Re: Stus-List handicap for after market sprits
Hi Ryan, Locally they gave an adjustment to furlers, and gave the same credit to anyone w a furler, above deck, under deck, Melges, J-105, etc. And many people kept the credit even when they used a sail that didn't furl. Does Scapa have a sprit? How much did they adjust your handicap? Chuck - Original Message - From: "Ryan Raber via CnC-List" To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 11:45:45 AM Subject: Stus-List handicap for after market sprits Peat, This Email below is from my FH in NE but the implementation of the rule was delayed for public comment from our members. Essentially the new matrix adds three seconds to my old rating (IMX40) with the same configuration. There was an extensive study done that revealed asymmetrical spinnakers have been able to rotate further to Windward to allow deeper downwind angles then the initial rating system accounted for this?? Other members don't understand why boats that were built with Sprint are not penalized or adjusted the same as the boats with sprint added to them after-the-fact? Our PHRF region has two main groups one more competitive group in the Marblehead area and one less competitive group comprised of older vessels in Maine. The boats in MH are 70-80% AS in the race fleet. There are a group of older WELL maintained (Nelson Mrek,Frers, Taylor, and a newer 36.7 beny) that go SM and class 5/6 are SM. but all the big boats that are racing have purchase or converted their boat to AS. And of course all the new one design fleets are asymmetrical j70…. In Maine its SM except for the j/105’s and we have limited participation from a few AS Race boats Farr395, 1D35, Swan club 42… There are 2 conversion sprit boats participating in Maine next year IMX40 and a Farr43. I feel that asymmetrical is the way of the future easier to sail and more fun. go at least 20% or their pain to jibe. The new matrix proposed is provided in the table below: D/L=(dis (lbs.)/2240)/((0.01*WLL(ft))3) %=J*X for sprint length # are adjustment to your rating D/L bow 10% 20% 30% >220 9 6 3 0 150-220 6 3 0 -3 100-150 3 0 -3 -6 >100 0 -3 -6 -9 Good morning Ryan Yes, I was there and a new rule has been passed for 2015. The heart of the issue, as you probably already know, is that for a number of years boats which changed from a symmetrical spin to an asym were given a credit of up to 9 sec/mile. PHRFNE is finally recognizing that the credit was a mistake in some cases. I don't know how it will impact your handicap because I don't have access to the 2014 cert for your boat (I can access only those boats that were in the GMORA fleet in 2014). But the rule is essentially based on the ratio of your displacement to LWL. Then depending on that ratio and the length of your sprit relative to the J measurement, you may see a reduced spinnaker credit of 3, 6 or 9 sec/mile. By the way, the displacement used will be based on an empty boat and that number may not be what is on the boat's 2014 certificate. PHRFNE will be publishing, shortly, an explanation of the new rule in layman's terms so that you can understand what has transpired. I recognize that the above has probably created more questions than answers but more will follow soon. Ryan Raber 207.841.7881 r...@fvprovidian.net ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album. Please donate to the C&C Photo Album to keep this list free for all subscribers. Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album. Please donate to the C&C Photo Album to keep this list free for all subscribers. Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List handicap for after market sprits
I checked with our local CBYRA handicapper. Chesapeake Bay rates asyms more by sail area than any other single criteria. The other adjustment area is whether the sail can be adjusted From some local racers: we have three Cal 40s's here on the mid-Eastern Shore. All three do off-shore racing (Newport to Bermuda, etc.) and do quite well (second last year, fourth in 2000, etc.) They got dinged 3 seconds when they added an asym to their inventory, because they have the capability of flying it on their pole. The usual rule is: if they have an asym on a short fixed pole or flying from the bow, and it isn't a bunch bigger than their normal spinnaker dimensions, then the penalty may be 0 or 3-6 seconds depending on sail area. A local C&C 115 with a longer than normal pole also gets 3 seconds. He flies his asym from the pole, so can bring it back when sailing downwind. Any other situations (like the IMX40 which added a carbon extendable pole which goes out about 8-10 feet) get treated individually. Gary LMPHRF, our local handicap governing body, is making adjustments to the credit and penalties of handicaps for displacement hull boats that fly asyms, with and without the addition of sprits. I'm interested in what other regions are using for regs, amount of participation, and observations of performance changes. Thanks for your help. Pete ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album. Please donate to the C&C Photo Album to keep this list free for all subscribers. Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album. Please donate to the C&C Photo Album to keep this list free for all subscribers. Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List handicap for after market sprits
