RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

2003-02-05 Thread Hunsberger, Peter 
> I was debating xml, xslt versus jsp with a colleague. He noted that
although xml, xslt works well in a
> divided graphics/analyst/developer big team, it eventually was scrapped
for JSP. The lack of object 
> hierarchy and polymorphism made changes very difficult. Can anyone provide
tales of xml, xslt in a 
> major production? (sans company name, of course)

We're certainly heading towards having a lot of xml and xslt in production.
Can't imagine doing what we are doing with JSP: we need 100's of customized
variations of any given "screen".  

My reason for replying however is the comment on lack of object hierarchy
and polymorphism.  I'm confused by this: although it's certainly true that
XSLT is not an OO language that doesn't mean it cannot map constructs to OO
languages.  In particular, XML can map OO isomorphically and XSLT can then
traverse this mapping.  Moreover, XSLT  does allow for some many different
types of hierarchy (include, import, modes and priorities) that, although
different than OO aggregation and inheritance can be used in similar ways.
Finally, much XSLT is run without schema/DTD validation which allows it in a
way to support the ultimate in polymorphism: your data can dynamically
change "type".  This last is a bit of a straw man, but let me put it this
way; XSLT is Turing complete, anything you can program in any other language
can be done with XSLT. It's not always easy, but then again, sometimes it's
a lot easier than using JSP...



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Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

2003-02-04 Thread Steven Noels 
Adrian Boston wrote:


If you want to comment on your xml success in your production systems,
great, otherwise, drsvp.


Adrian, Robert,

as perhaps has become obvious something like a week ago, we try to 
refrain from personal comments other than some light banter on this 
list. Cocoon-users has always been a friendly community in the past, and 
we'd like to keep it that way.

I see Robert is back, for which I'm happy. But please, let's keep the 
spirit high.


--
Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org


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Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

2003-02-04 Thread Robert Simmons 
What exactly does this attitude serve. If you don't want people's opinion,
don't post to a public mailing list. Enough of this topic, its quite clear
that you value your sarcasm over honest answers.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 2:12 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production


Greaaat. Thanks for saving me a couple of weeks work. I'll make a note
in my documents, "Robert said XML was OK."
It's fine to hold you responsible right?

Once again, as carefully noted in my first post:
a) not my opinion.
b) xml is cool.

If you want to comment on your xml success in your production systems,
great, otherwise, drsvp.



-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

you can have the 100k Porsche, Ill take the half a million dollar
Ferrari.

I have been doing XSL for quite a while. I'm relatively new to cocoon,
not to
XML. People that use XML for logic and programming need to have their
head
examined IMHO.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:34 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Oh. OK. We shall see when you start programming in xml, xslt, xpath,
xthis, xthat.

Unless you're well endowed with a bushy moustache and still love disco,
I'd recommend stay away from Ferrari's. Move on up to a Porsche.


-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

Comparing JAVA to XML is roughly like comparing a outhouse to a Ferrari.
They
are two totally different things that are made to solve totally
different
problems.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:18 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production


Actually, I'm comparing xml to java, not product to product. And that
was not my opinion; I've been sold on xml for some time; however my
experience has been system to system, not webby front-end.

Btw. It seems most people like mopeds.

Adrian Boston


-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

Huh? JSP has no object hierarchy. JSP is basically a way to write a
servlet
without having to implement the servlet interfaces. In short it is a
shortcut. The end result of JSP is always a servlet (one per JSP page).
XML/XSLT is a totally different paradigm.

In cocoon generators are used to deliver DATA. This data is in XML form.
There is no logic mixed into this data as is the case with JSP. Then The
XML
data is transformed (very mathematically) into content. This content can
be
HTML, another XML document such as a soap request, WML, PDF and so on.

So, as a matter of fact JSP mixes not only model and view but also model
view
AND controller. In the cocoon world the Generators and actions are
controllers. The XML is the model and the view is accomplished through
XSLT
transforms. Its the same for XSP. In this case an XSP is translated
into, not
a servlet like JSP, but a generator. So even though you write an XSP to
implement some functionality, this XSP is still going to be spitting out
XML
which must be transformed into content.

Comparing the two is like comparing a moped to a Ferrari. The cocoon way
is
CLEARLY superior for any number of project planning, resource management
and
software engineering reasons.

-- Derisor

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Ah, thanks for the linx.

