Re: Need for a clusterd megaphone via Bluetooth....
On 1/23/07 1:38 AM, "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Robert Michel wrote: >> I need some help - it is realy a pitty that Sean >> will not speach on a stage at the FOSDEM 2007 > > Are you sure? :) I'm speaking. I just meant that I would prefer to walk around and hang out with you guys than sit at a booth all day. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
Subject: Re: built-in scripting languages Date: lun 22 gen 07 04:07:26 -0700 Quoting Ben Burdette ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): > I'm all for allowing people to use whatever scripting language they > want. But I'd like the peace of mind of knowing I can write a scripted > app that will run on every OpenMoko phone out there, even if they have > no memory expansion card. I don't want the situation where the poor > user has to unload someone else's app and scripting environment in order > to use mine, or vice versa. Many early adopters will happen to be programmers. This is not the case of using a scripting language via given software, but of rolling one's own scripts. I am a rubyist, and I will not learn python only to write scripts on my telephone. If python were to be included, I'd have to remove it each time I update the main installation in order to put Ruby in. I have a suggestion: a do-it-yourself main distribution packaging site from FIC, where you can choose selected alternative components, and receive as a result your own personalized 64MB. Then, naturally, I will have to see if it is acceptable for me not to use all those applications that require those scripting languages for which there is no space on my main memory. -- * Se la Strada e la sua Virtu' non fossero state messe da parte, * K * Carlo E. Prelz - [EMAIL PROTECTED] che bisogno ci sarebbe * di parlare tanto di amore e di rettitudine? (Chuang-Tzu) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: exchange email?
Personally I don't think we need to invent a new term for existing technology. You still call your computer a computer even though it's no longer based on an 8088 CPU. I think far too many people spend far too much time making new names and reinventing wheels rather than just making the current wheel better. :) -david Redvers Davies wrote: On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 11:51 -0500, Dean Collins wrote: Hmmm well I'm not an expert so whatever you say however from my understanding it is the server that notifies the handset that there is email available for it not the handset polling the server. Thinking laterally, since handsets are NAT'd to the outside world it is impossible[0] for external mail-servers to notify the handset by making an incoming connection. The session has to be active the whole time and initiated by the client. How about, instead of calling it "push-email" we refer to it as near-real-time. At least it's more accurate. I have some ideas as to how this can be achieved without modifying the mail client. I don't want to elaborate until I know for sure which mail client will be the default. Regards, Red [0] For the value of impossible where we don't have access to the cell companies network configuration. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: how to get the video Re: Sean interview
On 1/22/07, Richard Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: And in case you're wondering what to use to play a .flv, vlc dvd player will do that. I got it like this: urpmi libdvdcss2 libdvdplay0 wxvlc vlc-plugin-a52 vlc-plugin-ogg vlc-plugin-mad If you get ffmpeg2theora (or just ffmpeg), you can transcode them to something more usable. I also happen to have a script that fetches flash movie files out of your Firefox Cache, if you happen to be using Firefox on Linux, and puts them into a folder in the current directory. It's better because it will work for other video sites. It can also transcode all of the files with ffmpeg2theora if you pass in -t as the first argument. getflashfiles.sh Description: Bourne shell script ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re:security for wiki
Someday, I'll learn to type. Joe Pfeiffer writes: >Ummm... I just updated the OpenMoko/QuestionsAndAnswers to give a >brief introduction to the problems with trying to port PalmOS apps to >Linux. I was able to do this completely anonymously. > >If registration and logins are required on that site -- and quickly ^aren't^ >we're going to take a look at it one day soon (very soon) and find all >the content replaced by ads for Viagra, nude young teens, and >can't-miss stock tips. Please, whoever is administrating the wiki, do >something about this... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
security for wiki
Ummm... I just updated the OpenMoko/QuestionsAndAnswers to give a brief introduction to the problems with trying to port PalmOS apps to Linux. I was able to do this completely anonymously. If registration and logins are required on that site -- and quickly -- we're going to take a look at it one day soon (very soon) and find all the content replaced by ads for Viagra, nude young teens, and can't-miss stock tips. Please, whoever is administrating the wiki, do something about this... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: exchange email?
On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 11:51 -0500, Dean Collins wrote: > Hmmm well I'm not an expert so whatever you say however from my > understanding it is the server that notifies the handset that there is > email available for it not the handset polling the server. Thinking laterally, since handsets are NAT'd to the outside world it is impossible[0] for external mail-servers to notify the handset by making an incoming connection. The session has to be active the whole time and initiated by the client. How about, instead of calling it "push-email" we refer to it as near-real-time. At least it's more accurate. I have some ideas as to how this can be achieved without modifying the mail client. I don't want to elaborate until I know for sure which mail client will be the default. Regards, Red [0] For the value of impossible where we don't have access to the cell companies network configuration. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Tue, 2007-01-23 at 10:12 +0800, Ben Lau wrote: > I also think that it should come with none of any scripting language > beside shell script and Javascript (by web browser). Python/Perl is > too huge. It's a balance. Size utilization against use. So, the questions I would ask if I were a proponent for having an installed high level language would be: 1) What useful software is there for this platform which has a specifical language as a dependancy. 2) What is the absolute minimum installation required to achive this functionality. The smaller your core and the more useful stuff it contributes the better chance you have of it being included by default. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
what's worse than that? a) someone that walked into the middle of it and badmouths one side as worst for going on and on about it when we shut up and the other side was the one going on and on about it and b) someone that posts the below paragraph that has nothing to do with the current conversation. MR wrote: the only thing worse than someone that goes on and on about how gnu is the only way to be etc is someone that goes on and on and on about how those people are wrong and annoying.. IMO this thread is as dead as a doornail.. On 1/23/07, David Ford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Most sales droids I know wouldn't even have a clue about either GNU or Linux :-D -david Andreas Kostyrka wrote: > * Dave Crossland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 21:37]: > >> That also wouldn't be accurate. The droid, refering to >> wikipedia-stable, might instead say: >> >> "So, it's something _different_ than Linux?" >> "Well, not really. GNU/Linux is the whole system; Linux is one part of >> the system, and it is a very important part, but it often gets >> misunderstood as the whole system. If you refer to the whole system, >> please call it GNU/Linux." >> > > You've got a quite optimistic view when it comes to sales droids ;) > > Andreas > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
You must be reading a different link. Sean's email most clearly states "in the form of a user's manual that will give credit to GNU." He also clearly stated "We'll just call it OpenMoko." It's very amusing how the GNU camp facts just sort of twist and bend like grass in the wind. -david p.s. my quotes are direct letter for letter and I do invite you to compare. Renaissance Man wrote: From: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Debate-GNU-Linux "This debate cannot be won, by either side. Sometimes intelligent people disagree, this is A Good Thing." Actually I thought it was pretty clear from Sean's comment on the matter that, with regard to OpenMoko, that GNU/Linux does indeed win the day: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001720.html Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On Monday 22 January 2007 20:07, David Ford wrote: > p.s. the more people blabber about GNU, the more I try to remove it from > my system and support non-GNU replacements. > That's obviously your prerogative, by all means. But... wow, talk about throwing out the baby with the bath water. I'm curious, which GNU software have you replaced non-GNU alternatives? Anyhow, good luck replacing: gcc make autotools glibc coreutils ... and friends. Now, I'm not using that as an example of how important GNU is, but rather to illuminate what a complete excercise in futility it would be for you to make some sort of personal stand by removing GNU software from your system. In fact, you'll be doubly hosed, because 99.9% of the free software you download and install will also themselves have been compiled with the above assortment of GNU software. Shooting oneself in the foot technically, because people can be annoying socially, is... well... a bit of a misguided solution, to put it lightly. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
If it was a windows based phone like my company phone (cingular [htc] 2125 and 8125), you'd be threatening to smash it with a baseball bat 17 times a day. Also known as the best ever possible reason why ANY other operating system is a better choice. -david Richard Bennett wrote: On Tuesday 23 January 2007 00:30, Gervais Mulongoy wrote: The best part is that neither carrier will be able to stop me from writing warez for this phone and all future OpenMokos. You're lucky it isn't a Windows mobile phone, or you'd have your phones and email tapped by the FBI if you posted that on the manufacturer's website ;o) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
the only thing worse than someone that goes on and on about how gnu is the only way to be etc is someone that goes on and on and on about how those people are wrong and annoying.. IMO this thread is as dead as a doornail.. On 1/23/07, David Ford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Most sales droids I know wouldn't even have a clue about either GNU or Linux :-D -david Andreas Kostyrka wrote: > * Dave Crossland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 21:37]: > >> That also wouldn't be accurate. The droid, refering to >> wikipedia-stable, might instead say: >> >> "So, it's something _different_ than Linux?" >> "Well, not really. GNU/Linux is the whole system; Linux is one part of >> the system, and it is a very important part, but it often gets >> misunderstood as the whole system. If you refer to the whole system, >> please call it GNU/Linux." >> > > You've got a quite optimistic view when it comes to sales droids ;) > > Andreas > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Let's call it Linux and be done with it. Declan Naughton wrote: Let's just call it GNU/Linux and be done with it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Most sales droids I know wouldn't even have a clue about either GNU or Linux :-D -david Andreas Kostyrka wrote: * Dave Crossland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 21:37]: That also wouldn't be accurate. The droid, refering to wikipedia-stable, might instead say: "So, it's something _different_ than Linux?" "Well, not really. GNU/Linux is the whole system; Linux is one part of the system, and it is a very important part, but it often gets misunderstood as the whole system. If you refer to the whole system, please call it GNU/Linux." You've got a quite optimistic view when it comes to sales droids ;) Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
I believe we already saw Sean's reply to you and he said "GNU" would be credited in the documentation. -david p.s. the more people blabber about GNU, the more I try to remove it from my system and support non-GNU replacements. this is called the point of where proselytizing is no longer informing people, it's annoying them [insert vibrant verbs as desired] and pushing them away. it also harms the FSF. consider all the bad press that happens as a side effect when you evangelize GNU. Dave Crossland wrote: On 22/01/07, MR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I just joined the mailing list but if the point of this thread is about whether the manual/box/website for openmoko should refer to it using Linux or GNU/Linux then I am 100% whole heartedly behind GNU/Linux. That's originally what this thead was about, yes. It's not clear which term FIC will adopt for their release at this point. But they did say that they will promote "OpenMoko" more than anything else as the name for the system, probably for the reasons you cited :-) If there were the possibility of replacing the kernel with say a cut down bsd kernel (just an example) but keeping all the GNU tools There is this possibility: http://www.gnusolaris.org and http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Dave Crossland wrote: I get it, okay? I disagree. Telling me that "GNU" is a "principal developer" doesn't make it so and opinions clearly vary here. So, why don't you let those of use who choose to use a more commonly accepted, no less accurate, and more generally understood name simply do so? Does the popularity of an error makes it the truth? Apparently, since we feel that is what you're espousing. And in regards to the kernel vs os theory, Linus himself takes to calling the entire system as Linux. Since he's the one that started this whole tree and everyone chose to toss their software underneath his kernel, I'm inclined to say that he and I have matching naming for this set of software. I'd say I'm tickled pink, but i'm not. So if Linus calls it Linux, where is the error? It seems to largely be more of just a matter of pedantic opinion based on a conceived notion for a given point in time. Notions change and the times have changed. -david ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Nor does it give you (or your side of the fence) the right to make
statements as fact that the other side clearly disagrees with and
continue to imply they are fact.
