Re: Stus-List Damage to fibreglas
/Q. I have heard that gel coat will not adhere well to epoxy <http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/epoxy.html>. Can you confirm this?/ A. There is a common misconception, fueled by some gelcoat <http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/gelcoat.html> manufacturers and by some expensive failures in the field, that gelcoat will not bond to epoxy. Polyester resin bonds poorly in a secondary (mechanical) bonding situation which consequently makes epoxy the resin of choice for repairs <http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/repairs.html>. How can one be squared with the other? The answer is surprisingly simple - *gelcoat does bond to a properly cured and prepared epoxy surface*. There are a couple issues to be aware of to have success making this repair. There are three situations that cause gelcoat to not cure over epoxy... all related to the hardener chemistry. Epoxy hardeners are basically a blend of amines, which can terminate the chain reaction of the radical molecule that is the basis of polyester (and vinylester) cure chemistry. So by carefully mixing, curing, and preparing of the epoxy so that there are no unreacted amines to interfere with the gelcoat cure, gelcoat bonds quite well to epoxy. The first situation is _undercured epoxy_. Gelcoat applied to undercured epoxy will be in contact with unreacted amines and the cure will be halted. The second situation is if the epoxy is mixed _off ratio_ so that it is hardener rich, again leaving unreacted amines free to interfere. Third is the issue of _amine blush_, commonly called blush. Blush is a surface phenomena that is a reaction of the amine molecules at the surface with the carbon dioxide in the air. It forms easiest in the presence of moisture, so working in cool, humid environments will maximize the formation of blush. Any amine hardener has the potential to blush, but it can be minimized by careful choices of amines in the formulation. In fact, WEST SYSTEM 207 Special coating hardener is one of the lowest blushing hardeners on the market and still maintains structural properties on par with our other hardeners. Regardless of chemistry, blush is very easily dealt with because it is water <http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/water.html> soluble. A simple wash with clear water <http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/water.html> removes the blush. No soap, no solvents. Then sand that washed surface with 80 grit paper to provide the gelcoat with sufficient key so it won't run. Be sure to use non-air inhibited gelcoat that has a paraffin wax added. Gelcoat is applied over epoxy on a routine basis everyday in boatyards <http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/tags/boatyards.html> that are aware of these issues. *Bruce Niederer*, Technical Services West System Inc. http://www.westsystem.com/ <http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/misc.php?postid=52038&threadid=5794&external_page=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.westsystem.com%2F> See also the articles at: http://www.epoxyworks.com/indexprojects.html <http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/misc.php?postid=52038&threadid=5794&external_page=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.epoxyworks.com%2Findexprojects.html> On 7/6/2015 11:42 AM, Bill Coleman via CnC-List wrote: Polyester resin doesn’t stick too well to anything except uncured polyester resin. That’s why Gougeon’s recommend epoxy for fiberglass repair. Well, that, and they sell it, of course. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMVCwhz_hY4 Bill Coleman C&C 39 Erie PA *From:*CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Fred Hazzard via CnC-List *Sent:* Sunday, July 05, 2015 1:57 PM *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com *Cc:* Fred Hazzard *Subject:* Stus-List Damage to fibreglas I put a hole in several layers of fibreglas about a foot above the waterline in the side of my boat. As it may take some time before repairs are made,  should I seal the glass to prevent water from getting in the layup? If so what should I use? Fred Hazzard S/V Fury Portland, Or ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Damage to fibreglas
Polyester resin doesnt stick too well to anything except uncured polyester resin. Thats why Gougeons recommend epoxy for fiberglass repair. Well, that, and they sell it, of course. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMVCwhz_hY4 Bill Coleman C&C 39 Erie PA From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Fred Hazzard via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 1:57 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Fred Hazzard Subject: Stus-List Damage to fibreglas I put a hole in several layers of fibreglas about a foot above the waterline in the side of my boat. As it may take some time before repairs are made,  should I seal the glass to prevent water from getting in the layup? If so what should I use? Fred Hazzard S/V Fury Portland, Or ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Damage to fibreglas
