Stus-List Re: universal M20 diesel question

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Thanks all who assisted - problem solved.

We did send the pump and injectors in to performance diesel in Markham ON. - 
recommended!   Pump was rebuilt but it was not the problem.  Injectors fine.  
This left the governor.  Fascinating little gadget.   Conceptually, As Rpm 
increases the centrifugal governor attempts to restrict fuel by closing a fuel 
supply valve, fighting against a determined opposing spring which tries to 
increase fuel by opening that valve.  This way as revs drop, the centrifuge 
loses power, the spring wins and more fuel is supplied. Rpm is held constant 
irrespective of load.   This eternal cosmic battle is limited at one extreme by 
the speed lever, (aka the throttle) at the other - the wide open end - by a 
stop.  If the spring is stretched and cannot pull the valve to the wide open 
stop, the fuel valve only opens partway.   the fuel pump only operates over 
part of its range, and revs under load are thereby limited.  
I shortened the spring which now snaps  the lever smartly back against its 
stop, opening the fuel slider fully.   The governor now has a worthy opponent 
and the engine runs properly for the first time in years.  The owner will spend 
the $10 to replace the spring.
Hopefully that helps someone else down the road.
On the universal this can be easily checked and repaired simply by removing the 
fuel speed control plate.  30 min total to do the job.  

Dave 


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 8, 2021, at 6:33 AM, Dave S  wrote:
> 
> Thanks Neil - I did find and have been studying that manual and the parts 
> list as well.  The drawings are just ok and the Service and adjustment 
> information is a bit light but they (and others) do repeatedly warn that the 
> high pressure pump is not for the faint of heart.   I’d be tempted to 
> carefully tackle it if we’re my engine but discretion suggests I should help 
> him by verifying the few remaining unverified bits and maybe stop there.  
> (He’s not mechanically inclined.)
> That said, Throwing in the towel on something like a centrifugal governor 
> does bug me a bit though!   (Lol)
> 
> Thanks for taking the time - you’ve been extremely helpful.
> 
> Dave
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 10:56 PM, Neil Gallagher via CnC-List 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>  Dave,
>> 
>> This link below should bring up the service manual for the M20, on p. 17 of 
>> the .pdf, Fig. 37 shows the HP pump with the governor on the left end.  It's 
>> kind of integral to the pump, looks difficult to remove separate from the 
>> pump.  If sticking is the issue one thought would be to try to flush some 
>> diesel oil, maybe with some Marvel Mystery Oil added, in through governor 
>> while it's in place.  You'd have to open up the top of the unit, which gets 
>> tricky pretty fast, but if you could just get a gap you could flush oil 
>> through.  You could hold the compression release down and spin the engine 
>> while spraying. After that I'd flush with lube oil and do an oil change.  
>> 
>> As I mentioned I took one of these apart last year, contact me off line if 
>> you want to talk more about it.
>> 
>> https://www.google.com/search?q=universal+westerbeke+M20+governor=firefox-b-1-d=1017=651=FBY4YeOmLe2l5NoP0Zq34AI=universal+westerbeke+M20+governor_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQghEKABOgcIABBHELADOgoIABBHELADEMkDOgUIIRCrAjoHCCEQChCgAUoFCDwSATFKBAhBGAFQnt0YWObtGGCj7xhoAXAAeACAAawBiAGOCJIBAzQuNZgBAKABAcgBCMABAQ=gws-wiz=0ahUKEwjjgLj3oO7yAhXtElkFHVHNDSwQ4dUDCA0=5
>> 
>> Neil Gallagher
>> Weatherly, 35-1
>> Glen Cove, NY
>> 
>> On 9/7/2021 10:36 PM, Dave via CnC-List wrote:
>>> Thanks Neil – We did check for fuel returning but only at varying no-load 
>>> RPMs, not under load.
>>> There should be no air or water in the system- we also ran it from a jury 
>>> rigged tank, no filter, clean fuel, so I’m pretty sure those basics were 
>>> eliminated.
>>> No offense taken – most of the time people do miss these things.
>>> We haven’t torn things down too far yet.   Any way to check for a sticking 
>>> governor?
>>> Dave
>>>  
>>> Sent from Mail for Windows
>>>  
>>> From: Neil Gallagher via CnC-List
>>> Sent: September 7, 2021 10:13 PM
>>> To: Dave via CnC-List
>>> Cc: Neil Gallagher
>>> Subject: Stus-List Re: universal M20 diesel question
>>>  
>>> Dave,
>>> 
>>> Sure sounds like a fuel issue.  The governor does not restrict flow, it 
>>> sets the rotation of the plungers in the HP pump which controls how much 
>>> fuel in delivered to the injectors.  The fuel not used or which leaks by 
>>> the pump plungers is what returns t