Such statements are just as inflammatory and to repeatedly state them is
a thinly veiled personal attack.
I stopped talking about this for a while to show maturity. During my
period of restraint Crossland has filled the void with "GNU is teh
stuff!" with every other breath. I have no anger toward Crossland, just
annoyance at the blatant "fact" pushing that isn't fact at all and the
misrepresentation of fact and implication that because he didn't see
proof of my existence and software 25 years ago then my statements
should be voided. He isn't being accurate as he bluntly stated.
That's quite annoying and stereotypical of proselytizing (yeah, I felt
the word was appropriate too by now) and you're taking the apparent view
that he is 100% right and feel necessary to hit back at anyone that
disagrees. David's response being a personal attack is vague.
There are clearly advocates on both sides of the fence and everybody
knows that you guys aren't going to agree with our opinion and we aren't
going to agree with your opinion. Note that I said opinion, not facts.
Just because GNU made a webpage on something doesn't mean it's the one
true set of facts or even factual at all.
Here are some FACTS:
- Free software existed before GNU
- Free software philosophies and movements existed before GNU
- Free software will continue to exist after GNU
- Free software philosophies and movements will continue to exist after GNU
- GNU is not the One True Way (tm) of free software, never was, and
never will be
It's okay for you to disagree, but this doesn't give you the right to
keep browbeating people into accepting the religion of GNU.
-david
Renaissance Man wrote:
David, if you're not interested in the topic take note of the subject
in your inbox and stop reading the thread. Don't troll the thread with
inflammatory arguments and personal attacks.
You may have made up your mind but there are clearly other people who
would like to continue the discussion, since they're asking questions.
Crossland was doing just that, answering someone's question.
It's okay for you to disagree, but this doesn't give you the right to
keep browbeating people into stopping the discussion.
Renaissance Man
On 22 Jan 2007, at 7:29 pm, David Schlesinger wrote:
I like to be accurate and know what I am talking about, and I like
others to be too :-)
It simply never ends, does it?
Feel entirely free to call it "GNU/Linux", "Bob/Linux", "Jim/Linux"
or whatever you like, okay. But _please_ stop proselytizing.
Have you ever noticed how folks with a zealot-like position assume,
that when you disagree with them, that it represents some failure of
adequate (or maybe adequately _repeated_) explanation on their part...?
I get it, okay? I disagree. Telling me that "GNU" is a "principal
developer" doesn't make it so and opinions clearly vary here.
So, why don't you let those of use who choose to use a more commonly
accepted, no less accurate, and more generally understood name simply
do so?
I can just see some poor fellow asking a sales-droid what the actual
difference is between "Linux" ("I've _heard_ of _that_!") and
"_GNU_/Linux".
"So, it's something _different_ than Linux?"
"Yes, it's more conducive to personal freedom and encourages
community better."
"Does it make the phone _do_ anything different?"
"Other than encouraging freedom, no."
"Um, mm-kay... I realy just wanted a cell phone... Maybe I should get
a Microsoft one instead; I've _heard_ of that. I don't what what this
GNU stuff is, but I never heard of it, so I don't know whether it
really works or not... Are you sure you don't have one that just runs
_Linux_...?"
"Sorry, nope. Ya _fascist._"
___
OpenMoko community mailing list
community@lists.openmoko.org
https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
___
OpenMoko community mailing list
community@lists.openmoko.org
https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On 1/23/07, "Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 10:12:00 pm 2007-01-22 Corey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Monday 22 January 2007 14:03, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: > > Dnia poniedziałek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisał: > > > > > I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking > > > about 6 megs here ) > > > > 6M??? > > > > http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=lua&action=search > > show that it will take much less then 1M > > Why is this even being discused... you have the ability to add anything to the phone once you get your hands on it... SO any scripting languages one desires can be added. Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he wants. For example I prefer ruby over perl, lua or python and I like using bash scripts for a lot of stuff. So having lua on my system would be more or less pointless as I don't use it myself. IMHO default install should have the really minimal setup needed to run and not one app extra. -- I also think that it should come with none of any scripting language beside shell script and Javascript (by web browser). Python/Perl is too huge. Pre-installed application should avoid the use of them. Shell script should fit for many application already. The saved space could be used to pre-install more useful applications or simply leave it for user to store files. To fit the need for advanced user, those huge package should be installed on SD card. However, we must first define the path and ask the maintainer to follow. (e.g set PYTHON_PATH to /media/sd/.neo-app/usr/share/python2.4/site-packages) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 1/22/07, Milan Votava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It's not about stealing ideas or work from a community. It's about using a community to do the job you normally have to pay for. This is the reason I don't feel particularly inclined to develop for maemo, because my impression is that not enough of the code is free to make the OS very useful on any other device. However, as long as OpenMoKo is all free (I'm willing to make an exception for the GPS daemon, because it's not an integral part of the rest of the OS), and not intentionally designed to be unportable, then it can be reused, and represents a genuine contribution to the community. As long as this is true, there are no grounds for a claim that FIC is exploiting developers for free labour. FIC is _providing_ a hardware platform that is useful to free software developers, who now have the option to develop code for it. Hardware that supports free software is _never_ a bad thing, and the people that create open hardware are usually doing it because they also like free software. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
From: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Debate-GNU-Linux "This debate cannot be won, by either side. Sometimes intelligent people disagree, this is A Good Thing." Actually I thought it was pretty clear from Sean's comment on the matter that, with regard to OpenMoko, that GNU/Linux does indeed win the day: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001720.html Renaissance Man On 23 Jan 2007, at 12:30 am, Richard Franks wrote: On 1/22/07, David Schlesinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It simply never ends, does it? One can hope :-) Next time I get another argument on this subject in my inbox, I'm going to simply email this back-to-sender, not the entire list: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Debate-GNU-Linux Thus hopefully, we can get back to the fun and interesting stuff! Of course, it may be vandalised, or 'improved' upon, but I'm also not going to touch that page again, so go ahead! Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Monday 22 January 2007 16:07, Ben Burdette wrote: > > The only potential downfall may be that everyone ends up with quite a > > few interpreters on their poor little phones... python, ruby, rhino, > > lua, perl, etc, etc.. > > That's all well and good when everyone has SPACE for every scripting > language known to man. But use 10mb here, 10mb there for scripting > languages, and suddenly there's nothing left of my 64mb of flash. > Totally. > I'm all for allowing people to use whatever scripting language they > want. But I'd like the peace of mind of knowing I can write a scripted > app that will run on every OpenMoko phone out there, even if they have > no memory expansion card. > I concur 100% ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On 1/22/07, Derek Pressnall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On a different (but related) track, I've always wanted to have a web browser that was capable of executing local cgi scripts without the need for client-side http server. Pah! Internet Explorer has had that for *ages*. But for non-windows, this might come a closer depending upon your need: http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/ As your server-side java classes can be shared with a client-side java app. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 1/22/07, David Schlesinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: It simply never ends, does it? One can hope :-) Next time I get another argument on this subject in my inbox, I'm going to simply email this back-to-sender, not the entire list: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Debate-GNU-Linux Thus hopefully, we can get back to the fun and interesting stuff! Of course, it may be vandalised, or 'improved' upon, but I'm also not going to touch that page again, so go ahead! Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
Ted Lemon writes: >On Jan 22, 2007, at 3:28 PM, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: >> So when you put your first python >> application on, ipkg will conclude you need python. When you put your >> second on, it will conclude you've alrady got python. > >Sure. So in that case it does make sense to talk about standard >versions of each interpreter, and to not talk about a standard >interpreter. Different, but equally valid questions. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re:OpenMoko at FOSDEM
Ole Tange writes: >It seems we are a few who are going to FOSDEM in Brussels this year. > >I suggest we have an informal gathering. > >Where? When? Ideas? Have a drink for me... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On Tuesday 23 January 2007 00:30, Gervais Mulongoy wrote: > The best part is that neither carrier will be able to stop me > from writing warez for this phone and all future OpenMokos. You're lucky it isn't a Windows mobile phone, or you'd have your phones and email tapped by the FBI if you posted that on the manufacturer's website ;o) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
I couldn't agree more. I can't wait to get my hands on one of these phones. More importantly I can't wait to "tell" Bell Mobility that im switching over to Rogers HEH. The best part is that neither carrier will be able to stop me from writing warez for this phone and all future OpenMokos. On 1/22/07, Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Milan Votava writes: > >It's time now to get something back. It would be nice for a community >developer to get a share of the company each time he/she makes a new >'selling' application :-) I've gotten *so* *much* from the free software community already that any piddling contributions I can give in return are only a tiny payback. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
* Ted Lemon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 23:21]: > On Jan 22, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Andra? 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: > >Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he > >wants. For example I prefer ruby over perl, lua or python and I like using > >bash scripts for a lot of stuff. So having lua on my system would be more > >or less pointless as I don't use it myself. > > I want to agree with this, but I'd like to point out one small problem with > it: if you have an app written in one of these languages, you have to install > the whole interpreter anyway. > And god forbid you should have two apps, both of which are written with the > same interpreter, both of which install their own (possibly conflicting) > version of it. conflicting versions of interpreters are quite seldom, at least in Python-land. (That's perhaps because python has some community processes that let's the developers know what will be enabled in the next version, new keywords/syntax need normally imports from __future__ *g*, e.g. taking a look at python 2.5 I can know what keywords/changes will be enabled by default in 2.6) > So in order to agree with this, we nevertheless have to talk about the > problem: how do we ensure that if an end-user wants to run an app written in > python, and another written in ruby, > and a third written in python, that they get exactly two interpreters > installed on their Neo, and not three? Python usually is pretty well back-wards compatible. In Unix-practice one just distributes the scripts/modules and uses the python that is installed on the box. Guess the same thing applies more or less to Ruby, albeit it's not yet standard on that many distributions as Python. > There are a couple of ways to solve this problem, but the point is that if > you just leave it open and let nobody solve it, you may wind up with an > unpalatable result for the end-user. > And the result for the end-user is important - if the Neo is only useful to > geeks, it can't accomplish its stated goals. ipkg install python => you get the standard python and that's it. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
So have official/unofficial packages that handle the major scripting languages. That way it's possible to have any scripting language used. The only potential downfall may be that everyone ends up with quite a few interpreters on their poor little phones... python, ruby, rhino, lua, perl, etc, etc.. That's all well and good when everyone has SPACE for every scripting language known to man. But use 10mb here, 10mb there for scripting languages, and suddenly there's nothing left of my 64mb of flash. I'm all for allowing people to use whatever scripting language they want. But I'd like the peace of mind of knowing I can write a scripted app that will run on every OpenMoko phone out there, even if they have no memory expansion card. I don't want the situation where the poor user has to unload someone else's app and scripting environment in order to use mine, or vice versa. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
