Re: Signal-to-noise ratio
On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 08:37 +0100, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: Dnia poniedziałek, 22 stycznia 2007 04:51, Corey napisał: On Sunday 21 January 2007 20:43, Greg Tada wrote: I'd like to help out this project, I really would. But when zealots like Renaissance Man (Who calls themselves that? Yeah that's not pretentious at all) et al hijack this list for their own religious soapboxing, I don't have time to filter through all of the crap. I'll come back later when this crap ends. Troll alert. No, it is not troll alert. This mailing list became worse and worse during last two weeks. Nearly each longer thread goes into OffTopic discussion, more and more flamewars (Linux GNU/Linux in 'Free your phone' is best example). All of that makes this list really hard to read. Heya guys, lots of discussion is a great thing! It is great to have general discussion which means we are all hitting on something needed. During last days I look at threads, check who wrote something new and usually select 'mark all 60 mails as read' because I do not see interesting authors. From time to time I read one or two threads to find out what about thread is and mark it as 'worth reading' so next mails will get read by me. I hope that openmoko-devel will get open soon to new subscribers and that there will be someone who will have power to remove trolls from it. Well, I would challenge you all to contribute to the list constructively and positively help newbies to start collaborating. Since there is no wiki, I'm offering up my wiki space for any and all people to focus their energy. As soon as there is a public wiki, then I will move that content over there to seed it... http://rejon.org/wiki/OpenMoko Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Signal-to-noise ratio
On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 00:02 -0800, Jon Phillips wrote: On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 08:37 +0100, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: Dnia poniedziałek, 22 stycznia 2007 04:51, Corey napisał: On Sunday 21 January 2007 20:43, Greg Tada wrote: I'd like to help out this project, I really would. But when zealots like Renaissance Man (Who calls themselves that? Yeah that's not pretentious at all) et al hijack this list for their own religious soapboxing, I don't have time to filter through all of the crap. I'll come back later when this crap ends. Troll alert. No, it is not troll alert. This mailing list became worse and worse during last two weeks. Nearly each longer thread goes into OffTopic discussion, more and more flamewars (Linux GNU/Linux in 'Free your phone' is best example). All of that makes this list really hard to read. Heya guys, lots of discussion is a great thing! It is great to have general discussion which means we are all hitting on something needed. During last days I look at threads, check who wrote something new and usually select 'mark all 60 mails as read' because I do not see interesting authors. From time to time I read one or two threads to find out what about thread is and mark it as 'worth reading' so next mails will get read by me. I hope that openmoko-devel will get open soon to new subscribers and that there will be someone who will have power to remove trolls from it. Well, I would challenge you all to contribute to the list constructively and positively help newbies to start collaborating. Since there is no wiki, I'm offering up my wiki space for any and all people to focus their energy. As soon as there is a public wiki, then I will move that content over there to seed it... http://rejon.org/wiki/OpenMoko Oh, please excuse me as I didn't realize someone else beat me to the punch: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/ Let's get these discussion constructive so that when the project goes online, ppl. are online and if nothing happens with the project, at least that content is on-line and others can learn from it (I'm not being negative, but global in thinking)... Jon Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sean interview
On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 08:40 +0100, Tomasz Zielinski wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg Nothing new, but still worth watch :-) Please add this to the temp wiki. Also, the same goes for anyone else who finds press. This will cut-down on bandwidth on the list, but still collect your contribution: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/PressCoverage Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wiki + Mailing List
On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 15:17 -0700, Corey wrote: On Sunday 21 January 2007 14:20, Ted Lemon wrote: I think that if the discussion here can be tolerated, it's better because it's cross-pollinating. snip Generally speaking, what helps on mailing lists is actually two- fold. snip First, we need to exercise restraint. snip part of what perpetuates debate is people feeling that the issue is still open. snip So maybe we just have to endure for a while. I suspect this will settle out a bit once people have hardware in their hands Very well stated. This list is still experiencing its growing pains, and there's always random bursts of chaos in any healthy public forum. Yes, please focus ideas onto the temp wiki: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/ Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Introduction, involvement, etc.
Hey OpenMoko community. I had the pleasure of meeting Sean at [EMAIL PROTECTED]'s at CES. Since there has been a bit of cross-linking from this list to my Nokia Internet Tablet blog (and specifically the hacks therein and the Agere BluOnyx article) I thought I'd jump in and say hello and see if the OpenMoko phone is something to which I could contribute. To be clear: I am not a programmer. I've been a Linux hacker for a while, especially in embedded devices. The Zaurus SL-5500 was my first Linux handheld, then I had Opie on an iPaq and now I focus on the Nokia Internet Tablets. I find hacks and software, figure out how to operate them, then write howto's in my blogs. Is this something that the OpenMoko community could use? ---Dan ThoughtFix http://thoughtfix.blogspot.com http://ultramobilegeek.com ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sean's Aim...
On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 23:55 +, Justyn Butler wrote: I agree that something, anything, that will help me justify upgrading my phone every six months is needed. In my case I particularly feel the need for 3G but I want to get building right now, on v1. I'd personally settle for a minor discount on the next version for so called early adopters. But then I don't know what profit margin FIC is selling these things at. Justyn It is cool that Sean is an honest guy and I believe that the project has good intention. The one thing this list can do is figure out the clear aims/goals of the community. Please help do this on the temp wiki: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Community I think good sections would be Mission/Goal (1 sentence) and then also ways people can get involved. Jon On 21/01/07, Steve Grevemeyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice to know if Sean's aim is 1. to satisfy his and our need for open source toys like Neo or 2. to earn money like almost everybody on this planet while exploiting geeks like us to achieve his goal :-) I bet the second will prove as true... Milan The great thing about a free and open platform is that these two aims are NOT mutually exclusive! Frankly, I can't wait for one of these things -- and I hope that Sean and FIC make so much money they get compared to Microsoft! It costs a ton of money to design, test, and build hardware. It costs even MORE for software. :) The open approach dramatically reduces this cost, improves the product, and increases the overall profitability to the manufacturer. And just WAIT until the as-yet-unimagined killer app shows up! Anyone who thinks these devices are going to be cheap needs to wake up. (I'll avoid the banal free as in beer vs free as in speech converstation) What these devices need to be is affordable. $350 w/ accessories? That is actually CHEAP. My Treo cost more then that base, then I had to buy accessories! The one idea I did see in the last couple of days that I think NEED to get some serious attention is that of an upgrade path for developers. I have zero problem with the cost of the device or its capabilities for Rev1. The old Don't worry, be crappy philosophy is perfect. That and churn, baby, churn. Upgrade the unit continuously. The problem is that it gets REALLY expensive to try to keep up. Need a way to recycle the units. I'll throw out the following (going to need asbestos underwear for the flames THIS will generate): a) a formal developers program. Maybe modeled on the M$ partner program. A small yearly fee and formal registration. Not that developers are riff-raff or anything but motivation is a huge portion of this kind of development. b) Formal developers get first crack at new hardware. This concept is already being espoused -- I just think that it will need to be formalized at some point. c) An Upgrade path to facilitate continued development. Basically, when the new version comes out I send the old one back along with a reasonable upgrade fee and I get the new model. Benefits to the Developer: - access to the newest, best hardware - preservation of investment $ - credit and recognition within the community Benefits to FIC: - information on active developers - targeted audience for feedback/evaluation. I like open forums but sometime you need things a bit more focused. - Beta-test system! Both for FIC and for the community in general. Of course, I'll get the obvious what about all the developers that get excluded since they don't/won't/can't spend the money. The advantage of a formal program is that it is very easy to create an informal program. FIC/Some Vendor/Somebody can easily sponsor a developer. I.e. Somebody buys one of these units and shows they they rock, someone can step up and help them out. I've already seen stuff about getting units in the hand of select developers... The single hardest think in open source development is keeping the eye on
Re: Introduction, involvement, etc.
On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 01:08 -0700, Thought Fix wrote: Hey OpenMoko community. I had the pleasure of meeting Sean at [EMAIL PROTECTED]'s at CES. Since there has been a bit of cross-linking from this list to my Nokia Internet Tablet blog (and specifically the hacks therein and the Agere BluOnyx article) I thought I'd jump in and say hello and see if the OpenMoko phone is something to which I could contribute. To be clear: I am not a programmer. I've been a Linux hacker for a while, especially in embedded devices. The Zaurus SL-5500 was my first Linux handheld, then I had Opie on an iPaq and now I focus on the Nokia Internet Tablets. I find hacks and software, figure out how to operate them, then write howto's in my blogs. Is this something that the OpenMoko community could use? ---Dan ThoughtFix http://thoughtfix.blogspot.com http://ultramobilegeek.com Hi Dan, right now there is not much released beyond information, but hopefully you could channel your ideas onto our temp wiki here: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko Also, blogging about the project and keeping its community active are great projects to support openmoko. Cool? Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: WiFi
On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 16:25 +0100, Tomasz Zielinski wrote: 2007/1/21, Tom Berger [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'm new to the list, so I don't know whether this was already discussed, but I'm surprised (and a bit sorry) that the OpenMoKo spec doesn't include WiFi Whoa, you are right! Nobody noticed this thing before you mentioned it! NOTE to all, when newbies come on the list, it is good to just point them directly to the wiki pages where these things are outlined (as was done towards the end of this thread). Also, if the info doesn't exist, it is good to help outline on the wiki but get the new person to finish (to gain a contributor)...the ole bait on the tackle trick :) Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: How licensing discussions can tear communities apart
On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 21:02 +1030, Rod Whitby wrote: When I first started the NSLU2-Linux (www.nslu2-linux.org) project 2.5 years ago, I explicitly banned all discussion of licensing on the mailing list (nslu2-linux is a mixture of mostly GPL and MIT licenses, but also has some proprietary Intel licensed microcode due to the hardware). Why did I do that? Because I saw how devastating licensing discussion wars can be to a community when I was part of the Linksys WRT54G custom firmware development community. There were *death* *threats* made over licensing disagreements in that community. Do you really want to repeat that? I plead with the administrators of this mailing list to put the same ban in effect here (or for the subscribers to put such a voluntary code of conduct into effect). The intended licensing and manifesto of OpenMoko has been clearly spelled out at the inception of the project. Let's leave it at that and not rip this community apart before it has even properly formed. -- Rod Whitby -- NSLU2-Linux Project Lead I think limiting any discussion is like limiting free speech, where do you ever draw the line. Rather, let's move this type of discussion to the wiki where people can hack it out ad infinatum and let developers do what developers do best: dream and hack. http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: upgrade options for early adopters
On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 14:57 -0500, Andrew Turner wrote: This is a thought that seems inspired by other early adopter programs like Nokia's N770 internet tablet, which was just superseded by the N800, with new OS versions not backwards compatible. Therefore, the devs users of the Rev1 device are left to purchase, for full price, the new version to keep up to speed. However, Nokia is offering 500 units for 99 Euro to 'select' developers, yet to be announced. The new version does incorporate many suggestions by devs - but the path for this was not clear. I think OpenMoKo could learn a lot by looking how the rollout and support the N770 has gone over the past year, both good and bad aspects (mostly good) Andrew Heya guys, could you hash out your upgrade options on the public temp. wiki: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko That way you will give the openmoko ppl. something to work with. Jon On 1/21/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would love to have one, incl. a voting schema for hardware features ;-) The phrase designed by committee is occurring to me right about now... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Wish for 2nd generation Neo: USB 2.0
Harald Welte wrote: On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 10:23:24AM +0100, Sven Neuhaus wrote: Since everyone is drooling about the next iteration of the Neo which is exptected to include WiFi, I figured I'd add a request for USB 2.0. This allows us to use a USB VGA adapter (http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/06/08/add_a_monitor_using_usb/ - Linux driver available!). A VGA port enables the Neo2 to replace a laptop for doing presentations (in some cases) and you could even watch movies stored on its microSD card (or streamed by a BluOnyx) on a battery powered HMD! :-) Thanks, this has actually already been on our wishlist for a future generation of our phones. The main problem (with more powerful SoC) is not to provide a USB2.0 host port in the device. Can't you leave it unpowered as it is now? Or is that forbidden by the USB 2.0 spec? A UWB (ultra-wide-band: Wireless USB or IEEE 802.15.4a) would also be a *very* nice alternative. I'm not sure if the technology will be ready for primetime in late summer... -Sven ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Power for USB Host
On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 06:44 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Mikko Rauhala writes: la, 2007-01-20 kello 23:25 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer kirjoitti: Simon writes: keep in mind, you'll only get USB 1.1 speeds :( Unfortunate, but I'll take it. Actually, I'm curious as to why that decision was made... but I'll take it. It's been mentioned here before; the SoC handles the USB, and it's only capable of 1.1. As to why not a spiffier SoC, well, I just assume keeping the costs reasonable has something to do with it :] Ah, I'd missed that earlier comment. Having built a couple of devices around ST7 microes before (which also only supports 1.1), I should have anticipated it. Would one of you take the lead in documenting this topic on the wiki hardware section? http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Hardware Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: porting PalmOS apps?
