Re: Florida election shenanigans caught on tape
At 03:04 PM 11/19/2004, Brian Behlendorf wrote: >This may be completely inappropriate for this list... but this, is so, >*wrong*. And no matter what side of the political spectrum you sit on, I know >transparency and auditability and trust is important to you - that's why >you're here at Apache. And yes, this is news; not a rehash of what you heard >second-hand was debunked, or whatever. > >http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-22.htm All very sensational - lots of 'evidence', but I'm waiting for major media to pick up on it... http://slate.msn.com/id/2109141/ http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2004/11/12/hysteria/index_np.html http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/columnists/fred_grimm/10137159.htm?1c http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41106-2004Nov10.html Not much there yet. If it can be proven, a Pulitzer story for one media outlet or another. The only problem, of course, is the lack of audit and accountability. The only result (if proved true) is the complete loss of faith in any form of electronic voting by the general public for at least the next 20 years. Vote fraud occurred. Not an opinion, but a historical trend dating from the outset of democratic elections. The goal has to be deter and minimize. In the end, the electoral college decides, so if there was enough fraud to tip the balance, someone better provide plausible and complete documentation to the electoral college soon :) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Florida election shenanigans caught on tape
On Saturday 20 November 2004 05:04, Brian Behlendorf wrote: > This may be completely inappropriate for this list... Yes it is. ASF is not political, and AFAIU fairly international, and for the non-USA community, this doesn't concern us any more than dirty politics in other countries. > but this, is so, *wrong*. Yes it is. And no matter what side of the political spectrum you sit on, I > know transparency and auditability and trust is important to you - that's > why you're here at Apache. When I called upon more transparency at ASF, I was 'crucified' by mainly the US-based ASF members, saying that secrecy is a necessity. IMHO, that attitude leads to the alleged actions, or the suspicion that the alledged actions could have occurred. The way you make the bed, is the way you are going to sleep. Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Florida election shenanigans caught on tape
Niclas Hedhman wrote: The way you make the bed, is the way you are going to sleep. Niclas, in case you didn't notice, the ASF is *NOT* a democracy. -- Stefano. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Florida election shenanigans caught on tape
On Saturday 20 November 2004 17:38, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: > Niclas Hedhman wrote: > > The way you make the bed, is the way you are going to sleep. > > in case you didn't notice, the ASF is *NOT* a democracy. I wasn't making a comment from a democratic PoV. And if any 'democratic' principles, such as transparency, representation through election, certain rights and freedom, disqualify from being mentioned in the ASF, then why does Brian think the Florida election should at all be mentioned here?? Cheers Niclas -- +--//---+ / http://www.bali.ac/ / http://niclas.hedhman.org / +--//---+ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Florida election shenanigans caught on tape
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote: > The only result (if proved true) is the complete loss of faith > in any form of electronic voting by the general public for at > least the next 20 years. You're kidding, right? Is there anyone here who has faith in unauditable systems? Electronic voting, at least as "practiced" here in the USA, is a farce, and a disaster either waiting to happen, or already happening. And this story isn't even strictly about electronic voting. It is about the deliberate destruction of whatever audit records do exist to validate the results of an election. I am in favor of any (legal) cluestick large enough to embarrass State and Federal gov'ts into sufficient action to ensure that the results of elections are what the public actually voted. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Florida election shenanigans caught on tape
Noel J. Bergman wrote: systems? Electronic voting, at least as "practiced" here in the USA, is a farce, and a disaster either waiting to happen, or already happening. And I'm wondering who (whether in Apache or elsewhere) will build the first open source electronic voting system. :) -- Serge Knystautas Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com p. 301.656.5501 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Florida election shenanigans caught on tape
On Sat, 2004-11-20 at 18:08, Noel J. Bergman wrote: > William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote: > > > The only result (if proved true) is the complete loss of faith > > in any form of electronic voting by the general public for at > > least the next 20 years. > > You're kidding, right? Is there anyone here who has faith in unauditable > systems? Electronic voting, at least as "practiced" here in the USA, is a > farce, and a disaster either waiting to happen, or already happening. And > this story isn't even strictly about electronic voting. It is about the > deliberate destruction of whatever audit records do exist to validate the > results of an election. I am in favor of any (legal) cluestick large enough > to embarrass State and Federal gov'ts into sufficient action to ensure that > the results of elections are what the public actually voted. I trust the dutch electronic voting system. Besides technical problems (when we locally introduced electronic voting, we were the last city to deliver our voting results), it works like this : - When you want