Stus-List Re: universal M20 diesel question

[cenelson via CnC-List]

If it runs freely and rpms increase normally w/o trans engaged, I would look at 
the trans, packing gland too tight/shaft not aligned/cutless 
bearing/etc.——-something that is ‘aft’ of the engine.
Charlie Nelson


Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS


On Wednesday, September 8, 2021, 1:43 AM, Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List 
 wrote:

I’d go with injectors.

Tom BuscagliaS/V Alera 1990 C 37+/40Vashon WAP 206.463.9200C 305.409.3660


On Sep 7, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Dave via CnC-List  wrote:





Evening all.   Trying to help a neighbour here with a diesel issue.   His 
engine will rev freely at idle but with the transmission engaged in either 
forward or reverse, revs increase very  slowly and only to 1800-2000 RPM on the 
tach.   (whether tach is accurate or not, RPM under load is much lower than 
no-load, and  RPM increases quite slowly.)

We have verified that neither the exhaust system nor the fuel supply to the 
high pressure pump is obstructed.  Air Intake is clear.  The speed lever works 
smoothly to its full travel.   The compression release is not engaged.  The 
engine runs a new facet electric fuel pump with plenty of flow.

When the engine is running, no fuel returns to the tank via the return line.  
The return line is not blocked, at least not downstream from the return barb at 
the injector.  I am not sure under what circumstances the fuel should return to 
the tank in a diesel, as the return occurs after the high pressure pump.  

  

All This leads me to suspect a fuel (volume) problem but i am not exactly sure 
where to look next.      I believe all that’s left are injectors and high 
pressure pump.  The high pressure pump has a governor, not sure if that 
functions by restricting fuel flow.

  

Any thoughts?

  

Many thanks!   Dave 33-2

  

Sent from Mail for Windows

  
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - StuThanks to 
all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs 
involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send 
contribution --  https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: universal M20 diesel question

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Thanks all  for the feedback on this - the owner is pretty frustrated and the 
days are getting shorter. 


Thanks Tom - he did replace the injectors last season (no change to the 
symptoms)  but  I agree it’s worth verifying their operation before pulling the 
injector pump regardless.  

Dave 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 8, 2021, at 1:43 AM, Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> I’d go with injectors.
> 
> Tom Buscaglia
> S/V Alera 
> 1990 C 37+/40
> Vashon WA
> P 206.463.9200
> C 305.409.3660
> 
> 
>>> On Sep 7, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Dave via CnC-List  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> Evening all.   Trying to help a neighbour here with a diesel issue.   His 
>> engine will rev freely at idle but with the transmission engaged in either 
>> forward or reverse, revs increase very  slowly and only to 1800-2000 RPM on 
>> the tach.   (whether tach is accurate or not, RPM under load is much lower 
>> than no-load, and  RPM increases quite slowly.)
>> We have verified that neither the exhaust system nor the fuel supply to the 
>> high pressure pump is obstructed.  Air Intake is clear.  The speed lever 
>> works smoothly to its full travel.   The compression release is not engaged. 
>>  The engine runs a new facet electric fuel pump with plenty of flow.
>> When the engine is running, no fuel returns to the tank via the return line. 
>>  The return line is not blocked, at least not downstream from the return 
>> barb at the injector.  I am not sure under what circumstances the fuel 
>> should return to the tank in a diesel, as the return occurs after the high 
>> pressure pump.  
>>  
>> All This leads me to suspect a fuel (volume) problem but i am not exactly 
>> sure where to look next.  I believe all that’s left are injectors and 
>> high pressure pump.  The high pressure pump has a governor, not sure if that 
>> functions by restricting fuel flow.
>>  
>> Any thoughts?
>>  
>> Many thanks!   Dave 33-2
>>  
>> Sent from Mail for Windows
>>  
>> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
>> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - 
>> Stu
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: universal M20 diesel question

[Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List]

I’d go with injectors.