On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 10:30 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Paul Bohme writes: Making legacy apps written for the Garnet OS (née Palm OS) run on Linux is decidedly non-trivial. An emulator for this is going to be part of the ACCESS Linux Platform... Interesting - so an emulator for the old 68k stuff? Yes. Their mockup of the interface shows the icon for Palm OS with the letters POS on it. Somehow, I don't think that was an accident. Heya, since this is going to be an often talked about topic, I created some stubs for this here: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Software It would be great to detail your efforts Joe, Paul and David on this. Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: exchange email?
On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 11:21 -0500, David Ford wrote: The term Push email comes from a client signing on to the server and issuing a look for ... instruction to the server. Also known as idling or long-delay poll. The logic of it is to have the client only issue new look for ... instructions when those instructions change, and until the client disconnects, the server should send i have new ... responses whenever it figures out there is new mail. Following that, the client says gimme and all are happy. The only problem with this is NAT traversal where a busy firewall ages the oldest idle connections. To combat this, developers make the client issue look for ... rather frequently if such behavior is discovered. Some developers however just play the safe route and always issue the look for ... instructions periodically. In effect, the logic of this isn't really changed from the original design. It's just done a bit differently. Some of it is really just the marketing aspect. Aunt Millie doesn't grok the protocol. She just sees the new feature! printed boldly on a high priced M$ product box :) The only truth in advertising, is that there is rarely truth in advertising. David, could you help move this discussion to the software page on our temp wiki: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Software Others, can you help as well...figuring out software that already exists will help the project. Jon -david David Schlesinger wrote: Microsoft push email isn't push at all. If you read the specifications, it's just another method of polling a server to determine if and what segments of new content is ready for transfer. I think this is true for the Outlook Web Access interface which, for instance, Evolution (and Pocket Outlook on Windows Mobile 5!) use. There's some sort of back-end interface which Outlook 2003 and Entourage can take advantage of with an Outlook Server; I'm not sure whether whatever they do there qualifies as true push email or not... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: US discount cell phone plans?
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 23:56 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Dylan Semler writes: On 1/20/07, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I'll be buying this phone, is anyone aware of a provider in the US who will give a discount on a plan if you don't get a phone with it? Speaking of US providers, since the phone is GSM, are cingular and T-mobile our only options? I'm not too familiar with which carriers use which technology. wikipedia has a list of providers and technologies at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_mobile_phone_companies A brief look gives the impression that T-Mobile and Cingular (which is renaming itself ATT) seem to be the only major ones. Heya, I put down what I know for USA coverage here: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Providers Can others help fill this out internationally please :) Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sync from Kalendar/Address to KDEPIM
Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: We're working with Funambol on SyncML and (soon) push email. A decent IMAP mail client with IMAP IDLE support would be sweet. -Sven ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: On 1/22/07 4:46 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reason I ask is I'd like to propose an OpenMoko T-shirt, with the now-official tag-line. I'd buy and where that right away. If we don't have a logo yet, perhaps that artist who joined recently could help? Michael, wishing for Free Your Phone T-shirts and stickers Coming soon... ;-) I hope I can order one together with the phone, lowers cost of shipping :) -Sven ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Text input, OpenMoko and Tengo
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 13:28 -0500, Simon wrote: Has anyone else posted this to the mailing list? http://www.strout.net/info/ideas/hexinput.html Heya, could you all channel your thoughts and ideas onto the wiki about this: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Software Jon Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
T Shirts (WAS: Re: Free Your Phone)
On 22/01/07, Sven Neuhaus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: On 1/22/07 4:46 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reason I ask is I'd like to propose an OpenMoko T-shirt, with the now-official tag-line. I'd buy and where that right away. Michael, wishing for Free Your Phone T-shirts and stickers Coming soon... ;-) I hope I can order one together with the phone, lowers cost of shipping :) LOL Yes that's a fanstastic idea! Sean, will there be a community competition on the design of the shirts? If not for the first edition, which is understandable for reasons of expediency, I hope there will be one later this year :-) The Open Clip Art Library has run design contests, for the Inkscape logo for example, and *example* details are at http://www.openclipart.org/wiki/Contests that might give you some ideas about how to run things. -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko devices and Mac OS X
On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 16:06 +0100, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: As in, GNUStep? That's an interesting thought. Ah, I forgot to mention it is not only a thought... mySTEP is an FOSS project for the Sharp Zaurus that is only waiting for appropriate open Linux based mobile phone hardware to come :-) Please inform yourself at http://www.quantum-step.com/wiki.php? page=mySTEP well, this thread is really long, but we are going to have the same compatibility/synchronization discussions, thus we need to channel these thoughts here since there are so many platforms: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Software Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Idea: Use headphone output as a remote control (infrared: control TV, stereo, etc)
On Fri, 2007-01-19 at 17:13 -0800, Pranav Desai wrote: On 1/19/07, MartinG [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This might have been suggested before, if so - ignore it ;) The idea is simply to use the (stereo) mini jack sound output of the Neo to control two infrared leds, in order to control whatever device that can be controlled by a remote control. Why two leds and stereo? I guess this is required in order to reach the high frequency conventional remote controls use. Read more here: http://features.engadget.com/2004/07/27/how-to-turn-your-ipod-in-to-a-universal-infrared-remote-control/ that is cool !! I had heard of ppl using the treo 650 as remote with the addon IR transmitter, but this is much nicer ... It will be great if we can get something similar for the Neo1973. Cool, please add your idea to our idea space on the temp wiki: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Ideas Jon -- Pranav Does anyone know if this would be possible with the sound module in the Neo1973? Maybe an idea for the Neo extras store? best regards, looking forward to whatever-date-in-february -MartinG ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Phone for the blind
On Fri, 2007-01-19 at 22:48 +0100, Marcus Bauer wrote: On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 02:48 +0530, Warren Noronha wrote: Is there a text to speech feature planned. festival (flite) is in openembedded, thus most likely it will be available in openmoko very soon, too. The same goes for sphinx (speech to text). I ask this cause a while back a friend of mine who works with the blind, was looking out for phone to for his students (who are blind) SUN has been doing lots of a11y (accessibility) work on GNOME. Imho the a11y group sits in Ireland. I'm sure they'd like to see the fruits of their work on a phone as well. As Terrence Barr from SUN is hanging out on the list, maybe he could make a contact? I think a fully accessible phone would just be an awsome proof of the strength of open source! If you need some names from the a11y SUN people, just ping me. Marcus Great idea guys, please add your accessibility thoughts here: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Accessibility Jon ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 device description and picture for xoo.
Hello. On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 12:22, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: On 1/22/07 2:36 AM, Stefan Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, I thought it could be fun to see and play with. http://www.datenfreihafen.org/~stefan/OpenMoko/neo1973-xoo-device.tar.bz2 Start with 'xoo --device /path/to/neo1973.xml' Wow somebody buy this guy a beer! Best place would be the beer event of fosdem. Friday evening. ;) regards Stefan Schmidt signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: About GPS, points of interest (and map data)
In my opinion a central repository is really needed, for several reasons : - this will allow anyone to share and submit new POIs, or correct them (a bit like articles on wikipedia !) - this will ensure that POIs are always up to date : POIs lists included in traditionnal navigation softwares must be manually kept up to date, and usually we must pay for them. - this will enable insertion of new and original POIs. By original I mean locations that are perhaps not well known, but that are worth of interest. My feeling on actual POIs database is that often we don't find what we are looking for. There are two reasons for that : first the database includes a preselected set of locations (for both a question of size and cost probably), secondly this preselection does not necessary fits the needs of everyday users. Did you already notice that there was more filling stations that places of tourism in most of POIs lists ? This is simply because POIs list often focus on navigation purposes, where the car driver is more interested in getting fuel than visiting monuments. As a Neo1973 owner using a shared POIs database I would be able to select POIs according to my preferred subjects, and possibly with very precise criteria. Being online such a database would be powerfull, although of course querying it would have a cost for most of us (GPRS may not be specially cheap everywhere). Also I would clearly separate POIs and navigation/map softwares : each application can be used alone, even if they benefit from each other. This is the same thing for the adress book and phone, or e-mail. Building a standalone POI application, with API for use by other software like navigation, would help to invent new applications. As an example the idea about GPS friends (http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/ideas/GPSFriends) could be implemented using dynamic POIs. The Neo would then alert us when a friend is near :-) By dynamic POIs I also mean POIs having a limited lifetime. This could be used to store temporary locations, like a show for example. This way if I get bored I could ask the Neo where is the nearest show ?. regards, Pierre. On Sunday 21 January 2007 00:03, Richard Nelson wrote: On Sunday 21 January 2007 07:47, Pierre Hébert wrote: Hi ! snip Does someone know about existing free softwares dealing with POI ? There are some existing projects, like this one for maemo : http://eko.one.pl/index.php?page=Nokia770_software#POI for maemo-mapper, but a central database is missing. This would be fairly trivial using the Google Maps API. I currently plot tracks recorded by my GPS on to Google Earth/Maps - saving points of interest (possibly into a central repos) would not be hard. And to have this built into a device carried around every day would be terrific. -- Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
* Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 01:38]: I actually become aware of the FS movement via the GNU moniker, so it worked on me. For many years I was only aware of the OS movement (through knowing about Linux). rant Guess you wasn't to much interested in the license of the software you use? Well, I'm certainly a freak for checking the license of anything new first. *g* Or just so long on the free software train, that I take liberty as an important criteria if a piece of software is relevant. I'm really not a zealot, but I usually avoid learning anything about closed things that I cannot use. And being a contractor, that means that anything forbidding commercial usage is out. OTOH, it's funny how many opensource projects make it hard to get that information. No licence page on the homepage. One sometimes needs to fetch the source to check the license. /rant Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
IMHO more a viewer problem and not a display problem one ; ) - better pdf and webbrower Re: Idea for one of the next Neos: Projecting the display via LEDs
Salve Uwe! On Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Uwe Koch wrote: it's still always the same problem: Mobile phones' displays are to small (size or resolution) to view documents, ebooks, whatever - but they are small to carry with. On the other hand PDAs are to large to carry with but are a better solution for ebooks or reading texts - but is it large enough? Yes it is - I've read complete books on my Palm 160x160. Imagine that you can view pics or even videos, on a projected part of the wall. Isn't that the solution? I love reading crazy ideas on this list, and so I'm happy to read this idea as well, but in this point I don't think it is realistic to use it inside a mobile phone and to do it. Why? Ok reading that ebooks on a screen 160x160 wasn't that comfortable, but it was possible. Remember that the Neo1973 will have a 480x640 resolution - that will be very fine for nearly unformated text. Display developement will continous and I expect even higher resolutions that 260 dpi - so than a four-times higher resolution could be used for a 2-times more text - at some point 8x4 pixel chars will become to tinny, but with some more pixel small chars on a very high resolution stay readable... - did you understood me? Then back to encrease the display size - With thin displays it could be done by a second and maybe third display to slide out... When reading a book not much CPU power is needed, in most cases not even colour - so when you want to be able to read a full book 12-20h you don't want a high battery consumption for it: The display should be tranfelctive or pure refective. Than projetion on a wall does not work on the road, in the train, bus, car or plain. When you whant to use it, you said yourself you would need external power... When a plain offers external power, it is very likly that it offers a video input for the display in front of you as well. Beeing on a conference or in someones office it could be a cool 007-gimick to impress that person but a transfective display will need less or just the same power, then a LED projection... When you are somewhere where other computer, monitors and beamers are, two thinks will help you: 1. a FreeNX connection to use someone else device (Via USB, Bluetooth or GPRS) a Java FreeNX client could help to do this without installation on the guest display device 2. When the Neo1973 would have USB 2.0 a VGA adapter would be usable, but even now you have the freedem to carry a small NSLU2 with a Bluetooth and VGA adapter with you - put it in that office close to the Workstation with the big display or beamer and that make your show from the Neo1973 via Bluetooth and FreeNX. For video let it play on the NSLU2 and your Neo1973 is just the remote for this. At last - what is with formated documents like pdf? Even 1024x640 screens are not the best solution for pdf. The designer whish to have a very big white border around is making me crasy, even with my laptop - so I would like to see a pdf viewer with the function to cut all this stupid white spaces and have an manual/automatic optimising to see the information better on any display when **I** whant this: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/000406.html (my xpdf,webbrowser ideas) Both - the better pdf viewer and also using FreeNX are ways to use the power of using free software on the Neo1973 :)) and we can do it, having better solutions, from Neo1973 v1 on ;) Greetings, rob PS: I would expect that the small size beamer will be first external devices - when they need power and a non moved and good direction to the wall. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sean interview
Very nice! Did I get it wrong or he is talking about Big Companies or government in Italy (my country)? Sean, can you confirm? I am really curious if there is something going on in my country that I could partecipate to! On 1/22/07, Tomasz Zielinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg Nothing new, but still worth watch :-) -- Tomek Z. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 device description and picture for xoo.