I was debating xml, xslt versus jsp with a colleague. He noted that
although xml, xslt works well in a divided graphics/analyst/developer
big team, it eventually was scrapped for JSP. The lack of object
hierarchy and polymorphism made changes very difficult.
Can anyone provide tales of xml, xslt in a major production? (sans
company name, of course)

Thanks,

-Original Message-
From: Yves Vindevogel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example

Jeremy Ashton, who recently published a book on Cocoon, wrote a very
good "two
idots guide to Cocoon".  This document is still online somewhere.  I
guess
Jeremy can point it out, he's a frequent reader of

RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

2003-02-04 Thread Adrian Boston 
Greaaat. Thanks for saving me a couple of weeks work. I'll make a note
in my documents, "Robert said XML was OK."
It's fine to hold you responsible right?

Once again, as carefully noted in my first post:
a) not my opinion.
b) xml is cool.

If you want to comment on your xml success in your production systems,
great, otherwise, drsvp.



-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

you can have the 100k Porsche, Ill take the half a million dollar
Ferrari.

I have been doing XSL for quite a while. I'm relatively new to cocoon,
not to
XML. People that use XML for logic and programming need to have their
head
examined IMHO.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:34 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Oh. OK. We shall see when you start programming in xml, xslt, xpath,
xthis, xthat.

Unless you're well endowed with a bushy moustache and still love disco,
I'd recommend stay away from Ferrari's. Move on up to a Porsche.


-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

Comparing JAVA to XML is roughly like comparing a outhouse to a Ferrari.
They
are two totally different things that are made to solve totally
different
problems.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:18 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production


Actually, I'm comparing xml to java, not product to product. And that
was not my opinion; I've been sold on xml for some time; however my
experience has been system to system, not webby front-end.

Btw. It seems most people like mopeds.

Adrian Boston


-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

Huh? JSP has no object hierarchy. JSP is basically a way to write a
servlet
without having to implement the servlet interfaces. In short it is a
shortcut. The end result of JSP is always a servlet (one per JSP page).
XML/XSLT is a totally different paradigm.

In cocoon generators are used to deliver DATA. This data is in XML form.
There is no logic mixed into this data as is the case with JSP. Then The
XML
data is transformed (very mathematically) into content. This content can
be
HTML, another XML document such as a soap request, WML, PDF and so on.

So, as a matter of fact JSP mixes not only model and view but also model
view
AND controller. In the cocoon world the Generators and actions are
controllers. The XML is the model and the view is accomplished through
XSLT
transforms. Its the same for XSP. In this case an XSP is translated
into, not
a servlet like JSP, but a generator. So even though you write an XSP to
implement some functionality, this XSP is still going to be spitting out
XML
which must be transformed into content.

Comparing the two is like comparing a moped to a Ferrari. The cocoon way
is
CLEARLY superior for any number of project planning, resource management
and
software engineering reasons.

-- Derisor

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Ah, thanks for the linx.

I was debating xml, xslt versus jsp with a colleague. He noted that
although xml, xslt works well in a divided graphics/analyst/developer
big team, it eventually was scrapped for JSP. The lack of object
hierarchy and polymorphism made changes very difficult.
Can anyone provide tales of xml, xslt in a major production? (sans
company name, of course)

Thanks,

-Original Message-
From: Yves Vindevogel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example

Jeremy Ashton, who recently published a book on Cocoon, wrote a very
good "two
idots guide to Cocoon".  This document is still online somewhere.  I
guess
Jeremy can point it out, he's a frequent reader of this user-list.
That document gave me a lot of support and help, back in the days

> Re: Hopefully some encouragement
>
> An introductory document would prove extremely useful for the Cocoon
> cause, as it sounds great in both concept and implementation. Some of
us
> are in positions to recommend xml, xslt over the forsaken jsp, struts,
> ejb method, but cannot afford the time to master yet another complex
> st*nki

Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

2003-02-04 Thread Robert Simmons 
you can have the 100k Porsche, Ill take the half a million dollar Ferrari.

I have been doing XSL for quite a while. I'm relatively new to cocoon, not to
XML. People that use XML for logic and programming need to have their head
examined IMHO.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:34 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Oh. OK. We shall see when you start programming in xml, xslt, xpath,
xthis, xthat.

Unless you're well endowed with a bushy moustache and still love disco,
I'd recommend stay away from Ferrari's. Move on up to a Porsche.


