Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again
One thing to be careful about is the potential or lack thereof of builder or manufacturer support further down the road. Saga Yachts were very cool boats with an awesome design, but a mercurial and dishonest owner and builder company. Saga merged (bought up?) Pacific Seacraft when it was located in California and then gloriously disappeared leaving at least two buyers with deposits, hanging in the lurch with half built boats. Steve Brodie then acquired Pacific Seacraft, moved it to Washington, NC and tried to help the Saga dealer nearby with completing the boat. The boat buyer had to pay twice for many of the components for the boat (since the former ownership had made off with the customers down payments). I’m not sure if there’s anything left of Saga Yachts, but if you buy one, keep in mind that there were far fewer built than C meaning the availability of anything specially built for the boat is going to be hard to find if replacements are needed. And regarding a Bob Perry design, he and Rob Ball were very good friends and had a lot of respect for each other’s work. Chuck Gilchrest S/V Half Magic 1983 Landfall 35 Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks for your help. Stu
Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again
The Saga 48 might be more in keeping with the original wish list based on the 45-50’ criteria. https://swiftsureyachts.com/saga-48-arctic-raven/ Tom S Sent from Mail for Windows From: Dennis C. via CnC-List Sent: February 23, 2023 6:40 AM To: Stus-List Cc: Dennis C. Subject: Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again Bob Perry designed Saga 43. -- Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks for your help. Stu
Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again
Taylor Swift/Lady Gaga? Richard Richard N. Bush Law Offices2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite NineLouisville, Kentucky 40220(502) 584-7255 -Original Message- From: Matt Wolford via CnC-List To: 'Stus-List' Cc: wolf...@erie.net Sent: Thu, Feb 23, 2023 10:36 am Subject: Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again I think you mean Ginger/Maryanne. -Original Message- From: Dave S via CnC-List Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2023 10:24 AM To: Stus-List Cc: Dave S Subject: Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again This is a Betty/Veronica conversation….for those of a certain age. (Lol.) Build Quality aside, This fun discussion is totally dependent on how you wish to use the boat. I’m in the process of buying my next boat - an alubat ovni - and I’m sure it’ll sail like a barge compared to my c 33ii. It doesn’t have the interior volume, walk through transom, twin helms or owners cabin of a modern centre cockpit/aft cabin design, which would necessarily have exposed rudders, a huge high dodger and an elevated cockpit sole. (The latter is a pain point for me in newer boats under, say 45’). The design/features compromise of the boat I chose do suit my intended use. I do think that vintage is often more relevant that builder - most mass production builders’ designs of a given period have a lot in common My C$.02. Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks for your help. Stu
Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again
I think you mean Ginger/Maryanne. -Original Message- From: Dave S via CnC-List Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2023 10:24 AM To: Stus-List Cc: Dave S Subject: Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again This is a Betty/Veronica conversation….for those of a certain age. (Lol.) Build Quality aside, This fun discussion is totally dependent on how you wish to use the boat.I’m in the process of buying my next boat - an alubat ovni - and I’m sure it’ll sail like a barge compared to my c 33ii. It doesn’t have the interior volume, walk through transom, twin helms or owners cabin of a modern centre cockpit/aft cabin design, which would necessarily have exposed rudders, a huge high dodger and an elevated cockpit sole. (The latter is a pain point for me in newer boats under, say 45’). The design/features compromise of the boat I chose do suit my intended use. I do think that vintage is often more relevant that builder - most mass production builders’ designs of a given period have a lot in common My C$.02. Dave Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 23, 2023, at 7:50 AM, Danny Haughey via CnC-List > wrote: > > > I'm not sure there is much research that went into this comment. Most of the > boats you listed have been around for decades and some are amazingly designed > and of high quality construction. >>snip<< Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks for your help. Stu Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks for your help. Stu
Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again