to vote, you bring your passport (or any other valid ID) and your voting card. - Your passport will be checked together with your voting card, your name is called, so other voting booth staff can hear it too and your name will be manually "checked" (by means of a pen). - The voting machine is released, so that person can vote. Ones voted, the machine is automatically locked again, so no one can cast more than 1 vote or the number of allowed votes. - After voting booth closes, a printout is made with the voting results. - The number of people from the paper list will be counted and compared with the printout. - If there are any problems, they will try to find where the problem is. (manually go through all the voting cards and checked people). If still in error, the memory card with the electronic voting results will be checked). Don't know what happens when that also has an error. - If all is ok, the printout will be signed by the voting booth staff. - This paper is used as the official voting result, the electronic version will be stored for some specific time, but in normal circumstances will never be looked at again (unless there are errors of some kind). Sounds pretty safe, except when there is an electronic malfunction, it could be that some votes will be lost. Mvgr, Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Florida election shenanigans caught on tape
At 11:08 AM 11/20/2004, Noel J. Bergman wrote: >William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote: > >> The only result (if proved true) is the complete loss of faith >> in any form of electronic voting by the general public for at >> least the next 20 years. > >You're kidding, right? Is there anyone here who has faith in unauditable >systems? Let's make certain you read me right. I said "General Public". The ones who have microwaves, clock radios, electronic ovens, VCR's that still blink 12:00 since sometime in the 80's. And a PC that crashes at least once a week. If it works, they trust it, when it breaks, they don't. They will never understand the concepts behind the audits inside the computer. They can clearly understand the idea of an 'audit tape' being signed, and what happens if those are 'switched'. But right now, in general, they trust the 'machine' more than people. When that flips, they will have a very hard time regaining trust in the 'machine' - at least people apologize and resign or are fired, they are replaced by people who insist they are more honest and will restore confidence in the public trust (and have some record of service to back it up.) The machines won't proclaim they are safer. People will, but once the voting public knows that machines 'eat' or 'edit' their votes in such a way that nobody is ever aware of the changes, then they will balk. Once confidence is destroyed, no manner of encryption/transaction tracking/electronic audit will satisfy them. The only fraud arises from people (programmers, vote counters, multiple voters or 'impartial' observers), but the faith is in the machine now. That will soon be lost. One thing, paper receipts to the voter and to the voting precinct counters, will be the only method to restore the faith. Fraud will continue, but it will be back on the humans to answer for. Bill - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Florida election shenanigans caught on tape
Serge Knystautas wrote: > Noel J. Bergman wrote: > > Electronic voting, at least as "practiced" here in the USA, > > is a farce, and a disaster either waiting to happen, or > > already happening. > I'm wondering who (whether in Apache or elsewhere) will build > the first open source electronic voting system. :) I am cynical that our governments want to see any real solution. Power corrupts, and those in power corrupt the system to keep them that way. FWIW, another list member sent me a private e-mail, with a reference to http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/10103931.htm?1c. At least in that case, there were audit records. But it seems that the courts have thus far refused to support a requirement that all electronic voting systems be auditable. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Florida election shenanigans caught on tape
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote: > Let's make certain you read me right. I said "General Public". > right now, in general, they trust the 'machine' more than people. > Once confidence is destroyed, no manner of encryption/transaction > tracking/electronic audit will satisfy them. And this is a bad thing? Humans SHOULD be asking hard questions, and wanting checks and balances. The greater the risks, the more confidence they should demand. Only herd animals follow blindly, and they just get led to slaughter. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Florida election shenanigans caught on tape
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Serge Knystautas writes: > Noel J. Bergman wrote: > > systems? Electronic voting, at least as "practiced" here in the USA, is a > > farce, and a disaster either waiting to happen, or already happening. And > > I'm wondering who (whether in Apache or elsewhere) will build the first > open source electronic voting system. :) open source is a red herring for voting systems -- would you be happy to vote on an unauditable, insecure, undocumented, buggy system even if it had an OSS license? The problem isn't the license, it's the lousy design. (PS: ASF link! I'm peripherally involved, and fellow Apache committer Colm McCarthaigh is deeply involved, with ICTE -- Irish Citizens for Trustworthy Evoting (http://evoting.cs.may.ie/). We've had good results lobbying against the introduction of e-voting systems in Ireland.) - --j. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh CVS iD8DBQFBn892MJF5cimLx9ARArFmAJ42EM10n2oak8eGAg4PYHNmYY/EsgCfcLSE gP/MtqV4JjyAYrSFOmiBeco= =9kre -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