-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

Comparing JAVA to XML is roughly like comparing a outhouse to a Ferrari.
They
are two totally different things that are made to solve totally
different
problems.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:18 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production


Actually, I'm comparing xml to java, not product to product. And that
was not my opinion; I've been sold on xml for some time; however my
experience has been system to system, not webby front-end.

Btw. It seems most people like mopeds.

Adrian Boston


-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

Huh? JSP has no object hierarchy. JSP is basically a way to write a
servlet
without having to implement the servlet interfaces. In short it is a
shortcut. The end result of JSP is always a servlet (one per JSP page).
XML/XSLT is a totally different paradigm.

In cocoon generators are used to deliver DATA. This data is in XML form.
There is no logic mixed into this data as is the case with JSP. Then The
XML
data is transformed (very mathematically) into content. This content can
be
HTML, another XML document such as a soap request, WML, PDF and so on.

So, as a matter of fact JSP mixes not only model and view but also model
view
AND controller. In the cocoon world the Generators and actions are
controllers. The XML is the model and the view is accomplished through
XSLT
transforms. Its the same for XSP. In this case an XSP is translated
into, not
a servlet like JSP, but a generator. So even though you write an XSP to
implement some functionality, this XSP is still going to be spitting out
XML
which must be transformed into content.

Comparing the two is like comparing a moped to a Ferrari. The cocoon way
is
CLEARLY superior for any number of project planning, resource management
and
software engineering reasons.

-- Derisor

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Ah, thanks for the linx.

I was debating xml, xslt versus jsp with a colleague. He noted that
although xml, xslt works well in a divided graphics/analyst/developer
big team, it eventually was scrapped for JSP. The lack of object
hierarchy and polymorphism made changes very difficult.
Can anyone provide tales of xml, xslt in a major production? (sans
company name, of course)

Thanks,

-Original Message-
From: Yves Vindevogel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example

Jeremy Ashton, who recently published a book on Cocoon, wrote a very
good "two
idots guide to Cocoon".  This document is still online somewhere.  I
guess
Jeremy can point it out, he's a frequent reader of this user-list.
That document gave me a lot of support and help, back in the days

> Re: Hopefully some encouragement
>
> An introductory document would prove extremely useful for the Cocoon
> cause, as it sounds great in both concept and implementation. Some of
us
> are in positions to recommend xml, xslt over the forsaken jsp, struts,
> ejb method, but cannot afford the time to master yet another complex
> st*nking framework.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 2:10 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> Once more ? =)
>
> Its in progress. Right now beginner documentation is a little thin.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Stefan Riegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Simple example
&g

RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

2003-02-04 Thread Adrian Boston 

Oh. OK. We shall see when you start programming in xml, xslt, xpath,
xthis, xthat.

Unless you're well endowed with a bushy moustache and still love disco,
I'd recommend stay away from Ferrari's. Move on up to a Porsche.


-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 4:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

Comparing JAVA to XML is roughly like comparing a outhouse to a Ferrari.
They
are two totally different things that are made to solve totally
different
problems.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:18 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production


Actually, I'm comparing xml to java, not product to product. And that
was not my opinion; I've been sold on xml for some time; however my
experience has been system to system, not webby front-end.

Btw. It seems most people like mopeds.

Adrian Boston


-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

Huh? JSP has no object hierarchy. JSP is basically a way to write a
servlet
without having to implement the servlet interfaces. In short it is a
shortcut. The end result of JSP is always a servlet (one per JSP page).
XML/XSLT is a totally different paradigm.

In cocoon generators are used to deliver DATA. This data is in XML form.
There is no logic mixed into this data as is the case with JSP. Then The
XML
data is transformed (very mathematically) into content. This content can
be
HTML, another XML document such as a soap request, WML, PDF and so on.

So, as a matter of fact JSP mixes not only model and view but also model
view
AND controller. In the cocoon world the Generators and actions are
controllers. The XML is the model and the view is accomplished through
XSLT
transforms. Its the same for XSP. In this case an XSP is translated
into, not
a servlet like JSP, but a generator. So even though you write an XSP to
implement some functionality, this XSP is still going to be spitting out
XML
which must be transformed into content.

Comparing the two is like comparing a moped to a Ferrari. The cocoon way
is
CLEARLY superior for any number of project planning, resource management
and
software engineering reasons.

-- Derisor

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Ah, thanks for the linx.