Tom Buscaglia
S/V Alera 
1990 C 37+/40
Vashon WA
P 206.463.9200
C 305.409.3660


> On Sep 7, 2021, at 6:17 PM, Dave via CnC-List  wrote:
> 
> 
> Evening all.   Trying to help a neighbour here with a diesel issue.   His 
> engine will rev freely at idle but with the transmission engaged in either 
> forward or reverse, revs increase very  slowly and only to 1800-2000 RPM on 
> the tach.   (whether tach is accurate or not, RPM under load is much lower 
> than no-load, and  RPM increases quite slowly.)
> We have verified that neither the exhaust system nor the fuel supply to the 
> high pressure pump is obstructed.  Air Intake is clear.  The speed lever 
> works smoothly to its full travel.   The compression release is not engaged.  
> The engine runs a new facet electric fuel pump with plenty of flow.
> When the engine is running, no fuel returns to the tank via the return line.  
> The return line is not blocked, at least not downstream from the return barb 
> at the injector.  I am not sure under what circumstances the fuel should 
> return to the tank in a diesel, as the return occurs after the high pressure 
> pump.  
>  
> All This leads me to suspect a fuel (volume) problem but i am not exactly 
> sure where to look next.  I believe all that’s left are injectors and 
> high pressure pump.  The high pressure pump has a governor, not sure if that 
> functions by restricting fuel flow.
>  
> Any thoughts?
>  
> Many thanks!   Dave 33-2
>  
> Sent from Mail for Windows
>  
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: universal M20 diesel question

[Neil Gallagher via CnC-List]

Dave,

This link below should bring up the service manual for the M20, on p. 17 
of the .pdf, Fig. 37 shows the HP pump with the governor on the left 
end.  It's kind of integral to the pump, looks difficult to remove 
separate from the pump.  If sticking is the issue one thought would be 
to try to flush some diesel oil, maybe with some Marvel Mystery Oil 
added, in through governor while it's in place.  You'd have to open up 
the top of the unit, which gets tricky pretty fast, but if you could 
just get a gap you could flush oil through.  You could hold the 
compression release down and spin the engine while spraying. After that 
I'd flush with lube oil and do an oil change.


As I mentioned I took one of these apart last year, contact me off line 
if you want to talk more about it.


https://www.google.com/search?q=universal+westerbeke+M20+governor=firefox-b-1-d=1017=651=FBY4YeOmLe2l5NoP0Zq34AI=universal+westerbeke+M20+governor_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQghEKABOgcIABBHELADOgoIABBHELADEMkDOgUIIRCrAjoHCCEQChCgAUoFCDwSATFKBAhBGAFQnt0YWObtGGCj7xhoAXAAeACAAawBiAGOCJIBAzQuNZgBAKABAcgBCMABAQ=gws-wiz=0ahUKEwjjgLj3oO7yAhXtElkFHVHNDSwQ4dUDCA0=5

Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove, NY

On 9/7/2021 10:36 PM, Dave via CnC-List wrote:


Thanks Neil – We did check for fuel returning but only at varying 
no-load RPMs, not under load.


There should be no air or water in the system- we also ran it from a 
jury rigged tank, no filter, clean fuel, so I’m pretty sure those 
basics were eliminated.


No offense taken – most of the time people do miss these things.

We haven’t torn things down too far yet. Any way to check for a 
sticking governor?


Dave

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for 
Windows


*From: *Neil Gallagher via CnC-List <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
*Sent: *September 7, 2021 10:13 PM
*To: *Dave via CnC-List <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
*Cc: *Neil Gallagher <mailto:njgallag...@optonline.net>
*Subject: *Stus-List Re: universal M20 diesel question

Dave,

Sure sounds like a fuel issue.  The governor does not restrict flow, 
it sets the rotation of the plungers in the HP pump which controls how 
much fuel in delivered to the injectors.  The fuel not used or which 
leaks by the pump plungers is what returns to the tank.  Under light 
load you'll hardly see any return fuel, more as the load goes up.