On Monday 22 January 2007 12:17, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Wow somebody buy this guy a beer! Best place would be the beer event of fosdem. Friday evening. ;) Deal. Drinks will be on me! -Sean Does that mean Openmoko will be at FOSDEM in Brussels next month? and you are refering to this friday: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/beerevent ? I'll be there too in that case. (To the wiki-listbot, yes I'll add something to the wiki about this too, if confirmed) Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 device description and picture for xoo.
On 1/22/07 7:36 PM, Richard Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 22 January 2007 12:17, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Wow somebody buy this guy a beer! Best place would be the beer event of fosdem. Friday evening. ;) Deal. Drinks will be on me! -Sean Does that mean Openmoko will be at FOSDEM in Brussels next month? and you are refering to this friday: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/beerevent ? I'll be there too in that case. (To the wiki-listbot, yes I'll add something to the wiki about this too, if confirmed) Hehe...we'll be there. I'll buy you a drink, too. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 device description and picture for xoo.
Great!!! I'll be there!!! Jan. On 1/22/07, Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/22/07 7:36 PM, Richard Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 22 January 2007 12:17, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Wow somebody buy this guy a beer! Best place would be the beer event of fosdem. Friday evening. ;) Deal. Drinks will be on me! -Sean Does that mean Openmoko will be at FOSDEM in Brussels next month? and you are refering to this friday: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/beerevent ? I'll be there too in that case. (To the wiki-listbot, yes I'll add something to the wiki about this too, if confirmed) Hehe...we'll be there. I'll buy you a drink, too. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude. Don't complain. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Let us not forget to give every new one a *very* warm welcome - Let us write a welcome message to all new subscriber! HowTo search the Mailinglist archive:http://www.google.de/search?hl=deq=python+si
Salve Jose and all new or old subscriber of this list! As much as I'm happy that new people join this mailing list, please consider that some hundreds or thousands people are on this list and repeating low level question will generate noise. So again, I'm very happy that many new people find the way to the Openmoko community mailinglist - but we do have a small problem - Sean, the project leader and the official people are very busy to prepare the first hard/software shipping of Neo1973/OpenMoko. So the information for newcommers like www.openmoko.com with http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html or even Seans anouncement from Saturday: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/00.html is not the best way to inform and wellcome new people to give them the full information and support to join the community. Just to write Is google down? will not help the new ones to join, and it is contra productive it does scare/dismotivate them to become active and charing productive ideas or solutions. So we, the OpenMoko community, should write an wellcome article what information have been collected, which ideas and possibilies we have thought/find out yet... so that the newcommers will not flood our list with the same questions again and again. I am working in some pygtk projects and I would like to know if it is built-in the device? When I look on openmoko.com/org this question from Jose is absolutly understandable - the information about python and OpenMoko/Neo1973 is hidden in our mail archive. We could anser, please search like this: http://www.google.de/search?hl=deq=python+site%3Aopenmoko.org But that's still not perfect, or just use ipkg install phython would not be the best answer for him - he has experiances in pygtk, a concrete answer about what is supported, how much python is used for the shipped first core functions - call manager, adressbook and how python is supported in the SDK and documentation... A good and informative answer as wellcome to this list, would make him think: Hey great - this is an interesting device, but also a community that I like to join - I have a feeling that together with this guys it will be a fruitfull and funny cooperation So everybody who are on this list for a longer time should consider that our power will be based on a good and efficent cooperation - The OpenMoko community could fast grow up to 10.000 or more people who like to chare their ideas and solutions. Don't be afraid about 10.000 or more people and don't think 10 good hackers would be more efficent! So even when our list got be flooded, stay friendly and please take care to welcome the nee people and give them a good information and a good feeling - motivate them to join and help to do this in a efficent way. One welcome message, written by us - maybe as webpage on openmoko.org and/or welcome mail for all new subscriber of the list would be a good thing - IMHO. To give this welcome message a stronger community feeling we all could sign this welcome message - maybe with a small statment about us, ore skills or what we are focusing to do with OpenMoko/Neo1973. I don't want to start this thread to have a theoretical discussion whith tools would be the best (could be done sometimes later), when you answer, please focus on what we can do until the February 20th whith our mailinglist, the wiki http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko to give everybody new a very warm welcome to our community. Cheers, rob PS: We can also write a little more to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenMoko and translate it in much more languages ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Phone for the blind
Salve Warren! On Sat, 20 Jan 2007, Warren Noronha wrote: Is there a text to speech feature planned. I ask this cause a while back a friend of mine who works with the blind, was looking out for phone to for his students (who are blind) Do you know this thread: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000610.html ? The Neo1973 has an handcape that it has no buttons that you can feel, maby multitouch could blind people to type in: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/000417.html I think the PBX asterisk will be able to run on the Neo1973 - so much interaction can be realized with voice menues, scripts and TTS. Cheers, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is python built-in
2007/1/22, Jose Manrique Lopez de la Fuente [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I would like to know if python and pygtk is going to be installed in Neo1973 devices. Of course, some extra info about extra-python-features in this device would be nice. I seriously doubt it. I found python RPM and it has about 10 MB *compressed*. All default Neo1973 software (including kernel and libs) must fit in 64MB flash storage... -- Tomek Z. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is python built-in
On Monday 22 January 2007 14:03, Tomasz Zielinski wrote: 2007/1/22, Jose Manrique Lopez de la Fuente [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I would like to know if python and pygtk is going to be installed in Neo1973 devices. Of course, some extra info about extra-python-features in this device would be nice. I seriously doubt it. I found python RPM and it has about 10 MB *compressed*. All default Neo1973 software (including kernel and libs) must fit in 64MB flash storage... Hi, If I'm looking correctly, Nokia's Python for s60 platform comes in a 2 mb: http://forum.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/ee447e84-2851-471a-8387-3434345f2eb0/Python_for_S60.html Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Next build env step (Was: Let us not forget to give every new one a *very* warm welcome - Let us write a welcome message to all new subscriber! How....)
Agreed. Also, it seems to me that we are starting to feel the need for a development-oriented mailing list. E.g., thanks to some previous messages on this list, I did my homework this week-end to setup an OpenEmbedded build environment and (probably) managed to build some targets (nano, gpe-today, gpe-image and the like); but I'd like some more advice if possible now: how to check that the binaries I built are somehow operational, at least on the building host, maybe on a hardware emulator? Etc., etc. That's not top-level development, but (IMHO of course) it would be nice to have such topics separated from more general ones. Rodolphe Le lundi 22 janvier 2007 à 13:02 +0100, Robert Michel a écrit : Salve Jose and all new or old subscriber of this list! [...] One welcome message, written by us - maybe as webpage on openmoko.org and/or welcome mail for all new subscriber of the list would be a good thing - IMHO. [...] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sean, do you need a table in Brussel for the FOSDEM 2007? ; ) Re: Neo1973 device description and picture for xoo.