I have a large asym - foot is 28 feet-, and CBYRA did not change my rating. Don't know what the threshold is for "large", but it is REALLY large! Joel 35/3 Annapolis On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Gary Nylander via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > I checked with our local CBYRA handicapper. Chesapeake Bay rates asyms > more by sail area than any other single criteria. The other adjustment area > is whether the sail can be adjusted > > From some local racers: we have three Cal 40s's here on the mid-Eastern > Shore. All three do off-shore racing (Newport to Bermuda, etc.) and do > quite well (second last year, fourth in 2000, etc.) They got dinged 3 > seconds when they added an asym to their inventory, because they have the > capability of flying it on their pole. > > The usual rule is: if they have an asym on a short fixed pole or flying > from the bow, and it isn't a bunch bigger than their normal spinnaker > dimensions, then the penalty may be 0 or 3-6 seconds depending on sail area. > > A local C&C 115 with a longer than normal pole also gets 3 seconds. He > flies his asym from the pole, so can bring it back when sailing downwind. > > Any other situations (like the IMX40 which added a carbon extendable pole > which goes out about 8-10 feet) get treated individually. > > Gary > > LMPHRF, our local handicap governing body, is making adjustments to the >> credit and penalties of handicaps for displacement hull boats that fly >> asyms, with and without the addition of sprits. >> >> I'm interested in what other regions are using for regs, amount of >> participation, and observations of performance changes. >> >> Thanks for your help. >> >> Pete >> >> >> >> ___ >> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album. >> >> Please donate to the C&C Photo Album to keep this list free for all >> subscribers. >> >> Email address: >> CnC-List@cnc-list.com >> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of >> page at: >> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com >> >> >> > > > ___ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album. > > Please donate to the C&C Photo Album to keep this list free for all > subscribers. > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of > page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album. Please donate to the C&C Photo Album to keep this list free for all subscribers. Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List handicap for after market sprits
Joel, PHRF spinnaker limits are generally mid-girth of 180% of J, so you are beyond the range for a "normal" size (~205%) - lucky you. Tim On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 8:02 AM, Joel Aronson via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > I have a large asym - foot is 28 feet-, and CBYRA did not change my > rating. Don't know what the threshold is for "large", but it is REALLY > large! > > Joel > 35/3 > Annapolis > > On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Gary Nylander via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > >> I checked with our local CBYRA handicapper. Chesapeake Bay rates asyms >> more by sail area than any other single criteria. The other adjustment area >> is whether the sail can be adjusted >> >> From some local racers: we have three Cal 40s's here on the mid-Eastern >> Shore. All three do off-shore racing (Newport to Bermuda, etc.) and do >> quite well (second last year, fourth in 2000, etc.) They got dinged 3 >> seconds when they added an asym to their inventory, because they have the >> capability of flying it on their pole. >> >> The usual rule is: if they have an asym on a short fixed pole or flying >> from the bow, and it isn't a bunch bigger than their normal spinnaker >> dimensions, then the penalty may be 0 or 3-6 seconds depending on sail area. >> >> A local C&C 115 with a longer than normal pole also gets 3 seconds. He >> flies his asym from the pole, so can bring it back when sailing downwind. >> >> Any other situations (like the IMX40 which added a carbon extendable pole >> which goes out about 8-10 feet) get treated individually. >> >> Gary >> >> LMPHRF, our local handicap governing body, is making adjustments to the >>> credit and penalties of handicaps for displacement hull boats that fly >>> asyms, with and without the addition of sprits. >>> >>> I'm interested in what other regions are using for regs, amount of >>> participation, and observations of performance changes. >>> >>> Thanks for your help. >>> >>> Pete >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album. >>> >>> Please donate to the C&C Photo Album to keep this list free for all >>> subscribers. >>> >>> Email address: >>> CnC-List@cnc-list.com >>> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of >>> page at: >>> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ___ >> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album. >> >> Please donate to the C&C Photo Album to keep this list free for all >> subscribers. >> >> Email address: >> CnC-List@cnc-list.com >> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of >> page at: >> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com >> >> > > > -- > Joel > 301 541 8551 > > ___ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album. > > Please donate to the C&C Photo Album to keep this list free for all > subscribers. > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of > page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > > ___ This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album. Please donate to the C&C Photo Album to keep this list free for all subscribers. Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List handicap for after market sprits