I was debating xml, xslt versus jsp with a colleague. He noted that
although xml, xslt works well in a divided graphics/analyst/developer
big team, it eventually was scrapped for JSP. The lack of object
hierarchy and polymorphism made changes very difficult.
Can anyone provide tales of xml, xslt in a major production? (sans
company name, of course)

Thanks,

-Original Message-
From: Yves Vindevogel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example

Jeremy Ashton, who recently published a book on Cocoon, wrote a very
good "two
idots guide to Cocoon".  This document is still online somewhere.  I
guess
Jeremy can point it out, he's a frequent reader of this user-list.
That document gave me a lot of support and help, back in the days

> Re: Hopefully some encouragement
>
> An introductory document would prove extremely useful for the Cocoon
> cause, as it sounds great in both concept and implementation. Some of
us
> are in positions to recommend xml, xslt over the forsaken jsp, struts,
> ejb method, but cannot afford the time to master yet another complex
> st*nking framework.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 2:10 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> Once more ? =)
>
> Its in progress. Right now beginner documentation is a little thin.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Stefan Riegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> > Alireza Fattahi wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > The currently cocoon web application is very complex. Is there any
>
> light
>
> > > weight example out there; some thing like blank web application in
>
> struts.
>
> > > Alireza.
>
> -
>
> > > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in
>
>

Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

2003-02-04 Thread Robert Simmons 
Comparing JAVA to XML is roughly like comparing a outhouse to a Ferrari. They
are two totally different things that are made to solve totally different
problems.

-- Robert

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 1:18 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production


Actually, I'm comparing xml to java, not product to product. And that
was not my opinion; I've been sold on xml for some time; however my
experience has been system to system, not webby front-end.

Btw. It seems most people like mopeds.

Adrian Boston


-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

Huh? JSP has no object hierarchy. JSP is basically a way to write a
servlet
without having to implement the servlet interfaces. In short it is a
shortcut. The end result of JSP is always a servlet (one per JSP page).
XML/XSLT is a totally different paradigm.

In cocoon generators are used to deliver DATA. This data is in XML form.
There is no logic mixed into this data as is the case with JSP. Then The
XML
data is transformed (very mathematically) into content. This content can
be
HTML, another XML document such as a soap request, WML, PDF and so on.

So, as a matter of fact JSP mixes not only model and view but also model
view
AND controller. In the cocoon world the Generators and actions are
controllers. The XML is the model and the view is accomplished through
XSLT
transforms. Its the same for XSP. In this case an XSP is translated
into, not
a servlet like JSP, but a generator. So even though you write an XSP to
implement some functionality, this XSP is still going to be spitting out
XML
which must be transformed into content.

Comparing the two is like comparing a moped to a Ferrari. The cocoon way
is
CLEARLY superior for any number of project planning, resource management
and
software engineering reasons.

-- Derisor

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Ah, thanks for the linx.

I was debating xml, xslt versus jsp with a colleague. He noted that
although xml, xslt works well in a divided graphics/analyst/developer
big team, it eventually was scrapped for JSP. The lack of object
hierarchy and polymorphism made changes very difficult.
Can anyone provide tales of xml, xslt in a major production? (sans
company name, of course)

Thanks,

-Original Message-
From: Yves Vindevogel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example

Jeremy Ashton, who recently published a book on Cocoon, wrote a very
good "two
idots guide to Cocoon".  This document is still online somewhere.  I
guess
Jeremy can point it out, he's a frequent reader of this user-list.
That document gave me a lot of support and help, back in the days

> Re: Hopefully some encouragement
>
> An introductory document would prove extremely useful for the Cocoon
> cause, as it sounds great in both concept and implementation. Some of
us
> are in positions to recommend xml, xslt over the forsaken jsp, struts,
> ejb method, but cannot afford the time to master yet another complex
> st*nking framework.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 2:10 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> Once more ? =)
>
> Its in progress. Right now beginner documentation is a little thin.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Stefan Riegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> > Alireza Fattahi wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > The currently cocoon web application is very complex. Is there any
>
> light
>
> > > weight example out there; some thing like blank web application in
>
> struts.
>
> > > Alireza.
>
> -
>
> > > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in
>
> the
>
> > > FAQ before posting.
>
> <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > Alireza,
> >
> > I remember my first steps with cocoon some time ago. I removed step
by
> > step lines from the sitemap until

RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

2003-02-04 Thread Adrian Boston 
Actually, I'm comparing xml to java, not product to product. And that
was not my opinion; I've been sold on xml for some time; however my
experience has been system to system, not webby front-end.