The governor works by a balance between a spring and flyweights, the 
throttle lever adjusts the spring tension and engine speed sets the 
flyweight position.  A quick look at the M20 tech manual shows the 
governor is right in the HP pump assembly, it's possible the governor 
is sticking and causing slow response but it may also be worn fuel 
pump. You'd have to pull the whole assembly and send for rebuild. Cost 
me about $700 for that on an M3-20B engine last year on my club launch.


Before that extreme, however, let me ask the more obvious questions 
(don't mean to offend, just asking): any water in the fuel?  That 
could give a slow response, or maybe an air leak on the fuel supply 
hoses, though it sounds like you've checked that?


Neil Gallagher
Weatherly 35-1
Glen Cove, NY

On 9/7/2021 9:16 PM, Dave via CnC-List wrote:

Evening all. Trying to help a neighbour here with a diesel
issue.   His engine will rev freely at idle but with the
transmission engaged in either forward or reverse, revs increase
very  slowly and only to 1800-2000 RPM on the tach.   (whether
tach is accurate or not, RPM under load is much lower than
no-load, and  RPM increases quite slowly.)

We have verified that neither the exhaust system nor the fuel
supply to the high pressure pump is obstructed.  Air Intake is
clear.  The speed lever works smoothly to its full travel.   The
compression release is not engaged. The engine runs a new facet
electric fuel pump with plenty of flow.

When the engine is running, no fuel returns to the tank via the
return line.  The return line is not blocked, at least not
downstream from the return barb at the injector.  I am not sure
under what circumstances the fuel should return to the tank in a
diesel, as the return occurs after the high pressure pump.

All This leads me to suspect a fuel (volume) problem but i am not
exactly sure where to look next.      I believe all that’s left
are injectors and high pressure pump.  The high pressure pump has
a governor, not sure if that functions by restricting fuel flow.

Any thoughts?

Many thanks! Dave 33-2

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
for Windows




Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --https://www.paypal.me/stumurray   Thanks - Stu



Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs 

Stus-List Re: universal M20 diesel question

[Dave via CnC-List]

Thanks Neil – We did check for fuel returning but only at varying no-load RPMs, not under load.There should be no air or water in the system- we also ran it from a jury rigged tank, no filter, clean fuel, so I’m pretty sure those basics were eliminated.No offense taken – most of the time people do miss these things.We haven’t torn things down too far yet.   Any way to check for a sticking governor? Dave Sent from Mail for Windows From: Neil Gallagher via CnC-ListSent: September 7, 2021 10:13 PMTo: Dave via CnC-ListCc: Neil GallagherSubject: Stus-List Re: universal M20 diesel question Dave,Sure sounds like a fuel issue.  The governor does not restrict flow, it sets the rotation of the plungers in the HP pump which controls how much fuel in delivered to the injectors.  The fuel not used or which leaks by the pump plungers is what returns to the tank.  Under light load you'll hardly see any return fuel, more as the load goes up.  The governor works by a balance between a spring and flyweights, the throttle lever adjusts the spring tension and engine speed sets the flyweight position.  A quick look at the M20 tech manual shows the governor is right in the HP pump assembly, it's possible the governor is sticking and causing slow response but it may also be worn fuel pump.  You'd have to pull the whole assembly and send for rebuild.  Cost me about $700 for that on an M3-20B engine last year on my club launch.  Before that extreme, however, let me ask the more obvious questions (don't mean to offend, just asking): any water in the fuel?  That could give a slow response, or maybe an air leak on the fuel supply hoses, though it sounds like you've checked that?Neil GallagherWeatherly 35-1Glen Cove, NYOn 9/7/2021 9:16 PM, Dave via CnC-List wrote:Evening all.   Trying to help a neighbour here with a diesel issue.   His engine will rev freely at idle but with the transmission engaged in either forward or reverse, revs increase very  slowly and only to 1800-2000 RPM on the tach.   (whether tach is accurate or not, RPM under load is much lower than no-load, and  RPM increases quite slowly.)We have verified that neither the exhaust system nor the fuel supply to the high pressure pump is obstructed.  Air Intake is clear.  The speed lever works smoothly to its full travel.   The compression release is not engaged.  The engine runs a new facet electric fuel pump with plenty of flow.When the engine is running, no fuel returns to the tank via the return line.  The return line is not blocked, at least not downstream from the return barb at the injector.  I am not sure under what circumstances the fuel should return to the tank in a diesel, as the return occurs after the high pressure pump.   All This leads me to suspect a fuel (volume) problem but i am not exactly sure where to look next.      I believe all that’s left are injectors and high pressure pump.  The high pressure pump has a governor, not sure if that functions by restricting fuel flow. Any thoughts? Many thanks!   Dave 33-2 Sent from Mail for Windows Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu  Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: universal M20 diesel question