This is a Betty/Veronica conversation….for those of a certain age. (Lol.) Build Quality aside, This fun discussion is totally dependent on how you wish to use the boat.I’m in the process of buying my next boat - an alubat ovni - and I’m sure it’ll sail like a barge compared to my c 33ii. It doesn’t have the interior volume, walk through transom, twin helms or owners cabin of a modern centre cockpit/aft cabin design, which would necessarily have exposed rudders, a huge high dodger and an elevated cockpit sole. (The latter is a pain point for me in newer boats under, say 45’). The design/features compromise of the boat I chose do suit my intended use. I do think that vintage is often more relevant that builder - most mass production builders’ designs of a given period have a lot in common My C$.02. Dave Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 23, 2023, at 7:50 AM, Danny Haughey via CnC-List > wrote: > > > I'm not sure there is much research that went into this comment. Most of the > boats you listed have been around for decades and some are amazingly designed > and of high quality construction. >>snip<< Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks for your help. Stu
Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again
My feeling about boat shopping is that you will know her when you see her. On 2/23/2023 4:48 AM, Danny Haughey via CnC-List wrote: I'm not sure there is much research that went into this comment. Most of the boats you listed have been around for decades and some are amazingly designed and of high quality construction. I think Andy was talking more about the triangular shaped, (in plan) modern boats that are almost catamaran-like. These boats are, lightweight, flat bottomed boats, with a hard chine on each side, In essence, creating 2 hulls, one for each tack. However, the interior vary, Moody's interior are very traditional, with plenty of wood, curved corners and plenty of hand holds. The older Hylas, oyster, Holland boats, I'm looking at are pretty traditional. One is even designed by Sparkman and Stevens. This will be our 4th sail boat, hence, our 4th shopping experience, and one thing I can say with certainty, is there are plenty of surprises in boat shopping. You simply can't make these sweeping generalizations with any degree of certainty. There are some beautifully fitted out Bavaria's from the late 90s early 2000s. The boat shows simply can't be a real gauge of the used boat market. Hell, Catalina actually produced an amazingly well build 38 footer that was designed by Sparkman and Stevens with plywood cored decks and solid fiberglass hull. Making an argument as to why you're hanging onto your boat is great. But to dismiss quality brans, wholesale like that, is just not helpful banter. Thanks for the input, though. Danny -- Original Message -- From: Richard Bush via CnC-List To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" Cc: Richard Bush Subject: Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 04:00:47 + (UTC) I was pleased to read Andrew Burton's comments about the modern trendy boats (hylas, oyster, moody, Holland, Bavaria, Dufour etc., ); when someasked him what to avoid, he said..."... I’m just not a fan of that ilk. Plus the interiors tend to be a bit ikea-ish with lots of sharp corners and few handholds." Andy, thank you, thank you; I have long felt that way, and it is nice to hear a person with your experience (and credentials) finally say it! That is a major reason I have held on to my C 37; boats that can provide what it provides are going to cost 10 times what I have in my boat and don't handle as well..! Richard s/v Bushmark4: 1085 C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 596; Richard N. Bush Law Offices 2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine Louisville, Kentucky 40220 (502) 584-7255 -Original Message- From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List To: Stus-List Cc: Andrew Burton Sent: Wed, Feb 22, 2023 5:34 pm Subject: Stus-List Re: Boatless again Not really. I’m just not a fan of that ilk. Plus the interiors tend to be a bit ikea-ish with lots of sharp corners and few handholds. Andrew Burton On Feb 22, 2023, at 17:32, DJ via CnC-List wrote: Andy, Would have any suggestions as to what to stay clear of? On Feb 22, 2023 4:21 PM, Andrew Burton via CnC-List wrote: Danny, I’ve delivered several modern fat-assed boats and though they tick a lot of boxes, they do not sail well unless you’re on your ear because of all the wetted surface. Andy Andrew Burton On Feb 22, 2023, at 16:01, Danny Haughey via CnC-List wrote: I've got hylas, oyster, moody, Ron Holland on my list so far. Maybe a Bavaria, or Dufour but, those can really slam going to wind... Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks for your help. StuPlease show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks for your help. Stu
Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again
Yes, I like most of Perry’s designs. Andy Andrew Burton 26 Beacon Hill Newport, RI USA02840 http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/ +401 965-5260 > On Feb 23, 2023, at 08:39, Dennis C. via CnC-List > wrote: > > > Bob Perry designed Saga 43. > > -- > Dennis C. > Touche' 35-1 #83 > Mandeville, LA > Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help > me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at: > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > Thanks for your help. > Stu Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks for your help. Stu
Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again
Bob Perry designed Saga 43. -- Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks for your help. Stu
Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again
I haven’t any experience with Moodys, but they have a good reputation. Oysters and Hylases are good well-built sea-kindly designs that sail well. To the list of good boats, I’d add the J/46 and the Morris 46 and 51. So many good boats to choose from. The boats I dislike are the ones Danny describes. The one thing that I would like, that my Baltic doesn’t have is a longish keel that I could let the boat settle on and dry out for bottom work rather than having to haul out at a yard. But the Baltic makes up for it by sailing well…and man, does she ever sail well! That’s also why I chose my C, too. I get incredible joy from a boat who sails well. Andy Andrew Burton 26 Beacon Hill Newport, RI USA02840 http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/ +401 965-5260 > On Feb 23, 2023, at 07:50, Danny Haughey via CnC-List > wrote: > > > I'm not sure there is much research that went into this comment. Most of the > boats you listed have been around for decades and some are amazingly designed > and of high quality construction. I think Andy was talking more about the > triangular shaped, (in plan) modern boats that are almost catamaran-like. > These boats are, lightweight, flat bottomed boats, with a hard chine on each > side, In essence, creating 2 hulls, one for each tack. However, the > interior vary, Moody's interior are very traditional, with plenty of wood, > curved corners and plenty of hand holds. The older Hylas, oyster, Holland > boats, I'm looking at are pretty traditional. One is even designed by > Sparkman and Stevens. > > This will be our 4th sail boat, hence, our 4th shopping experience, and one > thing I can say with certainty, is there are plenty of surprises in boat > shopping. You simply can't make these sweeping generalizations with any > degree of certainty. There are some beautifully fitted out Bavaria's from > the late 90s early 2000s. The boat shows simply can't be a real gauge of the > used boat market. Hell, Catalina actually produced an amazingly well build > 38 footer that was designed by Sparkman and Stevens with plywood cored decks > and solid fiberglass hull. > > Making an argument as to why you're hanging onto your boat is great. But to > dismiss quality brans, wholesale like that, is just not helpful banter. > Thanks for the input, though. > > Danny > > -- Original Message -- > From: Richard Bush via CnC-List > To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" > Cc: Richard Bush > Subject: Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again > Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 04:00:47 + (UTC) > > I was pleased to read Andrew Burton's comments about the modern trendy boats > (hylas, oyster, moody, Holland, Bavaria, Dufour etc., ); when someasked him > what to avoid, he said..."... I’m just not a fan of that ilk. Plus the > interiors tend to be a bit ikea-ish with lots of sharp corners and few > handholds." > > Andy, thank you, thank you; I have long felt that way, and it is nice to hear > a person with your experience (and credentials) finally say it! > That is a major reason I have held on to my C 37; boats that can provide > what it provides are going to cost 10 times what I have in my boat and don't > handle as well..! > > Richard > s/v Bushmark4: 1085 C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 596; > > Richard N. Bush Law Offices > 2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine > Louisville, Kentucky 40220 > (502) 584-7255 > > > -Original Message- > From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List > To: Stus-List > Cc: Andrew Burton > Sent: Wed, Feb 22, 2023 5:34 pm > Subject: Stus-List Re: Boatless again > > Not really. I’m just not a fan of that ilk. Plus the interiors tend to be a > bit ikea-ish with lots of sharp corners and few handholds. > > Andrew Burton > On Feb 22, 2023, at 17:32, DJ via CnC-List wrote: > Andy, Would have any suggestions as to what to stay clear of? > > On Feb 22, 2023 4:21 PM, Andrew Burton via CnC-List > wrote: > Danny, I’ve delivered several modern fat-assed boats and though they tick a > lot of boxes, they do not sail well unless you’re on your ear because of all > the wetted surface. > Andy > > Andrew Burton > > On Feb 22, 2023, at 16:01, Danny Haughey via CnC-List > wrote: > I've got hylas, oyster, moody, Ron Holland on my list so far. Maybe a > Bavaria, or Dufour but, those can really slam going to wind... > > Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help > me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at: > https://www.paypal.me/stumurray > Thanks for your help. > Stu Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks for your help. Stu
Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again