I've got a potential soft spot under the starboard genoa track.If it turns out to be more than where the bolts go through, what's the layback ratio for laying up the new glass?I'm figuring to try and cut out the skin of the deck with a vibrating saw like D suggested.RonWild CheriC&C 30-1STL From: Dennis C. via CnC-List To: CnClist Cc: Dennis C. Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2015 5:22 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List Damage to fibreglas On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List wrote: I can't understand why anyone would use polyester OR vinylester resin for a repair. I do it quite often. Vinylester resin works as well as epoxy and avoids the compatibility issues. It's also cheaper. But like you said, if you're going to grind it all out anyway, epoxy works fine. I think the proportioned pumps make epoxy easier to use. . 5 strokes of epoxy resin, 5 strokes of epoxy hardener. Almost foolproof. Vinylester resin mixing takes more thought and technique. I learned long ago, when mixing MEKP into vinylester resin or gelcoat, go METRIC or use a scale. Mixing 100 grams resin? Add 1.5-2 ml MEKP. Done. The math is so much easier than 19 drops per ounce or whatever using English measures. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Damage to fibreglas
Sorry about that... What happened? Cheers, Aaron 79 30-1 Admiral Maggie Annapolis, MD > On Jul 5, 2015, at 1:57 PM, Fred Hazzard via CnC-List > wrote: > > I put a hole in several layers of fibreglas about a foot above the waterline > in the side of my boat. As it may take some time before repairs are made, > should I seal the glass to prevent water from getting in the layup? If so > what should I use? > > Fred Hazzard > S/V Fury > Portland, Or > ___ > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom > of page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Damage to fibreglas
Gelcoat won’t stick to epoxy, so unless you intend to repaint the boat in the near future don’t use epoxy. Dennis C can wade in on the subject, but in my experience it will take just about the same amount of time to do a patch with epoxy as it will to do a repair with polyester and gelcoat…. So why do it twice? I recently did repairs on a C&C 29 that had a long (but shallow) gash in the topsides, a spot where the port stern cleat had been torn out of the deck and a shoddy attempt made at a repair, and two areas in the deck where lifeline stanchions had done damage resulting in a leak. In all I had about 6-7 hours of grinding and glass work to lay up patches and restore the gelcoat spread over 4 days, with more than half of the time spent in matching, applying, and smoothing out the gelcoat. Do the job once, but do it right. Rick Brass Washington, NC From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:59 PM To: C&C List Cc: Josh Muckley Subject: Re: Stus-List Damage to fibreglas Ken's statement is my understanding also but aside from the possibility that a gelcoat finish won't adhere, I can't understand why anyone would use polyester OR vinylester resin for a repair. Besides when you go to do the job right you're going to grind out all the epoxy anyway to feather in a proper layup. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C&C 37+ Solomons, MD On Jul 5, 2015 3:23 PM, "Ken Heaton via CnC-List" mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote: I think the recommendation to seal it out with epoxy is not a good idea unless the future repair is certain to be made with epoxy as well. As I understand it, the common polyester resin does not stick properly to epoxy, making more work for whoever does the later repair if they do the repair using polyester resin. Ken H. On 5 July 2015 at 15:31, Brent Driedger via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote: I would seal it with West Epoxy and if it's in a structurally important area I'd sand out a bevel and add a few layers of glass. It didn't need to be pretty. Cheers. Brent 27-5 Lake Winnipeg Sent from my iPhone On Jul 5, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Fred Hazzard via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote: I put a hole in several layers of fibreglas about a foot above the waterline in the side of my boat. As it may take some time before repairs are made, should I seal the glass to prevent water from getting in the layup? If so what should I use? Fred Hazzard S/V Fury Portland, Or ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com <mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com <mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com <mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Damage to fibreglas
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > I can't understand why anyone would use polyester OR vinylester resin for > a repair. I do it quite often. Vinylester resin works as well as epoxy and avoids the compatibility issues. It's also cheaper. But like you said, if you're going to grind it all out anyway, epoxy works fine. I think the proportioned pumps make epoxy easier to use. . 5 strokes of epoxy resin, 5 strokes of epoxy hardener. Almost foolproof. Vinylester resin mixing takes more thought and technique. I learned long ago, when mixing MEKP into vinylester resin or gelcoat, go METRIC or use a scale. Mixing 100 grams resin? Add 1.5-2 ml MEKP. Done. The math is so much easier than 19 drops per ounce or whatever using English measures. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Damage to fibreglas