Robert, I'll be coming both to the beer evening and of course to FOSDEM. I live nearby Mechelen, approx. 35 kms from BXL. If I can be of any help, let me know. Marc. Sean, If you could arrange for bringing phones to save on the shipping costs, I'll buy you 2 beers!! :-) Marc. On 1/22/07, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Salve Sean! On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: On 1/22/07 7:36 PM, Richard Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 22 January 2007 12:17, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Wow somebody buy this guy a beer! Best place would be the beer event of fosdem. Friday evening. ;) Deal. Drinks will be on me! -Sean Does that mean Openmoko will be at FOSDEM in Brussels next month? and you are refering to this friday: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/beerevent ? I'll be there too in that case. (To the wiki-listbot, yes I'll add something to the wiki about this too, if confirmed) Hehe...we'll be there. I'll buy you a drink, too. I would expected that the people would came to the FOSDEM to see the OpenMoko/Neo1973 for the first time - or to save shipping cost to get one device... but comming for a free beer? Ok I was kidding, of course it would be fun to meet you! But how many people of this list would go to Brussel? BTW: We need T-Shirts till then! Anybody good graficaly ideas¹? But Sean, when you are at the FOSDEM, do you need a table in BXL? Look: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/booths Many Open... there, but OpenMoko is still missing. When it belongs to a missing table, I could bring one with me from Aachen. Cheers, rob PS: FOSDEM would be a good place to save shipping costs, but maybe it is a little bit early for many phones: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/00.html But it would be great place to see the OpenMoko/Neo1973 live - right? :)) ¹ I have a not so good one to change: vim 7iCode 7x faster!Esc. to call 7 time better: vi7Ijoin Openmoko!Esc once funny, but not for all. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is python built-in
Salve Mikko! On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Mikko J Rauhala wrote: On ma, 2007-01-22 at 14:10 +0100, Robert Michel wrote: On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Tomasz Zielinski wrote: I seriously doubt it. I found python RPM and it has about 10 MB *compressed*. All default Neo1973 software (including kernel and libs) must fit in 64MB flash storage... Why? it have a mountable microSD card (1,2, maybe 4 and more GB)- the 128MB RAM is the counting limitation, not the flash ;) _Default_ software. The default stuff must fit in without a microSD. Oh I see much power with 64MB flash and I do expect a skripting language like python fit on the flash. But not every lib must be inside the flash, right? I'll probably install python too, via BT-PAN or GPRS, but I don't expect it to be in there by default. Can I ask you why not via install it via USB (Network or USB flash stick) or from a microSD card (1GB starts at 16 Euro, 2GB at 46 Euro), why via GPRS? Big flash on a PCB is quite expensive, why not live with having libs, programms and data on the micro-SD? I miss more the chance to use a second micor-SD, or more RAM instead of worry that the 64MB flash storage could be to small. Nokias 770 has 128 MB flash but only 64 RAM - when I could choose I would take a Neo with 32 MB flash when it would have 256 MB RAM ;) Ok Sean said that the mikro-SD data speed is not so fast, so I'll be happy to have 64MB flash... I pleased Sean to make selfmade RAM and Flash upgrade possible - e.g. with an additional signal line but no feedback. Also I fear a discussion about more Flash or RAM with the v1 is a little bit late, or Sean? What would rise the cost for the device with more RAM or Flash? Ok, you are right, that it makes sence to think about which version of python and which libs will be used for the default software - but some feedback form the FIC OpenMoko team could bring more clearness to this point. My point was just to stress, that it isn't realy neccessary that all fits into the flash. Happy hacking, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: IMHO more a viewer problem and not a display problem one ; ) - better pdf and webbrower Re: Idea for one of the next Neos: Projecting the display via LEDs
Robert Michel wrote: Salve Uwe! On Sun, 21 Jan 2007, Uwe Koch wrote: it's still always the same problem: Mobile phones' displays are to small (size or resolution) to view documents, ebooks, whatever - but they are small to carry with. On the other hand PDAs are to large to carry with but are a better solution for ebooks or reading texts - but is it large enough? Yes it is - I've read complete books on my Palm 160x160. I read a lot of books on my Treo, which has a smaller screen than an old school Palm. However, it's resolution is higher at 320x320. 99% of the books are from the Baen free library (www.baen.com/library) or the Baen webscription service. Here are the advantages: 1) you always have a book on you when you have 10 minutes to kill 2) built in backlight means you don't need a light on or one of those awkward booklights to read. Great for reading in bed without disturbing the wife. 3) comfortable to read with one hand. In a normal book you hold the book with one hand and turn pages with the other. This makes it much more comfortable when reading in bed or when you're reading on the bus and you don't get a seat. The cons are: 1) you have to either plug in or make sure you have a full battery before you start reading 2) hard to read in sunlight The size is not a problem. The limited width of the device is actually an advantage in speed-reading: less eye movement. Eye strain is also not a problem, for me. Properly formatted books are crucial: PDF's suck horribly; even HTML usually doesn't work too well. Mobipocket format works great. Bryan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
Hello Milan, I know what you mean. And honestly, who really knows what the true intentions of OpenMoko are. But what I do know, is that regardless of what they do, I will end up with a phone that I can hack till my hearts content. And I am not limited to a particular carrier, and apart from the GPS module the entire platform is open. Not even the iPhone can claim this. To be graphic: OpenMoko is like a slave-driver giving her slaves the keys to unlock their shackles and telling them they can leave whenever they want, then asking them to work overtime for the next two weeks. The good thing here is that we are not slaves, and we can fork whenever we want. But at this point, this is all I need to know about OpenMoko. Maybe one day, OpenMoko will turn evil. But guess what, we will still have open phones they will still be modifiable in whatever ways we see fit. Sure they might take a few community-sponsored ideas and might even claim them as their own (and sell new closed phones), but I never wanted to get monetary compensation for this. I just wanted a phone that I could hack on and (as corny as this sounds) to share these hacks with my peers and gain their respect. Personally, OpenMoko is not going to turn evil. And the community willing they will continue to produce open phones for many years to come. They benefit from having a community that will push their warez to the limit because so long as we are happy hacking, we are the most likely candidates to get new ones as they become available. We benefit because we get cool phones, that are actually cool. I hope this sort of answers your concerns. PS. I do not work for OpenMoko, I just believe they got a good product on the way. And its about time, someone did this. hopefully I will never have to buy another carrier-bound mobile phone/pda/computer/anything. Say no to Vista. On 1/22/07, Milan Votava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 05:35 22.1.2007, you wrote: On 1/22/07 4:58 AM, Milan Votava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice to know if Sean's aim is 1. to satisfy his and our need for open source toys like Neo or 2. to earn money like almost everybody on this planet while exploiting geeks like us to achieve his goal :-) I bet the second will prove as true... I wasn't going to respond to this email, but I find your response quite arrogant and feel I need correct you. Never has this project been about exploiting people. If you ready _any_ of our documents you will find that we're trying to create an open ecosystem for the mobile industry. Sure I hope this will make us money. Otherwise I would have neither A) the credit or B) the financial resources to go on pursuing my dreams. -Sean (sorry for my English) Don't get me wrong. I like (and share) your idea and I will try to be among the first wave of people who will buy the device (if I will be allowed after my post ;-) ) and start to develop for it. The only problem I have as a developer with the project is it's real identity. Today in the time of a 'new' internet economy is becoming very common to use communities as a part of a business plan and camouflage this step as another open source geeky projects (like the ones hosted on sourceforge etc). While I have no problem to invest my energy and free time to work on these enthusiastic projects I will be(maybe as a only one in this group) more careful to do the same for the project where my position will be reduced to become a member of an external workforce (from the perspective of you or the company behind it) who is not even on a payroll. I don't see anything arrogant on my post and I consider my question as a legitimate one in the context of a really open community. Milan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is python built-in
Salve! 2007/1/22, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Salve Mikko! On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Mikko J Rauhala wrote: On ma, 2007-01-22 at 14:10 +0100, Robert Michel wrote: On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Tomasz Zielinski wrote: I seriously doubt it. I found python RPM and it has about 10 MB *compressed*. All default Neo1973 software (including kernel and libs) must fit in 64MB flash storage... Why? it have a mountable microSD card (1,2, maybe 4 and more GB)- the 128MB RAM is the counting limitation, not the flash ;) _Default_ software. The default stuff must fit in without a microSD. Oh I see much power with 64MB flash and I do expect a skripting language like python fit on the flash. But not every lib must be inside the flash, right? Right! Making pygtk available as _default_ software would increase GUI based apps developped for it. I'll probably install python too, via BT-PAN or GPRS, but I don't expect it to be in there by default. Can I ask you why not via install it via USB (Network or USB flash stick) or from a microSD card (1GB starts at 16 Euro, 2GB at 46 Euro), why via GPRS? Because I expect that there will be a central packages repository, so the packages manager would try to download them from there. Of course, I could distribute python libs in a microSD, but I love apt-get! Perhaps a local repository in a microSD? Something like adding Debian CD to sources-list?? -- J. Manrique López de la Fuente http://www.jsmanrique.net msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is python built-in
On ma, 2007-01-22 at 15:07 +0100, Robert Michel wrote: Salve Mikko! _Default_ software. The default stuff must fit in without a microSD. Oh I see much power with 64MB flash and I do expect a skripting language like python fit on the flash. But not every lib must be inside the flash, right? It's may possible to fit it in depending on other software, sure, and certainly not everything has to be on the on-board flash, just everything in the default install. Also, my particular piece of software I was thinking of currently depends on pygnome as well and not merely Python. :] I'll probably install python too, via BT-PAN or GPRS, but I don't expect it to be in there by default. Can I ask you why not via install it via USB (Network or USB flash stick) or from a microSD card (1GB starts at 16 Euro, 2GB at 46 Euro), why via GPRS? The method is of no consequence really, I merely mentioned it on the side because Jose said earlier Considering that Neo1973 doesn't have WiFi, I can't image clients downloading python-runtime by apt using GPRS ;-) (though I'm likely not a client he was talking about :). (Yes, we have affordable flat rate here.) USB-net, perhaps, if the default install will make USB-net easy. I have no motivation to tune USB networking. (With BT I will, however, tinker if FIC doesn't provide ready-made PAN support or somebody else doesn't beat me to it.) Big flash on a PCB is quite expensive, why not live with having libs, programms and data on the micro-SD? I don't see who was arguing against having libs, programs and data on the micro-SD. Nokias 770 has 128 MB flash but only 64 RAM - when I could choose I would take a Neo with 32 MB flash when it would have 256 MB RAM ;) Mmh, 64 MB RAM does seem a bit limiting, though it's an old generation already. (Ah well, I'm also not going for Nokia because of their love-hate-openness thing.) -- Mikko J Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Helsinki ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Is python built-in
Robert Michel writes: I seriously doubt it. I found python RPM and it has about 10 MB *compressed*. All default Neo1973 software (including kernel and libs) must fit in 64MB flash storage... Why? it have a mountable microSD card (1,2, maybe 4 and more GB)- the 128MB RAM is the counting limitation, not the flash ;) Only if the 2B flash card comes pre-installed. He was specifically talking about default software. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
As I fear - no. Re: io ports besides usb audio?
Salve Soeren! On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: will the neo have some other i/o ports forwarded to the outside besides the usb port and audio jack? AFAIK unhappyly not. i'd be intersted if there is one to do spi with a microcontroller. if not, would there be one iside the case that may be used? are there some schematics for the circuit board yet? No public schematics yet - from early beginning I tried to motivate Sean and his team to make this device hardware hackable as well, to solder some sensors and other stuff ourself to the phone. But I don't now if I was succsessfull with this (for the v1). why? - i'm controlling my home via irda or 433mhz radio - music, mp3 player, lights, everything. (no, not x10 -- completely homebrew + canbus) soldering a 433mhz remote into the case would be great. no, the bluetooth is no alternative in this case, since i'd have to write a bluetooth-stack for the atmega32-16 that controls it. You are right, build in 433mhz tranceiver would be funny maby in later Neo1973 versions? But you could use a device like a NSLU2 with a bluetooth adapter and then link the IO on the NSLU2 via Bluetooth to your Neo1973 (using the flexibility of Linux) So you will not have to write a bluetooth-stack for your atmega, nor by expensive BlueTooth IC working with this controller. See what all is addable to the NSLU2: http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/HowTo/AddAThirtyFourPinUniversalConnector I hope you (and other hardware hackers) are not to much disapointed and do use OpenMoko and Neo1973 for cool and interesting projects and hacks. As more is be done, as more is populare to do with OpenMoko Neo1973 as more it is likly that FIC will support more connectors and build in things in the later generations of the Neo1973. Greetings, rob PS: Also a simple audio in would be great... but I fear the Neo v1 woun't have it either. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sean, do you need a table in Brussel for the FOSDEM 2007? ; ) Re: Neo1973 device description and picture for xoo.
Robert Michel wrote: But Sean, when you are at the FOSDEM, do you need a table in BXL? Look: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/booths Many Open... there, but OpenMoko is still missing. OpenEmbedded has a booth on which almost everything OpenMoko is absolutely on-topic and very welcome. If everything goes as planned, I'll hang around there as well, btw. Regards, :M: -- Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Some IO hack ideas...Re: As I fear - no. Re: io ports besides usb audio?
Salve soeren! [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb am Montag, den 22. Januar 2007 um 17:23h: On Mon, Jan 22, 2007 at 05:00:52PM +0100, Robert Michel wrote: I hope you (and other hardware hackers) are not to much disapointed and do use OpenMoko and Neo1973 for cool and interesting projects and hacks. As more is be done, as more is populare to do with OpenMoko Neo1973 as more it is likly that FIC will support more connectors and build in things in the later generations of the Neo1973. Not at all -- i'll find some... if it all fails, i'll try bitbanging via the one that are used micro-sd slot ;) Hey this sounds good :))) Quick ideas: (kiddingSean and all official Neo1973 developer please stop reading here - this ideas should give you no reason to do not use the last days untill shipping to add some smart solderpoints on the circuit board that everyone who will use the SPI, uart I2C or audio-in could hack it and spend some additional jacks to the Neo1973) The external USB could be catched internaly, the SIM slot could be multiplexed - send a high on one SIM conector and you could use a small chip to switch this port: In some of earlier threads are already some ideas around switching and multiplexing SDIO of the mikroSD and SIM slot http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/60.html Swithing the SIM port: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/000131.html Happy hacking ;) rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: io ports besides usb audio?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: why? - i'm controlling my home via irda or 433mhz radio - music, mp3 player, lights, everything. (no, not x10 -- completely homebrew + canbus) soldering a 433mhz remote into the case would be great. Now that's actually a really cool idea. Getting a 433/866 MHz transceiver into the next phone would enable the Neo to be a perfect home automation control device. I like it! Regards, :M: -- Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: io ports besides usb audio?