I'm not sure there is much research that went into this comment. Most of the boats you listed have been around for decades and some are amazingly designed and of high quality construction. I think Andy was talking more about the triangular shaped, (in plan) modern boats that are almost catamaran-like. These boats are, lightweight, flat bottomed boats, with a hard chine on each side, In essence, creating 2 hulls, one for each tack. However, the interior vary, Moody's interior are very traditional, with plenty of wood, curved corners and plenty of hand holds. The older Hylas, oyster, Holland boats, I'm looking at are pretty traditional. One is even designed by Sparkman and Stevens. This will be our 4th sail boat, hence, our 4th shopping experience, and one thing I can say with certainty, is there are plenty of surprises in boat shopping. You simply can't make these sweeping generalizations with any degree of certainty. There are some beautifully fitted out Bavaria's from the late 90s early 2000s. The boat shows simply can't be a real gauge of the used boat market. Hell, Catalina actually produced an amazingly well build 38 footer that was designed by Sparkman and Stevens with plywood cored decks and solid fiberglass hull. Making an argument as to why you're hanging onto your boat is great. But to dismiss quality brans, wholesale like that, is just not helpful banter. Thanks for the input, though. Danny -- Original Message -- From: Richard Bush via CnC-List To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" Cc: Richard Bush Subject: Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2023 04:00:47 + (UTC) I was pleased to read Andrew Burton's comments about the modern trendy boats (hylas, oyster, moody, Holland, Bavaria, Dufour etc., ); when someasked him what to avoid, he said..."... Im just not a fan of that ilk. Plus the interiors tend to be a bit ikea-ish with lots of sharp corners and few handholds." Andy, thank you, thank you; I have long felt that way, and it is nice to hear a person with your experience (and credentials) finally say it! That is a major reason I have held on to my C 37; boats that can provide what it provides are going to cost 10 times what I have in my boat and don't handle as well..! Richards/v Bushmark4: 1085 C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 596; Richard N. Bush Law Offices2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite NineLouisville, Kentucky 40220(502) 584-7255 -Original Message- From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List To: Stus-List Cc: Andrew Burton Sent: Wed, Feb 22, 2023 5:34 pm Subject: Stus-List Re: Boatless again Not really. Im just not a fan of that ilk. Plus the interiors tend to be a bit ikea-ish with lots of sharp corners and few handholds.Andrew BurtonOn Feb 22, 2023, at 17:32, DJ via CnC-List wrote:Andy, Would have any suggestions as to what to stay clear of? On Feb 22, 2023 4:21 PM, Andrew Burton via CnC-List wrote:Danny, Ive delivered several modern fat-assed boats and though they tick a lot of boxes, they do not sail well unless youre on your ear because of all the wetted surface.AndyAndrew Burton On Feb 22, 2023, at 16:01, Danny Haughey via CnC-List wrote:I've got hylas, oyster, moody, Ron Holland on my list so far. Maybe a Bavaria, or Dufour but, those can really slam going to wind... Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks for your help. Stu
Stus-List Re: Boats to avoid; formerly- Boatless again
I was pleased to read Andrew Burton's comments about the modern trendy boats (hylas, oyster, moody, Holland, Bavaria, Dufour etc., ); when someasked him what to avoid, he said..."... I’m just not a fan of that ilk. Plus the interiors tend to be a bit ikea-ish with lots of sharp corners and few handholds." Andy, thank you, thank you; I have long felt that way, and it is nice to hear a person with your experience (and credentials) finally say it! That is a major reason I have held on to my C 37; boats that can provide what it provides are going to cost 10 times what I have in my boat and don't handle as well..! Richards/v Bushmark4: 1085 C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 596; Richard N. Bush Law Offices2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite NineLouisville, Kentucky 40220(502) 584-7255 -Original Message- From: Andrew Burton via CnC-List To: Stus-List Cc: Andrew Burton Sent: Wed, Feb 22, 2023 5:34 pm Subject: Stus-List Re: Boatless again Not really. I’m just not a fan of that ilk. Plus the interiors tend to be a bit ikea-ish with lots of sharp corners and few handholds. Andrew Burton On Feb 22, 2023, at 17:32, DJ via CnC-List wrote: Andy, Would have any suggestions as to what to stay clear of? On Feb 22, 2023 4:21 PM, Andrew Burton via CnC-List wrote: Danny, I’ve delivered several modern fat-assed boats and though they tick a lot of boxes, they do not sail well unless you’re on your ear because of all the wetted surface.Andy Andrew Burton On Feb 22, 2023, at 16:01, Danny Haughey via CnC-List wrote: I've got hylas, oyster, moody, Ron Holland on my list so far. Maybe a Bavaria, or Dufour but, those can really slam going to wind... Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills. Make a contribution at: https://www.paypal.me/stumurray Thanks for your help. Stu