OpenMoko at FOSDEM
It seems we are a few who are going to FOSDEM in Brussels this year. I suggest we have an informal gathering. Where? When? Ideas? Put them here on the list or update http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/AtFOSDEM /Ole ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Jan 22, 2007, at 3:28 PM, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: So when you put your first python application on, ipkg will conclude you need python. When you put your second on, it will conclude you've alrady got python. Sure. So in that case it does make sense to talk about standard versions of each interpreter, and to not talk about a standard interpreter. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Let's just call it GNU/Linux and be done with it. On 1/22/07, David Schlesinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Feel entirely free to call it "GNU/Linux", "Bob/Linux", "Jim/Linux" or > whatever you like, okay. But _please_ stop proselytizing. >Dude, why so prickly? I am not sure why this discussion is making you >so agitated..? We are having a discussion, and if you want it to stop, >just... stop? :-) I'm not agitated, I simply (as do others) view this whole discussion as off-topic, divisive, unproductive and out-of-place here. Why on _this_ list? Surely, you'd have more impact with your crusade if you went and pestered the Ubuntu folks to make _their_ site say "_GNU_/Linux for Human Beings." Not to mention getting the SuSe folks to change their product name to "SuSE _GNU_/Linux", and the Red Hat folks to change _theirs_ to "Red Hat _GNU_/Linux", and the Mandriva folks, and the Knoppix folks, and the Gentoo folks, etc., etc., etc. There have been literally dozens of messages on these threads, the plurality of 'em from you, and after the first half-dozen or so, there's been nothing new to say. >Does the popularity of an error makes it the truth? It sure makes it not worth clogging up an unrelated mailing list with endless messages about it. Is there other misinformation you're going to feel impelled to "correct" us on? Why don't you invest in finding a better PR agency for the FSF instead? (The fact is that the "principal designer" of the "GNU system" hasn't managed to get an actual working _system_ worth talking about put together so far, and no change in sight, in spite of having had since 1983 to work on it. The kernel isn't even "GNU" development, it was lifted pretty much wholesale from CMU's work on Mach, simply relicensed under GPL and re-christened "GNU Mach". So Avie Tevanian and the guys from CMU clearly deserve credit: the putative OS should be the "GNU/Mach System" in order to give credit to its "principal designers"...) >I would want to suggest that in fact Australians speak English, and to >discuss the history and origin of Australia. And it would be just as off-topic if you were discussing the history and origins of Australia on this mailing list as it is for you to be insisting that folks refer free software _your_ way here... >Now now, you are sailing close to Godwin's law :-) Apparently, you've never met an actual cell phone customer. Your sales-droid would have lost them a third of the way into the second sentence. Remember: by definition, half of the folks out there are of below average intelligence. They still buy cell phones. You should drop this, and stick to the subject matter of the mailing list: the FIC phone and the OpenMoko platform. As others have pointed out, you're reducing the signal-to-noise ratio with this. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Monday 22 January 2007 15:33, Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: > Let me rephrase then. Have it defined as a standard-optional component that > can be used. But isn't installed by default. Won't ipkg have dependency > resolution etc? > Yes, so the dependency aspect will likely be a non-issue; hopefully! > So have official/unofficial packages that handle the major scripting > languages. That way it's possible to have any scripting language used. > Definitely an adequate situation, as far as I can see; and additionally appears to be the model that the OpenMoko folks have perhaps already decided upon, seeing how there is currently no mention of a scripting interpreter in the platform specification. The only potential downfall may be that everyone ends up with quite a few interpreters on their poor little phones... python, ruby, rhino, lua, perl, etc, etc.. ... which of course may just end up happening anyhow, even should there be a standard default scripting environment defined on the platform. At any rate, I sure fear the sort of language war that could develop if a particular scripting language was to be selected! As far as I'm personally concerned though, I'd end up using whatever that choice happened to be, but many others a likely to have a much less relaxed attitude on the matter. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
> Feel entirely free to call it "GNU/Linux", "Bob/Linux", "Jim/Linux" or > whatever you like, okay. But _please_ stop proselytizing. >Dude, why so prickly? I am not sure why this discussion is making you >so agitated..? We are having a discussion, and if you want it to stop, >just... stop? :-) I'm not agitated, I simply (as do others) view this whole discussion as off-topic, divisive, unproductive and out-of-place here. Why on _this_ list? Surely, you'd have more impact with your crusade if you went and pestered the Ubuntu folks to make _their_ site say "_GNU_/Linux for Human Beings." Not to mention getting the SuSe folks to change their product name to "SuSE _GNU_/Linux", and the Red Hat folks to change _theirs_ to "Red Hat _GNU_/Linux", and the Mandriva folks, and the Knoppix folks, and the Gentoo folks, etc., etc., etc. There have been literally dozens of messages on these threads, the plurality of 'em from you, and after the first half-dozen or so, there's been nothing new to say. >Does the popularity of an error makes it the truth? It sure makes it not worth clogging up an unrelated mailing list with endless messages about it. Is there other misinformation you're going to feel impelled to "correct" us on? Why don't you invest in finding a better PR agency for the FSF instead? (The fact is that the "principal designer" of the "GNU system" hasn't managed to get an actual working _system_ worth talking about put together so far, and no change in sight, in spite of having had since 1983 to work on it. The kernel isn't even "GNU" development, it was lifted pretty much wholesale from CMU's work on Mach, simply relicensed under GPL and re-christened "GNU Mach". So Avie Tevanian and the guys from CMU clearly deserve credit: the putative OS should be the "GNU/Mach System" in order to give credit to its "principal designers"...) >I would want to suggest that in fact Australians speak English, and to >discuss the history and origin of Australia. And it would be just as off-topic if you were discussing the history and origins of Australia on this mailing list as it is for you to be insisting that folks refer free software _your_ way here... >Now now, you are sailing close to Godwin's law :-) Apparently, you've never met an actual cell phone customer. Your sales-droid would have lost them a third of the way into the second sentence. Remember: by definition, half of the folks out there are of below average intelligence. They still buy cell phones. You should drop this, and stick to the subject matter of the mailing list: the FIC phone and the OpenMoko platform. As others have pointed out, you're reducing the signal-to-noise ratio with this. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
> Also realize that though _you_ may not be directly using this > hypothetical scripting language, it is more than likely that one or > more of the standard apps that ship with the phone will be using it, > and that other 3rd party software that you may or may not install may > also be using it. > Yes I was talking about myself directly in this case as an example. Let me rephrase then. Have it defined as a standard-optional component that can be used. But isn't installed by default. Won't ipkg have dependency resolution etc? So have official/unofficial packages that handle the major scripting languages. That way it's possible to have any scripting language used. [OT]As for other software I'll probably be using a lot of it when I get a Neo with wifi. Reason being that it would help me be connected to the net basicaly anywhere I would go. Be it on-site at a client or attending class or at home etc... Before that though I already have two cell phones that don't have wifi so I won't be spending any more on such devices. I am a geek but I like functional things so a cell phone without wifi is atm to me useless. Please don't comment on this nor point me to the questions and answers I understand the reasons behind it.[/OT] -- Andraž "ruskie" Levstik Source Mage GNU/Linux Games grimoire guru Geek/Hacker/Tinker Hacker FAQ: http://www.plethora.net/%7eseebs/faqs/hacker.html Be sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth. Key id = F4C1F89C Key fingerprint = 6FF2 8F20 4C9D DB36 B5B6 F134 884D 72CC F4C1 F89C ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
Ted Lemon writes: > >So in order to agree with this, we nevertheless have to talk about >the problem: how do we ensure that if an end-user wants to run an app >written in python, and another written in ruby, and a third written >in python, that they get exactly two interpreters installed on their >Neo, and not three? This is a solved problem. It's my understanding (based on earlier posts to this list) that openmoko will have ipkg, which does package management and dependency tracking. So when you put your first python application on, ipkg will conclude you need python. When you put your second on, it will conclude you've alrady got python. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
built-in scripting languages
Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik writes: Why is this even being discused... you have the ability to add anything to the phone once you get your hands on it The reason is the same reason the device is being shipped with a given kernel (Linux), a given set of libraries (glibc, gtk), etc. So that when a developer writes an application, it will be known to be able to run on all shipped devices. So, in this light, it may be benificial to included a standard interpreted language that can be a known target. The benefits to having an interpreter included (esp. one that has hooks into the gui and other phone functions) are that more apps will be made available -- there are more hackers that can code up quick scripts than ones that will learn & code for a specific gui accessible only from a compiled language. And, the benefit of having a particular interpreter is that when these little apps / scripts are packaged up, you don't have a dependancy nightmare (even though this can be somewhat mitigated by a good package management system, it is only as good as the backend repository, and having self-contained packages are the simplest of all). Also, by settling on a single standard, even if it is one that some developers may have to learn, it makes it more worthwhile to learn a new scripting environment that is widely deployed on your target platform. But for these same reasons, the interpreted language target will need careful consideration, lets we get stuck with something that doesn't adequetly meet most needs. As a secondary issue, if the included interpreter is easily embeddable, then it would be nice to have it as the standard across all the included applets that can use it (i.e., it would be good if the email/sms client, phonebook manager, dialer, etc. were all scriptable). But whatever is decided on (if a single language is picked), a function library should be developed for it that includes access to all the phone specific features (in addition to the gui hooks). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Jan 22, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he wants. For example I prefer ruby over perl, lua or python and I like using bash scripts for a lot of stuff. So having lua on my system would be more or less pointless as I don't use it myself. I want to agree with this, but I'd like to point out one small problem with it: if you have an app written in one of these languages, you have to install the whole interpreter anyway. And god forbid you should have two apps, both of which are written with the same interpreter, both of which install their own (possibly conflicting) version of it. So in order to agree with this, we nevertheless have to talk about the problem: how do we ensure that if an end-user wants to run an app written in python, and another written in ruby, and a third written in python, that they get exactly two interpreters installed on their Neo, and not three? There are a couple of ways to solve this problem, but the point is that if you just leave it open and let nobody solve it, you may wind up with an unpalatable result for the end-user. And the result for the end-user is important - if the Neo is only useful to geeks, it can't accomplish its stated goals. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Monday 22 January 2007 14:49, Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: > Why is this even being discused... you have the ability to add anything to > the phone once you get your hands on it... SO any scripting languages one > desires can be added. > It's true that you have the ability to add anything to the phone. There's another important consideration to remember: OpenMoko is a platform also; an inherent aspect of such a platform is that it always come shipped with X standard api's available for developers. This is why FIC had to select a group of components: gcc, glibc, xorg/kdrive, dbus and gtk, for instance. They may decide that a scripting language would also be a necessary or beneficial feature to include in the base/standard platform -- which, to answer your question, is why this is even being discussed. > Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he > wants. > Choice is good. And so is having a known/standard/default/static api and platform to build from; when I begin writting commercial and/or free software for the OpenMoko, I will design my software according the existing OpenMoko specs, and thereby circumvent the necessity of having to verify that my customers/end users have first installed the necessary scripting language, which would additionally circumvent the probability that your phone will end up with every scripting language known to man. > So having lua on my system would be more or less pointless as I don't use it > myself. > Less than one meg of space would be potentially wasted, true enough in your case. Know that there is probably plenty of other software on the OpenMoko platform that you, yourself, will not be using. Also realize that though _you_ may not be directly using this hypothetical scripting language, it is more than likely that one or more of the standard apps that ship with the phone will be using it, and that other 3rd party software that you may or may not install may also be using it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
