Re: Future of Cocoa

2019-11-21 Thread Matthew Kozak via Cocoa-dev 
Wow.
Debate (even heated) about Cocoa-dev (broadly) is one thing, but the personal 
attacks, and attack on the list itself to the point of rage quitting, are all 
unnecessary.  Before sending messages, please look in the mirror and say them 
out loud to an actual human face and then think about it for a moment from the 
other perspective.  It'll do a world of good and some good for the world.

Thank you,
-Matt


From: Cocoa-dev  on 
behalf of Dragan Milić via Cocoa-dev 
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 4:57 PM
To: Cocoa-dev 
Subject: Re: Future of Cocoa

> ćet 21.11.2019., at 21.20, Pier Bover wrote:
>
> It's time for me to leave this mailing list.

Yeah! Good bye!
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Re: other developer lists

2019-11-14 Thread Matthew Kozak via Cocoa-dev 
Another reason why there's really no harm -if not some truly topical good- in 
this kind of thread (even w/ some critiques/defenses) bubbling up here now and 
again...

Thanks, all,
-Matt

> On Nov 14, 2019, at 5:25 PM, Jens Alfke via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
 Maybe another list for meta or post-mortem discussions could be created ?
> 
> I manage the apple-dev.groups.io 
> 
>  site, which hosts a number of Apple developer lists including a Cocoa one.
> 
> I'd be happy to create a list for these kinds of discussions, if we can come 
> up with a suitable title and tag-line. (My experience is that lists created 
> to host a single off-topic thread seldom live long, because their purpose is 
> too specific.)
> 
> —Jens
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Re: Thoughts on Objective-C++

2019-11-14 Thread Matthew Kozak via Cocoa-dev 
Last year or so, there was much discussion about Apple shutting down many of 
their lists (some did go away, but this one persists).  An external solution 
was found, by some of those list members, although they have been extremely 
quiet in the last year+.  Here's a message from Steve Mills (is he still here - 
hi, Steve!) from earlier this year:
-
Supposedly, these lists are to be done away with at some point. Someone started 
co...@apple-dev.groups.io, which many of us 
have moved to. Or use the annoying and inferior dev 
forums.developer.apple.com.
-

Not sure why some were killed and this still exists, but either way, 
apple-dev.groups.io may be a good place to start?

I would still not say this is the wrong list for much of this recent thread, 
even if it may not be the best list...at some point.

FYI,
-Matt

On Nov 14, 2019, at 1:20 PM, Fulbert Boussaton via Cocoa-dev 
mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com>> wrote:

I must confess I’m pretty interested by all opinions since these threads 
started (27th of september I think).

Working in the construction industry, as I am, it might help to get interested 
in this and maybe this list is not the ideal vehicle for this kind of 
discussions but nonetheless, all arguments were very enlightening to me.

Maybe another list for meta or post-mortem discussions could be created ?


Flubb.




On 14 Nov 2019, at 04:32, Jeff Szuhay via Cocoa-dev 
mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> 
> wrote:

You made a business decision and now you must live with that decision.

Otherwise, this thread is really getting tiresome.


On Nov 13, 2019, at 4:28 PM, Turtle Creek Software via Cocoa-dev 
mailto:cocoa-dev@lists.apple.com> 
> wrote:

blah blah blah



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Re: Cocoa-dev Digest, Vol 16, Issue 144

2019-11-14 Thread Matthew Kozak via Cocoa-dev 
As a mostly silent member for years and years, I agree when the list goes off 
on a complaint tangent (and when it is flagged by moderators, which is rare but 
sometimes necessary), but I have found this Turtle Creek thread quite useful 
and agree with many points, particularly these later ones.  For those who find 
this thread tiring or are happy and able to go with Apple's sometimes 
frustrating flow, please do what I do for those ranting posts and even for most 
of the other threads that are of no interest to me or for which someone always 
already beats me to an (and much better) answer, and merely delete them or 
filter them and visit when you have the time.  This is a rich and diverse 
community, which I appreciate and not just tolerate.  The last thing we need to 
do as fellow devs is alienate or become intolerant of each other.

Otherwise, it's sometimes nice to discuss Cocoa Development -including its own 
history/future- more broadly than just a block/line and an error, and for that, 
I appreciate ALL of your posts and have not found any to need to be put on 
other lists that a moderator has not already flagged (especially when such a 
thread is corrected to get back on relevant track).  Thanks in advance for your 
patience and understanding and to you all for making the Apple ecosystem so 
awesome with app choices even for construction firms - too many people still go 
the Windows-only or VM route and Apple should care about that, and developers 
like Turtle Creek are a part of how that magic happens.

Sincerely,
-Matt

> On Nov 14, 2019, at 12:08 PM, Pier Bover via Cocoa-dev 
>  wrote:
> 
>> I think this gets back to the transparency issue.  If Apple were more open
>> about the future, it would be easier to know which cliffs are real.
> 
> That is one of my major gripes with Apple. Not only as a dev but also as a
> end user. It's like riding a car in at night and only seeing what's
> immediately in front of you.
> 
> Big software companies like Adobe and Microsoft announce the EOL of their
> products many years in advance. When did Apple announce the EOL for OpenGL
> or 32 bits apps in macOS? 1-2 years before release? One could argue it was
> obvious all along, but often Apple moves in mysterious ways, at least for
> the ones that do not travel to the WWDC or have privileged information.
> 
> There is no way to know where macOS will be 3 years from now and making
> medium or long term decisions is impossible. For example, when will ObjC be
> deprecated? 2 years from now? 10 years from now? If Apple announced openly
> and clearly that it would kill ObjC or Cocoa by 2025 it would be possible
> to make plans. No wonder the only macOS exclusive big developer is Apple
> itself.
> 
> I was planning to work on a desktop product for macOS during 2020 but I
> will hold on for a couple of years.
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Re: Thoughts on Cocoa

2019-10-03 Thread Matthew Kozak via Cocoa-dev 
Well, actually:
http://www.eat-more-burgers.com/blog/drugstore-burger
(couldn't resist).

Maybe more like going to a drug's manufacturing plant to complain about your 
PBM (pharmacy benefits manager), but yeah.

😉
-Matt


From: Cocoa-dev  on 
behalf of Dragan Milić via Cocoa-dev 
Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2019 4:43 AM
To: Cocoa-dev 
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Cocoa

> čet 03.10.2019., at 00.49, John Randolph via Cocoa-dev wrote:
>
> Speaking as a former moderator of this list, this thread is off-topic for 
> Cocoa-dev.  This list is for TECHNICAL discussion and help.
> Kindly take it to reddit or wherever else the denizens of 
> comp.sys.mac.advocacy ended up.

This whining crap seem to be appearing on the list every now and then, with 
mostly the same participants. While I may or may not agree with some or all of 
your points, This is not the place for that! Do you regularly go to the 
pharmacy and ask for double cheese burger in there?

-- Dragan
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