On Mon, Jan 22, 2007 at 05:45:32PM +0100, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: Now that's actually a really cool idea. Getting a 433/866 MHz transceiver into the next phone would enable the Neo to be a perfect home automation control device. I like it! That plus voice recognition software and you can do Computer, lights on!. But i'm not sure if that consumes too much of the battery power... we'll see ;) - Soeren signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Yes, let as walk into on room and you'll hanging out with us all, with talking a bit about OpenMoko/Neo1973 :)))) - Re: Sean, do you need a table in Brussel for the FOSDEM 2007? ; ) Re: Neo1973 devi
Salve Sean! Sean Moss-Pultz schrieb am Dienstag, den 23. Januar 2007 um 00:41h: On 1/22/07 9:07 PM, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But Sean, when you are at the FOSDEM, do you need a table in BXL? Look: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/booths Many Open... there, but OpenMoko is still missing. When it belongs to a missing table, I could bring one with me from Aachen. I'm probably just going to be walking around and hanging out with you all. But _really_ thanks for the offer! It mustn't be a perfect presentation with nice slides like in Amsterdam - at the FOSDEM you will be able to show us OpenMoko/Neo1973 live. :) Hey you've said we are comming so when you are comming to hanging out and have some fun someone else could tell some storries of your project and show what it is possible now - and talk with us what'll be possible in the futur. Because of A-GPS I nearly can't wait to walking around with a Neo1973 - which api will be usable to script some funny things with it? But beside walking around and hanging out with us (It seems the offerd beers have already made you weary and to relaxed), beleave me - at last when you be asked for the third (or 1 hundred times) in BXL - Why does it have no Wifi? or some other things that nearly everybody is interested in you will whish to go into one room with us and answer this only once for all. See: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/media/video and think that your words/presentation would be accesible for everybody - aren't you proud to show the fist Neo1973 running? Maybe with the help of freeNX very big on a wall with a beamer? Hey guys, now you see the snafu - you promised Sean the beers to early - now he fears to get drunk hardly on Friday so he will not promisee to give a presentation the days after :(( My offered cake (I alread thought to make it in the style of a Neo1973) haven't work Maby this helps: Can somebody from sweden bring a bottle like on page 29 http://www.openmoko.com/files/OpenMoko_Amsterdam.pdf to the FOSDEM to motivate Seam to give a speach¹? @Sean Speach, speach, speach... :))) rob ¹other word for presentation ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Need for a clusterd megaphone via Bluetooth....
Salve! I need some help - it is realy a pitty that Sean will not speach on a stage at the FOSDEM 2007 I'm probably just going to be walking around and hanging out with you all. http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001891.html But when he'll bring some or many Neo1973 with him, a software solution could help that everyone will hear his smaller and bigger stories about OpenMoko and the Neo1973: Because the Neo1973 will have - Bluetooth free radio connections, yeahaa!! - a mic - two 1 watt loud speaker - AGPS for getting the accurate time Someone could programm a clusterd megaphone - the Neo1973 at Seans neck will be the master broadcater - his mic will be on and the stream will be broadcasted via Bluetooth. All others Neo1973 will be relays and loudspeaker - the AGPS will help to syncronice the audio output Ok maybe with 1 ore more relays the delay will become to long - than the will be the audio output inside a room (with the help of AGPS) allows only direct receiving from Seans Neo. 24 Neo1973 would gave 24x2x1Watt=48 Watt cluster blaster. For the party in the night - we could syncronice our Neo1973 to play the same simultanious (on miliseconds accurate - thanks to AGPS) and to make some fun - 12 of us could be the group for right - the 12 others be the left - or ths cluster blaster would automaticaly organise the best sectioning. For corner sectioning lll l rrr rrr lll rr lll If someone from the upper right goes to the upper left his audio output would swith form r to l automaticaly. So no need to rent a PA for a party anymore, when enough people with OpenMoko/Neo1973 are invited :) Cheers, rob PS: Sean - even without a speach or Neo1973s it would be a plesure to meet you in BXL - no fear that I/we would expect to much - it is nice that you will come :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Need for a clusterd megaphone via Bluetooth....
Robert Michel wrote: I need some help - it is realy a pitty that Sean will not speach on a stage at the FOSDEM 2007 Are you sure? :) :M: -- Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sean interview
On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Dave Crossland wrote: On 22/01/07, Alessandro Iurlano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very nice! Did I get it wrong or he is talking about Big Companies or government in Italy (my country)? Sean, can you confirm? I am really curious if there is something going on in my country that I could partecipate to! Sean says that the Italian Forest Fires people are interested in using it to help deal with forest fires. And some of you scoffed at my idea of a phone hardened for tough environments... :-) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Need for a clusterd megaphone via Bluetooth....
Salve Michael! On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote: Robert Michel wrote: I need some help - it is realy a pitty that Sean will not speach on a stage at the FOSDEM 2007 Are you sure? :) Oh it was such a good opener to my idea of a clusterd megaphone - Seans talk would transmitted to every Neo1973 at the FOSDEM... at this moment is Mc'S song Connected running in my radio Here we go - If you make sure you're connected Wasn't the idea funny to broadcast all his talks? ;) Okok I missed to write a seems It seems that Sean will not speach - I was try to kidding him a little bit and would realy like to listen to him - and I think all others here as well. Or are you (or someone else) going to give a presentation with Sean? C'one the best time for a presentation about OpenMoko/Neo1973 is when it just be published. Sean: I'm probably just going to be walking around and hanging out with you all. Ahhh Have I'm be the fool and Sean was kidding me? His answer was only about the table-offer. I will be patient and will see if OpenMoko will find a way to be on this list: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/schedule/days :) Cheers, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Need for a clusterd megaphone via Bluetooth....
Cheers Robert, I will be patient and will see if OpenMoko will find a way to be on this list: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/schedule/days I recommend watching this instead: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/schedule/devroom/embedded Regards, :M: -- Michael 'Mickey' Lauer | IT-Freelancer | http://www.vanille-media.de ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
unpowered usb host idea (hack)
I realize that the reason the usb host port is unpowered is because the phone runs at something like 3.6 volt, and powered usb requires 5 volt, which would add the need for dc-dc converters. So, I've got an idea... What about adding a power tap next to the usb port, running at the phones native voltage? This should only be a matter of adding an additional connector (and possibly protection circuitry). Then, an adapter cable can be manufacured seperately that has a usb mini-A and power tap connector on one end, and a full-sized usb-A on the other, with the dc-dc circuit inbetween? This way, it leaves the potential for powered external devices without complicating the phones circuitry. Of course I realize that can't be included in the first production run, but possibly an idea for the followon product. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Gaming oportunities
Thanks for getting it to the wiki, I've been trying to finish it for a couple of hours this morning, but there is this work thing that keeps me occupied all the time. =) I'll try to flesh out my idea some more and write a couple of paragraphs on it on the wiki. -- kent On 22 jan 2007, at 09.43, Ortwin Regel wrote: I've reorganized the wiki entry and tried to add everything I could find. Feel free to add more! http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Ideas/Games Ortwin On 1/22/07, tony [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kent Karlsson wrote: Hey, What do you guys think about creating a nice lib which makes it easy for games to support different multiplayer modes? Live connection over Bluetooth and/or GPRS (Perhaps mixed). Play by mail over email or sms. It would be awesome if we could switch between the modes as well for games where it makes sense. I realize that it won't be hard for any game to add the support, but keeping friends list and creating everything on a per-game basis is just plain unnecessary. -- kent Now *that's* an interesting idea: a messaging layer that defaults to bluetooth, but can use either GPRS (for more-or-less real-time games) or SMS (for non-real-time games, like chess). In the instance of chess, it'd be like playing by mail, only faster. You wouldn't rely on GPRS, so your phone isn't tied up. That would limit the number of moves you get for free for some people (my plan doesn't have unlimited SMS, for instance), but it'd still be nice. Also, using SMS, the message has a certain amount of assurance it will arrive. I think this sort of framework would be invaluable, especially if you have, as you mention, a friends list. Automate the sharing of high scores amount your group, that sort of thing. I like it. I like it a lot. - Tony ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OpenMoko development environment (was: Re: Built in PIM app source?)
On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 22:15 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 20 Jan 2007, Sencer wrote: I would also like to see some type of tutorial for a 'hello world' on the neo, or if there's an emulator available right now, it'd be nice to play with. This should get you started: http://www.gtk.org/tutorial/ I've started a page on the wiki to gather information of this sort. Please add to it, and if anyone can think of a better way to organize this info please have at it: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/QuestionsAndAnswers Michael Cool Michael, I also added some of this info on the software page under development tools section. There is much that could be documented in advance of the software/hardware release on feb 11. Great! Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Register article
On Wed, 2007-01-17 at 21:17 +0100, slubman wrote: Another article about OpenMoko on a tech site. This one talk about the OpenMoko interface compared to iPhone one. The link : http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/openmoko-smartphone-did-they-have-a-time-machine-or-what-229243.php FYI, I added this to the press section (which is a great thing to do rather than post here as these are getting numerous)... http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/PressCoverage Jon -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 22/01/07, Andreas Kostyrka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 01:38]: I actually become aware of the FS movement via the GNU moniker, so it worked on me. For many years I was only aware of the OS movement (through knowing about Linux). Guess you wasn't to much interested in the license of the software you use? Well, I'm certainly a freak for checking the license of anything new first. *g* Yes, and the GNU GPL's introduction text is a very well written introduction to the GNU project. However, there are many people who have heard of Linux and open source and have never read any software licenses. Proprietary EULAs are so full of legal language non-sense, the idea that a software license could be interesting is very strange :-) The only way that people hear about GNU is by other people talking about it. This is why it is important that the operating system we love, which was started by the GNU project, makes -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
(sorry for the premature post) On 22/01/07, Andreas Kostyrka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 01:38]: I actually become aware of the FS movement via the GNU moniker, so it worked on me. For many years I was only aware of the OS movement (through knowing about Linux). Guess you wasn't to much interested in the license of the software you use? Well, I'm certainly a freak for checking the license of anything new first. *g* Yes, and the GNU GPL's introduction text is a very well written introduction to the GNU project. However, there are many people who have heard of Linux and open source and have never read any software licenses. Proprietary EULAs are so full of legal language non-sense, the idea that a software license could be interesting is very strange :-) The only way that people hear about GNU is by other people talking about it. This is why it is important that the operating system we love, which was started in the GNU project, says that it is a variant of the GNU system plus the Linux kernel. This is well explained in the essay at http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: unpowered usb host idea (hack)
Salve Derek! nice idea :) On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Derek Pressnall wrote: I realize that the reason the usb host port is unpowered is because the phone runs at something like 3.6 volt, and powered usb requires 5 volt, which would add the need for dc-dc converters. So, I've got an idea... and another, someone could play with usb flash-memory and lower the power suply of this usb device down to 3.6 volt. I could imagine, that it will still work. What about adding a power tap next to the usb port, running at the phones native voltage? So under the battery cover we could place a small switch to give 3.6 volt to the usb connector - maybe together with a small red led to warn (when warning is neccessary). Next hack - using a cheap usb flash-memory and spend this memory a mini USB connector fit into Neo1973. This should only be a matter of adding an additional connector (and possibly protection circuitry). Then, an adapter cable can be manufacured seperately that has a usb mini-A and power tap connector on one end, and a full-sized usb-A on the other, with the dc-dc circuit inbetween? This way, it leaves the potential for powered external devices without complicating the phones circuitry. Of course I realize that can't be included in the first production run, but possibly an idea for the followon product. But you could influence some hardware hackers, can't waiting untill Neo1973 v.2 ;) Happy hacking, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
how to get the video Re: Sean interview
Salve Alexander! On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Alexander McLeay wrote: On 1/22/07, Tomasz Zielinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg Nothing new, but still worth watch :-) Is it available in a downloadable format for people who can't view Flash movies? (I'm running Linux on a PPC machine here, so nothing from Adobe...) hmm I found this http://www.arrakis.es/~rggi3/youtube-dl/ I can't garanty if this will harm your system: curl -RO http://www.arrakis.es/~rggi3/youtube-dl/youtube-dl chmod +ux youtube-dl apt-get install python2.4 vi youtube-de change line 1 into python2.4 comment out line 104-106 - some problem with title converting ./youtube-dl http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg vlc jRvtAAXTIlg.flv The big qestion is - where is the original source of this video? Can we get it from there without flash? Thanks to Tomasz - I didn't now this video and it worth looking it :))) Greetings rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