* "Andra?? 'ruskie' Levstik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 22:52]: > On 10:12:00 pm 2007-01-22 Corey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Monday 22 January 2007 14:03, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: > > > Dnia poniedzia??ek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisa??: > > > > > > > I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking > > > > about 6 megs here ) > > > > > > 6M??? > > > > > > http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=lua&action=search > > > show that it will take much less then 1M > > > > > Why is this even being discused... you have the ability to add anything to > the phone once you get your hands on it... SO any scripting languages one > desires can be added. > > Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he > wants. For example I prefer ruby over perl, lua or python and I like using > bash scripts for a lot of stuff. So having lua on my system would be more > or less pointless as I don't use it myself. > > IMHO default install should have the really minimal setup needed to run and > not one app extra. The problem here is, that it might be useful to have a "standard" language so that the standard apps can use it for embedded scripting. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
built-in scripting languages
I would recommend lua, It does look pretty good, I've taken a brief look at it. In fact, I'm in the processing of porting c/invoke over to 2e (c/invoke was originally done for / as part of lua, I think), due to a user's request. A couple of the design considerations for the 2e language that sets it apart from other languages, I feel, are that the core interpreter is kept small so that it can be easily understood / studied (a side project of mine is to write up an interpreter development tutorial), and the language itself has very little syntax to it so it is easy to pick up. This second feature is what can make it useful to embed into other applications -- the syntax sort of disappears. All you have is a few new operators (in addition to the standard algebraic ones), most of which are in other languages such as C. But, I agree that 2e is still too immature to be used in a product this soon (although I don't think there are any outstanding bugs in the core, and the feature set has mostly stabalized). I also like the idea of accessing javascript from outside of a web browser that Bryan mentioned, but this may be less accessable (i.e., learning curve) for some users. On a different (but related) track, I've always wanted to have a web browser that was capable of executing local cgi scripts without the need for client-side http server. This way, you could code up local applets using the same tools for developing web applications, yet they would run entirely on your local device. So your application launch script would be: /usr/bin/web-browser http:///usr/local/myapp/index.html --local-cgi=/usr/local/myapp/cgi ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
* Corey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 22:17]: > On Monday 22 January 2007 14:03, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: > > Dnia poniedzia?ek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisa?: > > > > > I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking > > > about 6 megs here ) > > > > 6M??? > > > > http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=lua&action=search > > show that it will take much less then 1M Well, that seems to be the case for the openzaurus python packages too. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On 10:12:00 pm 2007-01-22 Corey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Monday 22 January 2007 14:03, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: > > Dnia poniedziałek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisał: > > > > > I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking > > > about 6 megs here ) > > > > 6M??? > > > > http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=lua&action=search > > show that it will take much less then 1M > > Why is this even being discused... you have the ability to add anything to the phone once you get your hands on it... SO any scripting languages one desires can be added. Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he wants. For example I prefer ruby over perl, lua or python and I like using bash scripts for a lot of stuff. So having lua on my system would be more or less pointless as I don't use it myself. IMHO default install should have the really minimal setup needed to run and not one app extra. -- Andraž "ruskie" Levstik Source Mage GNU/Linux Games grimoire guru Geek/Hacker/Tinker Hacker FAQ: http://www.plethora.net/%7eseebs/faqs/hacker.html Be sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth. Key id = F4C1F89C Key fingerprint = 6FF2 8F20 4C9D DB36 B5B6 F134 884D 72CC F4C1 F89C ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
[SVHMPC] Engadget's Take on the Google Phone (fwd)
Forwarded from the Silicon Valley Homebrew Mobile Phone Club: -- Forwarded message -- Subject: [SVHMPC] Engadget's Take on the Google Phone The guys over at Engadget are publishing what looks to be a photoshopped picture of the "G-Phone." Supposedly, it's a whole-screen type affair that syncs with all your Google services. http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/18/the-google-switch-an-iphone-killer/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: how to get the video Re: Sean interview
> www.keepvid.com does what this does :-) > Or you can use this user script: http://1024k.de/bookmarklets/video-bookmarklets.html with Greasemonkey/Firefox and not have to go through third-party sites :) D. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Monday 22 January 2007 14:03, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: > Dnia poniedziałek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisał: > > > I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking > > about 6 megs here ) > > 6M??? > > http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=lua&action=search > show that it will take much less then 1M > Quite right: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ $ du -shc /usr/bin/lua* /usr/lib/*lua* /usr/include/lua* 200K/usr/bin/lua 148K/usr/bin/luac 180K/usr/lib/liblua.a 132K/usr/lib/liblua.so.5.0 112K/usr/lib/liblualib.a 76K /usr/lib/liblualib.so.5.0 12K /usr/include/lua.h 4.0K/usr/include/lualib.h 864Ktotal ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
Dnia poniedziałek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisał: > I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking > about 6 megs here ) 6M??? http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=lua&action=search show that it will take much less then 1M -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
* Dave Crossland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 21:37]: > That also wouldn't be accurate. The droid, refering to > wikipedia-stable, might instead say: > > "So, it's something _different_ than Linux?" > "Well, not really. GNU/Linux is the whole system; Linux is one part of > the system, and it is a very important part, but it often gets > misunderstood as the whole system. If you refer to the whole system, > please call it GNU/Linux." You've got a quite optimistic view when it comes to sales droids ;) Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Monday 22 January 2007 13:28, Andreas Kostyrka wrote: > * Derek Pressnall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 19:40]: > > Seeing as how there has been interest in including an interpreted > > language with the default software install (such as Python or Perl, > > etc.), and the fact that they are too big to fit in the built-in > > flash, I would like to offer up an alternative. > > Technically speaking, Python is not that big. The question is more, > how much space can we spare? > I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking about 6 megs here ), easily embedable, dynamically typed, full-featured, multi-paradigm, and has been in real-world use for many years, has two books, actively maintained, and is very popular in a few niche areas such as games scripting. I'm not offering the suggestion because it is my favorite/pet language, but because I can see that it may be a very good fit in an embedded device. http://www.lua.org http://lua-users.org/wiki/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lua_programming_language ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
At 21:21 22.1.2007, tony wrote: Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Milan Votava writes: It's time now to get something back. It would be nice for a community developer to get a share of the company each time he/she makes a new 'selling' application :-) I've gotten *so* *much* from the free software community already that any piddling contributions I can give in return are only a tiny payback. "If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." -- Isaac Newton As long as FIC and OpenMoko treat the developers with respect, we win. If I contribute code, it is with the hope that OpenMoko-based phones will give us more freedom over our means of communication, and not with an eye for monetary recompense. We are traveling a road built by those who came before. It's not quite right to start asking for toll. - Tony "As far I can see, Sean is doing his job perfectly. Congratulation!" -- Milan Votava Milan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
* Andreas Kostyrka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 21:30]: > * Derek Pressnall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 19:40]: > > Seeing as how there has been interest in including an interpreted > > language with the default software install (such as Python or Perl, > > etc.), and the fact that they are too big to fit in the built-in > > flash, I would like to offer up an alternative. > > Technically speaking, Python is not that big. A huge non-optimized Ok, without optimizing much, just packaging it up a little bit, I've managed to minimize python2.5 (supercomplete set) to less than 10MB. If anyone is interested, I can try to build an even smaller version of python that is useful. I'd second also the idea to make the embedded JavaScript available for scripting, which would be a nice language too. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 22/01/07, MR <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I just joined the mailing list but if the point of this thread is about whether the manual/box/website for openmoko should refer to it using Linux or GNU/Linux then I am 100% whole heartedly behind GNU/Linux. That's originally what this thead was about, yes. It's not clear which term FIC will adopt for their release at this point. But they did say that they will promote "OpenMoko" more than anything else as the name for the system, probably for the reasons you cited :-) If there were the possibility of replacing the kernel with say a cut down bsd kernel (just an example) but keeping all the GNU tools There is this possibility: http://www.gnusolaris.org and http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 22/01/07, David Schlesinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I like to be accurate and know what I am talking about, and I like
>others to be too :-)
It simply never ends, does it?
Well, this *is* the internet ;-)
Feel entirely free to call it "GNU/Linux", "Bob/Linux", "Jim/Linux" or
whatever you like, okay. But _please_ stop proselytizing.
Dude, why so prickly? I am not sure why this discussion is making you
so agitated..? We are having a discussion, and if you want it to stop,
just... stop? :-)
Have you ever noticed how folks with a zealot-like position assume, that
when you disagree with them, that it represents some failure of adequate
(or maybe adequately _repeated_) explanation on their part...?
We disagree, and I for one am enjoying discussing how our perspectives
differ. I want to understand your perspective, but I don't because
I've heard and seen things that contradict it. I am presenting these,
and hoping you will explain why they are wrong. Instead of asking me
to shut up...
I get it, okay? I disagree. Telling me that "GNU" is a "principal
developer" doesn't make it so and opinions clearly vary here.
So, why don't you let those of use who choose to use a more commonly
accepted, no less accurate, and more generally understood name simply do
so?
Does the popularity of an error makes it the truth?
What would you do if you heard someone say, "Australians speak American."?
I would want to suggest that in fact Australians speak English, and to
discuss the history and origin of Australia.
I can just see some poor fellow asking a sales-droid what the actual
difference is between "Linux" ("I've _heard_ of _that_!") and
"_GNU_/Linux".
"So, it's something _different_ than Linux?"
"Yes, it's more conducive to personal freedom and encourages community
better."
That also wouldn't be accurate. The droid, refering to
wikipedia-stable, might instead say:
"So, it's something _different_ than Linux?"
"Well, not really. GNU/Linux is the whole system; Linux is one part of
the system, and it is a very important part, but it often gets
misunderstood as the whole system. If you refer to the whole system,
please call it GNU/Linux."
"Does it make the phone _do_ anything different?"
"Other than encouraging freedom, no."