This list is provided by the C&C Photo Album and is free to subscribed members. Please help us keep it free by donating today at: http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/chandlery_2/store.php?crn=226&rn=428&action=show_detail ___ That is total BS. Not The intent of the ruling at all. http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping/handicap_adjustments No sprit on the C&C, it's to heavy in my opinion to benefit from a sprint. The faster the boat the better the AW angel so the A-kite can get out in clear air from the main. That's a big source of controversy though I could be wrong. The 34r serve me well down wind. Up wind tougher game. The IMX has a 20% sprit and a 3sec Credit, d/l is around 165. I'm probably going to lose that 3sec credit with the new rules proposed for next year. It was 1st at the ONE against all A-boat last year in D2. Ryan Raber 207.841.7881 > On Jan 20, 2015, at 7:48 PM, Chuck S wrote: > > Hi Ryan, > Locally they gave an adjustment to furlers, and gave the same credit to > anyone w a furler, above deck, under deck, Melges, J-105, etc. And many > people kept the credit even when they used a sail that didn't furl. > > Does Scapa have a sprit? How much did they adjust your handicap? > > Chuck > > > > > From: "Ryan Raber via CnC-List" > To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 11:45:45 AM > Subject: Stus-List handicap for after market sprits > > Peat, This Email below is from my FH in NE but the implementation of the > rule was delayed for public comment from our members. Essentially the new > matrix adds three seconds to my old rating (IMX40) with the same > configuration. There was an extensive study done that revealed asymmetrical > spinnakers have been able to rotate further to Windward to allow deeper > downwind angles then the initial rating system accounted for this?? Other > members don't understand why boats that were built with Sprint are not > penalized or adjusted the same as the boats with sprint added to them > after-the-fact? Our PHRF region has two main groups one more competitive > group in the Marblehead area and one less competitive group comprised of > older vessels in Maine. The boats in MH are 70-80% AS in the race fleet. > There are a group of older WELL maintained (Nelson Mrek,Frers, Taylor, and a > newer 36.7 beny) that go SM and class 5/6 are SM. but all the big boats that > are racing have purchase or converted their boat to AS. And of course all > the new one design fleets are asymmetrical j70…. In Maine its SM except for > the j/105’s and we have limited participation from a few AS Race boats > Farr395, 1D35, Swan club 42… There are 2 conversion sprit boats > participating in Maine next year IMX40 and a Farr43. I feel that > asymmetrical is the way of the future easier to sail and more fun. go at > least 20% or their pain to jibe. > > The new matrix proposed is provided in the table below: > > D/L=(dis (lbs.)/2240)/((0.01*WLL(ft))3) > %=J*X for sprint length > # are adjustment to your rating > > D/L bow 10% 20% 30% > >220 9 6 3 0 > 150-220 6 3 0 -3 > 100-150 3 0 -3 -6 > >100 0 -3 -6 -9 > > > Good morning Ryan > > Yes, I was there and a new rule has been passed for 2015. The heart of the > issue, as you probably already know, is that for a number of years boats > which changed from a symmetrical spin to an asym were given a credit of up > to 9 sec/mile. PHRFNE is finally recognizing that the credit was a mistake > in some cases. > > I don't know how it will impact your handicap because I don't have access to > the 2014 cert for your boat (I can access only those boats that were in the > GMORA fleet in 2014). But the rule is essentially based on the ratio of > your displacement to LWL. Then depending on that ratio and the length of > your sprit relative to the J measurement, you may see a reduced spinnaker > credit of 3, 6 or 9 sec/mile. By the way, the displacement used will be > based on an empty boat and that number may not be what is on the boat's 2014 > certificate. > > PHRFNE will be publishing, shortly, an explanation of the new rule in > layman's terms so that you can understand what has transpired. > > I recognize that the above has probably created more questions than answers > but more will follow soon. > > > Ryan Raber > 207.841.7881 > r...@fvprovidian.net > > > > > > > ___ > This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album. > > Please donate to the C&C Photo Album to keep this list free for all > subscribers. > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page > at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > ___ Email addre