Ken's statement is my understanding also but aside from the possibility that a gelcoat finish won't adhere, I can't understand why anyone would use polyester OR vinylester resin for a repair. Besides when you go to do the job right you're going to grind out all the epoxy anyway to feather in a proper layup. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 C&C 37+ Solomons, MD On Jul 5, 2015 3:23 PM, "Ken Heaton via CnC-List" wrote: > I think the recommendation to seal it out with epoxy is not a good idea > unless the future repair is certain to be made with epoxy as well. As I > understand it, the common polyester resin does not stick properly to epoxy, > making more work for whoever does the later repair if they do the repair > using polyester resin. > > Ken H. > > On 5 July 2015 at 15:31, Brent Driedger via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > >> I would seal it with West Epoxy and if it's in a structurally important >> area I'd sand out a bevel and add a few layers of glass. It didn't need to >> be pretty. >> Cheers. >> >> Brent >> 27-5 >> Lake Winnipeg >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Jul 5, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Fred Hazzard via CnC-List < >> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: >> >> I put a hole in several layers of fibreglas about a foot above the >> waterline in the side of my boat. As it may take some time before repairs >> are made, should I seal the glass to prevent water from getting in the >> layup? If so what should I use? >> >> Fred Hazzard >> S/V Fury >> Portland, Or >> >> ___ >> >> Email address: >> CnC-List@cnc-list.com >> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the >> bottom of page at: >> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com >> >> >> ___ >> >> Email address: >> CnC-List@cnc-list.com >> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the >> bottom of page at: >> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com >> >> >> > > ___ > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the > bottom of page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > > ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Damage to fibreglas
I think the recommendation to seal it out with epoxy is not a good idea unless the future repair is certain to be made with epoxy as well. As I understand it, the common polyester resin does not stick properly to epoxy, making more work for whoever does the later repair if they do the repair using polyester resin. Ken H. On 5 July 2015 at 15:31, Brent Driedger via CnC-List wrote: > I would seal it with West Epoxy and if it's in a structurally important > area I'd sand out a bevel and add a few layers of glass. It didn't need to > be pretty. > Cheers. > > Brent > 27-5 > Lake Winnipeg > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jul 5, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Fred Hazzard via CnC-List < > cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: > > I put a hole in several layers of fibreglas about a foot above the > waterline in the side of my boat. As it may take some time before repairs > are made, should I seal the glass to prevent water from getting in the > layup? If so what should I use? > > Fred Hazzard > S/V Fury > Portland, Or > > ___ > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the > bottom of page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > > ___ > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the > bottom of page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > > > ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Damage to fibreglas
I would seal it with West Epoxy and if it's in a structurally important area I'd sand out a bevel and add a few layers of glass. It didn't need to be pretty. Cheers. Brent 27-5 Lake Winnipeg Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 5, 2015, at 12:57 PM, Fred Hazzard via CnC-List > wrote: > > I put a hole in several layers of fibreglas about a foot above the waterline > in the side of my boat. As it may take some time before repairs are made, > should I seal the glass to prevent water from getting in the layup? If so > what should I use? > > Fred Hazzard > S/V Fury > Portland, Or > ___ > > Email address: > CnC-List@cnc-list.com > To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom > of page at: > http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com > ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Stus-List Damage to fibreglas
I put a hole in several layers of fibreglas about a foot above the waterline in the side of my boat. As it may take some time before repairs are made, should I seal the glass to prevent water from getting in the layup? If so what should I use? Fred Hazzard S/V Fury Portland, Or ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