Btw. It seems most people like mopeds.

Adrian Boston


-Original Message-
From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

Huh? JSP has no object hierarchy. JSP is basically a way to write a
servlet
without having to implement the servlet interfaces. In short it is a
shortcut. The end result of JSP is always a servlet (one per JSP page).
XML/XSLT is a totally different paradigm.

In cocoon generators are used to deliver DATA. This data is in XML form.
There is no logic mixed into this data as is the case with JSP. Then The
XML
data is transformed (very mathematically) into content. This content can
be
HTML, another XML document such as a soap request, WML, PDF and so on.

So, as a matter of fact JSP mixes not only model and view but also model
view
AND controller. In the cocoon world the Generators and actions are
controllers. The XML is the model and the view is accomplished through
XSLT
transforms. Its the same for XSP. In this case an XSP is translated
into, not
a servlet like JSP, but a generator. So even though you write an XSP to
implement some functionality, this XSP is still going to be spitting out
XML
which must be transformed into content.

Comparing the two is like comparing a moped to a Ferrari. The cocoon way
is
CLEARLY superior for any number of project planning, resource management
and
software engineering reasons.

-- Derisor

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Ah, thanks for the linx.

I was debating xml, xslt versus jsp with a colleague. He noted that
although xml, xslt works well in a divided graphics/analyst/developer
big team, it eventually was scrapped for JSP. The lack of object
hierarchy and polymorphism made changes very difficult.
Can anyone provide tales of xml, xslt in a major production? (sans
company name, of course)

Thanks,

-Original Message-
From: Yves Vindevogel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example

Jeremy Ashton, who recently published a book on Cocoon, wrote a very
good "two
idots guide to Cocoon".  This document is still online somewhere.  I
guess
Jeremy can point it out, he's a frequent reader of this user-list.
That document gave me a lot of support and help, back in the days

> Re: Hopefully some encouragement
>
> An introductory document would prove extremely useful for the Cocoon
> cause, as it sounds great in both concept and implementation. Some of
us
> are in positions to recommend xml, xslt over the forsaken jsp, struts,
> ejb method, but cannot afford the time to master yet another complex
> st*nking framework.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 2:10 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> Once more ? =)
>
> Its in progress. Right now beginner documentation is a little thin.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Stefan Riegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> > Alireza Fattahi wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > The currently cocoon web application is very complex. Is there any
>
> light
>
> > > weight example out there; some thing like blank web application in
>
> struts.
>
> > > Alireza.
>
> -
>
> > > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in
>
> the
>
> > > FAQ before posting.
>
> <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > Alireza,
> >
> > I remember my first steps with cocoon some time ago. I removed step
by
> > step lines from the sitemap until I reached a minimal hello-world
> > application. While removing lines, I did read the comments etc. I
was
>
> a
>
> > good exercise.
> >
> > I did plan doing the same with the cocoon.xconf, but I lost
patience.
> >
> > Regards
> > Stefan
> >
> >
> >
-

Re: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

2003-02-04 Thread Robert Simmons 
Huh? JSP has no object hierarchy. JSP is basically a way to write a servlet
without having to implement the servlet interfaces. In short it is a
shortcut. The end result of JSP is always a servlet (one per JSP page).
XML/XSLT is a totally different paradigm.

In cocoon generators are used to deliver DATA. This data is in XML form.
There is no logic mixed into this data as is the case with JSP. Then The XML
data is transformed (very mathematically) into content. This content can be
HTML, another XML document such as a soap request, WML, PDF and so on.

So, as a matter of fact JSP mixes not only model and view but also model view
AND controller. In the cocoon world the Generators and actions are
controllers. The XML is the model and the view is accomplished through XSLT
transforms. Its the same for XSP. In this case an XSP is translated into, not
a servlet like JSP, but a generator. So even though you write an XSP to
implement some functionality, this XSP is still going to be spitting out XML
which must be transformed into content.

Comparing the two is like comparing a moped to a Ferrari. The cocoon way is
CLEARLY superior for any number of project planning, resource management and
software engineering reasons.

-- Derisor

- Original Message -
From: "Adrian Boston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 12:45 AM
Subject: RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production



Ah, thanks for the linx.

