and every one is greatly appreciated. If you want to support the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