"Um, mm-kay... I realy just wanted a cell phone... Maybe I should get a
Microsoft one instead; I've _heard_ of that. I don't what what this GNU
stuff is, but I never heard of it, so I don't know whether it really
works or not... Are you sure you don't have one that just runs
_Linux_...?"
"Sorry, nope. Ya _fascist._"
Now now, you are sailing close to Godwin's law :-)
--
Regards,
Dave
___
OpenMoko community mailing list
community@lists.openmoko.org
https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: how to get the video Re: Sean interview
On Monday 22 January 2007 20:28, Dave Crossland wrote: > On 22/01/07, Robert Michel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Is it available in a downloadable format for people who can't view > > > Flash movies? (I'm running Linux on a PPC machine here, so nothing > > > from Adobe...) > > > > hmm I found this > > http://www.arrakis.es/~rggi3/youtube-dl/ > > www.keepvid.com does what this does :-) And in case you're wondering what to use to play a .flv, vlc dvd player will do that. I got it like this: urpmi libdvdcss2 libdvdplay0 wxvlc vlc-plugin-a52 vlc-plugin-ogg vlc-plugin-mad apt-get should be similar, you don't really need all the plugins for the .fla of course. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
tony writes: > >We are traveling a road built by those who came before. It's not quite >right to start asking for toll. Very well said. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
* Derek Pressnall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 19:40]: > Seeing as how there has been interest in including an interpreted > language with the default software install (such as Python or Perl, > etc.), and the fact that they are too big to fit in the built-in > flash, I would like to offer up an alternative. Technically speaking, Python is not that big. A huge non-optimized version in Debian Sarge, with all kinds of optional external stuff installed comes at 23MB. Optimizing Python2.5 so that it fits small devices is not exactly a problem. The question is more, how much space can we spare? Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Milan Votava writes: It's time now to get something back. It would be nice for a community developer to get a share of the company each time he/she makes a new 'selling' application :-) I've gotten *so* *much* from the free software community already that any piddling contributions I can give in return are only a tiny payback. "If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants." -- Isaac Newton As long as FIC and OpenMoko treat the developers with respect, we win. If I contribute code, it is with the hope that OpenMoko-based phones will give us more freedom over our means of communication, and not with an eye for monetary recompense. We are traveling a road built by those who came before. It's not quite right to start asking for toll. - Tony ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
> Don't troll the thread with inflammatory arguments and personal attacks. Maybe you could identify for me where I've been making these "personal attacks". As I seem to recall, _you've_ been the one casting aspersions on people's intentions, intelligence and reading comprehension. What I've done is comment that I find _the discussion_ (which ain't a person) pointless, unproductive and, yes, silly. Physician, heal thyself. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
Milan Votava writes: > >It's time now to get something back. It would be nice for a community >developer to get a share of the company each time he/she makes a new >'selling' application :-) I've gotten *so* *much* from the free software community already that any piddling contributions I can give in return are only a tiny payback. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 22 Jan 2007, at 7:49 pm, MR wrote: Actually, I think it would be far better just to call it "mokOS" or something. Mr Integrity, You might like to review these threads MR: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001720.html http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001796.html Of particular interest will probably be this post from Sean Moss-Pultz: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001720.html Renaissance Man P.S. nice name. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
I just joined the mailing list but if the point of this thread is about whether the manual/box/website for openmoko should refer to it using Linux or GNU/Linux then I am 100% whole heartedly behind GNU/Linux.. If there were the possibility of replacing the kernel with say a cut down bsd kernel (just an example) but keeping all the GNU tools then you obviously couldn't say it was running "linux" which a lot of people would still say but you could say it was running a gnu based OS.. GNU is the operating system which just happens to use a linux kernel.. it could use any other kernel.. even HURD :). Sorry for the rant! Edit: Actually, I think it would be far better just to call it "mokOS" or something.. if you call it linux or gnu/linux is equally confusing to some people.. "what, so it runs ubuntu? (redhat, suse, slackware - whichever one the person has heard of) Alan On 1/22/07, Dave Crossland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 22/01/07, Marcel de Jong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 1/21/07, Dave Crossland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > If more people are aware of why freedom and community matter, then > > they will buy more products that support freedom and community, like > > more Neos. > > How does adding three more letters and a / increase people's knowledge > on free and open software? I like to be accurate and know what I am talking about, and I like others to be too :-) If you name the system "Linux", you suggest a version of the system's origin, history, and purpose that is not true. If you call it GNU/Linux, you present a more accurate idea. This is explained in depth at http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html > Joe Schmoe goes into a store to buy a new phone. > He sees a large selection of phones in the store. He's in the market > of a smartphone, so he choses the department of smartphones. > And then goes looking at the specs and the software bundled with the phone. > He sees that he can choose between phones that run Microsoft Windows > Mobile, Symbian, PalmOS, Nokia proprietary OS, Sony/Ericsson > proprietary OS, and GNU/Linux. > Then looks at the software. Okay, Windows has a nice layout, and has > some really nice apps. > PalmOS' UI is nicely integrated, all apps look decent, though the > input system is something to get used to. > Symbian looks dated and both S/E's as well as Nokia's system look clunky. > The GNU/Linux package looks nice too, and look this one even has GPS > built-in, and has all accessories added in the bundle for merely $350! > That looks like a great system. I'll take it. Joe is judging these phones on purely practical values. The Free Software concept is that there are things more important than practical values - although it does not say that pratical values are unimportant, they clearly are very important. What is more important than practical values? Community and freedom. > Joe Schmoe doesn't care whether it's GNU/Linux or 'just' Linux. It's > not as if he's going to Google "GNU/Linux" while he's in the store to > find out the core-principles of the software. It is exactely as if he is going to do that :-) RenaissanceMan has posted in this thread that he has done just that. > What he does care about is that It Just Works(tm). If he has never had a smartphone before, he is likely to only care for practical values like if it "just works." But if he has owned a smartphone before, he will likely be frustrated with the restrictions that it has imposed on him, because of its proprietary nature. That is why there is such buzz around OpenMoko: At last, a chance to escape proprietary restrictions and get the same freedom and community we are used to with our desktops and laptops :-) > If he takes it out of the box, and charges the unit does the phone > work, can he call his buddies to tell about his new acquisition, can > he text his mates, can he use the calendar? > It should just work, and easily without having to hack the system. > (this should especially hold true for the 'consumer phone' that was > announced in Openmoko's press release) Calling the system "GNU/Linux" instead of "Linux" will not effect this, at all. > Sure, credit where credit is due, and I don't see any problem with > having the manual refer to GNU/Linux (but I also have no qualms if it > doesn't). It would be unfair if it didn't. I like to be fair. > But I think it's a bit farfetched to attribute 3 letters and a / to > all-customer awareness of the principles behind it. For many years the idea of a free software operating system was far fetched. These principles are quite potent, I'd say :-) > If someone buys the phone merely on the grounds that it runs Linux, > chances are he or she is already aware of the history and ideals > behind GNU and Linux. I disagree. The ideas behind the GNU system and the Linux kernel are very different, and many GNU/Linux users believe the system was started in 1991, by a student, for fun. This is sustained by calling the system "Linux" instead o
Re: Free Your Phone
At 20:21 22.1.2007, Dave Crossland wrote: On 22/01/07, Gervais Mulongoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sure they might take a few community-sponsored ideas and might even claim them as their own (and sell new closed phones), If you write free software for the OpenMoko platform and use a good copyleft license like the GNU GPL, you can be sure that no one will ever distribute proprietary versions of it. -- Regards, Dave It's not about stealing ideas or work from a community. It's about using a community to do the job you normally have to pay for. How many units they are going to sell if there is only standard PIM & software suite available? Zero. If someone is going to increase the value of the device and making it competitive are developers who will make applications for the platform. You can hire these developers, to have them in house - in both cases you have to pay them OR you can use guys like us to do the job in our free time and just use and control our addiction to hack whatever has a cpu & ram. I think we are going to see this 'business model' more and more in coming years since a few companies (like http://www.slimdevices.com/) has made it's fortune from being bought by other old fashion companies (like logitech) after a community add a substantial value to the original subpar product or idea... It's time now to get something back. It would be nice for a community developer to get a share of the company each time he/she makes a new 'selling' application :-) Milan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
David, if you're not interested in the topic take note of the subject
in your inbox and stop reading the thread. Don't troll the thread
with inflammatory arguments and personal attacks.
You may have made up your mind but there are clearly other people who
would like to continue the discussion, since they're asking
questions. Crossland was doing just that, answering someone's question.
It's okay for you to disagree, but this doesn't give you the right to
keep browbeating people into stopping the discussion.
Renaissance Man
On 22 Jan 2007, at 7:29 pm, David Schlesinger wrote:
I like to be accurate and know what I am talking about, and I like
others to be too :-)
It simply never ends, does it?
Feel entirely free to call it "GNU/Linux", "Bob/Linux", "Jim/Linux"
or whatever you like, okay. But _please_ stop proselytizing.
Have you ever noticed how folks with a zealot-like position assume,
that when you disagree with them, that it represents some failure
of adequate (or maybe adequately _repeated_) explanation on their
part...?
I get it, okay? I disagree. Telling me that "GNU" is a "principal
developer" doesn't make it so and opinions clearly vary here.
So, why don't you let those of use who choose to use a more
commonly accepted, no less accurate, and more generally understood
name simply do so?
I can just see some poor fellow asking a sales-droid what the
actual difference is between "Linux" ("I've _heard_ of _that_!")
and "_GNU_/Linux".
"So, it's something _different_ than Linux?"
"Yes, it's more conducive to personal freedom and encourages
community better."
"Does it make the phone _do_ anything different?"
"Other than encouraging freedom, no."
"Um, mm-kay... I realy just wanted a cell phone... Maybe I should
get a Microsoft one instead; I've _heard_ of that. I don't what
what this GNU stuff is, but I never heard of it, so I don't know
whether it really works or not... Are you sure you don't have one
that just runs _Linux_...?"
"Sorry, nope. Ya _fascist._"
___
OpenMoko community mailing list
community@lists.openmoko.org
https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 device description and picture for xoo.
Hello. On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 19:17, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: > On 1/22/07 5:56 PM, "Stefan Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 12:22, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: > >> > >> Wow somebody buy this guy a beer! > > > > Best place would be the beer event of fosdem. Friday evening. ;) > > Deal. Drinks will be on me! Heh. At least one beer be on me as thanks for having the vision and starting this big project. See you in Brussel. regards Stefan Schmidt signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Idea for one of the next Neos: Projecting the display via LEDs
Okay, I will take my statement back, it is indeed possible to bend light, but fitting a collapsed star into the Neo1973 will be kinda hard :D. But, well, theoretically, if there existed a material where the refraction index could somehow be controlled, that would be a possibility. I guess this is something we will have to wait for nano technology to bring us. - Sorry for the private mail Nigel, I forgot to reply to the list On Monday 22 January 2007 12:43, Nigel wrote: > Just for Interest: > > Two ways to bend light: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refraction > > On 1/22/07, Ulrik Rasmussen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Sunday 21 January 2007 18:46, Wil Chung wrote: > > > Dr. H., I agree that it needs a beam scanner, on first though, but does > > > > it > > > > > have to be mechanical? I know you can direct radio waves with > > > something like a phase array, might not light be directed with a phase > > > array? I don't know, as it's just a guess since they're both E&M. > > > > I don't think it is possible to "bend light", so you'll probably need > > some sort of mechanical device for it. However, I stumbled on this some > > times ago, > > which seems to fullfill the needs: > > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/5359724.stm > > > > It's basically a red and blue laser diode, aimed at a very tiny vibrating > > mirror. The problem is, as the article says, that they can't use green > > diodes, because these aren't small enough. I don't know the technical > > details > > for this obstacle though. Red and blue should be enough for text though, > > at > > least you will be able to render red, purple and blue. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
>I like to be accurate and know what I am talking about, and I like
>others to be too :-)
It simply never ends, does it?
Feel entirely free to call it "GNU/Linux", "Bob/Linux", "Jim/Linux" or
whatever you like, okay. But _please_ stop proselytizing.
Have you ever noticed how folks with a zealot-like position assume, that
when you disagree with them, that it represents some failure of adequate
(or maybe adequately _repeated_) explanation on their part...?
I get it, okay? I disagree. Telling me that "GNU" is a "principal
developer" doesn't make it so and opinions clearly vary here.
So, why don't you let those of use who choose to use a more commonly
accepted, no less accurate, and more generally understood name simply do
so?
I can just see some poor fellow asking a sales-droid what the actual
difference is between "Linux" ("I've _heard_ of _that_!") and
"_GNU_/Linux".
"So, it's something _different_ than Linux?"
"Yes, it's more conducive to personal freedom and encourages community
better."
"Does it make the phone _do_ anything different?"
"Other than encouraging freedom, no."
"Um, mm-kay... I realy just wanted a cell phone... Maybe I should get a
Microsoft one instead; I've _heard_ of that. I don't what what this GNU
stuff is, but I never heard of it, so I don't know whether it really
works or not... Are you sure you don't have one that just runs
_Linux_...?"
"Sorry, nope. Ya _fascist._"
___
OpenMoko community mailing list
community@lists.openmoko.org
https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: how to get the video Re: Sean interview
On 22/01/07, Robert Michel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Is it available in a downloadable format for people who can't view > Flash movies? (I'm running Linux on a PPC machine here, so nothing > from Adobe...) hmm I found this http://www.arrakis.es/~rggi3/youtube-dl/ www.keepvid.com does what this does :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 22/01/07, Gervais Mulongoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I just wanted a phone that I could hack on and (as corny as this sounds) to share these hacks with my peers and gain their respect. This isn't corny, this is the best reason there is: Community and Freedom! Best, -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 22/01/07, Gervais Mulongoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sure they might take a few community-sponsored ideas and might even claim them as their own (and sell new closed phones), If you write free software for the OpenMoko platform and use a good copyleft license like the GNU GPL, you can be sure that no one will ever distribute proprietary versions of it. -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 22/01/07, Marcel de Jong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 1/21/07, Dave Crossland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If more people are aware of why freedom and community matter, then > they will buy more products that support freedom and community, like > more Neos. How does adding three more letters and a / increase people's knowledge on free and open software? I like to be accurate and know what I am talking about, and I like others to be too :-) If you name the system "Linux", you suggest a version of the system's origin, history, and purpose that is not true. If you call it GNU/Linux, you present a more accurate idea. This is explained in depth at http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html Joe Schmoe goes into a store to buy a new phone. He sees a large selection of phones in the store. He's in the market of a smartphone, so he choses the department of smartphones. And then goes looking at the specs and the software bundled with the phone. He sees that he can choose between phones that run Microsoft Windows Mobile, Symbian, PalmOS, Nokia proprietary OS, Sony/Ericsson proprietary OS, and GNU/Linux. Then looks at the software. Okay, Windows has a nice layout, and has some really nice apps. PalmOS' UI is nicely integrated, all apps look decent, though the input system is something to get used to. Symbian looks dated and both S/E's as well as Nokia's system look clunky. The GNU/Linux package looks nice too, and look this one even has GPS built-in, and has all accessories added in the bundle for merely $350! That looks like a great system. I'll take it. Joe is judging these phones on purely practical values. The Free Software concept is that there are things more important than practical values - although it does not say that pratical values are unimportant, they clearly are very important. What is more important than practical values? Community and freedom. Joe Schmoe doesn't care whether it's GNU/Linux or 'just' Linux. It's not as if he's going to Google "GNU/Linux" while he's in the store to find out the core-principles of the software. It is exactely as if he is going to do that :-) RenaissanceMan has posted in this thread that he has done just that. What he does care about is that It Just Works(tm). If he has never had a smartphone before, he is likely to only care for practical values like if it "just works." But if he has owned a smartphone before, he will likely be frustrated with the restrictions that it has imposed on him, because of its proprietary nature. That is why there is such buzz around OpenMoko: At last, a chance to escape proprietary restrictions and get the same freedom and community we are used to with our desktops and laptops :-) If he takes it out of the box, and charges the unit does the phone work, can he call his buddies to tell about his new acquisition, can he text his mates, can he use the calendar? It should just work, and easily without having to hack the system. (this should especially hold true for the 'consumer phone' that was announced in Openmoko's press release) Calling the system "GNU/Linux" instead of "Linux" will not effect this, at all. Sure, credit where credit is due, and I don't see any problem with having the manual refer to GNU/Linux (but I also have no qualms if it doesn't). It would be unfair if it didn't. I like to be fair. But I think it's a bit farfetched to attribute 3 letters and a / to all-customer awareness of the principles behind it. For many years the idea of a free software operating system was far fetched. These principles are quite potent, I'd say :-) If someone buys the phone merely on the grounds that it runs Linux, chances are he or she is already aware of the history and ideals behind GNU and Linux. I disagree. The ideas behind the GNU system and the Linux kernel are very different, and many GNU/Linux users believe the system was started in 1991, by a student, for fun. This is sustained by calling the system "Linux" instead of "GNU/Linux." Let's not get lost in this bottomless pit of misconceptions and well-intended suggestions. Yes, by remaining polite and rational :-) And let's focus our efforts on making this phone a device which Just Works! :) I have no doubt about that :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
There are already (I assume) at least two very powerful scripting languages on the OpenMoko. The first is sh in whatever variant they decide to include. I've used sh to write CGI scripts on a couple of deeply embedded web servers; you'd be surprised how much can be done with just boa+busybox. The other is javascript, which I assume will be included with the web browser. Javascript is a very powerful modern scripting language (it has closures and other cool stuff that python is only now getting). Javascript gets lots of bad press because the APIs that browsers provide are often awful and incompatible, but the core Javascript language is very nice. Since a javascript interpreter is going to be provided as part of the stock build, perhaps it would be nice to allow it to be used outside of its browser sandbox? The power of Perl & Python lies not in the language itself; the power is the huge standard libraries as well as external libraries available. On an embedded platform, these cannot be necessarily counted on. Bryan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
how to get the video Re: Sean interview
Salve Alexander! On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Alexander McLeay wrote: > On 1/22/07, Tomasz Zielinski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg > >Nothing new, but still worth watch :-) > > Is it available in a downloadable format for people who can't view > Flash movies? (I'm running Linux on a PPC machine here, so nothing > from Adobe...) hmm I found this http://www.arrakis.es/~rggi3/youtube-dl/ I can't garanty if this will harm your system: curl -RO http://www.arrakis.es/~rggi3/youtube-dl/youtube-dl chmod +ux youtube-dl apt-get install python2.4 vi youtube-de change line 1 into python2.4 comment out line 104-106 - some problem with title converting ./youtube-dl http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg vlc jRvtAAXTIlg.flv The big qestion is - where is the original source of this video? Can we get it from there without flash? Thanks to Tomasz - I didn't now this video and it worth looking it :))) Greetings rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: unpowered usb host idea (hack)
Salve Derek! nice idea :) On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Derek Pressnall wrote: > I realize that the reason the usb host port is unpowered is because > the phone runs at something like 3.6 volt, and powered usb requires 5 > volt, which would add the need for dc-dc converters. So, I've got an > idea... and another, someone could play with usb flash-memory and lower the power suply of this usb device down to 3.6 volt. I could imagine, that it will still work. > What about adding a power tap next to the usb port, running at the > phones native voltage? So under the battery cover we could place a small switch to give 3.6 volt to the usb connector - maybe together with a small red led to warn (when warning is neccessary). Next hack - using a cheap usb flash-memory and spend this memory a mini USB connector fit into Neo1973. > This should only be a matter of adding an > additional connector (and possibly protection circuitry). Then, an > adapter cable can be manufacured seperately that has a usb mini-A and > power tap connector on one end, and a full-sized usb-A on the other, > with the dc-dc circuit inbetween? This way, it leaves the potential > for powered external devices without complicating the phones > circuitry. Of course I realize that can't be included in the first > production run, but possibly an idea for the followon product. But you could influence some hardware hackers, can't waiting untill Neo1973 v.2 ;) Happy hacking, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
built-in scripting languages
Seeing as how there has been interest in including an interpreted language with the default software install (such as Python or Perl, etc.), and the fact that they are too big to fit in the built-in flash, I would like to offer up an alternative. I've been developing a small language called 2e (http://lang2e.sourceforge.net). It is currently fairly functional, and the built-in function library has most of the expected functions for text-based programming. It also includes a function for loading in external function libraries that have support for specific gui environments (i.e., similar to Perl's "use" function). Best of all, the compiled binary comes in at 150k or so (depending on compiler optimizations). If I put together an external library for it that acts as a binder to OpenMoko's gtk environment, then would an alternative language such as 2e be useful? And if there are any requests for the language, I'm willing to taylor it to specific needs (within the scope of the language design). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
(sorry for the premature post) On 22/01/07, Andreas Kostyrka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: * Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 01:38]: > I actually become aware of the FS movement via the GNU > moniker, so it worked on me. For many years I was only aware > of the OS movement (through knowing about "Linux"). Guess you wasn't to much interested in the license of the software you use? Well, I'm certainly a freak for checking the license of anything new first. *g* Yes, and the GNU GPL's introduction text is a very well written introduction to the GNU project. However, there are many people who have heard of "Linux" and "open source" and have never read any software licenses. Proprietary EULAs are so full of legal language non-sense, the idea that a software license could be interesting is very strange :-) The only way that people hear about GNU is by other people talking about it. This is why it is important that the operating system we love, which was started in the GNU project, says that it is a variant of the GNU system plus the Linux kernel. This is well explained in the essay at http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 22/01/07, Andreas Kostyrka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: * Renaissance Man <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070122 01:38]: > I actually become aware of the FS movement via the GNU > moniker, so it worked on me. For many years I was only aware > of the OS movement (through knowing about "Linux"). Guess you wasn't to much interested in the license of the software you use? Well, I'm certainly a freak for checking the license of anything new first. *g* Yes, and the GNU GPL's introduction text is a very well written introduction to the GNU project. However, there are many people who have heard of "Linux" and "open source" and have never read any software licenses. Proprietary EULAs are so full of legal language non-sense, the idea that a software license could be interesting is very strange :-) The only way that people hear about GNU is by other people talking about it. This is why it is important that the operating system we love, which was started by the GNU project, makes -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Introduction, involvement, etc.