I was debating xml, xslt versus jsp with a colleague. He noted that
although xml, xslt works well in a divided graphics/analyst/developer
big team, it eventually was scrapped for JSP. The lack of object
hierarchy and polymorphism made changes very difficult.
Can anyone provide tales of xml, xslt in a major production? (sans
company name, of course)

Thanks,

-Original Message-
From: Yves Vindevogel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example

Jeremy Ashton, who recently published a book on Cocoon, wrote a very
good "two
idots guide to Cocoon".  This document is still online somewhere.  I
guess
Jeremy can point it out, he's a frequent reader of this user-list.
That document gave me a lot of support and help, back in the days

> Re: Hopefully some encouragement
>
> An introductory document would prove extremely useful for the Cocoon
> cause, as it sounds great in both concept and implementation. Some of
us
> are in positions to recommend xml, xslt over the forsaken jsp, struts,
> ejb method, but cannot afford the time to master yet another complex
> st*nking framework.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 2:10 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> Once more ? =)
>
> Its in progress. Right now beginner documentation is a little thin.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Stefan Riegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> > Alireza Fattahi wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > The currently cocoon web application is very complex. Is there any
>
> light
>
> > > weight example out there; some thing like blank web application in
>
> struts.
>
> > > Alireza.
>
> -
>
> > > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in
>
> the
>
> > > FAQ before posting.
>
> <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > Alireza,
> >
> > I remember my first steps with cocoon some time ago. I removed step
by
> > step lines from the sitemap until I reached a minimal hello-world
> > application. While removing lines, I did read the comments etc. I
was
>
> a
>
> > good exercise.
> >
> > I did plan doing the same with the cocoon.xconf, but I lost
patience.
> >
> > Regards
> > Stefan
> >
> >
> >
-
> > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in
the
> > FAQ before posting.
<http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
&g

RE: Simple example / XML / XSLT In production

2003-02-04 Thread Adrian Boston 

Ah, thanks for the linx.

I was debating xml, xslt versus jsp with a colleague. He noted that
although xml, xslt works well in a divided graphics/analyst/developer
big team, it eventually was scrapped for JSP. The lack of object
hierarchy and polymorphism made changes very difficult.
Can anyone provide tales of xml, xslt in a major production? (sans
company name, of course)

Thanks,

-Original Message-
From: Yves Vindevogel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 3:31 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Simple example

Jeremy Ashton, who recently published a book on Cocoon, wrote a very
good "two 
idots guide to Cocoon".  This document is still online somewhere.  I
guess 
Jeremy can point it out, he's a frequent reader of this user-list.
That document gave me a lot of support and help, back in the days

> Re: Hopefully some encouragement
>
> An introductory document would prove extremely useful for the Cocoon
> cause, as it sounds great in both concept and implementation. Some of
us
> are in positions to recommend xml, xslt over the forsaken jsp, struts,
> ejb method, but cannot afford the time to master yet another complex
> st*nking framework.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Simmons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 2:10 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> Once more ? =)
>
> Its in progress. Right now beginner documentation is a little thin.
>
> -- Robert
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Stefan Riegel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 8:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Simple example
>
> > Alireza Fattahi wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > The currently cocoon web application is very complex. Is there any
>
> light
>
> > > weight example out there; some thing like blank web application in
>
> struts.
>
> > > Alireza.
>
> -
>
> > > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in
>
> the
>
> > > FAQ before posting.
>
> 
>
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > Alireza,
> >
> > I remember my first steps with cocoon some time ago. I removed step
by
> > step lines from the sitemap until I reached a minimal hello-world
> > application. While removing lines, I did read the comments etc. I
was
>
> a
>
> > good exercise.
> >
> > I did plan doing the same with the cocoon.xconf, but I lost
patience.
> >
> > Regards
> > Stefan
> >
> >
> >
-
> > Please check that your question  has not already been answered in
the
> > FAQ before posting.

> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. 
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>
> -
> Please check that your question  has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. 
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

-- 
Kind regards,
Yves Vindevogel

Implements
Kortrijkstraat 2 bus 1  --  9700 Oudenaarde  --  Belgium
Phone/Fax: +32 (55) 45.74.73  --  Mobile: +32 (478) 80.82.91
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  --  www.implements.be

Quote: The winner never says participating is more important than
winning.

-
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