There are already (I assume) at least two very powerful scripting languages on the OpenMoko. The first is sh in whatever variant they decide to include. I've used sh to write CGI scripts on a couple of deeply embedded web servers; you'd be surprised how much can be done with just boa+busybox. The other is javascript, which I assume will be included with the web browser. Javascript is a very powerful modern scripting language (it has closures and other cool stuff that python is only now getting). Javascript gets lots of bad press because the APIs that browsers provide are often awful and incompatible, but the core Javascript language is very nice. Since a javascript interpreter is going to be provided as part of the stock build, perhaps it would be nice to allow it to be used outside of its browser sandbox? The power of Perl Python lies not in the language itself; the power is the huge standard libraries as well as external libraries available. On an embedded platform, these cannot be necessarily counted on. Bryan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 22/01/07, Marcel de Jong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/21/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If more people are aware of why freedom and community matter, then they will buy more products that support freedom and community, like more Neos. How does adding three more letters and a / increase people's knowledge on free and open software? I like to be accurate and know what I am talking about, and I like others to be too :-) If you name the system Linux, you suggest a version of the system's origin, history, and purpose that is not true. If you call it GNU/Linux, you present a more accurate idea. This is explained in depth at http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html Joe Schmoe goes into a store to buy a new phone. He sees a large selection of phones in the store. He's in the market of a smartphone, so he choses the department of smartphones. And then goes looking at the specs and the software bundled with the phone. He sees that he can choose between phones that run Microsoft Windows Mobile, Symbian, PalmOS, Nokia proprietary OS, Sony/Ericsson proprietary OS, and GNU/Linux. Then looks at the software. Okay, Windows has a nice layout, and has some really nice apps. PalmOS' UI is nicely integrated, all apps look decent, though the input system is something to get used to. Symbian looks dated and both S/E's as well as Nokia's system look clunky. The GNU/Linux package looks nice too, and look this one even has GPS built-in, and has all accessories added in the bundle for merely $350! That looks like a great system. I'll take it. Joe is judging these phones on purely practical values. The Free Software concept is that there are things more important than practical values - although it does not say that pratical values are unimportant, they clearly are very important. What is more important than practical values? Community and freedom. Joe Schmoe doesn't care whether it's GNU/Linux or 'just' Linux. It's not as if he's going to Google GNU/Linux while he's in the store to find out the core-principles of the software. It is exactely as if he is going to do that :-) RenaissanceMan has posted in this thread that he has done just that. What he does care about is that It Just Works(tm). If he has never had a smartphone before, he is likely to only care for practical values like if it just works. But if he has owned a smartphone before, he will likely be frustrated with the restrictions that it has imposed on him, because of its proprietary nature. That is why there is such buzz around OpenMoko: At last, a chance to escape proprietary restrictions and get the same freedom and community we are used to with our desktops and laptops :-) If he takes it out of the box, and charges the unit does the phone work, can he call his buddies to tell about his new acquisition, can he text his mates, can he use the calendar? It should just work, and easily without having to hack the system. (this should especially hold true for the 'consumer phone' that was announced in Openmoko's press release) Calling the system GNU/Linux instead of Linux will not effect this, at all. Sure, credit where credit is due, and I don't see any problem with having the manual refer to GNU/Linux (but I also have no qualms if it doesn't). It would be unfair if it didn't. I like to be fair. But I think it's a bit farfetched to attribute 3 letters and a / to all-customer awareness of the principles behind it. For many years the idea of a free software operating system was far fetched. These principles are quite potent, I'd say :-) If someone buys the phone merely on the grounds that it runs Linux, chances are he or she is already aware of the history and ideals behind GNU and Linux. I disagree. The ideas behind the GNU system and the Linux kernel are very different, and many GNU/Linux users believe the system was started in 1991, by a student, for fun. This is sustained by calling the system Linux instead of GNU/Linux. Let's not get lost in this bottomless pit of misconceptions and well-intended suggestions. Yes, by remaining polite and rational :-) And let's focus our efforts on making this phone a device which Just Works! :) I have no doubt about that :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: how to get the video Re: Sean interview
On 22/01/07, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it available in a downloadable format for people who can't view Flash movies? (I'm running Linux on a PPC machine here, so nothing from Adobe...) hmm I found this http://www.arrakis.es/~rggi3/youtube-dl/ www.keepvid.com does what this does :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
I like to be accurate and know what I am talking about, and I like others to be too :-) It simply never ends, does it? Feel entirely free to call it GNU/Linux, Bob/Linux, Jim/Linux or whatever you like, okay. But _please_ stop proselytizing. Have you ever noticed how folks with a zealot-like position assume, that when you disagree with them, that it represents some failure of adequate (or maybe adequately _repeated_) explanation on their part...? I get it, okay? I disagree. Telling me that GNU is a principal developer doesn't make it so and opinions clearly vary here. So, why don't you let those of use who choose to use a more commonly accepted, no less accurate, and more generally understood name simply do so? I can just see some poor fellow asking a sales-droid what the actual difference is between Linux (I've _heard_ of _that_!) and _GNU_/Linux. So, it's something _different_ than Linux? Yes, it's more conducive to personal freedom and encourages community better. Does it make the phone _do_ anything different? Other than encouraging freedom, no. Um, mm-kay... I realy just wanted a cell phone... Maybe I should get a Microsoft one instead; I've _heard_ of that. I don't what what this GNU stuff is, but I never heard of it, so I don't know whether it really works or not... Are you sure you don't have one that just runs _Linux_...? Sorry, nope. Ya _fascist._ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Idea for one of the next Neos: Projecting the display via LEDs
Okay, I will take my statement back, it is indeed possible to bend light, but fitting a collapsed star into the Neo1973 will be kinda hard :D. But, well, theoretically, if there existed a material where the refraction index could somehow be controlled, that would be a possibility. I guess this is something we will have to wait for nano technology to bring us. - Sorry for the private mail Nigel, I forgot to reply to the list On Monday 22 January 2007 12:43, Nigel wrote: Just for Interest: Two ways to bend light: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refraction On 1/22/07, Ulrik Rasmussen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 21 January 2007 18:46, Wil Chung wrote: Dr. H., I agree that it needs a beam scanner, on first though, but does it have to be mechanical? I know you can direct radio waves with something like a phase array, might not light be directed with a phase array? I don't know, as it's just a guess since they're both EM. I don't think it is possible to bend light, so you'll probably need some sort of mechanical device for it. However, I stumbled on this some times ago, which seems to fullfill the needs: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/5359724.stm It's basically a red and blue laser diode, aimed at a very tiny vibrating mirror. The problem is, as the article says, that they can't use green diodes, because these aren't small enough. I don't know the technical details for this obstacle though. Red and blue should be enough for text though, at least you will be able to render red, purple and blue. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo1973 device description and picture for xoo.
Hello. On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 19:17, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: On 1/22/07 5:56 PM, Stefan Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 12:22, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Wow somebody buy this guy a beer! Best place would be the beer event of fosdem. Friday evening. ;) Deal. Drinks will be on me! Heh. At least one beer be on me as thanks for having the vision and starting this big project. See you in Brussel. regards Stefan Schmidt signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
David, if you're not interested in the topic take note of the subject in your inbox and stop reading the thread. Don't troll the thread with inflammatory arguments and personal attacks. You may have made up your mind but there are clearly other people who would like to continue the discussion, since they're asking questions. Crossland was doing just that, answering someone's question. It's okay for you to disagree, but this doesn't give you the right to keep browbeating people into stopping the discussion. Renaissance Man On 22 Jan 2007, at 7:29 pm, David Schlesinger wrote: I like to be accurate and know what I am talking about, and I like others to be too :-) It simply never ends, does it? Feel entirely free to call it GNU/Linux, Bob/Linux, Jim/Linux or whatever you like, okay. But _please_ stop proselytizing. Have you ever noticed how folks with a zealot-like position assume, that when you disagree with them, that it represents some failure of adequate (or maybe adequately _repeated_) explanation on their part...? I get it, okay? I disagree. Telling me that GNU is a principal developer doesn't make it so and opinions clearly vary here. So, why don't you let those of use who choose to use a more commonly accepted, no less accurate, and more generally understood name simply do so? I can just see some poor fellow asking a sales-droid what the actual difference is between Linux (I've _heard_ of _that_!) and _GNU_/Linux. So, it's something _different_ than Linux? Yes, it's more conducive to personal freedom and encourages community better. Does it make the phone _do_ anything different? Other than encouraging freedom, no. Um, mm-kay... I realy just wanted a cell phone... Maybe I should get a Microsoft one instead; I've _heard_ of that. I don't what what this GNU stuff is, but I never heard of it, so I don't know whether it really works or not... Are you sure you don't have one that just runs _Linux_...? Sorry, nope. Ya _fascist._ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
At 20:21 22.1.2007, Dave Crossland wrote: On 22/01/07, Gervais Mulongoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure they might take a few community-sponsored ideas and might even claim them as their own (and sell new closed phones), If you write free software for the OpenMoko platform and use a good copyleft license like the GNU GPL, you can be sure that no one will ever distribute proprietary versions of it. -- Regards, Dave It's not about stealing ideas or work from a community. It's about using a community to do the job you normally have to pay for. How many units they are going to sell if there is only standard PIM software suite available? Zero. If someone is going to increase the value of the device and making it competitive are developers who will make applications for the platform. You can hire these developers, to have them in house - in both cases you have to pay them OR you can use guys like us to do the job in our free time and just use and control our addiction to hack whatever has a cpu ram. I think we are going to see this 'business model' more and more in coming years since a few companies (like http://www.slimdevices.com/) has made it's fortune from being bought by other old fashion companies (like logitech) after a community add a substantial value to the original subpar product or idea... It's time now to get something back. It would be nice for a community developer to get a share of the company each time he/she makes a new 'selling' application :-) Milan ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
I just joined the mailing list but if the point of this thread is about whether the manual/box/website for openmoko should refer to it using Linux or GNU/Linux then I am 100% whole heartedly behind GNU/Linux.. If there were the possibility of replacing the kernel with say a cut down bsd kernel (just an example) but keeping all the GNU tools then you obviously couldn't say it was running linux which a lot of people would still say but you could say it was running a gnu based OS.. GNU is the operating system which just happens to use a linux kernel.. it could use any other kernel.. even HURD :). Sorry for the rant! Edit: Actually, I think it would be far better just to call it mokOS or something.. if you call it linux or gnu/linux is equally confusing to some people.. what, so it runs ubuntu? (redhat, suse, slackware - whichever one the person has heard of) Alan On 1/22/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 22/01/07, Marcel de Jong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/21/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If more people are aware of why freedom and community matter, then they will buy more products that support freedom and community, like more Neos. How does adding three more letters and a / increase people's knowledge on free and open software? I like to be accurate and know what I am talking about, and I like others to be too :-) If you name the system Linux, you suggest a version of the system's origin, history, and purpose that is not true. If you call it GNU/Linux, you present a more accurate idea. This is explained in depth at http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html Joe Schmoe goes into a store to buy a new phone. He sees a large selection of phones in the store. He's in the market of a smartphone, so he choses the department of smartphones. And then goes looking at the specs and the software bundled with the phone. He sees that he can choose between phones that run Microsoft Windows Mobile, Symbian, PalmOS, Nokia proprietary OS, Sony/Ericsson proprietary OS, and GNU/Linux. Then looks at the software. Okay, Windows has a nice layout, and has some really nice apps. PalmOS' UI is nicely integrated, all apps look decent, though the input system is something to get used to. Symbian looks dated and both S/E's as well as Nokia's system look clunky. The GNU/Linux package looks nice too, and look this one even has GPS built-in, and has all accessories added in the bundle for merely $350! That looks like a great system. I'll take it. Joe is judging these phones on purely practical values. The Free Software concept is that there are things more important than practical values - although it does not say that pratical values are unimportant, they clearly are very important. What is more important than practical values? Community and freedom. Joe Schmoe doesn't care whether it's GNU/Linux or 'just' Linux. It's not as if he's going to Google GNU/Linux while he's in the store to find out the core-principles of the software. It is exactely as if he is going to do that :-) RenaissanceMan has posted in this thread that he has done just that. What he does care about is that It Just Works(tm). If he has never had a smartphone before, he is likely to only care for practical values like if it just works. But if he has owned a smartphone before, he will likely be frustrated with the restrictions that it has imposed on him, because of its proprietary nature. That is why there is such buzz around OpenMoko: At last, a chance to escape proprietary restrictions and get the same freedom and community we are used to with our desktops and laptops :-) If he takes it out of the box, and charges the unit does the phone work, can he call his buddies to tell about his new acquisition, can he text his mates, can he use the calendar? It should just work, and easily without having to hack the system. (this should especially hold true for the 'consumer phone' that was announced in Openmoko's press release) Calling the system GNU/Linux instead of Linux will not effect this, at all. Sure, credit where credit is due, and I don't see any problem with having the manual refer to GNU/Linux (but I also have no qualms if it doesn't). It would be unfair if it didn't. I like to be fair. But I think it's a bit farfetched to attribute 3 letters and a / to all-customer awareness of the principles behind it. For many years the idea of a free software operating system was far fetched. These principles are quite potent, I'd say :-) If someone buys the phone merely on the grounds that it runs Linux, chances are he or she is already aware of the history and ideals behind GNU and Linux. I disagree. The ideas behind the GNU system and the Linux kernel are very different, and many GNU/Linux users believe the system was started in 1991, by a student, for fun. This is sustained by calling the system Linux instead of GNU/Linux. Let's not get lost in this bottomless pit of
Re: Free Your Phone
Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Milan Votava writes: It's time now to get something back. It would be nice for a community developer to get a share of the company each time he/she makes a new 'selling' application :-) I've gotten *so* *much* from the free software community already that any piddling contributions I can give in return are only a tiny payback. If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants. -- Isaac Newton As long as FIC and OpenMoko treat the developers with respect, we win. If I contribute code, it is with the hope that OpenMoko-based phones will give us more freedom over our means of communication, and not with an eye for monetary recompense. We are traveling a road built by those who came before. It's not quite right to start asking for toll. - Tony ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
* Derek Pressnall [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 19:40]: Seeing as how there has been interest in including an interpreted language with the default software install (such as Python or Perl, etc.), and the fact that they are too big to fit in the built-in flash, I would like to offer up an alternative. Technically speaking, Python is not that big. A huge non-optimized version in Debian Sarge, with all kinds of optional external stuff installed comes at 23MB. Optimizing Python2.5 so that it fits small devices is not exactly a problem. The question is more, how much space can we spare? Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
tony writes: We are traveling a road built by those who came before. It's not quite right to start asking for toll. Very well said. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: how to get the video Re: Sean interview
On Monday 22 January 2007 20:28, Dave Crossland wrote: On 22/01/07, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it available in a downloadable format for people who can't view Flash movies? (I'm running Linux on a PPC machine here, so nothing from Adobe...) hmm I found this http://www.arrakis.es/~rggi3/youtube-dl/ www.keepvid.com does what this does :-) And in case you're wondering what to use to play a .flv, vlc dvd player will do that. I got it like this: urpmi libdvdcss2 libdvdplay0 wxvlc vlc-plugin-a52 vlc-plugin-ogg vlc-plugin-mad apt-get should be similar, you don't really need all the plugins for the .fla of course. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 22/01/07, MR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just joined the mailing list but if the point of this thread is about whether the manual/box/website for openmoko should refer to it using Linux or GNU/Linux then I am 100% whole heartedly behind GNU/Linux. That's originally what this thead was about, yes. It's not clear which term FIC will adopt for their release at this point. But they did say that they will promote OpenMoko more than anything else as the name for the system, probably for the reasons you cited :-) If there were the possibility of replacing the kernel with say a cut down bsd kernel (just an example) but keeping all the GNU tools There is this possibility: http://www.gnusolaris.org and http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
* Andreas Kostyrka [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 21:30]: * Derek Pressnall [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 19:40]: Seeing as how there has been interest in including an interpreted language with the default software install (such as Python or Perl, etc.), and the fact that they are too big to fit in the built-in flash, I would like to offer up an alternative. Technically speaking, Python is not that big. A huge non-optimized Ok, without optimizing much, just packaging it up a little bit, I've managed to minimize python2.5 (supercomplete set) to less than 10MB. If anyone is interested, I can try to build an even smaller version of python that is useful. I'd second also the idea to make the embedded JavaScript available for scripting, which would be a nice language too. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Monday 22 January 2007 13:28, Andreas Kostyrka wrote: * Derek Pressnall [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 19:40]: Seeing as how there has been interest in including an interpreted language with the default software install (such as Python or Perl, etc.), and the fact that they are too big to fit in the built-in flash, I would like to offer up an alternative. Technically speaking, Python is not that big. The question is more, how much space can we spare? I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking about 6 megs here ), easily embedable, dynamically typed, full-featured, multi-paradigm, and has been in real-world use for many years, has two books, actively maintained, and is very popular in a few niche areas such as games scripting. I'm not offering the suggestion because it is my favorite/pet language, but because I can see that it may be a very good fit in an embedded device. http://www.lua.org http://lua-users.org/wiki/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lua_programming_language ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
* Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 21:37]: That also wouldn't be accurate. The droid, refering to wikipedia-stable, might instead say: So, it's something _different_ than Linux? Well, not really. GNU/Linux is the whole system; Linux is one part of the system, and it is a very important part, but it often gets misunderstood as the whole system. If you refer to the whole system, please call it GNU/Linux. You've got a quite optimistic view when it comes to sales droids ;) Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
Dnia poniedziałek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisał: I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking about 6 megs here ) 6M??? http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=luaaction=search show that it will take much less then 1M -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Monday 22 January 2007 14:03, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: Dnia poniedziałek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisał: I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking about 6 megs here ) 6M??? http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=luaaction=search show that it will take much less then 1M Quite right: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ $ du -shc /usr/bin/lua* /usr/lib/*lua* /usr/include/lua* 200K/usr/bin/lua 148K/usr/bin/luac 180K/usr/lib/liblua.a 132K/usr/lib/liblua.so.5.0 112K/usr/lib/liblualib.a 76K /usr/lib/liblualib.so.5.0 12K /usr/include/lua.h 4.0K/usr/include/lualib.h 864Ktotal ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: how to get the video Re: Sean interview
www.keepvid.com does what this does :-) Or you can use this user script: http://1024k.de/bookmarklets/video-bookmarklets.html with Greasemonkey/Firefox and not have to go through third-party sites :) D. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
[SVHMPC] Engadget's Take on the Google Phone (fwd)
Forwarded from the Silicon Valley Homebrew Mobile Phone Club: -- Forwarded message -- Subject: [SVHMPC] Engadget's Take on the Google Phone The guys over at Engadget are publishing what looks to be a photoshopped picture of the G-Phone. Supposedly, it's a whole-screen type affair that syncs with all your Google services. http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/18/the-google-switch-an-iphone-killer/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On 10:12:00 pm 2007-01-22 Corey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 22 January 2007 14:03, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: Dnia poniedziałek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisał: I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking about 6 megs here ) 6M??? http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=luaaction=search show that it will take much less then 1M Why is this even being discused... you have the ability to add anything to the phone once you get your hands on it... SO any scripting languages one desires can be added. Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he wants. For example I prefer ruby over perl, lua or python and I like using bash scripts for a lot of stuff. So having lua on my system would be more or less pointless as I don't use it myself. IMHO default install should have the really minimal setup needed to run and not one app extra. -- Andraž ruskie Levstik Source Mage GNU/Linux Games grimoire guru Geek/Hacker/Tinker Hacker FAQ: http://www.plethora.net/%7eseebs/faqs/hacker.html Be sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth. Key id = F4C1F89C Key fingerprint = 6FF2 8F20 4C9D DB36 B5B6 F134 884D 72CC F4C1 F89C ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
built-in scripting languages
I would recommend lua, It does look pretty good, I've taken a brief look at it. In fact, I'm in the processing of porting c/invoke over to 2e (c/invoke was originally done for / as part of lua, I think), due to a user's request. A couple of the design considerations for the 2e language that sets it apart from other languages, I feel, are that the core interpreter is kept small so that it can be easily understood / studied (a side project of mine is to write up an interpreter development tutorial), and the language itself has very little syntax to it so it is easy to pick up. This second feature is what can make it useful to embed into other applications -- the syntax sort of disappears. All you have is a few new operators (in addition to the standard algebraic ones), most of which are in other languages such as C. But, I agree that 2e is still too immature to be used in a product this soon (although I don't think there are any outstanding bugs in the core, and the feature set has mostly stabalized). I also like the idea of accessing javascript from outside of a web browser that Bryan mentioned, but this may be less accessable (i.e., learning curve) for some users. On a different (but related) track, I've always wanted to have a web browser that was capable of executing local cgi scripts without the need for client-side http server. This way, you could code up local applets using the same tools for developing web applications, yet they would run entirely on your local device. So your application launch script would be: /usr/bin/web-browser http:///usr/local/myapp/index.html --local-cgi=/usr/local/myapp/cgi ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
* Andra?? 'ruskie' Levstik [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 22:52]: On 10:12:00 pm 2007-01-22 Corey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 22 January 2007 14:03, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: Dnia poniedzia??ek, 22 stycznia 2007 21:45, Corey napisa??: I would recommend lua, it's extremely light-weight ( we're talking about 6 megs here ) 6M??? http://openzaurus.linuxtogo.org/feed-browser/?name=luaaction=search show that it will take much less then 1M Why is this even being discused... you have the ability to add anything to the phone once you get your hands on it... SO any scripting languages one desires can be added. Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he wants. For example I prefer ruby over perl, lua or python and I like using bash scripts for a lot of stuff. So having lua on my system would be more or less pointless as I don't use it myself. IMHO default install should have the really minimal setup needed to run and not one app extra. The problem here is, that it might be useful to have a standard language so that the standard apps can use it for embedded scripting. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Monday 22 January 2007 14:49, Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: Why is this even being discused... you have the ability to add anything to the phone once you get your hands on it... SO any scripting languages one desires can be added. It's true that you have the ability to add anything to the phone. There's another important consideration to remember: OpenMoko is a platform also; an inherent aspect of such a platform is that it always come shipped with X standard api's available for developers. This is why FIC had to select a group of components: gcc, glibc, xorg/kdrive, dbus and gtk, for instance. They may decide that a scripting language would also be a necessary or beneficial feature to include in the base/standard platform -- which, to answer your question, is why this is even being discussed. Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he wants. Choice is good. And so is having a known/standard/default/static api and platform to build from; when I begin writting commercial and/or free software for the OpenMoko, I will design my software according the existing OpenMoko specs, and thereby circumvent the necessity of having to verify that my customers/end users have first installed the necessary scripting language, which would additionally circumvent the probability that your phone will end up with every scripting language known to man. So having lua on my system would be more or less pointless as I don't use it myself. Less than one meg of space would be potentially wasted, true enough in your case. Know that there is probably plenty of other software on the OpenMoko platform that you, yourself, will not be using. Also realize that though _you_ may not be directly using this hypothetical scripting language, it is more than likely that one or more of the standard apps that ship with the phone will be using it, and that other 3rd party software that you may or may not install may also be using it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Jan 22, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he wants. For example I prefer ruby over perl, lua or python and I like using bash scripts for a lot of stuff. So having lua on my system would be more or less pointless as I don't use it myself. I want to agree with this, but I'd like to point out one small problem with it: if you have an app written in one of these languages, you have to install the whole interpreter anyway. And god forbid you should have two apps, both of which are written with the same interpreter, both of which install their own (possibly conflicting) version of it. So in order to agree with this, we nevertheless have to talk about the problem: how do we ensure that if an end-user wants to run an app written in python, and another written in ruby, and a third written in python, that they get exactly two interpreters installed on their Neo, and not three? There are a couple of ways to solve this problem, but the point is that if you just leave it open and let nobody solve it, you may wind up with an unpalatable result for the end-user. And the result for the end-user is important - if the Neo is only useful to geeks, it can't accomplish its stated goals. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
built-in scripting languages
Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik writes: Why is this even being discused... you have the ability to add anything to the phone once you get your hands on it The reason is the same reason the device is being shipped with a given kernel (Linux), a given set of libraries (glibc, gtk), etc. So that when a developer writes an application, it will be known to be able to run on all shipped devices. So, in this light, it may be benificial to included a standard interpreted language that can be a known target. The benefits to having an interpreter included (esp. one that has hooks into the gui and other phone functions) are that more apps will be made available -- there are more hackers that can code up quick scripts than ones that will learn code for a specific gui accessible only from a compiled language. And, the benefit of having a particular interpreter is that when these little apps / scripts are packaged up, you don't have a dependancy nightmare (even though this can be somewhat mitigated by a good package management system, it is only as good as the backend repository, and having self-contained packages are the simplest of all). Also, by settling on a single standard, even if it is one that some developers may have to learn, it makes it more worthwhile to learn a new scripting environment that is widely deployed on your target platform. But for these same reasons, the interpreted language target will need careful consideration, lets we get stuck with something that doesn't adequetly meet most needs. As a secondary issue, if the included interpreter is easily embeddable, then it would be nice to have it as the standard across all the included applets that can use it (i.e., it would be good if the email/sms client, phonebook manager, dialer, etc. were all scriptable). But whatever is decided on (if a single language is picked), a function library should be developed for it that includes access to all the phone specific features (in addition to the gui hooks). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Feel entirely free to call it GNU/Linux, Bob/Linux, Jim/Linux or whatever you like, okay. But _please_ stop proselytizing. Dude, why so prickly? I am not sure why this discussion is making you so agitated..? We are having a discussion, and if you want it to stop, just... stop? :-) I'm not agitated, I simply (as do others) view this whole discussion as off-topic, divisive, unproductive and out-of-place here. Why on _this_ list? Surely, you'd have more impact with your crusade if you went and pestered the Ubuntu folks to make _their_ site say _GNU_/Linux for Human Beings. Not to mention getting the SuSe folks to change their product name to SuSE _GNU_/Linux, and the Red Hat folks to change _theirs_ to Red Hat _GNU_/Linux, and the Mandriva folks, and the Knoppix folks, and the Gentoo folks, etc., etc., etc. There have been literally dozens of messages on these threads, the plurality of 'em from you, and after the first half-dozen or so, there's been nothing new to say. Does the popularity of an error makes it the truth? It sure makes it not worth clogging up an unrelated mailing list with endless messages about it. Is there other misinformation you're going to feel impelled to correct us on? Why don't you invest in finding a better PR agency for the FSF instead? (The fact is that the principal designer of the GNU system hasn't managed to get an actual working _system_ worth talking about put together so far, and no change in sight, in spite of having had since 1983 to work on it. The kernel isn't even GNU development, it was lifted pretty much wholesale from CMU's work on Mach, simply relicensed under GPL and re-christened GNU Mach. So Avie Tevanian and the guys from CMU clearly deserve credit: the putative OS should be the GNU/Mach System in order to give credit to its principal designers...) I would want to suggest that in fact Australians speak English, and to discuss the history and origin of Australia. And it would be just as off-topic if you were discussing the history and origins of Australia on this mailing list as it is for you to be insisting that folks refer free software _your_ way here... Now now, you are sailing close to Godwin's law :-) Apparently, you've never met an actual cell phone customer. Your sales-droid would have lost them a third of the way into the second sentence. Remember: by definition, half of the folks out there are of below average intelligence. They still buy cell phones. You should drop this, and stick to the subject matter of the mailing list: the FIC phone and the OpenMoko platform. As others have pointed out, you're reducing the signal-to-noise ratio with this. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Monday 22 January 2007 15:33, Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: Let me rephrase then. Have it defined as a standard-optional component that can be used. But isn't installed by default. Won't ipkg have dependency resolution etc? Yes, so the dependency aspect will likely be a non-issue; hopefully! So have official/unofficial packages that handle the major scripting languages. That way it's possible to have any scripting language used. Definitely an adequate situation, as far as I can see; and additionally appears to be the model that the OpenMoko folks have perhaps already decided upon, seeing how there is currently no mention of a scripting interpreter in the platform specification. The only potential downfall may be that everyone ends up with quite a few interpreters on their poor little phones... python, ruby, rhino, lua, perl, etc, etc.. ... which of course may just end up happening anyhow, even should there be a standard default scripting environment defined on the platform. At any rate, I sure fear the sort of language war that could develop if a particular scripting language was to be selected! As far as I'm personally concerned though, I'd end up using whatever that choice happened to be, but many others a likely to have a much less relaxed attitude on the matter. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Let's just call it GNU/Linux and be done with it. On 1/22/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Feel entirely free to call it GNU/Linux, Bob/Linux, Jim/Linux or whatever you like, okay. But _please_ stop proselytizing. Dude, why so prickly? I am not sure why this discussion is making you so agitated..? We are having a discussion, and if you want it to stop, just... stop? :-) I'm not agitated, I simply (as do others) view this whole discussion as off-topic, divisive, unproductive and out-of-place here. Why on _this_ list? Surely, you'd have more impact with your crusade if you went and pestered the Ubuntu folks to make _their_ site say _GNU_/Linux for Human Beings. Not to mention getting the SuSe folks to change their product name to SuSE _GNU_/Linux, and the Red Hat folks to change _theirs_ to Red Hat _GNU_/Linux, and the Mandriva folks, and the Knoppix folks, and the Gentoo folks, etc., etc., etc. There have been literally dozens of messages on these threads, the plurality of 'em from you, and after the first half-dozen or so, there's been nothing new to say. Does the popularity of an error makes it the truth? It sure makes it not worth clogging up an unrelated mailing list with endless messages about it. Is there other misinformation you're going to feel impelled to correct us on? Why don't you invest in finding a better PR agency for the FSF instead? (The fact is that the principal designer of the GNU system hasn't managed to get an actual working _system_ worth talking about put together so far, and no change in sight, in spite of having had since 1983 to work on it. The kernel isn't even GNU development, it was lifted pretty much wholesale from CMU's work on Mach, simply relicensed under GPL and re-christened GNU Mach. So Avie Tevanian and the guys from CMU clearly deserve credit: the putative OS should be the GNU/Mach System in order to give credit to its principal designers...) I would want to suggest that in fact Australians speak English, and to discuss the history and origin of Australia. And it would be just as off-topic if you were discussing the history and origins of Australia on this mailing list as it is for you to be insisting that folks refer free software _your_ way here... Now now, you are sailing close to Godwin's law :-) Apparently, you've never met an actual cell phone customer. Your sales-droid would have lost them a third of the way into the second sentence. Remember: by definition, half of the folks out there are of below average intelligence. They still buy cell phones. You should drop this, and stick to the subject matter of the mailing list: the FIC phone and the OpenMoko platform. As others have pointed out, you're reducing the signal-to-noise ratio with this. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On Jan 22, 2007, at 3:28 PM, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: So when you put your first python application on, ipkg will conclude you need python. When you put your second on, it will conclude you've alrady got python. Sure. So in that case it does make sense to talk about standard versions of each interpreter, and to not talk about a standard interpreter. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
OpenMoko at FOSDEM
It seems we are a few who are going to FOSDEM in Brussels this year. I suggest we have an informal gathering. Where? When? Ideas? Put them here on the list or update http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/AtFOSDEM /Ole ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
* Ted Lemon [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070122 23:21]: On Jan 22, 2007, at 2:49 PM, Andra? 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: Personaly by default there should be none. And let the user decide what he wants. For example I prefer ruby over perl, lua or python and I like using bash scripts for a lot of stuff. So having lua on my system would be more or less pointless as I don't use it myself. I want to agree with this, but I'd like to point out one small problem with it: if you have an app written in one of these languages, you have to install the whole interpreter anyway. And god forbid you should have two apps, both of which are written with the same interpreter, both of which install their own (possibly conflicting) version of it. conflicting versions of interpreters are quite seldom, at least in Python-land. (That's perhaps because python has some community processes that let's the developers know what will be enabled in the next version, new keywords/syntax need normally imports from __future__ *g*, e.g. taking a look at python 2.5 I can know what keywords/changes will be enabled by default in 2.6) So in order to agree with this, we nevertheless have to talk about the problem: how do we ensure that if an end-user wants to run an app written in python, and another written in ruby, and a third written in python, that they get exactly two interpreters installed on their Neo, and not three? Python usually is pretty well back-wards compatible. In Unix-practice one just distributes the scripts/modules and uses the python that is installed on the box. Guess the same thing applies more or less to Ruby, albeit it's not yet standard on that many distributions as Python. There are a couple of ways to solve this problem, but the point is that if you just leave it open and let nobody solve it, you may wind up with an unpalatable result for the end-user. And the result for the end-user is important - if the Neo is only useful to geeks, it can't accomplish its stated goals. ipkg install python = you get the standard python and that's it. Andreas ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
I couldn't agree more. I can't wait to get my hands on one of these phones. More importantly I can't wait to tell Bell Mobility that im switching over to Rogers HEH. The best part is that neither carrier will be able to stop me from writing warez for this phone and all future OpenMokos. On 1/22/07, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Milan Votava writes: It's time now to get something back. It would be nice for a community developer to get a share of the company each time he/she makes a new 'selling' application :-) I've gotten *so* *much* from the free software community already that any piddling contributions I can give in return are only a tiny payback. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On Tuesday 23 January 2007 00:30, Gervais Mulongoy wrote: The best part is that neither carrier will be able to stop me from writing warez for this phone and all future OpenMokos. You're lucky it isn't a Windows mobile phone, or you'd have your phones and email tapped by the FBI if you posted that on the manufacturer's website ;o) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re:OpenMoko at FOSDEM
Ole Tange writes: It seems we are a few who are going to FOSDEM in Brussels this year. I suggest we have an informal gathering. Where? When? Ideas? Have a drink for me... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
Ted Lemon writes: On Jan 22, 2007, at 3:28 PM, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: So when you put your first python application on, ipkg will conclude you need python. When you put your second on, it will conclude you've alrady got python. Sure. So in that case it does make sense to talk about standard versions of each interpreter, and to not talk about a standard interpreter. Different, but equally valid questions. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 1/22/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It simply never ends, does it? One can hope :-) Next time I get another argument on this subject in my inbox, I'm going to simply email this back-to-sender, not the entire list: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Debate-GNU-Linux Thus hopefully, we can get back to the fun and interesting stuff! Of course, it may be vandalised, or 'improved' upon, but I'm also not going to touch that page again, so go ahead! Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: built-in scripting languages
On 1/22/07, Derek Pressnall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On a different (but related) track, I've always wanted to have a web browser that was capable of executing local cgi scripts without the need for client-side http server. Pah! Internet Explorer has had that for *ages*. But for non-windows, this might come a closer depending upon your need: http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/ As your server-side java classes can be shared with a client-side java app. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