Dan, We have some instruction on the wiki to set up a build environment and a couple of approaches to a simulator - if you could blog up those, with screenshots, it would be great (IMHO). I meant to do that this weekend but ran out of time ... :-( Michael On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Thought Fix wrote: Jon, Thanks! I am going to finish up a few more articles I have simmering for my Nokia Internet Tablet and UMPC blogs, then post some of the OpenMoko press information I picked up at CES and see how my readers respond to it. I find that the best response comes from articles that are picture and video heavy, which will have to wait until the device is released. I didn't cancel my T-Mobile account (still under contract until mid-March) when I switched to Verizon, but needed to make the switch as my mobile data needs exceeded EDGE and even push the limits of EVDO. It looks like the FIC device is a GSM/EDGE phone, so I will just go month-to-month on T-Mo if I get an OpenMoko device in my hands for testing and review. If this device could do CDMA/EVDO, I'd pounce on it in a second. Who am I kidding? I'm going to pounce on it anyway. ---Dan On 1/22/07, Jon Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 01:08 -0700, Thought Fix wrote: Hi Dan, right now there is not much released beyond information, but hopefully you could channel your ideas onto our temp wiki here: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko Also, blogging about the project and keeping its community active are great projects to support openmoko. Cool? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Register article
On Wed, 2007-01-17 at 21:17 +0100, slubman wrote: > Another article about OpenMoko on a tech site. This one talk about the > OpenMoko interface compared to iPhone one. > > The link : > http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/openmoko-smartphone-did-they-have-a-time-machine-or-what-229243.php > FYI, I added this to the press section (which is a great thing to do rather than post here as these are getting numerous)... http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/PressCoverage Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko development environment (was: Re: Built in PIM app source?)
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 22:15 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Sat, 20 Jan 2007, Sencer wrote: > > >> I would also like to see some type of tutorial for a 'hello world' on the > >> neo, or if there's an emulator available right now, it'd be nice to play > >> with. > > > > This should get you started: > > http://www.gtk.org/tutorial/ > > I've started a page on the wiki to gather information of this sort. Please > add to it, > and if anyone can think of a better way to organize this info please have at > it: > > http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/QuestionsAndAnswers > > Michael > Cool Michael, I also added some of this info on the software page under development tools section. There is much that could be documented in advance of the software/hardware release on feb 11. Great! Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gaming oportunities
Thanks for getting it to the wiki, I've been trying to finish it for a couple of hours this morning, but there is this work thing that keeps me occupied all the time. =) I'll try to flesh out my idea some more and write a couple of paragraphs on it on the wiki. -- kent On 22 jan 2007, at 09.43, Ortwin Regel wrote: I've reorganized the wiki entry and tried to add everything I could find. Feel free to add more! http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Ideas/Games Ortwin On 1/22/07, tony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kent Karlsson wrote: > Hey, > > What do you guys think about creating a nice lib which makes it easy for > games to support different multiplayer modes? > > Live connection over Bluetooth and/or GPRS (Perhaps mixed). Play by mail > over email or sms. It would be awesome if we could switch between the > modes as well for games where it makes sense. > > I realize that it won't be hard for any game to add the support, but > keeping friends list and creating everything on a per-game basis is just > plain unnecessary. > > -- kent > Now *that's* an interesting idea: a messaging layer that defaults to bluetooth, but can use either GPRS (for more-or-less real-time games) or SMS (for non-real-time games, like chess). In the instance of chess, it'd be like playing by mail, only faster. You wouldn't rely on GPRS, so your phone isn't tied up. That would limit the number of moves you get for free for some people (my plan doesn't have unlimited SMS, for instance), but it'd still be nice. Also, using SMS, the message has a certain amount of assurance it will arrive. I think this sort of framework would be invaluable, especially if you have, as you mention, a "friends list." Automate the sharing of high scores amount your group, that sort of thing. I like it. I like it a lot. - Tony ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
unpowered usb host idea (hack)
I realize that the reason the usb host port is unpowered is because the phone runs at something like 3.6 volt, and powered usb requires 5 volt, which would add the need for dc-dc converters. So, I've got an idea... What about adding a power tap next to the usb port, running at the phones native voltage? This should only be a matter of adding an additional connector (and possibly protection circuitry). Then, an adapter cable can be manufacured seperately that has a usb mini-A and power tap connector on one end, and a full-sized usb-A on the other, with the dc-dc circuit inbetween? This way, it leaves the potential for powered external devices without complicating the phones circuitry. Of course I realize that can't be included in the first production run, but possibly an idea for the followon product. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Need for a clusterd megaphone via Bluetooth....
Cheers Robert, > I will be patient and will see if OpenMoko will find a way to be on > this list: > http://www.fosdem.org/2007/schedule/days I recommend watching this instead: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/schedule/devroom/embedded Regards, :M: -- Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Need for a clusterd megaphone via Bluetooth....
Salve Michael! On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: > Robert Michel wrote: > > I need some help - it is realy a pitty that Sean > > will not speach on a stage at the FOSDEM 2007 > > Are you sure? :) Oh it was such a good opener to my idea of a clusterd megaphone - Seans talk would transmitted to every Neo1973 at the FOSDEM... at this moment is Mc'S song "Connected" running in my radio "Here we go - If you make sure you're connected" Wasn't the idea funny to broadcast all his talks? ;) Okok I missed to write a "seems" It seems that Sean will not speach - I was try to kidding him a little bit and would realy like to listen to him - and I think all others here as well. Or are you (or someone else) going to give a presentation with Sean? C'one the best time for a presentation about OpenMoko/Neo1973 is when it just be published. Sean: "I'm probably just going to be walking around and hanging out with you all." Ahhh Have I'm be the fool and Sean was kidding me? His answer was only about the table-offer. I will be patient and will see if OpenMoko will find a way to be on this list: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/schedule/days :) Cheers, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sean interview
On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Dave Crossland wrote: On 22/01/07, Alessandro Iurlano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Very nice! Did I get it wrong or he is talking about Big Companies or government in Italy (my country)? Sean, can you confirm? I am really curious if there is something going on in my country that I could partecipate to! Sean says that the Italian Forest Fires people are interested in using it to help deal with forest fires. And some of you scoffed at my idea of a phone hardened for tough environments... :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gaming oportunities
I've reorganized the wiki entry and tried to add everything I could find. Feel free to add more! http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Ideas/Games Ortwin On 1/22/07, tony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kent Karlsson wrote: > Hey, > > What do you guys think about creating a nice lib which makes it easy for > games to support different multiplayer modes? > > Live connection over Bluetooth and/or GPRS (Perhaps mixed). Play by mail > over email or sms. It would be awesome if we could switch between the > modes as well for games where it makes sense. > > I realize that it won't be hard for any game to add the support, but > keeping friends list and creating everything on a per-game basis is just > plain unnecessary. > > -- kent > Now *that's* an interesting idea: a messaging layer that defaults to bluetooth, but can use either GPRS (for more-or-less real-time games) or SMS (for non-real-time games, like chess). In the instance of chess, it'd be like playing by mail, only faster. You wouldn't rely on GPRS, so your phone isn't tied up. That would limit the number of moves you get for free for some people (my plan doesn't have unlimited SMS, for instance), but it'd still be nice. Also, using SMS, the message has a certain amount of assurance it will arrive. I think this sort of framework would be invaluable, especially if you have, as you mention, a "friends list." Automate the sharing of high scores amount your group, that sort of thing. I like it. I like it a lot. - Tony ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Need for a clusterd megaphone via Bluetooth....
Robert Michel wrote: > I need some help - it is realy a pitty that Sean > will not speach on a stage at the FOSDEM 2007 Are you sure? :) :M: -- Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Need for a clusterd megaphone via Bluetooth....
Salve! I need some help - it is realy a pitty that Sean will not speach on a stage at the FOSDEM 2007 "I'm probably just going to be walking around and hanging out with you all." http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001891.html But when he'll bring some or many Neo1973 with him, a software solution could help that everyone will hear his smaller and bigger stories about OpenMoko and the Neo1973: Because the Neo1973 will have - Bluetooth free radio connections, yeahaa!! - a mic - two 1 watt loud speaker - AGPS for getting the accurate time Someone could programm a clusterd megaphone - the Neo1973 at Seans neck will be the master broadcater - his mic will be on and the stream will be broadcasted via Bluetooth. All others Neo1973 will be relays and loudspeaker - the AGPS will help to syncronice the audio output Ok maybe with 1 ore more relays the delay will become to long - than the will be the audio output inside a room (with the help of AGPS) allows only direct receiving from Seans Neo. 24 Neo1973 would gave 24x2x1Watt=48 Watt cluster blaster. For the party in the night - we could syncronice our Neo1973 to play the same simultanious (on miliseconds accurate - thanks to AGPS) and to make some fun - 12 of us could be the group for right - the 12 others be the left - or ths cluster blaster would automaticaly organise the best sectioning. For corner sectioning lll l rrr rrr lll rr lll If someone from the upper right goes to the upper left his audio output would swith form r to l automaticaly. So no need to rent a PA for a party anymore, when enough people with OpenMoko/Neo1973 are invited :) Cheers, rob PS: Sean - even without a speach or Neo1973s it would be a plesure to meet you in BXL - no fear that I/we would expect to much - it is nice that you will come :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Next build env step (Was: Let us not forget to give every new one a *very* warm welcome - Let us write a welcome message to all new subscriber! How....)