[Neil Gallagher via CnC-List]

Dave,

Sure sounds like a fuel issue.  The governor does not restrict flow, it 
sets the rotation of the plungers in the HP pump which controls how much 
fuel in delivered to the injectors.  The fuel not used or which leaks by 
the pump plungers is what returns to the tank.  Under light load you'll 
hardly see any return fuel, more as the load goes up.


The governor works by a balance between a spring and flyweights, the 
throttle lever adjusts the spring tension and engine speed sets the 
flyweight position.  A quick look at the M20 tech manual shows the 
governor is right in the HP pump assembly, it's possible the governor is 
sticking and causing slow response but it may also be worn fuel pump.  
You'd have to pull the whole assembly and send for rebuild.  Cost me 
about $700 for that on an M3-20B engine last year on my club launch.


Before that extreme, however, let me ask the more obvious questions 
(don't mean to offend, just asking): any water in the fuel?  That could 
give a slow response, or maybe an air leak on the fuel supply hoses, 
though it sounds like you've checked that?


Neil Gallagher
Weatherly 35-1
Glen Cove, NY


On 9/7/2021 9:16 PM, Dave via CnC-List wrote:


Evening all.   Trying to help a neighbour here with a diesel issue.   
His engine will rev freely at idle but with the transmission engaged 
in either forward or reverse, revs increase very  slowly and only to 
1800-2000 RPM on the tach.   (whether tach is accurate or not, RPM 
under load is much lower than no-load, and  RPM increases quite slowly.)


We have verified that neither the exhaust system nor the fuel supply 
to the high pressure pump is obstructed.  Air Intake is clear.  The 
speed lever works smoothly to its full travel.   The compression 
release is not engaged.  The engine runs a new facet electric fuel 
pump with plenty of flow.


When the engine is running, no fuel returns to the tank via the return 
line.  The return line is not blocked, at least not downstream from 
the return barb at the injector.  I am not sure under what 
circumstances the fuel should return to the tank in a diesel, as the 
return occurs after the high pressure pump.


All This leads me to suspect a fuel (volume) problem but i am not 
exactly sure where to look next.      I believe all that’s left are 
injectors and high pressure pump.  The high pressure pump has a 
governor, not sure if that functions by restricting fuel flow.


Any thoughts?

Many thanks!   Dave 33-2

Sent from Mail  for 
Windows




Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu


Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: universal M20 diesel question

[svrebeccaleah via CnC-List]

Is the prop clean? I may also be the fuel filters. It sounds like low fuel 
flow. Put in new filters, and bleed the system. DougSent from my T-Mobile 4G 
LTE Device
 Original message From: Dave via CnC-List 
 Date: 9/7/21  18:17  (GMT-08:00) To: 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: syerd...@gmail.com Subject: Stus-List universal M20 
diesel question Evening all.   Trying to help a neighbour here with a diesel 
issue.   His engine will rev freely at idle but with the transmission engaged 
in either forward or reverse, revs increase very  slowly and only to 1800-2000 
RPM on the tach.   (whether tach is accurate or not, RPM under load is much 
lower than no-load, and  RPM increases quite slowly.)We have verified that 
neither the exhaust system nor the fuel supply to the high pressure pump is 
obstructed.  Air Intake is clear.  The speed lever works smoothly to its full 
travel.   The compression release is not engaged.  The engine runs a new facet 
electric fuel pump with plenty of flow.When the engine is running, no fuel 
returns to the tank via the return line.  The return line is not blocked, at 
least not downstream from the return barb at the injector.  I am not sure under 
what circumstances the fuel should return to the tank in a diesel, as the 
return occurs after the high pressure pump.   All This leads me to suspect a 
fuel (volume) problem but i am not exactly sure where to look next.      I 
believe all that’s left are injectors and high pressure pump.  The high 
pressure pump has a governor, not sure if that functions by restricting fuel 
flow. Any thoughts? Many thanks!   Dave 33-2 Sent from Mail for Windows Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu