Re: Screenshots? (was: Balancing simplicity with complexity)
Then make sure that the system does never respond slowly! ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Clarify openmoko != Neo1973
On Saturday 25 August 2007 00:52:48 Dylan McCall wrote: Openmoko.org's front page could show more than one smartphone running the system, or screenshots of it without any hardware visible. That may magically get the point across... Then you will have people buying a Motorola A1200 only to come here and complain it doesn't run OpenMoko when they get it... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Clarify openmoko != Neo1973
Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: On Saturday 25 August 2007 00:52:48 Dylan McCall wrote: Openmoko.org's front page could show more than one smartphone running the system, or screenshots of it without any hardware visible. That may magically get the point across... Then you will have people buying a Motorola A1200 only to come here and complain it doesn't run OpenMoko when they get it... That's easy. 'Here's Motorola's email address'. :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: WiFi vs. speaker
Hi. Giles, your criticism is constructive and good so it leads to better device development. But there are some points that I don't agree. Giles Jones pisze: Port layout seemingly done at random, poor layout. USB/power connector better at bottom of device. No chance since there are antennas on both sides of device. Battery removal could be easier. I don't have such problem. Everytime I remove back cover (with pain in my figers :( and that's the real problem) the battery almost pops out by it's own will... Maybe we have slightly different phones. Memory card under the SIM card (why? there's seemingly loads of space). If there would be USB2 there will be no need to remove SD card much often. But still SD will be removed more often that SIM card, so maybe it should be somewhere else. Some phones had a SIM card slot directly in case like laptops have SD slots (if they have). Maybe Neo can have SD slot at the side of case. 2.5mm audio jack (use 3.5mm like Nokia N95 to get mp3 marketshare) True, but remember about microphone and fourth pin in phones' jack. Power button location (location towards top is better, mine's also a bit sticky/spongey). It doesn't bother me much but it's hard to push. We bought also white-orange Neo and my colleagues have used pen (sic!) to push it and there are some blue marks on button because of this. Aux button looks like IR port (does it have any use outside of the bootloader?) The same thought about black Neos but white one have this button white also so it's not confusing. GSM antenna is at bottom of phone, should be at top of phone. At the top there is a GPS antenna which *SHOULD* be there and that because GSM went on bottom. Best regards, -- *Bartlomiej Zdanowski* Programmer Product Research Development Department AutoGuard Insurance Ltd. Place of registration: Regional Court for the Capital City of Warsaw Registration no.: 029534 Share capital: 1 059 000 PLN Polish VAT and tax ID no.: PL1132219747 Omulewska 27 street 04-128 Warsaw Poland phone +48 22 611 69 23 www.autoguard.pl http://www.autoguard.pl ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: USB Booting from a neo in mass storage mode ?
Ian Stirling pisze: In principle - trivial. In practice - the kernel driver to switch from USB device to host mode isn't yet implemented - it's relatively trivial - but hasn't been done yet. Also currenty not available without external hardware because USB port is not powered. Pendrive would remain dead. It's possible with debug board (v2 at least) because it has powered USB ports. But still not possible because of what Ian wrote. Regards, -- *Bartlomiej Zdanowski* Programmer Product Research Development Department AutoGuard Insurance Ltd. Place of registration: Regional Court for the Capital City of Warsaw Registration no.: 029534 Share capital: 1 059 000 PLN Polish VAT and tax ID no.: PL1132219747 Omulewska 27 street 04-128 Warsaw Poland phone +48 22 611 69 23 www.autoguard.pl http://www.autoguard.pl ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: At the risk of being flamed : State of software
Dnia piątek, 24 sierpnia 2007, wim delvaux napisał: Knowing that the device is now about 6 months late and looking at the overall stability and completeness of the GUI (List of issues is still long perhaps too long ?) I wonder if it would not have been a better solution to put things like QTopia on the phone. The problem with QTopia is that you will get GPL version (so no commercial applications for it) or will force OpenMoko into license payments. To get phone functionality of Qtopia OpenMoko company would have to pay for commercial Qtopia Phone or wrote whole phone subsystem from scratch as there is no phone functionality in Qtopia4/GPL. And if you go into Qtopia world you will get small amount of applications. There was lot of stuff for old Qtopia versions (1.5-2.2) but none of them can be just built for Qtopia4 version (and you do not really want to play with Qtopia 4.x - trust me - I spent over two years with OPIE hacking). So at start all you get is Qtopia4 stuff which is done for devices which have atleast few keys (but probably can be used with touchscreen only too). Forget about syncing PIM data to something other then Qtopia4 Desktop (if it exists), forget about many X11 based applications/games (I know that most of them needs to be adapted to small screen but many of them can be just used). For me, the free community does not need (really) a new GUI library. It needs a good phone ! Our interest lies in having a nicely featured device available so that we hackers can release our creativity and write apps that users like and not - yet again - re-invent the wheel to start all over again. And for what ? For a theme ? For true GPL ? ... For me LGPL is proper license for such device. It allows to write free applications which will use any license (all those hackers which you listed) AND it allows to write commercial stuff. We have GPS on device - how many Linux applications you know which can show you maps and route you from one place to another? I know few: - TomTom Navigator (commercial) - Garmin something (commercial) - Maemo Mapper (can be un-Hildoned, require network connection for routes) I used TomTom on PocketPC device. If there will be version for Neo1973 available I will buy it and will use it. I do not want GPS navigation application which will use OpenStreetMaps or scanned bitmap maps because it lack routing so paper road map is much more handy. If only such apps will exists I will buy PocketPC + TomTom and use Neo as BT-GPS. So what about porting QTopia to the NEO as backup scenario ? Feel free to start. After few days of work you will get Qtopia4 working on Neo1973. Then you will spend lot of time writing Dialer, SMS application and other phone functionality. If you will make it working then someone will follow you. But I do not think that there will be many of them. -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant I do not fear computers. I fear the lack of them. -- Isaac Asimov ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: WiFi vs. speaker
Bartlomiej Zdanowski AutoGuard Ltd. wrote: Hi. Giles, your criticism is constructive and good so it leads to better device development. But there are some points that I don't agree. Giles Jones pisze: Port layout seemingly done at random, poor layout. USB/power connector better at bottom of device. No chance since there are antennas on both sides of device. This isn't strictly required. As I see it, with minimal case redesign only. http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/thumb/6/62/Gta01b_v3_case_top_open_pcb_lift_white.jpg/700px-Gta01b_v3_case_top_open_pcb_lift_white.jpg Shift GPS ceramic antenna 'back' by 5mm or so. Redesign the mainboard to extend up to the top of the case on that side, past the GPS antenna. Mount a right-angle mini-B connector there. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Earliest possible release date for GTA02 - is it past October?
It would be nice to have some information on this. Is it still plausible that if everything falls right, GTA02 can be produced in volume, in time for purchased units to be supplied in volume to developers in October? Or is this now looking unlikely. (We all of course understand that unexpected delays may happen. However, unexpected advances are rarer, so I think this is a reasonable question) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: At the risk of being flamed : State of software
On Sun, 26 Aug 2007, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: Dnia piątek, 24 sierpnia 2007, wim delvaux napisał: Knowing that the device is now about 6 months late and looking at the overall stability and completeness of the GUI (List of issues is still long perhaps too long ?) I wonder if it would not have been a better solution to put things like QTopia on the phone. The problem with QTopia is that you will get GPL version (so no commercial applications for it) or will force OpenMoko into license payments. OpenMoko Neo is a 'free' phone, why would you want to put commercial proprietary software on it? I thought the point of it was to get away from closed source/commercial/proprietary apps. If I minded that, I would just use a Symbian or Windows Mobile phone as apps for those abound. To get phone functionality of Qtopia well, who knows.. if enough people email Trolltech... that could change. OpenMoko company would have to pay for commercial Qtopia Phone or wrote whole phone subsystem from scratch as there is no phone functionality in Qtopia4/GPL. Better than writing the whole shebang from scratch. Why not start with something that is 95% finished, mature, stable and tested. /me shrugs And if you go into Qtopia world you will get small amount of applications. There was lot of stuff for old Qtopia versions (1.5-2.2) but none of them can be just built for Qtopia4 version (and you do not really want to play with Qtopia 4.x - trust me - I spent over two years with OPIE hacking). Nothing wrong with qtopia 2 and Opie... So at start all you get is Qtopia4 stuff which is done for devices which have atleast few keys (but probably can be used with touchscreen only too). Forget about syncing PIM data to something other then Qtopia4 Desktop (if it exists), forget about many X11 based applications/games (I know that most of them needs to be adapted to small screen but many of them can be just used). as can qt4 apps... For me, the free community does not need (really) a new GUI library. It needs a good phone ! Our interest lies in having a nicely featured device available so that we hackers can release our creativity and write apps that users like and not - yet again - re-invent the wheel to start all over again. And for what ? For a theme ? For true GPL ? ... Well, that license does behoove free software... For me LGPL is proper license for such device. It allows to write free applications which will use any license (all those hackers which you listed) AND it allows to write commercial stuff. OpenMoko is touted as a FREE phone with FREE software, not closed source commercial software. Which do you want more of?? We have GPS on device - how many Linux applications you know which can show you maps and route you from one place to another? I know few: well, the neo is currently a developer only phone, so someone could easily write such a best, for whatever gui library. -- Lorn 'ljp' Potter Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: WiFi vs. speaker
On 8/25/07, Bartlomiej Zdanowski AutoGuard Ltd. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Memory card under the SIM card (why? there's seemingly loads of space). If there would be USB2 there will be no need to remove SD card much often. But still SD will be removed more often that SIM card, so maybe it should be somewhere else. Some phones had a SIM card slot directly in case like laptops have SD slots (if they have). Maybe Neo can have SD slot at the side of case. http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community A while back Sean commented on this http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/000385.html seemingly loads of space you mean in the case, or on the PCB? because the PCB looks relatively cramped to me -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: At the risk of being flamed : State of software
Dnia niedziela, 26 sierpnia 2007, Lorn Potter napisał: On Sun, 26 Aug 2007, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: The problem with QTopia is that you will get GPL version (so no commercial applications for it) or will force OpenMoko into license payments. OpenMoko Neo is a 'free' phone, why would you want to put commercial proprietary software on it? I thought the point of it was to get away from closed source/commercial/proprietary apps. OpenMoko Neo gives me possibility to use Free Software which I can hack. But I live in a world where some functionality does not exists in Free Software yet. An example of it is good navigation software - I can accept paying for working commercial one. If I will prefer I will run it in chroot and limited privileges but will get something which will use GPS to something more advanced then just switching profiles based on location. If I minded that, I would just use a Symbian or Windows Mobile phone as apps for those abound. I like to have control over system which I use - thats why I switched from PalmOS into Linux on PDA. To get phone functionality of Qtopia well, who knows.. if enough people email Trolltech... that could change. if.. if.. if.. OpenMoko company would have to pay for commercial Qtopia Phone or wrote whole phone subsystem from scratch as there is no phone functionality in Qtopia4/GPL. Better than writing the whole shebang from scratch. Why not start with something that is 95% finished, mature, stable and tested. /me shrugs Ask OpenMoko core team why they decided to go into GTK instead of Qt or Qtopia. And if you go into Qtopia world you will get small amount of applications. There was lot of stuff for old Qtopia versions (1.5-2.2) but none of them can be just built for Qtopia4 version (and you do not really want to play with Qtopia 4.x - trust me - I spent over two years with OPIE hacking). Nothing wrong with qtopia 2 and Opie... Except that qt2 is fscking old now. I know that qt/e 2.3.13 (or even newer) was released in 2006/2007 but it does not change that it has 7 years now. It is like writing for GTK 1.x - no one normal wants to start with it. For me LGPL is proper license for such device. It allows to write free applications which will use any license (all those hackers which you listed) AND it allows to write commercial stuff. OpenMoko is touted as a FREE phone with FREE software, not closed source commercial software. Which do you want more of?? As I wrote - Free Software but with possibilities to use closed software too. We have GPS on device - how many Linux applications you know which can show you maps and route you from one place to another? I know few: well, the neo is currently a developer only phone, so someone could easily write such a best, for whatever gui library. And one day pigs will fly... -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant Q: What's a light-year? A: One-third less calories than a regular year. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: At the risk of being flamed : State of software
Before I start, I will state that I am absolutely *not* suggesting that OpenMoko move to Qtopia 4 - I simply wish to respond to some of your points. On Sun, 26 Aug 2007, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: There was lot of stuff for old Qtopia versions (1.5-2.2) but none of them can be just built for Qtopia4 version No, you're right, they can't. But I would counter that with the fact that you can't just recompile desktop apps for the phone and expect them to be usable. I know this is not the point you were making but it is something that is quite often touted as a reason for using X on handheld devices. (and you do not really want to play with Qtopia 4.x - trust me - I spent over two years with OPIE hacking). OK, it's not the best for future development, but some of us are still working with Opie and it's not all that bad. Forget about syncing PIM data to something other then Qtopia4 Desktop (if it exists), That's just not true. Do we have a fully working syncing solution for the PIM applications we have now in OpenMoko? Is there any reason why an OpenSync plugin could not be written for a Qtopia 4 based platform? forget about many X11 based applications/games (I know that most of them needs to be adapted to small screen but many of them can be just used). About the only full applications that can be just used are games, and for those, if they are SDL based (as many of them are) they will work fine even without X. It's important not to forget also that many such games will be problematic on the Neo1973 because there are no buttons to speak of. For me LGPL is proper license for such device. It allows to write free applications which will use any license (all those hackers which you listed) AND it allows to write commercial stuff. But after you add closed source software, the phone is not totally free anymore. Don't you see the conflict there? We have GPS on device - how many Linux applications you know which can show you maps and route you from one place to another? I know few: - TomTom Navigator (commercial) - Garmin something (commercial) - Maemo Mapper (can be un-Hildoned, require network connection for routes) You could make the same argument about entire mobile phone platforms - there hasn't been a fully open one yet so there never will be? If anyone here believed that then this project wouldn't have even been started. Cheers, Paul ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: At the risk of being flamed : State of software
For me LGPL is proper license for such device. It allows to write free applications which will use any license (all those hackers which you listed) AND it allows to write commercial stuff. But after you add closed source software, the phone is not totally free anymore. Don't you see the conflict there? Aren't GTK+ and the openmoko libs under the LGPL? According to the wiki openmoko supports development of commercial software. I'm for an open OS, and I think that's a good place for the GPL. That way no one develops a closed source version of openmoko with ATT specific binaries, or whatever. But I'm planning on running skype on my GTA02 one day, so I don't really take the 100% open source position. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: At the risk of being flamed : State of software
On Saturday 25 August 2007 23:10:48 Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: commercial Qtopia Phone or wrote whole phone subsystem from scratch as there is no phone functionality in Qtopia4/GPL. Ahem, they DID write the phone subsystem from scratch anyway AFAIK :) I'm a bit surprised that nobody mentioned the SINGLE reason NOT to use qtopia. Forget all the stories that it's a dirty commercial piece of software from an exploitative company in some conspirational way wants to take your freedom away... GPL is designed to prevent that and it pretty much does. Really. The SOLE reason for not choosing qtopia is that, in order to really and officially contribute to the project, you should in effect transfer copyright to Trolltech (since qtopia could not be available under the dual licensing unless the contributors agreed to it). So you have all your freedoms that you have had with GPL, but Trolltech can also make a buck (krone, that is) through it's own support and sales channels to manufacturers/programmers. That's it. No non-free doubletalk, 'its commercial isnt it', 'no apps for it', etc, there is no practical difference form any other run-of-the-mill GPL project apart from that. I can understand that for being an issue, especially for large companies as FIC (or OpenMoko), and thus the choice is understandable, but the talk of Qt(opia) being 'too much work to adapt', non-GPL/non-free spirited, hard to use, C++ only, nerdy, whatever, they are all excuses. It comes down to this - do you want to deal with Trolltech, which BTW has a competitive product, or keep all the strings and start from scratch, literally making the whole framework and applications with a recognizable brand ? That choice was made in the form of GTK and OpenMoko as a platform, but let's not FUD all over the place that it was a technical issue of not wanting 'writing the phone subsystem from scratch' - it's like saying instead of a replacing a missing door we thought it was easier to build a new house... For me LGPL is proper license for such device. It allows to write free applications which will use any license (all those hackers which you No need to go into deep licensing issues, but LGPL is the thing that should be avoided, isn't it ? I mean, why go through all the trouble of making a free, open phone if you're planning or running proprietary/closed source software on it ? In that case, even a Qt-like dual license is better since at least it brings some income to the core developers. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Convince me NOT to cancel my order.
Why am I not being given the choice to RIGHT NOW to be placed at the FRONT of the GTA02 sales queue? Why dont I have a billion dollars? I really want it and I could really use it... Why am I putting up with all this frustration reading about others who -have- their phones and why should I not just cancel my order?? Seriously, with your already pissed off tone, I would never get this phone. I have one, and now wish I didnt get it. I am not looking for my money back or anything like that, I knew I could be buying a brick and was willing to take that risk.. But the fact is I just dont use it. I would think very early on the focus would be to reliably make and receive calls, which this phone cannot do. If I could use this to simply make and receive calls, I would have it with me and thus be more willing to write stuff for it while I have some down time at work. As it stands now it sits at home. I will have no interest in it until I can make and receive calls. Not make a few calls, then reboot, then receive a call, then reboot, etc... Thats just my opinion tho, so all the linux nuts out there please dont jump down my throat. The only reason I am writing this is so the guy asking the questions will get another point of view.. Dont get me wrong, this phone has tons of potential, but I think others may be in the same situation as me.. And after a few months of it sitting on the shelf, I will forget its there and move onto something else... That is of course if we dont get a reliable dialer in the near future.. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Convince me NOT to cancel my order.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why am I not being given the choice to RIGHT NOW to be placed at the FRONT of the GTA02 sales queue? Why dont I have a billion dollars? I really want it and I could really use it... I'm sure that if you show up with a billion dollars, you will be at the front of the queue :) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Convince me NOT to cancel my order.
You all do not understand the concept of a development release - and maybe you never will. Everybody who ordered knew what he would get, everybody had the possibility to check what will work and what will not. Sorry guys, but please just shut up. (P.S. To not casting a damning light on FIC or OpenMoko: I'm not affiliated to both.) 2007/8/26, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why am I not being given the choice to RIGHT NOW to be placed at the FRONT of the GTA02 sales queue? Why dont I have a billion dollars? I really want it and I could really use it... Why am I putting up with all this frustration reading about others who -have- their phones and why should I not just cancel my order?? Seriously, with your already pissed off tone, I would never get this phone. I have one, and now wish I didnt get it. I am not looking for my money back or anything like that, I knew I could be buying a brick and was willing to take that risk.. But the fact is I just dont use it. I would think very early on the focus would be to reliably make and receive calls, which this phone cannot do. If I could use this to simply make and receive calls, I would have it with me and thus be more willing to write stuff for it while I have some down time at work. As it stands now it sits at home. I will have no interest in it until I can make and receive calls. Not make a few calls, then reboot, then receive a call, then reboot, etc... Thats just my opinion tho, so all the linux nuts out there please dont jump down my throat. The only reason I am writing this is so the guy asking the questions will get another point of view.. Dont get me wrong, this phone has tons of potential, but I think others may be in the same situation as me.. And after a few months of it sitting on the shelf, I will forget its there and move onto something else... That is of course if we dont get a reliable dialer in the near future.. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Convince me NOT to cancel my order.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why am I not being given the choice to RIGHT NOW to be placed at the FRONT of the GTA02 sales queue? Why dont I have a billion dollars? I really want it and I could really use it... Why don't I get respect from a company I'm trying to support at my expense? I really want it and I could really use it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Earliest possible release date for GTA02 - is it past October?
See http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-August/009491.html On 8/25/07, Ian Stirling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice to have some information on this. Is it still plausible that if everything falls right, GTA02 can be produced in volume, in time for purchased units to be supplied in volume to developers in October? Or is this now looking unlikely. (We all of course understand that unexpected delays may happen. However, unexpected advances are rarer, so I think this is a reasonable question) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: external SD slot
If there would be USB2 there will be no need to remove SD card much often. But still SD will be removed more often that SIM card, so maybe it should be somewhere else. Some phones had a SIM card slot directly in case like laptops have SD slots (if they have). Maybe Neo can have SD slot at the side of case. I'd love to see an external SD slot on some model eventually. Swapping things at runtime without rebooting would be great, especially once you start using it as an MP3 player too. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