On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 14:23 +0100, Rodolphe Ortalo wrote: > Agreed. > > Also, it seems to me that we are starting to feel the need for a > development-oriented mailing list. > E.g., thanks to some previous messages on this list, I did my homework > this week-end to setup an OpenEmbedded build environment and (probably) > managed to build some targets (nano, gpe-today, gpe-image and the like); > but I'd like some more advice if possible now: how to check that the > binaries I built are somehow operational, at least on the building host, > maybe on a hardware emulator? Etc., etc. > That's not top-level development, but (IMHO of course) it would be nice > to have such topics separated from more general ones. Yes, I agree, there needs to be another list like [EMAIL PROTECTED] to split out the dev. discussion from the community discussion, as it has scaled pretty high. Also, I think pooling up this type of intro discussions on the temp. wiki is great to point people to the new FAQ on the temp wiki. Jon > Rodolphe > > Le lundi 22 janvier 2007 à 13:02 +0100, Robert Michel a écrit : > > Salve Jose and all new or old subscriber of this list! > [...] > > One welcome message, written by us - maybe as webpage > > on openmoko.org and/or welcome mail for all new subscriber > > of the list would be a good thing - IMHO. > [...] > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Yes, let as walk into on room and you'll hanging out with us all, with talking "a bit" about OpenMoko/Neo1973 :)))) - Re: Sean, do you need a table in Brussel for the FOSDEM 2007? ; ) Re: Neo1973 devi
Salve Sean! Sean Moss-Pultz schrieb am Dienstag, den 23. Januar 2007 um 00:41h: > On 1/22/07 9:07 PM, "Robert Michel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > But Sean, when you are at the FOSDEM, do you need a table in BXL? > > Look: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/booths > > Many "Open..." there, but OpenMoko is still missing. When it belongs > > to a missing table, I could bring one with me from Aachen. > > I'm probably just going to be walking around and hanging out with you all. > But _really_ thanks for the offer! It mustn't be a perfect presentation with nice slides like in Amsterdam - at the FOSDEM you will be able to show us OpenMoko/Neo1973 live. :) Hey you've said "we are comming" so when you are comming to hanging out and have some fun someone else could tell some storries of your project and show what it is possible now - and talk with us what'll be possible in the futur. Because of A-GPS I nearly can't wait to walking around with a Neo1973 - which api will be usable to script some funny things with it? But beside walking around and hanging out with us (It seems the offerd beers have already made you weary and to relaxed), beleave me - at last when you be asked for the third (or 1 hundred times) in BXL - "Why does it have no Wifi?" or some other things that nearly everybody is interested in you will whish to go into one room with us and answer this only once for all. See: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/media/video and think that your words/presentation would be accesible for everybody - aren't you proud to show the fist Neo1973 running? Maybe with the help of freeNX very big on a wall with a beamer? Hey guys, now you see the snafu - you promised Sean the beers to early - now he fears to get drunk hardly on Friday so he will not promisee to give a presentation the days after :(( My offered cake (I alread thought to make it in the style of a Neo1973) haven't work Maby this helps: Can somebody from sweden bring a bottle like on page 29 http://www.openmoko.com/files/OpenMoko_Amsterdam.pdf to the FOSDEM to motivate Seam to give a speach¹? @Sean "Speach, speach, speach... :))) rob ¹other word for presentation ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: As I fear - no. Re: io ports besides usb & audio?
Robert Michel wrote: No public schematics yet - from early beginning I tried to motivate Sean and his team to make this device hardware hackable as well, to solder some sensors and other stuff ourself to the phone. But I don't now if I was succsessfull with this (for the v1). I'm not sure how comfortable I'd feel hacking my phone, but it would be the ultimate mod if I didn't brick it! As for sensors some Maxim chips would be great - how about adding a DS1920? why? - i'm controlling my "home" via irda or 433mhz radio - music, mp3 player, lights, everything. (no, not x10 -- completely homebrew + canbus) soldering a 433mhz remote into the case would be great. no, the bluetooth is no alternative in this case, since i'd have to write a bluetooth-stack for the atmega32-16 that controls it. I use / need irda for an awful lot of things - printing, polling machines, controling devices. Hopefully, the rev 2 will have an irda port. Dunc ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: io ports besides usb & audio?
On Mon, Jan 22, 2007 at 05:45:32PM +0100, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: > Now that's actually a really cool idea. Getting a 433/866 MHz > transceiver into the next phone would enable the Neo to be a perfect > home automation control device. I like it! That plus voice recognition software and you can do "Computer, lights on!". But i'm not sure if that consumes too much of the battery power... we'll see ;) - Soeren signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: io ports besides usb & audio?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > why? - i'm controlling my "home" via irda or 433mhz radio - music, mp3 > player, lights, everything. (no, not x10 -- completely homebrew + canbus) > soldering a 433mhz remote into the case would be great. Now that's actually a really cool idea. Getting a 433/866 MHz transceiver into the next phone would enable the Neo to be a perfect home automation control device. I like it! Regards, :M: -- Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Some IO hack ideas...Re: As I fear - no. Re: io ports besides usb & audio?
Salve soeren! [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb am Montag, den 22. Januar 2007 um 17:23h: > On Mon, Jan 22, 2007 at 05:00:52PM +0100, Robert Michel wrote: > > I hope you (and other hardware hackers) are not to much disapointed and > > do use OpenMoko and Neo1973 for cool and interesting projects and hacks. > > As more is be done, as more is populare to do with OpenMoko Neo1973 as > > more it is likly that FIC will support more connectors and build in > > things in the later generations of the Neo1973. > Not at all -- i'll find some... if it all fails, i'll try bitbanging via > the one that are used micro-sd slot ;) Hey this sounds good :))) Quick ideas: (Sean and all official Neo1973 developer please stop reading here - this ideas should give you no reason to do not use the last days untill shipping to add some smart solderpoints on the circuit board that everyone who will use the SPI, uart I2C or audio-in could hack it and spend some additional jacks to the Neo1973) The external USB could be catched internaly, the SIM slot could be multiplexed - send a high on one SIM conector and you could use a small chip to switch this port: In some of earlier threads are already some ideas around switching and multiplexing SDIO of the mikroSD and SIM slot http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/60.html Swithing the SIM port: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/000131.html Happy hacking ;) rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sean, do you need a table in Brussel for the FOSDEM 2007? ; ) Re: Neo1973 device description and picture for xoo.
On 1/22/07 9:07 PM, "Robert Michel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > But Sean, when you are at the FOSDEM, do you need a table in BXL? > Look: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/booths > Many "Open..." there, but OpenMoko is still missing. When it belongs > to a missing table, I could bring one with me from Aachen. I'm probably just going to be walking around and hanging out with you all. But _really_ thanks for the offer! -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sean, do you need a table in Brussel for the FOSDEM 2007? ; ) Re: Neo1973 device description and picture for xoo.
Robert Michel wrote: > But Sean, when you are at the FOSDEM, do you need a table in BXL? > Look: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/booths > Many "Open..." there, but OpenMoko is still missing. OpenEmbedded has a booth on which almost everything OpenMoko is absolutely on-topic and very welcome. If everything goes as planned, I'll hang around there as well, btw. Regards, :M: -- Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
As I fear - no. Re: io ports besides usb & audio?
Salve Soeren! On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > will the neo have some other i/o ports forwarded to the outside besides the > usb port and audio jack? AFAIK unhappyly not. > i'd be intersted if there is one to do spi with a microcontroller. > > if not, would there be one iside the case that may be used? are there some > schematics for the circuit board yet? No public schematics yet - from early beginning I tried to motivate Sean and his team to make this device hardware hackable as well, to solder some sensors and other stuff ourself to the phone. But I don't now if I was succsessfull with this (for the v1). > why? - i'm controlling my "home" via irda or 433mhz radio - music, mp3 > player, lights, everything. (no, not x10 -- completely homebrew + canbus) > soldering a 433mhz remote into the case would be great. no, the bluetooth is > no alternative in this case, since i'd have to write a bluetooth-stack > for the atmega32-16 that controls it. You are right, build in 433mhz tranceiver would be funny maby in later Neo1973 versions? But you could use a device like a NSLU2 with a bluetooth adapter and then link the IO on the NSLU2 via Bluetooth to your Neo1973 (using the flexibility of Linux) So you will not have to write a bluetooth-stack for your atmega, nor by expensive BlueTooth IC working with this controller. See what all is addable to the NSLU2: http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/HowTo/AddAThirtyFourPinUniversalConnector I hope you (and other hardware hackers) are not to much disapointed and do use OpenMoko and Neo1973 for cool and interesting projects and hacks. As more is be done, as more is populare to do with OpenMoko Neo1973 as more it is likly that FIC will support more connectors and build in things in the later generations of the Neo1973. Greetings, rob PS: Also a simple audio in would be great... but I fear the Neo v1 woun't have it either. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is python built-in
Robert Michel writes: >> >> I seriously doubt it. I found python RPM and it has about 10 MB >> *compressed*. All default Neo1973 software (including kernel and libs) >> must fit in 64MB flash storage... > >Why? it have a mountable microSD card (1,2, maybe 4 and more GB)- >the 128MB RAM is the counting limitation, not the flash ;) Only if the 2B flash card comes pre-installed. He was specifically talking about "default" software. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is python built-in
On ma, 2007-01-22 at 15:07 +0100, Robert Michel wrote: > Salve Mikko! > > _Default_ software. The default stuff must fit in without a microSD. > > Oh I see much power with 64MB flash and I do expect a skripting language > like python fit on the flash. But not every lib must be inside the > flash, right? It's may possible to fit it in depending on other software, sure, and certainly not everything has to be on the on-board flash, just everything in the default install. Also, my particular piece of software I was thinking of currently depends on pygnome as well and not merely Python. :] > > I'll probably install python too, via BT-PAN or GPRS, but I don't expect > > it to be in there by default. > > Can I ask you why not via install it via USB (Network or USB flash stick) or > from a microSD card (1GB starts at 16 Euro, 2GB at 46 Euro), why via GPRS? The method is of no consequence really, I merely mentioned it on the side because Jose said earlier "Considering that Neo1973 doesn't have WiFi, I can't image clients downloading python-runtime by apt using GPRS ;-)" (though I'm likely not a "client" he was talking about :). (Yes, we have affordable flat rate here.) USB-net, perhaps, if the default install will make USB-net easy. I have no motivation to tune USB networking. (With BT I will, however, tinker if FIC doesn't provide ready-made PAN support or somebody else doesn't beat me to it.) > Big flash on a PCB is quite expensive, why not live with having libs, > programms and data on the micro-SD? I don't see who was arguing against having libs, programs and data on the micro-SD. > Nokias 770 has 128 MB flash but only 64 RAM - when I could choose > I would take a Neo with 32 MB flash when it would have 256 MB RAM ;) Mmh, 64 MB RAM does seem a bit limiting, though it's an old generation already. (Ah well, I'm also not going for Nokia because of their love-hate-openness thing.) -- Mikko J Rauhala <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> University of Helsinki ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
io ports besides usb & audio?
hi, will the neo have some other i/o ports forwarded to the outside besides the usb port and audio jack? i'd be intersted if there is one to do spi with a microcontroller. if not, would there be one iside the case that may be used? are there some schematics for the circuit board yet? why? - i'm controlling my "home" via irda or 433mhz radio - music, mp3 player, lights, everything. (no, not x10 -- completely homebrew + canbus) soldering a 433mhz remote into the case would be great. no, the bluetooth is no alternative in this case, since i'd have to write a bluetooth-stack for the atmega32-16 that controls it. thanks in advance soeren signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
